This theory is well-argued, but the “rescue Abigail from Milton” mission kills it for me. If Abigail was the rat, why wouldn’t Milton just say so to Arthur while he has Abigail & Sadie tied up near the end? Clearly Milton is in the mood to share info with Arthur, whom he plans to kill in a moment and has no reason to lie to.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I mentioned how I think that the Pinkertons turned on Abigail later on, so maybe Milton was trying to convince her to come back? If you watch, Abigail had a gag, but it wasn't covering her mouth, so the two must have been having a conversation before Sadie intruded. Again, it's all theory though

@BearIslandComics

Жыл бұрын

@@FilbeeGaming The gag is actually covering Abigail's mouth when you kick the door in. After Arthur shoots the 2nd Pinkerton, it's down around her neck.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

@@BearIslandComics Ah, I'll have to watch it again now 🤣

@yungjahallah3246

Жыл бұрын

I agree bro, this is just a bit of a reach imo

@johnrider7747

Жыл бұрын

Because he is using arthur to get to Dutch, if he were to tell him about Abigail.. arthur would have been more focused on that and less likely to help Abigail (in Milton's eyes)

This is a good theory but Hosea wouldn't sacrifice himself to get the gang to give up. Abigail probably planned to separate from Hosea at some point before the Pinkerton's caught anyone. They let her get out of saint denis but kept Hosea once they caught him. Obviously Abigail was no where to be seen once they caught up with Hosea making sure it looked natural.

@theforefathersyoutubeschan6906

Жыл бұрын

I think the whole point of that scene is that the federal government won't shoot you in the back, it doesn't look good on the paperwork. Notice how a young Ross also watches

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Excellent point

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

Good point.

@ajjohnson3416

Жыл бұрын

Maybe hosea knew too much and they didn't want him to talk to dutch and give up maybe abigail because alot of leads trace back to her ratting

@michaelschmidt7939

Жыл бұрын

I dont know. Hosea did do whatever he could to help Abigail & Jack. He admitted he knew his time was almost up. With little time left, its not that far fetched to think he would sacrifice himself to help Abigail and Jack. He was dying so he decided to put his impending death to use and use it to help Abigail & Jack. So to me its not far fetched at all. Thats the type of men Hosea was. Selfless. Which is why he was always one of the best members in the gang.

I pointed out this theory years ago. Milton said it wasn't Molly, and he had no reason to lie. He also said Micah wasn't a snitch until AFTER the bank robbery, so if there was a rat prior to that, it wasn't Micah, and it wasn't Molly. The only one who had any motive to be a rat was Abigail. She was the only one with anything to gain. By making a deal with Milton, she could have turned over the rest of the gang in exchange for John's life.

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

Жыл бұрын

There's also theory that Micah was secretly feeding them info. Watch Fizhy's video on this.

@UlyssesAlpha

Жыл бұрын

Doesn't make sense though if John was going to be killed in the prison on the island. It would be stupid to put her family in danger like this. Dutch was too wreckless and Micah took advantage of it.

@STNeish

Жыл бұрын

@@UlyssesAlpha There's nothing to say Milton wouldn't lie... and he might argue he didn't. HE didn't kill John. Someone ELSE is going to do that. Still, I think it's the most logical supposition.

@Misfit710

11 ай бұрын

They were talking about hanging John before Arthur and Sadie break him out of Sisika but who’s to say that wasn’t just to prevent the gang from suspecting Abigail? If he mentioned her gang rules require her to be shot and they’re out of informants. Yes Micah was a rat after Guarma, but he’s only really out for himself so that makes him a bad source.

@STNeish

11 ай бұрын

@@Misfit710 It's also possible Milton just lied to Abigail about not killing John... or meant he wouldn't kill him at the bank... or meant HE wouldn't kill John, but the courts might... In any case, it's the best theory, I think.

There can be more than 2 rats imo. Micah in my opinion has too much evidence going his way to say he has to be the rat. For example, in chapter 2 at the end of the chapter when Arthur meets Milton and Ross. He is offered 1000 dollars to hand in Dutch. At Micah’s camp in the same chapter he has a 1000 dollar bounty poster of Dutch. I think rockstar are trying to imply that Arthur is good and Micah is evil in that Micah accepts the offer to be a traitor. Ever since this moment Micah sets up the gang in various ways when he doesn’t before this. For example the location of the 3rd chapters camp or setting up Arthur to get murdered by the odriscolls since Arthur is his biggest enemy. Micah also wore white during the heist so he wouldn’t be shot by the pinkertons

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I don't remember Arthur being offered money, just Milton's assurance that he wouldn't swing

@mikelitorous5570

Жыл бұрын

@@FilbeeGaming yeah I meant to say they gave him an amount which was the exact same as Micah’s bounty poster. I’m surprised people haven’t ever brought up that parallel tho since they happen at the exact same time during the story. I think rockstar done a great job in making it so you can infer between two different characters in being the rat. You brought up points i never even thought of when it came to Abigail which has changed my opinion on whether it was just Micah

@godzillazfriction

Жыл бұрын

@@mikelitorous5570 one thing is that rockstar never implies that 'arthur is good' and 'micah is evil' like you assume they are a parallel of each other but rockstar always intended for arthur to be evil or even a villain protagonist like Trevor, difference between trevor and arthur is that trevor is psychotic sociopath and arthur is more in line of a deeply no-remorse sociopath who knows what he is doing but enjoys doing bad things but thats until he's fully feeling the effects of TB thats were his redemption goes in chapter 6 and to make it better for the story and the character, you'd go with the low honor mountain ending

@godzillazfriction

Жыл бұрын

plus micah being seen as a traitor would be seen as a good thing from the eyes of society

@Yvngsausetheartist

Жыл бұрын

But no in the end in the mountains in the snow Micah is still there in Dutch side and the bounty never seen it where?

Lots of very strong valid points made. Also Milton told Arthur that Micah was the rat since they got back from Guarma. So i think the reason Milton turned on Abigail in the end was because they had a new rat who had strong influence on Dutch and no longer needed Abigail. Micah had Dutch in his palm, the perfect rat. Abigail was no longer useful so they stopped keeping their deals with her.

I remember my first time playing after the bank robbery thinking Abigail was the traitor and that was how RDR1 was set up all along... and as great as the game was a part of me was a little disappointed it wasn't the case. It would have totally and completely changed the experience of the first game, adding such a series of layers to it that it could NEVER be what it was before after knowing. If after all we went through with Arthur for the story of John to be built on the betrayal of that and of him possibly without John ever knowing so. We would forever be conflicted and taking sides and that would have us talking and debating until the end of time.

Great theory! (Fizhy directed us here) I always believed that Micah was a red herring as the traitor, too obvious, too much of a dirt bag, & too easy to despise. I believe she had a plan from the get go, especially as she's the one member of the gang one would least suspect as she's in the background for most of the game. The fishing trip with Jack & Arthur was obviously a set up with Abigail hoping Morgan would turn on Dutch. I always thought there was something "fishy" with Ross & Milton showing up there at the exact time & place.

@michaelschmidt7939

Жыл бұрын

But Abigail should have known that Arthur is loyal. Dutch raised Arthur and taught him many things. Dutch was like a father figure to Arthur. Arthur would never endanger Jack but he also would never betray Dutch after all Dutch has done for him.

@TemperateGreenBananaClassic

9 ай бұрын

hehe fishy

@Jobrosfan44

8 ай бұрын

He’s the rat, let it go

@RickCobra710

7 ай бұрын

Eye see what you did there lol

I've seen people put this theory out but the one thing that never added up was Abigail's relationship with the other gang members. All of the women, Arthur, and Hosea were all kind and caring towards Abigail and Jack. It doesn't really make sense that she'd be so selfish for her family when at this point John wasn't even really being a father. There's also the fact that there's a few holes in the proof you presented. - The Blackwater Ferry could've been Micah just as easy as it was Abigail. After you do his robbery mission near Strawberry, if you return to his camp you can find a Bounty Poster for Dutch. - For the fishing mission with Jack. While it is quite odd that the Pinkertons just showed up, remember that this happens 'after' you free Micah from Strawberry and his robbery mission. Once again, it could just as easily be implicated that its him. As for Abigail knowing when something's wrong, Arthur doesn't really know subtlety, and it's pretty obvious from his body language that something's wrong when Abigail speaks to him. - The Saint Denis heist is a little bit of a tricky one, but it still works out. While it's possible that Abigail sold them out and sacrificed Hosea.. there's two things odd here. One, I honestly don't think Hosea would sacrifice Dutch and Arthur for Abigail by just giving himself up. Especially Arthur, whom he saw as a son. Two, it's just as possible that Hosea simply told Abigail to split off from him. After all, in that situation who would you go for? Some random woman that runs with Dutch, or Hosea Mathews, Dutch's partner and brother-figure. However, in all of this Saint Denis stuff, John Marston is a real thorn here. Why did he survive? Well, it could be possible that he was held as the supposed last remaining inportant Van Der Linde gang member. Almost like a trophy from the late reign of Dutch. After all, someone has to be made an example. As Abigail said, there was "TALK" of hanging him. There was word going around that a Van Der Linde gang member was going to be hanged. Who better than one of Dutch's sons since Dutch himself was lost. Now you could argue that why not just use Hosea? Well he needed to use Hosea to spark a reaction from the Van Der Linde gang members inside the bank. - Now the part with Molly is really unimportant here. Abigail could be angry or disturbed that Molly would put Marston in harms way, as well as getting Hosea (someone who showed genuine care for her, John and Jack) and Lenny killed. Whether she was really behind it or not doesn't matter here that much. The last thing I actually want to point out is what Milton says to Arthur, about Micah being the rat. Here, Milton has no reason to lie, he has the upper hand, but then Abigail shoots him. Milton definitely wouldn't sacrifice himself for Abigail, and he has no reason to lie to Arthur here.

@gkohler14

Жыл бұрын

Interesting points!

I always thought the rat was Mac Callander seeing as is "killed offscreen". He sold out the crew for the ferry job because it was an "outsiders" job since the idea came from Micah. Thus Dutch is disobeying his own rules about loyalty. Hosea and Arthur already had a good job they were going to pull off but Micah's was set to happen first. All the gang members except Sean and Mac made it away, 2 then die on the way up the mountains. in chapter 2, I think the Pinkerton's just tracked the bloodshed in the Mountains and the first train job. In Chapter 3, the Gray Sheriff probably knew who the gang were from the start and alerted the Pinkertons and Chapter 4 they would have made a deal with Bronte, then after Guarma happens that's when Micah or Abigail comes in to play but then it makes no sense for Abigail to shoot Milton.

I respect your theory, Honestly. But Micha’s reaction when Author tells Dutch Milton said it was Micha. Regardless how true or untrue is irrelevant. It’s how increasingly desperate he acts towards Author with a pointed a gun. Abigail would not put her Son in a hostile situation with Milton and Pinkerton’s so she will disappear. But think how much she loved Jack. She knows how hostile the gang can be. Sure she wanted the Family life, but this was a bad time. Micha had been with Dutch from black water massacre. Also, listen to what he tells John about the gold in American Venom. “Join us” or He spent left of the gold. He was a planner alright in front of us. Things do tend to get fuzzy when gangs back against the wall.

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

Could it be possible that both Abigail and Micah were doing their own thing with the Pinkertons but not knowing the other was?

@samyar_si2642

Жыл бұрын

@@charlesfurnari7777 pinkerton said micah cheat on gang after they come from that island like in chapter 5 or 6 but before those chapter micah didn't cheat on gang and in saint denis robbery abigail and hosea were together but how pinkerton just catch hosea? And why they didn't kill john when they captured him? But they killed hosea when they captured him it seems sus

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

Жыл бұрын

@@samyar_si2642 Milton said "Micah has been a good boy since guarma". There's been theory that Micah has been feeding info secretly to Pinkertons and is playing all sides or he's actively sabotaging Dutch, so that he can capture the bounty on his head. Watch the theory on Fizhy's channel, he has more info on it.

I totally agree with your theory. I always had a feeling about this. Abigail was captured by the Pinkerton agents after Arthur and Sadie helped John escape from Sisica. So they knew right away that Abigail was directly involved in John's escape. Even with his conflicting mind, Dutch had a glimpse of what was happening. Agent Milton even says that Micah only starts helping them, after the Guarma incident, so in Blackwater and Saint Denis he wasn't the one giving information.

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

So that is why they kidnapped her. That makes sense. Or, it could have been a trap. Then again, she shot him. But, perhaps he said it was Micah to divert from her and to throw some shade so as to cause doubt.

@JohnReedy07163

Жыл бұрын

Blackwater was Mac, Saint Denis was Bronte. Even with Bronte gone, the Pinkerton's would be expecting some. Big City mob bosses don't just up and disappear

@edboy3644

9 ай бұрын

​@@JohnReedy07163blackwater was mac?

@asadshahid9885

9 ай бұрын

​@@edboy3644he is a Abigail lover

I think Micah was working with Colm, who also made a deal with Milton. We don’t know for sure when he spoke to him, but he does admit speaking directly to him during the one mission. As soon as the Pinkertons get their hands on Micah right after everyone gets back from Guarma and has a more direct tie to the gang, they no longer need Colm and hang him. The gang’s problems started shortly after Micah joined up a few months before the game even starts. They actually mention this. O’Driscols always seem to be close by and near camp. So either it’s just for gameplay reasons, or they are somewhat aware Dutch is in the area because of Micah and just don’t know for sure the exact location. Thus why Milton is in the area as well. Micah was arrested in strawberry along side an O’Driscoll, and when talking to Lenny, he only mentions Micah knew one of the guys they ran into. (Never mentions it was an O’Driscoll) So, A lot of stuff (for me anyway) makes more sense if I just assume Micah was working all sides including the O’driscolls because he’s as he claims, “A Survivor”. He wants to be the sole criminal/gang leader at any cost. Also, Micah was one of the gang members that was supposed to be watching the perimeter of the camp when coming back from dealing with Braithwaite and yet he isn’t anywhere to be seen at all. And during Molly’s rant, you can see Micah’s face being visibly terrified at the situation because it puts him at risk of being caught. In anycase, Abigail wouldn’t do anything that would put Jack’s life at risk so while her being the rat is cool, I kinda don’t feel it’s the writer’s intention. 😉

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Some excellent points! I've spotted Micah being terrified during Molly's confession in a previous video. Seriously, though, that was an excellent comment, it gives me a lot to think about

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Can I just ask? Your first line... who admits they spoke directly to who?

@LovelessDogg1

Жыл бұрын

@@FilbeeGaming during the mission “blessed are the peacemakers” Colm mentions he was offered a price for turning Dutch in. Which is an odd thing to say to a gang leader that’s also on the run from the Pinkertons. Dutch asks why he didn’t take it, Colm just confirms that he could. Now, this “price” Colm mentions is so vague that it could mean anything that isn’t money. Milton has done the same to Arthur where he offered him something for Dutch while he was fishing with Jack. Something he did in person because at the end of the day, Dutch seems to be the biggest criminal they’re after. To me, Colm simply mentioning he was offered a deal means he’s talked to Milton in the same manner that Arthur has. Face to face. The only thing that isn’t really known is when this conversation took place.

I thought I was the only one who thinks Abigail is the real traitor of the gang if you really think about it about and watch how she acts about the gang members getting killed

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Agreed

I made a Reddit post about this a couple of years ago and got shot down. Whether it’s the case or not we can’t confirm but one thing that is undeniable is that Rockstar at least hint at Abigail/ and John being a rat. Dutch questions Abigail and Johns activities several times throughout the story.

Having Horsea die in front of the gang by execution - because he was already dying and asked Milton to do it so the gang would give themselves up - feels flawed. Horsea was wise and knew Dutch and the gang would lose their minds and seek revenge as they did. If Horsea wanted them to give up, he would have opened his mouth and tried to convince Dutch along with Milton. I feel like you’ve shown the story from Dutch’s perspective. He was paranoid that Abigail and John were going behind his back.

@s_dante5645

Жыл бұрын

What's your point

@moodyowlproductions4287

Жыл бұрын

It's funny...the pinkertons in this game like agent Milton go lecturer the gang about killing people and yet they do it themselves...strange world we live in huh

@Daemoarak

Жыл бұрын

@@s_dante5645 The second last sentence was my point

Bad take. They went after Cornwall who paid the Pinkerton’s to track them down. Then uncle had a mission that went after Cornwall again. The Pinkerton’s found them at Horseshoe Overlook, and Clemens Cove. The gang had massive shootouts in every town heading east. They attacked the biggest city around at the time and killed the mob boss who ran them. They got sloppy. Micah ratted after they got back from Guarma. Micah never denied he was a rat to Arthur when confronted by him during their final fight. And the Pinkerton’s knew right where Micah’s hideout was after American Venom. Milton had zero reason to lie. Arthur knew he was a rat, Micah knew he was the rat. Abigail wouldn’t have endangered John.

@killrelevantt1887

Жыл бұрын

Why would Micah not turn Dutch and Arthur into the Pinkertons when they went to kill Cornwall? Micah has two options , notify the HUNDRED guards and Cornwall and pinkertons about the two most wanted men after them and get paid. or Micah can risk his life fighting ONE HUNDRED heavily armed guards to help Arthur and Dutch get out safely? Which one seems like the Micah move if he was the rat?

@toddwynn3397

Жыл бұрын

@@killrelevantt1887 Micah wanted the Blackwater money and only Dutch knew where it was.

@kaydens6964

8 ай бұрын

Milton has no reason to tell the truth, he has everything to gain by turning the gang members against each other, in fact this is exactly what he tries to do throughout the game. Micah never admitted that he was the rat during his final fight against Arthur, which btw he has every reason to want to kill him after being framed as a rat by Arthur. Micah was there in every major shootouts against Pinkerton, you need to keep in mind that Abigail's bottom line is Jack not John, and Jack was the only one who was never in danger during those shootouts, he was never physically there.

I always look back at how easily john and abigail disappeared during the saint denis bank heist. Seemed very convenient that john got captured so easily.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I agree, but I still think John was oblivious to it all

@h.roosevelt6426

Жыл бұрын

Declining mental state Dutch would agree with you.

@ClaytonTheCracker

Жыл бұрын

Dutch moment, if John had betrayed them then it would've fucked the whole story in both games, plus he would've referenced it at some point in the epilogue

@jesussaves21

Жыл бұрын

It’s strange that when John gets shot, and falls off the train, that he wasn’t captured by the Pinkertons. Dutch says that he tried to go back and save him, but they were outnumbered and had to leave him. Why didn’t they kill him or arrest him?

Also if u think back to RDR1 Abagail was again in the Pinkertons custody so maybe she wasnt a traitor but dang she got caught ALOT and somehow always came back unharmed

This theory makes sense… add to the fact that when Arthur and Sadie go to save Abigail in Van Horn, after Milton sold out the first rat, she shoots Milton in the head before he can explain how he knew where they were and what they were planning before they got back from the Caribbean, it really makes sense.

@crapbag666

Жыл бұрын

Well Milton was trying to stab and kill Arthur. So not a good argument.

@cmertz30

Жыл бұрын

@@crapbag666 while true… she also could cut Sadie free first… until that point I don’t remember Abigail as having killed anyone in-game… he just happened to be the one person who could’ve exposed her?? And she had already witnessed what happened to Molly

Interesting theory, but there's a couple things I disagree with the interpretation on. First, when Arthur and Jack get back from fishing, I think she asks "what's wrong?" because of the way he says "we had a...good time" His pause made her think something happened. I don't think she set up the meeting on purpose. Secondly, I don't think Hosea was playing a part so much as he was getting caught, knowing he's wanted for a much bigger bounty than Abigail would be. I think he saw Pinkertons coming and told Abigail to leave while they captured him. Thirdly, I think the whole point of the main story of the game is that the gang robbing people like Cornwall and the rail companies put a massive target on their backs, as well as the events of Blackwater. I think the ambiguity of who was the rat only mattered until the moment Milton confirms it was Micah. It was just a device to establish tension and mystery and doubt. Why wouldn't Milton also tell Arthur about Abigail who's already in the room? If Abigail was cutting a deal for her and her family's freedom, why wouldn't she turn on Arthur in that moment and shoot him instead? Plus, while the Pinkertons do show up at convenient times before Guarma, it's after Micah gets picked up that they begin showing up to not just nearby, but at their hideout within days of them moving. Plus picking fights with the army and everything else. I think Abigail is an easy answer, but the real answer is the one Dutch could never accept. That the world didn't want him or his gang around anymore, and he accepts that by the end of the original game.

Some of what you bring up as evidence is that Abigail wants John to be a better father and is upset when he isn't. I'm not sure how that correlates. You mention how the Pinkertons show up to the Blacwater ferry heist and ask how they knew about the job. They might not have known about it. Accompanying valuable shipments was a function of the Pinkertons. They could have been there so quickly because they were already there to protect the cargo. Dutch's suspicion of Abigail and John doesn't equate to guilt either. Dutch came to suspect everyone, even Arthur. There is much more evidence that Micah is the rat, including Agent Milton saying it and Micah confessing to it.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, Michael wad the rat too. But the theory is that Abigail was the original one, and then the Pinkertons turned on her

@toddwynn3397

Жыл бұрын

@@FilbeeGaming Again, I don't see it. Wanting John to be a better father, no longer wanting to live in tents in the wilderness, and leaning on Arthur are not signs that she betrayed the gang. The presence of the Pinkertons can be easily explained without blaming Abigail. They could already in Blackwater because they were possibly hired to protect the cargo. They knew the gang was at Horseshoe Overlook because Micah was working with them that early. The gang was being tracked because they made an enemy of the very wealthy Leviticus Cornwall. The Pinkertons being at the bank robbery in Saint Denis was a combination of Micah being a rat and the high profile murder of Angelo Bronte. Your video was well put together, I just didn't find the argument very compelling.

@brittanycasto6829

Жыл бұрын

@@toddwynn3397 i think her wanting a better, safer life for her and Jack and for John to be a better father is the reason she could be the rat. She knew that it was never going to be possible if they stayed in the gang and she knew Dutch wouldnt just let them out also John was loyal to the gang so she did what she thought was necessary...

This actually makes sense; why do the Pinkertons take Abigail in part 1. Also Jack? My theory is because she has informed them before; usually during that time they have to have some form of record. Of Abigail informing: hence why Abigail is taken. Also Jack. The Gov knows John; they know he wants a normal life. But Dutch was right; they’ll find another monster after me.

You have fair points. There still are some things you didn't cover because they would contradict the theory. Abigail wanted to come and rescue John with Arthur and Sadie but they wouldn't let her. Why would she compromise herself if she knew Arthur and Sadie are more reliable to do it? Pinkertons got her at the end of chapter 6 and wanted to execute her. Why? They let everyone else escape because she was their priority (seeing as she was John's wife and figured they'd come for her) and that would've been a great trap to lure everyone in by the Pinkertons and Abigail if they were working together. But it's unlikely because she was tied up when Arthur arrived and she shot Milton (granted it was him of Arthur as they were wrestling with the gun) but I doubt she wouldn't have shot him anyways. I don't think they plotted that and Milton was really going to kill her. Doesn't help that he doesn't mention her when talking about the rat. He'd have no reason not to rub in Arthur's face about how he outplayed him. I don't know for sure if Micah ever confessed to being a rat. At first he denied it but later stopped objecting it stating he's a survivor and that's all there is. I believe Micah was a rat and that even though there is suspicion of Abigail being one as well there's no proof and are also big contradictions to that theory. My 2 cents on the matter, 🤠 have a good one

@georgg1996

Жыл бұрын

Maybe Abigail knew they wouldn't let her go to prison with Sadie and Arthur so she played the "hero" so that Arthur and Sadie won't suspect a thing.

@5445jedi

Жыл бұрын

Keep reaching and you’ll touch the moon, wolf boy.

@jocatorejenerico

Жыл бұрын

I agree.

@Kawaii-Munchkin

Жыл бұрын

In the theory he states that maybe Abigail stopped working with the Pinkertons after they turned on her as they planned to hang John which Abigail did not want. I believe she stopped working with the Pinkertons after the Saint Denis bank robery

@PappysDungeon45

11 ай бұрын

@@Kawaii-Munchkinand maybe that’s why they seeked another informant (Micah)

I've never been convinced that there actually was a mole before Guarma. In fact I think it somewhat undermines the whole point of the game's story if there was another mole as well as Micah. Which is that the Wild West is dying and the time of people like Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, Micah, and the rest of the gang is coming to an end in the relentless march of civilization. A decade, or even half a decade prior to the game's setting, it was perfectly plausible for a gang like Dutch's to make a decent living in the west but by 1899, there are just too many law enforcement agents with too much sophisticated infrastructure (such as telegraph lines and railroads) to make it possible. The criminal future belongs to those who can flourish in cities like Bronte in Saint Denis. One specific point I'd question is the fishing incident with Jack - a pretty big flaw is that Abigail doesn't suggest that Arthur going fishing with Jack, just that she does something with him, so she had no way of ensuring that Jack and Arthur would encounter Milton and Ross. I think its far more likely that they were scouting the general area, possibly observing gang members going to and from Horshoe Overlook by this point, and saw an opportunity to approach Arthur in a situation, as you say, where he was unlikely to assault them. I don't think its really indicative that Abigail asked Arthur to do something with Jack instead of Hosea - the old man can't do everything after all - nor is it suspicious that Abigail knew something was wrong but in my opinion, everything about Arthur's body language when they returned screamed 'something is very wrong'. (Plus Abigail is seriously on edge at this point, as her talk with Hosea demonstrates.) On reflection, my working theory is that the Pinkertons always had a rough idea where Dutch was - with a few exceptions like the immediate aftermath of the Blackwater robbery. That of course raises the question of why the Pinkertons didn't storm the camp? Well I do want to emphasise 'rough' - they knew that he was in the western part of New Hanover for instance rather than in 'Horshoe Overlook' and so on. Furthermore, Dutch has a devoted band of followers who will respond violently to any attempt to kill or arrest him, so a large force would be needed to deal with him. But of course the Van Der Linde is also effective at evading capture (as demonstrated after Blackwater) and while the Pinkertons are well armed and numerous, they can't absorb significant losses easily. (Plus having dozens of men mown down would be an optics nightmare for what is still a private corporation.) And as much as Blackwater was a disaster for the gang, it was probably also a major fiasco for the Pinkertons, despite them stacking the deck heavily in their favour. They still want to capture or arrest Dutch but doing it discretly via betrayal would serve their interests better. What changes the equation is the Saint Denis bank robbery. I think its worth emphasising that this robbery was radically different to anything the gang had ever done before, especially in scale and context. Its not the robbery of a small bank in a ranching town like Valentine or even somewhere like Blackwater but a major city (assuming Saint Denis is about the same size as New Orleans, it would be the 12th largest city in America in 1900) Put it this way - the gang's earlier crimes (such as the train robberies and the bank job in Valentine) probably don't register much beyond the south-west US - the odd story or penny dreadful based on Dutch might filter out to Europe but not much else. The Saint Denis bank job by contrast is almost certainly a major international news story - it would very likely be reported in the Times and other European newspapers. (Also chalk this up as another instance of Dutch not knowing what he is doing - there is no way the US government wouldn't try and pursue them in Tahiti after Saint Denis.) The more immediate point for the gang is that, in addition to Cornwall wanting their blood, the federal government, the Saint Denis city government and the Lemoyne state government aren't going to take this lying down, not to mention any wealthy private individuals who lost a lot of money in the robbery. I think we can safely assume that the bounty on Dutch and the rest of the surviving gang members skyrockets after this. This is all a lengthy setup what I think is a major change in the behaviour in the Pinkertons towards the gang after Chapter 5. Up until that point, they had either used setups/ambush or inducing betrayals among Dutch's subordinates to either kill or aprehend Dutch. After this point though, they start launching frontal assaults against the gang despite suffering heavy casualties both times they try. Presumably, at this point, the reward of capturing Dutch plus pressure from Cornwall and the government has grown great enough to encourage more reckless actions. Plus at this point they have Micah feeding them information, giving them a major advantage that I don't think they had prior to this point.

The reason I think John was captured because it was part of the deal with abigail to give up dutch, the way I see it, they used john as bait as abigail could have said dutch will more likely try to rescue John not realising dutch has come to some conclusion them two to him are the traitors, is probably why we see abigail going to dutch asking him to help john, I don't think they were gonna hang john & it makes sense why he was the only one not killed but captured, hosea I don't think he he died for those reasons... I think maybe he saw and knew to much while he was caught around abigail, maybe when he was caught and saw abigail he saw the pinkertons and Milton talking with abigail & maybe talking about their motives is why probably why Milton killed hosea. I agree I don't think john knew nothing about abigails roberts. She clearly wanted her family out of danger including her husband john. If you notice when they go strawberry she tells john to stop acting like a super hero comic book, an getting mad if does any violence because of the things she had to do to get where she is. I believe abigail roberts was captured by Milton as a deal for Milton as Milton's main focus is dutch and no one else really, how is abigail the only person caught out of everyone & randomly the pinkertons know where the hideout is once again. If you check the scene abigail doesn't even warn arthur about Milton's where abouts nor shows emotion or seems bothered she's captured, I believe Milton tells arthur that micah is rat because abigail most likely said arthur and micah don't get on and arthur is more likely to believe its micah so that way nothing traces back to her so her tracks are all covered, yes she shoots Milton which then will make it hard to know her real motivation, my three theories on that is either she shot Milton because sadies is there witnessing abigail. But in that sense you could fight back to say she could have easily killed sadies and arthur if so was the case which is true but who knows? Other one is she probably killed him because she thought maybe Milton was gonna spill out that she was the traitor to arthur again no proof with that one or maybe because she knew the pinkertons where going to go to camp & kill everyone on sight so she just excuted Milton and didn't need him after all. I am guessing when Ross noticed Milton was killed and micah was killed is why they captured abigail and made john get rid of all the dutch gang and also john himself & maybe let abigail and Jack go as abigail was helping them. But 95% chance abigail is the rat she has more reasons to be rat then anyone else, and if Milton claims he got micah after the carribean which is more likely a lie how did he know they ended up there? More likely abigail heard the convo when they came back and told all these to Milton and Milton just put twos together to make out like micah was the rat when it was abigail

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think we agree on most things there

@Alfreder28272

Жыл бұрын

Wow I never thought of how he knew they were on the island, that makes 100% sense

Also theirs proof someone tipped off the lawmen about the Scarlett meadows train robbery you can find an article in the valentine newspaper issue 28 saying lawmen were tipped off confirming someone was snitching right after the Pinkerton confronted Arthur

My theory is that Abigail is somehow connected to the mysterious man most people she came into contact with died or maybe the mysterious man is her brother

there's no second rat there may be clues like this that lead you to think like that but that's the whole point... the paranoia... not trusting the gang and being paranoid is exactly what changed dutch, so basically you're thinking like dutch, if there's a secret rat it kinda kills the whole point of Dutch's character arc bc I think the whole idea is he was trusting the wrong person and not trusting his "family". Micah was always only out for himself even before he became a rat he wanted to get close to dutch only to get his hands on the blackwater money and everyone but dutch could see he was shady... it's not Arthur's story just because we play as Arthur... it's the story of how Micah turned dutch from a genuinely caring and loyal leader into a paranoid mess... they didn't need a second rat Micah's loud approach and attitude was enough to lead anyone to them... we've seen what he does when the gang is near who knows what stuff he does when they aren't

I think Abigail was the rat up until the pinkertons scammed her and then the rest was Micah but then also Milton would have told Arthur when he was so confident that he was going to kill Arthur so I don’t really know… it would make a lot of sense though. I hope in the next game they answer questions like this some how like if the 3rd one was from jacks perspective there could be a prologue where it’s before Abigail dies and could confess it if it was truly her

4:21 this photo of Abigail made me realize how much Jack resembles her when he’s grown

this theory falls apart in the first couple points 1. the ferry job was set up by micah, he literally continously pushed dutch in that direction despite the fact that arthur and hosea had smt already in the works. i thought it was already known that michah was the rat the entire time. agent milton never said he became the rat after guarma, but that they merely picked him up after they returned at van horn. i honestly dont think abigail was, and given how dutch in chapter 5 and 6 tries to paint john, arthur, and abigail as traitors it feels more like an intentional misleading by the writers rather than any evidence

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

When Milton has Abigail at Van Horn, where he tells them that they picked up Micah after Guarma, and he's been a good boy ever since, this shows us that he wasn't with the Pinkertons before that

A very compelling theory… it’s what makes the game so real and incredible

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thanks John, I'm glad you enjoyed

Gavin is the traitor

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

No wonder they can't find him...

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

He's no where to be found when the going gets tough ....

Im scrolling through the comments and im surprised that no one is talking about how on Guarma, Dutch was going on about how he believed Abigail was the rat. And he was also using the point of John getting arrested proved it. Like how does Lenny and Hosea died, yet, John is just conveniently captured and let live. And not only that, but Dutch has also strongly pointed out believing that Abigail was slowly poisoning John against him to the point that John questioned everything that Dutch did. Although that 2nd point could be thrown up just to Dutch's speculation since Arthur began questioning the validity of Dutch's decisions too around the same time

@asadshahid9885

9 ай бұрын

Well Arthur did Start question decisions In the end because he at this wants to become a fairy and help everyone live because he couldn't live for long and you mentioned the poisoning line In your comment that was the Dutch said before killing Brontë when I played for the second time I founded out who was the rat

I think Micah was a rat longer than Milton says he was, or at least working to bring the gang down from within from the moment he joined. He’s always talking about being a survivor and is incredibly self-centred, not caring who he hurts or kills to get ahead so it doesn’t really sit right with me that he’d last long in a gang he isn’t in charge of, especially one as otherwise close-knit as the Van der Linde gang. Abigail and Jack have mutual love and affection for the gang, except Micah, who goes out of his way to be rude, condescending and outright threatening towards other members, Jack included. He never joins in parties or celebrations and only seems to join campfire conversations to insult or denigrate other gang members. Micah also constantly talks about “parasites” in the gang and the need to cut out dead wood, as well as the aforementioned antagonistic behaviour, writing it off as “I’m joking” (yeah, right) when seriously challenged for his actions. All the while he butters Dutch up and later starts to get in his ear, sowing the discord further. I believe he was such a prick to the other members was to both keep tensions high, which keeps people off balance, and also to be able to claim to Dutch they’re just jealous he’s rising in the ranks if anyone speaks out against him. Micah realised ingratiating himself to Dutch was an opportunity to make himself money / avoid the law but realises that the gang would soon see through him and his lack of contributions to both the tithing box and camp chores, and his general attitude to the gang in general, so he manipulates things so he can claim jealousy if questioned. He knows Arthur sees right through him so sets things up for him to be captured and hopefully killed, or at the very least handed over to the authorities. The O’Driscoll plan was to lure Dutch out and Micah saw this as a way to either take control of the gang or at least claim a share of the reward. Either way he needed Arthur out of the picture. Later on he could have realised the law was catching up to them and / or Dutch was losing the plot and so decided to cut a deal with the Pinkertons to save his own hide but I’m still convinced that, if not the Pinkertons, he’s working to bring down the gang from within at the behest of someone else.

Here's a video idea: Micah is actually the great-great grandfather of Kid Rock. I'm basing this purely on looks and personality. Tell me I'm wrong.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Love it

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

They should have a game based upon that.

@markmagician2471

Жыл бұрын

Or Trevor Phillips

If her big thing was starting a family with Jack and John, I don’t think she could’ve been ratting the gang out. Blackwater could’ve been her, in theory, but she knew John was on that boat and I don’t think she would be naïve enough to assume he would be kept free from harm. If she was, then she almost certainly wouldn’t have continued to rat out the gang after they shot John, as that was the opposite of what she would’ve wanted from a deal with them. The points are good, but I think the parts about John being kept alive are simply plot armor. Can’t kill the guy if he canonically survives for his own game 12 years after the events of this one. Dutch also accuses Arthur of betraying the gang, as early as chapter 2. I don’t think we, especially in chapters 5 and 6, can use him as a reliable source of anything. Everything is unraveling and it’s easy to blame the people who escaped worse fates than other gang members did. Had Arthur been the one to escape and John ended up on Guarma, I’m almost certain he’d say the same things about how it was weird Arthur got arrested instead of killed. It just doesn’t feel like Abigail would keep trying to get the Pinkertons to pay more attention to them, as they have promised they’d kill everyone and even if she made a deal to keep herself and her family safe, that’s not to say if they bring the amount they did at Beaver Hollow in ‘Red Dead Redemption,’ a stray bullet or two could hit her or John/Jack. The trail of carnage always kinda led back to them. They shot up Strawberry and the bounty hunters north of Blackwater, robbed a train in Ambarino, robbed another train in Scarlet Meadows and were chased by lawmen (again, John was on that job, though those weren’t Pinkertons), then they shoot up Valentine, and Rhodes, while feuding with two very powerful and vindictive families who easily could’ve sold them out once they outlived their usefulness, they go back to Valentine and rob a bank there, and now they’ve got the most powerful man in Saint Denis wanting them to go away. He tries to set them up and they shoot up the town escaping, I think at this point Bronte easily could’ve notified the Pinkertons for support, then now he’s dead and that’s another huge deal, and then they rob *another* bank. They couldn’t have made more noise if they tried. Your points are very well-constructed, and I do think they’re valid and it isn’t unreasonable, but it just feels like too much of a stretch when Occam’s Razor would simply suggest they were way too careless at every turn. The fact this game can even have me writing a thesis is an indictment on how amazing it truly is, though, and even more so that so many theories can be had with no way of confirming nor denying them.

Hosea did put on “take one for the team face” when he turned around and got shot .

Fair play, I nearly cried the first time I saw Hosea's death.

I think Molly could also have been a rat. At the point Arthur confronts Milton, Milton doesn't know that Molly is dead. It makes more sense for him to deny the allegation that she's the rat. I believe Micah is also a rat.

I think the rat was Cain on account of the timing of his appearance and disappearance.

I have yet to see an Abigail theory that doesn't amount to pro hoc ergo propter hoc. As of yet, the strongest evidence that's been provided is the testimony of a new and young mother who has a reasonable response to living the lifestyle of a criminal, homeless, vagabond, with a 4yr old son who's father denied him (effectively disparaging her honor), abandoned them for a year (when Jack would have been still deemed an infant), and who routinely puts his pride ahead of the well-being of the family. The simple and undeniable truth is that Abigail doesn't have to spy for Milton. She has multiple opportunities throughout the game to load up Jack and leave. By the end of Chapter 6, we find out that, not only can she leave while the gang is on the train job, she can take Dutch's stash on her way out. If we are submitting logic fallacies as foundational evidence, then I submit that a more likely candidate for the rat (if there is a rat) is Hosea Matthews. 1. The 1st camp that Milton tracks the gang to is also the 1st camp that Hosea recommends. 2. As seen in the provided clips, Hosea expesses a blatant dissatisfaction with Dutch's dramatic strategies. 3. Milton shows up at the camp outside Rhodes after Hosea tells Arthur that he was able to get a better than expected deal on flipping the government bonds. 4. Every job we do with Hosea consists of us assisting him with scams. This is because Hosea is a confidence man. Betrayal is literally what he does for the gang. My theory is that Hosea warned Cornwall about the Blackwater train job. He likely hoped that the increased security would curb Dutch's enthusiasm in favor for the big money scheme he and Arthur were planning. After things went tragically wrong, Hosea stayed on and tried to get Dutch to relocate the gang to somewhere more hospitable to folks like them.

I feel like it was just Bill getting blackout drunk and talking too much at local saloons

I thought this same theory as well. Glad to see someone else thought the same way. There was so many breadcrumbs leading to Abigail being the traitor.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

It's in the tiny details

Does anyone ever wonder if the Pinkertons approached other gangs to help dismantle the Van Der Linde gang? I ask myself why O'Driscoll, after so many years, suddenly thought using Arthur's captivity to trap the gang. This, of course, only sometime after the Pinkertons approached Arthur directly while fishing with Jack and realizing that he was loyal to the death. Maybe they thought his loyalty was a vulnerability for the gang. Not to mention, the mission which gets Arthur caught was set up by non other than Micah. I wonder if Micah was an undercover Pinkerton. That kind of trick doesn't seem like something O'driscoll could craft on his own. The Pinkertons are the crafty ones in this story. Or maybe it's just not that deep, and it is just a series of unfortunate events. Maybe the Pinkertons primary objective was not dismantling the remaining outlaw gangs at the turn of the century. Who knows? Good game. Edit: forgot to mention that Abigail sucks regardless.

My head is spinning!

14:38 - that sound melted my eardrums lol

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Apologies, it must have been a microphone issue

I don’t want to believe this theory at all, but it has a lot of good points made that make me not rule it out. Great theory great vid

I believe Micah is still the traitor

@MMD_16-95

Жыл бұрын

Maybe but not until he returns from Gurma

@crapbag666

Жыл бұрын

@@MMD_16-95 nope. He was the traitor the entire time.

I think John new bout it too, he continued to work for them in rd1. In there pockets like a true grass would lol. No need to continue this story for rd3 and they should go back further to see more of arthur.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the earlier days of Dutch, Arthur and Hosea, then maybe how the other gang members joined

@walkertoddy5144

Жыл бұрын

i personally would like to see the game from the perspective of mac callander, they have a lot of doors they could open since we know absolutely nothing about him

@s_dante5645

Жыл бұрын

​@@walkertoddy5144 probably the fuckin dumbest idea ever but hey whatever floats your boat

All valid. Never thought of her before. Based upon this video and what you said, I can see how she could have been the informant. She had motivation. Micah wanted the outlaw life to go on forever. He was an ass. However I disagree with you about her knowing something was wrong with Arthur after the fishing trip. But ... the one thing you perhaps left off was the the Pinkerton claimed Micah been a good boy to them but to perhaps divert from her as she was there in the cabin. Then she shot him. But why was she in the cabin? As a trap? Or maybe he didn't agree with cutting her a deal like his partner did.

Dutch not saving John isn’t a good enough reason because he does the same with Arthur. It shows that he is now out for himself.

did you intentionally put a list of mission titles in the background of parts of the video or was it an editing mistake? Easiest to notice at 7:53 and at 10:56 but can be seen with a keen eye throughout the video in certain spots, anyways nice video!

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

I used mods when creating certain videos, sometimes the overlay crosses I think

I absolutely agree with this bro. There is nothing a mother would not do for her child

Imagine milton said that Micah is a traitor to crash the band from the inside Also its strange how Milton didnt knew john name when he knows every little detail about the band members but nor john for some reason

Idk about that fishing trip thing. Abigails number one priority is Jack and if she had arranged the for Pinkertons to approach Arthur, she'd be betting her sons safety on Arthur keeping his cool. As small as the chances are of Arthur doing something violent infront of Jack, there's just way too many things that could go wrong. What if the Pinkertons took Arthur and left Jack there on his own? What Arthur thought "Fuck it' and started shooting? What if the Pinkertons thought "Fuck it" and started shooting? Too many ways for that to go south really fast for me to think Abigail would willingly put Jack in the middle of it without her there.

The gang didnt need a rat. I mean, do you rly think a ferry holding all that money would just be with no protection at all? Especially after ppl already seeing the gang sniffing about? (Jimmy Brooks for example). By the end of Chapter 4, the gang had a rampage through the city and assaulted a rich dude's mansion and killed everyone in it, it's pretty obvious the bank was a possible target. Micah probably did indeed rat them out at the end but they didnt rly need a rat. Dutch's plans were as ridiculous as they sound and pretty naive

@dwayneb1047

5 ай бұрын

Yep. Thinkng there was only one or two rats is asinine. Dutch was overly paranoid and thought everyone was betraying him anyway. He made too much noise and killed way too many people. Even before the game dutch was the most wanted outlaw at the time. He just fucked up too much its pretty much that simple lol

@audax117

5 ай бұрын

@@dwayneb1047 I mean, it's literally one of the main themes of the game. The outlaw era was coming to an end and organizations were getting way too good at tracking them down and killing em

Arthur: It all makes sense now

I really enjoyed your commentary. The thing I've always thought strange about 10:24 is Hosea turning around. Almost like he was saying "okay shoot me" because as horrible as Agent Miller was, he would not likely release a man and then shoot him in the back. There was no logical reason for Hosea to turn around, he would know in that tome period he would have been safer keeping his back to his enemy. As far as the law showing up fast. Go shoot a guy in the middle of nowhere and see how fast the law is after you. They have eyes everywhere!!! What a masterpiece a 5 year old game with no Updates or DLC still has such a dedicated player base. I love fan theory videos. There is No game I can think of has inspired so much content from theories, gameplay, tribute videos, and discussions.

@FilbeeGaming

10 ай бұрын

Appreciate that dude, I'm a follower of your channel too

I always thought it was Abigail while I was playing the game. After playing it i think there was multiple informants including Abigail and Micah. In fact at the end Dutch sides with Micah, a traitor and Arthur sides with Abigail, a traitor.

I think rockstar left some space for these theories on purpos. Makes the game more intresting when theres still mistery

Unrelated to Abigail being the rat, but it always bothered me how toxic she is. She’s so mean to John and I know she said some things to Arthur and probably other people around camp, I just don’t remember what exactly, but then she’ll act really nice and tell him how much she loves him. Classic manipulation. And then in the epilogue, she tells John she loves him and not to forget that but when he starts having to do his John Marston thing (fighting and killing), she gets mad, yells at him for protecting their new home, and eventually leaves him. So sure, she definitely loves him so so much🙄 the fact that she’s actually likable at some points just makes it worse for me personally

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

She seems to act like she's above the other girls too, Mary Beth, Karen, etc.

@TheThigh

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, John was an absentee parent for a long time; he straight up left Abigail and Jack for a year. So, she’s snide towards him early in the game, but as John accepts his role as Jack’s father, she warms to him and they begin acting like a family. Personally, i liked Abigail. She tried her best to give Jack a good life, consoled Sadie as best she could and was genuinely grateful when Arthur got Jack back and rescued John. I’d also chalk up her overreaction to John defending Pronghorn to be a casualty of the rushed epilogue. It didn’t really stand in line with her character.

@tinyprettymoon

Жыл бұрын

@@TheThigh yeah that’s true. He also refused to believe Jack was even his son for a long time so I can understand where she’s from but I just feel like she’s really harsh sometimes

@TheThigh

Жыл бұрын

@@tinyprettymoon True, she’s a grouch. But it made her character a lot more authentic and memorable. As much as i liked Mary-beth and Tilly, they sorta just melted into the background. This thread makes me sound like i have an Abigail body pillow…

@tinyprettymoon

Жыл бұрын

@@TheThigh lol I liked Mary-Beth tbh. I love Sadie too. They were some of the nicest in the gang to Arthur I think and I just like Sadie’s personality a lot so that makes her more memorable than Abigail to me

I think ppl look to much into Milton saying Molly wasn’t a rat. That’s just common sense tactics, or a worst a Hail Mary attempt to cause more issues. Not saying Micah wasn’t a rat, I actually think he was working with Colm the day he met Dutch and saved him. But cops will twist facts around to cause disruption in an organization.

What if John was the Real Rat. And Rdr1 was his redemption to his gang after betraying them while rdr2 is Arthurs redemption to be a much better man than a criminal.

I also felt the same based on missions when John was involved Micha was in jail during one of my playthroughs so the news paper reads someone tiped off the sheriff at that time Micha was still in jail on my game then I read the paper and she always gets away and john is ever only put in jail there always seemed to me that she was always pissed off at John and would no longer do what Susan asked so I have thought she was at least one and Person and Micha. but that is my two cents.

Abigail wasn’t a bad rat but I do think she is one but after they died I don’t believe it any more

I'm with you on that, John doesn't agree with Dutch with a lot of things but wouldn't betray him or the gang

@5VHIB5VHIBE5VHgb3tp

Жыл бұрын

He left the gang for a year. That shows he didn’t care even before everything Efd up. For Arthur it was a betrayal

@OmnistrikeRZ

Жыл бұрын

@@5VHIB5VHIBE5VHgb3tp but I mean he wouldn't rat everyone out to the pinkertons and get everyone killed. Abigail seemed to have a one track mind the entire game.

I never thought about Abigail being the snitch. But the things you pointed out do make a plausible argument. But when Milton tells Arthur that it was Micah all along that kind of discredits it for me. He is planning on killing Arthur, Sadie, and Abigail, so why would he bother lying? In his mind they would be dead in the next few minutes anyway. And what I've seen from Milton and his actions, he would have told them the truth in an attempt to add insult to injury.

@FilbeeGaming

9 ай бұрын

Micah was a rat, no doubt, I don't deny that. But this theory was looking at Abigail doing it before the gang got back off Guarma, and the Pinkertons brought Micah in

@Jennifer-jt9cb

9 ай бұрын

@@FilbeeGaming Like I said, you make a plausible argument. One that was quite entertaining, as well. The point I was trying to make was simply that Milton seemed to have changed his approach. Either way, I look ad Abigail in a whole new light now.

@FilbeeGaming

9 ай бұрын

@Jennifer-jt9cb Thank you

Every one forgets about the second train heist Mary Beth hears about while pretending to be a house girl in Valentine. John, Charles, Sean, and Arthur hit. John even asks Arthur if he thought it was a set up. So many so fast showed up in the middle of nowhere. Micah didn’t know about that train robbery.

@s_dante5645

Жыл бұрын

So what's your point bud

@GTAFUN7

Жыл бұрын

​@@s_dante5645 i think he wants to say that Abigail ratted them out.

Some desperate grasping at straws going on in this one. The reality is that Micah was causing Dutch to get sloppy. Micah was all about taking big risks for big pay, while Hosea and Arthur were smarter than that. But Micah was slick and knew how to tempt Dutch's ego, which is why Dutch slowly but surely begins to listen to Micah more than he listened to Hosea and Arthur. Even before Hosea's death, Dutch was getting fed up with his more careful approach. After Hosea was gone, Dutch started relying even more heavily on Micah. By the end Micah had Dutch right where he wanted him, and would continue playing Dutch until he couldn't provide him any more cash or anymore thrills. Once Micah was done with Dutch he would just get the reward money and get on with is rat lifestyle.

@charlesfurnari7777

Жыл бұрын

Micah was always out for himself and had no loyalty besides what someone could do for him.

@crapbag666

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. It’s grasping at straws. I don’t think abagail had anything to do with being a rat. She was loyal to the gang before having jack but then technically wanted out after having him because she wanted to give him a normal life. Nothing wrong with that.

Definitely not Abigail. ..because she could have told them how to find Dutch at camp knowing that Jack was safe away fishing with John......

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

What if there was a shoot out if they turned up when Arthur took Jack fishing? Her and John could have been, and Jack would have been an orphan. She wants all three of them to be safe and away from the gang

Dutch was working with the Pinkertons kind of like Frank Costello in The Departed keeping them getting funded by govt n business owners by committing crime but after the death of Cornwall Dutch pushed too far and after Arther meets Milton and Ross fishing, Dutch names one of them by name and another time Dutch says he has to write a letter… to whom?!? Everyone he knows is in the camp.

This is a good theory. I don't think all of it could be perfect and in tact. I dint think Hosea would give himself up. But to add to it, Abigail did not want John to create any new chaos wherever they lived. Even when John was with Jack and got shot at. Like was he not supposed to defend his family? Or even just doing bounty hunting with Sadie to pay for the house. It's as if she didn't want anyone to know where they are or who they were. Just always seemed suspicious, but played it off like it was John's fault he was getting shot at. Wanted a house, but couldn't even really use their own names.

But there's also a cut scene where anstanstia actually snitched to Milton about them but ur theory is a good one

Love the video man. I made a similar theory video on my channel a few weeks back as well. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this!

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Jigsaw, I'll give yours a watch today

i’m thinking it was all just micah or perhaps pearson, i mean he’s hardly talked to by anyone else, he makes it out okay and alive, with enough money for a business

It's a real stretch to think Hosea sacrificed himself, thinking the gang would surrender. That would get most of them hung. I like the video as a whole though 👍

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thanks brother, as I said, it's strictly speculation. But I'm glad you enjoyed

@thapoppyman

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that's the only thing I disagree with but everything else I can see happening. The big clue for me was when Milton said micah started talking after they returned from guarma. This theory Also kind of explains why Abigail and Jack were treated so well under Pinkerton custody in rdr1.

This is a nice peek but isn't as smooth as it sounds. For example, how would Abigail know that Arthur would take Jack to the exact fishing spot? Also, Hosea wouldn't dare sacrifice himself for the betterment of one family against the whole gang specially Arthur, Charles, Lenny who he was close to. On top of that he wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt that pinkertons would cut a deal even after his death. Every heist was supposed to be their last heist and they would have plenty of money to live a better life that Abigail had dreamed for. Dutch also told at some point during the Saint Denis heist that one could leave the gang if they want to. Either way they were going to make good money then why would Abigail intervene? Because anyone could have died even John or Arthur in the shootout and guess what John was shot. It could only be possible only if she wouldn't care whoever dies even Arthur who was helping her a lot except for John. But John was a part of the heist.

man... these cowboy mods for Among us are crazy

Interesting. Not sure I believe it, but very interesting. Agent Milton did say Micah became the informant after Guarma. So maybe. It could all just be plot holes by the writers, but very interesting nonetheless 😅

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, it all just theory and speculation though

There is lots of good evidence, perhaps the most compelling is the Saint Denis bank robbery, however, I do still think that because of Hosea’s clear compassion for her, there is still a chance she got out of there legitimately because Hosea could have sacrificed himself in order to save Abigail because of that compassion. On the whole, it’s a good fan theory but I doubt rockstar planned to make it seem that way but rather make it seem like she was the rat but superficially for you to disagree with it and save her and John and jack

Interesting. Haven’t we always thought that Judas is the one who betrayed Jesus but its not the whole truth. Maybe we are led to believed that Micah is the rat but who knows.

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's worth thinking about

I always wounder as if Jack was John’s kid

I am now with you I you have hit the nail on the head

@FilbeeGaming

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

It's a very complicated situation for all involved. And, jn my opinion, everyone is somewhat justified. Abigail is a poor mother who wants no harm to her family and is looking for a way to escape whereas, John, being the father, wishes to stay loyal to Dutch through most of the story. However, abigail will not leave without him. Hence why John is clueless. Dutch however, he makes good assumptions about abigail being the rat but mistakes John being one too, therefore treating him as one. John however knows he is not a rat and is confused as to why Dutch is treating him in such a way.

I don't think any of you understand basic narrative structure or storytelling in general. For one, how does Abigail being the rat serve the story or make any narrative sense? How would it fit into her arc? The story ultimately isn't the mystery of who betrayed the gang, but Arthur's redemption and John's rise. Micah being the rat, isn't supposed to be a bombshell because he serves the story as a foil to Arthur and John.

Lenny said he just about got away almost he is the rat

The part where abigale knew something was wrong when Arthur and jack got back I don't think she organised the way she says something wrong Arthur I think it's just motherly instincts she can just tell when someone is a bit off

Now I am wishing that John should have went with Bonnie in RDR1

Great video and theory. I believe you..................

Hosea was probably the original rat

Definitely this

I think the Abigail stuff is coincidence. I think Micah was an undercover attempt that went wrong. My reasoning is that in traditional westerns, the bad guys wore black hats and the law wore white hats. Micah always wore a white hat and white suits. I think he was meant to set them up at the Blackwater heist but enjoyed being an outlaw.

If your theory is right than this can give birth to the hottest of takes. Micah is completely innocent and the most loyal gang member. Maybe Milton told Arthur that Micah is the rat beacause he was still collaborating with Abigail and he wanted to hide the truth.

@asadshahid9885

9 ай бұрын

According to me Micah isn't a traitor Abigail is I think Micah is forcefully turned into a traitor that's the reason because rockstar wanted a antagonist villan he had all the personalities of villan just like Rockstar turned Ryder into a traitor for no reason in GTA SA just because his voice actor left they turned him into a traitor instead they should killed Ryder during green sabre mission the same they did with Micah

I doubt Micah was the traitor. I think they told Arthur that to cause friction amongst the gang members. I don’t think anyone was a snitch. I think they all just got sloppy

I think Milton could've known the bad blood between Micah and Arthur and tried to stoke the flames and cause disarray I'm not saying Micah didn't talk, but he is a very bad man, a murderer, so it makes logical sense Milton would want to cause a rift in the gang wherever possible to exploit and harm the gang to catch Dutch.

So...Micah used to carry around the WANTED poster of Dutch before the bank because Micah was afraid he'd forget Dutch's name?

I alwaysthought the pinkertons turning up during the fishing trip was, er, fishy. The Abilgail, er, angle (sorry) absolutely makes sense in that regard.

I think it just shows what a top game this is. You can probably interpret a load of things depending on how you play, how much time you spend at the camp etc. Hell, this is why they made 4 possible endings for Arthur 😮 I mean, for ages I was sure that Arthur was knocking Abigail off !! Every time I spoke with her at the camp I was sure that I could detect a little sexual tension between those two 🙄 For me, this game has kind of ruined gaming for me. I always compare every game with this one, and I find it criminal that this game is now 4 years old and no game developers out there have taken what Rockstar did 4 years ago and taken the baton and run with it. Especially considering the new consoles that came out recently 👍

@crimsonsamuraiftw

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure it was sexual, but there is definitely tension. Regarding how he says maybe he should've married her in his journal. Additionally gauging her reaction after Arthur came back from seeing Mary in Valentine.

I still believe what Arthur said was true, they were making too much noise and being too obvious.

@asadshahid9885

Жыл бұрын

After hearing this all theories Dutch's plans wasn't always bad expect his chapter 6 madness Dutch really had a plan which was ruined by Abigail but why rockstar didn't punished her in both the games rdr1 rdr2

@asadshahid9885

Жыл бұрын

I actually now I felt that Arthur just became to kind hearted that he spoiled Dutch's plan to indentify Abigail and John as a traitor Dutch wasn't such a bad man at the end of chapter 6 he had plans to capture Abigail