"But, he was not a goth. He was emo, maybe a scene kid, we don't actually know." Wonderful analysis as always.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

As a former wannabe emo who didn’t actually have problems but still likes metal \m/\m/ this comment both brings me joy and offends me lmao

@davidnotonstinnett

Жыл бұрын

He is just saying what everyone born after 1980 thought when learning Roman history

Justinian: Prevent the fall of Rome Justinian: Made Rome fall Justinian: Actually no, Rome fall a long time ago, don't look at me

@gunarsmiezis9321

Жыл бұрын

What else do you expect from such a vile man that brings hevy taxes to his people opressive laws and torture chambers to any who refuse to pay just so he could live lavishly in palices.

@andrews.5212

Жыл бұрын

The authors seems to have a very heavy antiRoman probarbarian stance.. Rome is no gym membership you can pay visit once a month. And certainly not that garbage the hre was

@deleted-something

Жыл бұрын

ye

@anastastsankov5479

Жыл бұрын

phahahhah, that was a good one! And Constantinopole residents, blown away responding: WHAT WAS THAT?? ROME DID WHAT?!?!

@magnem1043

Жыл бұрын

based

I watched a video describing Justinian's reconquest of Italy as "creating a desert and calling it peace" in the true Roman manner, and it's stuck in my mind ever since.

@barrymoore4470

Жыл бұрын

That's a particularly famous line from Tacitus, who was so skeptical and critical of Roman imperialism.

@gunarsmiezis9321

Жыл бұрын

Asha Logos intriduced to me the phraze Justinian the wreched which explination of why he is called that and I have called him that ever since.

@Joanna-il2ur

Жыл бұрын

Yes it’s Tacitus Agricola 23, describing how the Romans destroyed Britain by introducing fancy banquets and hot baths.

@john.premose

Жыл бұрын

I see it as a kind of proto-fascism. The idea that Roman purity had to be restored and a revisionist history, coming from an upstart outsider who didn't really understand the thing which he was trying to "restore". I see this pattern repeated over and over

@Fummy007

Жыл бұрын

Quote from Caraticus the Pictish King in a Roman History.

I believe an aspect that is worth more attention is that the Roman Empire had seen divided political rule repeatedly over its history prior to the fall. Co-rulers, usurpers, break-away regions, civil wars etc. I think it makes sense that few believed this would be the "final" division as there had been so many episodes like this that the empire had survived.

@blushdog99

Жыл бұрын

Crises of the third century when those 2 break away regions declared themselves emperor

@olliefoxx7165

Жыл бұрын

That's a good point. When law and order ceased in the people's day to day life for an extended period of time that's when things would become clear to the average person.

@greywolf7577

Жыл бұрын

Yes, but Rome was always reunited with military force. So why were people surprised when Justinian also tried to reunite Rome with military force. The video made it seem like people in the West were surprised that Justinian was declaring war on them, but that's what always happened when Rome was reunited.

@Goknub

Жыл бұрын

@@greywolf7577 I would argue it was Justinian classifying them as non-Roman that was the surprise. It also depends on which group you're talking about. I see parallels with ancient Japan, where the Shogun fought each other while also acknowledging the position of Emperor.

@captainconundrum8463

Жыл бұрын

@@greywolf7577 They were probably always surprised by it. The difference is that subjugated people don't speak, but Justinian's campaign failed.

There's an anecdote by Byzantine historian Peter Charanis that touches on this, When the Greeks united Lemnos with the mainland around 1912. The story goes that, when Greek troops first landed, a bunch of local children had come out to watch them arrive. When the Greek soldiers asked them why they were gawking, the children said “we’ve never seen Greeks before.” The soldiers were surprised and asked if the Lemnians were not Greek themselves. The boys replied: “We’re not Greek, we’re Roman.” The Byzantines kept their Roman identity for a thousand years and even Ottoman occupation didn't full wipe it out. Kind of like how some peoples I've met in Iraq still claim Assyrian heritage.

@Dave102693

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting

@vladprus4019

Жыл бұрын

There are more tinhgs like that. For example: etymology of "Romania" is literally "Land of the Romans", as those Latin-speakers there never really stopped calling themselves "Romans", it just "Romans" gradually morphed into what we know as "Romanians"

The idea of Rome living on in its former citizens has always been fascinated to me. I'm reminded of a very extreme example of a group of Greek boys speaking with soldiers during WW2, calling themselves Roman instead of Greek. I think that had Justinian just appointed the barbarian rulers in the west to pseudo-governer positions, using Rome's reputation to assure the authority of the kings, perhaps Roman rule in western Europe could've lasted longer. However, things would probably turn out bad anyways. I can imagine a succession crisis in Constantinople causing barbarian kingdoms to break away permanently, and with time the idea of a "fall of Rome" would grow in the minds of everyone, such as it did with Marcellinus and Justinian.

@shaq6976

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, Rome was gonna fall eventually. No one, no people no Nation no culture survives Time

@MrChickennugget360

Жыл бұрын

of course, more than anything else the Islamic conquests were a factor in the breakdown of "Roman" identity.

@MartinRichardi

Жыл бұрын

@@shaq6976 tell that to germánics, Frankish, Greeks, indians and chinese

@grahamparks1645

Жыл бұрын

There was still the issue of the Papacy and the arrogance of the bishop of Rome to try to rule the church and issue binding edicts and decrees. Whereas in the East the church was under the authority of the Emperor with the Emperor as the true head of the church would have still forced a split as would have iconoclasm.

@shaq6976

Жыл бұрын

@@MartinRichardi i cant, their Empires died out and their Descendants are living in warped Nation states. Like I said, no Empire no Culture survives the test of Time

The Roman Senate continued to meet into the 7th century. It was really the Lombards who severed the civic traditions in the West and replaced them with feudal monarchy.

Did Rome truly fall? Are not we all Romans? Well, at least my money has Latin on it.

@ForageGardener

Жыл бұрын

Thats more like it

@Moepowerplant

Жыл бұрын

Well, the Han dynasty fell and the territory broke up into three states. Ditto the Tang dynasty. And yet today there is mainland China (and a de facto separate state of Taiwan). Today there is the EU... and a host of nations that arose from Romanized tribes. So... yeah?

@Rand0mGypsy

Жыл бұрын

We are all times new roman

@chrisvb4387

Жыл бұрын

I do have the same train of thought. All those that follow Roman culture or draw from it. From the Philippine republic in the far east, to the United Ststes of America's republic in the west. We all are quite the continuation of res publica, of the imperio romanorum

@Meirstein

Жыл бұрын

Rome can never fall, because the real Rome were the friends we made along the way.

The actual last emperor of the west was Julius Nepos, not Romulus Augustulus. When Odoacer deposed Augustulus, both Odoacer and the Roman governor of Gaul, Syagrius, minted coins acknowledging Nepos as Roman Emperor, who had been living in exile in Dalmatia. The year that this last emperor was murdered was also the same year the Franks invaded Gaul, suggesting that the murder of Nepos had far greater consequences for the west than the modern narrative is telling us.

Awesome take. When I was young, I idealized the Romans and Greeks. Now I understand that they got in their own way so much, and the Roman Empire fell when it had to. Both in the West, and in the East.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Hoping this video does well

@drakehashimoto685

Жыл бұрын

It is inevitable for any empire to fall. How it falls, what factors cause (long term/short term), and what not. I feel you though

@lilith4961

Жыл бұрын

@@drakehashimoto685 my Middle school social studies teacher told us "If there is one thing that you remember from class, it has to be this one, Empire goes up! Empire goes down!"

@drakehashimoto685

Жыл бұрын

@@lilith4961 That logic pretty much refers to any state essentially, but with the middle sections being their longevity

@lilith4961

Жыл бұрын

@@drakehashimoto685 yep but it's funny how people in the current global powers seem to think they will be the exception

Wonderful stuff! So much of history hinges on how we define things as much as the events; in other words, our reactions are at least as important as the things as they occur.

That was fascinating. I have read, listened to and watched many analyses of when and why Western Rome fell, but I have never seen this argument as laid out here, which is incredibly compelling. Justinian retroactively engineered the fall of the Western Roman Empire half a century earlier. Incredible. And beyond Rome itself, it raises all kinds of intriguing philosophical questions about perception vs reality.

Justinians conquest of Italy sadly enough destroyed Rome, and began the destruction of the east. North Africa worked out ok though.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

That’s the great shame of it, yeah. North Africa worked out. If he had left the Ostrogoths alone and worked to further incorporate them into the Roman Empire, I don’t see a reason why it couldn’t have really come back in force

@ForageGardener

Жыл бұрын

Well thats not only it, thats when he ideologically abandoned the west and made the east the "real" rome and the west the "lost" rome. And the people living there saw the failure and alienation and so diverged.

@savvageorge

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the east was really devastated by Justinian. It only survived as a nation for about 1,000 years after the reign of Justinian.

@josephpercente8377

Жыл бұрын

@@savvageorge true but I was thinking in terms of a Mediterranean wide empire. About 70 years after him the empire was reduced to the balkens and turkey. Whether the empire could have held up better without the Italian morass is a good question.

@savvageorge

Жыл бұрын

​@@josephpercente8377 Maybe Justian made some bad decisions but even 500 years after Justinian in 1,000 AD the empire was still very large. If this country existed today it would be the biggest country in Europe, 4 times the size of modern Germany. Still a major superpower of Medieval Europe with the largest and richest capital city of Europe. The population of Constantinople alone was similar to the population of England.

This is really nice stuff! Great story, great references. Thanks 🙏.

I hardly think Justinian’s imperial conquests can be blamed for the plague or “the year without a sun” crop failures.

Amazing video and analysis as always. Hoping you continue with your Hunnic and Steppe series sometime soon as well.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

I will be. When I moved I actually lost the main book I was using but recently got another copy

@rebanelson607

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome Absent minded professor?🌼

@Researches106

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome تابعونا وشترك في القناه وشكرن

it is interesting that an empire trying his best to save the empire ended up being the one who essentially destroyed the last traces of it in it's own homeland. It's almost mythologically poetic.

Nice looking forward to a video on the Ostrogothic kingdom.Wish we new more about its Military. Defiantly my favorite kingdom.

Wow, this was excellent. I didn't think I would go for another history channel, but your in-depth takes are fascinating, I'm learning so much!

Criminally underrated Chanel, top tier content

Damn. My opinions on Justinian's acts and conquests had been going negative for a while, and I knew that the West considered itself the west at the time, but at the end I didn't consider the massive implications this gave to the Romans and how we understand what is Rome. During Justinian's reign, while he reconquered Italy, much of it was destroyed & Roman legions were preoccupied in the legion for a long time, diverting forces from the (in reality) most important field: the East (which I think is a major reason why Rome long-term would bite the dust, especially considering how the ERE was weakened with the black plague & the Sassanid conquests to a point where it couldn't stand up to the Arabs) I didn't really think of the religious implications to what is Rome now however, and I only thought the inhabitants of Italy saw themselves as Roman during this time, not territories as "far" away as in Frankia. Great video!

@talisikid1618

Жыл бұрын

Actually, both Rome & the Sassanids were weakened & this encouraged the Arabs to expand.

@catalyst772

Жыл бұрын

I for one thought about something at some point. How can you call yourself the Roman Emperor without attempting to retake the city itself.

@ADINSANE

Жыл бұрын

+ insane taxex and refusal to defend it. Conspiracy theory time ? that was the greek revenge for conquest of the hellenic states earlier in the republican age.

@daddy_1453

Жыл бұрын

If Justinian is bad, then a plague being named after his is poetic.

@joso7228

Жыл бұрын

The Eastern Empire didn't fall because Justinian looked West. It was 600 years later to Manzikert and decline.

Great idea for a topic! Now I know what to watch tonite or with breakfast.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Great! Hope you enjoy!

left me thinking damn.. Great video!! this really is making me rethink my entire thinking on Roman Succession

Just discovered this channel. Great stuff!

Fascinating and very persuasive look at the question of Rome’s so-called “fall”… Thanks for another terrific video.

What an incredible question that barely anyone thinks about.

Interesting to see the negative perception of Justinian in the comments, and the sympathies held for the barbarian kingdoms. To me the most Roman thing about Justinian as an Emperor was his desire to bring all of the Empire under his direct authority. Could anyone blame him for having that ambition that so many past Emperors had?

@l-nolazck-rn24

Жыл бұрын

It's the same mistake, repeated for one last time

Thank you for this very interesting video!

Wait so did the Vandal kingdom and its inhabitants see themselves as a part of the Roman world?

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Yes. During the 400s they actively married into the western Roman ruling families and military supported them for a while

@MrNTF-vi2qc

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome Were the Franks too? I can't remember. But I know the Anglo Saxons weren't because they were pagan, but idk about the Britons.

@juliantheapostate8295

Жыл бұрын

@@MrNTF-vi2qc I believe the Franks were Foederati at least for a period, so I think they probably did see themselves as part of the Roman world. I am confident that the Goths did, as they fought against Atilla in Aetius' army

@MrNTF-vi2qc

Жыл бұрын

@@juliantheapostate8295 Probably not past 480s since they attacked and conquered the Kingdom of Soissons which was a Gallic rump state that was definitely a part of the Roman world.

@andrews.5212

Жыл бұрын

They payed lip service for political convenience. The reality is that none of those entities recognized roman authority and acted indipendently. A few late emperor managed to beat a few minor tribes into temporary federatio but by 410 the west had no authority in belgica, hispainia and later africa.

Excellent video. And we see echoes of this 'factionalisation' in many other spheres of life, from religion to politics, even to music. 'You're not the true [insert religion], we are, and we are gonna fight you to prove it!'.

You have a good speaking voice and you've earned a new subscriber.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard!

I just discovered this channel it's really a hidden gem, like how does he have only 62k views?!

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Believe it or not it’s taken about four years to even get to just this point!

Rome may have accidentally shot itself in the chest, but it was Justinian who shot it in the head.

I fundamentally disagree for a few reasons but SUPER interesting video, definitely intending on sharing it. Good job.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much

One of the best videos I've seen in a very long time.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

What an intresting question. I never thought about this before. Thanks jii 🙏🏻

The quantity and quality of your videos are astounding

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

It must have been fascinating to think of the Imperium as intact, just divided between Barbarian Kings until those Kings told the Emperors to mind their own business (cough* Vandals)

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, there’s a great book on this called Empire to Commonwealth: Consequences of Monotheism in Late Antiquity which deals with some of this

@LordWyatt

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome I’ll have to check it out, thanks 🙏 edit: for the record I’m a Christian so I may be biased but I’d still read it. Also as a Christian I don’t approve of what ‘Christians’ did to each other and the empire (especially after the fourth century). Funny that way, I don’t like paganism but I do appreciate art and architecture so I say let Truth speak for itself and don’t attack anyone (self defense is different)

@eldermillennial8330

Жыл бұрын

@@LordWyatt Well, the Frankish digression from Charlemagne’s Filioque clause imposed by his puppet bishops and the Fraudulent “donation of Constantine”, leading all the way down to Vatican 2, clown masses and the pope now banning the Old Mass, all is forcing reasonable Catholics to reconsider the Orthodox position. In short, for all his shortcomings, Justinian had a point. His tactical blunders are a big reason why the Merovingians became weak and vulnerable to Charlemagne’s conquest, ironically.

@talisikid1618

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome accurate or just secular myth?

This was a great video. Thanks!

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

You’re welcome!

Hey man I have always been a huge ancient Rome fanboy and recently have been plowing through the History of Byzantium podcast as my knowledge of the eastern empire is not as good as the west. This video absolutely blew my mind and I have been binging your videos. Great work!

Issue is people don’t differentiate between Roman civilization and the Roman political entity, Rome as a continuous political entity in the west undoubtedly ended 476 while Roman laws, religion, language, architecture etc lived on. Roman civilization never died but the Roman state did and it’s really that simple in my mind.

@barrymoore4470

Жыл бұрын

Except the Roman state itself did endure in the East beyond 476. The citizens of Constantinople in the sixth century and after regarded themselves as Romans, with even Latin remaining an official state language long after Greek became the dominant vernacular among the wider Eastern citizenry.

@gemino4910

Жыл бұрын

@@barrymoore4470 Hence why I specifically said "In the West".

@barrymoore4470

Жыл бұрын

@@gemino4910 Point taken, though as our host here emphasizes, these people in the west still thought of themselves as Romans living under Roman suzerainty, embodied by the 'basileus' in Constantinople.

@gemino4910

Жыл бұрын

@@barrymoore4470 Sure, and I agree that the Roman identity didn't die, but the state was undoubtedly ousted by non-romans. Constantinople recognized Odoacer's Italy, but this in my mind is just a political move on part of the East to avoid the prospect of the eternal city having been conquered by barbarians. Further more, many states saw themselves as Roman, and I think in a societal and legal sense, maybe justifiably so. But I am strictly speaking about political continuity here.

@gemino4910

Жыл бұрын

Also, I think the only way of actually putting a solid date to the "end of Rome" is through political continuity, as simply seeing yourself as Roman would apply to most Roman successor states, Ottomans, Franks, Spaniards and so on. When I mark the end of Rome I do it only in relation to when the Roman government was liquefied by an outside invader.

If you're into this era (and you obviously are lol) Librivox has a great free audiobook called Theodoric the Goth by Thomas Hodgkin. Old school, but very well written.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I’ll check it out!!

Most engrossing, thank you!

Your channel is definitely worth subscribing to

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much! I hope this video keeps gaining traction!

One of your best yet! I think Justinian overreached and ended up crushing his own dreams. If he had just made his law code, and maybe fought in other wars. maybe even including in North Africa and Spain, he could have been considered one of the best emperors ever--even WITH the plague. But instead he let it all slip through his fingers by just trying to grab it.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! I have a video coming on the plague soon!

@barrymoore4470

Жыл бұрын

I do indeed think there is widespread consensus among scholars that Justinian was one of the most eminent later Roman rulers (that is to say, Eastern Roman rulers). The synthesis and codification of Roman law over which he presided was a monumental achievement that resounded down the centuries, his commission of the Church of Holy Wisdom created one of the world's enduring architectural masterpieces which had lasting impact for later civilizations, and the reconquest of North Africa, Italy, and parts of Spain, however malign to human life and property, was a last gasp of Roman imperial might in the wider Mediterranean arena.

@alexandersinger9788

Жыл бұрын

Yes, that would he a very interesting counterfactual ... what if he had not tried to go after Sicily and Italy, would the idea in the West that they were still Roman have persisted for much longer than it actually did. The other question is would that have made a difference come the 7th Century and the Arab Conquest. On that latter question Peter Heather's answer (if I understood him right) seems to be "no".

@Slo-ryde

Жыл бұрын

@@alexandersinger9788 if much of the West considered themselves or identified themselves as Roman, then it was idiotic for Justin to wage war against them… instead he could have used diplomacy with help from the church to bring all the provinces back in the fold giving them a stake in the process… it would have been a no brainer on his part!….. instead he left a devastated Italy, after which even they no longer considered themselves “ romans “ anymore!….. this no doubt left the former provinces further divided and weakened making them ripe for the Islamic conquest….the Muslims probed neighboring lands for weaknesses before they invaded ( like they did with Spain)….and had they met firm resistance in Egypt against the forces of a united Empire, a North African Islamic conquest would have been far less likely.

@alexandersinger9788

Жыл бұрын

@@Slo-ryde "idiotic" is a strong word. In hindsight it is easy to see that it didn't turn out great, certainly not for the population of Italy anyway. You might like Peter Heather's "Rome Resurgent", he gets into this sort of stuff.

What’s interesting is that, nowadays, a lot of newer historiography on the Roman Empire now includes Justinian. I think more people are starting to realize the fall of Rome isn’t as cut and dry as many of us have learned.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Many recent books go up until about 600

Always a good zinger at the end of these, I love it lol.

I liked as soon as I read the title.

I feel that the east forgot the one favour that the west truly gave them. When greece was conquered their language and culture was put on a pedestal alongside Latin language and culture. When the time came for the east to liberate their fallen brothers there was no such respect given to latin in return

@shorewall

Жыл бұрын

Damn Greeks! :D (I say that as someone who always preferred the Greeks to Romans, but the more I study the history, the more I see that the Greeks always fucked things up by being so elitist.)

@ForageGardener

Жыл бұрын

Uhhh, there are wayyyyyy more latin speakers today than there are greek. Modern greek is not the same language as classical greek. So if you want to compare, there us italian, romanian, catalan, castillian, gallician, french, romansch, vlach, portugese, etc They're all just as latin as modern greek is classical greek

@jakegarvin7634

Жыл бұрын

@@ForageGardener? Yeah, that's true. Not really sure how that's relevant to my point though

@shaq6976

Жыл бұрын

@@jakegarvin7634 i don’t get him also, you made a good Point

@jakegarvin7634

Жыл бұрын

@@shaq6976 thanks man I thought I was nuts for a second

Love, that you used res publica romana instead of the word imperium! Truly the military history visualized for the antiquity ;)

@Tommi414

Жыл бұрын

Which is wrong, since after Diocletian the res publica had officially died. The leftover political systems was the dominate and the tetrarchy.

I suspect that the "fall" of the Western Roman Empire was not only political but also economic. The devaluation of the currency, the population decline, and other economic trends were long-term trends that must have taken an increasing toll on the idea of Rome as a worthwhile idea. It would be amazing to have a video on that sometime (unless you have already covered this - I'm a new subscriber). This video was riveting. Thank you!

Amazing video

2:23 basically they just saw Eastern Rome how we see America and this Ostrogothic kingdom as just a vassal continuation of a Roman country empire state but with this Germanic warlord from a Germanic dynasty simply ruling over local Italic aristocrats and senators and law makers. Like how Poland was treated by the USSR or how the Ukraine and Belarus SSRs were to the Russian SSR.

@jackcrasher6945

Жыл бұрын

I would rather use the Exarchate of Ravenna as an analogy for the successor kingdoms.

@vladprus4019

Жыл бұрын

"Ukraine and Belarus SSRs were to the Russian SSR" This is interesting comparison given how current Moscow's narration has some ressemblence with the Jutinian's. And how th einvasion itself shift the Ukrainians perception of themselves in relation to Russians.

@NoShame86

14 күн бұрын

Or like how the Commonwealth of Australia and Canada is to the modern British Crown

Excellent video. Thank you so much. I was a classics minor in college and always felt like I was being lied to about the fall of Rome because people treated Byzantium as a side note. I love getting some light shed on the topic.

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

You’re welcome! I’m happy you enjoyed it

Extremely interesting! Thank you. However I find it hard to understand/ hear it all

Amazing documentary

2:56 so everyone just assumed they lived in a integrated Roman system not realizing it was gone? Just assuming they were autonomous provinces of the Roman state or something?

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

That appears to be what happened, at least with the sources we have surviving. Many of the barbarians wanted to be a part of the Roman world, and they finally were. Everyone looked to Constantinople for legitimacy and political backing. Clovis, king of the franks, even received the title “consul” from Zeno. I did not use it as a source for this video but if you want some reading, Guy Halsall’s “Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West” covers this towards the end of the book

@ForageGardener

Жыл бұрын

Rome was always very open-source. Tax collection was privatized, etc.

@stoferb876

Жыл бұрын

@@ForageGardener Tax collection was privatized under the republic and early empire. Already the early emperors gradually ended the practice in more and more territories, and after the reforms of Theodosius it was definitely gone in the entire empire.

@TesterAnimal1

Жыл бұрын

We all still think we are living in “western civilisation”.

It only makes sense to me that Rome fell many times And I think the fourth crusade was the last Even during the heights of the empire It would splintered and reshaped itself Much like its peoples, customs and religions Today we have this idea of the western world Its definition and borders are changing in our very lifetime

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

I would highly recommend “The Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome”. You’d probably love the book

@Sgrunterundt

Жыл бұрын

If history had turned out slightly different and Europe had emerged from wars in the 20th century as a unified country, then we might still consider it a continuation of Rome. An old country with a 2700 years long history. Occasionally divided but obviously still the same country, in the same way as most people think about China today. Similarly China might have arrived in the modern era as a bunch of smaller nation states the way Europe is in our reality. And we'd think that was the natural way of things.

The real question that might actually give some more insight into the when "Rome fell" conundrum is what it was to be a Roman citizen (both culturally and civically) and how that might have changed over the decades and even centuries. Great video by the way.

"Some people in Constantinople even grumbled that the emperor Justinian himself was a foreigner- that is, a “barbarian”-because he came from the Balkans and spoke Greek with a Latin accent." WARREN TREADGOLD, The formation of a byzantine identity, pp. 325-326

@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl

Жыл бұрын

There is no such thing as byzantine identity. Byzantine is what the westerns used to insult them. No non biased scholarship should use it

@thefutureisnowoldman7653

Жыл бұрын

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl The Byzantine Empire was nothing like the Roman Empire the proceeded it. It makes sense to note the difference the between the two

@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl

Жыл бұрын

@@thefutureisnowoldman7653 and the early roman republic was nothing like late empire. Why don't you consider them different states?

@Lingist081

Жыл бұрын

@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl we do consider them different states.

@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl

Жыл бұрын

@@Lingist081 no you consider them same state and also still Roman.

Theoderich was pretty much all about continuity. Just look at his mausoleum or his order to abandon ostrogothic burial practices. The Ostrogoths during his reign pretty much vanish from the archaeological record of burials.

Great topic! I've always thought the Romans were the only ones who had the right to decide when their glory days had gone. To learn they had actually accepted their fall from power and were debating what the final nail in the coffin is super interesting! Not many of the greatest empires in history reflect on themselves in the end, but the Romans, even the proud Romans, did.

The final words were iconic.

Very interesting video

And to think Justinian’s propaganda survived into the modern day…

I often run into histories that describe Justinian as this grand restorer of the Roman world whose resources didn't match his vision. This is an interesting alternate view to consider. I have to admit I've often thought the resources Justinian poured west would have likely been better spent against the Persians.

Such a great question in this title!

Superb! Thank you!! ;-) ;-) ;-)

"And that's all for sport. In other news today, the Roman Empire fell again and the price of eggs went up fifth week in a row. Now for the latest in weather with Tempestas Lectorem."

Justinian was Thracian just like Belisarios. German historian Hieronymus Wolf conied the term Byzantines. Great video man!

@kingbeauregard

Жыл бұрын

To be sure, the Constantinoploids (whatever you want to call the inhabitants of Constantinople) wouldn't have said they were from "Byzantium". Why would they do that? They'd renamed the place centuries earlier.

@qboxer

Жыл бұрын

@@kingbeauregard I once read that the inhabitants of the city called themselves Byzantines, but that it was simply their demonym. Not sure how true that was.

@nsa6865

Жыл бұрын

they made that word so that the Germans could claim the term Roman. Ironically the people who led to the fall of Rome ended up fetishizing the culture. Look at sieglin in the 19th century, they try and claim (with no source) that the italian leadership in Rome were Nordic peoples.

@Steven-dt5nu

Жыл бұрын

@@nsa6865 😂

This video has transformed my thinking.

Hi Historian's Craft, I have a question with regards to your earlier video on the Macedonian sarissa. I have a bunch of wacky ideas on how to counter the phalanx, and I wonder if anybody had actually tried them in history. -Trapping the heads of the sarissas/spears, by holding a bucket with very thick armour plating at the bottom (to prevent penetration), or a thick block of wood with a deep hollow in it, and using it to trap the head of the sarissa. I envision a front row of men holding a very long wooden plank with many of these bucket-like thingys set in intervals in it, and using them to trap the heads of the sarissas/spears. -Throwing a thick reinforced and weighted net or very thick wad of cloth to entangle and trap the spear heads. -Somehow finding a way to grab hold of the sarissa/spear shaft and chopping them up with an axe. Maybe by getting axemen to stand a bit back behind the front ranks, and immediately after the sarissa contacts they grab the sarissa and chop off their heads. -Putting thick wooden barricades in front of the front ranks to shield from the spears. -Rolling heavy logs towards the phalanx to disrupt their formation. -Getting the first rank of men to hold logs over their heads, and at the very last moment before contact throw the logs downwards and perpendicularly onto the spear shafts so they angle towards the ground instead. -Getting trained dogs to rush under the spears and nip at their feet to disrupt the formation. -Getting men or boys to crawl under the front forward-facing sarissas and cut off the legs of the first ranks of the phalanx with long scythes. -Getting men to kneel beneath the spears and shoot arrows or sling stones at them. -Getting the whole formation to crouch or lie down at the very last moment so the sarissas pass over their heads, then they can either grab the sarissas or move forward to attack the phalangites. -Getting men to run along the sides of the phalanx spears and chop their spears, or simply just attacking the phalanx from the sides. (Maybe the phalanx had hypaspists standing at their sides to prevent this?)

From one of your maps, I had to look up if Barcelona was ever the capital of one of the divisions of the Roman empire, and it turns out it was, but for only about 1 year.

Interesting points. I still can't see the barbarian kingdoms as a part of the Roman empire since they clearly limited the power of the imperial realm. Imagine how previous emperors would have dealt with these kingdoms. I can't imagine Aurelian, Trajan, Augustus, etc addressing any of these barbarian states any differently than Justinian. Also, Justinian's birthplace isn't relevant as long as he was born a roman citizen, unlike barbarians who rejected roman citizenship so they could keep their kingdoms intact. There are reasons why Romans strictly prevented barbarians from becoming emperors or possessing imperial powers. It would have created even more political instability. I agree that many Romans in the west didn't think Rome had fallen or at least it would be reunited but it clearly was not the Rome of Trajan or even Majorian anymore. All great things must come to an end.

@ScapularSaves

Жыл бұрын

Yes, this is correct. Eventually later on the Venetians would pop up as a hold out successor state of Rome coming out of the Exarchate of Ravenna. And the Pontifical State would also pop up with Justinian's sanction. The biggest shift (IMO) was most of the Senate was encouraged to move out of Rome to Constantinople, which started to happen since the time of Justinian. Also many riches of Rome were also moved to Constantinople during this time. Rome survived but barely...

So would that make Zosimus a political prophet, to use the term? Sometimes there are people that exist during a time frame that just seemed to be dialed into what's happening to their culture.

Excellent, really, except for the misleading maps. A quibble, sorry. Many thanks

"Make Rome Great Again!" - Justinian, probably

My take, "Rome" fell when the capital was moved to Mediolanium in 286AD. The Empire lasted after that

@generalaigullletes5830

Жыл бұрын

I think you meant Milan, right? (AKA Mediolanium)

@jbussa

Жыл бұрын

@@generalaigullletes5830 oops you are correct. thank you

@VOTE_REFORM_UK

Жыл бұрын

That is an interesting take indeed. There is some validity behind this.

Gidday mate. Have you done anything on Magnus Maximus and how after his fall the Irish/Scotti moved into Wales? Cheers love your work

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Hi! I have not yet, but it is on the to-do list!

@waynemcauliffe2362

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFallofRome Ta

Ever since I learned the nitty gritty details of the wars of Justinian,they always felt more like a Roman civil war to me.

Look at me. I am the *Roman* now

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much lmao

I always thought it was 476 in the west and 1453 in the east.

Excellent and highly apropos question

One question is what about the tax system in "the west" before Justinian? Since we could argue that would be an important part of the state that could lend info into understanding what the west was in the in between period.

Rome stands, Cartage and Ctesphion crumble

The Roman Empire may have fell, but Rome has never fallen.

I consider the date of the fall of Rome to be 1453. No state that has direct political connection to ancient Rome exists after that date.

I suppose it depended where one lived on the Italian peninsula when you became aware that Rome was falling!

@TheFallofRome

Жыл бұрын

This is actually a fairly astute point. “Fall” very much depends when and where you look

Its still alive. Just it doesnt carry swords anymore it carries bibles and accepts donations instead of tribute.

Wow, very good lesson here.

8:00 Restore order would be a phrasing.

I guessed from the title that Justinian had something to do with it.

Yes but 476AD resulted in a distinct disappearance of the Western Throne from the power system. The empire was gone. Constantinople called all of the shots.

Rather than considering religious or political change in the empire as a whole, at least the signs for the decline of Rome as a city in the center of the empire can be identified more precisely: The last use of the Colosseum for games was in 523, which marked the symbolic end of public activity in Rome; and the piercing of the aqueducts during the Gothic wars by Vitiges in 537 marked the end of the infrastructure that made it possible for large populations to live there. The coming of the Justinian plague in 541 finished off whoever remained.

Really good topic. Fifty volcanoes erupting right now.

Great points and a lot to agree with. I suspect someone could give a rebuttal video along the lines of Italian tax revenue not flowing into Constantinople and something about Boethius‘ treatment. I think a good debate could be had and won if someone could compile all available evidence of how the Italians felt about their status as Roman’s. Never the less, great to contemplate especially that the Italians often praised the goths and the eastern emperor still adorned their coinage.

@canadious6933

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, honestly it is kind of funny in the end Constantinople disappeared and Rome never did. I remember seeing some texts that Italians in the high middle ages still remembered their ancestors and wanted a united Italia again. Which they finally did and reclaimed Rome as their capital. But the idea of "Roman" was replaced with just "Italian" from the middle ages to now. But in essence, mean the same thing I guess. I would have to ask italians

@ivanf.482

Жыл бұрын

As an Italian, our national identity, born in the middle ages, was born basically in relation to Rome ITSELF From the contrast between an Italy seat of Roman power, to a divided Italy Fun fact : the term "italiano" has the -ano suffix like "romanus". This was born from the way we feel our connection between us and our roman fathers Our poetry and literature is FULL of very strong cultural heritage and connection with Rome

@mycaleb8

Жыл бұрын

@@canadious6933 Constantinople never disappeared though.

@FlvAet421

Жыл бұрын

@@canadious6933 It makes me wonder has anyone ever made a video or done a study on who feels more "Roman" today: the modern day Italians or the modern day Greeks? I think there is even a Syrian minority that identifies as Roman. Well, one thing we can say is that modern day Germans don't identify as Roman, kind of proving the point that the Holy Roman Empire was indeed an imposter.

@FlvAet421

Жыл бұрын

@@ivanf.482 I think that's pretty cool.

What do you think of dividing Roman History into the following periods: Republic: 509BC-88BC Dictatorship: 88BC-628AD 628AD-1453AD The Second Monarchy

@jackcrasher6945

Жыл бұрын

I would date the foundation of the city to around 600 BC instead of 753 BC, probably under Etruscan rule. The beginning of the Republic would be sometime after the Battle of Cyme (474 BC), when the Etruscans were defeated the by the Greeks and the Roman nobility broke away from the Etruscan League a short time later. I would classify the Middle Republic and the Late Republic as usual. I would continue to classify the period from the Middle Republic (i.e. from the Lex Hortensia or the first Punic War) to the division of Rome in 395 as usual.

@Moepowerplant

Жыл бұрын

At least going by the mosaics, the empire that lasted till 1453 looked very much like Diocletian's dominate, and they did rule as absolute monarchs, so I'd probably rather think of it as the Greek Dominate rather than "Byzantine Empire."

That feeling when you watch a video and want to like it, but find out it's already liked.

My brother, I can tell you're actively trying to deepen your voice. Just relax and do your normal cadence, it'll sound less forced. Good content though

Extremely interesting video. I like your point about the 476 fall of Rome being Roman propaganda. It makes me wonder how much of our other established history is propaganda.

@seandelfin

Жыл бұрын

most of it.

@653j521

Жыл бұрын

@@seandelfin Some of it.