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@arnijulian6241

Жыл бұрын

Mace are in no way less lethal then blade Matt! Really a mace or club as the odd benefit that you choose how lethal it as the force applied/ commitment to the blow determines the damage inflicted. Even a half hearted blow to the head will cause mortal wounds but a half hearted blow to the limbs will just cause bruising & pain generally unless a particularly nasty well designed mace with a very low contact area. My preference is a mace over sword or axe but I would pick a spear/large pole arm over a mace. My favourite is an (awl pike) as a modest length pike with a cap circumference for clubbing. Basically a spear mace! Bit goedendag but much larger. Put a spike on a solid mace it is often far more lethal then most sword's!

@kungfujoe2136

Жыл бұрын

against undead ofc

@christiandauz3742

Жыл бұрын

I wish a Time-traveler Industrialized, Secularized and gave Winchester Rifles to Early Medieval Humanity Then the world would be a much better place

@arnijulian6241

Жыл бұрын

@@kungfujoe2136 D&D fan are we? Bludgeoning mechanically is the best of all 3 melee damage types. The new fresh party always questions my choice of stave, maul or Warhammer over the usual weapons. Look up how many creature have resistance or immunity to piecing & slashing unlike bludgeoning. Shillelagh/magic stick can get ridiculous. People say dexterity is best stat till you make a wisdom fighter. Stick & board is fun be it paladin or fighter. Magic bludgeoning the DM can't refuse. Magic stone is a good 2nd cantrip to take for wisdom fighter so your range damage is Good enough compared to most anything. Magic stick/club for live.

@robertvondarth1730

Жыл бұрын

Hit in the sternum, they will die

I immediately thought of the Mace Etiquette book from Elder Scrolls when I saw this. "Mace Etiquette Warriors sometimes make the mistake of thinking that there are no tactics with a mace. They assume that the sword is all about skill and the mace is only about strength and stamina. As a veteran instructor of mace tactics, I can tell you they are wrong. Wielding a mace properly is all about timing and momentum. Once the swing of the mace has begun, stopping it or slowing it down is difficult. The fighter is committed to not just the blow, but also the recoil. Begin your strike when the opponent is leaning forward, hopefully off balance. It is completely predictable that he will lean backward, so aim for a point behind his head. By the time the mace gets there, his head will be in its path. The mace should be held at the ready, shoulder high. The windup should not extend past the shoulders by more than a hand's width. When swinging, lead with the elbow. As the elbow passes the height of your collarbone, extend the forearm like a whip. The extra momentum will drive the mace faster and harder, causing far more damage. At the moment of impact, let the wrist loosen. The mace will bounce and hurt a stiff wrist. Allow the recoil of the blow to drive the mace back into the ready position, thereby preparing the warrior for a quicker second strike." Congratulations, one skill point for one handed.

@ccgamerlol

Жыл бұрын

as someone with no combat skill, I could bet that I can be useful with a mace as a frontline grunt, but completely useless with a sword

@Born_Stellar

Жыл бұрын

@@ccgamerlol depends, sword like the gladius are super easy to use. also stabbing can be very effective. sounds like swinging a mace is a lot like swinging a golf club!

@yourdadsotherfamily3530

Жыл бұрын

Yo this is awesome! Another reason why ES was amazing with the huge amount of content inside its books alone

@matikaevur6299

Жыл бұрын

@@Born_Stellar Driver Nephi, Fallout New Vegas ;)

@mr.puddintater1805

Жыл бұрын

I found that Maces work better on the undead. Like skeletons.

If Kingdom Come:Deliverance taught me anything it was "bring a mace" because swords suck against armour but the humble mace does not care whether you wear a helmet or a cap it cracks what needs to be cracked and rings what needs to be rung.

@breaden4381

Жыл бұрын

Warhammer or axe are my favorites in that game. Bonking sleeping Cumans in a cave is very fun.

@Adam_okaay

Жыл бұрын

I always find it funny when people complain about the combat on the KC:D subreddit because they can't kill groups of armoured enemies with a sword, then get defensive and say they won't use a mace or warhammer because it's "cheap" or "too easy" and they "want to use skill." Nah mate it's not cheap and the combat isn't too hard just use the right tool for the job.

@barcibus

Жыл бұрын

Hahaha, KC:D brought me here as well. Axe guy here.

@Luke_Danger

Жыл бұрын

Mount & Blade II Bannerlord's Realistic Battle Mod for me is the one that got me to really love maces. It actually made all the (appearing-slightly-too-early) armor worth more than recycled shitpaper, and now my go-to sidearm is always a mace, maybe a sword as a tertiary for fighting unarmored targets or for style as a Vlandian Knight.

@mortache

Жыл бұрын

@@Adam_okaay the combat is amazing but it suffers when there are multiple enemies. It used to be especially horrible when mobs at night didn't use torches while fighting you and could see in the dark lol.

I feel like not enough people consider the idea of compounding damage. One of the first things I learned in martial arts is that you can get up from the ground pretty quickly after being thrown the first time, but by the 3rd or 4th time you're thrown getting up starts to become extremely difficult. Likewise, being hit the first time in the hand or wrist when doing staff fighting drills isn't always a big deal but if you smash the same joint or knuckle 2 or 3 times it becomes very difficult to hold onto your stick, and also your ability to deliver blows and counters is continuisly diminished the more punishment you take.

@samsowden

Жыл бұрын

be interesting for a video game to incorporate that instead of just a straight health bar...

@EvolvedSungod

Жыл бұрын

@@samsowden That's basically what a stamina/mana bar is for

@charlottewalnut3118

Жыл бұрын

@@samsowden Kingdom come

@hosmerhomeboy

Жыл бұрын

Interesting. I used to jump off the walls at work all the time, usually 8' or 6', but sometimes 14 or even 20'(onto a slope in those cases). I could easily jump once or twice, but after that, no more. Compounding damage, as you say.

@Brass_Heathen

Жыл бұрын

Hammer the gap

Shields is another. I seen a mace (made of tightly wrapped carpet scraps for its head) break someone's forearm through a good quality wooden shield and steel vambraces. The shield and armor showed no damage that I could see. This was one of those medieval type fairs year and years ago, they'd dress up as knights and fight with fake weapons. This really stuck with me as to why maces were useful on the battlefield, this carpet headed mace transferred enough force through the wood, steel and flesh to break the bone. I can only imagine the devastation if that were a headshot or body blow.

@brandondillman5848

Жыл бұрын

Did they have padding under the plate?

@texasbeast239

Жыл бұрын

A hide-covered flexible shield would absorb a lot rather than transfer all that force eight through. Padding between the shield and vambrace, plus more padding between the vambrace and armor, should help dissipate those forces even better. Padding isn't just a girly option. It's necessary if you're going to combat someone and you want the best chance of coming out unscathed.

@NaturalExplorerNZ

Жыл бұрын

wow thats an incredibly crazy thing to witness!

@valkyrie1066

Жыл бұрын

I have been in such combat, and have suffered incapacitating injuries even though wearing armor, and using "faux" weapons. It's not a "faux" weapon if it leaves broken bones, soft tissue damage, etc. It's just a safer way to practice. You're not going to bleed out, but you leave the field WELL AWARE that the injuries would have been fatal with a bladed weapon. It's not for sissies. I got too old to heal quickly; and left it for the more full of hormones. The average person still wouldn't do well in an alley against someone with a stick and a trash can lid if they are experienced in using such weapons. Stay alive, it is the primary directive.

@jakelink1482

Жыл бұрын

There seems to be some serious blind spots with the various influencers that study weapons. They try to translate their own experiences into historical fact, which seems like pretty bad science. The fact that the shield was entirely missed is a pretty obvious example of that. It doesnt help that many of these guys are also fairly unathletic when compared to soldiers and that the vast majority of their "combat" experience comes from slow speed sparring. In fairness this guy does seem to be more fit and referenced source material multiple times, I see this effect a lot more elsewhere.

My wife listened to a couple seconds around minute 8 and asked in exasperated fashion "What's the mystery?" WRT the symbolism of the mace. Where she grew up (East Africa) there were several versions of the verb "to hit". One was thumping an inanimate object or punching someone accidentally or in a fight or similar. There was another - literally "to hippopotamus" after the hippo and rhino hide whips in use during the colonial period - which meant to beat as one would a recalcitrant child or a slave. Beating with rods or fasces or whips there as in many other places is distinct from fighting. A sword's only real purpose is to kill in a fight. A mace/rod/whip _might_ be lethal at the discretion of the wielder. _Symbolically_ its function is to punish those who are lesser. The mace is a symbol of the right of the person in a superior social position to hit others not as in an equal fight but reducing them to the level of nonpersons - animals, criminals, children, or servants/slaves. The Monarch is above everyone, and the mace is the symbol of her/his right to punish everyone else rather than fight them as equals. Likewise the clergy are representatives of the Ultimate Authority. A staff or mace or crosier which represents God's authority and exists (symbolically) primarily to chastise rather than do battle is an obvious accessory

@GilgameshEthics

Жыл бұрын

Excellent insight.

@wompa70

Жыл бұрын

Brilliant.

@user-rk3yb6nd1n

Жыл бұрын

There was an interesting article in Military History Quarterly a number of years ago that theorized that the mace was the first truely anti personnel weapon. I'm going off of memory here, but the point was spears and arrows could be used in hunting, but there's little point in trying to club a wild pig, for instance, to death. On the other hand, clocking a human over the head with a mace pretty much means death. So while a party of men with spears might be hunting for the pot, men with maces had more ominous intentions. It's all conjecture, of course, but I found it interesting enough to remember all these years later.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

@@user-rk3yb6nd1n Makes perfect sense. In ancient armies it was mostly sling, bow, spear, dagger, and mace. Slings, bows, and spears were already hunting weapons. Swords came later. Knives are knives. The stone-headed mace didn't have any use besides hitting people.

@DzinkyDzink

Жыл бұрын

Language shapes ideas. Ideas shape culture. Culture shapes...

I remember lots of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe action figures from the '80s had maces that were relatively huge compared to their bodies. So when I began to see realistic maces, I thought the historical ones looked cartoonishly tiny. I thought the toy versions were real, and the real ones were caricatures!

@DzinkyDzink

Жыл бұрын

Hypothetically if you possesed super-strength a sturdy blunt weapon with extended reach would be a good choice.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

Even if you were strong enough to lift and swing something that heavy physics still applies. If you try to lift a hundred pound weight on the end of a five foot stick or gods-please-save-us one of those ridiculous anime swords you will fall over due to torque and the center of mass of the system.

@jodricpalisbo7916

Жыл бұрын

You should check out Byzantine maces. You would be surprised how smaller they are compared to Western European maces.

@DzinkyDzink

Жыл бұрын

@@toddellner5283 That's why we need to make Hammerhead series from the Anime Expo.

@AaronLitz

Жыл бұрын

Man-at-Arms probably just used some special metal he devised for his mace.

The fact that you don't have to worry about edge alignment when using a mace is a huge plus.

@gundalfthelost1624

9 ай бұрын

There's also the fact that swords are very fragile if used incorrectly. Misjudge a strike and you might very well snap or bend a blade. Mace? Give old Grug One-Eye one and he can keep swinging all day at armor, heads, bodies or a nearby boulder if he feels like it. I've seen what a mace can do to steel, bone and flesh. It's not a pretty sight.

For some sense of just how indestructible maces are, I was talking to some of the folk at the area medieval weapons dealer, and they told me about how they got in a new model of flanged mace (wooden haft, very beefy head, surprisingly nimble, kinda wish I could have bought it) and they took turns using it on an old dumpster over the course of an afternoon to test it out. The dumpster was unrecognizable. The mace was... blue. Also, I just had the thought while watching that perhaps some of the symbolism of the mace with royalty came precisely from its durability. An unbreakable rule, unshakable authority, an unbroken dynastic lineage... Pure speculation, obviously, but probably about as good as anyone else has come up with.

@davewebster5120

8 ай бұрын

any idea what it was called or who made it?

@watcher314159

8 ай бұрын

@@davewebster5120 no, sorry. I never asked an it was years ago besides.

You've convinced me. I'll keep my mace ready just in case. This reminds me: I just learned the three rules of hand tools. 1. Always use the best tool for the job. 2. The hammer is always the best tool. 3. Anything can be used as a hammer. Nice work as usual. Cheers from sunny Vienna, Scott

@eddyram4932

Жыл бұрын

Also, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail ready to be… hammered.

@elib9002

Жыл бұрын

If the hammer didn't fix it, you haven't hit it hard enough yet....

@elib9002

Жыл бұрын

@John Wallace Chad's always use the biggest hammer.

@ajstyles5704

Жыл бұрын

Maces are great tools, the only problem with it is reach and opponents can grab it. That's it. Maces are scary when partnered with a shield. 2 knights, one with sword and shield, the other with a mace and shield, the outcome % of the duel won by the mace are higher. That's what this video missed or didn't mention.

@zigzaghyena3633

Жыл бұрын

@@ajstyles5704 I wouldn't want to try grabbing at a mace, sounds like good way to get smashed fingers.

I broke my wrists a long time ago, basically ruining any possibilities of becoming a better sword swinger, but I found solace in the forgiving flanges of a good mace!

@iceink

Жыл бұрын

suspiciously erotic comment

@runswithphantoms1757

Жыл бұрын

I'm in the same boat, so I started training with a quarter/bo-staff. Easier on the wrists. Part of me does miss the blade, though.

@troydodson9641

Жыл бұрын

Careful using a mace, it's got a recoil, jerks back in a way. I'm dumb is the context

@ExtraVictory

Жыл бұрын

You broke both wrists? I mean you pluralized wrists so im just curious because that seems like a very rare injury. I was a pitcher in high school and college and never injured myself beyond typical scrapes and soreness. And even among others at my position i never even heard of one wrist being broken, and we tend to be very tall and skinny as well which you would think might make it more likely, im 6'3 170 lbs for instance and even putting all that force through my body i never did any major damage. So how did you end up breaking your wrists?

@seb2750

Жыл бұрын

@@ExtraVictory Bike accident or car accident where both your hands are on the handlebar or wheel. (mine was bike accident, both wrists)

A long time ago in the USA, a re-enactment group who used real weapons and armor in choreographed fighting demos, had a person who missed their block and got hit by a mace in a rising strike to the hip. His hip bone shattered and shards traveled to his shoulder. Maces are VERY effective against armored opponents.

@souksalasith4535

Жыл бұрын

Pic or it dident happen

@hoi-polloi1863

Жыл бұрын

@Bob Smith I imagine that the migration would have been a slow and painful process...

Even without the involvement of heavy armor, the mace can have an advantage that shouldn't be underestimated, and that - in some scenarios - might be a disadvantage, but in others can make a huge difference: The short reach. And that's why it made a comeback in the trenches of WW1. Because where space is limited, a shorter weapon is much easier to handle. And while soldiers were trained in bajonet fencing, which made sense on an open battlefield, but was not very practical in a more claustrophobic setting, many switched (as described by Remarque) to using their spades as a melee weapon at first, until they re-discovered the mace in its new form as a trench club.

@JH-lo9ut

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking of the same. WW1 soldiers had readily access to sharp (sort of..) steel in the form of their bayonet, many had revolvers, but they often chose to fashion their own clubs and maces. Yes, they are effective in close quartets but I think there is another aspect of it also. Going on a trench raid is scary stuff. You are sneaking through the most hellish enviroment imaginable, in the dark. You know you are going to get in to hand-to-hand combat. You are going to kill or get killed. You are likely nervous and jumpy. As you make contact with the enemy, you have a few seconds to incapacitate them. In this scenario, you are probably going to revert to basic instincts. You are much less likely to mess up with a mace than with almost any other weapon. You can be in a state of panic, and still be quite effective.

@LokiLaughs2

Жыл бұрын

It's not do much the trenches It's the bunkers and rounding frequent corner. Any straight section of trench was favorable to bayonets but the trenches were full of claustrophobic bunkers where clubs, shovels, and knives were more useful.

@silphonym

Жыл бұрын

@@LokiLaughs2 There were very few "straight" sections in the trenches of WW1 as far as I know. They were usually a zig-zag with edges just a couple meters long, so as to minimise the damage of artillery shrapnel. In this environment carrying and using a 1.5m pointy stick effectively is probably quite challenging, whereas a club or mace maybe half as long makes an enormous amout of sense.

@Tmanowns

Жыл бұрын

@@silphonym very correct. Also, to limit the capabilities of enemies just shooting everyone in the trench upon a breach. Trenches pretty much forced melee combat.

@nirfz

Жыл бұрын

Even hitting someone with the flat of those spades with enough force will have an effect. (Even if you hit someone who wears a steel helmet by the shear force) I remember during my conscript time, we got similiar spades. (only difference that the head was foldable, butin such a rugged form that there was no fear of breaking it when using it to hack into wood ect.) And our instructor said:" Yes you got issued a field knife, but in close equaters combat, we recommend you use your spade. It has prooven itself in 2 World wars." So areal mace wil have an even nastier effect. The only thing to me is: The spade is already with you, you don't have to carr/make anything additionaly, and you can stab with it too. (and if you loose it, there is plenty of replacement around.)

About lethal vs non-lethal: although it certainly can be lethal, it seems to me that a mace can also be used in a non-lethal way much more easily than a sword, just by swinging it with less force and/or avoiding hitting the head. It's definitely more difficult to stab someone "lightly" with a sword.

@armintor2826

Жыл бұрын

I think it also comes down to the fact that maces usually dont cut skin as well. A medieval peseant can survive a broken arm, but a cut artery not even modern people can mend easily, so trying to "subdue" someone with a sword and you end up cutting an artery, well thats it theyre dead but if you break an arm and a leg with a mace, theyll get over it. And if they dont its not your problem

@AdlerMow

Жыл бұрын

Or you can invert it and use it as a club with a pommel, for doing arrests. If you have to kill, use the head, if you have to arrest use the shaft.

@tradtke101

Жыл бұрын

Good point, and not just when you "cut an artery". Anything that cuts/punctures the skin runs the risk of becoming a lethal or disabling wound in the days/weeks after the fight. Broken bones are close to 100% survivable even back then; even if you were treated poorly you'd be disabled but not dead.

@robertwildschwein7207

Жыл бұрын

I think, a broken arm was very hard to treat back then, especially without the money for a doctor It won't kill immediately but the aftereffects will kill slowly over time

@tradtke101

Жыл бұрын

@@robertwildschwein7207 In some places medical treatment might not be available, but all these civilizations absolutely had the knowledge of how to treat simple fractures. And any military unit is going to have someone with said knowledge, even if they aren't an expert. Sure, there are nasty fractures that could cause lethal complications like compartment syndrome (basically a lack of blood flow due to the injury), but even an improperly treated simple fracture will probably just result in pain and disability. In some settings this could mean death/starvation due to loss of income/ability to work/hunt/gather/farm. All that said, in the general sense, pre-modern medicine was *vastly* better at treating fractures than open wounds. Some cultures had an understanding of how to disinfect and clean wounds, but germ theory has been widespread for just a bit over a century, and antibiotics less than that. Literally any open wound, no matter how minor, could become lethal. And once infection set in, there was really no treatment. Look up the first penicillin patient. Guy got an infection and died from a scratch from a rosebush! Antibiotics are so incredible that we take them for granted and fail to realize just how dangerous open wounds were, and why soldiers were willing to wear 40 lbs of head-to-toe mail on campaign for most of medieval history! It's because soldiers are generally OK with the idea of dying quickly in battle from a sword in the belly or a mace to the head. But soldiers fear being one of the many wounded who die after days or weeks of screaming in agony from untreatable invisible wounds.

Matt: there's no treaties on maces Treaty on maces: mace go bonk

Matt, can you talk about the use of armour in hot climates? Really curious how people fought in deserts and such while wearing several layers without dying of heat stroke.

@airesbattleblade732

Жыл бұрын

If I remember correctly, they just didn't. Like the heaviest armor I can think of from a desert or desert adjacent civilization is roman stuff, but even then it wasn't like full plate armor or even chainmail.

@kielbasamage

Жыл бұрын

@@airesbattleblade732 the name of it escapes me but I do recall there was Roman chain mail armor. The lorica hamata I think?

@comradekenobi6908

Жыл бұрын

@@airesbattleblade732 they actually still did, since their enemies still called the crusaders wearing heavy armor in battles

@nobodyspecial4702

Жыл бұрын

@@comradekenobi6908 The Crusaders wore chain over padding for their heavy armor. It was incredibly hot to wear, but it also made their heavy cavalry unstoppable. If they knew there wasn't going to be any fighting, they would remove the armor, but if they thought there might be, they wore it and suffered, hoping the battle would happen soon because the longer it went the more the heat affected both the men and the mounts.

@comradekenobi6908

Жыл бұрын

@@nobodyspecial4702 seems inconvenient

As a mace/moringstar supremacist and enthusiast, a huge smile came onto my face and I started rapidly nodding every time you brought up the positives of a mace over a sword. Glad to know I knew these things before watching! Not a lot of people know the true, classical raw power of an "Unga-Bunga" blunt weapon. :P

Durability, Solid Steel Maces are very hard to break. No need for edge alignment, meaning its easier to use in a chaotic situation. More forceful blows from weight distribution to break more fragile weapons and armor.

@winsunwong5648

Жыл бұрын

Made the comment before watching. You made the points in exactly this order lol

Like you said: good steel (historically) can be very rare… blunt weapons only require a reasonably hard & heavy material to make. Factor in more specialty processes, like heat treating, and really… of classical weapons, the mace/warhammer is second only to the spear in Cost:Effect, imo.

@NemisCassander

Жыл бұрын

From a materials perspective, could you _cast_ a Mace? I wouldn't imagine so, but thought I should ask. (Casting a Sword would be right out.)

@paulpolito2001

Жыл бұрын

@@NemisCassander yeah, with bronze or copper, casting is easy and seems to be effective… cast steels can be more hit-or-miss; but *can* be done. If you’re talking barebones fabrication: get about 2kg of old lead Wheel Weights (find as scrap from any auto shop that does any wheel/tire services), melt them on a hot plate - in open air, and in an old metal pot you’ll never cook in again. Make a roughly ‘mace-head’ shaped indentation in some firm mud & center some rebar into it - brace the rebar-handle to stay put and pour in lead. Bend an ‘O’ or a crook into the striking side for a better attachment; but more just proof-of-concept for a $5 mace build lol

@justinokraski3796

Жыл бұрын

You could probably use slag to make the mace

@paulpolito2001

Жыл бұрын

@@justinokraski3796 kinda brittle, but it’d work for a few blows

A friend of mine is a reenactor. He told me that one time he got hit on the head (in helmet) with a fairly simple mace - pretty much just a small ball at the end of the stick. And he was stunned. Not just ringing bells like with the sword hit, because obviously any hit that transfers some energy will have some impact, but a proper long stun when he didn't know what was going on. I don't know whether that is a common effect or he was just unlucky, but it makes sense the the energy transfer in case of a mace is simply more effective through the armour, as all of it is focused on pretty small point at the end, instead of spread along the blade. Also I'd like to mention an old polish movie "Krzyzacy" where two early XVth century knights has a formal duel in full armour. They don't use swords but axes. Similarly their squires, who also fight in the duel, use axes and eventually one of them kills the other with the dagger.

Another thought for the mace. If you run someone through with the point of your sword, they may be fatally wounded, but can still hit back for a bit. Break their arm/wrist with a mace and that limb and what it was holding is no longer a threat

@Robert399

Жыл бұрын

Well that’s equally true of cutting into their hand/arm.

@prieterico

Жыл бұрын

@@Robert399 nah. I've seen a lot of fights with machetes in my thirdworld shithole and I can say that slicing the hand or arm won't make them drop their weapons or stop their attacks. They will carry on unless they got their hand chopped off or left it hanging or if their bones gets broken

@qwormuli77

Жыл бұрын

@@Robert399 _IF_ your sword is a good enough cutter for that, yes.

@Robert399

Жыл бұрын

@@qwormuli77 Eh... sure, some swords will struggle to sever limbs but OP was talking about stopping blows. Even if you don't cut it off, cutting into the incoming hand/arm is a fairly reliable way to stop the incoming blow. And I'd say that's more true with a sword than a mace (simply due to length and speed).

@subtledemisefox

Жыл бұрын

@@Robert399 Assuming the arm or wrist wasn't armored

It is telling that we see maces (and for that matter also warhammers) listed as part of the secondary weaponry of heavy cavalry and in some cases also medium or even light cavalry. They served a useful if niche role as anti-armour weapons in close quarters mounted combat. An interesting case is the Stradiot light cavalry who found that their light lances and bladed sidearms had little to no effect against the French Gendarmes but maces allowed them to launch very effective hit and run harassment attacks against the same heavy cavalry. With little light cavalry available to counter them the French had to deploy missile troops to try and hold the Stradiots at a distance.

@MinSredMash

Жыл бұрын

And let's place special emphasis on the MOUNTED part of the mace's anti-armor role. The idea that a light, one-handed mace on foot was a serious threat to plate armor is perhaps the most persistent myth about medieval warfare on the internet. There are a variety of period sources which disparage this weapon's ability to seriously harm a well-armored man with anything but a truly heroic blow. It was a weapon for smashing at people's fingers and ringing their ears, when a knight needed to extricate himself from a mounted melee. If you want to threaten someone in full armor with a blunt weapon, you really need to use something larger and two-handed.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

Be that as it may even a fairly light mace with a long shaft swung at a gallop will pack some kinetic energy.

@MinSredMash

Жыл бұрын

@@toddellner5283 Sure it will. But the crucial difference is that a sword can kill with a flick of the wrist. To have any chance of harming someone in armor, a mace requires an absolutely heroic blow, delivered with full force and a predictable windup. In battle one rarely has the luxury for such things, and period sources state this directly. Ultimately a sufficiently strong blow with a mace is no easier to deliver than a well-aimed thrust with a sword. That's why they were mostly used on horseback where finesse is difficult and the mount gives you extra momentum.

@Tomartyr

Жыл бұрын

@@MinSredMash the second most persistent myth about medieval warfare on the internet is the idea that for something to qualify as an 'anti-armour' weapon it needs to be able to defeat a 15th century European full plate harness..

@MinSredMash

Жыл бұрын

@@Tomartyr That is clearly the context of the discussion. Matt is literally holding a 15th Century mace in this video. And if it's not a full harness, you would be very foolish to try and whallop the armor when you have the option to bypass it...

"The place of mace" would be a great title for a mini series about the history and use of maces all over the world.

in light of the "civilian context" wouldn't a good thing to look at be WW1? most soldiers were issued bayonets that were still quite long but they often preferred to use club-like weapons as evidenced by the huge amount of makeshift maces and clubs that were used in WW1. Trenches play a part here, with the tight confines of a WW1 trench making longer weapons somewhat less desirable; but there was also considerations like knives getting stuck easily, breaking more easily and maces being to some degree harder to defend against (they more easily crush through the guard and knock weapons out of the hand, and their shortness can give them dagger-like qualities for fighting very close in. (potentially at a distance where even drawing the sword may be too difficult) Clubs have a bunch of advantages over swords for civilian usage, but at the end of the day I think swords work better simply because of their ease of carry and their length. (you can easily carry a sword for the reach alongside a dagger, while carrying a dagger and a mace just gives you two weapons with a similarly short effective reach and similar lack of defensive utility) speaking of all this, I think the king of self-defense weapons remains the dagger; it is the fastest thing to draw when you get jumped and, specifically, in the civilian context fights have a tendency to start pretty much at dagger range.

@robsarnowski6313

Жыл бұрын

You can’t slide your hand down a mace and give yourself a debilitating wound unlike a lot of knives

@samuelmahoney6878

Жыл бұрын

@@robsarnowski6313 they were still extremely common weapons in WW1 and used extremely effectively.

@samuelmahoney6878

Жыл бұрын

@@robsarnowski6313 also many of the bayonets issued were basically swords, which led to the use of knives and clubs.

Nailed it! Especially on points (e.g. rendering articulating armor non-functional, smashing opponent's sword, no need for edge alignment) that often get too little attention. Onr more addition--in line with the value of the sword as a sidearm, but sometimes one better--a mace (like you've mentioned previously with indigenous clubs, tomahawks etc.) *is handier to carry around*, and the sidearm that's best is the one you're carrying, not leaving behind. :p

It’s multidirectional nature also provides 2-3 additional benefits. It is easier to train or learn how to use bc you can ignore edge alignment and plus it’s strength makes you have to worry less during training and fighting. Next, you can train with sticks or other things in backyard better and skill from one transfer better to other (maybe you dint have mace but have stick in bad scenario). Lastly, you can do attacks from more directions or switch up making it harder to defend and predict

@gadlicht4627

Жыл бұрын

Also with defense it’s multidirectional nature might be better

The crown servant you are looking for is The Provost Marshal. I believe York was one of the first cities to have such a position.

Wielding a mace properly is all about timing and momentum. Once the swing of the mace has begun, stopping it or slowing it down is difficult. The fighter is committed to not just the blow, but also the recoil. Begin your strike when the opponent is leaning forward, hopefully off balance. It is completely predictable that he will lean backward, so aim for a point behind his head. By the time the mace gets there, his head will be in its path. -Mace Etiquette, Skyrim :D

A few advantages of the mace would also come from the fact that you don't have to maintain it. All of the time spent sharpening a sword could be spent training with the mace instead. You also don't have to worry about the mace losing its edge during or after a battle. As long as you can swing it, it's in fighting shape.

Very good presentation. I have experience with the mace as a police officer. We were issued a 26” baton made of the same substance as a bowling ball so they had weight. We also used metal flashlights weighted with 5-6 d-cell batteries. Any place we hit was disabled with one blow much as a sword might. Blood loss takes a while to have effect, generally speaking. I sword or knife can “reach into “ an opponents body to damage organs and that’s about the only advantage they have. Blocking with a mace does not require as much movement because it’s weight can deflect a lighter weapon. It lacks hand protection and I have injured my hand when my opponent ducked his head and my fingers hit his head. Your point on length and the swords sweet cutting spot is correct, I would only add that maces can be had in greater length as well. Overall a great overview. My compliments

@MinSredMash

Жыл бұрын

Maces weren't heavier than most swords.

I do remember when young media definitely influenced my opinion on swords been best, but as I got older and looked into it I have a massive appreciation for maces, warhammers and mauls.

Another time you might want a less-lethal weapon is when trying to take a high- ranking enemy for ransom.

@markfergerson2145

Жыл бұрын

@@XCodes Exactly.

@robertwildschwein7207

Жыл бұрын

Mancatcher is probably better for that

@markfergerson2145

Жыл бұрын

@@robertwildschwein7207 Not if they're wearing a beaver or gorget.

@keithstone8693

Жыл бұрын

@@robertwildschwein7207 tf you gonna do with a mancatcher in a battlefield lol. What, you gonna snag a nobleman by the neck (who’s most likely wearing plate or brigandine) , and hope he doesn’t stab or smack you in the process? you really want to be the one schmuck that chooses to carry a fricking mancatcher into the battlefield, as opposed to a poleaxe/polehammer or a mace? Neither does the other guy lol

@robertwildschwein7207

Жыл бұрын

@@keithstone8693 But a mace or polehammer might kill and a poleaxe will either kill or slide off the curved armor surface, while a Mancatcher won't kill.

So to transcribe it into video game terms, really high durability, decreased durability usage, increased durability damage, increased damage to stamina when striking shields, doesnt apply the bleeding out debuff to the enemy or the stuck weapon debuff to you, can deal reduced damage through armor instead of having to fish for critical hits like with a sword, increased strength damage scaling, decreased dexterity damage scaling, low minimum dexterity to use, can't deal critical hits but has a lower chance to miss (due to wider range of opportunity to make successful hits from not needing edge alignment), lower attack speed, more stamina use per swing, more likely to disarm and shield break seems like putting a spike on the top would be pretty advantageous, no? what kind of shield do you think would pair best with a mace in a given circumstance? Something light and nimble or something heavier and larger?

@Bonglazer333

Жыл бұрын

spike makes weapon longer, harder to wear, makes it more potentially lethal and harder to wield non-lethally (which might not be desirable) as well as signals lethal intent.

@uncledoctor6920

Жыл бұрын

I'd argue against it. You already have a weapon that can concuss, cause internal bleeding, can deform armor, can break bone, and can break other weapons and shields and more. A spike would be more for jamming into an armor gap, which what's the point if you can just deliver huge kinetic force straight through it? As for a shield, something maneuverable would be preferable. A heater, a mini kite, or even a buckler would help. That or you could go empty handed and use the free hand for grappling, swords are better for grappling and half swording already, you'd be able to match a sword wielding opponent in terms of versatility by having a free hand provided you've got sufficient armor.

If you managed to get into the enemies trench during the First World War, a short mace is better than a sword, I’d say.

@jethrovaningen

Жыл бұрын

For most soldiers, the only chance to get stuck into a trench currently occupied by the enemy would be during a night raid. I don't believe the type of melee weapon matters that much in a raid where the goal is to kill or capture enemies in their sleep. I find it hard to believe there is much difference in effectiveness between killing a defenseless man with a club or with a blade. You might be right here, but to me it seems a distinction without a difference.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

And the shovel which was essentially a two-flanged mace was very popular.

@jordanthomas4379

Жыл бұрын

@@toddellner5283 yes, E-tools were very effective, almost like an improvised mace, I have mentioned them in a previous video. This video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/X4Gax6WSis6_cag.html

@s3watch

Жыл бұрын

@@jethrovaningen I think the distinction in in the length of the weapon, with swords being _usually_ longer and thus more unwieldy in a narrow trench (plus Matts edge alignment comments) Plus its worth noting the in the as trench warfare became more common swored were withdrawn from being issued as part of the fight armaments whereas trench clubs were still being home made and bought, hunting knives were popular too, which increases the likelihood that swords were not as good for trench warfare.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

A friend whose grandfather and great uncle served in WWI asked what they carried in the trenches. 1911, 12 gauge shotgun (Winchester 1897), Bowie knife, and shovel. And standing orders to kill on sight any artillery crew with gas shells

Maces did break as well. Especially the cast bronze maces which were used mostly up until the 2nd half of the 14th c. and the advent of plate armour. They would break, get dented, etc and it's backed by many extant examples in museums. The flanged iron maces also broke, but in a different way where one or two of the flanges break off. The difference is that you can easily repair them by forge welding a new flange to replace the old one.

10th and 11th century Byzantine cataphract cavalry used maces in their charges. They were considered extremely effective at penetrating massed infantry formations. Lances were used by lighter byzantine cavalry who charged at a gallop, where the cataphracts charged at a trot, this made lances less effective and allow the mace to function as a shock weapon to disrupt the enemy infantry line.

Open wounds can also be more lethal by leading to infections, which were much harder to deal with in the medieval period than today. That might also lead to perception of blunt weapons as less lethal

@inncubus666

Жыл бұрын

...and thereby unintended death too.

@ArkhBaegor

Жыл бұрын

Broken bones were very lethal too, mind

Another point I would like to add, if you needed to bolster your ranks quickly, as you saw the armored forces marching your way, arming your laborers with maces, who already were strong and able to use that strength for long days of work, it could be the difference between a win or a loss. Very little training is required for a strong person to be useful in battle when they are using a mace.

Matt. Were maces & hammers more popular in certain regions? For example were maces preferred in Italy over hammers? We're hammers more common in Germanic regions?

@michaldudas7174

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure about the statistics. But I can mention that in medieval Central and Eastern Europe - Bohemia, Poland and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and maybe even in Hungary, the mace was an attribute of a commander. Even later, in 16th and 17th century Polish Rzeczpospolita, a mace called bulava, often decorated with gold or silver inlays, would be a commanders' insignia. A nobleman would be given a bulava when receiving the command.

The point about smashing armor joints is a good one. Even if it does not wound the man inside, a mechanically locked knee, elbow or shoulder joint can be just as effective.

Amazing content. I am constantly blown away. this right here is exactly the type of information that serious fantasy wargamers are looking for.

Maces are probably my favorite medieval weapons, so very glad to see this video. Thanks for sharing, Matt. Very interesting discussion.

I agree with everything said about fighting someone in plate but would also point out how common mail was back then and how devastating a mace would be against mail only. Mail is great against slashing weapons like a sword but gives little to no protection against a bludgeoning weapon like a mace.

@HanaTheSloth

Жыл бұрын

I wonder if that is true? Mail with gambeson or padding underneath should have quite a bit of give, would that aid in reducing the kinetic energy transfer of a mace strike? I dunno, gonna have to see if any testing has been done. Good thought though.

@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699

Жыл бұрын

@@HanaTheSloth from the way I’ve seen gambeson give when hit by a sword, I don’t see it helping an awful lot against a mace

@uncledoctor6920

Жыл бұрын

@Hana neither would offer much of any protection against a mace strike. Neither gambeson nor chainmail has a rigid structure like plate armor, therefore whatever's underneath will take the brunt of the energy transfer. Chainmail and gambeson work particularly well against swords on account of the kinetic force and weight being focused along a narrow edge, the cutting power is nullified by the chainmail and relatively lighter kinetic force is absorbed by the gambeson. It's not the case with maces however.

Thanks, Matt! Yet again, another educational and entertaining video. Cheers!

Absolutely fascinating. Great information, Matt.

A-mace-ing

I needed this video in my life! You are spot-on, and don't forget about the damage that mace can do to shields, especially wooden shields. It hurts having that shield banged against repeatedly with a heavy, blunt object!

What a brilliant page! Thank you!

What an awesome arming sword you use for comparison at the beginning!

The master has spoken! Ok but flattery aside, I do consider you the best sword (or general arms and armor) KZreadr and a real expert. Thanks.

@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699

Жыл бұрын

I agree, imo Matt just edges it out compared to Skall and both are leagues above shad

After the mace my second favorite is the flail with spikes or studs . So medieval and intimidating. Shock value, most literally.

@hoi-polloi1863

Жыл бұрын

SF author Lois Bujold said of morningstars... "They give the idea of personal space some authority"

@Gameprojordan

11 ай бұрын

I'd be scared using a flail tbh lol

Thank you, Matt, for the excellent video!

Matt, the mace can be used in two ways, with its head up, for letal damage, and inverted like a truncheon with a pommel for doing arrest. Paired with a buckler and dagger it gets quite decent as militia (police) kit.

The Mace. Perfect weapon for Brian Blessed! Chisick...... fresh horses! 😁

What about mace + shield? Another advantage of mace might be its ease of manufacture and relative cheapness. Add to that the comparative lack of training required for effective use. You could maybe field several good fighting men, for the cost of one swordsman? "Number" has a beauty all of its own.

@420JackG

Жыл бұрын

That's what immediately jumped to mind... it's cheap and anyone who can lift it can use it.

@adambielen8996

Жыл бұрын

A good heater shield should be able to defend against something like a poleax. Which would give the attacker a chance to close in with the mace. It also covers whatever the mace lacks in defensive capabilities.

@Ildskalli

Жыл бұрын

But it very much depends on how many people you need to field to begin with. Because if it's more than a dozen, giving them spears is always going to be the optimal solution. Cheap, super effective, and much easier to train for. A mace and shield still require good footwork, coordination, and solid martial basics to use efficiently. A spear only needs to be pointed in the right direction 😬

@MinSredMash

Жыл бұрын

This is backwards for several reason. Maces are not good weapons for men not wearing full armor. They are short and difficult to defend yourself with. And they are not the best choice for attacking plate-armored men on foot. More importantly almost no one was fielding sword+shield combatants in the first place. Just about everyone brought either a polearm or a bow. Swords and maces were sidearms.

@420JackG

Жыл бұрын

@@MinSredMash people were largely armed with spears because (among other reasons) they were cheap. Doesn't it stand to reason that those guys needed side arms as well? Of course the obvious answer is that those guys probably already had some kind of axe that they were obliged to carry for domestic reasons, but I do get the man's line of thought. If you're a city arsenal trying to "tool up", as it were, I could see them smelting down a bunch of bronze to cast morningstar heads to provide sidearms for your militia.

Another fascinating video. The fact that maces/truncheons are still widely used is, I think, testament to the weapon's utility and ubiquity. Thanks Matt!

Interesting, thank you for a fascinating lectur.

Matt, I'd like to hear your thoughts on something regarding shields. I have this little theory that there would have been a number of martial systems where shields were utilised a little bit like "sword-breakers". In the event that an opponent cuts into your shield with a bladed weapon, it strikes me a great opportunity to bind their weapon with your shield, which is a huge deal. Considering the different kinds of shields, and the differences between boss-gripped, and strapped shields; I think this could be an interesting little rabbit hole, and maybe worthy of a little bit of experimental archaeology.... :^)

@stevenscott2136

Жыл бұрын

You could certainly hack at the sword with the shield (assuming it's a smallish shield), much like he's suggesting for the mace.

@eldorados_lost_searcher

Жыл бұрын

I've seen this argument before, can't remember if it was a Skall, Shad, or Roland video. But they were talking specifically about the thin edge of the Viking period shield, and how an opponent could have their weapon bite into it, and that would give you a momentary chance to take advantage. You could twist the shield (it being a center grip is at an advantage in this instance) and either pull your opponent off balance or wrench the sword out of their grip, or try for a finishing strike while they're bound up.

@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699

Жыл бұрын

That’s a good idea but you might also be lugging that sword around if no opportunity presents itself during the battle to take it out. Considering the center of percussion will be the part in the shield, it will be very annoying having the hilt so far away

@uncledoctor6920

Жыл бұрын

@Garret LeBuis was going to say thr exact same thing. Yes it was a Shad video, and the vikings did it deliberately to disarm their opponents. I can just imagine a jolly viking laughing from the gut as he wrenches an axe out of his enemy's hand as it got stuck in the shield.

@tommeakin1732

Жыл бұрын

@@uncledoctor6920 You people and your love of that particular criminal demographic make me physically cringe. It only gets worse when you consider that it's statistically likely that you have more in common with the victims of those criminals and the people that kicked them back into the sea, than the criminals. Modern people can be fucking weird.

Odd note, but after playing Blade and Sorcery in VR for a while, I can agree that using a sword to deal with a fully amored opponent is ridiculously frustrating. 😂

@uncledoctor6920

Жыл бұрын

If you haven't already, you ought to check out the historical weapons pack on mod nexus. It's got a ton of weapons from the medieval Era like pole axes, Lange messers, rondel daggers, as well as weapons from other cultures.

Good stuff, Matt.

On the subject of prohibitions on the use of bladed weapons by the clergy, there are medieval canons that prohibit clergy from using weapons in anger, but the application of those canons is at times uncertain. As with the modern concept of just war, whether in secular or Christian teaching, there were exceptions when it was deemed appropriate, or at least excusable, for a clergyman to use a weapon, especially in defence of another or in self defence. This principle applies to this day - by virtue of their calling and vocation, clergy may not use force in anger, but common law, secular and ecclesiastical alike, accepts that they may be compelled to do so.

@eldorados_lost_searcher

Жыл бұрын

There's probably a reason for the stereotype of priests being competent boxers.

@CyrilDash

Жыл бұрын

@@eldorados_lost_searcher Indeed. Much less controversial (and easier on one’s conscience) to resolve a conflict without lethal force, situation permitting, so clipping a local miscreant round the ear far preferable to running him through with a sword, tempting as it may be. Ditto for any enthusiastic fellows offering to collect a particularly precious chalice and paten and move them to an undisclosed location at no cost to the parish…

Modern police phrasing often uses the term "less lethal" for many weapons other than firearms. Still potentially lethal, but not nearly as likely to be lethal.

I have been on this kick of breaking things down to pure fundamentals when looking at things. I think it helps to explain things better. Weapons are simply tools. Guns are basically internal combustion engines where the energy is not restrained. Unless you are transferring a chemical aka poison of some sort, weapons are ways to transfer energy in a way that will damage the target. Basically if you look at it that way blades are higher formes of technology and the energy transfer is extremely focused. That means that they need very little energy to be effective. The problem is a material properties one if whatever your weapon can dish out can fail if the target is to robust. There is always an arms race when armor gets better and it will require more energy and or a material that can handle the impact. The United States army is fielding a new rifle for exactly the same reason. It's actually interesting to compare since as firearms developed they went to a lighter weapon that was easier to move and would be more like a sword but as soon as armor comes along then they go heavy like a mace. There seems to be a circle where as armor comes in weapons change until it's no longer worth wearing armor and then we go back to light weapons.

@duggygee6387

Жыл бұрын

Is the new rifle mentioned the XM5?

@stormiewutzke4190

Жыл бұрын

@@duggygee6387 Yes. I guess they are worried about armor. They were using kevlar so soft flexible like mail then switched up to hard steel plates. The have some layered stuff to but it gets broken if anything hits it. I just find it interesting that since we need real people to go into combat we still work around what a body can hold up in and fight in.

very clinical breakdown. i just found this channel.

Hey Matt, great video as always. Can you make an other one about the differences between maces and warhammers? The look is different of course, but the usage seems very similar...

Recently had a conversation with someone about what melee weapon would be best in "the zombie apocalypse." My choice was a blunt force weapon like a mace or a shilellagh, while he was adamant on a katana. My fear however with blades is them getting stuck in bone - and isn't it just better to inflict severe blunt force trauma, especially to the head?

@timjackson9334

Жыл бұрын

The baseball bat would become a great club. Like an amber set shilellagh.

@doomedwit1010

Жыл бұрын

Depends on the zombie. If you have to sever the spinal column not just cave in a skull... Hardee to crush the spine from in front. Also depends on zombie. An undead zombie is not affected by crushing a bone vs cutting off a leg will slow it. If it's just a viral thing ... mace might be better but a slit throat might kill those.. no armor on zombies usually. And slow so sword works better than normal? But if you have to destroy the brain? Yeah mace. Stabbing in the face seems troublesome. But then axe seems good. I like axe :-). But then I would probably want a spear?

@stevenscott2136

Жыл бұрын

I think I favor a shield, roughly Captain America-size. I can edge-punch faces with it, batter skulls with the flat, hack down onto arms and legs (or grounded skulls), ram into zombies to knock them out of my path, and dash through a loose swarm with the shield providing significant protection. It would also permit the additional use of hammer, machete, pistol, etc in the free hand. Also, I can easily improvise a shield from common materials using basic tools. Logistics is always a consideration in an apocalypse.

I think Kult of Athena are going to sell a few maces today.

@EroticOnion23

Жыл бұрын

By the Sword has a really good mace collection too, all functional. Got a 16th century German variety from there 🤓

Beautiful collection and an Albion wow. I want the Maximilian

All these videos are fantastic, I look forward to them all. We can't help but look back at history from our perspective, I wonder what life was really like in medieval times, I can only imagine most exchanges must have been over in a second? Aggression, strength, status and size being a big influence on the outcome? I still think the pike would be my first choice, I'd love to know more. Thank you for the videos

WRT breaking blades I'm reminded of a couple incidents in Northern European sagas where people paused in fighting to force their bent swords back into something they could fight with (and doubtless prayed to all the warlike gods that it wouldn't break before combat was over). And that was just normal wear-and-tear. If someone's taking the equivalent of a hammer to your sword the results could be even worse. Have you done any work on how well period shields stand up to maces and polearms?

It depends on the ｃｏｎｔｅｘｔ. In the end, it's all about ｐｅｎｅｔｒａｔｉｏｎ.

Great info!

Hi Matt, it would be interesting to explore how sword restriction in civilian setting worked in the past. Clearly arms regulation is an age-old issue, and there would be interesting lessons that can be applied to modern context.

Yesss! Love me some mace content!

@duck653

Жыл бұрын

bruh watch the vid first

@Ennoblex

Жыл бұрын

​@@duck653 I was just looking forward to the video mate

Everything said makes great sense. I would add that idiot princelings are less likely to fall on their maces (or scepters) and impale themselves than they would be if armed with a sword. Self injury altogether would be less likely with a blunt weapon than with a sharp one.

@Armored_Muskrat

Жыл бұрын

Those princelings came from a warrior class and were most likely highly trained. I doubt that was much of an issue.

@laserbrain7774

Жыл бұрын

@@Armored_Muskrat Im pretty sure you have that not only wrong but backwards.

@Armored_Muskrat

Жыл бұрын

@@laserbrain7774 Guess you don't know much history then.

@laserbrain7774

Жыл бұрын

@@Armored_Muskrat right back at ya.

Good stuff! Cheers!

You make some really compelling arguments here. I think the earlier points you make, specifically with regard to the mace's potential use in law enforcement situations, invites yet another conversation. That is, how were various wounds, delivered by various weapons, actually treated in Medieval times? It's important to realize what a terrifyingly effective killer was _infection._ If you're trying to "bring someone to justice", and you stab them with a sword; even if you only inflict a minor stab-wound; it is almost certain to result in infection; without immediate attention from someone who knows something of medicine. Bruises can get infected.. But that would be far less-certain than with a stab wound. Great vid! :)

I'm really curious how men at arms or knights chose their weapons before battle... Not all soldiers on the battlefield were covered in full plate, so having a sword as a backup weapon might seem more logical if you expect to go up against less well equipped opponents. Did they always expect to face their equals? Or did some specialize in facing their equals and others in going after the opponents "weaker" infantry?

@alicelund147

Жыл бұрын

I think they had to be prepared to fight anyone on the battlefield. The heavy cavalry was the elite troops that had to fight everyone.

@takingbacktoxic7898

Жыл бұрын

I am guessing they would likely pick the one they feel they are most skilled with. Then a backup dagger. While weapons have pros and cons, when it comes to actually stacking up and getting it done, you go with the weapons you trust the most. Any doubt or hesitation can get you killed.

@b.h.abbott-motley2427

Жыл бұрын

Men-at-arms always had swords. Lance, sword, & mace was common for French men-at-arms in the middle of the 16th century, while Juan Quijada de Reayo assumed lance, estoc, arming sword, hammer, & dagger. It's easy enough to wear a sword & mace or hammer on horseback, so men-at-arms didn't have to choose.

What about two-handed maces? I have seen a lot of two-handed hammers, but I haven't seen a two-handed mace yet (not a antique one at least), if anyone knows a picture of one, please give me the link, I am interested.

@greggs1067

Жыл бұрын

The English “holy water sprinkler” was a long-hafted mace weapon. There are also maces used as signs of office which were mounted on 4-6 foot hafts. (Sorry, I do not have pictures handy).

@b.h.abbott-motley2427

Жыл бұрын

They existed. Italian observers claim English soldiers used large numbers of 6ft spiked maces in the 16th century. Two-handed spiked maces also appear from Italy & other parts of Europe. They always or almost always have a top spike for thrusting. I think of them as a variation on the pollaxe & halberd: a polearm you can strike & thrust with.

I was pleased to see this. I have always argued that versus armour a mass weapon was the best weapon.

Notably, Juan Quijada de Reayo's mid-16th-century text recommends using the arming sword over the hammer for a man-at-arms. His order was as follows: lance, estoc, arming sword, hammer, & finally dagger. A Renaissance cavalry hammer isn't exactly the same as a mace, but it's quite similar. French cavalry commonly had maces until the pistol displaced them in the late 16th century but it's unclear whether they used them before their swords. Pietro Monte praised a weapon he called a club or mace, but was more of a warhammer by the modern definition based on his description. He suggested carrying a slightly longer one to use in both hands from the saddle. He didn't clearly say whether he preferred it over a sword.

@cwmyr

Жыл бұрын

Excellent information! Do you know where one could find these primary sources, preferably online ?

I would imagine in armor a mace might be less tiring in some ways. Fencing requires a lot of movement if the entire body. A mace has to be used with force and up close so it's not like you are fencing with it. You only swing if you think you can hit.

@Specter_1125

Жыл бұрын

Remember that a mace is more tiring than a sword to even just hold due to the weight distribution.

Would not a mace be relatively cheap and easy to manufacture as compared to a sword? And also there's the question of maintenance; one doesn't have to be constantly mollycoddling a mace in order to get it to function properly.

@Arqane

Жыл бұрын

Easy to use, easy to maintain. Any engineer can tell you how useful some of the most basic and non-overly engineered items are.

@b.h.abbott-motley2427

Жыл бұрын

The main people who used maces in 15th/16th-century Europe were men-at-arms. Cost wasn't a major issue for them.

@mnorris790

Жыл бұрын

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Regardless it's not as if they grew on trees. If they didn't care about the price then whoever was arming them must have.

@b.h.abbott-motley2427

Жыл бұрын

@@mnorris790 Men-at-arms always carried swords too. & they had full armor & a warhorse (possibly multiple mounts), which were rather costly. They didn't go for maces or hammers because these weapons were cheap. One 16th-century Spanish jousting manual that addresses what the man-at-arms should do in war lists lance, estoc, arming sword, hammer, & dagger as the weapons carried, & to use them in that order when fighting other men-at-arms. So it's not completely clear why men-at-arms had maces/hammers, as at least according Juan Quijada de Reayo they used the arming sword before the impact weapon against other riders in full harness, thrusting for the weak points. In that scheme, perhaps the hammer or mace was useful as a convenient & robust third-tier sidearm, to wield after losing or breaking the estoc & arming sword.

@mnorris790

Жыл бұрын

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Seems like cheapness is a virtue in a robust third tier sidearm.

For Janissaries Kilij was indeed 100% backup weapon, they would use it only when their primary weapon lost, broken etc never otherwise. They were carrying spears, maces, polearms and using them as primary. Especially if they were against Knights maces were extremely common. They were carrying a kalkan and mace while trying to close distance as fast as possible so they could use their maces in close range.

Loved your amazing points and historical context of maces. Mr. Easton, I'm such a novice and pointedly ignorant of what a professional such as yourself knows, so your videos are wonderful to learn from! Question = to your point about the availability of swords in medieval times, were maces considerably cheaper to produce? I assume yes (compared to swords) but still leave the answer to you. Thanks! ~ Eric

When talking about weapons on the battlefield in medieval Europe, youtubers always focus on killing potential and how easily it can be used to kill a foe... but would that have always been the intention on the battlefield? In much of Central and South America there were many societies that preferred to take members of opposing armies alive (either to enslave them or for ransom) rather than killing them. These warriors tended to use weapons more akin to clubs or maces because it was easier to incapacitate without killing. Perhaps there were times on the medieval battlefields when it would have been preferable to take as many of the opposing army alive? Even in places/times where there wasn't slavery, an invading army wouldn't necessarily want to kill all the commoners in the opposing army if they were looking to occupy the land afterwards.... there'd be no one left to work the fields.

@chrisplatten2293

Жыл бұрын

Anything that stops someone else hitting you back is a win. Break someone's sword arm with a mace and they will probably lose interest in hitting you. OK a minority may continue to offend you with their offhand, but most will stop.

@alicelund147

Жыл бұрын

It was like that with nobles in Medieval Europe. You could get a ransom for them.

@Ildskalli

Жыл бұрын

It rarely, if ever, was convenient for armies to take many prisoners in Medieval Europe. The nobles that you could ransom for sweet cash, sure, they were usually treated well and protected, because the people paying the ransom would not take it well if their dear lord/sire/brother/whatever came back missing fingers or teeth. Although not always, as the many wars of succession show us (often, the captured would-be monarchs and their direct families were summarily executed, to prevent further, ahem, "complications"). The commoners, though, were killed savagely: they were many more mouths to feed, and in a war, food was always the first casualty; for a defending army, they were worthless, because the invaders would never ransom them, and the captives couldn't be trusted as additions to one's army, except in very special circumstances; and for invaders, they could easily become the brunt of a resistance movement or revolt later on - it was much safer to put them to the sword and replace them with your own people.

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

Of course in Central and parts of South America prisoners were to be sacrificed and eaten. Getting them back alive, not necessarily in fact but alive, was important

@Ildskalli

Жыл бұрын

@@toddellner5283 In parts of North and Central America, you mean, because ritual cannibalism wasn't a thing down here in South America.

vs armor or when you are NOT a trained fighter that knows how to edge align a sword or thrust with precision oooga booga style has its merits, just hit them with the heavy end any way you can. I bet there is techniques for mace but you don't need to know much to do the job.

Nice video! I've always been a fan of Maces, Hammers, and Axes. With my wrists, it's easier for me to use than a sword.

The best advantage out the gate I can think of is. Is that it doesn't require much training to use effectively. Just swing repeatedly until your target goes down.

I have to disagree with your first comment about a maces damage vs an unarmored person, at least that steel mace with a steel flanged head, and when used with force. Just think about how devastating an aluminum baseball bat is, yeahh they have more reach but they're also hollow and weigh less than 1.5lbs. a steel hafted mace with a steel flanged head is gonna absolutely shatter bones.

@kendallgaj7834

Жыл бұрын

A kneecap being smashed wont likely kill you, a leg being hacked mage bleed you out and give you an infection. A mace swung half as hard does half as much, a blade swung half as hard just hits like a cane (no damage) or still cuts (back to possible infection).

@mnk9073

Жыл бұрын

@@kendallgaj7834 Bold of you to assume you can get anywhere or do anything right after having your knee cap knee capped. The first strike doesn't need to be lethal if it leaves the enemy wide open for the second absolutely lethal strike.

@Adam_okaay

Жыл бұрын

@@kendallgaj7834 yeahh but a strike to your rib cage, shoulder, hip, femur, etc. is going to shatter bones and certainly disable you, and shattered knee is going to completely disable you and I can then finish you while you're on the ground. Did you know that prior the invention of the Victorian Era leg brace a broken femur had an ~80% mortality rate as a combat injury?

@Adam_okaay

Жыл бұрын

@@mnk9073 exactly. If you disable them then all you have to do is dispatch them. It's not like you shatter their knee and then stop hitting them.

@scholagladiatoria

Жыл бұрын

While broken bones are no joke, they are nowhere even close to as fatal as severing entire body parts, leading to arterial bleed outs, or thrusts through internal organs or airways. Of course a mace can kill a person, but on balance, a sword can kill a person with much less effort and more often.

I always recommend women carry mace for self protection. Not the spray, the kind Matt is presenting here.

@yeolsaltyswordsmen8238

Жыл бұрын

Why? genuinely curious?

@prieterico

Жыл бұрын

@@yeolsaltyswordsmen8238 if a sick fuck tries to do harm to them and they have a mace, then they will fuck his shit up with a few bonks

@toddellner5283

Жыл бұрын

@@yeolsaltyswordsmen8238 It was a joke based on the deadly serious fact that the various chemical sprays are essentially useless against motivated goal-oriented opponents, something we have known for about thirty years

I grew up reading more history than I could’ve imagined. The bludgeon was the weapon I’ve found the most versatile and effective for continuous defense and ease of grappling. The Bar Mace, flanged mace, all the way to the Kanabo from Japan. Depending on what you use as the head. Or how you construct your mace. You can work into the close distance that cuts off the nimble nature of a sword. Battling most any weapon a mace is self safety application which no edged weapon provides makes it the easiest to close the distance and break your opponents foundation with grappling or strikes to the knees and thighs. If you know how to dual wield the smaller variations, you can seriously battle a lot of things You wouldn’t believe.

The mace was the original high status weapon of stone age people from the Levant in the east all the way to the UK. They have been found in high status burial mounds all over. Earlier ones have stone axe/hammer combo heads as well as disc & later you have bronze bar maces being found. Hence why Hercules & Thor both carry impact weapons I would guess. Hercules carries a club/bar mace & Thor a short hammer/axe combo.

So, the mace could be argued to be the medieval equivalent of the .44 magnum: it's big, heavy, a little cumbersome, BUT has immense stopping power. No matter where you hit your opponent, they're gonna stay hit.

@gentlemanzackp6591

Жыл бұрын

in Buhurt community sometimes maces are BANNED for the tournament, that goes for poleaxes/polehammers etc however there is buhurt longswords that are 7 pounds on purpose (thick spine/blunt) they act like thin mace near tip/middle on blade) so this gave some of us insight even a blunt heavy swords could end lives back in old days. the energy transfer still through armors and tenderize muscle fibers. and the enemy crawl all bruised up. however in Buhurt community mace must be certain length, it cant be 21" long (for example ) fulcrum point at wrist compounded with elbow point, even further compounded at shoulder point, that being said acceleration of macehead still exceeds 30-40 mph. heck a stone with sinew wrapped around haft still mess anyone up armored or not.

@Ildskalli

Жыл бұрын

I'd say they're more like a sawed-off shotgun: relatively compact, packs a huge punch, and needs only to be pointed in the general direction of an attacker to ruin their day. Whereas a sword is more like an automatic carbine: it can sub in for most other weapons, and can be very effective, but it needs great skill to be used properly. It'll also never be smaller than a pistol, be able to blast things like a shotgun, or be as effective from a distance as a proper rifle, but it's more versatile than any of those.

Bishop Oddo carried a club because he was a Priest. Traditionally, the clergy were not supposed to shed blood so would carry a club or staff for self defence or more rarely into battle. Apparently the good Lord was not keen on his holy men spilling the claret but broken bones and stoved in skulls were okay.

@xthebumpx

Жыл бұрын

There's no historical evidence for this, and it's pretty nonsensical since a mace will still spill plenty of blood.

When carrying a mace strapping on a heavy buckler is a beautiful idea for your left arm as it leaves you still capable of using your dagger with your left hand if I remember right one particular Warrior had a tendency to fit his boxing strips & heavy greve serious left hand when he went into battle either brandishing an ax or a mace because originally he was a stonecutter so he was an extremely strong aux basically I wish I could remember his name or who he championed for but he would challenge the champion of another Army for single combat and most likely for the day it was said he would beat the other opponents into submission and leave him standing in the field incapable of returning Sirius online or continuing the attacks when time it was said he fought simply for 20 head of cattle and a ceasefire until the following morning I just remembered he was a Spartan fancied himself as a part-time boxer for the Olympics he carved stone with his knuckle rings as boxing practice

Police today have training manuals for use of baton, nightstick, sap, heavy flashlight, etc. They teach that these things can kill, very likely would kill with certain hits, and are very specific about what not to do. They teach instead how to hit to end a fight, without killing. For the suggested civilian uses of a mace, the user might very well have thought about how not to kill, yet at the same time win suddenly, quickly, overwhelming even a powerful and difficult opponent. The same lessons would apply to cutting down an armored opponent step-by-step, hitting the arms and legs first, to cripple before trying to kill. The medieval manuals may not cover it, but there are plenty of very well considered modern manuals and instructors available on the subject.

did you not bend a mace in the past

@raditicat

Жыл бұрын

you can still use it :D

@scholagladiatoria

Жыл бұрын

Yes, the Deepeeka, but that was a bad replica and the reason for the bend was because it wasn't made properly.

@jimelliott8931

Жыл бұрын

@@scholagladiatoria still ill bet there were cheap and dodgy constructed maces in history. Plus some had wooden shafts which aren't indestructible. I suppose they are short but still could be damaged

Visit the WWI Museum in Kansas City Missouri. Clubs and maces were used in trench warfare. They have vintage weapons that are actual artifacts from the conflict.

I would imagine an advantage that doesn't seem to be covered here is the momentum of a mace swung full force to carry on through the inertia of a parry of a lighter weapon, such as sword. If you are trying to divert the energy of a heavy thing moving fast with a relatively lighter thing moving equally as fast, the heavier thing will not stop moving when met with the resitance of the lighter thing and both now will be traveling back towards the target of the heavier thing. An over head swing with a mace on an opponent with a sword would likely still carry on to knock the guy in the noggin, even if he tries to block or parry the blow