It’s funny the different perspectives people have about the same games. I’ve just finished Celeste and found the story to be trite and heavy handed, but conversely LOVED Hollow Knight’s story

@Akab

11 ай бұрын

I do think that's really cool and it shows that there might be a game for everyone not as in "a single game everyone loves" but as "there is a game you love and can relate to somewhere", which is so much better! 😁 Those games don't try to serve the biggest possible audience out of all the people out there, but instead, they are made for specific groups of people, which allows them so much more freedom than the bigger game industry 😊

In my opinion the “magic” is the devs’ passion, expertise, and connection with the player coming through in the game. And IMO that’s really just all of the pieces put together: the story, graphics, gameplay, etc. You can’t play any of these 3 games without feeling just how much the people that made it cared about it and how much effort and thought they put into conveying their ideas to you, the player. That’s the magic.

I don't consider myself a gamer. I haven't played anything before Celeste. But even though the game was hard and I didn't gave much experience, I did finish the main story. I didn't gave up. Im someone who gives up on stuff constantly and it was nice doing something to the end of it, no matter how hard

Marketing, every game dev’s worst fear

Id argue an indie game needs 1 of 3 things to be very successful. Unique art style, unique game mechanics, or catering to an underutilized audience. The through-line of these 3 is that the indie game is providing something that AAA games won't which causes players to pick this indie title over AAA games. Hollowknight had a unique artstyle, Stardew Valley revived a dead genre, minecraft had a unique art style, invented a genre, and had unique gameplay, Undertale has unique game mechancics. I dont really know what made Celeste so successful to be honest, I never played it. I would expect Celeste to fail because almost all platformers besides Mario do but they must be offering something that AAA wasn't.

@oofink467

11 ай бұрын

The reason why celeste succeeded was because of a combination of the gameplay being refined to a point that you can always beat whatever the game throws at you with the skill level you are at, and the story just being kind of relatable and justifies the difficulty climb in a unique way. Celeste basically offers a very refined gameplay that weaves itself into the story and that is why its successful. Other indie games that are successful that don't have anything technically unique about them is like Geometry dash, or The Binding of Isaac. With Geometry dash being popular due to a combination of its reputation of being a “rage game” and a genuinely amazing level editor that allowed it’s community to continue growing even after 6 years with no updates (2.2 is coming October though les go). And the binding of Isaac was successful due to it just having tons and tons of content combined with a really well polished yet Addicting gameplay loop that makes you want to just do another run. I think as long as you have one of 5 traits present in your indie game, it will be likely to be successful, The 5 traits being, Community, Content, Replay-ability, Uniqueness, and Polish.

@jyke321

9 ай бұрын

As much as I love mario, Celesete is a very unique platformer. It's also a more challenging platformer without all the gimmicks that mario games throw at you to artificially increase the difficulty. Precision matters, and time is just important, so as you improve your skills, you are able to climb further with helps you relate to madeline's struggles. It also has a story with mario games don't really have much of, so if you can vibe with the story, that only adds to the experience. Definitely not for everyone, but if you enjoy platformers, and want something more challenging, Celeste is great to play from just a gameplay standpoint as well.

Great video Brandon! Really find it interesting on what you said about game hooks. Like many others, I've always thought that in the current state of game dev, you need some kind of "hook" or just something unique to make your game stand out. But when you put it like this, it is quite interesting to see how many of the most popular indie games really don't have any crazy "hooks", but rather are just super good at what they want to do.

@sasquatchbgames

11 ай бұрын

Thanks! Very few of the games I love use 'hooks' in the traditional sense but rather were pure passion projects for the dev(s). I feel like that really translates to a great game in a lot of cases.

@JSLegendDev

11 ай бұрын

I think you still need a hook but it doesn't have to be a gameplay hook. So a unique story, visual style, etc... can count as a hook just not a gameplay one.

I think the "magic" is that the games are *good*. That's really it. I know that isn't super informative... but the reality is that all the marketing in the world isn't going to make your game a cult classic with over a million purchases. At the end of the day, it's about the game being so good that you want to tell other people to play it. I learned about Stardew Valley, not from some KZread video or some streamer playing a beta... I learned about it through word of mouth. Just literally everyone I knew was talking about it and talking about how they lost track of time and played if for like 30 hours straight. If you ask someone about a game and their response is "JUST PLAY IT", or funnily, "DON'T PLAY IT" (because it's so addictive) then that's the magic. If you ask someone about a game and their response is "well, it's okay but..." or their response is "it's kinda fun..." then it just isn't good enough.

This whole thing that marketing is important made me think of the game 'fear and hunger'. It's made by like one guy and it was invisible for years until a youtuber made a video about it and others started streaming it, which brought it more into the light and gave it the small cult following it now has. 'fear and hunger' is a survival horror game disguised as an rpg. The whole appeal of the game is that it is extremely punishing and gives you no information. With no information you will definitely die, but with each death you gain more information and if you have all the information it can becomes a cake walk. Since it is so punishing the euphoria when you figure something out and overcome the obstacle is even greater. But since it gives you no information some information can only be figured out by finding it on the wiki.

I think the most important thing as a dev is to build games you yourself would want to play and to relate to your audience. (which all of those games do, the devs love the genres ofnganes they are making and it shows) Like, how do you expect success when you don't even enjoy playing your own games? This seems obvious, but a lot of my friends at my local gamedev group never really play their own games, so there might be some merit to it...

I just wanted to tell you that I really love your channel, Brandon, and as a developer, I feel very connected with you. Currently, I've been working on a Metroidvania game for 2 and a half years, just like you guys, and as you say, I keep myself locked in my room coding in secret, which is truly what I love. I feel that for a developer/programmer, it's very challenging to focus on marketing when we already have so much on our plate and want to devote all our attention to game development for at least 10 or 12 hours a day. That's why I find all your videos and interviews very motivating and refreshing. Thank you for the effort and care that you and Nikki put into this channel, even though you probably also wish to dedicate more time to the development of Veil of Maya. I respect, support, and love what you do.

Something has to win. There may not be any secret reason.

5:50 Rim World, Vampire Survivors, Cruelty Squad, Iron Lung, Prison Architect, The Rake... etc. There's a ton of "ugly" games that found success.

bro thank you for not using the unity situation to spread fear

@tornadre

11 ай бұрын

I’m with you. I’m so sick of others trying to milk the situation to boost their videos.

The thing that made these games stand out WAS their quality. I didn't buy any of them because of some planned marketing scheme, it was word of mouth. And I only spread that word of mouth when I saw visually and mechanically how rich those games are. Planned Marketing is most effective when it doesn't look like the company selling the project are even the ones marketing it. BUT in the case of these games the developers are all extremely communicative, thats a form of marketing but not how any AAA companies do it.

There’s a famous industrial designer named Raymond Loewy whose philosophy was Most Advanced Yet Acceptable. Meaning he would push things but still relate them to things people were accustomed to. Also, the most popular new songs are more similar to other popular songs than different. So, making things people already are accustomed to has the best percentage chance of succeeding.

I think you’re missing a big factor- these games came out when “indie games” first struck it big with a global audience. If any of these games came out today, they would be completely lost in a sea of other indie titles. In my opinion, those days are over of an indie dev creating a break away title that earns them millions.

I've come to suspect that for a game to work as indie it needs to have a look that says "indie," however you pull that off -- otherwise, particularly if it looks generally realistic, it will be compared to AAA and seen as a failure at hyper realism. Then, I don't usually think of games as experiences so much as activities -- regardless of if the game is chess, Uno, Pac-Man, Doom, Minecraft, or The Sims, I think of games more as something to do rather than an experience to have.

The magic 🪄 of those games are that they have a central theme that everything is connected to Hollow knight - exploration Celeste - Overcome Stardew Valley- Tiny Town life Everything grows from these statements and re-enforce them, thereby creating a connected experience. If we look at hollow knight: - game start: tutorial in boring place, reward for completion; tiny cute town 🏠 - game loop: explore-> find boss -> defeat boss -> new area/new exploration method -> repeat The gameplay supplement this by being action focused, so while you passively explore, you actively defend yourself. The combat and exploration create a rythm that prevents the exploration in the game from becoming stale. The combat also tells stories about what inhabitants live in each area.

INDIE GAME is not about how many copies are you selled, is about art your inner live your expressión of creativite is absolute art. An indie artist don't pursue excellence his live, excellence his an style of live accord their own parameters. World doesn't impose nothing to you. You are your world and you share with other people.

Bingo. This is my new favourite "gamedev tips" video. Marketing + making something good is the holy grail.

I didn't play the others, but Stardew Valley was extremely high quality. It played much better than Harvest Moon itself. Marketing a game like that is probably easier than a half baked one. Marketing may have been more important to Hollow Knight's succes, as it's reviews are a little less convincing and the genre is quite saturated

@jyke321

9 ай бұрын

The genre is saturated right now, for sure, but hollow knight came out during a period of less metroid vanias. As far as metroid and catlevania themselves, hadn't had a new release since 2016 and 2014 respectively (hollow night released in 2017), but their last mainline series hadn't released since 2010 and 2009. The genre was only being kept alive by other companies looking to make a metroidvania, so when team cherry was able to get enough support to start developing hollow knight they were able to gain hype for a newer metroidvania. So, yeah marketing played a big roll, but I feel as though, word of mouth took over after the game released.

Wrong. All 3 of these games had a hook: - the first MASTERPIECE on their respective platforms. Stardew Valley: first masterpiece HarvestMoon-game on Steam Hollow Knight: first masterpiece Metroidvania-game on Steam Celeste: masterpiece 2d Platformer traversal-centric game on Steam (but non "betheguy-type", which is just an annoying subgenre of traversal) wherein Masterpiece == 10x++ the quality of its nearest direct competitor. Aiming for absolute quality IS a hook. Example: most burgers are very generic... but if you get a 10x burger, you remember that sh*t.

@themore-you-know

11 ай бұрын

and the data is very easy to quantify and analyze: - had there been 10 other games with the quality of Hollow Knight on the market... you wouldn't even remember Hollow Knight. Hence the KPI is the quantification of the competitors with high proximity of assets quality and volume to your project.

@themore-you-know

11 ай бұрын

Longing is only a consequence of the above. As you don't long to be in the 10th universe of an over-saturated market.

Thank you buddy😊

There are so many videos talking about how you need a unique hook, unique story, etc. I love playing games with original creative ideas and gameplay. But I also love playing games that have all the elements I've played and liked before. People still play golf, even though there's no ground-breaking new mechanics. The only game on your list I've played is Stardew Valley. I'm actually not a big fan of pixel art (*gasp*) but I liked the crafting and building aspects. The same goes for Rimworld, which I play despite the simple graphics, not because of them. Often I just want more of the things I like in a game and less of the things I don't like, and it's as simple as that. I think as a developer it's just as important to think about what you like and dislike about other games as it is to come up with a great hook. It all boils down to: You need to make a game you like, then find all the other people that like the same thing.

wheres undertale broo, its my favourite game 😭The soundtrack in that game is like 50% of what makes that game FEEL SO GOOD TO PLAY. Never underestimate the feels-good soundtracks and sound design brings. Video games are art!

1. I think you're misunderstanding what made HK and those other games ( I haven't played those games, so i'll just speak for HK) successfull. While HK isn't fundamentaly more different than the first metroidvania, the sheer amount of mechanics that weren't found in the first metroidvania (whatever that was, i forget) and how those mechanics blend together to create this fully unique whole- THAT right there that perfectly designed platformer combat that simply isn't found anyhere else- THAT's what made HK super successful- not whatever PR campaign they pushed. It's a fundamentally good game that folks played til its end and played some more, and there were genuine reasons as to why it was good to begin with. I haven't seen a single well-put and unique game fail, but I've seen many horrible games succeed so there's my 2 cents there.

I don't think Undertale's visuals are ugly, but rather inconsistent. It sets the mood very nicely, but looking at a screenshot without knowing anything about the game will probably make people avoid it tbh

@Rangeon

11 ай бұрын

The creator said they were ugly and they were so intentionally in some places.

@StoryNerdStudios

11 ай бұрын

@@Rangeon Guess I just have bad taste then lmao

@Rangeon

11 ай бұрын

@@StoryNerdStudios nah, you're cool! I like undertale as well, not for the graphics though

I would argue stardew valley was unique in the PC space at the time. there was no good harvest moon type game to play on PC before stardew without emulation before then that I remember.

I love your channel, keep it up guys and gl! I feel like what people are failing to accept is that most of their favorite indie games such are those few mentioned in video, are not great because they are a coding masterpieces. They are great because all of their ingredients create an immersive world that draws you back in it for more... In my opinion people focus too much on coding aspect when starting their game dev, but visuals and music/sound are what sells games. And this is an opinion of a 8y backend developer

Really good insight here :)

TLDR: Why these games are successful? They are good and have good marketing. What a revelation 😂

Danke!

@sasquatchbgames

9 ай бұрын

Thanks for the support!

They’re cool to like, are able to have their problems dismissed online because they’re not from a recognized company, and really simple to get into.

Don't forget that you also love Unity Engine

Yeah I agree with below comments, it seems so loved yet I can't create any measure of hype to pick up either Ori or Hollow Knight. While both are beautiful (especially Ori) they feel very flat in terms of Story/Engagement (for me!).

My favorite game is hl2, I wouldn't like to live in that world though.

@What-a-save

6 ай бұрын

What is that hl2 I read it Hollow Knight 2😂

i really hate hollow knight when i was close to end the game, my ps plus subscription just ended:(

None of these games make me want to play them. Only stardew valley perhaps but I bet it would bore me in a few hours.

lmao no talking about unity thing going on????

@rodrigopetunio

11 ай бұрын

And add what to the discussion? The topic is so damn played out I doubt there's anything else to add here.

Hey, Undertale's not ugly

@ungatoaucitron

10 ай бұрын

yes it is, but i still think it’s a great game

@nsgames24

10 ай бұрын

@@ungatoaucitron 😠

First

minecraft is not ugly:/