I appreciate the detailed safety investigation.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I wanted to do my best to provide a reasonable summary without being biased in either way.

@JaenEngineering

8 ай бұрын

Absolutely. So many other channels say little more that "it's dangerous, don't try this at home" or "wear appropriate PPE" but that just feels more like boiler plate litigation mitigation than an anything else. This actually forces you to pay a little more attention.

@sazafrass

8 ай бұрын

Absolutely. Being an idiot myself, seeing the methodology rather than "don't if stupid" has greatly extended my statistical life span. You've saved my life @projectsinflight

@orbatos

8 ай бұрын

​@@JaenEngineeringAny time they don't at least refer to the MSDS is a red flag.

@custos3249

8 ай бұрын

Agreed. Trying to get info from actual chemists I know, it's always "NOPENOPENOPENOPE!" Best way to ensure someone walks into something blind is to tell them not to and stop there as if you've done something of value. The only right thing to do can be gleaned from the phrase, "If you're going to do something stupid, best be smart about it." Never assume refusing to provide information will stop someone.

The safety intro for this video alone was worth the watch. It might be more fun to go on about how dangerous this stuff is, but a sane and careful evaluation of the risks involved is far more useful. That just got you a subscribe.

You showed the metal layer directly contacting the silicon in that diagram, but this is generally not done in practice with the two most common metal layers, aluminum and copper. Aluminum in contact with silicon forms spikes into the transistor that damage it, and copper will aggressively dissolve into silicon and disrupt the effects of dopant highly erratically. Typically, there is a tungsten plug in the oxide hole that the metal layer makes contact with, to act as a condom to prevent these problems. There are some metals that can directly contact silicon without issues, like Cobalt, Nickel, Tungsten, and Ruthenium, if I remember right. Current research into sub-2nm process nodes is leaning towards replacing the copper layers with cobalt or ruthenium, because the structures needed to keep copper from touching the silicon takes up too much space at those scales, leaving less room for actual copper conductor, and thus causing high resistive losses due to the conductors being so narrow.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Gotta keep the diagrams simple!

@christopherleubner6633

8 ай бұрын

They usually use a silicon nitride buffer layer under the aluminum or copper via layer.

@Jan-zw2se

8 ай бұрын

You should be able to use aluminium but keep the point small or divide into multiple as spikes become a problem with big size

@ThantiK

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight -- I would much rather they be correct than simple. Anyone interested in this stuff is going to be probably above average in ability to comprehend this stuff, so please give us more detail rather than less.

@BioTechproject27

8 ай бұрын

@@ThantiK Exactly. It's better to stay to the truth of current research, rather than horribly simplify. At the very least things should be briefly mentioned so that anyone interested can dig deeper. That's why I hated school. They always dumbed everything down, often to the point that it's inaccurate, when the real world is so much more complex and exciting!!!

Excellent video. I'm working in the semiconductor industry, and we have literal pipes running along the ceiling for transporting highly concentrated HF. This stuff is no joke and I appreciate that you are taking it seriously. Apart from that, I suspect that the armour etch will be difficult to use with a resist mask, unless you manage to get the resist very mechanically stable. If you have to scrub it off, you will probably damage the resist in the process. I'd try to dilute it and check if you can clean it off easier. It will also make the etch rate easier to handle. If you're going for a CMOS platform, you'll never need more than maybe 300 - 500 nm of oxide, and there's really no point in chewing through that within a minute, especially if the time you need to rinse it off is not perfectly controlled. It will result in inconsistent etches, especially when it comes to underetching. Getting the etch duration to something like 5 minutes should be the sweet spot between wait time and the effect of handling uncertainties. I'm excited to see how you are going to tackle doping and lithography :D

@superdupergrover9857

8 ай бұрын

Do you know what the pipes are made out of? The shear size and length of the pipe over such a large, expensive and easily disrupted facility makes for interesting choice parameters.

@commander-tomalak

8 ай бұрын

@@superdupergrover9857 It's actually a hose within a pipe (double walled for safety, including sensors in the outer shell). And bog standard plastic is perfectly resistant to HF, so no issues here. That thing is also completely routed indoors high enough that you wouldn't get close to it by accident, so nothing about it is easily disrupted unless someone with access to the area would do so on purpose.

@superdupergrover9857

8 ай бұрын

@@commander-tomalak The best solutions are always the boring and obvious ones. Not always true, but true more often than i ever expect. I knew a lot of plastics are resistant to HF and other plastics, I just figured that long term, not stagnant flow would have some long term degradation effect. Thanks for the reply, i really appreciate it.

Wow. When I saw your oven built video, my thought was immediately "but he isn't going to use HF in his shed, is he?". I personally successfully avoided working with the stuff so far, but your careful considerations at least took away some of the horror I feel for the stuff. Good job and keep being careful!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah HF was the main reason I haven't done this until now. I decided that as long as I understand the risks and make informed choices then it's reasonable to move forward

It is really cool to see someone tackling silicon circuit production from the ground up.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I'm super happy so many people are along for the ride :)

@GerinoMorn

8 ай бұрын

Will come useful when we have to rebuild the civilisation

That was a great safety review. One dark secret of the car wash world is that operators were spiking their detergent mixes with HF to cut dirt, though the occasional customer windshield might be etched. Some fell back to ammonium bifluoride, but even that has some history of nasty industrial health impacts.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah- I saw some aluminum wheel cleaner that was 15% HF! Sold by the gallon! Crazy...

may the algorithm guide more attention to your impressive work.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I need to make an altar to the youtube algorithm ;) What do I sacrifice?

@yagobueno2785

8 ай бұрын

​@@projectsinflighta Z80 chip for the KZread Algorithm

Armor Etch might need to be diluted to control the etch rate, or perhaps mixed with a surfactant so it doesn't glue itself to the wafer

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I suspect they make it adhere so strongly so that it won't run off vertical surfaces

@T3sl4

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, and dilution may let the BaSO4 settle out, leaving a clearer, easier to use solution.

@PendragonDaGreat

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight Very likely. My mom uses it to etch glassware and stuff like that. You can get blank cups from basically anywhere and then use something like a cricut (or other cutter) to cut out a vinyl mask. Allows you to make cool commemorative pieces for birthday gifts or the like super fast.

I like the idea of having different HF sources for different jobs. The armour etch will be good for bulk oxide removal when making oxide masks and the rust remover will be great for whe you need a controlled oxide thickness for FET gate insulators.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, I definitely expect the rust remover will be good for that!

@setoman1

8 ай бұрын

I like starting with 40% HF and diluting it down to any concentration the job requires.

@RoyaltyInTraining.

8 ай бұрын

@@setoman1 I think it is clear from the video that 40% HF is impossible to obtain for most people

@__lasevix_

8 ай бұрын

​@@RoyaltyInTraining.And even more impossible to handle without shortening your lifespan by a few years

@setoman1

8 ай бұрын

@@RoyaltyInTraining. 40% HF is easy to get for an average Joe, if you ask smaller chemical suppliers. It also pops up on eBay every so often.

Wow, you were very thorough about the danger of working with HF! You very easily could've just made a video etching the silicon with it and just included one sentence "I'm wearing gear because it's super dangerous" and left it at that, but you took the time to illustrate how, why, and how much that HF acid is dangerous. I love to see it! :)

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks- i am glad you appreciated it! I was worried i'd get a thousand comments of "Boring" lol

@pinlap3875

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight I've rarely seen analysis of the individual risks like that outside of industry, you've done a service just by demonstrating the process, let alone enumerating the actual HF risk outside of "nope". I learned a lot. Thank you for taking the risk.

Great explanation and a nice deep dive into safety. If you really want multiple concentrations of HF, I think the best and simplest option is to just bite the bullet, buy a small amount of high concentration(20-30%) solution, and then carefully perform a single dilution operation to the concentration you want. One benefit of a fully liquid etch that you didn't cover is that you get a very uniform result - pastes and such tend to etch slightly less evenly. I'd probably stick to the rust remover, or would make my own solution that's maybe 2-3x more concentrated(5-8%). After all, waiting a few minutes for a slow and controlled etch is better than having to deal with paste removal and extra wafer cleaning.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I don't currently have a safe space to use 30% HF so I'll stick with the weak stuff for now

@frankgarcia8378

6 ай бұрын

I think this is a rare instance where buying the concentrated chemical and diluting it down is actually more expensive. looking online, I was able to find 32oz (946ml) of whinks for ~$15, and the same amount of 49% HF for $135. A little math, and you find that whinks charges $1.26 / ml HF, whereas the concentrated chemical costs $3.43/ml. I think the increased price is mostly due to low volume production (you would probably be right, on an industrial scale), but for small scale consumer items, it's actually cheaper to buy dilute!

From memory the mix in the armour etch is a multi-stage process, one part "lifts" and another "captures" but it was a long time ago that I looked at it. But it may explain how much faster it was than the 10% gel. I wonder how you'd go diluting it some to make it more of a liquid than a paste. As it is it looks like it'll be hard to apply and remove easily and at small feature sizes having it creep under your mask may become an issue so timely removal is probably going to be desired. Honestly don't worry about the youtube comments section, you could be using pure water and you'd get people saying "if it's too pure you'll die if you drink it" and 4 people saying they knew somebody who drank water and they died.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Everyone I know who's died drank water though. COINCIDENCE?!?

I had no idea commercially available HF sources were this good. It kinda gives me some hope back for DIY microchip fabrication. One nasty blocker that remains is obtaining a usable photoresist. Idk if the stuff for etching PCBs and metals works for this application. Edit: Apparently Kontakt Chemie sells a novolac-based resist that can withstand HF and other "strong acidic etching products". It's called Positiv 20. Maybe it's an option if you can get enough liquid out of the spray can and thin it down for spin-coating.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah... Photoresist is REALLY Hard to find these days. Makes me sad. If you have any links for ANY usable photoresists that arent the dry film please let me know. Feel free to email me at my gmail (projectsinflight) if you have any info.

When we used Silane as a hypergolic igniter for rocket engines at RotRock, I had the unenviable task of cleaning the resulting fused silica slag out of the combustion chambers and injectors. I had experience with HF in college semiconductor lab, so I selected ammonium bifluoride as a FAR less hazardous etchant. It did a great job without scaring the hell out of me and did not require such a high level of PPE for protection. That was more than 20 years ago and I don't recall the concentration of the premixed fluid but it was probably similar to the armor etch. Gloves and goggles were all I needed.

I would kind of like a similar video for other dangerous chemicals. Especially ones easily sourced from box stores. Shows how important ppe is.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I'll do one for sulferic acid + peroxide soon

man your quality and research is top notch. i really appreciate how serious you take the topic of handling HF and actually deep dive the concerns and dangers. 10/10 video, great job

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thank you! I was really nervous I was gonna get eaten alive for posting this video, and it makes me happy that you are satisfied with it :)

Just found your channel last night and this was at the top of my reccomended this morning. Very happy :) Keep doing what you're doing! You're growing so fast!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! It's really motivating that people are so interested in this work!

You are doing great My opinion is to test the armor etch for volatility and check if the reation in the etchent causes hf vapor to determine the danger of the product And if you can accurately calculate the time of the rust remover you could probably reuse the old silicon wafers which you failed to oxidate to a certain nano meter

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, that's a good idea for sure. I'll take a look

@goldencpu3559

8 ай бұрын

seeing the armor etch spot size vs the actual etch indicates there was definitely a cloud of vapor. was really neat to see 8n the video.

@BrilliantDesignOnline

8 ай бұрын

A suggestion: give the Armor Etch MFR a phone call and discuss issues with them, since they are probably the most knowledgeable.

Doing gods work. This series has done heaps for the home semiconductor hobby already. I think the syringe might be good for spin coating when you are making an entire IC. The armor etch might be great if you can dilute it to get it to flow and maybe slow it down a bit for more control. The rust remover seems like the easiest to use for the home though. In a DIY setting speed is less important than result. Trying to make precise layer thicknesses for MEMS structures will be awesome when you know you have a high safety margin in a product that is easy to remove as well. Great work. I am considering creating an online community to advance this hobby with equipment build guides + kits, supplies and guides/tutorials.

@tissuepaper9962

8 ай бұрын

don't even talk about spin-coating HF. that's a bad, bad idea, and there's no reason to do it in the first place. just dunk your wafers in the liquid etchant.

I really liked the extended investigation of HF safety, pretty much every other video I've seen has done little more than say "don't try this at home" or "HF is very dangerous" and definitely doesn't bring up the MSDS. Armor Etch definitely sounds rather sketchy, I'd like to see some more experiments around its strength and behavior.

I used to work with HF a lot doing microwave extractions of coal ash and marine sediment for ICP analysis. We used boric acid solution to neutralise it, always keeping a full 10L tank of the stuff. I recommend you doing the same for the cleanup.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Oh interesting- I have boric acid on hand already too. I'll look into this

There's a weird disconnect between how dangerous things are and how dangerous people think they are, when I was reading through the medical treatment for HF their notes for exposure to dilute HF was that the first aid treatment was the same as what a medical professional would do (calcium gluconate), and that if it was from dilute HF and applied by someone knowledgeable quickly further treatment may not be required. Tbh it seems like with concentrations as low as the rust remover the higher risk would be from repeated small exposures adding up to flourosis over time rather than rather than anything acute, excepting cases of ingestion I guess. You might want to validate the concentrations of HF by seeing how much sodium carbonate is needed to neutralize the HF though

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, I really want to test the concentration of each but I'm having difficulty finding an appropriate method. Titration seems like it's not gonna work.. Any ideas?

@T3sl4

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight Gravimetric would be easy enough (precipitate it all as CaF2 or the like?), if maybe not the most accurate (particularly at low concentrations where solubility matters, and, recovery of small amounts of solid, and purity thereof, is tricky). I don't know of an indicator offhand unfortunately.

@NotToast859

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight I'm not a chemist so not sure, but what's the issue with doing a titration?

Very excellent safety outline. Thank you for showing each of the potential etchants as well.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I did my best

I remember looking up HF years back and coming across an amazon review of armor etch where some hobbyist was using their bare fingers to smear the cream on glass, claiming it wasn't an issue... Always wondered what became of that person. Apparently warning labels aren't good enough.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

aaAAAAaaaaaAAAAAaaaaaaAAAAaaaa RIP

Fantastic to see this. Love how much detail you went into on the hazards. I used HF in geochemistry research for solid rock digestions, as well as having it as a product from some other isotope related purification processes. Ended up using an ammonium bifluoride method as a replacement in order to make sample prep and handling easier but it was still as PITA for weighing since in the raw it comes in a sticky kind of crystalline form. When learning the methods we would usually be wearing heavier thicker gloves (like what you have in the video), plus rubber aprons, and face shield (in a hood, in a clean room no less), once we were more familiar it was always double gloved, in clean room suit, plus face shield.

I really like how much you emphasize safety with HF I worked at a place for 4 years that I had handled this stuff all the time. We made small metal parts for medical devices and I cleaned them and that often involved HF somewhere in the clean line. Plus it was in a ultra sonic that sits at 170F. The strongest we had was 3% but even that would stink up the room a bit even with several massive fume hoods

Dude, I cannot express to you strongly enough how much I would love a series focused on practical and accurate safety information. The "cover your ass" tendency of every company to over label is creating a dangerous situation where there is too much noise to the signal. If they are always yelling, what do you do when you really need to yell?

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah I agree. I would love to make a series like this when I feel competent enough to do a really deep dive into more on the subject.

Wow, you can really see the fumes from those stronger (Porcelain Etch and Armor Etch) mixes! Not so much directly, but the halo effect while etching! I wonder how quickly etch rate increases versus vapor emission. If reaction rate accelerates quicker, it might be worthwhile to use a lower concentration at higher temperature. This does need to be balanced for the overall process, of course: a heater is more steps, more equipment, more process, so it does increase the "attack surface" of the procedure's overall safety. On the other hand, it's also another process variable, simultaneously a liability (one more thing to keep track of) and an advantage (a parameter to optimize, and a means of controlling what is otherwise potentially-poorly-controlled ambient temperature plus handling (body heat)).

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

For now i'm just gonna resort to waiting longer but i'm in the market for a good fume-extraction solution for further testing!

excited for the progression of this series! amazing process i woudlve never known about

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I'm excited for the next video

Exceptional video, you're doing wonderful work! I dug the dive into hf safety. I remember my high school chem teacher talking about the stuff. Apparently she once spilled literally a drop onto her hand, which immediately ate thru her glove before absorbing into her skin. It damaged the bone and she talked about getting random pains in it despite the accident being decades ago

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah... HF is very good at penetrating gloves unfortunately

I like how you tell additional details about this process. Thanks you.

In the past I was peripherally involved with a palynologist and one place they get pollen from (actually its outer wall called the exine) is by coring a lake bed. So, Fun Fact, HF is used in processing the samples to dissolve the sand (silicon dioxide) and leave the exine intact for later examination under a microscope. It's tough stuff. I have been enjoying your videos and appreciate the thorough way you are conducting your calibration experiments.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate that people aren't too bored by constant calibrations lol

Loving this series. Very interesting and informative

Ok, this fast new video was unexpected ahhaahah

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I really pushed myself to get this one out today lol

@bruno_kid_

8 ай бұрын

Really appreciated, I will follow this journey 🎉 congratz and stay safe o/

@soubs242

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight your work is noticed!

This is one of my new most liked channels! Keep up the great work!

Dude - this is top tier. I am very excited to see where this goes. A well earned sub.

I remember chemical experiments at school using HF. My buddy and myself clumsily spilled some on the floor. When trying to wipe it off, the sponge instantly disappeared and left a green fuming goo behind. Good memories haha

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

You sure that wasn't sulferic? If that had been concentrated HF I feel like you'd have been dead

Best video on the subject I could find! Congrats!

Love the quality of your content. And at that speed... this is so amazing. I'm loocking foreward to see u making working transistors and more complex chip geometry

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I sure hope to get to devices soon! I've got three more videos on process stuff first

Thanks! Outstanding video. Good trade-off between complexity and understandability. Can't wait for the next one.

Can't thanks you enough for the detailed safety section of the video, which was a great warning for me. As soon as I saw those charts and heard your explanations, I stopped the video, got up and moved all the etching liquids that I have to the outdoors. Probably, as also @sazafrass said, you've probably saved many lives just with that part of the video, so thank you again.

I love your videos, your channel is criminally underrated

thank you for such a detailed and well-presented safety presentation, it is very much appreciated

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I am glad people didn't find it too boring ;)

I think you went above and beyond with the chemical safety education. Great video and im loving the progress you are making with this series of videos.

@projectsinflight

7 ай бұрын

Thanks, I was really worried about making this video because the prevailing opinion online seemed to be "HF = DEAD" and I didn't want people to think I was gonna die lol

In my opinion the best glass etchant on the consumer market is Etch Bath. It’s made by the same company as Armour Etch but it’s a liquid, not a cream, and it’s quite a bit stronger.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I was going to include that but they didn't have an SDS on it and they wouldn't respond to my emails :(

This was very useful and interesting. Since I have begun some semiconductor DIY work, it has always been the most perplexing area is etching with HF. Your vid has helped to further my understanding of doing this process.

Yes, an upload, made my Saturday night!!

Can't wait to see your next video, I've greatly enjoyed the journey starting at the tube furnace

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! Glad to have you aboard! Next stop- photolithography

I don't know why youtube recommended your channel but I'm really glad it did. Very interesting and great quality content.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thank you! I try very hard to explain this stuff well

Really excellent video! Thanks for the effort that went into researching and creating it.

I really like the idea of being able to make semiconductor devices at home lab. I wish you much success with it.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I'm determined!

Your channel gets better with every video.

I love learning stuff that isn't directly related to what i study, makes me exited about trying new things and allows me to implement them on what i do. Thank you soooo much for this free knowledge and education. Thank you!

@projectsinflight

4 ай бұрын

you are very welcome :)

Back in the school days I asked a chemistry teacher to show the HF reaction with the glass. She told me this is not possible, but didn't explained why. Thanks for excellent explanation!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

It's also not the most interesting reaction. It just sits there for a while and you remove it. Not the kind of flashy stuff that keeps the interests of distractible high school students

I am totally thankful that I watched your very educational video. You are so smart.

This is so sick, can’t wait for the next video!

This was a good explanation about HF hazards. I use 50% HF in my lab fairly often. It is definitely scary stuff, but it can be used safely when the right PPE and procedures are followed. Nice video.

It's absolutely amazing that a non certified professional can still achieve the results but their efforts. The scale of the development might be different but it will not be incomprehensible. Your uploads have surely boosted my confidence in a fresh start for me in doing what could be peaceful for me. All the best.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Glad to be of service :)

Great video! Loved the safety briefing, stay safe! I feel like the armour etch should be illegal though? It really looks like the manufacturer is trying to bypass some kind of regulation.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I want to do a follow-up where i measure the strength of armour etch

When @Jeriellsworth told me she wanted to make transistors at home, some 20 years ago, she complained that no one would sell her HF - but then she found Whink at the grocery store and made some NMOS devices in her kitchen. Her videos are on KZread.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah- i've seen a couple of her videos on the subject. I think she also used armor etch as well

I appreciate the detailed safety investigation.. I appreciate the detailed safety investigation..

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thank you so much!

Amazing videos, please keep doing more this is some of the best content on KZread on the subject

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thank you- that really means a lot to me :)

This channel is solid gold.

I would highly recommend that you ad a strong dye to each of the products to see any remains. Like whats in the porcelain etch.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I would consider it if I could figure out what dye they used. I do want to minimize other contaminants though since silicon fabrication is sensitive to impurities

Another great video. Thank you so much. Also I hope this comment will help the algorithm bring your channel up to other DIY enthusiasts.

Amazing video, Great explanations and animations.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I spent a lot of time on that slideshow lol

Great stuff. Something you will have to check is if the extra chemicals in armor etch play nice with your photoresist.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah that's the next video!

That's the kind of content to be recommended to me after passing the exam on advanced IC fabrication technologies!

Liked and subscribed, Im anxious to see where this is leading. Well put together content sir!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate the encouragement!

I'm a miserly person, so seeing the effectiveness of the cheap Armour Etch was really satisfying

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Haha I know right. I hate seeing super expensive lab chemicals vs cheap stuff like that. That being said, usually what you pay for is purity above all else

really excited to see where this goes. i've always wondered how hard it would be to make the (IGBT?) transistors used in EV drive units; I'd imagine that their structure size wouldn't be as much of a performance limiter compared to homemade ASICs, but I've always given up the task when hearing the horror stories about HF (admittedly most at industrial scales)

Great video, can't wait till the next. Made sure to subscribe

Wow, very knowledgable! 👍

You're doing a great job there man it's really nice to see you share all this valuable knowledge, I guess you occupy a honor position along with Jery and Sam in making semiconductors at home, I'm looking forward for your next videos, thanks!

This is truly AMAZING!

another step completed! Can't wait for the next one

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I think I'm gonna do photolithography next!

@Djambo57

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight that's awesome. You really created something special here. I know how much work it must have been to create these few videos but it's amazing to see how quickly you're growing.

Excellent video. 100% in every part.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thank you so much. It means a lot to me that people are supportive :)

A laser-activated etchant like the ones for metal could help with the patterning step. Like something that would prevent the armor etch from doing its thing until that and only that ingredient gets burned off, localized.

The legend is back!!

excelent vieos man very excited to see the next one

Another great video! Subbed.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Thanks!

This video is fascinating, and HF is terrifying. As en electrical engineer, I feel more at home with ion beam etching, cause I can sort of figure out the physics of the device, but chemistry is beyond me. I kinda wish somebody made an equally involved video explaining the safety concerns of ion guns. The dangerous parts are probably the beam itself (don't stick your hand in there), the possibility of accidental X-ray production, high vacuum implosion, and also electrocution due to high voltage.

@AlexanderBurgers

8 ай бұрын

HF is definitely the microwave oven transformer of chemicals.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

The dangers you listed are all valid. There is one more I can think of: When you do reactive ion etching you often add additional chemicals to the chamber to achieve better results. Most of these chemicals are pretty dangerous, either because they are toxic or pyrophoric (burn on contact with air). That being said, it's still something I'd like to try at some point because it's a super valuable tool

glad you made the video and didn't poison yourself!

Great job dude!

@projectsinflight

7 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Linux users after their cpu isn't open source

@AlanTwoRings

8 ай бұрын

This, but unironically.

I found your show informative, not that I've have a need for the acid it's nice to have a better idea of what to expect if you should ever have to deal with it.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, in my experience the things that hurt you are the dangers you *aren't* aware of

I am very glad he did not skimp on revealing the dangers with using HF and I just wanted to reiterate the warning about Hydroflouric acid or HF... If it just covers 25 square inches of skin, (basically the surface area of your hand flat on a table) without immediate treatment it can and likely *WILL* cost you that limb... It burns down to the bone and rapidly travels up the calcium in your bones. Wear the proper gloves, face shield, apron and be very careful while using it!!! I know two people who had to have an amputation of the next higher joint to save them from death at around 40% concentration. It can be safe enough if handled carefully at the below 10% concentrations.

Really good video. I know HF from metalworking as a stainless steel etchant in a mixture with other acids. It is used to grow a passivation layer on welded stainless steel parts.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

What strength did you use?

@allesklarklaus147

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight From the MSDS the product contains 5-10% HF and 5-10% nitric acid and it was a gel thing and not a liquid. I believe there are more dangerous products for the same purpose but it always scared me a bit. In some shops they have like 1000 Litre tanks of a similar HF-containing liquid used to submerge parts.

Awesome vid and experiments! I’d probably just use the Wisk Rust Remover and let it sit for Long enough - eg. 30-60min to remove 500nm of oxide. The safety benefits seem worth it to be more patient. Love the safety discussion and details, incredibly valuable. Thanks for the excellent explanations and deep-dive.

@DeminJanu

8 ай бұрын

Safety benefits AND easy water rinse only. Such great info, I’ll plan to use this in upcoming educational activities.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah TBH the ease of cleanup makes the rust remover a really convenient choice

I am not a professional chemist, however I do have a degree in chemistry (BS) and I can appreciate the dedication to safety. However this chemical (HF) is on a short list of chemicals that I will not work with given a choice. HF is new degrees of nasty and toxic. This stuff can eat your glassware, burn your skin even with most common gloves, kill you, and cause no end of issues. If you do plan on using HF for your etching I would recommend getting gloves that are resistant to HF concentrations up to 30% or using tools to handle the containers of HF at a distance. Also, you might want to consider having a stock of a neutralizing agent nearby in case of any spills. Now you might already have this and just didn't state it, but if you don't I would highly advise you have one on hand. All that said, very nice video! I have always been curious about the process of manufacturing of silicone devices and I will be watching with interest going forwards. I just found your channel and you have earned a sub!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

I appreciate that you took the time to write this. I don't have any real chemistry education (other than a couple college lab classes) so I am always looking for info from others who are knowledgable :) I have a pair of 14mil butyl gloves for handling HF and I am looking for some better nitrile disposable gloves as well. For neutralizing I am currently using sodium carbonate, but i'm looking for something better. I think the main thing that I should improve on is wearing better quality nitrile gloves and keeping the HF inside other containers. I feel like the main liklihood of injury at the current time would be some kind of mistake where I didn't notice a spill, so I'm looking for an indicator solution that works for HF- in case you have any ideas. Feel free to email me at my gmail as well- ProjectsInFlight- same as the channel name! It's true that HF isn't a chemical to be taken lightly and I'm doing my best to minimize the risks. I think in the future I'll do a more comprehensive video on PPE.

@solvarianforesthaven58

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight The Butyl gloves will work to if you are very careful, but I would not rely on them solely. The recommend gloves for handling HF by OSHA is Neoprene gloves. Neoprene can resist HF up to 48% concentration and are not super expensive (still pricey though), Nitrile can work if they are thick enough, but are not the top recommended gloves by OSHA. Double gloving is always recommended as well. If you do go with Nitrile, get the black Nitrile gloves as they are thicker seeing how they are designed for industrial applications. Or use your Butyl gloves with a Nitrile glove as a liner or inner glove. Your neutralizing agent is fine, in fact when I was in university we used a saturated solution of sodium bicarbonate as our neutralizing agent. I'm glad you have that on hand for a just in case situation :) and having something like kitty litter (cheapest one) to soak up the neutralized spill. For the HF indicator, any pH indicator will work and if you are concerned about vapors of HF, hang some kind of indicator strip(s) in your hood. But these will only let you know if there are fumes, not what consecration the fumes are at. I know there are dedicated meters for measuring HF fumes, but these tend to be extremely expensive and hard to get. So hanging strips at regular intervals on the side of your hood should be fine. But if your hood is in good working order and is removing the fumes there should be nothing to worry about (test your hood using a blown out candle and see if the smoke is pulled away). And keeping the HF containers inside of another container is a good idea to contain any spills, which we all say will never happen but always seems to at the least convenient time.

Great work thank you

Awesome followup video! I would argue that the lesser concentrations provide a safer and more forgiving option for pursuing this. Whereas the others seem to me like they would be less forgiving and force you to be quick, which would lead to mistakes and possibly an accident. Couple that with the dangers of the higher concentrations and it would seem the best option, at least in my view, is the least concentrated and to take more time. Avoiding accidents, working slower and more methodically means less wasted material from hurried batches. All pluses in my book. I look forward to the upcoming videos! Also, the needle applicator seems like a glove puncture hazard to me, even if negligible.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Fortunately the needle on the applicator is smooth and not sharp like hypodermic needles

Quick side note, HF is a weak acid, not a strong acid. This of course doesn't make it any easier to work with or healthier. Great video!

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

Yeah- I feel like the whole pKa thing is so misleading that i didn't bother calling it a weak acid

@hamjudo

8 ай бұрын

I phrase it this way: "HF is an incredibly toxic chemical, that is weakly acidic."

Great stuff keep it up

Your detailed investigation shows your concern and careful consideration. Note that hydrofluoric acid or ammonium bifluoride reacts with glass to produce toxic byproducts, H2SiF6 and SiF4, respectively. Both the acid and the byproducts of glass etching are toxic and must be avoided from inhaling.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

This is true, but in my case the amount of glass that is being removed is so small that the silicon byproducts should be in such tiny quantities as to be irrelevant. Hopefully...

Verrrry nice!

I was wondering how sensitive the etching rate is to temperature. Heating up rust remover or any HF-containing chemical might be (very) ill-advised, though. Again thx for this, very interesting to follow along.

@projectsinflight

8 ай бұрын

The etch rate will increase dramatically with temperature, but so will the vapor pressure and fuming.

@Palerider1942

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight in that case then would the opposite be true? if you wanted to use the armor etch in a more controlled manner could you chill it to reduce its speed? perhaps to a point where it is comparable to the Dental stuff without the expense?

@auxiliusm7614

8 ай бұрын

@@projectsinflight Expected, well, considering the designs won't necessitate too many etchings, the current rates should be fine. Do you already have an approximate goal in mind design-wise, and if so, how many deposition and etch steps do you expect?

Very nice indeed!

Thanks for the video👉👈😳