Great video! Today, some people that hand load shotgun shells use plugs in hollow based slugs to prevent the wad from getting blown up into the cavity and destroyed. These plugs are often made of "toilet paper puree", just TP and water mixed to a thick pulp and packed in the base, then allowed to dry, or placed in the oven at about 350F till dry(bonus: the slug gets annealed with this method). Not the same primary purpose, but still plugs in bases in non-historic modern ammo. Keep up the good work.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

I never knew that! Learned something new. If it works, it works!

@joearledge

Жыл бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 Not sure how much you watch the Taufledermous channel, but he shows it on there with a few slugs. I think one of the ones he shows it with might be a .69 cal Delvine-Burton-Mine bullet that they fire from a 12GA, surprisingly precise and stable in flight compared to other 12GA slugs

@joearledge

Жыл бұрын

@@lurch789 depends on if they were water dropped or air cooled. Either way, it doesn't hurt in this application.

@epichistorymaker1888

9 ай бұрын

Can you make over powder wads that way?

@joearledge

9 ай бұрын

@@epichistorymaker1888 If you really want to. They would be more like fiber cushion wads. The easiest way to make over powder or over shot wads is to get an arts and crafts hole punch(0.75" for 12GA) and just punch them out of thin cardboard, like a cereal box or something. Obviously you need whatever size punch fits what you're making wads for. For 12Ga, I use a 1"X1" square paper towel "patch" for my over powder wad. Just center it up on the hull mouth and put whatever is next(shot wad/cup, cork, fiber wad, ect...) on top of the patch and load it in the hull like loading a patched round ball in a muzzle loader. It doesn't take up any room in the hull, it's cheap(nearly free, or free if you take napkins or paper towels from somewhere), it's gone before it leave the barrel, and it doesn't interfere with the skirt functioning on the shot wad/cup. See Bubba Rountree Outdoors videos for the "paper towel patch" and other great shotgun reloading stuff. If you're doing muzzle loader or BP cartridges, the correct size punch and thin cardboard, felt, or cork are usually best. I use felt over powder wads in muzzle loader, but whatever you like should be just fine. If you really really want to use the TP-pulp fiber-wad idea, there are multiple ways to do it. You could make sheets out of the pulp, however thick you want, then punch out the wads when it's dry. Or, you could use something with the proper diameter as a mold, and make them however thick you want. See taufledermouse videos to see the TP-pulp in use. Hope that helps, good luck.

These videos make me so happy. I love the scholarly research of the progression of ideas.

Very interesting video. I never knew that there was so much backstory to the development of the Minie ball. The cut away from the pillar rifle was an excellent cut scene.

Wow...fascinating stuff...I had no idea this subject even existed. Keep up the good work. Hi from Australia.

Liked and subbed. The world needs more in depth work like this.

I found your information about old guns and ammo super interesting and I Thank You Most Kindly! I have a Hawken replica 50 cal. But my favorite is my N. Starr 1829 69cal. Army issue I restored years ago. I have the original ram rod and bayonet and everything is stamped US. Along the line most likely in the 1840s from what I’ve researched, the military converted it to cap and ball. It shoots amazingly well and I use .620 ball at present. I had a gunsmith check and clean the bore, which wasn’t too bad for sitting a hundred years or more. It was found in a closet by a friends mother when she was 10, about a century ago, in a house being torn down in Delaware. The barrel was bent slightly and I straightened it out using the wooden vice on my old work bench. I’m a cabinetmaker by trade and with the vice and some wooden wedges it came out just fine. Walnut stock and a brass insert where it was converted. I do wish it was still flintlock but historically it’s just fine. According to research most all guns and rifles available were put into service during the Civil War. So this gun was only 32 years old when Sumpter was fired upon. Sure has a strong spring! Can’t break in combat I suppose but it takes a manly pull to cock it. I live about 65 miles east of Gettysburg, which has always been a favorite place to visit. My GGGrandfather volunteered for three term in the Calvary and one of the battles he fought was Antietam. My Grandfather was supposed to inherit his sword, medal and papers but upon his death in 1912 someone grabbed everything. My Grandfather was 20 years old then. I do have his picture my Grandfather took in 1909 or 10 sitting in his rocker on his porch. I have his rocker which I restored. Well I do believe I’ve buttoned quite enough and Thank You Again! I’ve subscribed! Many Blessings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoy the channel and feel free to stop my the shop the next time you’re in town! 262 Baltimore St.

Huzzah Brett. Great presentation of a complex mix of history and mechanics. The British also found the wooden or clay plug to keep the bullets in shape for their need to ship them around the world in all sea states and rumbling hundreds of miles in wooden bullock carts etc. before them tumbling about in the soldier’s pouches for days and weeks. More an incidental benefit than a planned one. It displays the difference between a military need and a target shooter’s. The Burton style can be made to be more accurate than the Pritchett style but only when hand fitted to size. An overview of the Austrian rifle musket compression bullet and why it was replaced in service would be good to hear but is a digression from your ACW theme. Also the French/Belgian/Russian etc. rifle musket bullets, but that is an ask too far I dare say. Well done.

@robertstallard7836

Жыл бұрын

Hi John, I think Brett might be up for the challenge ref your assertion that "The Burton style can be made to be more accurate than the Pritchett style..." as one of his recent videos will testify! Hopefully, you've spurred him on to give it another go. I just love shooting these. I do cheat a bit, though, and make the internal powder cylinder out of stiff plastic tube as that makes it a little easier to push the bullet down into the bore and snap it off than does a card one. They're also re-useable.

Funny - we used to collect bullets and the Williams bullet was called a "cleaner" and was thought to be used to help scrape out the barrel - you learn something every day - thank you

That was a very interesting fantastic presentation. I also find the geometry of rifle bullets of this era a fascinating topic as well.

@martingindulis5310

23 күн бұрын

man, you just love to talk, don't you.

Reminds me of the little plastic ball in the back of Federal’s TruBall 12 gauge slugs

A bit long and windy but I learned something I didn't know!

Only shot the .5775s. Can’t wait to try the .574s to see how really different it is!

That is very interesting, especially in general terms about technology that adapts to the precision available.

The theory at the time was that the plugged bullets scraped the bore clean. Every few shots the soldier was supposed to load a plugged bullet.

@calvingreene90

11 ай бұрын

That is an effect but it was designed not to leave hard residew in the first place.

Excellent job once again Brett!!

And speaking of plugs, you should plug that amazing book of yours more in your videos. It is an exceptional wealth of information and one I have read several times to absorb the data. Plug that rascal and the others you wrote as well! Place a link in the video description to your website, where viewers can purchase the books.

Love your Austrian Lorenz in the back ground. I'm liking the vid for that alone.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Soon… soooon…

@Cantz501

Жыл бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 You should talk about the 58 cal and 54 cal. I have a 58 lorenz myself and I love using it at civil reenactments.

@johnfisk811

Жыл бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 Huzzah!

No boredom here, really interesting and well presented reasoning for the plug/cup bullet. I'd seen them in museums, had guessed why, but wasn't sure you have both the history and the practical experience.

That was utterly fascinating. Thanks!

Excellent talk on the impact of something as simple as a bit of wood or ceramic on history.

Excellent videos! Very accurate. Keep up with your videos!

Well, some just like a plug.

Great content as always.

I have several black powder revolvers and love them. I've been shooting them for over three decades but I would kill to get my hands on a Civil War era reproduction rifle. The problem is the price point. I appreciate videos like this because you have done research so one day I may be able to use this to my advantage. Well done!

@JCDenton3

7 күн бұрын

Just keep looking, especially on strange places or for names that are slightly off of what it should be. I just got my Enfield reproduction for $700, brand new with bayonet. A guy had it hanging on the wall in his cabin for the last 30 years, never shot it. It was advertised locally for $500 but I felt bad stealing it at that price! 😅

Could you boost your mic gain slightly? I normally keep my volume set to 35 for KZread, but on your video's I have to increase it to 60 to hear you clearly. And I really appreciate all the information your are presenting. I do have a small question, I saw an old brass .73 cal Minie ball mould at an estate sale, the patent date on it was 1871. Have you ever seen one of those before?

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I noticed it after the upload finished, that the audio is way too low. I am still figuring this stuff out. Until recently I was still using my iPhone microphone! Next time I think it will be much better.

@greylocke100

Жыл бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 Thank you.

Educational and interesting. Thank you.

Fascinating video. Thanks.

😅When a mosquito lands on your balls you undesrtand that violence is not always the answer -sun tzu: the art of war thunder

So educational, many thanks.

I enjoyed this video Brett, also I have taken notes to hopefully improve my results in the sport of military muzzle loaders. Many years or decades of trial and error.

Very useful .Thanks

I got an IDEA from one of the other community channels "I will Try" I will fill My Minie's skirts in their paper cartridges with "my DIY bore butter" as grease will flow under gas expansion but Not Compress in size similar to a historic wooden plug? "I Think?". This will lead to fast loads as if the ball is against the charge once tapped home easily, it's done, and it will drop down easily, "I Hope?" I noted the historic "Plugs" did Not all touch the Inside of their cone. As a hydraulics and other tech, this will cause desired effects on the obturation of the lead skirts! The plug with or Without an air gap would become an inside out driving band sealing the gasses while grabbing the rifling, causing better ranges, accuracy, and consistency with less powder and lower production costs using the easily available tech of this period. "I think" a grease plug will help with fouling? or make it Worse? Can't wait to try! Thanks for the Info! and Ideas!

@davefellhoelter1343

Жыл бұрын

@@lurch789 this why it's a trial, never know till "I Know?" I have OJT with all the elements and Hydrostatic testing.

And today some bullet manufacturers stuff plastic in the hollow FRONT of the bullet. 🙃

Very insightful.

I absolutely love black powder era guns but I would apreaciate a video testing in ballistic gel as not many people know damage the slugs can cause I fired few guns myself some real shoulder thumper too no pain no gain lol greetings from uk 🇬🇧👍🦊🐾

@jessejames7757

10 ай бұрын

There are lot's of videos testing the damage and there is medical records from the civil war describing the damage.

Well. Once again amazing info. And I’m only halfway through.

Absolutely fascinating video. I ordered some Pritchet style bullets from you roughly six months ago. I have not had a chance to get down to the range and try them. I'm really looking forward to it though. I live and Enola Pennsylvania near Harrisburg. I had asked you about using wooden plugs and you had mentioned to see if they work in my Springfield. I will be sure to let you know. Thank you again for such a great video. On another side note, my rifle is a reproduction. The bore has some piting and rust (my improper storage 15 years ago). I would like to know your view on either fire lapping the barrel or having it rebored.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Shoot it first and see what it does before you try any aggressive cleaning efforts or consider getting it relined. I have some rifles with moderate pitting and they still shoot with surprising accuracy. The worst places for pitting is at the breech or at the muzzle. A few dark spots midway down the bore may not cause too much trouble. Then again, they might. Sometimes pitting will want to rip the paper off patched bullets. Only way to know is to try it.

@Dv087

Жыл бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 I will definitely try them before taking any drastic measures. Thank you for the advice. The pitting I have noticed is halfway down the barrel.

It is my understanding that the avg. engagement distance between American Civil War infantrymen was 70 to 100 yards. In addition most infantrymen whether Union or Confederate were not well trained in marksmanship. Therefore the potential increase in accuracy and/or range of the rifled musket over the smooth bore was largely irrelevant because of inadequate training and resulting close engagement distances.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

You are absolutely correct. They slugged it out up close because of the lack of training. Even so, there was an inexplicable optimism in the Ordnance Department, which kept assuming that training programs would somehow (magically?) be implemented and soldiers would become better long distance shots, so they kept producing rifles and ammo for long range.

Very interesting thank you.

Excellent video. I have 2 Snider Rifles with different bore sizes. The long rifle is smaller diameter and the carbine is larger. I found that using wooden plugs in a minie bullet that has been compressed/swaged to a larger diameter is extremely accurate in the Carbine @50 yards in 24 ga. brass hulls. After watching this video, I hope to try the same in the long rifle which is very accurate using a .585 round ball in 24 ga. cheddite hulls. Buying a .585 minie bullet mould and handles is so expensive as to be prohibitive for me, so I will use my .578 mould with wooden plugs, but not swaged to a larger size, and also swaged + a wooden plug as a test for comparison.

@robertstallard7836

11 ай бұрын

Interesting! I use solid-base .60 bullets cast in a mould from Martyn Robinson of X-Ring Services. The moulds are excellent quality and cast well. Price is $85.00 plus $4.50 postage within the USA, or $15 for international. I don't really know Martyn (although we have met) but I can certainly vouch for the bullets produced by his moulds.

Great show. You give out some interesting data on your shows. I've been watching you channel for about six months. The question I have for you is: Where did you get that Ordnance insignia you have sewn to your kepi? I am a retired Ordnance Chief Warrant Officer 3 and I want one for my cap when I go out to a SASS Match. Keep up the Good work.

Great video. Hollow based bullets recently made my life a lot easier. I have a 1877 colt DA in 41colt. Since i load 38 colt with hollow base bullets in my colt navy conversion. Long story short I bought a cylinder for the 1877 that was in for 38 Colt. But the barrel is in 41colt .386. The bullets expanded perfectly from .357 to .386. So just by changing a cylinder I can shoot two different calibers through this revolver.

I grew up down south, and my families have or had a 'family cannon' and old flintlocks, mostly hand me downs. What I was told, was, hand cast lead rifle bullets can be crumbly, or brittle, and could fall apart on firing resulting in just a cloud of lead to come out. They found that a wooden plug, a very compressible material, could buffer the explosion of the powder and help the bullet to hold together.

Quite interesting!

I didn’t think this would ever end .

Default sound levels are pretty badly mixed, partly due to KZread encoding. Found a way to make it audible eventually. Otherwise I love the content.

Thank You. Knowledge for the sake of Knowledge.

Good stuff for us gun nerds.

How did any slight off-centeredness of the plug after firing affect accuracy? It would seem that even the slightest off-centeredness of the plug would ruin stability.

Why do have many Bulltes paper wrappings directly to the Bullet and why do many people refuse to adapt them in recreating the cartridges as you do with the vertterli rifle?

What music is that in the intro of your videos? That’s the same tune used in the new york central film, the railroad signal.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Curzon, March of the Bowman

So... would it be accurate to compare the plugs of 19th century bullets to the polymer tips of modern Hornady bullets? The polymer isn't (strictly) necessary for expansion, but it does aid expansion while also ensuring the expansion is regular?

To make them expand to grip the rifling.

Hey Brett, I've written you an email about this but I guess I ask here too. While reading your fantastic book "The English Cartridge" I came across you mentioning Fidelity-brand onion skin paper made in Germany on page 242 (Appendix). As I am too reconstructing historical cartidges for my own shooting, I'm in constant search for a better paper. However, whilst immediately looking up the paper you mentioned I was unable to find it under "Fidelity onion skin paper" or under its possible german name (I live in Germany so it would be ideal for me). Could you give me the exact product name or something along that line?

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

This is where I get it. Hopefully it lets me post the link. www.thepapermillstore.com/paper-mills/the-paper-mill-store/fidelity-onion-skin

@CrimeVid

Жыл бұрын

If I remember rightly, one iteration of the .455 Webley ammunition had wooden cores, for a different reason. It obviously worked because the Geneva Convention killed it !

@HzgtSM

Жыл бұрын

​@@papercartridges6705I suspected you used that. Thank you! Now just need to find a local supplier. Its tricky as the "normal" cotton paper that people use for paper cartridges is to thick for the 13,9mm family of rifles. (I know the one you linked is wood pulp but we know that finding~10lbs cotton paper is nearly impossible)

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Sometimes you can find a small lot of old rag typewriter paper on eBay or Etsy in the states. I’ve also known people to buy old deteriorated original books, to cannibalize for paper patches.

@chaimafaghet7343

Жыл бұрын

@@CrimeVid You're probably thinking of some conflation of .303 Mk.VII and its light aluminium/wood/whatever's handy and cheap tip filler (tail heavy for accuracy, violently unstable when it hits something), .303 Mk.III the very unpleasant hollow point that made continental types cry, and .455 Mk.III the flying ashtray that suffered a similar fate.

Hello Sir, I have a Pedersoli Enfield P58 in .577 and NOE bullet mould for .550 Enfield bullets. Haven't shot it until today because in Germany you have limited ranges where shooting with black powder is allowed. At the moment I am prepparing some P1861 Enfield cartridges for storage. Should I make them with the clay plug or does the .550 Bullet also work in rilfed muskets made on modern maschiens? I am asking because making of that clay plugs is not that easy. The dried plug has to be fired and burned to be hard enough to spread the bullet. What's your opionion? Greeting from Bavaria/Germany .... Johnny

Great video! However the information on the Williams bullet was a bit incorrect. The plunger in the base of the bullet held three, concaved, zinc washers. Upon discharge the plunger would flatten the washers, forcing them to take the rifling. The bullet was not meant to expand. The side effect of the washers was to scrape powder fouling from the rife barrel. Maybe a new video on the Williams "cleaner" bullet may be called for?

@papercartridges6705

10 ай бұрын

I did a video on Ministry for History channel. You're *very* close about the Williams. There were three types. The first type had two (not three) concave discs (though to be fair, his actual patent did say there could be one, two, three, or five, but the version sold to the US government had two). Those flattened like you said, but their purpose was to trap all the propellant gas. The bullet did expand. Type 2 and 3 added the T shaped pin plunger, that forced the bullet to expand mechanically, similar to the wooden plugs used in English bullets. The purpose of the washers and pin etc were never primarily to scrape any fouling; Williams never touts them as such in his patents, or his correspondence with the War Department. But because the bullet expanded much faster than the old regulation bullet, they kept more of the barrel clean, leading to the "cleaner bullet" misnomer that endures today.

Interesting very interesting.

You have expansion mixed up with windage ,but after a few minutes I figured it out. In all good Vedic👍

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

It all makes sense in my head! But what comes out as words… all bets are off.

Ok, might plug be useful with the constant depth rifling in the Italian 1861’s??

@papercartridges6705

6 ай бұрын

With the Italian shallow rifling, it’s more trial and error to see what each particular gun will (or will not) shoot well. There doesn’t seem to be any consistent solution. A Pritchett with a plug worked good in my Italian rifle but not my friends.

Brett, a question: I've heard and i can't remember where .... that the un-plugged Civil War bullets generated less muzzle velocity than equivalent plugged bullets, because the expanding gasses of shooting took longer to expand the un-plugged projectile. I also see service charge velocities all over the place, with Union Springfield loads quoted as avout a thousand FPS, and Imperial British Enfield liads as about 1400 FPS. Please advise your opinion of all this. Great video, i really enjoy your clear explanations that cut through the jingoistic nonsense. Cheers, Gus

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Plug bullets do expand faster and tend to have higher velocities, partly due to capturing more of the propellant gas, but primarily because (with a few exceptions) they were shot using a paper patch. This meant they could be kicked up to higher velocities without leaving a smear of lead streaked down the barrel. Essentially they were doing the same thing the copper jacket on a modern bullet does. The P/53 Enfield had a velocity of 1265, against 950 to 1000 with the Springfield.

@gussie88bunny

Жыл бұрын

@papercartridges6705 ah right, I understand now. Thank you for explaining that. Did the patched bullets have those drag- inducing grooves also? Or were they smooth-sided?

@robertstallard7836

11 ай бұрын

@@gussie88bunny They were smooth-sided. The anti-fouling mix (beswax and tallow, or later just beeswax) was on the outside of paper that encased the bullet. It was important not to get any on the bullet itself (or have it soak through the paper to the bullet) lest the paper stick to it on exiting the barrel, affecting accuracy. The paper had slits cut into it so that on exiting the muzzle it opened up like the petals of a flower and fell away. I shoot them a lot and you can find the paper remnants just a few yards in front of you after firing.

@gussie88bunny

11 ай бұрын

@robertstallard7836 thanks for that info. I assumed the paper patch unravelled on exit due to it being counter-rolled onto the bullet v the rifling spin. Glad to learn more, cheers

I've followed up your original videos . Really enjoyed you books so keep up the good work. It's easier in the uk to use Pyrodex as to use black powder one needs an exposive permit which entails various special rules for storage etc.

@colinarmstrong1892

10 ай бұрын

Yet probably easier to get black powder than Pyrodex, and the license is free

❤

I'm sure you've been asked or covered this but, what about the Gardner?

@papercartridges6705

8 ай бұрын

I’m working on having a mold made, and a press to make the Gardner cartridges. When I’m back from deployment I will try to do a video.

Do you make the plugs, if so how?

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

A friend turns them from hardwood dowels for me.

uhm, micrometer was invented and used in the late 1700s, iirc British museum has one credited to Newton

@papercartridges6705

10 ай бұрын

Yes and even earlier than that. But that was when they were first invented. It was 1844 when Whitworth revolutionized engineering and manufacturing with his micrometer, which was relatively cheap to produce and was available to the factory workman on a large scale.

@najroe

10 ай бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 ah, yes, that i can agree with.

Bulleit! 😂😊🤤

Very informative video. I do have one question though is there any advantage of a clay plug over a wood plug? The last time I received Pritchet cartridges from you (some time ago) they had clay plugs. One of these days I'll have to stop by the shop as I'm only 45 minutes away.

@johnfisk811

Жыл бұрын

Cheapness if making them in industrial quantities.Also free of changes in size and shape with changes in temperature and humidity. The British clay plugs were not fired but made from sintered fired clay powder, baked but not at firing temperatures.

@robertstallard7836

Жыл бұрын

Historically, it was cheapness and the relative scarcity of boxwood as opposed to clay powder. If you're making them yourself, "clay" is by far the easiest route. Unless you like whittling little plugs out of hardwood! I use Milliput, the UK equivalent of Magic Sculpt (USA), a two-part epoxy filler that sets nice and hard.

@johnfisk811

Жыл бұрын

@@lurch789 They changed from wood to clay and the clay was sintered and baked hard before use.

@robertstallard7836

Жыл бұрын

@@lurch789 First they tried hemispherical metal cups (basically the Minie system that the Burton bullet is so often misnamed after). They tended to fall out or go into the cavity askew, so they changed to more of a thimble-shape and then moved on to wood as it was easier and cheaper. It was then, after the hardest wood they could find commonly available (boxwood) began to get expensive, they changed to sintered clay. The clay was in powder form and was compressed to form the plugs which were then baked to make them very hard. The plug is in a cavity that is longer than the plug itself, so it moves forward into a void. That then causes the trailing edge of the plug (the widest edge) to leave a short "cylinder" of lead behind it, expanded into the rifling. In addition, the lead in front is also expanded, but by upsetting as the soft lead deforms as the bullet overcomes its inertia. For an exaggerated example, think of a ball of soft modelling clay on the table. You hit it sideways with a hammer. The ball will squash outwards, forming a sort of hemispherical disc shape, before it moves forward.

It’s not at all useful to me to watch these videos but I can’t seem to stop myself.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

I say the same thing, but about making them.

"Clever Americans and backward Europeans"... But not clever enaugh to create the Minié ball.

you need to be louder

a 30 minute video on a 3 minute subject.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

That should be the motto for my channel.

Get to the point. You blather on too much.

What a complete waste of time.

Thank you, most informative.