Support the channel at patreon.com/resurrected - also apparently I am dead wrong at 5:20 - Scott's guide to Enterprise is a guid to the original not that A - wild!

@defies4626

Ай бұрын

You're not entirely wrong, as the last section did cover the -A and the changes between her and the original (including the new drive, the new baby LCARS, and the other minor modifications)

@calanon534

Ай бұрын

"Fore" not "For" in "Fore and Aft." 0:55 - The heck are you on? Look at the real designs put out for the movies and show. There's a pair of torpedo launchers back there, that's not a nacelle.

@luminaire4946

Ай бұрын

The enterprise jumping to warp 9 in the enterprise incident is easily explained. in season 2 the enterprise got an upgrade by the kelvins in the episode by any other name. they could reach a cruising speed of warp 11. Its likely that they kept those enhancements and while maybe the couldn't fully utilize them or maintain them without the kelvins it's possible they learned enough to increase their own warp speed limits. this might have been incorporated into the refit model once the tech had been reverse engineered.

@resurrectedstarships

Ай бұрын

OH BTW someone needs to go touch some grass - spammed disrespectful comments will be deleted - I've corrected myself - go vent your bad day somewhere else.

@luminaire4946

Ай бұрын

Also interestingly if you read Scott’s guide they touch on TWD. The ships are not technically any faster. They are just traveling through interspace like they did in the tholian web.

I always assumed that Excelsior’s transwarp just became the standard warp by the 24th century, hence the alteration to the warp scale in TNG and it was still called warp for ease/tradition. As for Borg/Voth/Warp 10 transwarp… maybe that’s just a term used for a different warp mechanism to differentiate it from what Starfleet calls warp. Or some quantum got into the universal translator or something.

@lynngreen7978

Ай бұрын

The flaw with that is the aliens who didn't invent Transwarp.

@k1productions87

Ай бұрын

@@lynngreen7978 They simply didn't call it that. The TRUE fault is Voyager constantly changing the definitions of things out of sheer laziness.

@casbot71

Ай бұрын

The Kelvin universe could even fit in with that, with the Vengeance having this version of Transwarp because Khan invented it _several decades earlier_ than in the Prime Timeline. The Dreadnought class could move a lot faster at warp and could fire at the Enterprise while in warp, which seems similar to what Excelsior was expected to do - if it hadn't been sabotaged.

@k1productions87

Ай бұрын

@@casbot71 This is one reason why I say Into Darkness bears closer similarity to Search for Spock than Wrath of Khan, lol.

@Zeithri

Ай бұрын

@@casbot71 There's a wonderful What if-video that has that very scene play out with Connie-Refit and Excelsior. That being said ,the KT ships most likely already possess transwarp drive due to their sheer size and speed.

Excelsior was referred to in some technical manual type books, at the time, as a "Star Dreadnaught". I miss that. She really does look like a tough battleship to me.

@sw-gs

Ай бұрын

Bigger, Tougher, Faster

@barrybend7189

Ай бұрын

Dreadnought was simply just a better battleship. So both fit.

@martinjrgensen8234

Ай бұрын

There is a piece of lore in the Star Trek ttrpg book, where a Romulan remarks on the Excelsior, and the gist of it is “daaamn that is huuuge we are fucked”. It really was a monstrosity powerful ship class

@logicplague2077

Ай бұрын

@@barrybend7189 Yeah and no, the Dreadnought was all big-guns, vs previous battleships having guns that varied in caliber. It was also quite fast relative to other ships of the time, it basically rendered every other class obsolete. Drachinifel has a video on it, but afterwards all battleships basically followed the Dreadnought's philosophy and design.

@canisblack

Ай бұрын

Even more so with the Enterprise B/Dominion War refit.

As a young trekkie in the 80s with no ability to look up info on the internet, my head-canon theory was that "transwarp" meant that it could more or less immediately reach a target warp factor. The original Enterprise is always shown accelerating through warp factors with Sulu calling out each number as they reach it. On the Enterprise D, the captain orders a specific warp factor, says engage, and they go. No one was ever calling out warp numbers unless they were running some kind of special experiment. So I always thought that the Excelsior was probably the first ship that could do what the Enterprise D was doing. If the captain calls out warp 5, the ship just goes straight to warp 5. I think the shows ended up using "transwarp" for too many different things to really say what it "really" means. But I still prefer the explanation I came up with as an 8-year-old.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

'Still a better Transwarp theory than Voyager's.' 😅

@motorhead281

Ай бұрын

That makes alot of sense! Could also explain why Excelsiors 1st officer says to the captain "all speeds available through transwarp, captain." when they chase the Enterprise out of spacedock.

@HeimburgerMusic

Ай бұрын

@@motorhead281 yeah, that’s what I thought.

@stonent

9 күн бұрын

@@motorhead281 That makes sense with the tries to get out of here using warp, they will be in for a surprise (or however it was phrased). Just like a naval ship if you set the throttle to flank, it may take several minutes to get to that speed. The trans warp idea implies like 2 cars with a top speed of 100. Except one has a 4 cylinder and one has a V8. So both ships maybe had a top speed of Warp 9, but the excelsior would be waiting at the finish line while the enterprise was still accelerating.

4:35 Fastest SAFE cruising speed is not the same as FULL COMBAT SPEED. The Enterprise reaching Warp 9 is not necessarily a writing mistake but simply the ship going as fast as possible with a maintenance cycle required afterward. TNG scale: 3.33... = 10/3 My headcanon for Threshold is that Paris/Janeway turned into newts... because they were in all points in space at the same time and got contaminated by ALL of life, essentially turning them into a sort of proto-Progenitors (TNG The Chase, DSC S5)

@mrsamaritan6881

Ай бұрын

This

@Furzkampfbomber

Ай бұрын

That is quite a good explanation. You've actually managed to make this episode look less silly at least for me. So far, this was one of the view Voyager episodes I really did not like, because I thought this newt transformation (also a new english word this german just learned) was really, really stupid. With your explanation, which is actually quite cool, this now makes sense to me, so thanks!

@keirfarnum6811

Ай бұрын

What was most egregious about that episode wasn’t that they were turned into giant salamanders; it was that they were so easily turned back into human.

@MegaZeta

Ай бұрын

Neither of those concepts really exist in Star Trek as a TV drama beyond contradictory episode-to-episode conveniences, much less concepts as defined/distinct from each other. And that's wise, as those specifics aren't important to the goals of the shows and movies. It's not tremendously important at what speed combat can occur, as almost nothing about space combat in Star Trek is realistic, with the ships engaging as combo battleships/fighter jets at extremely close range.

@rbleisem

Ай бұрын

As for VOY it's warp 10 episode, I consider it a security training holo-program. One that failed, because it's weirdness factor, was just too weird, even for Starfleet. Makes me wonder if the date was april 1st, you know, in the show, because that looks like a massive prank (by Tom Paris). So no, I consider that episode to not actually exist or the Voyager actually being a Nebula Engineering's hull (same general size) and the Voyager we all know & love, is actually the Doctor (EMH) his holo-roman. The other option, is Q messing with them, for some reason, since warp 13 is possible, as proven by the Ent-D Dreadnought in "ALL Good Things". The TNG warp scale can actually be drawn to warp 15, which would then be infinite speed, you have to increase the power, per curve, massively. Warp 10 should thus not have had that effect, at all, meaning, something else is going on. So, can somebody do the Voy intro with a Nebula Engineering's hull, that has four Sovereign nacells in a two per pylon in a back to back, engine pod configuration and a layer of ablative panels to bring the hull look up to VOY & DS9 hull look standaards of the modern starfleet starships? I always hate the; "not yet installed" or "loaded on board" crap, they could have made it, on the saucer, back at DS9, with 3/4th of the crew. And it would also explain the roomier engineering's deck, by supporting TWO warpcores, but losing one in the opening episodes, thus reducing her max speed & power, in terms of stamina. Hostiles forcing them to go for defense, instead of speed. Then they could have had a Voyager Nebula Dreadnought, with saucer (recovered from the Borg, thus solving where Geordi Laforge his mom ended up) and the Endgame upgrades, as well, get home, in a ultimate form. Also less drama for the first few years in the Delta Quadrant, by hunting down that TNG wormhole to the Delta Quadrant, thus lots of diverting from the straight course. Same with Yesterday's Enterprise, the Ent-D should have gone from a Galaxy, to a Nebula. That way they really could have shown the differences in the timeline.

0:44 Which is funny because Sulu would later be the Captain of Excelsior.

@TheRealOtakuJoe

Ай бұрын

What's interesting is that in restored audio of a cut scene in TWOK, Admiral Kirk mentions Sulu's upcoming promotion to Captain of the USS Excelsior. Which makes the line of "glad to have him at the helm for 3 weeks" make a bit more sense. Though I'm at a loss of why Starfleet felt Sulu, who hadn't been a first officer, was deserving of a command. But I may have answered my own question, when you have the great Admiral Kirk's recommendation.

@michaelkemmet834

Ай бұрын

​@@TheRealOtakuJoe The novelization of TWOK makes it more clear that the reassembly of the command crew(minus Chekov) was something of a birthday present to Kirk. I don't think it was said flat out(and it's been maybe two decades since I last read it), but there was a strong implication that Sulu had been somewhere else for awhile. Probably as the first officer of a different starship after Enterprise became a training ship attached to Starfleet Academy. Even if that didn't happen, Sulu almost certainly would have been Spock's first officer after he took command of Enterprise after Kirk's return to Starfleet Command. And the novelization of ST:3 includes a scene with Fleet Admiral Morrow telling Sulu his promotion was on hold and command of Excelsior was being given to Styles because of Sulu's connection to the Genesis Incident.

@j.rileyindependentproductions

Ай бұрын

@@TheRealOtakuJoe Technically, considering Picard specifically references in BoBW that he recruited a "young Lt." to be his first officer, and it is implied that Riker was not the first officer of the ship he was previously assigned to (so, maybe the third officer?)... Yet he turned down his own command to become the Enterprise's first officer. This would suggest that one technically does not need to have been a first officer to be promoted to Captain.

@Tuning3434

Ай бұрын

@@j.rileyindependentproductions There is a difference between actual military rank and function (especially when you start comparing NCO's with CO's duties, responsibilities and abilities). The first officer / XO is a function, not a rank. For instance in USN (although most navies) the commanding officier of an attack submarine is usually an Commander, and his XO a Lieutenant. When you attain the rank Captain, you usually function as the Commodore for a squadron of attack submarines. In the TMP era, many of the senior staff appear to have been promoted to ranks considerably above their functions: Sulu, Uhura both where serving as Lt. Commanders, Chekov as Lt, Scotty as Commander. During the events of ST2, Sulu, Uhura and Chekov have been promoted to the rank of Commander, Scotty was promoted Captain during ST3 and basically ran the Excelsior warp engine project, which while stationed ON the Excelsior, was essentially a fleet wide technology program. Ranks is as much as a seniority level as a skill level. During the events of ST6, the Enterprise had 3 captains on board: Scotty, Spock and Kirk, which really says more about the special status the Enterprise achieved that such a senior staff was allowed to run it.

Many many years ago, I had the pleasure of attending a Trek convention that featured a Q&A with Mr. John Eaves himself. I can't the exact wording, but at one point somebody asked him about his process when creating the first conceptual sketches and study model of the Excelsior that would go on to be used by ILM when they created the filming model for Star Trek III. Remember that Eaves was doing this in the early 80's, and he was trying to find and incorporate design elements that really felt like what the future might look like. As a designer, he'd noticed the influx of high quality new electronic devices from Japan and how they differed from the American designs in a myriad of ways, both great and small. So, he decided to try and see what the Enterprise might've looked like if it had been built by the Japanese, and he tried applying different aesthetics as well as picturing how the application of their different approach to the philosophy of design might show up visually in the finished product. When he was done trying a variety of ideas across a several iterations, eventually what resulted from that process was the basic design of the Excelsior we ended up getting.

@EVAUnit4A

Ай бұрын

Uhh... the _Excelsior_ was designed-and-built by Nilo Rodis and Bill George.

@tommytwotacos8106

Ай бұрын

@@EVAUnit4A i deleted my original reply because after i reread it, I realized I sounded like an absolute dick. Yes, the ILM guys designed and built the model for the film. Eaves and Okuda did modifications and additions, as well as other work in tech manuals. But the original conceptualization was done by Eaves, at least as best as 13 year old me at the convention listening to him tell the story understood it. He made a study model, sketches, and some notes that went to ILM.

@tommytwotacos8106

Ай бұрын

@@EVAUnit4A i also want to apologize for the tone of my original reply. I pressed post and looked at the Asuka doll on top of my monitor and I could in her eyes it was like she was judging for being such a prick. You and I are old school mecha dudes. You're an Evangelion-friend and I'm a Patlabor-friend. If there's anyone to whom I should show some respect and be as courteous towards as possible, it's a man like you with whom I share TWO of my most favorite fandoms on Earth: Mecha and Trek.

@EVAUnit4A

Ай бұрын

@@tommytwotacos8106 🖖

@EVAUnit4A

Ай бұрын

@@tommytwotacos8106 Ah-ha-! I found the source of the disconnect. So, we're both right on this one. forgottentrek.com/feature-films/designing-the-excelsior/ So, John Eaves was indeed involved in working on the _Exclesior. However,_ it was in specific regards to the modifications for the _Enterprise-B_ for _Star Trek Generations, but not_ the original creation of the _Excelsior_ for _ST III._ This does fit with the fact he rose to prominence during the Berman Era, so it would make sense that he'd have a hand in TNG-era content _like_ the modification to the _Enterprise-B._ Then this would set him up nicely to outright create the _Enterprise-E_ for _Star Trek First Contact._

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise has an appendix about the Enterprise-A, but other than the appendix, the book is about the Constitution-class refit that we see on screen in the first three Star Trek movies. This is clearly and painstakingly explained on the first few pages of the book.

Don't forget the use of 'Warp 13' by both the upgraded Enterprise-D and Pasteur in the TNG finale, "All Good Things". Maybe that extra nacelle really did the trick! :-)

@kevin9218

Ай бұрын

Not to mention the fact that, if you follow the old light speed cubed progression of the supposed original warp factor chart, there's no way the enterprise could have reached the outer edge of the galaxy in "where no man has gone before" nor could it have reached the center of the galaxy in Star Trek V by going less than warp 10. But then again, if they could go fast enough to reach those destinations over the course of a single episode or movie, the bajoran wormhole would be useless and why the heck is Voyager taking 70+ years to get back to earth? I find it best to just ignore the definitions of warp factors, the writers certainly did.

@DomH75

Ай бұрын

@@kevin9218 Also, when the Enterprise limped to Delta Vega at presumably sublight speed, several years could have passed outside, so that might explain the design overhaul of the Enterprise and new uniforms in the TV show: they'd returned from the edge of the galaxy years later. Of course TV show 'canon' since then has ignored that, although It actually explains that the flashback events in the Cage might have been subjectively more recent to Kirk and Spock and why they were on 'Pike's Enterprise' in old-fashioned uniforms.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

3 nacelles dont work. only PAIRS . except in "single" Nacelle w/ Double pair of Warp Coils .

@jetnova16

Ай бұрын

The TNG Warp scale is a different modified scale of the TOS scale, the higher warp scales in TOS are in fact the highest in the TNG modified scale. That same scale was modified again in the future changing the scale to have Warp 13 in “All Good Things”. Dialogue has stated this major fact.

@meiketorkelson4437

Ай бұрын

How did they manage this without evolving into amphibians? 😂

So, my understanding of the USS Excelsior is this. First, Sulu liked the Excelsior because it was to be his ship. In Star Trek II, there is missing dialogue that after he returns from the training voyage of the Enterprise, he was to take command of the Great Experiment. But that is on the cutting room floor. In the novelization of ST3, Admiral Morrow temporarily relived Sulu of the command of Excelsior and gave it to Captain Styles. He assured him that once the shake down cruise was complete, Sulu was to take command. Sulu disagreed with Admiral Morrow saying that once Styles completes the shake down cruise, he is not going to give the Excelsior up. Second, in the history of the Transwarp Drive, it was to be like the transwarp conduits mentioned in TNG. After the Excelsior was towed back to Spacedock 1 and repaired, the Excelsior did attempt to perform the Transwarp maneuvers. It failed in that aspect but in all other aspects, the design was most superior vessel Starfleet had. Once it was retrofitted with the most advanced warp drive available, it was put into service and Sulu took command after years of not seeing him in the center seat. Another comment, the Guide to the Enterprise did cover NCC-1701 and NCC-1701-A. Enterprise A did have notable design improvements as it was a newer Constitution class vessel. I do agree that the writers were lazy in trying to explain what Transwarp was. I think that Star Trek was never meant to be taken seriously and so many plot holes are just riddled all through the original series. Here is one plot hole no one talks about, Saavik was pregnant with Spock's child! Remember the Pon Far, the mating ritual? Well, Spock mated with Saavik when his body was regenerated and he had no control over his impulses. She never could look him in the eye (basically, Saavik was like a daughter to Spock) and then she took leave. In ST4, when Saavik left, she stood next to Amanda. Why she do that? Because Amanda and Sarek would take care of Spock's mate and child. Also, a secret that the family would not want public. Perhaps in ST6, it was supposed to be Saavik and not Valeris that betrayed Starfleet. That would have been a more profound scene. Oh well, we will never get that story, as well as the Tomed Incident as well. We can only appreciate ST for its face value, not depth. Anyways, great video, thanks for posting.

The Excelsior is a beaut for sure! Interesting video, but a few points. 1. Mr. Scott's Guide is not about the A, but the refit Enterprise. We see some shots of the A's bridge at the end of the book. 2. The "Warp 10 cruising speed and Warp 12 Emergency Speed" for the Enterprise is referred to, long before the Guide comes out. Specifically, it's on the beautiful cutaway poster of the Enterprise made for TMP, in 1979. 3. Although the original "Warp Factor Cubed" formula was never formally covered in an episode of TOS, it did appear in print during the shows run. Stephen Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek" was published in 1968, between the second and third seasons of the show. It includes excerpts from the "Star Trek Bible", which was a a writers guide for the shows directors and writers and it includes lots of technical information on the TOS ship and its capabilities. It is a "must have" book (in my opinion) for Star Trek fans! I love your renders of the Excelsior. Keep up the great work!

@autophreaktrishield

Ай бұрын

N c c 1 7 0 1, no bloody a, b, c d

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

ST V- updated Scots guide tells story of TW Excelsior & Ti-Ho (Transwarp Connie).

“Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise” covers TMP through STIII. There are only a few pages at the back of the book that preview some bridge console layouts from STIV.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

ST-V addendum adds backstory on Transwarp Development project.

The Lore Reloaded channel first brought this to my attention, the TOS Enterprise's engines are capable of time warp if the fuel intake was changed up a bit. Kirk did this at least once. I'm sure Starfleet was terrified by the idea that their current ship engine designs could do that and rushed a bunch of refits and fancy new engine labels to move the fleet away from a dangerous time travel design. I also am under the impression that with the peace treaty with the Kilngons, a clause was made to disarm which means retiring their battle fleets, meaning connies and the D-7s were standing down from service. Which was a pointless gesture since both factions had the Excelsior class and Katinga coming online. To me, all the new fancy tech names could have just been PR catch-phrases to awe the public and foes alike.

@hanelyp1

Ай бұрын

The light speed breakaway factor, engaging warp drive while deep in a star's gravity well, was discovered by accident. The fuel mix had to be recalculated for a cold start of the warp engines to escape falling into a black star. The same time travel method was used again in a TOS episode, and using a Klingon ship during ST4. In all cases Spock's superior mathematics skill was involved in required calculations.

Sulu seems to be a more methodical cautious character (as seen as how he reacted to the kobayashi maru simulation, opting to not get into the neutral zone). So maybe what he liked about the excelsior was related to his personality

If you go by what Mr. Scott's guide to the Enterprise says, Transwarp came from when the original Enterprise was in Tholian space and went into Interphase. They figured out they could use transporters and warp speed to create a rift to "parallel space" to go faster, thus the name Transwarp. The Excelsior was one ship that had it, and another called the Ti-Ho was the other that ended up being re-christened to Enterprise after the events in ST:IV. It's all laid out on page 112-113 of the book.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

YES, in FACT Transwarp was Discovered by MR. Spock and the Defiant "interphase" was also Discovered by Spock.

@SiXiam

Ай бұрын

@@markplott4820 Yes even if the Excelsior couldn't make the transwarp stable the concepts still could have made improvements to regular warp drives. Not to mention the Excelsior had warp nacelles much bigger and produced a lot more higher energy plasma to drive it. Same as the nacelles on the Enterprise D were massive by comparison.

In TOS the Enterprise went Warp 9 in more than just the episode with the Romulans ("The Enterprise Incident") she also did it in the episode where she pushed the asteroid out of the way ("The Paradise Syndrome"). The time the ship went Warp 14 ("That Which Survives") and Warp 10 ("Let That be Your Battlefield") the ship was being controlled by a third party but no modifications had been made to the engines. Those old connies could certainly handle a lot!!!

@BoopSnoot

Ай бұрын

Transwarp is just regular warp drive that is confused about its gender. Unlike most ships that are referred to as "she/her", transwarp Excelsior was a "they/them".

@MatthewCaunsfield

Ай бұрын

@@BoopSnoot Not what transgender means (no-one is "confused") and your statement doesn't even make sense within the context of starships - the warp drive is not the vessel!

@rbleisem

Ай бұрын

TNG "All Good Things" Ent-D Dreadnought, warp 13.

@MatthewCaunsfield

Ай бұрын

@@rbleisem Good point! Although I wonder if that's just a bit of in-universe shorthand because everyone in that timeline just got fed up of saying "Warp 9.9997356" all the time 😁😉

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

this was OLD warp scale.

I think Nilo Rodis at ILM designed Excelsior, Grissom, and the Klingon Bird-Of-Prey. All three are beautiful, iconic designs... regardless of how easily on of them is destroyed... ;)

Here's the math. Up to warp 9, the speed relative to c is the warp factor to the 10th power, then cube rooted. So the actual velocity at warp w is w^(10/3). Warp 8 is 1024 times the speed of light, because the cube root of 8 is 2, and 2^10 is 1024. (It doesn't matter what order you do the 10th power and the cube root.) Above warp 9 there's another factor that plays in for reasons, and this at warp 10 you become a lizard and mate with your captain.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

So at Warp 10 the asymptote intersects the zygote?

I'm with scotty on being unimpressed, but first impressions count for a lot and between her captain's snotty attitude and the overal ungainly superstructure? I figured Sulu was mental for wanting that ship. But I will say Sulu himself filled out the chair quite nicely.

iirc the Excelsior's transwarp drive was later mentioned to have never worked, according to an interview from around TNG it's mentioned that the Excelsiors were all refitted to remove the transwarp features and function only with normal warp, so its transwarp drive is similar to a prototype that didn't quite work.

@terranempire2

Ай бұрын

But how is never laid out. I suspect that it did go fast but the Excelsior space frame started to experience stress beyond tolerances. In STVI Sulu wants to get to Kitomer he is impatient and makes a comment “come on Come on” his helmsman responds. “Sir She’ll fly apart!” In threshold Voyager tries to rundown the shuttle Paris stole we hear the computer alerts about the ships structural integrity.

@itsmezed

Ай бұрын

@@terranempire2 "Fly her apart then!" 😁

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

I recall that too; I also recall that the Excelsior was built as a one-on-a-kind experimental test bed, but proved so sound and reliable that it was made into its own production class after a few years of service. My own headcanon was that trying to operate the transwarp drive without the specialized components that Cpt. Scott removed (which apparently the engineering staff and the ship's computer didn't know were missing beforehand - what are all those diagnostic procedures FOR, anyway?) 'did something' to the Transwarp Drive that the ship's engineers and Starfleet never quite figured out. So while Cpt. Scott may have ruined a potential engineering breakthrough in FTL propulsion, his sacrificial loyalty helped save an officer who would prove instrumental in unravelling one of the biggest interstellar conspiracies of the millenium. "Everything rises and falls on Leadership." -John Maxwell

I don't remember where I got this idea, but it was my understanding that in the Excelsior days, they were using the term transwarp simply to describe that it could jump right to higher speeds rather than gradually increment speed as often and that the tech change over was like changing out Carbs for Fuel Injectors was for cars. That might not be the best analogy, but that's how I have always understood it.

@4:33 the key words are "safe" and "cruising." Maximum speed is always greater than cruising speed. So, going Warp 9 to escape the Romulans is not a mistake on the writer's part.

@ChrisCooper312

Ай бұрын

A concept which applies to real life ships too. They will have a cruising speed, which is the most efficient and that gives a good life for the engines (at least between major overhauls). They will then have a maximum speed, this will be faster but less efficient and put more wear on the engines. Commercial ships might use that to regain lost time (since time is money), military might use it in wartime situations where getting there fast is important. Military vessels in particular will also often have an emergency speed. This is the "giving you everything she's got" speed above the normal maximum where getting away from danger or completing the mission is more important than the risk of damage to the engines. Often that can only be sustained for a certain time. On gauges these speeds (or at least the engine RPMs needed to reach them) can be colour coded as green, yellow and red bands. Same as a car, green is efficient, yellow is fine but you're using more fuel, red line isn't instantly fatal but don't hold it for too long or go the too often unless you want to be picking up bits of the engine off the road.

@VhenRaTheRaptor

Ай бұрын

@@ChrisCooper312 You see that with the Defiant-class too iirc. They can go insanely fast with their overpowered engine... but it's too much engine for too little a ship and their safe cruising speed is actually fairly low for the era.

@sabrewolf4129

Ай бұрын

In the real world, the absolute max speed would be referred to as flank speed. The navy uses this. They have 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Full and Flank. Flank speed can only be held for a few minutes before the engines burn out, which is why when the Enterprise went Warp 9, she only held it for a few minutes and burned out the nacelles. This holds true for TNG as well. The Enterprise-D had a Normal cruising speed of Warp 6 (until fuel exhaustion), a maximum cruise of Warp 9.2, a maximum top speed of Warp 9.6 for 12 hours, and then her flank speed risking burning the engine is 9.9 for 10 minutes.

In some of the older pen and paper RPG books, it's stated that there are two scales to warp speed: The old Cochrane scale, and the adjusted/new Cochrane scale. So the speeds that the TOS ships went to were an older scale which is why it goes to double digits, then with TNG they adjusted it so that it caps out at 9.999999 repeating. It implies that the Federation had taken the existing warp tech as far as it could go barring some breakthrough. So it's not a stretch to say that the transwarp used by the Excelsior became standard issue for newer ships or even refitted onto existing designs (Enterprise A) and when it became clear that they had taken the tech as far as they could they adjusted the warp speed scale to reflect that.

@sakunysz

Ай бұрын

I do believe that's the case, Excelsior's transwarp did work and just became the new warp, with a re-jiggered warp scale to avoid the silliness of warp 20, etc. Note that after ST IV, warp factor numbers are not mentioned ever again in the TOS films.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

I think that's because the TNG series was starting up on the new scale and the production staff did not want casual viewers to get confused.

From what I read decades ago, the Transwarp Drive employed by the Excelsior was pioneered by Shuvijinalis, a Vulcan outfit that sought to tie multiple warp drives together in each nacelle thereby enhancing the warp bubble effect and enabling faster travel. One of the limiting factors at the time was the computer power required by the ship to coordinate the warp nacelles and the power supply of the ship to achieve it.

in TOS "The Changeling", NOMAD augments the Enterprise's warp capacity: ENGINEER: Warp 10, Mister Scott. SCOTT: Impossible. It can't go that fast. Now, is Scotty saying the ship can't go that fast because of a law of physics or because he knows the limits of the engines?

@Revkor

Ай бұрын

I say engines. take battleship Texas. she can only go 21 knots if her engines worked but the Iowa's can go 33 knots and that is not a physics issue but a engine tech issue

@AidenDark

Ай бұрын

​@@Revkor there are physics issues in it though. Laminar flow, or the properties of a liquid flowing over a surface effect the speed of ships. In this case the Iowa does move faster than the Texas but its a combination of hull design and engines. The same could be said and is mentioned in trek. The "warp bubble geometry" of various ships.

@yewtoob2007

Ай бұрын

@@AidenDark and of course Scotty being a Trek hero character would know that all like the back of his hand **KONK** Yes, so Scotty is likely referring to his knowledge of the ship's limits amd not a Law of Trek Physics. So, when did this narrative analogue for the speed of light, "Warp 10" begin? Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home?

@Revkor

Ай бұрын

@@AidenDark engine more then deisgn

@MatthewCaunsfield

Ай бұрын

Given that the Enterprise once went Warp 14 simply by virtue of a mechanical error in the engines, I don't think the limit is one of physics

Saying stuff like "Warp 9.99976" gets old very fast. They should have changed the Warp scale to go beyond Warp 10.

@Potrimpo

Ай бұрын

Warp 13

@GrantWaller.-hf6jn

Ай бұрын

Or Space Balls ludicrous speed

@s3p4kner

Ай бұрын

They've gone to Plaid!

@GrantWaller.-hf6jn

Ай бұрын

We use 2 9s 3 9s 4 9s for purity of metals

@GrantWaller.-hf6jn

Ай бұрын

​@@s3p4knerthey over shot us by a week and half

I'm personally a fan of the idea the Great Experiment of the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive, while a failure, did lead to the upgraded TNG-era warp scale. I personally like the idea that it was the Enterprise-B that got to be the first ship with the TNG-era style engines while all the other ships in the fleet had the older one. This made the Enterprise-B the only ship around fast enough to get to the Nexus Ribbon for the rescue mission, rather than being the only ship around.

@pauld6967

Ай бұрын

I like your thinking. That does make it more plausible for why the Enterprise-B is the one that responds to the emergency.

@rbleisem

Ай бұрын

@@pauld6967 Indeed

@rbleisem

Ай бұрын

Seems logical

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

hated Design of ENT - B , very poor Design , uninspired. the STOCK Excelsior class was Good Enough as Enterprise - B.

@Rocketsong

Ай бұрын

@@markplott4820 I rather like the larger impulse deck. The extensions on the lower engineering hull are *bleh*, but those were of course added so they could blow them up without damaging the model.

I found that V^5 actually works to reflect certain known distances and travel times. TNG era eventually revised Warp Factor based on Relativity, with the decimal place moved one place to the right. Sulu was fascinated, because he was her captain. He'd only been aboard enterprise as a favor to Kirk.

I myself never liked the Transwarp phrasing, possibly due to the absurdity of "Threshold," the already WAY too overpowered nature of the Borg, and the sheer stupidity of the writers of ANY JJ Abrams/Alex Kurtzman production. Warp Drive just sounds impressive enough. It's certainly more impressive than using magic mushrooms/spores to travel the Galaxy instantaneously. The idea of advancements in technology allowed the Warp scale to be increased between TOS and TMP to TNG eras, which is far more plausible; This even applies to Archer's Era as well.

@alexmckee4683

Ай бұрын

Yeah Star Trek from the movie era to the late TNG series felt like it was based on mature scientific and engineering concepts. From Voyager onwards it got sillier and sillier, with "cool" stuff like quantum slipstream drive to the ludicrous transwarp in Threshold and just ever more plot driven stuff, throwaway concepts, etc. I think this probably parallels the decay in the writing room away from people who actually had some genuine scientific and engineering knowledge towards people who did not. Kurtzman era speaks for itself in how utterly brain-dead most of the concepts are.

@Tuning3434

Ай бұрын

@@alexmckee4683 Voyager doubled down on the 'loose writing conventions / e.g. story goes above worldbuilding' that was always a thing in TOS and actually quite a lot of TNG as well. It is just that TNG also had a few writers that really did some of the essential world building, that we consider TNG as the source of lore (and it is, except when it isn't). Voyager didn't felt obliged to follow those rules that strictly, because the writer team felt them as too limiting. I would argue there was an era where the writing team considered scientific consultancy as an inspirational source, and as a limiting source. While I do think TOS and TNG draw more inspiration of it, there is also a lot of nonsense technobabble junk in TNG, it was just that they didn't want to focus and resolve every episode with it to the extend to how Voyager sometimes did to solve 'action excitement' with 'the great reset for next episode'. TNG could always revert back to 'repairs at Starbase ###' in the coda of their episodes.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

​@@Tuning3434 I read what you're describing as throwing away 'realistic near-futurism' in favor of 'the rule of cool.' Sure TNG and DS9 invented stuff, but they didn't throw established science out the window. I could never before succinctly describe what happened to the writing between the start of TNG and the end of Voyager. Thank you.

The original concept behind the Excelsior's transwarp drive was the idea of projecting a warpfield far ahead of the ship and could be projected in a different way as to intersect with other vessels the Excelsior was trying to outrun. By intersection of the two fields it wouldn't matter how fast the other ship could go, the Excelsior would always be faster and could intercept. There were side affects to using this drive i.e. relativity issues and thus the drive was deemed a failure and the warp drive thresholds were just recalculated. This concept was used in the newer star trek 2 when sulu says "I'm getting a reading I don't understand." It was the Vengeance using the transwarp concept and intercepting and crossing into the Enterprise's warp field.

There have been three man varieties of warp drive. The Phoenix started with "Space Warp". Then by the time of the original enterprise in the Cage they used "Time Warp". This later became refered to just as warp drive. The Excelsior had "Trans Warp". By the time of TNG it was just called warp drive. My theory is that the Excelsiors Transwarp was when they started using subspace for travel rather than just communications.

Actually in the original "Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" printing in 1987 has both with the Enterprise and the Enterprise A starting in the Appendix starting on page 111. Some notes I enjoyed in the Acknowledgements is special references were provided by the FASA Corporation. Whaaaaaaaat!?! Also on page 14, maximum velocity is Warp 12. Additionally starting on page 112 is the introduction to the history of the USS Ti-Ho and the reference the Ti-Ho was NOT a Constitution refit. It was built new from the bottom up as an "Enterprise" class (see design proposal on page 20-21) AND having been equipped with Transwarp drive. It would make sense. especially in Star Trek V the warp engine core is the Next Generation's design. Unfortunately FASA lost it's licensing and therefore future credits.

“ in conclusion, the Excelsior was under appreciated” made me chuckle, in a good way

Definitions change over time. What transwarp meant in the 23rd century did not have to be the same in the 24th. "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" is actually a guide of the 1701. The end of the book does cover the A, however. It shows close-ups of the displays on the bridge and transwarp drive is indicated to be on the A. (Continuity becomes a mess after that)

My take has always been that the Transwarp project in the Excelsior failed but Starfleet engineers were able to gain enough useful data for improvements that then allowed for the adjusted warp scale. True Transwarp is achievable by more sophisticated civilisations but very complex to implement. The Borg Transwarp conduits are an attempt to build guide rails around some other species' attempts at making a Transwarp drive. Too complex to implement on a ship-by-ship basis, easier to build something that more closely resembles a pocket wormhole with fixed ends.

The Enterprise-A was not "shiny and new" as we see in ST5. Scotty's first scene he even quotes the Kirk's last line from the previous film. It's an old ship, renamed. Likely even been planned for decommission (just like the 1701 refit) until Kirk's time travel stunt that saved Earth. Then it was given the rename as this is the class of ship Kirk and the Enterprise are known for.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

Ti-Ho just Returned from her unsuccessful Shake Down cruise as TW test bed. (ST-IV). she was Stripped of all her TW materiel, and fitted w/ STANDARD FW-1 warp units used on all ENTERPRISE class Cruisers. but was left in unfinished state for Scotty & Engineering teams to sort out.

@j.rileyindependentproductions

Ай бұрын

@@markplott4820 Ti-Ho? If I am understanding you correctly, there is absolutely nothing canon that says anything about transwarp being added to the Enterprise-A.

@scottjgray83

16 күн бұрын

Am pretty sure the Enterprise -A was the Yorktown ncc1717 renamed. Which seems weird. They were already building excelsior ships you would think they would have just waited and named one of them Enterprise A. The yorktown would be in the same boat as the enterprise looking at decommissioning along with all the other constitution class ships

@markplott4820

16 күн бұрын

@@scottjgray83 - both the NEW Transwarp ships were Developed in parallel. similar to FIGHTER jet contracts TODAY in 2024. then they see which one is most Successful & BUDGET.

@ealan3694

16 күн бұрын

The dialogue in ST5 indicates no such thing if you examine what is said closely. And honestly, if you go back to ST1 TMP with the refit of the Enterprise. The Refit is practically an entirely new ship, which is supported by Commander Decker and Scotty's dialogue. At most only the the spaceframe / skeleton of the saucer, dorsal neck and maybe half of the engineering hull remained intact, and even then was likely heavily modified and reinforced. We know the saucer diameter was expanded, the neck was braced and reinforced and the engineering hull was reshapped and expanded. All the hull plating, was replaced, and virtually every one of the ship systems were likewise replaced and upgraded. So calling it a refit is really a misnomer. The ship was practically disassebled 90-95% of the way, all the way down to the bones of the ship and rebuilt from the bottom up. So any Constitution-class ships being 'refit' into the new Enterprise-class subtype are virtually brand new ships if they followed the same process. (And Enterprise-class is the correct term for the Constitution refit from TMP and Wrath of Khan. That is what was intended onscreen and does actually make it onscreen in Wrath. The term Constitution-class, for the original TOS design, did not even emerge until it's 1st two onscreen appearences 1st in TNG Season 1, Episode 3, "The Naked Now" in the ship logs/dialogue referring to the virus in 1987, and ST6 Undiscovered Country on a ship blueprint Scotty was looking at. So the Constitution-class name is actually a retcon.) Really, the closest you'll get in modern naval parlance, I think if I recall correctly, is the US Navy literally taking part ofthe mast, something like 3-4 portholes and some 35,000 lbs of the hull/framing from the USS Enterprise CVN-65 "The Big E" and incorporating the materials into CVN-80 USS Enterprise. You would never call CVN-80 a refit, or even a rebuild of CVN-65. It is a brand new ship. Just with some CVN-65 DNA in it, which if I also remember correctly, was also built using materials/artifacts or components taken from CV-6. It's a big naval tradition when building a namesake ship to take something from the predecessor. If you delve into the lore though, Starfleet was on abit of Public Relations campaign after the events of TOS, trying to reassure the Federation Public that Starfleet could maintain the peace. Alot of the original Constitutions met unfortunate ends... But the Constitution-class was still Starfleet's crown jewel, and the Enterprise their prized diamond. So they wanted to maintain the connection to Starfleet's golden era of exploration, so elected to 'refit' the Enterprise and later, maybe the rest of the Constitutions. There's some debate if the other surviving TOS style Constitutions were refitted or scrapped though, or if everything was a new build after the refit of the Enterprise. Because refitting them, you might as well be building an entirely new ship anyways and Enterprise may have just been an exception / test bed for the refit design. I think some of the confirmed 'refit' Constitutions with names from the orignal 12 have appeared in records or on screen bridge displays with differing registry numbers, which implies the new build theory. Kinda like how there are actually 2 USS Excelsior's. NX/NCC-2000 and NCC-27445. Both excelsior-class.

I have to reckon that the Excelsior is basically a Dreadnaught-styled battleship with massive engines for getting places, like the pocket-battleships of WW2.

Excelsior was an experimental ship and was ultimately a failure. The Captain says, "If he tries to get away with warp drive, hes really in for a shock', clearly establishing that Excelsior's transwarp drive is something different and separate from warp drive.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

It doesn't *establish* that, it _suggests_ that. The only thing the audience is supposed to understand is that "warp drive cannot outrun transwarp drive."

@springbloom5940

Ай бұрын

@@HuntingTarg It does establish it. Many 'suggestions' are made prior to the final moment where the Excelsior's drive is distinguished from common warp drive.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

@@springbloom5940 If you're saying that that final element of dialog "establishes" it because it's been alluded to up to that point, I'm saying you're mistaken from a waiting perspective. We never see the Excelsior's Transwarp drive actually operate, so that's a 'claim without a demonstration.' It could be as simple as different speed scales as the video discusses, analagous to the difference between subsonic and supersonic aircraft. Or it could be a fundamental difference like that between an 'air-breathing' engine and a rocket. I probably should rewatch ST III, it's been a while; "but if memory serves", we don't _know._ It's implied; it's not stated, explained, or demonstrated. So it's not established. Nevertheless... _"I want to believe"_

"All speeds available through transwarp drive" I always assumed that transwarp, in the context of ST III, meant a zero acceleration curve. Starships use to have to accelerate up to their desired warp factor (warp 1 -> warp 2 -> etc). This along with the Excelsior being designed from the ground up with the new vertical wardcore meant it'd naturally be significantly faster than the Constitution class. The 'transwarp' we'd naturally think of didn't exist until, I think it was that TNG 2 parter with Lore and the Borg. Transwarp in STIII (1984) =/= transwarp in TNG ( The Descent 1993)

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

Calling them "Transwarp Conduits" meant to me that they were some sort of hyperspatial energy structure, along the lines of 'Superstrings', that didn't require intense energy output to use, only to 'construct.' A forward comparison might be how the MCU portrayed the Bifrost. It was like an 'energy highway' that the nu-Borg co-engineered both the conduits and their ships to operate together to use the principle of transwarp (whatever that was) without generating the whole phenomenon from the ship alone.

I bought the TNG tech manual back in the 90's. It explained that they recalculated warp speed in the intervening years for simplicity's sake, to avoid having to use expressions like warp 9.999.

I can agree with this interpretation, with Transwarp being the evolutionary "Find ways to go faster with warp technology" and quantum slipstream being the really revolutionary tech.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

I don't remember the explanation given behind Quantum Slipstream, but I do remember being unimpressed by it. Too many things got the 'Quantum' label slapped on them; the Defiant had 'quantum torpedoes', for example. I never felt like they were 'legit' the way other 'writer-invented' tech in Star Trek was. Slipstream might sound cool to casual audiences, but Star Trek fans were not a casual audience the way fans of Cheers or Grey's Anatomy were. If I wanted to come up with a new propulsion tech, I might have called it "Supraspatial Quantum Tunneling Field", or "SQT Field" for brevity. So yes, I used 'Quantum', but now people don't have to _SAY_ "Quantum" a dozen or two times in an episode.

Excelsior experimental drive allowed ships to instantly go to any warp speed, whereas Enterprise would have to go through warp 1-8 to reach nine. What made it Transwarp was that it went beyond the existing scale. Exclesior drive soon set a new standard, which was why the TNG scale was redesigned. Warp 9.2 for Galaxy class would be warp 12 for Constitution.

My thoughts about ST3 trans-warp. When the Enterprise goes to warp, Sulu reads velocities: warp 1, warp 2, warp 3... Up to desired speed. The Excelsior officer says: all speeds available through trans-warp drive. In my opinion it's simple. The old warp drive has to accelerate to higher speeds while trans-warp can jump into a higher velocity directly.

As I understand it, the Excelsior's trans warp drive was a new type of warp drive that was suppose to provide speeds far in excess of warp 10. It wasn't abandoned because Scotty sabotaged it, the Excelsior was it's test bed and it was heavily tested during the Star Trek 3-5 period and failed to produce the greater speed in practice that the theoretical model promised. It still worked, just not any better than the standard warp drive but far more complex, more complicated and prone to failure and more expensive, so Starfleet deemed it a failed experiment and the rest of the Excelsior class were equip with conventional warp drives. As for the Excelsior being a "cruiser", no she was a Battleship with much greater firepower and limited armor. Where most ships in Starfleet were "starships" meaning they were primarily ships for science and exploration, having extensive scientific facilities, while equipped with more limited firepower to defend herself if attacked, the Excelsior class had only basic scientific facilities and were very heavily armed, intended with the primary role of protecting the Federation border against invasion. The Miranda class (USS Reliant) was also designed on this basis, as a cheap version of the Constitution class with much more limited scientific facilities to act as cruisers for patrolling the the Klingon and Romulan borders and escorting the Excelsiors in combat. Both served Starfleet, with numerous upgrades up to the Dominion Wars.

Transwarp is a simple collective term for all types of technology that are faster than warp. Just like "wormhole" as said in a Voyager episode. However, as the warp drive has evolved, the definition of "transwarp" has of course changed over time. Warp factor 12 on the old scale corresponds to just Warp 9.4 on the TNG scale. And Warp 14 of the old scale corresponds to Warp 9.8 of the TNG scale. Both are speeds that Starfleet could not achieve on its own in the 23rd century, but which are within the range of what is technically possible in the 24th century. The Voth then developed this classic warp technology even further. They probably use a similar transwarp system to the failed shuttle experiment with Tom Paris, at least based on the CGI effect. They have found a way to be way faster than normal warp, but without breaking the barrier, with all its negative side effects. The Borg use tunnels through subspace, similar to the Xindi. Something in between warp and wormhole. The only truly exotic space travel technology is space folding (coaxial warp or Sikarian space trajectory or Rutian teleporter (inverter)) I assume the technology of the Kalandans and the Iconians are also based on space folding.

This is an artifact of the rescaling of warp speeds. The "Transwarp" drive originally included on the USS Excelsior was really just an advanced warp drive that became commonplace by the time of TNG.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

star trek Spaceflight Chronology (pocket books) mentions in 24th Century Development of ULTRA warp.

@VhenRaTheRaptor

Ай бұрын

Honestly... I assume it's just a Starfleet [internal, possibly originally in engineering circles and then subsequently misused by people who don't understand] terminology for warp drive technology superior to current warp drive. The second it gets adopted in large amounts it ceases to be transwarp.

Pretty sure "transwarp" was just a buzzword created for Excelsior's new engine. It literally just means "faster than warp". The reason it disappeared was just because warp engines improved, and it wasn't a special technology like say the Spore Drive. Great video.

One of the best looking ships in the series and my favorite.

Thanks! Love your renders and deep analysis of space battles

Excelsior's a beautiful ship, surprised you didn't talk about it's other special propulsion modification though. It gets an additional 5 horsepower for every anime sticker ya put on the nacelles! ;D

One of the things that people tend to forget within Star Trek, is that scientists and researchers were constantly trying to push the boundaries of what was possible and were also discovering new ways to do things that may be slightly different than the older tech but could have improvements to a lesser or greater degree. Even real life navies had these types of experimentations and testing of new concepts. A excellent example over on the battleship New Jersey KZread channel is shown by the difference between the New Jersey’s skegs and the other three Iowa class battleships. And I guess the greater point is that even if a technology has been found to be superior to something, it may not replace that older tech, or something else is developed that supersedes that particular innovation.

When we talk about warp speed being multiples and cubes of the Speed of Light, one thing that is not mentioned here is the following from online sources: According to the current understanding of physics, we can never go faster than the speed of light. This is because the speed of light is the limit for any object with mass, and accelerating to the speed of light would require infinite energy and result in infinite mass of the accelerating object. The speed of light is also essential for the laws of causality and special relativity, which would be violated by any hypothetical particle that could travel faster than light (tachyons?). ********** I know that they show warp drive ships traveling through space with the stars flying by and many times on Star Trek they talk about it taking hours or days to get to their destination. When I was young, I thought the "warp" drive meant they were warping space back on itself. If true, then you wouldn't see the stars flying by and it wouldn't take hours or days to get to their destination. Warping space back onto itself means instantaneous travel from point A to B. Like how the Spore Drive works on the U.S.S. Discovery. A quick joke: When I was in college taking engineering classes, one of my professors asked, "What's the fasted way to get from point A to point B?" A student in the class said, "A straight line." I raised my hand and said "Unless you watch Star Trek. Then the fastest way from point A to point B is a "point". LOL However, everyone is probably going to tell me that the warp engines don't warp space. But think about it, if the warp engines did warp space, they would be creating a wormhole and traveling great distances would (or could) be instantaneous. ********** From Online Sources: A wormhole is a hypothetical structure connecting disparate points in spacetime and is based on a special solution of the Einstein field equations. A wormhole can be visualized as a tunnel with two ends at separate points in spacetime (i.e., different locations, different points in time, or both). Wormholes are consistent with the general theory of relativity, but whether wormholes actually exist remains to be seen. Theoretically, a wormhole might connect extremely long distances such as a billion light-years, or short distances such as a few meters, or different points in time, or even different universes. Thanks for reading!

Excellent video. You once again Excelled at the topic. Thank you and...Excelsior!❤

I’m a simple trek fan. I see the Excelsior, and I click. As a kid, 3 was probably the first Star Trek movie I saw (beat up vhs copy), and the one I saw the most. The Excelsior will always have a special place in my heart - even as a kid I was horrified by Scotty sabotaging her.

@k1productions87

Ай бұрын

I often wonder how my Trek experience would have been, had my introduction been Search for Spock. I know 6-year-old Me wouldn't have liked it, had I started with Wrath of Khan. Fortunately for me, Voyage Home was my first ever Star Trek, and it captured my soul and never let go. Though Search for Spock remains very near and dear to my heart for numerous reasons. I am one of these super rare fans that but both Voyage and Search above Wrath of Khan (which,... lets be honest with ourselves here, we only watch for the space battles anyway)

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

​@@k1productions87 I really appreciated Kirstey Alley as Saavik; I couldn't get used to anyone else. I think I was part of audience consensus which is why Saavik was written out at the start of ST IV .

@k1productions87

Ай бұрын

@@HuntingTarg She wasn't written out of ST IV as much as she was written IN for a bit part. The only reason she didn't appear in ST VI is because neither Robin nor Kirstey could do it, and they didn't want to re-cast the role a THIRD time. Honestly, I would have kinda liked to have seen the emotional impact it would have had for the familiar Saavik to be the one in Valeris' shoes.

@HuntingTarg

Ай бұрын

@@k1productions87 YES. THIS. The great character arc that never was... It could have been much higher - and darker - drama for Spock to mindrape his own protegé to unravel a murderous conspiracy. Alas, we shall never know for sure...

the warp scale was re-calibrated from TOS when an upper limit to warp speed was found. similar to celcius, the freezing point being zero, and the boiling point being 100, the new warp scale was 1-10, the 10 being the newfound upper limit.

Great work as always!

While I read and appreciate everyone's comments, I believe that "Jeremy-83" is the closest to being correct. If you look up the meaning of the prefix "trans" this is what the definition states: * on the other side of * to go beyond * to cross over * to pass through * to overcome To me, this means a Transwarp ship has Warp 1 through 9.99... and the Transwarp drive takes it beyond 9.99... Hence, "to cross over" to Transwarp speeds, "to pass through" the previous barrier of Warp 9.99, "to go beyond" Warp 9.99, and "to overcome" the other ship they are chasing. I'm not sure where the idea that Transwarp meant going directly to that speed came from. But the way the "Trans" prefix is defined, it seems they would have to accelerate through the other warp speeds to get to Transwarp speeds. Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country: Sulu: In range? Helm Officer: Not yet sir. Sulu: Come on. Come on. Helm Officer: She'll fly apart. Sulu: Then, fly her apart! Unfortunately, they never state which warp speed they are at or if they're using the Transwarp drive at that moment on the U.S.S. Excelsior. One might assume that they are using the high end of Transwarp speeds, and this is why the Helm Officer says, "She'll fly apart". Star Trek - Into Darkness: Dr. Marcus: He's gonna catch up with us, and when he does, the only thing that's gonna stop him from destroying this ship is me, so you have to let me talk to him. Kirk: Carol, we're at warp. He can't catch up with us. Dr. Marcus: Yes, he can. He's been developing a ship that has advanced warp capabilities... Sulu: Captain! I'm getting a reading I don't understand. (A Transwarp signature?) Thanks for reading!

I remember reading some where that the warp drive the the Excelsior had in ST:3 was based on the scans the Enterprise too of interphase space in the episode The Tholian Web. The Enterprise A was supposed to have had a similar warp drive, and the cause of it's issues during the start of ST:5, and allowed it to punch through the great barrier. Both warp drives proved to be difficult to use so by the time of ST:6, the drive was scrapped and all ships refitted with the old style of drives.

I always associated the longer nacelles not with speed, but more endurance and power, so my theory was it could run at high warp much longer with no need for “rest stops”.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

this was a Interim solution , while the BRAHMS warp drive was perfected in the 24th Century.

The Excelsior has to have been a great build because well into the TNG they were still using it for various tasks and it even did solid work against the Defiant. Which- while a much smaller ship wasn't designed for war- yet it held it's own against a much more modern ship.

always a fascinating topic to geek out on. Scotty's line about stopping up the drain her refers to the transwarp "computer drive" which in context of everything else makes it sounds like the warp drive has some kind of amazing automation component to it and that's the advance. but of course why would Sulu be impressed by that? In any case some of the weird novelizations of both Star Trek 5 and 6 suggest that the Enterprise A is indeed using transwarp drive, which always made me think that's what they just call "warp drive" from then on.

Great minds think alike! I've been saying for years that the difference in warp scales from TOS to TNG was because the TNG scale was based on transwarp! Pretty cool that I'm not the only one to think of that.

Great video. I always felt the Excelsior class was more than just a faster ship myself. The sheer size of it, including a very massive hanger bay, implied it could carry more, handle more types of support ships than just shuttle craft, and probably had much larger labs and other facilities. It was likely a command ship of sorts. I like your ship models as well. Very crisp and attractive rendering. I can only imagine what you've done with the "interesting" classes like the Decatur class starships.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

it was MORE warship than the ENTERPRISE class (NEW Connie) starships. the term BATTLE Cruiser comes up.

@davidalangay1186

Ай бұрын

@@markplott4820 perhaps, but the Excelsior itself was on an assignment to catalog gaseous anomalies before it came across the Praxis explosion. This implies multiple functionality in mission assignments, much like the Constitution class and the Constitution refit class.

From what I read, Warp speeds in the time of TOS were calculated as factor^3 (so warp 5 would be 125 (5*5*5) times the speed of light) But in TNG, the speeds were such that the old system was no longer able to keep up, so the speeds are now calculated as factor^5 (so warp 5 would be 3,125 (5*5*5*5*5) times the speed of light)

Mr Scott's Guide To The Enterprise mostly covered the Enterprise refit, and only the last section covers the Enterprise-A. It also has really, really weird grasp of dates that conflicts with the date of the Romulan Ale in TWOK.

I always seen the excelsior as structurally a total success, to the point the lessons of its design lessons were used on the most successful trek designs, soverign being one of the biggest examples in my opinion. I was always a member of the camp that the excelsior help rewrite the warp factor scale. Though I do like your theory that the term transwarp is a stage above the current warp scale.

When did Styles say "Warp your eye"? I always heard it as "if he tries to get away we'll Warp Drive" said with a slight drawl.

When I was a kid in the 80s, role playing games were all the rage, my nerd group played a ton of Star Fleet Battles, and the Fasa role playing game based on Star Trek. They mapped out one heck of universe that made tons of sense. Sadly, I really can't separate the two products all these years later...they kinda just merged into one for me. Either way, That universe was so much better then what Star Trek ended up becoming. As best as I can remember, in that universe the Transwarp drive was not flexible, you wound it up and it went in one direction with no change of direction vs standard warp being more flexible with the ability to deviate the heading to a degree while under warp ( as I recall this put stress on the craft with some ships being more robust then others when it came to this type of strain). That whole idea was born from an episode the enterprise was attacked while at warp by an Orion craft moving at high speed and changing direction. I want to say it was moving at warp 12...but I dont remember the episode ( in the role playing game it was an Orion lighting moving at warp 12). Anyways....as I recall the change of warp factor never made much sense in universe. To us that was akin....to changing all speedometer on cars because people would get confused when cars moved from 10 miles per hour to 20 miles per hour...due to adoption of gasoline powered engines or some such nonsense.... it was just dumb then, and it is dumb today.

Actually, in Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology which was a book which was published in 1980 and was officially tied into The Motion Picture, the refit Enterprise is listed as a warp 12 heavy cruiser. The book was written and edited by Stan Goldstein and Fred Goldstein, and illustrated by Rick Sternbach. The book can be considered canon since it was an officially licensed product tied to TMP.

As technical and thorough as this was.....I completely understood. ❤

I love Star Trek since I watched my first classic episode on west-german tv when I was six and was immediately fascinated. I grew up in the GDR, it was illegal to watch western tv, but most people did it anyway. Being confined by that wall, west-german tv was my window to the world, but Star Trek... Star Trek was my window to the stars, to the universe and to a dream of a better humankind, a better world. This might sound dramatic, but that's how it is and that is why I love Star Trek so much. But I totally digress, what I actually wanted to say is that despite being quite the Star Trek nerd, I never really cared about Warp factors and accuracy when it came to the speed of starships. Sure, there are points where things stopped making even the slightest sense for me, like that Voyager episode (although Tezunegari gave an explanation in the comments that actually puts some sense into why Janeway and Paris turned into newts), but all in all, I always saw the 'speed question' as a tool, as a story element that helped increasing the suspense, if this is the right term. This does not mean I don't understand that and why people care about this, it's just the way I see it.

Mr. Scotts guide was for the original refit of the enterprise pre- destruction, they do mention the Enterprise A towards the end of the book that's where the whole USS Ti-Ho mess came from

7:30 as well, you see in STIV on the new bridge that she has Excelsior class instrumentation. i think they misunderstood the warp scale, and had to redraw it because of Excelsior. I think it started with Intermix in TMP and vastly improved by Excelsior, which WASNT a failure. 23rd Century Trans Warp was branding, like 'Transcending the old Warp scale'. Best part was with the new engineering acumen they introduced in the refit era, all they had to do was a quick swap of the warp core etc vs a large scale refit IE ships were a lot more modular in the movie era (lower downtimes in starbase), like clamshell nacelles etc. Also, i would like to add, i suspect another reason for 1701 being retired was the same reason 1701-A was, there was a new Excelsior waiting in the wings to be the new flagship bearing the name Enterprise, then Jim Kirk fouled that up (giving a new ship that was going to be christened under another registry, originally), so she ended up waiting another almost decade to be refitted and used as an improvement over the NCC-2000, making it a new subclass. Also the build quality issue Scotty comments on rings quite true, as they were in an arms race til the destruction of Praxis.

The Warp scale was altered between TOS and TNG; originally Warp didn't have a "top" speed, but later Warp 10 became the top speed consisting of "infinite velocity". That's why speeds are always measured with decimals, similar to how a body with mass can never reach the speed of light but rather we can calculate the effects of reaching things like .9999999999 speed of light. In other words, in TOS Warp 9.999 is about 1000x the speed of light (in time to reach destination); in TNG it's over 200,000x the speed of light.

I always viewed the Excelsior-class transwarp project as a call back to the age of flight when they were working to break the sound barrier. To go trans supersonic. The transonic range or barrier where you're breaking the sound barrier. Transwarp was the end goal of the Excelsior, to get into the 'Super warp' velocities range, akin to 'Super sonic.' But instead of reaching 'super warp' speeds, they discovered another range of warp velocities in between the then standard warpdrives and transwarp speeds, that all warp drives would be able to access going forward. It was an evolutionary step forward, but not a revolutionary quantum leap ahead in warp. So not a failure, just not the success Starfleet had been hoping for.

I could be mistaken, but I do not remember the original series Bible ever having any kind of scale for thewarp factors. Or “ time warp factors” as per the pilot. If I recall correctly, that was just one of those things that writers were not supposed to worry about getting specific on, and that warp was ultimately defined as the speed of plot. I made up that phrasing myself, but I remember the writers Bible saying that in a more dignified fashion. As far as I can remember the idea of or factors being cubes of the number was introduced in 1975 in the Franz Joseph technical manual, Which appears to be something the author himself made up. At the time the movie came out people had pretty much excepted the cube thing as Fannon, and I consistently heard people say that trans war drive was the war factor to the fourth power instead of the third. Again, That was Fanon. There is a throwaway line in Star Trek three where someone says, “all speeds attainable through trans warp Drive.” Which a lot of people discussing at the time might have meant that the ship can simply go whatever speed it wants. There is a line in the novelization that mentions that a small transwarp prototype ship had just made it to Andromeda. I assume that was something the author simply made up on their own initiative but still an interesting idea.

Personally I just always made up my version of transwarp where it worked but was either not practical, reliable, or perhaps even caused negative health effects to the crew. In any case the issues appeared to have no solutions so the technology was abandoned and they refitted Excelsior with a conventional warp drive and simply kept improving the standard warp technology. Then as more was learned about the nature of warp they could theorize the maximum possible velocity and rescaled the formula so the factors would go from zero (stationary) with warp 1 marking c velocity (speed of light in a vacuum) and ending at warp 10 and scaled exponentially like the Richter scale.

Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise was about 1701 Refit not the A. A go a small Appendix at the end

There actually is some documentary evidence that the transparency drive was a failure. There is an Enterprise D tech manual that mentions the other Enterprises. It states The Enterprise B being an Excelsior class ship and that the original transwarp experiments were a failure but the Hull was sound so Excelsior was refitted with a traditional warp drive and this drive was fitted all subsequent Excelsior ships.

Get even weirder when you recall the Voth also had a form of transwarp drive with a similar visual effect to the Warp 10 one from "Threshold". Not sure what impression that was supposed to give, that they perfected a form of that without the weird evolutionary side-effect or they just weren't greedy and figured out to keep shy of "infinite velocity".

In one of my many tech books I am pretty sure it said somewhere that the warp factor was multiplied by a factor of 5 with newer engines instead of 3 after a certain time.

at the beginning of Voyager, it's stated that at Voyager's maximum safe cruising warp factor, it would take about 70 years to traverse the 70,000 lightyears back to Federation space, making warp 9.975 a speed of ~1000 ly per year, 0.11415525 ly per hour, or 1,079,252,640 (~1.1 million) KM/h, or 1,000.68512511 (~1001) times the speed of light. either there's a problem with that equation, or the time back to home space was calculated with a speed of warp 7.9 something in mind.

According to the Star Fleet Tech Manual published in the 1970s, the max. safe cruising speed of a Constitution class ship is warp 6 with an emergency speed of warp 8. Yet more inconsistency in the writing.

NEW engines, even if following a class standard design can be expected to run more efficiently than 20-30 (earth) year old engines of a same, or more likely, earlier, design.

I always thought Transwarp meant the Excelsior as capable of going directly to warp 9 without having to gradually go from 1 to 2 to 3, etc... thus, "all speeds available through transwarp drive, captain." (or something like that).

Personal guess was that the Excelsior managed to be significantly faster than the Constitution class ships, but it didn't manage to provide the massive breakthrough that was hoped for. Hence why it could have led to the revised TNG warp scale, but transwarp still remained elusive.

"Transwarp Drive" could've been shorthand for "Transformative Warp Drive." In such a case, the TNG scale could be the transwarp scale of the movie era, but since there was no longer a need to differentiate between the scales, they just called it "warp." It's possible that quantum slipstream and borg transwarp are related technologies. How do you handle slipstream's navigation issues? With the Borg, it seems like they just made safe travel corridors/conduits to pass through. In which case, Borg tech could be "transwarp" in the sense that it's "beyond warp" and the difference between transwarp and slipstream is "do you need a conduit network to achieve the speed, or do you use temporal sensors/pilot craft?"

Not 100% sure which resource was quoted (maybe the Enterprise D technical manual) but I remember it being stated that the warp factors for TNG era vessels was 5 times instead of the 3 times for the TOS era ones. Was the 3.3 factor you mentioned from a cannon source?

@sabrewolf4129

Ай бұрын

It's in the TNG tech manual and is simple math. Just take the log of the velocity divided by the log of the speed gives you 10/3 or 3.3333, at least up to warp 9, then it becomes an asymptotic curve. Warp 9.9 which is listed as 3053 works to 3.5 and 9.99 is 7912 and is 3.9. That curve was actually pretty stupid from a writing perspective as it was IMPOSSIBLE to say what an actual speed was. Going with a speed of Warp 9.99999987564354329 ad infinitum was just stupid to the nth degree.

5:00 There were a set of blueprints put out after Star Trek The Motion Picture by Herman Zimmerman that shows the Emergency speed of the Enterprise as Warp 12 (1728c) which translates very closely to the Warp 9.2 they have listed for the Enterprise-A for the TNG era which is 9.2^3.3381 (1649c), not too far off.

The best, most consistent, explanation for TOS to the movies to TNG was found on the various times Enterprise TOS was meddled with by guest stars. NOMAD increased effeciency to achieve ludicrous speed. The Kelvins did too. The design engineer that went mad did so by changing intermix and landing them lost in hyperspace or non normal space. Spock and Scotty themselves did it with the rough emergency intermix formula of a cold start in one of the 1st episodes. None of these things were permanent...as like the Simpsons...they mostly reset every time credits roll. However the ship had orocess control computers so if IRL the changes would be recorded, even if undone by the aliens. S3 used Warp 9 as the big dramatic command. Maybe that was the amount of alterations the 20 yo ship's hull and systems could handle. Maybe that's why M5 was placed on Enterprise to see if a computer could better handle ludicrous speed of Warp9. The new engines for TMP were obviously a major change of some sort....so major that they almost destroyed themselves on first use....and Adm Kirk had to be overridden by Cpt Decker because the systems were brand new. Kirk was about to blunder them to destruction. So Excelsior was most likely a decade of developments based on modifications that plots had made to Enterprise, along with new Federation engineering. New hull design to handle the strains.

Ty for the video and LLAP! =)

I’ve always wondered about this.

I always considered the Trans Warp drive of the Excelsior to be the change to the warp speed chart from TOS to TNG era.

I think you are correct to a point. I think Starfleet had hopes for faster than the Excelsior achieved. However as they were doing trials they kept getting structural stress warnings. We see in STVI when Sulu is trying to get to Kitomer to aid the Enterprise his helmsman warned that the ship could “Fly apart”. In the less weird parts of Threshold the Voyager tries to catch the Shuttle and the computer starts warning of Structural stresses. Paris during simulations in the attempt kept failing as the Shuttle’s warp nacelles kept shearing off. In the 32nd century designs we see Starfleet’s new ships including the refit Discovery now have Nacelles free floating likely solving the issue of the nacelles being ripped off.

6:26 Isn't there a reference of Data saying that no Federation drive has failed for X years which corresponds to the date of "The Great Experiment"? 8:42 I would agree. In FASA, if you happen to be familiar with this supplement, the Galaxy-class uses multi-warp field-generating propulsion system which was the next evolution to "transwarp".

Maybe you could do a battle of Bajor from Sacrifice of Angels and you hypothesis on why there are so many Galaxy-class ships in the battle.

1:30 FASA (once again) had a really good explanation for the discrepancies. In TOS and TMP eras, Warp was measured in a different way. By the time of TNG, warp measurements were redefined to fit a 10 digit system. In other words, they went from English rule to the Metric system. 2:35 I still wish you did a detailed overview of the K’tinga in regards to it’s true size (as the lights on the pod and the pod cap are windows/floor levels, and there is an observation deck above the shuttle bay). 8:30 there is a paperback novel that explained the Doomsday Machine was created as a Borg killer. It was also revealed that Warp 10 was an impossibility: the closer you reached it, the more anomalies would happen until you were stuck in a causation loop, stuck in infinity. 10:30 I would love to see a future video getting closer to the Excelsior and showing the weapon arcs, as well as the shuttle bay (and whatever the blue area is on the rear lower hull).

@mrsamaritan6881

Ай бұрын

I wouldn't go by thing in that paperback novel. According to it, the Preservers built the Doomsday Machine just outside the galaxy. Which not only cheapens the Doomsday Machine and the idea there could be more wandering the universe outside of the Milky Way. But the idea that the Preservers, who preserve planets, built a planet-killer to fight the Borg, who famously rarely use planets, instead spending most of their time on their cube ships, is such a colossally stupid idea. The whole thing comes off as J.J Abrams level bad fan fiction writing.

@sabrewolf4129

Ай бұрын

That blue lit thing down below is just another shuttle bay, even the model shows the doors down there.

Its confusing, but its like this Federation transwarp allows you to go directly to any warp factor, previously you had to go through the factors and nest warp fields. Think TOS with Sulu saying warp 1, warp 2, warp 3... VS TNG where they can engage directly to warp 9. Only when they get to very high warp factors do they need to nest warp fields.

Ahh...the Transwarp question. Gather around childrens, and I will tell you about a time before "everything" was on the Internet. Ship blueprints/schematics in the before times, was only available in printed books, packets, and sets. The USS Excelsior set was professionally produced and packaged, multiple folded sheets in a plastic pouch with a snap flap. They described the ship as a: Space Control Ship(SCS). This was when little was known about the ship at all. A lead ship to coordinate a entire sector. I do not know if this was its original intention or evolved into this role. Or recatagorized altogether. I did have a theory that the Excelsior was over-designed, being a prototype. It was never directly stated that the Transwarp system did not work, all we saw Is that it didn't work due to Scotty's sabotage. I suspect Transwarp performance was not a huge jump as hoped but, a performance increase never the less. A place to improve performance more over time. A way to get the most out of the Warp Propulsion System. Until other methods arrive.

How many geeked out when ST-III came out and went right to their latest issue of "Starlog" magazine and saw the "official" Excelsior blueprints for sale? I still have mine. They were very detailed orthographic drawings of something called an "Ingram Class Space Control Ship." They were very cool, but looked nothing like what we saw on screen. Indeed, they were more in line with the "standard" ship design with many of the same elements of the refit Enterprise, just scaled up in size by about 1/3. There was some text outlining the history of the need for such a ship, but no explanation as to the obvious deviation from the design of the actual studio model. I suspect there was some proprietary, or copyright issues with Paramount studios at the time.

@markplott4820

Ай бұрын

I like JAKILL's Excelsior variants and other Starships.

@Thin447Line

Ай бұрын

Follow up from my last...I went back and looked at the "Ingram" plans. Indeed, it does include a blurb trying to explain the differences. Something along the lines of "...after an initial shakedown cruise it was determined that major re-design was necessary on the primary and secondary hulls." Nice way of saying, "We were forced to make significant changes in order to avoid copyright violations with Paramount Pictures." Still, the Ingram Class is cool in its own way and I'd love to see a good 3D model of it.