Who do you think told Lady Catherine about the rumours from Meryton? And do you think Charlotte Lucas/Collins is a ‘schemer’?

@PriyankitaPant

3 жыл бұрын

It has to be Mr Collins - Charlotte astute as she is about Eliza/Darcy may have something to her husband and he being an idiot just blurbs it.

@literaturmurks

3 жыл бұрын

@@PriyankitaPant Also he might be terrificly delighted about the prospect of being related to the esteemed Lady Catherine by his cousin's marriage to her nephew.

@heatherrobertson6110

3 жыл бұрын

There is always the possibility that Charlotte habitually shared her mother's letters with Mr Collins. If so it wouldn't then be possible for her to hold back this bit of gossip, even if she wanted to - and I do think that if Charlotte's loyalties were in conflict, as a dutiful wife she would always put her husband ahead of Lizzy. But yes, it would be Mr Collins who would actually do the deed and tell Lady Catherine. Also, while I certainly think John Sutherland was wrong in his description of Charlotte's motives, I wouldn't grudge (under-appreciated, clever) Charlotte a bit of 'Ha! I knew it' gloating!

@jedisam22

3 жыл бұрын

I always felt like it must have done the servant round and maid it's way to her lady's maid/ companion

@EmoBearRights

3 жыл бұрын

I think Charlotte did do it but she knew exactly what would happen and was doing it to help both her and Lizzie out but that said she does seem surprised and weighing up if this a good thing or not and decides it.

I always assumed it was Mr. Collins, if only because he never seems to shut up for a minute...

@edennis8578

3 жыл бұрын

Ikr? He blabbed everything about everyone to Lady Catherine, things that were absolutely none of her business. Imagine if he thought that Darcy and Elizabeth were secretly engaged when Lady Catherine was counting on Darcy marrying her own daughter! I'm sure he would see it as his duty to tell Lady Catherine.

@SmidBeach

3 жыл бұрын

@@edennis8578 Plus there was no reason for Mr. Collins to disclose Lydia's elopement to the de Bourghs. It's not like they live close by or are really in the same social circles. It's a gross violation of family privacy, and I read someone said it would also violate pastoral confidentiality as it existed back in the day.

@BrightWulph

3 жыл бұрын

Same, since he's such a simpering little man and how proud he is of his acquaintanceship with her, I wouldn't be surprised if she was using him to hear all of the gossips from the town.

@BrightWulph

3 жыл бұрын

@@SmidBeach Mr Collins is the type who doesn't seem to really care for pastoral confidentiality, especially since he believes himself to be of some importance because of his acquaintanceship with Lady De Bourgh.

@debra-vs

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

lol John Sutherland really looked at Lizzie and Charlotte's loving relationship and said, "women are so catty, I bet Charlotte wants to ruin her life." Like??? Someone help this man, misogyny has truly rotted his brain

@marianaprbr

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. There are no suggestions of animosity in the novel, it's hard to understand where he got the idea from, I mean apart from misogyny

@Didi_Online

3 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly! My only answer on how he got to that choice is misogyny.

@majedal-baghl4917

3 жыл бұрын

Perhaps just getting a book published with an attention-grabbing title and premise is Sutherland's true motive. A true misogynist would hardly deign to dip his nose in an Austen novel.

@saras123

3 жыл бұрын

I didn’t want to think about john sutherland as a misogynist since I don’t know the dude and haven’t read his book to understand how he came to this very questionable conclusion but has he read the same book we did😅 I mean how could he interpret the book, Charlotte or Jane in that way. Its an insult to Charlotte’s character and by extension to all women 🤦🏾‍♀️

@heatherrobertson6110

3 жыл бұрын

I absolutely love John Sutherland's 'literary puzzle' books - they are great fun, thought-provoking and a good way to get people to start thinking critically about literature. I think he was wrong in this instance, but please don't dismiss him completely on that account.

I’m not sure how one could not only misconstrue Charlotte’s character so badly, but also have the confidence to write an entire book on it.

@janetbean1994

Жыл бұрын

Sutherland's interpretation is the typical misogynistic view of female behavior - all negative.

@louisegogel7973

Жыл бұрын

I fully agree! It was clear to me that MR Collins was the conveyer of such information and conjectures.

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

It must have been a very short book. 😁

@shiprasen1042

Жыл бұрын

Charlotte was unique

@louisegogel7973

Жыл бұрын

@@susanscott8653 Perfect comment!

Mr. Collins is the hopeless, hapless gossip - his gossip tinged with malice. He wanted Lizzie to suffer under the knowledge that she missed out by not accepting his offer of marriage. I’m sure he would try to scupper Lizzie’s social/economic advancement over him. Charlotte certainly knew Elizabeth’s capacity for dealing with Lady Catherine. I think your interpretation is spot on.

@twinkiefaith1311

15 күн бұрын

Your comment taught me a new word. Thank you.

When a man tries to interpret a women writing for women, this is what happens, haha. He misses all the marks, writes a book about it, and then it takes another woman to set it right :p

I love the idea that Charlotte may have done it. The thought that she used Lady Catherine as a tool to push Lizzy and Darcy together is brilliant. Lady Catherine would have no idea she was being used by such an inferior person. Its almost as if Charlotte has punished Lady Catherine for being in everyones business. Ha!

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, hoisted by her own petard! Wonderful irony!

@BlackHayateTheThird

3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox No.

@Pennyinacobweb

3 жыл бұрын

That would be Austen’s style wouldn’t it? I can absolutely see Mr Collins bringing it up in an attempt to betray Elizabeth and Charlotte seizing the opportunity, never going against her husband in public but realizing that the news would make Lady Catherine react rashly.

@constancegraettinger8403

3 жыл бұрын

It was Mr. COLLINS without a doubt. Charlotte I believe could not stop Mr. Collina. Nor would she want to. Charlotte had nobler intentions for Lizzy to marry Mr. Darcy. But slain she would not have wanted Lady Catherine to be angry at either her or Mr. Collins if they had known but not warned her. Charlotte is easily the shrewdest character in the novel and may have 2 to 3 reasons for desiring Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth to marry. The noblest being concerned for Elizabeth's happiness and the least motive her and Mr. Collins advantage. Charlotte is one of my favorite characters of Jane Austen.

@heatheravello4053

3 жыл бұрын

That would be a delightful bit of reverse psychology

This Sutherland fellow seems like the kind of old man who would rather assume to pit two women against each other rather than actually read and understand the novel properly.

@annnee6818

3 ай бұрын

Men...

Only a man would assume that Charlotte would be bitter toward her best friend and betray her, or that she didn't know Lizzie well enough to realize that Lady Catherine's haughty attempt at controlling her would make Lizzie far more inclined to defy Lady Catherine than to do her bidding.

I never doubted it was Mr Collins. He pretty much admits it in his letter. But it wasn't a "betrayal", it was just Collins being himself - trying to please his patroness with his long-winded speeches about nothing.

@dovebarnett9626

2 жыл бұрын

I always thought it was him because he's such a kiss ass

@licoreen

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. He's a man who likes showing off how much he knows, and who better to impress than his Lady Catherine? No malicious intent.

@karenrapoport7852

2 жыл бұрын

Not only a pompous kiss ass but he also saw himself as Lizzys savior and superior. He told her as much when she refused his proposal. That she would not likely ever get such an offer again (her being the inevitable broke spinster with no prospects). He thought he could walk into her house and have his pick of the litter. He saw himself as Elisabeth’s superior and he never got over her rejection. And now come to find out she might be mistress of Pemberly and married into Lady Kathryns family?! There was no good-natured gossip coming out of his mouth he for sure thought Lady Catherine would put a stop to the supposed wedding. Meanwhile Lady Lucas was Lizzys BFF and loved her so why would she want to stop her friends happiness? She was never an emotional spiteful person to begin with she’s just very pragmatic she wouldn’t be jealous of Elizabeth not only coming up in the world as far as name and money but she would also will be happy that her friend was able to marry for love. I don’t even think she cared that much about what she could get out of Elizabeth marriage to Darcy after all Collins is still going to inherit Elizabeth’s childhood home when her father dies.

@susangallen4548

2 жыл бұрын

Yes Mr. Collins.

@nessapersad2076

2 жыл бұрын

He seems nosy

I always assumed it was Mr. Collins. But never felt any ill intent on Charlotte’s part as she and Lizzy were great friends.

@mindakahn9964

3 жыл бұрын

That was precisely my response. But when you think about it Charlotte is the savvy one. Collins is too self absorbed and dense.

@InThisEssayIWill...

3 жыл бұрын

I simply assumed Charlotte would have heard the rumor and repeated it to Mr Collins in everyday conversation out of disbelief "can you believe these ridiculous rumors!?" I have no doubt though that Mr Collins would be the one to whisper to lady Catherine "you'll never believe the slanderous rumors going around about your nephew" where it then escalates to lady Catherine freaking out

@debshaw680

3 жыл бұрын

@@InThisEssayIWill... oh he ran right over there as soon as he heard the news. Such an odious character.

@susannaseay4799

3 жыл бұрын

I totally agree..Mr Collins is always trying to engratiate himself to Lady Catherine. He is a small person always trying to make himself more important.

@thekingsdaughter4233

3 жыл бұрын

@@mindakahn9964 but whenever he has a piece of news, he has nothing better to do than to run over to Lady Catherine and blab about it. I mean, why oh WHY did he have to run straight to her and tell her all about the trouble with Lydia?! And him, a minister!! I suppose he never read Martin Luther's explanations of the Ten Commandments! ;-)

I wrote in the same way than Jane Bennett... No one wants to betray Elisabeth. As she does three or four times a year, Georgiana wrote to her aunt Lady Catherine de Bourgh to explain what a fantastic summer she had. The beautiful gift of a wonderful pianoforte, the acquaintance of a young lady named Elisabeth Bennett, so fine and so clever. Her brother always speak about her. But now Georgiana feel alone, her brother is gone to Hertfordshire... That night Mr Collins said do Lady Catherine that Mr Darcy was sawn twice in Longbourn. The sound of an alarm bell in the mind of Lady Catherine !...

Has Sutherland actually read this book? It seems perfectly clear throughout that Charlotte loves the idea of Elizabeth and Darcy. There might be some affectionate "ha, told you so" in there, but I never saw anything to suggest Charlotte was treated poorly by the two eldest Bennet girls, or that she blamed them for their mother and sisters.

@ky4864

2 жыл бұрын

Plus it also says she goes to Lucas lodge after Darcy and Elizabeth get engaged because she’s excited about the match and doesn’t want to hear about Collins and lady Catherine’s anger about the engagaement so??

@tomriley5790

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it does seem like a bizarre idea - Charlotte and Elizabeth have a good friendship throughout the book and Charlotte confides in her on occasions. To me it seems it's clear that it's Mr Collins his letter basically says as much, I don't really see it as a betrayal though - just him doing what he does and sharing everything he knows with his patroness.

@victoria139

Жыл бұрын

@@tomriley5790 Yeah I can just imagine Charlotte after they've left being like "Wow wouldn't Darcy and Elizabeth make a great couple" and then Mr. Collins later with Lady Catherine freaking out and repeating that sentiment because he ran out of things to say

@brubs2556

Жыл бұрын

I think this idea is probably less a product of the book, and moreso of the fact that women are so often pitted against each other, both in literature and real life, that to him their friendship could not be sincere

@astridafklinteberg298

Жыл бұрын

Men 🤷‍♀️

I am horrified that someone tried to besmirch the friendship between Charlotte and Elizabeth in this way.

@simonestreeter1518

3 жыл бұрын

Divide and conquer.

@srkh8966

3 жыл бұрын

No one betrayed anyone. Lady Catherine panicked when she heard about Darcy arranging the hastened marriage between Lydia and Wickham. Only someone who had an obligation to the family (as in arrangement) would’ve induced Darcy to intervene- in her eyes. She rushed off to Lizzy, because she knew she had no influence over her nephew

@firebrandsgirl

3 жыл бұрын

Yup. Charlotte wasn't resentful. She was always practical. Not romantic. She was kind and loving and smart. She knew who she married and why she married him. She did better than she thought. Her husband was a respectable land owner who she could control. And he adored her. You almost can't ask for more. (DO you know how hard it is to get a man to do what you say? LOL) He might have been tiring to us. She just needed to keep encouraging him to take walks and look after the ducks. Charlotte was going to have a good life. And He was keep moving up in society. Just like her father. People often forget that Charlotte was out there making gaining. And she was pregnant.

@calags

2 жыл бұрын

@@firebrandsgirl Best thing Mr. Collins ever did in his life is marry Charlotte. Looks like he's going to be very successful in spite of himself.

@slcRN1971

2 жыл бұрын

@@calags : yes, since she knew a lot about budgeting and earning a living by intelligent management, from her own home life with her parents (before marrying Mr. Collins). Charlotte would be such a great asset to her husband, when Mr. Collins does inherit, after Mr. Bennett’s demise. I would not be surprised if with Charlotte ‘helping’ Mr. Collins run that estate, turns it into an even better living for them. If they have a son, he would most likely be a successful heir.

Charlotte shipped Elizabeth and Darcy from really early on. I'm completely on board with this proposed scheme that Charlotte pulled a reverse Uno on Lady Catherine AND Elizabeth, but with her friend's best interest in mind. If Charlotte is bitter about anything, it's about having to suffer Lady Catherine's company so frequently and I imagine this was likely a very satisfying outcome to her.

@ellie698

3 жыл бұрын

EXACTLY 👏

@wendyorange1231

3 жыл бұрын

Reverse Uno! 😂😂

@athag1

3 жыл бұрын

Best thing about it is that Charlotte gets her revenge on Lady Catherine in a way that will leave Her Ladyship forever unaware she’d been used like a puppet!

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

Charlotte doesn't seem to have cared about having to be polite to rude people. Otherwise, she wouldn't have married Mr. Collins. He was constantly talking about Lady Catherine long before Lizzie turned him down.

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

@@athag1 Actually, Charlotte owes Lady Catherine a debt of gratitude for ordering Mr. Collins to get married. Lady Catherine is nosy and interfering, but she did a lot for Mr. & Mrs. Collins.

Charlotte probably also saw Mr. Darcy’s patronage as a way to get herself as far away from Rosings as possible. Mr. Collins was merely irksome. Lady Catherine was meddlesome. Charlotte couldn’t even choose what cuts of meat to order up for dinner, which servants to hire, or the arrangement of her own closets.

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

Good point. Amen. Amen. Lady C is worse than a mother-in-law. She demands full control of everyone else's life. Charlotte's husband grovels to the woman. Her wish is his command. Charlotte will eventually move to Longbourne. Is that far enough away? Will Darcy's marriage to Charlotte's friend somehow help break Charlotte's chains? It is one thing to marry a buffoon, but quite another to have some other woman mandate how you fold his socks.

I never once even considered Charlotte as “bitter” or out to get her friend until this video and saw some guy had a whole theory about it. I had no idea anyone could’ve thought that Charlotte was spiteful at all. In the book it clearly states they are friends, at beginning and end. And the first thing that came to my mind on this subject was that JA specifically wrote that Charlotte rejoiced in the match. How does one get the idea of spite from that?

@reikun86

Жыл бұрын

I never got that impression either. The tyrannosaurus arms some of these people have.

@susie2251

Жыл бұрын

Misogyny. That’s the only thing I can think. Someone has spun a fantasy in their head of a bitter, scheming woman who would betray her friend for no reason. To think that after reading the text, which never hints at anything like that, implies to me that he was predisposed to think a woman capable of it.

@charlesiragui2473

Жыл бұрын

If anything, it is Lizzy who questions their friendship due to Charlotte's decision to marry Mr Collins. Charlotte is steadfast in maintaining their friendship. Charlotte is clearly portrayed as a conservative figure who makes the best of her situation. She is not an envious person who believes that she is due more.

@charlesiragui2473

Жыл бұрын

@@susie2251 Projection? Maybe Sutherland is a bitter, envious, viperous personality himself, so he imputes these same motives to others.

@massimocosta8533

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. I would also add that it is not rare to hear men expressing their firm belief no such thing as a real sincere friendship between two females can ever exist in this world. The author of this extravagant suggestion of Charlotte being maliciously scheming against her friend's prospective marriage must be one of those men. What an idea, indeed! " Singular", - as a certain Mr. Hurst ( who preferred cards to books) exclaimed 😉

Even reading this in 1963 as a 13 year old, I assumed the snitch was Mr. Collins. He was so dependent on Lady Catherine for his livelihood, he would have thought his tale-bearing would gain him brownie points with Lady C.

@rkhound247

2 жыл бұрын

I had a nice chuckle at your description of Mr.Collins as a "snitch." 😁

@fece2195

2 жыл бұрын

lol same. That’s definitely the impression you get from the BBC portrayal as well. Collins gets points from Lady Catherine and gets a bit of revenge on Lizzy. I had no idea there were other theories, let alone Charlotte as the snitch. Idk maybe Sutherland thought he was being clever

@reikun86

Жыл бұрын

That snitch ended up making everybody happy (except Lady Catherine.) Good on 'em.

@dawnkindnesscountsmost5991

10 ай бұрын

Instead, Lady CdB became so enraged at the idea, that Willie & Charlotte had to get outta Dodge & hide out at Charlotte's parents' for a while! 😂

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

Congratulations. Apt assessment at 13, brownie points for the snitch. I think he was also aching for a chance to get back on Elizabeth for rejecting his proposal. He could scarcely contain his glee when Lydia ran off with Wickham. For a man of God, Collins is the most vindictive and spiteful soul in the book. Review the double wedding at the end of the HBO miniseries. Mr. Collins stands in the pew with a very sour look on his face. Charlotte stands beside him watching his expression with a worried look of her own. Elizabeth wounded his vanity. He has tried to make her declare that was a mistake. But here she is rising far above him in rank, marrying into a family that Collins has been groveling to for lo these many years. That's a whopping pill for him to swallow and I hope he chokes on it.

Justice for Charlotte!!

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Ha!

@ritan2

3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox The idea that Charlotte betrayed Lizzie is really disturbing to me because it undermines one of the most compelling parts of P&P and pretty much all of Austen's novels - the value of the love and friendship among the main women of the story and how it gets them through the difficulties of female life. Sutherland's theory undervalues the sisterly love between Lizzie and Jane and the friendship love between Lizzie and Charlotte (and as well by implication the sisterly love between Jane Austen and her sister Cassandra). But I think there is little to no evidence to support a theory in which Charlotte betrays Lizzie. In addition to being at odds with what Lady C and Mr Collins actually say in the book, it is simply not consistent with Charlotte's character and their friendship as portrayed in the book.

I love that line, "Charlotte's degree of contentment, to understand her address in guiding, and composure in bearing with, her husband..." because that's the perfect way to describe Charlotte's relationship with Mr. Collins. She's the one that guides and handles him. Mr. Collins believes that it's his societal and spiritual duty, both as a man and as a cleric, to guide his wife, and yet he's so clueless that he doesn't realize that she's the one who guides him. I also hadn't thought before how similar Mr. Collins and Sir William Lucas are in personality, but that explains how Charlotte is able to manipulate Mr. Collins; she is very observant and an excellent judge of human character, but she's also an expert on that particular character.

Definitely Mr Collins. Charlotte Lucas is the real MVP of the book. She saved Elizabeth from being pressured into marriage with Mr Collins by marrying him herself and choosing to marry a man that she could control quite easily and tolerate for the rest of her life. And she knows Lizzie's personality well enough to keep an eye out for any men that would suit Lizzie as a potential husband. Honestly, this analysis just makes me cheer Charlotte even more.

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

I do not think Charlotte wed Collins to rescue Elizabeth but for her own advantage. She knew full well Elizabeth could never accept him. Charlotte never aspired to romantic love, but merely a comfortable home and a reasonably decent man who would not abuse her. What Charlotte did fear was loneliness. Elizabeth was her dearest friend. She knew Elizabeth would feel Charlotte had married beneath her and this was true in many respects. In this, Elizabeth had underestimated Charlotte, not realizing how skillfully Charlotte would be able to navigate and compartmentalize her life with Collins. Charlotte manages her husband but they are not friends and she defers to Lady Catherine only to please him. That is a lonely life for Charlotte no matter how well she thrives in solitude. Charlotte needs Elizabeth nearly as much as Elizabeth needs Jane. Charlotte needs the occasional sense of perfect connection with another human being and with all the rest she is content.

@AkireMaru

3 ай бұрын

You’re still failing to connect the dots between how Mr. Collins would have received such information, as it was not generally known that Darcy had an interest in Elizabeth and several people who knew them would have overlooked the extent of his interest given the difference in “birth by rank”

Charlotte has the upper hand over the Bennets when she marries Mr Collins, she has no need of revenge. Jane Austen is clear that Charlotte is delighted by the match.

I don't see Darcy ever giving the living to Mr. Collins. Darcy has too much sense to let someone with so little of it be in charge of one his parishes.

Also, Charlotte mentions early on that Darcy looks at Elizabeth a great deal, and warns her not to slight him without cause.

It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to figure out it was Mr. Collins which the text literally explicitly states. But I like that Charlotte would have calculated the ultimate ending of Lady Catherine’s interference and maybe taken some steps to galvanize her even more to act. Throughout the novel, she is by far the most perceptive, the most calculating, the most pragmatic, and the most intelligent character. Can definitely see her out thinking her husband and her benefactor and then making them believe it was their idea all along. She is the Queen Spider at the center of the web … 😅

@saliadee2564

8 ай бұрын

Charlotte's web, no less 🙃

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

@@saliadee2564 Delightful

I would have thought that the single phrase "Although really rejoicing in the match" was sufficient to prevent anyone seeing Charlotte as "embittered" or "spiteful" towards Elizabeth. Surely the author herself has told us what Charlotte's feelings are.

@harringt100

3 жыл бұрын

What's the rest of that sentence? (It's been awhile since I read the book.)

@annemusekamp336

3 жыл бұрын

@@harringt100 it’s in chapter 60, in the same paragraph that Lady Catherine finds out about Lizzie’s and Darcy’s engagement

@klhaldane

3 жыл бұрын

@@harringt100 "Lady Catherine had been rendered so exceedingly angry by the contents of her nephew's letter [telling her of his engagement to Elizabeth], that Charlotte, really rejoicing in the match, was anxoius to get away till the storm was blown over." The text goes on to say that Elizabeth meets with her friend "with sincere pleasure" which also hardly fits with a nasty Charlotte.

@1fergus1garlic

3 жыл бұрын

It's an absurd idea, as your quotation makes clear. Charlotte is also eager to believe Mr. Darcy in love with Elizabeth earlier in the Novel. When Elizabeth is visiting in Kent prior to Darcy's first proposal, we have the following quotes: “'What can be the meaning of this?” said Charlotte, as soon as he was gone. “My dear Eliza, he must be in love with you, or he would never have called on us in this familiar way.' But when Elizabeth told of his silence, it did not seem very likely, even to Charlotte’s wishes, to be the case;" or "Mrs. Collins knew not what to make of him. Colonel Fitzwilliam’s occasionally laughing at his stupidity proved that he was generally different, which her own knowledge of him could not have told her; and as she would have liked to believe this change the effect of love, and the object of that love her friend Eliza, she set herself seriously to work to find it out:"

@OkGoGirl82

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, exactly. My first thought was of this line at the end of the book. It states perfectly clear that Charlotte is for the match, not against it.

I think the text makes it clear that Mr Collins was the one to report rumours of Lizzy's engagement and as you point out there's little Charlotte could have done to stop Mr Collins from passing the report on, short of poisoning his tea ;)

@himbo754

3 жыл бұрын

"My dear, your tea is ready. I made it especially for you."

@jmarie9997

3 жыл бұрын

She wouldn't do that until she had the heir and the spare.

@jenniferh3587

3 жыл бұрын

He knows immediately (and tells everyone) about Lydia running off. Which is how the great countess knows when yelling at Elizabeth. I just assumed he'd done the same with that.

@debra-vs

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed!

@srkh8966

3 жыл бұрын

The combination of Georgiana’s report of Eliza’s visit to Pemberley (which Austen’s audience at the time would’ve assumed without being told) and the Collins’ information about Darcy arranging Lydia’s marriage would’ve been seen by Lady Catherine, or anyone else, as an obvious attachment. I never thought it was any type of betrayal-Darcy is a grown man of independent wealth and can make his own decisions. If anything, Charlotte may have been thrilled to take Lady C down a peg.

What I love about Jane Austen’s writing is that she never really pits women against other women. She could have easily done so several times in P&P, but instead she didn’t. It’s super refreshing! Also, Sutherland really needs to reread the book, because Charlotte and Lizzie are bffs and their characters don’t seem the type to backstab each other. It’s been a while since I read the books, but even I knew 🙄

@dieterdelange9488

Жыл бұрын

True, she does not pit them against each other, but she certainly contrasts them. Elinor Dashwood: calm, intellectual, lady-like etc., vs Lucy Steele: vulgar, shallow, uneducated; Fanny Price being the complete opposite of Mary Crawford, etc. But she does it with most of the men as well.

@trellises

Жыл бұрын

Have you ever read Austen? It's nothing if not full of women treating other women with utter contempt.

@mslilly1860

Жыл бұрын

Well, she kind of does with Ms. Bingly, but she's just awful anyways.

@roelin360

Жыл бұрын

Idk I feel like there isn't a single book where women aren't competing in some way over a man or over status, besides Northanger Abbey.

@marquitaarmstrong399

Жыл бұрын

Good point.

Yes. Mr Collins gets another ATTA-BOY every time he’s able to offer gossip to Lady Catherine!

I'm a little surprised at how all these critics attacked Charlotte Lucas. From how she was portrayed in the BBC series, if Charlotte did "scheme" to get Collins away from Elizabeth and to marry her instead, I cannot think of a more selfless act of friendship. Even before Darcy came along, she did Lizzie one hell of a favor.

@julieletford5695

3 жыл бұрын

But Elizabeth never wanted Collins.

@Lazarus1095

3 жыл бұрын

@@julieletford5695 Doesn't that just support my conclusion?

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

​@@julieletford5695 I don't think Charlotte would have done it if she thought Lizzie wanted him. That would have been malicious.

@PaulaSB12

Жыл бұрын

She knew Elizabeth didn’t want him but he gave her the chance of a life other than that of a poor relation. Marriage to him would give her financial security and status. She would end up being the mistress of the Bennett’s home

I was shocked to find out that people not only believed Charlotte told Lady Catherine, but that her motive was spite. I always thought Austen made it clear Mr. Collins was eager to spread any kind of gossip. It was a way he could be of worth to his patroness.

@AveryMilieu

3 жыл бұрын

I suspect John Sutherland of being a closet misogynist.

@belindamay8063

Жыл бұрын

@@AveryMilieu On this evidence alone ? Let’s not be diverted by a hunt for villainy in the real world. Not here. The man could just be mistaken.

I just finished re reading Pride and Prejudice yesterday (in spanish because I'm Mexican) and it never occurred to me that someone doubt that Collins was the "traitor". Like even if it wasn't mentioned or hinted at WHO ELSE WOULD BE SUCH A SNITCH?!

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

True. This reminds me of the discussion between Jane and Elizabeth. They debate whether they should reveal Wickham's misdeeds. They both decide against it though it would make some juicy gossip. The ladies concluded the information could help nobody but could hurt Wickham to no good purpose. Collins seems to be the one character who most enjoys spreading gossip and bad news.

I agree with you entirely. Unfortunately for Charlotte’s hopes, I doubt that Mr. Darcy would ever inflict Mr. Collins on his tenants or himself.

This is absolutely brilliant. I'm entirely convinced by what you say, and indeed wonder how Sutherland could have got it so wrong. So many clues in the text, and what's more, it's a weird misreading of Charlotte's character. We know she's unromantic, and a bit of a schemer, and well capable of including a bit of rational self-interest in her assessment of how things are and what to do. But there's not the slightest evidence of malice or bitterness in her character, or of any rift between her and Lizzy.

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you Phil - glad you enjoyed it!

I always thought it was Mr. Collins. He is such a gossip and always looking at ways to make himself look more important than he is.

@rachelcrawford1977

3 жыл бұрын

I also have no doubt he reads her letters dude was willing to get gossip anyway he can. Plus he was always willing to get involved in things that are none of his business.

@rebuiltgirl3263

3 жыл бұрын

Mr. Collins is a gossip who doesnt realize that he is a gossip. Charlotte could have told her husband and Mr Collins could have relayed the information to Lady Catherine

Anyone that has read the book knows that the Lucases told the Collins of the match. When Mr Collins writes to Mr Bennet he says that he has heard about Elizabeth and Mr Darcy from the same source he heard about Jane and Mr Bingly. And you know he went running the Lady Catherine the minute he read it.

I do think it is a bit harsh to call Charlotte a schemer. Certainly she was no more a schemer than the vast number of mothers and daughters in her circumstances who needed to find a husband (for the daughter). She only "went after" Mr Collins when it was clear that Lizzie wouldn't take him.

@belindamay8063

Жыл бұрын

@kathy Turner. Relying on memory - Charlotte had no time to go after Mr Collins. It seems he grabbed her immediately after Lizzie rejected him. I remember being shocked at the speed of his turn-around.

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

@@belindamay8063 One of the other Bennett daughters sees Charlotte and relays the news that Elizabeth rejected the proposal. Charlotte suggests inviting him to the Lucas home for dinner so people can have some distance. The daughter approves and says something like "Yes, yes, take him away and feed him." I think that encounter started the wheels turning in Charlotte's mind. She saw to it he was fed and then wed.

I always thought it was Mr Collins due to the way he just like to hear himself talk. and not doing it out of revenge or malice, I think he just basically ran his mouth to Lady deBourgh

@adorabell4253

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. Mr. Collins doesn't come off so much malicious as someone who lives to spill the tea. Dude LOVES drama, as long as it's happening to other people.

@elenachristian9860

3 жыл бұрын

Oh I think there was a tiny bit of spite there. Lizzie rejected him, remember.

@a.westenholz4032

3 жыл бұрын

I think that's an interesting question; is Mr. Collins spiteful? I tend to think not. Foolishly self-important and vain, pompous, and all that, but he lacks the understanding of other people to be spiteful. To be spiteful you need to do something with the deliberate understanding of how that will impact that other person. Mr. Collins as character is rather described as someone completely lacking that awareness of other people. Or of how other people might see him. So yes, I do believe he would tell Lady Catherine any rumour he might think she would want to hear without any thought to the consequences other than Lady Catherine would be pleased with him for doing so. And that would be his only concern. Pleasing Lady Catherine is his main concern in life after all.

I've always assumed it was Mr. Collins. Charlotte did not even come to mind. She had always been on the Darcy & Lizzie ship.

@brianatford6603

3 жыл бұрын

She was captain of the ship for like have the novel. Eventually Jane signs on as first mate! haha

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

It was to Charlotte's advantage for Lizzie to marry Darcy. She made it clear enough what she thought about the advantages of connection to Darcy were. She never had a chance with him, but she could still benefit from the connection through her friend, Lizzie. As long as Lady Catherine doesn't know about her opinion, which she was unlikely to reveal, there isn't a downside.

@slcRN1971

2 жыл бұрын

I just can not even imagine that Charlotte would have acted in any derogatory manner towards Elizabeth. She invited her to make a visit and they really cared about each other!!

I love the idea of Charlotte telling her loquacious husband untrue intel about how far along Lizzie and Darcy's relationship is, pushing them together through the Lady's disapproval lol. It makes me think that Charlotte is happy in the little life she carved out for herself since she knows their natures so well.

One mark of a great novel is that readers believe it real and attempt to fill holes in the plot. Asking "Who betrays Elizabeth?," when Austen has not told us, only makes sense because we're entered so deeply into her tale that we regard it as we do events in our own lives. For every effect, there must be a cause.

@belindamay8063

Жыл бұрын

@Michael W Perry. That is so true. It is the very mark of a great artist. We have been intrigued by Shakespeare’s inventions for 400 years.

I find your analysis far more compelling than John Sutherland’s hypothesis. I do not for one second believe Charlotte to be an embittered woman, she’s far too pragmatic. I always thought Mr Collins was the one to tell Lady de Bourgh. I did not notice enough the close relationship Sir William and Mr Collins enjoyed to think Sir William was the source of information. I assumed Maria was the one telling charlotte and her mentionning it to her husband, but that left me insatisfied. Charlotte would not be so careless as to mention it to her husband without knowing there would be no force on earth that could prevent him from immediately running to Lady de Bourgh to tell her. But the idea she could have anticipated Lady de Bourgh’s reaction and saw it as the most effective way to push Lizzie into Mr Darcy’s arms is both extremely enjoyable and fitting to the character. She was, after all, right about Jane not showing enough interest in Mr Bingley.

@judemac5602

3 жыл бұрын

Love this interpretation

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly, I agree. Charlotte is pragmatic. And let's face it, given that she is shrewd and intelligent, and has been used to the company of Lizzy, having to spend so much time with Lady Catherine must grate. I pleasingly read Charlotte's comment that Lady Catherine is "a most attentive neighbour" as one of the driest observations in the whole novel.

@johnpepple3456

3 жыл бұрын

I too thought it was Maria Lucas who started the rumor. If she didn't notice Elizabeth and Darcy dancing, she probably heard about it from Charlotte. And she was present when Charlotte thanked Elizabeth for being the reason that Darcy visited her house with his cousin. And then she must have heard (from Kitty) that Darcy had accompanied Bingley to call on the Bennets when he hadn't visited the Bennets before. And she probably noticed Darcy hanging around while Elizabeth poured coffee at the dinner the following Tuesday. So, she communicated the latest news to Charlotte, who told her husband, who told Lady Catherine. I can't say I thought very much about the reasons why Charlotte told her husband or why her husband told Lady Catherine. It just seemed rather natural.

@rachelhamm19

3 жыл бұрын

I always assumed it was Maria, too, but after hearing this analysis, here's what I think the chain was: (1) While staying with the Collinses, Maria picks up on some of Charlotte's suspicions RE Darcy and Elizabeth. (2) once Bingley and Darcy return to Longbourn, Maria muses to her mother or other siblings about what she'd heard/observed (3) Sir William overhears this, or Lady Lucas mentions it to him. (4) Sir William writes to Mr. Collins, exaggerating/expanding on the idea (5) Mr. Collins rushes to inform Lady Catherine. I like to think Charlotte would encourage him telling Lady Catherine for her own schemes (as she really does seem to want Elizabeth to marry well, plus she likes the idea of connecting to someone of greater patronage), but I also think it's probable Mr. Collins rushed to tell Lady Catherine before Charlotte knew anything about it, simply because that's the kind of gossipy, brown-noser he is!

@annemiekgroot9737

2 жыл бұрын

I am not certain about the role of Maria. She was still quite young (16, I believe), and in my eyes still a bit naive and impressionable. I always assumed lady Lucas (who likes to gossip and does this with her neighbours, as well as with mrs. Bennet - mentioned in the 2nd chapter I believe, by the introduction of the Lucases), writing to her daughter and mr Collins, and them talking about the letter at the diner table. Sir William Lucas is also possible as the writer of the letter, but he did seem to be less of a gossiping person. He is all about his dignity after all. However, ever before Lizzies stay in Kent Charlotte did notice a partiality. (The evening at Lucas Lodge, where Lizzie sings, she mentions something like it.) Also, I believe it was the same occasion that sir William Lucas proposes Lizzie and mr Darcy dance together, which Lizzie refuses and mr Darcy accepts, despite his dislike for dancing. (Every savage can dance.) So, in Meryton there were probably more who also had noticed this partiality, just like Charlotte had. It is entirely possible that they already thought the marriage a possibility after Janes engagement to mr Bingley the first time. (I mean that they thought it probably already before the Netherfield Ball, but thought it would happen some time after Janes engagement.) For me, this line of observing and thinking is still a bit much for Maria. She can have mentioned about them seeing mr Darcy in Kent regularly, but this would have happened in all innocence. A bit like how I would assume Kitty would mention this.

I read Pride and Prejudice for the first time when I was fourteen. I always assumed Charlotte's parents wrote her of the rumor, and she innocently told Mr. Collins who in turn told Lady Catherine. He was always doing everything he could to ingratiate himself with her.

It's crazy that anybody could think what Sutherland wrote if they had actually read the book. I've read this book over 10 times over the course of years and though I'm no literature expert, what you are saying is simply restating what's obvious. One thing that's constant throughout the book is that Charlotte cares a lot for Lizzy and considers her a good friend. That never changes! Charlotte never has a reason to be angry at Lizzy; I mean, Lizzy helped her by rejecting Mr. Collins (thus causing Mr. Collins to get interested in Charlotte). Then what is there for her to get revenge for? Seriously, people don't even think.

@valkyriesardo278

5 ай бұрын

As a woman, I do freely admit the female mind can resemble a plate of spaghetti. It can be a tangle. Charlotte does have one reason to resent Elizabeth, for her friend's revulsion to Charlotte's marriage. However, she does not. Charlotte is more afraid her marriage will lose her Elizabeth's friendship as a consequence of lost respect. The two women mend the breach when Elizabeth comes to visit. Charlotte manages to reassure Elizabeth that the marriage was a most deliberate choice with acceptable compromise in which she is most content.

I always assumed it was Mr. Collins. I also find your analysis on point. Austen has created a complex character in Charlotte. On the one hand, Charlotte doesn’t always feel that Lizzie is taking her seriously which annoys her. But Lizzie is still a more important and valued human being to Charlotte, which is evident from her happiness at having Lizzie visit. The relations Austen presents are multi-faceted, complex and consequently far more realistic than those in earlier authors. We have to recognize that BOTH Darcy and Lizzie needed to grow, not just Darcy. Austen’s understanding of human beings, and her ability to write about them, are truly amazing. Thanks for your insights. I “almost” majored in literature but ended up in the social sciences. However, my whole life has been greatly enhanced by my ability to get the most out of fiction.

I remember Charlotte saying that she was not romantic which to me ties into the idea that she probably isn't vengeful. Y'know neither a heroine or a villainess. She's practical, observant, but also a loyal friend. Also, I think Austen wrote her to make a point about another kind of view towards marriage and because Austen is so intentional with her character some unrevealed cattiness with no resolution would blindside the reader.

I agree with you entirely. And I have often mentioned to my husband that Mr. Collins is just like Sir Lucas. This must be why Charlotte sees him as an acceptable husband, because he has a personality that she knows she can work with. Charlotte is practical and sensible. She made a very advantageous choice for herself and has no reason to be bitter. She is not unhappy with her situation so why would she try to hurt Lizzie, a friend who had always stood by her? No, Sutherland is wrong. He has grossly misunderstood Charlotte's character and needs to read the book again. Of course it was Mr. Collins! He was a very gossipy individual, as was Sir Lucas. I think Sutherland has fallen for the stereotype that women are the gossipers when, in my experience, men are often just as guilty.

It's definitely Mr Collins! He can't shut up! Especially around Lady CDB. Really enjoyed this. Thank you! Never tire of reading/thinking about and talking about Pride & Prejudice.

I think you’re absolutely correct! Mr. Collins would never give up the chance to further insinuate himself into Lady Catherine’s good graces.

I particularly loved your observation about the similarities between Mr. Collins and Charlotte's father, and would love to see that drawn out more.

@yvettescheiman4991

3 жыл бұрын

I, for one, am thoroughly embarrassed that this had not occurred to me! Not that she was particularly in SEARCH of a man so like her father, but she would understand her own ample ability to manage a personality such as his because she'd already spent a lifetime doing so.

@missbeans

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! I've observed this before.

@katehurstfamilyhistory

3 жыл бұрын

That had never occurred to me, either, but now it's pointed out (added to the detail that Mr. Collins was also showing Sir William around the local countryside when he stayed in Kent), I can just imagine their conversation on those excursions. Every other sentence would be, "There's something just like that at Rosings" and "There's a building exactly like that near St. James's Court". They each seem to live in quite a "limited" world in some ways, but each man has his own pet subject that he can "show off" about slightly; Sir William must know that Mr. Collins is unlikely to have been anywhere like St. James' Court and Mr. Collins will know that Sir William doesn't have the experience of having a noble patroness to help him on his way!

@Jhoratio

3 жыл бұрын

Totally agree - this was a true aha moment for me while watching.

It’s honestly baffling to me Sutherland thinks Charlotte was “embittered” against the Bennet’s, like you say that isn’t supported in the text at all. I am a big fan of their friendship, even with their differences, I’m a bit mad at this slander of her and appreciate your defense! If anyone was embittered against the Bennet’s, it was Mr Collins, not Charlotte! I always thought it was so obvious it was Mr Collins who shared the news, with how much he gossips and brown-noses to Lady Catherine. And he clearly has no concern for the Bennet's privacy in sharing all of their problems, as he says himself in his letters to Mr Bennet! I *love* your thoughts about Charlotte's possible scheme to bring Mr Darcy and her friend together, and I definitely see possibility! I think she understands her friend enough to know that she doesn't care about Lady Catherine's opinion. Each one of your videos gives me so much to think about and really makes me appreciate all the subtle nuances in Austen's works. The similarities between Mr Collins and Mr Lucas, Charlotte's watchful eye and thoughts about Mr Darcy, you really make it clear how much character Austen can describe in just a few lines. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about what was in the rumor!

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Many thanks for your kind words, whiteforestfox. I'm always very pleased to help people to think even more about Austen!

@august1229

3 жыл бұрын

And then Charlotte's husband will inherit Longbourn, so if anything the Bennetts would resent the Collins'. There's nothing for Charlotte to be bitter about when it comes to the Bennetts.

I am agree that it’s not Charlotte, not in her carácter envy Lizzy, I believe she wanted happiness for her friend and have good analytic mind for not stop mr. Collins in his gossip. Great análisis, thank you

I’m gobsmacked that Charlotte is considered a possible candidate for betrayal. Her and Elizabeth really seem to have a warm relationship, and Mr. Collins couldn’t stay quiet even if there was a wolf breathing down his neck.

@outsideofenough6466

8 ай бұрын

I’m wondering if that author read the same book I did!

I too always thought it was Mr Collins, I am really surprised that anyone could consider that Charlotte was bitter and spiteful. Your case was wonderfully drawn out and sets in concrete what the majority of readers always knew instinctively from Jane Austin’s careful construction of her characters and narrative.

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Margaret.

Definitely Mr. Collins was the betrayer. I'm not sure his intentions were malicious. His devotion to lady Catherine would not allow him to withhold any information from her especially as it relates to her nephew. He knew Lady Catherine intended her daughter to marry Mr. Darcy so his intentions were to protect Lady Catherine's wishes rather than harm Elizabeth's prospects.

@cathy4139

3 жыл бұрын

And also to entertain Lady Catherine, which I think is part of his job.

@rebeccalott8170

3 жыл бұрын

@@cathy4139 exactly! He's her jester 🙂

Two years ago I started to learn English because a wanted to read Pride and Prejudice in its mother tongue, I have read it so many times in Portuguese and now in English, and your videos are helping me so much. Thanks

It pains me that this video came out just 7 days after my mother, who was an avid fan of Pride and Prejudice and would've absolutely loved listening to all these theories, died. Not that I would've likely discovered it in time to show it to her anyway. Now, I watch the movie on her death day every year to honour her. She used to love it. Thank you so much for these wonderful videos.

I never thought Charlotte was bitter or envious of Lizzie. I agree that Mr Collins spilled the beans and since there was nothing Charlotte could do to stop him, she went along.

@alixaugustine9599

3 жыл бұрын

It’s true. While Collins was rejected by Lizzie, as far as Charlotte is concerned, she came out of the whole situation remarkably well. She could very well have been grateful to Lizzie for passing on Mr. Collins, since how many offers would Charlotte be likely to receive at 26 and beyond?

I don't know why, but I always thought it was Darcy himself, intentionally or not, that started the rumor 🤣 Like someone asked him a question, he answered honestly, and then someone ran with it. Now it's easy to imagine Mr. Collins heard it and then ran with it to Lady Catherine. Charlotte never crossed my mind. John Sutherland doesn't seem as if he understood friendship between women.

I had not thought before this about the similarities between Sir Lucas and Mr. Collins. Thank you for that revelation. I am now confident that Charlotte is truly content with her lot in life.

I never once thought it was Charlotte, I have always thought it was Mr. Collins. Thank you for sharing this.

It was a new Parish for mr. Collins. I wonder, how long it took his parishioners to not trust him since he took everything to Lady Catherine debourgh.

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

They already knew Lady Catherine liked gossip & interfering in people's private lives. It was probably obvious that whatever you told the local minister wasn't private.

I always thought of Charlotte as that friend who knows you better than you do yourself. When she tells Lizzie about her engagement to Mr. Collins she says she's not a romantic, almost implying that she knows Lizzie is. So although se might scheme with the hopes of improving her own situation, I think she honestly believed that her friend could love someone like Darcy. Also, Charlotte wouldn't even had a chance to tell Lady Catherine, Mr. Collins would have beat her to it without a doubt.

@Wanda711

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if Charlotte might not even be a bit worried about Lizzy. Mr. Collins, when he is rejected, tells her that with all her beauty, there is no certainty that she will ever receive another offer of marriage. Of course it's vulgar of him to say this to her (basically telling her she should be grateful to him for offering to marry her!) but he's not actually wrong. She has very little money, and that cuts down her prospects a lot. Charlotte might secretly fear that Lizzy could end up they way SHE seemed destined to do - an impoverished old maid. In her own way, she's looking out for Elizabeth, trying to scout out a possible match with Col. Fitzwilliam, if not Darcy himself.

Charlotte and Lizzy had an amazing friendship. I’m reminded of a quip from Charlotte about why Darcy made a stop, along with the Colonel, at the Collins’ house upon Lizzy’s first arrival. 😄

I never once gave any thought to how Lady Catherine found out, because I didn't think it mattered. I took her confrontation with Lizzie at face value: a plot device to let it get back to Darcy that her feelings towards him have shifted. Joke's on me; this lecture just made the novel as well as the character of Charlotte about 1000% better.

An aspect of Charlottes scheming is that she looks for the win/win scenario. Not only the greatest good, but the best approach for the maximum benefit. She may be a very rational person, but she is also a warm hearted, humanist. Wisking Mr. Collins away for instance, made everybody happier.

@AuntLoopy123

2 жыл бұрын

Kind of like Batman, with his "No matter what happens, I win" plans.

@johnbutler4631

2 жыл бұрын

Her way of not having to be with her husband all the time made me giggle.

@DizzyBusy

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnbutler4631 Yes, hahaha. Elizabeth would never be able to bear a marriage like that.

In my imaginary world, her ladies maid told her....those women know everything. She picked up that he was falling from her from Darcy’s household staff when he was telling Georgianna.

@morgansmith8178

3 жыл бұрын

That's actually a very good way to look at it, given the way people ignore anyone they think of as a "servant" even today. IE (big generalization not directed at anyone specifically): Your Starbucks barista probably knows more about you than your family does.

@nerdgirl7363

3 жыл бұрын

I've never thought of this but I kind of love this idea

@nathanalbright

3 жыл бұрын

That seems a remarkably shrewd headcanon.

@serinad9434

3 жыл бұрын

You're assuming Lady Catherine would bother listening much to her lady's maid - it would probably strike her as inappropriate and presumptuous for her maid to actually talk to her! She probably talks a lot to her maid - who spends most of her time silently listening and not getting a chance to say a word.

@edennis8578

3 жыл бұрын

@@serinad9434 So you've never seen Gosford Park? Written by Julian Fellowes, a Baron and peer in the House of Lords, GP portrays the position of lady's maid to include repeating gossip to her employer. I'm sure Lady Catherine insisted on hearing all the latest dish, considering that she thought everyone's business was her business, from the lowliest cupboard. Also, don't forget that it was well known that servants listen in, which is why the Bennett girls are careful about what is said in front of their servants, who would then spread it other households' servants, who would then tell their employers. Charlotte and Mr. Collins had servants, too; everyone did who wasn't totally destitute themselves. There would at least be a cook and a housekeeper for a living as prosperous as that one. Being so close to Rosings, the servants certainly would be trading juicy tidbits. Who knows who all knew that Darcy visited Elizabeth when she was there alone? Scandalous!

The first time I heard of Pride and Prejudice was through the mini series with Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle. I always thought that it was Mr. Collins who would have told Lady Catherine about it, but I never figured out how he would have known about it until watching this video. Mr. Collins, it seems to me anyway, loves to stick his nose into other people's business and share that with Lady Catherine. Thank you so much for this video. I learned a lot from it.

Spot on. Charlotte didn’t do the dirty deed of course, she’s not embittered in any shape or form. It’s so obviously Mr Collins, it would be impossible for him not tell Lady Catherine once he got wind of any such news. Charlotte knew his character as well as that of Lady Catherine and Lizzie too. She let it run its course.

Love the idea that Mr Collins reflects Sir William, great concept indeed.

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@sianifairy9070

3 жыл бұрын

yes- that bit was brilliant insight. Charlotte's well aware, I guess, of Mr. Bennet's philosphy, or perhaps his sport: to laugh at his neighbors, and for his family to be laughed at in turn. Now that Dr. Cox has mentioned it, it seems only too likely that Charlotte's management skills were learned from her mother, and not just raising poultry and running a household.

*theory before watching video* I believe that Charlotte (having heard whatever gossip from her relatives) speculated to her husband, Mr Collins, that she thought Lizzy and Mr. Darcy would be a good match. I think Mr. Collins, ever the sycophant, knew that this would distress his patron and took steps to warn her of the possibilities being bantered about, so she might remove the danger.

One of my greatest regrets is that we never get to see or hear Mr Darcy letting Lady Catherine know her opinion was neither required nor welcome!! I had just assumed it was Mr Collins.

Your remarks are always thought-provoking. Thank you. My 60+ years of viewing Charlotte Lucas as a sympathetic character are only enhanced through this presentation. Thanks for all!

Yes, it was Mr. Collins. Charlotte never displayed anything but affection and concern for Lizzie. Remember that at the Netherfield ball, she cautioned Lizzie not to let her preference for Wickham blind her to the merits and advantages of a man ten times his distinction. Further, when Charlotte parts with Elizabeth at the end of Lizzie’s visit to Hunsford, she thanks her truly and from her heart for the visit, and assures her that she (Charlotte) is quite satisfied with the lot she has chosen. Charlotte is a true friend to Lizzie and would never plot against her. Mr. Collins, on the other hand, has a spiteful nature under all that obsequiousness, as is evidenced by his glorying in Lydia’s downfall openly to the Bennet sisters, and congratulating himself on not having married into such a disgraced family. He still stings from Lizzie’s rejection. If he heard that a woman who rejected him was possibly going to marry such a wealthy gentleman as Mr. Darcy, a thousand Charlottes would not have been able to restrain him from hurrying to Rosings to alert Lady Catherine, so she could put the kibosh on the match.

@Wanda711

3 жыл бұрын

I'd agree that Charlotte is a good friend to *Elizabeth*, but she's not flawless. In Mr. Collins's infamous letter regarding Lydia, we tend to stop in shock at the point where he says that Lydia's DEATH would have been a blessing compared to the current situation. But the next sentence reads, "And it is the more to be lamented, because there is reason to suppose, *as my dear Charlotte informs me*, that this licentiousness of behaviour in your daughter has proceeded from a faulty degree of indulgence; though, at the same time, for the consolation of yourself and Mrs. Bennet, I am inclined to think that her own disposition must be naturally bad..." So Charlotte has been dishing the dirt on the Bennets, telling her husband about the sort of stuff Lydia's been up to, and that the parents are too lazy to do anything about it. Coincidentally, this is exactly the sort of thing Elizabeth warns her father about, to no avail. But it's one thing to have these discussions within the family, and another to know that the whole neighbourhood is saying it!

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

Mr. Collins is already a member of the "disgraced" family. That's why he is inheriting Longbourne. Typical foolishness that he doesn't get the obvious.

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

@@Wanda711 Everyone knew about Lydia's behavior. She made a spectacle of herself at every social event.

@merebrillante

2 жыл бұрын

@@robinlillian9471 That’s a really good point!

@jackietennant8061

2 жыл бұрын

Luv ur comments. Funny but spot on. Well done.

Thank you so much for finally setting the record straight publicly. Reading Sutherland's "answer" seriously shook my faith in literary scholars. Perhaps we'll never know what bee got into Mr. Sutherland's bonnet to make him misread Charlotte's character so much, when the text says again and again how supportive a friend she was. You dig deeper and support the argument more clearly than I ever have. I'm also impressed by your hypothesis that Charlotte foresaw a positive outcome. I just lazily figured she couldn't stop her husband, but I really like the thought that she already knew that there was nothing to be lost, and everything to be gained. Thanks again!

@DrOctaviaCox

3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure Vikiirna. Thanks for watching. And I'm glad you've not been put off literary analysis completely!

Excellent arguments, I am convinced it was Mr. Collins.

After watching this video, I’m pretty confused as to why someone else would write an entire book putting the blame on Charlotte! You explained yourself beautifully. I’m new to your channel and very much enjoying it!

I always thought it was Mr. Collins. Lizzie has rejected him. He would do anything to fawn on Lady Catharine.

I always thought that Mr Darcy did it himself, maybe during one of Lady Catherine's speeches about his marriage to Anne; or if Lady Catherine brought up Lizzy's character in not-so-kind context and Mr Darcy opposed to her opinion and thus made his fondness to Elizabeth evident.

@unepetitemarmotte2918

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know about that 🤔. For me, the word "reports" almost automatically means that someone else reported on the situation. I mean, it's weird to report on one's own behaviour 😂😂. Then again, aybe he let something slip and Lady Catherine took it upon herself to make some inquiries 🤷🏽‍♀️

@ruthfeiertag

3 жыл бұрын

Cetainly the film with Laurence Olivier and Greer Garson picks up on the idea of Darcy being the one to tell his aunt - AND being the one to send her to sound out Elizabeth.

@christineherrmann205

3 жыл бұрын

This would be another possibility.

@funsalmon

3 жыл бұрын

@@ruthfeiertag that's such a romantic interpretation, and allows them to have a peaceful life with inlaws haha

@melanezoe

3 жыл бұрын

@@ruthfeiertag maybe, but that film strays more from the text than any other made. The end was such a shock to me I nearly choked.

I enjoy listening to your analysis. I too believe it was Charlotte Lucas because she wanted to cement the relationship between Elizabeth & Darcy. She is crafty.

I have enjoyed listening to this analysis. Your reading of the text is precise and credible. I find Charlotte in the film version of P&P most closely supports the text. The way Charlotte watches Darcy as he watches Lizzie at Rosings is perfect! Also her explanation to Lizzie of why she has attached Mr Collins, out of fear, Deborah Moggach’s script has some real gems in the course of condensing Jane’s novel into 2 hours of film. And the music - sublime.

Would love an analysis of why Robert Ferrars married Lucy Steele in Sense and Sensibility , never really understood that!

@ruthfeiertag

3 жыл бұрын

The narrator tells us that Edward supposes that “the vanity of the one had been so worked on by the flattery of the other as to lead by degrees to all the rest.” Later, in Chapter 50, we learn that Robert sought out Lucy in her lodgings “merely to persuade her to give up the engagement” to Edward. Lucy gave Robert “hoped that his eloquence would convince her in TIME,” but more visits would be needed. “Some doubts always lingered in her mind when they parted, which could only be removed by another half-hour’s discourse with himself.” Eventually they ceased talking of Edward and “came gradually to talk only of Robert, a subject on which he had always more to say than any other, and in which she soon betrayed an interest even equal to his own; and, in short, it became speedily evident to both that he had entirely supplanted his brother. He was very proud of his conquest, proud of tricking Edward, and very proud of marrying privately without his mother’s consent.” Since Mrs. Ferrars the Mother had already irrevocably settled everything on Robert, he had nothing to lose. It sounds as if they lived quite happily together from the rest of the narrative concerning them. In essence, Edward’s initial supposition was spot on. Does that help?

@catherinegegan211

3 жыл бұрын

@@ruthfeiertag Thanks Ruth, I obviously need to read the book again, it's been so long! Still would love a Dr Cox video though, any excuse!

@catrinlewis939

3 жыл бұрын

I think it would be great for Dr. Cox to do an exposition on why Edward doesn't/can't break his engagement to Lucy, even though he's come to like Elinor better. I could give a list of why, ranging from Edward's moral character to the marital and economic expectations of the time, but the analysis would carry more weight coming from an English Lit don at Oxford. :-)

@ruthfeiertag

3 жыл бұрын

Catherine, I’m sure Dr. Cox has a great deal she could add. I know I merely provided a veneer. And I love to listen to Dr. Cox. I’d tune in to hear her explicate the phone book. Ruth

@ammaleslie509

2 жыл бұрын

That's one of the easiest ones to understand. Lucy Steele wanted to marry into a good family, but she mostly wanted to marry money. After Edward was disinherited, she easily transferred her affections to Robert since it was the money and the family she was attracted to more than Edward himself. Robert was not used to the kind of attention Lucy started giving him (in the guise of seeking help), and rescuing a damsel in distress is another powerful ego stroke, so he could hardly keep himself from falling for her, and didn't realize she was manipulating him.

I agree with your deduction. I always found Charlotte likeable even if she was "calculating". She's using her intelligence to get the best life for herself, and is happy to help out Elizabeth while benefitting herself.

Back to listen again! I love the world of Pride and Prejudice ! Your talks are so much fun, as well!

It’s interesting that when Darcy was watching Bingley and Jane together he believed Jane to be indifferent to Bingley. Yet as Charlotte was observing Darcy and Lizzie together she was not able to perceive any particular attention by Darcy toward Lizzie. Jane and Darcy are reserved characters, but one thinks the best of others, the other not so much. Lizzie and Bingley are both less reserved, and Lizzie the more cynical of the two. It’s hardly surprising that Lydia and Wickham were able to take advantage of the Bingleys in later years.

Mr. Sutherland missed so much in the text. I've never gotten the feeling of malice from Charlotte towards Elizabeth. Charlotte has a practical nature,( not one of bitterness or resentment) and love of her friend that is evident throughout the novel.

Excellent! How dare anyone insult Charlotte, by portraying her as petty. I have read the book a few times. Always in hard back. I am going to dash out and buy it in paperback so I can re read it, outdoors, in the tub, at the beach, etc....

Loved this video!! I never thought Charlotte having bad feelings towards Lizzie. It's a win-win situation for her... Plus seeing Lady Catherine being "defeated", for once at least. 😊

I agree it is Mr. Collins, Charlotte was always thought to be Elizabeth's best friend. I do not think she would hurt Lizzie. But Mr. Collins tell Lady Catherine everything.

I can’t explain John Sutherlands opinion other than that he’s a man thinking jealousy and malice are the only qualities women can possess. We as readers had the opportunity to some Charlotte POV sections, in none of them she thought ill of Lizzy. She was a realist and knew exactly what her options were and she was satisfied with that. She actually loved Lizzy even more than Lizzy loved her being more open minded and seeing where people came from, while Lizzy sometimes was very judgmental and couldn’t put herself in others shoes. Mr collins on the other hand never forgave Lizzy turning him down when, in the time of proposal, he was so convinced that he was the best she could get. First after Lydia’s elopement could he feel that he had the upper hand and that he got his revenge now the Bennet sisters’ prospect of marriage was diminished. Hearing about Lizzy potentially being with a man superior to him was probably unbearable not only because Lizzy “won” the battle he was having in his head but also because he believed Lizzy to be inferior to mr Darcy and Anne de Bourgh. His stupidity in other words brought Liz and Darcy together 😌

You're so right. I'd assumed something along the lines of, "Mr Collins heard the Lucases chattering and took the tale to Lady C." But I'm captivated by the practical affection and insightful genius of Mrs Collins noticing & noticing & noticing, and thinking, "Hmmm... I bet *this* will make *everyone* happy except this toxic, overdressed old nut I have to kowtow to!"

@robinlillian9471

2 жыл бұрын

Lady Catherine liked gossip and probably had multiple sources from servants to overheard conversations. There were probably any number of tattle tales that took her information to earn her favor.

You got everything right. When you started I was going to tell you my thoughts which later in the video happened to be yours. I think Charlotte is one of the smartest and most intuitive characters in Pride and Prejudice.

I too had always thought it was Mr Collins, who did dearly love to gossip and would certainly have had the idea from his in-laws.

Brilliant, thanks. Jane Austen triumphed after her death. She could never have imagined that we would spend a large portion of our lives studying and enjoying her books!

Insightful as always. I never believed that Charlotte was spiteful. I'm surprised at Sutherland it says more of him than the character. Charlotte is great pragmatist operating with a weak hand but she is not malicious.

You are an absolute delight to listen to, especially for someone who really enjoys Jane Austen's books and likes to have them discussed with good understanding and research and fine discourse. Thank you for all your work.🤗

What an excellent analysis! It is so obvious that Mr Collins is the guilty gossip that I am thoroughly surprised at Sutherland's conclusion? It makes no sense whatsoever😂

Goodness, I always assumed it was Mr Collins. Didn't realize people were wondering about it.

8:02 Yes please! Definitely another video specifically about the report of the potential engagement itself. Big thumbs up for that 👍

@alixaugustine9599

3 жыл бұрын

Yea, all of Lizzie’s family thought she disliked him. And that he disliked her (other than Jane, who knew of his initial proposal). So not sure where that gossip would have come from!

I always assumed Charlotte's father told Mr. Collins, not out of malice, but because he always seemed to find joy in other's joy. And as you said, Charlotte would have known Lizzy well enough to know that Lady Catherine would have no ill effect on her feelings.