The sheer difficulty of SEEING a man sized target at 600 yards, let alone aiming and hitting them, cannot be understated. Under ideal conditions at the range, with iron sites, that 300 meter target is really hard to hit. I always accepted I was going to miss at least three exposures (the 300 meter target) and saved those rounds as back up for closer ones on the pop up range. There's also a distinct lack of flatness to the world. I think many people underestimate just how rolling and undulating the field at Gettysburg that Pickett's Charge traversed. The attackers disappeared from the view of Union soldiers several times as they made their way across. It's really easy for a lot of folks to imagine a battlefield of this time period was a bunch of football fields with a few bushes or a fence or two scattered about. And then there's the massive rolling clouds of smoke.

@robertstallard7836

Жыл бұрын

You're correct about the difficulty of seeing an individual soldier at 600 yards. However (apart from rare exceptions such as Sharpshooters) it would be formations or guns that were engaged with rifles at that distance. As for undulating ground - yes, indeed. However, a skilled unit commander would choose areas on the advance where the enemy was visible, determine the ranges, and have his men engage for the period of time they were traversing them.

Props for saying you qualified as marksman. No one on KZread qualifies below expert and when they get out no one shoots over 0.75 MOA groups even with their sidearm.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

It was an eye opening experience because I thought I knew how to shoot.

@goldenhide

Жыл бұрын

Right? It happens. I probably was well on my way to an Expert in Marine Boot. The miserable, cold, rainy day prior to Qual I'd shot an easy Expert. The day of: I got inside my own head and threw myself into a Marksman. My first annual qual in the Fleet, I got an Expert. The coach running my section of the line was very good and constantly assisting his shooters, and I happily remarked to him on Qual Day that I'd shot an Expert. "You know why? Because you didn't give a f***." Relaxation and keeping calm are amazingly key to precision shooting.

@glenlivett78

Жыл бұрын

@@goldenhide I can relate to nearly that whole story about thinking you knew what's what at basic, I grew up hunting and my dad did train me pretty well, I even did pretty well on my pre quals but come the day... I got rattled and didn't listen to what the Drill Sergeants had taught us and got marksman. I did 8 years active as an Infantryman and never served with anyone who "Always shot expert." But I sure have been told by every "Vet" at the Bar that they never failed to go 40 for 40.

@Bhartrampf

Жыл бұрын

@@glenlivett78 interesting, I served 11 yrs and knew a few who always shot expert, but these were guys that also shoot a lot on their off time. Not 40 out of 40, but anywhere in the four point range. I only served with one guy who shot 40 every time, but he was a presidents 100 guy. I served early 80's to mid ninties, before computer games, so that may have had something to do with it.

@glenlivett78

Жыл бұрын

@@Bhartrampf DOn't get me wrong I knew a lot of great shooters in the army, and by the time I was an E4 I usually shot 37-39 and pulled the occasional 40, But I also pulled the occasional 29, My First Sergeant in the 82nd was one of the finest soldiers and shooters I ever met, and I watched him pull a 32 one day... We gave him a wide berth the rest of that day.

The first volley is the only volley in which a soldier using a black powder rifle has a clear view of his target. Even today most soldiers can't reliably hit targets beyond 300 yards under the pressure of combat. It makes sense then to withhold the first volley until the distance is short enough for the majority of soldiers to aim reliably.

@johnfisk811

10 ай бұрын

Quite so, but in the period assaults made by large groups close together and the accuracy of trained soldiers with rifle muskets would place the shot around the area of the mass of attackers at far greater ranges. So, with both the troops trained to use the sights and the officers to estimate range, fire at over 300 yards was still effective fire. Post rifle musket and in breech loading times, the Ottomans at Plevna were able to maintain an effective rifle fire with their Peabody Martini Henrys at a mile, which the Russians and Romanians had to endure for their whole advance. All of this only highlights the deficiencies in training of troops and officer in the ACW and demonstrates the correctness of Brett’s view in the video. As to how the ACW armies might have managed such lengthy and rigorous training is another matter. A fag packet calculation suggests that it would take at least two years to train the trainers and then the troops and officers to an adequate standard and effective numbers. Not to mention the expenditure of horrendous amounts of ammunition, plus ensuring matching good ammunition was so allocated. Meanwhile, with their third hand in their copious spare time, someone has to hold off the enemy forces as best they might. Politically and logistically a potential disaster for a levee en masse with negligible existing guiding staff and an industry not yet up to the task.

@vgahren

10 ай бұрын

True, but then there’s that much less time to reload. Commanders have been trying to find that delicate balance since 1775.

@MajorCoolD

8 ай бұрын

@@vgahren Even before I'd reckon. Also we should keep in mind that while today we are talking about individual targets, back then it was more often than not formations firing at formations. You arent shooting at an individual person and by that metric targets of the size of 100+ men in 3 ranks deep were DEFINETLY possible to hit at 200+ yards.

@stephengoldie8337

7 ай бұрын

@@vgahren Based on Prussian and British military testing (can’t remember when exactly): Let’s do the maths and the 300 yard starting distances make sense: 300 yards: 7 hits in 50 shots: 14% 200 yards: 15 hits in 50 shots: 30% 100 yards: 25 hits in 50 shots: 50% 50 yards: 37 hits in 50 shots: 75% So let’s say 100 vs 100. Team A vs Team B. Team B is attacking A from 300 yards with intent to fire at 50 yards then charge home with bayonet. Team A will be able to fire roughly 3 volleys. 1st volley: 14 casualties. 86 remaining. 2nd volley: 26 casualties, 60 remaining. 3rd volley: 30 casualties, 30 remaining. Team B fires volley inflicting 22 casualties then charges in against nearly 3 times their number. If Team A were to get a last min volley off then Team B will be mostly eliminated. At this point team B will probably withdraw being chased by A’s own bayonet charge.

@jadall77

4 ай бұрын

@@MajorCoolD Like I remember a documentary where if civil war soldiers in the front line pushed like a big shield on wheels. It wouldn't work because the ballistics of bullets coming in were very curved like a guy I met had a 45-70 the bullet falls 68 inches at 300 yards.EDIT: To add to my comment a .55 .57 caliber bullet would fall even further at 200-300 yards you get a bit more pressure out of the new shaped bullets minnie balls etc. Yeah not enough to shoot and hit people at 600 yards. It would be like aiming a mortar vs shooting a modern rifle.

I went into this video rolling my eyes at the title and thinking "yeah sure bro. I will hear you out" but damn do you make a good argument for the idea. Can't beleive i never thought of this stuff

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

I used to be the same way about rifles and the war, and I struggled for a while before I came to realize the evidence and documentation was too extensive to ignore. Glad you enjoyed the video.

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

One other reason why it matters to get the impact of the rifled musket straight is that the traditional narrative implies that superior equipment is all you need in war, whereas, as you show, there needs to be a lot of training to be able to use that equipment. I was struck by that "eight times faster" claim in the History Channel, and wondered if you would mention it. It suggest they're confusing the rifled musket with something like the Dreyse needle gun. So much for the History Channel.

@sanjivjhangiani3243

4 ай бұрын

In the Napoleonic wars, two rounds a minute was standard. So, the History Channel is saying that Civil War soldiers could fire - sixteen rounds a minute??? Those were some amazing soldiers.

@mathieu.robert

2 ай бұрын

Maybe they were referring to the firing rate of older types of rifle muskets (the ones that were around Napoleonic times) that were indeed slower to reload than a smooth bore musket or the Minie ball rifle muskets. Or maybe I’m just giving too much credit to the History Channel.

@michaelwright2986

2 ай бұрын

@@mathieu.robert Just pursuing your thought, Brett has a video on the first rifled muskets (kzread.info/dash/bejne/iI2hm7Gfir2zpsY.html) and at about 1:10 it appears that an expanding bullet rifle fires about three time as fast as an old-style ball weapon (presumably that's before the fouling gets really bad). At the beginning of his video on the Austro-Prussian war (kzread.info/dash/bejne/gqyi19SOhNS9qLA.html), he demonstrates a Dreyse firing about twice as fast (or a bit more) as a good expanding projectile rifled musket: which would make it about eight times faster than the Old Skool rifle. So I think you're right, and the History Channel has taken the biggest number it could find (because, if we have to have numbers, the bigger the betterer, am I right?) and slammed down the difference between an early 19th c. rifled musket and the Dreyse without considering whether or not it is strictly accurate. Perhaps we have got to the source of History Channel's error. Do you think they care?

@alexteague9075

28 күн бұрын

Glad you said it because it hurt my brain "traditional weapon"? They mean smooth bore musket? Hand cannon? Bow and arrow? 😂

I shot a lot before I went to basic, my granddad WW2, Dad Korean and boy scout leader Vietnam, made sure all of us boys and gals within their circle new how to shoot with iron sights and we all started with single shot guns. A lot of us went into the military. Growing up like that, I just assumed that everyone knew how to shoot, I was amazed that hardly anyone had ever even shot a gun before, and like you said, at distance. I grew up in the mountains in Oregon, where we hunted to fill the freezer and shot handgun silhouette. We used M16A1's when I went in, I was already used to shooting peep sights and buckhorns out to 300 yards. I am really grateful to everyone who shoot me how to shoot when I was young and since then. It made me a better soldier and later a better hunter also. I still learned different things in the military about better ways to shoot and how not only different positions changed, but tactics also. Awesome presentation as always, you seem pass out nuggets of good stuff every time. I am also fascinated with history and the weapons.

It should be recalled that the introduction of the percussion cap increased the reliability of the weapon to repeatedly fire. In Napoleonic warfare, a battalion's flintlock fire could decrease to possibly only 60 percent of the muskets available after the first volley.

@Losantiville

Жыл бұрын

Remember the poorly functioning Maynard tape primer. Sometimes people confuse it with the reliable cap.

@alganhar1

Жыл бұрын

The reduction in rate of fire in Napoleonic muskets was not down to problems with the ignition, but with a problem that is common with black powder. Fouling. It does not MATTER what black powder firearm you are using, build up of fouling is an issue. More modern black powder mixes build up more slowly, but they still build up. The reason why percussion cap overtook the flintlock was not reliability, the flintlock was actually a very reliable system. It was simply that the percussion cap system was cheaper and easier to make, while still being at least as reliable as the flintlock. Whether you use a flintlock or percussion cap however, you are still going to have to flush out the barrel of your weapon after 10 or so rounds because of the build up of partially burned powder and debris (that fouling) in the barrel, which makes the loading process much more difficult.

@hoosieryank6731

Жыл бұрын

@@alganhar1 True, but remember: "Cleaner" bullets were often issued to fix this. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qYmco9qflbfYhc4.html

@OutnBacker

Жыл бұрын

@@alganhar1 I gave your comment a thumbs up because I partially agree with your statement on cap development. However, I must disagree on the reliablilty of flintlocks being just as reliable as caplocks. In hunting use - then yes, with time and opportunity for proper care and prep. But in battles? Part of the problem with flint is that its supply was never a sure thing, being quarried, split, and processed down to usable shapes in the millions. That much is not in dispute, whereas caps could be made quickly and by the tens of millions in factories with quality control being easy, and made by relatively low skilled workers. Flint knappers were not cheap labor. They were almost on a par with the local blacksmith in demand. As to reliablilty: I do agree that a flintlock is a good system, but not an excellent system. It has inherant weaknesses that the caplock almost completely eliminates. Easier to carry by the numbers, more weather resistant (can be sealed by soft wax), more reliable flash, hotter flash, more consistant flash. Caplocks will burn through accumulated fouling at the touch hole when the powder in the pan may not. Caps project their flash into the nipple which acts as a jet to accelerate and "point" the fire into the main charge. Almost all of the fire goes into the touch hole, whereas only th eperiphery of the pan fire contacts the the hole. The rest is blown into the air, doing nothing. Thus, flintlocks, by comparison, are somewhat passive in the mechanics of ignition, relying on a clean vent and just the right amount of powder in the pan. Too much, along with fouling, and the flash might not even reach the main charge. Too little brings its own issues, along with prior fouling at the touch hole. There is no channeled fire that gets forced into the main charge like a small gas torch. Don't get me wrong. I am not biased against the flinter. I love them and have a lot of time behind a few very nice ones. But, I am convinced that the higher ratio of casualties of wars after the advent of the caplock - however short a period that was until brass cartridges - was because of the reliabilty of almost every shot being sent down range, even after the first ten shots worth of fouling. That, and rifling. My own experince with caplocks over 45 years ( Springfields, Model of 1841, Enfields) show that bore fouling builds to a point of making loading difficult(at about 12 shots depending on weather), but that it can be rammed through, with the fouling getting scrubbed clear enough to continue firing up to 47 shots in some instances. It's as if the hardest fouled load gets scrubbed down into the breech, and then gets ejected so you sort of start over. I did this test many times to try to get an insight as to how - during a battle - the troops continued to fire when there was no time to do a precursory cleaning. Just my theory.

@garyhoffman6067

Жыл бұрын

To continue, the British found that in the testing in the Tower, that an infantry flintlock using a standard cartridge, would under ideal loading conditions, fire about 6 of 10 times. Usually, the first volley was the only full volley by a unit. I should note that with the dependability of the cap, the infantryman no longer needed to carry a sword as the last means of defense after a flash in the pan upon the approach of lancer.

Yes you are correct about learning how to shoot when you enlisted into the Army. I had experience as a kid and US Army JROTC being on the school rifle team. During Basic Training at Ft. Benning we had old M16A1 rifles from the Vietnam era in 1986. I shot horribly on our first diagnostic qualification along with everyone being over confident. I qualified by one shot. Only 12 guys along with me only qualified as marksman.I told my Drill Sergeant that I wasn't good enough that I needed retraining. My Drill Sergeant admired my honesty that they gave me more push ups and made me do 7 pull ups everyday during rifle qualification week. They made me very tired and told me to relax, I was too high strung. They told me final qualification was another week and at the end of the 2 weeks. I was on the Weaponeer everyday and on the zero range and pop up 300 meter range. I took advantage of the retraining. Finally on qualification day just for myself just barely making Marksman, I qualified expert during Basic and again at Infantry AIT before graduation. My Drill Sergeants smoked me to relax and to work through the pain and focus on sight picture and trigger squeeze. My Drill Sergeants were amazing instructors indeed.

@michaeldalton3456

10 ай бұрын

Did the Malone Complex myself in 1980. You probably had my weapon!

This was so educating! I have allways struggled to understand a decision made in the Danish army right before the war of 1864. They chose to keep on using the smoothbore instead of changing to rifles. In the war against Preussia they were defeated by troops armed with the needle rifle. So why didnt they get rifles? You have just answered that question. And why did Denmark REALLY lose that war.. Because of artillery and being outnumbered 4-1 thats why.

@poil8351

9 ай бұрын

also poor planning and logistics and numerous bad decisions at the command and poltical level.

@thomasbaagaard

4 ай бұрын

you are completely wrong about this. Denmark had been using riflemuskets since 1848. Int he 1850ties usually with 20% men armed with tham, and 80% with smoothbores. In 1860/61 the ex frence model 1822 smoothbroes where uprifled. So in 1864 the entire danish army was using riflemuskets. Just like the Austrians where.

I came after a recommendation from Brandon F and the “Because History Matters” collaboration. I was very enlightened to learn about the truth behind civil war tactics and why the devastating war casualties took place, not as a result of the effectiveness of the Rifle, but more as the result of the poor training of the soldiers in modern firearms training that would have given them the tactical advantage in combat. You’ve got a long term viewer out of me!

Very interesting topic. The potential for the rifle-musket was there, in theory, but in the real world it could never be realized except in some unusual situations, like specialist sharpshooter units.

@thomasbaagaard

Жыл бұрын

and again and again and again in the hands of well trained British infantry.

@vorynrosethorn903

Жыл бұрын

It did actually make a difference in terms of a fight between old and new (e.g. One side could start shooting at the other before they themselves got in range), the British proved this many a time during the Indian mutiny, but while it was almost certainly a factor in the American civil war there were plenty of others and indeed European observers tended to credit the willingness of America units to shoot each other to pieces and thereby engage in a battle of attrition over committing to steel for the very high casualties (you might take casualties in a charge but men tend to also run rather than face the bayonet and thus the casualties overall are much lower that if they shot each other into combat ineffectiveness), this is why greater aggressiveness was largely the lesson taken, unfortunately for them faster loading rifles were on the horizon and would revolutionise tactics in a totally different direction.

The National Rifle Association NRA was founded by military men, about 8 years after the Civil War, for the purpose you are explaining. Thank you.

@MultiCappie

9 ай бұрын

Not for these purposes anymore.

@anthonyanderson5302

4 ай бұрын

Thats debatable. Generally I still believe they hold true to their origins

@dsan94

3 ай бұрын

How far they have fallen

And because of this.......Poor Union soldier marksmanship.....the NRA was founded in 1871.

@danielcurtis1434

Жыл бұрын

And then when the NRA wasn’t sufficient we did it again with the civilian marksmanship program in 1903!!! At this point I think we need a new government sponsored program!!! Everything is neuters and each year there’s less places to shoot it seems. We need more ranges especially outdoor (currently 90% of my small collection is black powder). Man it sucks to have guns and ammo but no where to discharge!!!

@davidtuttle7556

Жыл бұрын

And then there is the cost of ammo. You practically need an operating loan to go shooting.

@seanlanglois8620

Жыл бұрын

​@@danielcurtis1434try 1776 or a pirate ship

@danielcurtis1434

Жыл бұрын

@@seanlanglois8620 I don’t understand what your referring to?

@Aceman52

Жыл бұрын

Thier marksmanship was good enough to win the war

The rifle musket is really not more effective than a smoothbore in the hands of a common private, but the minie ball is a much deadlier projectile. A round ball flies so poorly through the air it loses much more of its kinetic energy at range.

Before I went to Marine boot camp in 1975 I was reading everything I could about the "new" M16A1 service rifle and its shortcomings. One story was sending marksmanship training units to train rifle platoons in Vietnam. The platoon would be polled for its Gomer Pyle and that soldier would be dragged out and subjected to a short, intense period of remedial marksmanship instruction. Meanwhile, the rest of the platoon would be given a loaded magazine and lined up to shoot silhouette targets at (drum rolls!) TWENTY-FIVE meters. After the entire platoon had fired a magazine (20 rounds? That was standard at the time, but it was also common practice to load only 18 rounds for reliability--not a problem with current STANAG 30-round magazines) each the hits were tallied up. Some of the platoon fired full auto. Some fired from the hip. All fired from standing. Then Gomer Pyle fired a magazine from prone--and often that "lousy shot" managed to achieve more hits at 25 meters than the rest of the platoon combined. During previous wars there were command complaints that riflemen weren't shooting their weapons in combat. Training took place on a formal live-fire range with clearly-visible targets. When in combat, the "trained" rifleman had no target--and had a choice between saving ammo until there WAS a visible target or spewing shots across the countryside to convince everybody that the rifleman was DOING something. Does this have any application to Civil War industrial-age armies? The M16A1 and its product improved rifles are able to put five-round one-hole groups at 25 meters from a machine rest. Soldiers are not machine rests. It was common for riflemen to miss targets within 25 meters whether that was 1864 or 1944 or 1968 or in the 21st Century. Locating an enemy beyond 100 meters is difficult. Then you have to ID and hit the enemy.

@johnfisk811

10 ай бұрын

I am reminded of the horrific spray of wildly missed rounds displayed at my local range at 25,50&100 metres baffles. Looking more like it had been used by 84mm Charlie Gs with a canister round than supposedly precision rifles and pistols.

I *LOVED* your improvised step out into the street to SHOW us the scene of that actual rifle vs rifle, sharpshooter vs sharpshooter face off.

Two things learned, the sniper standoff & the effectiveness of buck & ball.

History Channel has gone from something worthwhile to episodes of Ancient Aliens and Pawn Stars.

Well said! As someone who shoots a muzzleloading musket and rifle (and is very definitely not a great shot) what I can say is that the rifle at least has less randomness as to where the shot is going (versus a smoothbore, where the possible space that the bullet could occupy as it flies along resembles a trumpet with the flared end starting at around 75m). This cuts down the problem to the user, who can at least get consistent feedback as to where they should be trying to adjust their aim to. Also bang on about the ranging issue. The drop on a musket or muzzleloading rifle is obscene - at 200m you would have to aim above the head to hit a man's toes. Not having a way to rangefind accurately, the best bet is to wait until the target is 150m away or less (i.e. close enough to make out individual features) and then aim centre mass.

@OutnBacker

Жыл бұрын

Right. I aim at the "head" at 150yards. Hits are at the gut/pelvis.

@jason200912

10 ай бұрын

You can alternatively just set the sight to 300 and aim below their feet.

I remember reading in Co. Aytch by Civil War Private Sam Watkins that either (or both) Stonewall Jackson or Braxton Bragg would issue some number of cartridges (around 40) and that they would be charged money if they wasted those cartridges outside of combat. If that's even a little true, the average soldier wouldn't risk losing valuable bullets (let alone reload time) to fire at a target they weren't sure of hitting.

Found you through the collab, I like what I see, subbed. I don't think there exists a single History Channel documentary that doesn't have at least one glaring mistake. It's always been a huge problem with made for tv (or streaming service nowadays) documentaries. A company orders a doc from some agency, and the people producing it don't gaf about accuracy, it's just a paycheck for them. The rise of the amateur KZread historian has been a blessing.

Dry compelling to the end, a well put together presentation that has many dovetailing details to it. You presented it very well. I learnt sumpin new!

I’m so glad to finally see this video! I’ve been wanting to hear more on this topic since we meet back in Nov. Its really good to hear the real history of it all. Be interested to hear more about the sharpshooters and any know engagements they took part in.

I was completely enthralled by this video. I’m a civil war buff and I have to admit I was pretty much duped by the idea of the rifle musket being the thing that made the civil war so deadly. Thank you for so professionally and informatively explaining why it was not, I think I basically completely subscribe now to your explanation and I purchased your book on amazon before the video ended. I am also a newly redeemed lost causer and I honestly feel like I’m only just beginning to actually study the civil war rather than look for stereotypical points of interest that serve the lost cause narrative. (I know you didn’t really mention politics in this video just wanted to say that, feels good to give up that backwards view of the war)

@jason200912

10 ай бұрын

The biggest killer was their terrible leadership on both sides. The Europeans saw American leadership as primitive despite having some of the best technology in the world at the time. The ironclad terrified the entire world as a single one could take out a wooden boat navy

@weeb3244

9 ай бұрын

I am as well, and also really fell for it; it really doesn't help that it is repeated ad nauseum in school, and most places you look, unless you put in research like PC does. And if you don't know you need to do that research, you probably won't, as we didn't

@hardcase-69

9 ай бұрын

It certainly played a part but there is no one reason. Weaponry in general was becoming more advanced.

@Andrewbert109

6 ай бұрын

I'm NOT a civil war buff and I didn't think the rifled musket was why it was so deadly. I didn't really think anything though cause I don't know much about the civil war.

Thanks for the informative video! I’m new to your channel. I’m a long-time reenactor and a novice at live fire with a rifle musket as the chance to do any long-range practice is rare for me. Your point about Civil War soldiers not receiving adequate training in shooting is clear. The only training one of my ancestors got was a couple of roadside volleys on their way to Antietam. He was a nine month volunteer in the 130th PA! I’ll check out your other videos!

Well done mate! Really good to see such a good historical analysis on youtube (or anywhere else these days). So good to see a study collect and analyse evidence, then draw conclusions, rather than the other way around.

Thanks. Ive barely fired anything living in a Canadian city. Im happy to hear on the ideas, practices and lived experiences of those who do. I also enjoy history and re-enactments (mostly medieval) where putting on the kit and actually doing it really gives a much closer understanding.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

I typically go to Canada every June to shoot muskets, although that is in remote part of Alberta. But there are TONS of people who shoot black powder in Canada. I’m sure you could find some near you.

Excellent video once again Brett! Keep up the great work!! Thanks!

One of the best private docs I've seen. Kudos sir. Looking forward to seeing more.

Another great video! Also, I just finished your book "Like Fire and Powder". It was a wonderful read. Thanks for all the hard work.

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

I really enjoyed your video. I got caught up and couldn't stop watching. I'm a former N-SSA skirmisher, and used to shoot lots of John C. Garand matches, but I've rarely shot past 200 yards. Anyway, I became aware of the reality of your thesis many years ago, that the Minie rifle, even more than the round ball rifle, requires exceptional skill in range estimation because of its extreme trajectory, and thus had nothing like the long-range influence claimed in the Standard Myth. Buck-and-ball was generally better, because the vast majority couldn't hit an elephant at this dis... Anyway, great video. Your presentation is very engaging and makes for a very watchable video.

Great video, I just ran across your stuff yesterday. I've really enjoyed the information presented on the European schools of Musketry and how they compared to the lack of American schools either Union or Confederate. This also explains the motivation of the founders of the NRA after the Civil War and their observations that the typical Union soldier didn't know how to shoot. Tied a lot of ends together. You should've attended an Appleseed Project event before enlisting, my daughter qualified in our program before going on active duty in 2012 and shot expert walking in the door, transitioning from a Ruger 10-22 to an M16. I look forward to reviewing the rest of your material. Stay safe on your next deployment.

Excellent work, as always, I have learned a lot form your videos, keep it up!

Fantastic analysis! I was all in for the rifle vs line narrative! Intersting!

The amount of soldiers on the battlefield also contributed to the amount of people killed. My thoughts are that people look at things superficially. They have no idea of what was actually involved in most wars. One would also think that untrained leaders didn't understand tactics. Someone was the leader and officer of a group who was a professor of Bible studies or Mayor of a town. Initially there was ignorance of what not to do tactically.

Have been enjoying these talks. All the best from NSW.

Rewatching this, i now truly appreciate the monstrous ballistics of the padewils rifle musket you spoke of in your latest video on the Bavarian campaign of the Austro-Prussian war. That thing was firing a bullet 500-600fps faster than many of its contemporaries.

@papercartridges6705

Ай бұрын

Yeah it was wild fast velocity for a rifle musket.

Fascinating content Brett, many thanks.....................

Thank you for your well reasoned discussion about the lack of training with the rifled musket& it's effect on civil war battle tactics. Fascinating & thought provoking. I recently discovered tour channel on paper cartridges that's educational & interesting to ruminate upon! Cheers, Paul from S. Central Tx.

@papercartridges6705

10 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for your encouraging comments!

Awesome video, years ago I used to read some alternate history forums where posters shared a lot of info about training of the British and French. Some "what if" discussion centred around Crimean war shocking US Army into establishing a rifle school before ACW even started and effects that would have had. If I remember right some officers were sent as observer but did not get to Crimea till after the city surrendered. One point I wanted to make is that when firing at those ranges at men formed into battalions or batteries in the open you do not have to hit men sized target. You need to be in the ballpark that is a lot larger and range estimation is by far the most important aspect of it. If you know battery is 475 yards away as long as you shoot for that range volume of fire would suppress it.

In the Civil War, I figured most line infantry were close enough to the officers and NCO's that they could be told what sights to set. Firing in volley means everyone is essentially shooting at the same target anyway.

@robertstallard7836

Жыл бұрын

They usually were close enough to their officers/NCOs for that to happen, but only if the officer or NCO: a/ Understands the capability of the firearm his soldiers are using. b/ Accurately estimates the distance. c/ Decides to order his men to open fire at that distance. and also if the men: d/ Are trained well enough to be able to set their sights to the distance given. e/ Have the skills to hold, aim and fire their firearms correctly. In the ACW, none of these are a given.

@olafkunert3714

10 ай бұрын

You need officers who could make good range estimates and you still need soldiers who have trained aming in controlled firing. There was a reason that the minimum service time was around two years in most armies with draft.

Bravo, and Huzzah!! Given that the rifle was given very little opportunity for correct application, with many interractions taking place using Napoleonic tactics fifty yards apart. A rifle was wasted. Not so my time watching this excellent and thought-provoking 47 minutes and 22 seconds. Thank you, for time well-spent in watching your words on as fascinating period in the history of the US of A.

It was absolute pleasure, many thanks! Cheers from Poland :D

Thanks for sharing your spur of the moment battlefield tour.

Wow ,your shop location is so cool,must be a buzz working at your work with this background history….! Thanks and regards from New Zealand.

Thank you Brett, another very interesting and scholarly video, I’m hooked on your channel!

These knowledgable deep dives to specific topics are much more enjoyable than shallow format of tv and tv like programs.

Great video! It reminded me of the time Larry Moore, my high school history teacher explained to the class that the Minnie bullet expanded in the air after it left the muzzle of the rifle. Even at that age a few of us knew that he didn’t have a clue.

That was really well presented and very interesting. Your arguments and rationale are easy to understand. You speak very well. Thanks very much, Gus

@papercartridges6705

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Thanks for this video. I've gotten interested in historic muzzleloading arms in recent months and coincidentally am currently reading "The Destroying Angel." I've also got copies of "The English Cartridge" and "Like Fire and Powder" on my to-read stack. Fascinating stuff!

@philspaugy1756

Жыл бұрын

Great video. Echoing what I have been talking about for years.

This was fascinating! Thank you!

Very well done Sir. Really enjoyed it!

Superb video to bring reality to a much-mythologized topic. You are doing priceless service for American history.

Thanks Brett.....very informative video.

The first firearm I ever shot in my life was my M16a2 that was issued to me at Fort Knox. But during my ten years in the Army, I never score higher than marksman until I was able buy my own AR-15 rifle and go to the range on my own time. Only then did my score improve. Well, that and the adoption of red dot sights.

An excellent video on a topic of great interest & importance 👍👍

Thank You for the interesting approach to this topic. The connection of military, economical, technical and social influences invites for a deeper research and makes You reading more. Thanks and lots of greetings from Bamberg, Germany, Marcus.

Very Good Presentation. The Austrians had similar problems in 1859 when fighting the French. The Austrians had just issued the new Lorenz rifles without proper training. The French were able to close the range in massed columns with few losses.

While the video dispells the ultra long range myth quite nicely it does not address the actual performance differences between Napoleonic flintlocks and percussion cap Minnie ball rifles. A similar deepdive into the Napoleonic era infantry warfare is needed.

Keep grinding man, I'll share the videos and when you get your silver youtube plaque I can say " I've been watching that guy before he had 10k subs."

Thank you for this video. I learned a lot.

Great video, and best of Fortune with you endeavors

Superb work Sir .... even for a Blanket Stacker 😊. A most interesting and informative channel - as always we tend to simplify much in military history in respect to weaponry (I have seen much the same regarding armoured warfare 1939-1942 too - with incorrect assessment of the British 2 pounder and German panzers etc) Well Done 😊

Very interesting and thought provoking video. One of my ancestors was a 93rd Highlander who probably was in The Thin Red Lone that showed that old tactics of forming square by default no longer held true for infantry against cavalry in every case.

@TheDubsmannie

Жыл бұрын

The 93rd, at Balaklava, fired their first volley when the Russian cavalry were at 450 yards. They got in two further volleys before the Russians had enough and veered off. This was using the Pattern 1851 Rifle, which fired a .702 inch, 680 grain bullet; exactly the same as the French 1842 Rifle. This is the rifle that was used in the major battles of the Crimean War, with devastating effect, yet most of the British troops arrived in the Crimea still armed with smooth bore muskets. It wasn't till the siege of Sevastopol that the Pattern 1853 Enfield rifle was introduced. This was the .577 rifle that was used in the American Civil War. So, professional British troops arrived in a combat zone armed and trained with smooth bore muskets. They were then equipped with musket bore rifles, which they used to devastating effect, at relatively long ranges, after minimal training. They were then issued with a smaller calibre, more accurate rifle, which they used for effective sniping at previously unknown ranges, after minimal training. All within two years of continuous combat. The American generals should have learned from this and hired British musketry instructors.

@thomasbaagaard

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDubsmannie 3 out of 4 divisions had P1851s when they landed. And everyone had been trained on it. First on Malta and then at Varna.

Wow super interesting video! This seriously changes the way I think about the entire war.

Superb video! Thank you!!!

Very interesting and informative, thankyou.

Great video and very interesting. I have to admit, I started the video thinking there was no way your premise was correct. After all your well researched evidence, I am convinced you are indeed correct!

Great video. I really like this kind of deep dive.

Excellent video on the subject matter. Glad I’m not alone in believing that training more than technology had an impact on the course of ACW tactical realities. Without diminishing the significance of the conflict, I’ve always been critical of quality of ACW troops overall. Although some would say that the average veteran by 1865 would be equal to or better than top-tier European veterans (British, French, Prussian), I am unconvinced (and it is all speculation anyway). It seems like the US really struggled with troop quality during the 19th century, and the lessons were long and hard. Watching the video and reading some comments, I am reminded of how the War of 1812 precipitates a lot of the issues that pop up in the ACW. Unlike in Wellington’s Peninsular army, there were no rifle units in British North America. There were, however, four US Rifle regiments, rifle volunteers attached to line infantry units, and rifle-armed militia units aplenty for the US, never mind weight of numbers. And yet, the presence of these units’ technological superiority did not translate into tactical superiority, due to the poor training of the regulars and militias alike. All Canadian offensives failed, and ultimately the coastlines could not be secured. Smoothbore-armed, professional British troops(who typically had 10+ years of service in the Canadas and an annual marksmanship training programme like the one used in the 1850s and 60s) bested them. Only troops rigorously trained by Jacob Brown and Winfield Scott achieved tactical parity and success, and those were smoothbore-armed troops using a standardised, modernised drill manual. It’s also interesting to note that Buck-and-ball were first issued to US troops during the War of 1812 to act as a stop-gap compensating method for the overall poor quality of troops. However, it did not appear then to provide a significant advantage, so it is interesting to hear that it was well-respected in the 1860s for its destructive potential.

However the Army never went back to using smoothbore firearms after the Civil War , rifling cost more than a smoothbore .

This is a very interesting presentation and made me appreciate Civil War history more. Some of the points you raise about buck-and-ball effectiveness at closer ranges is very similar to my research dealing with earlier blackpowder weapons in the 16th and 17th century. At around 100 to 200 yards the smoothboore matchlocks were effective enough to get center mass hits. Certainly not the kind of accuracy a military would look for today, but sufficient for volley fire.

@HalideHelix

7 ай бұрын

Yah agreed....people seem to like to exaggerate the smoothbore muskets inaccuracies at ranges over 40 meters.

@Corvinuswargaming1444

7 ай бұрын

@HalideHelix Definitely and there is a lot of variation among the matchlock weapons, the Turkish sources I have studied will list long and short muskets separately in armory equipment lists, with separate accoutrements. This is a sign that there was a degree of standardization and muskets for different roles. If these weapons were so inaccurate it doesn't make sense that an empire would put significant resources into building and issuing them.

Cool ballistic info buddy. Thanks

About time somebody did this. Thankyou.

Interesting content. Good background information.

great video... detailed and nuanced...

Very interesting, didn't put 2&2 together -had heard about cw soldiers not getting range time, that would negate the advantages of the rifle musket. Thanks for showing the spot on the street where the Conf. marksman were set up!

@Bidimus1

Жыл бұрын

It would not change the range advantage over round ball. ballistic coefficient is a thing.

@thess344

Жыл бұрын

@@Bidimus1 The potential was definitely there, yet the potential was limited due to lack of skill and ability of the user is seems.

It's also worth pointing out that battles fought with smoothbore muskets were every bit as lethal as those fought with rifled muskets. At Malplaquet in 1709 an allied army of 86,000 men suffered about 22,000 casualties in a SINGLE DAY. At that army was under the leadership of Marlborough and Eugene of Savoy, two of the greatest commanders of their day. Attacking entrenched infantry armed with firearms was always going to be incredibly bloody, whether those weapons were rifled or not.

@peterblum613

9 ай бұрын

This is important. Although many discuss the supposedly "unprecedented" slaughter of the Civil War, more well-informed historians point out that the casualties were comparable to Napoleonic battles.

@biggiouschinnus7489

9 ай бұрын

@@peterblum613 It also demonstrates that commander competence doesn't prevent high casualties, either - Grant is reviled by many as a butcher, but he was no more so than Napoleon, Marlborough or Lee.

@peterblum613

9 ай бұрын

@@biggiouschinnus7489 Yes, in fact, Lee's armies in the aggregate suffered a higher percentage of casualties than Grant's.

Loved the bit about tourists had the same problem when on ceremonial duty in Edinburgh Castle every time I had to move about the castle in kilt with basket jilted broadsword could not risk pausing otherwise I would have been swamped by requests for photographs!

Thoroughly enjoyed this video as the last video.

Thank you. Excellent analysis of the "no doubt" reality of the shooting capabilities of, virtually, all those volunteers bearing arms. Very, very few, would have had the private means to attain the skills of the trained sharpshooters. The range & trajectory problem was one also experienced by English archers a long time before. Back then, where possible, the likely battlefield was scouted, range landmarks noted or marks set all the way out to around 300 yds. Their success can be attributed to a law which dictated that archery be practised by all males over nine years old. Effectively by the age at which they might be called to arms, they would have reached a comparative standard to that of the sharpshooters of the American civil war period.

Very, very well done with much to think about. Many thanks. As a case in point, the British army, somewhere along the line went from good musketry training to getting their pants shot off in the Boer War. But learning that lesson they again instituted excellent training which proved out in the first battles of WWI.

@TheDubsmannie

Жыл бұрын

This has to do with the long distances involved, rather than musketry training. The British Army were out-shot in the 2nd Boer War because they were unable to use the accurate .303 ammunition they had developed, as it has hollow-point. They had to revert to the solid Mk2 ammunition, which was not as accurate at long range as the excellent 7x57 Mauser ammunition. Also, most British troops were unaccustomed to the long ranges encountered in South Africa, whereas the Boers were used to them. Fortunately, the accurate Mk7 round was developed before 1914 and training was carried out at longer ranges. The American Army was using a 150 grain target round at this time, which, although accurate at medium range, did not reach the German trenches.

@olafkunert3714

10 ай бұрын

"But learning that lesson they again instituted excellent training which proved out in the first battles of WWI." That is nonsense. The British version of Mons and Le Cateau is an entertaining military fairy tale. There was no good infantry tactics on the side of the BEF: The Brits lost 11500 men in both battles, the Germans 7500. At Le Cateau the attacking Germans were outnumbered, but drove the defenders out of their positions and inflicted 2.5 times higher losses. At Mons the losses were equal, the numbers too. If you do not want to die stupid I suggest you read Zuber's book on Mons.

It's good to hear your take on this. I grew up being told and believing the fallacies of rifle muskets in the civil war. I've even heard Shelby Foote say that the rifle musket was the reason for the high casualties. It was Earl J. Hess who convinced me otherwise when I read his book on the subject last year.

@ichimonjiguy

Жыл бұрын

If not the rifled muskets, what was the reason (cause)?

@nlwilliamsj

Жыл бұрын

@@ichimonjiguy It was just the nature of the linear tactics used. Battlefield casualties during the Napoleonic wars, which were fought almost exclusively with smoothbore muskets, were also quite high.

@lloydeaker3757

Жыл бұрын

The casualties were not heavier in the ACW compared to the Napoleonic wars or the Seven Years War. If you find the casualty rates at battles like Borodino in 1812 you will find that they were every bit as deadly.

@The_Iowegian

Жыл бұрын

I'm just about to start Hess's book on Civil War Infantry Tactics. His book on Kennesaw Mountain and Peach Tree creek are also great.

@johnmoreno9636

Жыл бұрын

@@ichimonjiguy I believe artillery. Just like the rifled musket, you started getting rifled Parrott guns and other rifled artillery pieces with much greater range. Something I read said in Napoleon's day typical artillery range was 500 yards - in the Civil War it was 1500. When you read diaries, they often mention the "galling" artillery fire, especially cannister shot at 200 yards or closer. It would create big gaps in the line.

Very cool living so close to History.

Interesting . . Thanks

Excellent video. I have always questioned, how much target practice did a Civil War soldier receive and thanks to your video, I now know that some didn't receive any. P.S. my dad made sharpshooter, with the M1 Garand, when he was in the Army Reserves.

@j.d.unlisted8668

Жыл бұрын

Years ago I worked with an older guy that was in the Army Resrves and he talked about taking the old M1 Garand out on the range. He said that one time they were shooting tracers, he said they ended that day's training fighting a grass fire. LOL.

@mpetersen6

9 ай бұрын

I believe British Muzzleloaders has information on the amounts of ammunition that the British Army's riflemen expended versus or armies.

"Casualties on an unheard of scale?" Did the History Channel ever heard of the Napoleonic Wars? At Borodino alone the French and Russians lost over 70,000.

Then there's General sedgwick's famous last words

I stayed to the end 😂. I have to say i was surprised. I was always lead to believe the rifle musket “changed everything” it kind of reminds me of the “Lions led by Donkeys” myth of WW1. Would it be fair to say a lot of the casualties of the civil war were caused by artillery on the battle field or disease behind the lines?

@papercartridges6705

11 ай бұрын

The rifle indeed caused 80 to 90% of casualties. While the rifle wasn’t used out to its full capabilities, at the shockingly close ranges that CW battles were fought at, it was still terribly destructive.

@jquill6

11 ай бұрын

@@papercartridges6705 I’m surprised The History Channel presented something as fact that was so far removed from reality….well not that surprised.

Another excellent video!!

Fantastic video.

I don’t shoot them modern guns, except my home defense guns. Counting that Springfield as modern too. If’n it ain’t got a rock in the lock it ain’t worth shooting. 😊 Now I live a few miles from Wilson Creek battlefield. I note that all the positions were in range of my fusil and my musket. I get a little better accuracy with my smooth rifle, but not enough to matter past a hundred yards. Watching some soldier demonstrating the arms, I’m thinking I could lay down more shots per minute then the cap lock, and be in the effective range of that battle. I do note that the battle of Waterloo and Gettysburg had both similar numbers of soldiers fighting and similar casualties

@1799to1815

10 ай бұрын

😂 your funny. Love rock in the lock. From a fellow flinter.

Insightful video!

The minie ball is smaller in diameter than the barrel, so it could conceivably be shot and loaded more times before the black powder gums up the rifle barrel and cleaning was necessary. That was one advantage over the smooth ball, where the smooth ball and barrel diameters were very close to avoid powder blow by when the rifle was fired.

@sheilamorrison1954

10 ай бұрын

It is smaller but has an expanding tail to make contact with the barrel. That actually increases metal on metal wear but reduces the rifling getting gummed up. Swings and roundabouts.

@thomasbaagaard

4 ай бұрын

not with the burton bullet used during the civil war. It had serious issues with fouling after about 10 rounds.

Great video thank you

Interesting discussion, subscribed.

Good video, and also years earlier the military marksmanship was something I would have in the bag, the new guys to rifle shooting were the best because they listened.

One advantage I do see over the smoothbore is the ammo. A conical projectile is going to penetrate better and have more mass to crush through mass. I know I’ve heard they were known to be capable of killing after going through someone. Given their doing large charges it seems the extra lethality would have some advantages?

@hardcase-69

9 ай бұрын

It did have advantages. Rifle Muskets used a percussion cap also making them more reliable. This all played a part in why the Civil war was so deadly. But just a part.

@danielcurtis1434

9 ай бұрын

@@hardcase-69 yeah but they had caplock conversions of smoothbores. I would love a caplock Brown Bess reproduction that I could use as a 10 gauge shotgun essentially that would be sweet!!!

Great video.(yeah the laser range finder bit was sarcasm