Just a FYI ARM processors are also RISC based. The main arguments for RISC-V over ARM is RISC-V's open source license.

@TechnicallyUnsure

2 ай бұрын

Yes, I know. That's why in video I say "check out history of ARM and RISC" etc. The main difference is RISC-V is an open-source, whereas ARM is a proprietary

@DevEncryptionNull

2 ай бұрын

@@TechnicallyUnsure Must have missed that... :|

@UliTroyo

Ай бұрын

Also hipster hype, which I’m down for.

@r0galik

Ай бұрын

x86 is also technically a RISC architecture...

@zephsmith3499

Ай бұрын

@@r0galik No, x86 is what used to be called "CISC" for Complex Instruction Set Computing" and is contrasted with RISC architectures. The instruction set has become very expanded indeed today.

For anyone wondering about how the NPU performance of the Milk V compares: The Milk V does 0,5 TOPS INT8. An nvidia 2080 ti does 228 TOPS INT8. The Google Coral micro does 4.0 TOPS. The OrangePi 5 has 6 TOPS.

@fredrikbergquist5734

Ай бұрын

How does it compare to RP2040/rpi pico that has two ARM cores? It can easily be overclocked 2x. Another interesting comparison would be to rpi 2/3/4.

@Grimmwoldds

Ай бұрын

@@fredrikbergquist5734 Irrelevant. That wouldn't be apples to oranges, that would be whales to helicopters. The luckfox NPUs are the same as the Milk-V ones(.5-1 TOPS with the current crop of tiny Chinese RISC-V devices). If you only have 256 MB of memory, you don't need 228 TOPS(1 pass on a neural network takes memory bandwidth to feed the core which processes. The amount of work to apply the bandwidth and processing power to increases with the size of the model). And you definitely don't care about RPi 2/3/4 which run everything on a CPU core. You also don't care about a coral, because it's a peripheral for older/incapable machines, not a part of a gumstick SBC.

@fredrikbergquist5734

Ай бұрын

@@Grimmwoldds isn’t comparing Nvidia to MilkV like comparing Volkswagon to Ferrari? There must be processors that are closer to MilkV.

@Grimmwoldds

Ай бұрын

@@fredrikbergquist5734 Yes, there are quite a few(why I singled out the luckfox using ARM rockchips in the 64-256 MB RAM range). These NPUs are not a separate chip. They are a section of the CPU die. They provide just enough neural net processing power to do vision/categorization. So much like your cel phone(which do things like camera stabilization and noise filtering), these little gumsticks can inherently process video their camera produces through small neural nets to say "I see a person" or "this is a banana". Doesn't matter if they had 6 TOPS. They aren't going to be running anything that needs 6 TOPS. They don't have enough memory to do so, and you're going it wrong if you think llama 13B @ 16 bpw needs to run on a SBC the size of a stick of gum that's likely to end up in a hobbyist project with a screen, some buttons, and maybe a tiny GPIO board(sensor, audio board, etc) of some sort and some external ports. So in closing, the NPU is largely irrelevant except that it has one and it's sufficient for the system it's a part of. There is no comparison, it's not useful when evaluation is pass/fail.

@TheSulross

Ай бұрын

the question though, is it sufficient to do something useful?

Super stoked to see more RISC-V stuff coming out. The future is here! 🚀

As a reality check, this "$10" device (512MB, 8GB emmc) is €30.90 shipped to my country. I am unsure whether import taxes are extra - another 20%. For less than that I can buy a pi zero 2w, delivered in a couple of days and fully documented.

@dl8cy

2 ай бұрын

So true ... I confirm your check (Germany)

@TechnicallyUnsure

2 ай бұрын

You are right, it's not "there" yet, but hopefully soon we will have some real competitive boards with RISC-V

@nikthefix8918

Ай бұрын

Dell Wyse 3040 thin client Atom is 2GB Ram, 8GB EMMC on ebay in large numbers for 20 euros shipped. Maybe you have to supply a 5v PSU. Worth considering if you need x86. Runs ubuntu server with CasaOS really well.

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

@@nikthefix8918 Thanks for the tip, I'm definitely going to check it out!

@nikthefix8918

Ай бұрын

@@TechnicallyUnsure There are similarly priced offerings from HP with more RAM and even expandable storage. But I think the Thin Client ranges from both manufacturers are largely discontinued so it's a case of grab them while you can - which implies that it's not sustainable but there's so much ex lease gear out there it'll probably be a niche market for a long time. Easier to get than a Pi4 and with better performance in my experience. They're all fanless and have TDP of somewhere around 15W on the outside.

I think we all are a bit tired of these claims of cheap devboards that end up costing $50 and out of supply.

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

I hear you, but this one seems to be $9.99 and I'm not sure about shipping costs, I paid the premium for shipping as I wanted to get my hands on it ASAP, but just FYI, I bought it from here arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s

@newmonengineering

Ай бұрын

I bought a few of the other model they had 6 months ago and if you buy directly from milkv they are very cheap. I spent about 60$ for 5 boards. It's nice they now have a wifi module

@fredrikbergquist5734

Ай бұрын

@@newmonengineering How do you program them, is it with Arduino IDE or MS VS? Or do you run Linux and do it from a console?

@newmonengineering

Ай бұрын

@@fredrikbergquist5734 these milk V boards run RTOS or Linux on the board. This means that you can SSH into the board and run any linux command. I have successfully run Python scripts on the version I have without issue. You can blink the LED with Python. But more importantly, the ones I have I paid $3 more for the camera attachment. So I can use Python to stream the camera over the network. It is basically a cheap IP camera running Python.

@newmonengineering

Ай бұрын

@@fredrikbergquist5734 Also the DUO board supports pinmux so you can use the pins on it, I have not tried the new board in this video yet

Things are getting better for RISC V. In a few years there should be a RISC type desktop pc that can run linux and handle video and photography.

@TechnicallyUnsure

2 ай бұрын

Exactly and that's what I want to see! Hopefully soon.

@TheD3adlysin

2 ай бұрын

That exists already

@tonykeltsflorida

2 ай бұрын

@@TheD3adlysin proof? 2 hours later: The proof has not been provided. The type of computer is not here yet. It would run Linux and Android, have 32GB of RAM and 8GB of VRAM and the CPU would clock at 4Ghz. It would need 2 slots for NvMe SSD storage and a 320GB ssd sata boot drive.

I'm a fan of the Milk-V series, and I'm very hopeful that now that this board is hitting the market, there'll be a ton of updates in a short amount of time.

Be good for porting code I guess. Still trying for RISCV only solutions. Over the decades I've sent ARM some ridiculous checks because only their compiler optimizes...uh...optimization...and you can't get to some levels with a vendor's part/IP without the vendor's tools (so gcc, et al, only gets you so far, before you hit a what we call these days a "paywall").

This is a super powerful stitch monster that integrates: arm, risc-v, 8051, tpu

I'm looking for a uC or the smallest/cheapest SBC capable of run node-red and mqtt. That's it, that's all I need. Now I use Raspberry with a lot of esp32, but the esp32 sometimes fall short, and replacing them by Raspberrys is somewhat expensive. This Milk-V may be the perfect in beetwen solution.

Great video! I still want to try one of the Milk-V duo boards. But not because the price; there have been $10 Linux computers for many years. Take the Raspberry Pi Zero 1, for example, which costs around 10 bucks now and was even 5 bucks a few years ago. But just because I'm curious. 😁

I managed to boot from the eMMC! It is super fast!

@udirt

Ай бұрын

i got the one without eMMC and i still don't understand why i did that. ;-)

Love the competence and enthusiasm!

it used to be normal for gpio to be hard to use on such boards(sbc), mostly depends on the target audience, for example in the past pine64 mostly speciffically targeted advanced users/developers, so it was quite normal early on to get things surrounding the gpio like what you got, also have had to read all the way through the soc's datasheet to find numbers and then figure out how they where laid out on the board and how to acces them from within the os.

There are debian images now, with the latest one it even runs X11 forwarding and windows applications via box64 and wine

stated powerusage is 5v 1A powersuply max, however couldn't find real world powerusage, in your video the measuring device was blurry almost constantly, one time it wasn't and showed 5v 0.1A 0W, so I wonder what it actually draws under low and heavy load, might be interesting for people to host their own sites like in the old days, since it is cheap and with the very low power usage there is little running cost to it, and a small size as well.

Thanks for breaking it down! Just getting into Linux and this looks like a fun start.

Would love to see a follow-up once the GPIO issues are sorted. Keep us posted!

This would be perfect for something like Alpine Linux running a couple Dockers.

@mitcoes

Ай бұрын

podman instead of docker is better, because it is FOSS, specially podman desktop companion vs portainer CE

@jasont80

Ай бұрын

@@mitcoes Good points. I just haven't tried to move to podman yet. Nothing is broke, so no reason to fix it at the moment.

Your terminal recording was too high we couldnt see u typing but... great great video !

Just snagged one! Can't wait to play around with it.

This little board is mighty! 💪 Picked up two because why not?

The largest missed opportunity on these milkv boards is none of them support poe. I know you can buybadapters but it would be nice to just plug it into the ethernet and it has power. I have another model with a camera and it works very well

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

100% agree!

Well it's just recommended to not switch from the ARM to the RISC-V core after the install of Linux. You will certainly won't get a bootable system. The Kernel and all system packages where compiled for one or the other architecture.

Is this the version that has the new floating point libraries added in silucon?? That's quite important!

One will have more component's on it than the other. Who knows.

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

Isn't it self-evident for SBCs to run Linux? But it' good that seemingly cheap SBCs are back, nice find! :) The switch feature is crazy. Of course it wold be even better to be able to use both at once ;) The downside is that they now all have too little RAM for many purposes ... there have been cheap SBS with much bigger RAM years, ago ..

Yes risk-V for the masses... the future looks great

Thanks for the video! This board looks very interesting, I think I will buy one soon. I was just wondering if anyone knows what type of RAM is using, is it DDR3, DDR4? I can't find it anywhere, it's a very small RAM but from my experience and at least for my use case what makes the difference is the RAM speed, I can live with 512MB but not with a slow RAM. For instance the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W has DDR2 RAM and it is too slow for my applications.

@joakinsa

9 күн бұрын

Nevermind, I just found it on their datasheet (which is still in chinese), it's a DDR3 DRAM. So I guess it's not as good as the Orange Pi Zero 2W but not as bad as the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W.

How sustainable is this at such a low price? Seems almost too good to be true!

Curious, have you tried using pinmux or wiringx to use the pins? I did on the earlier version of this board without any issues

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

Yes, earlier versions have official support and documentation, not this particular board (yet)

Why not provide access to all cores? Yes, there is complexity, but workload profiling would be cool.

I have one of those.

the eemmc is rockett scince !! i canot find mine

wish I could see what you were typing.

Can we install Java (JRE) on this board?

@r0galik

23 күн бұрын

Sure

Lol, cheaper than my lunch and probably smarter too. 🍔💻

want one, but not carried in amazon (where I am)...

Will it run puppy linux?

Not enough RAM and only one usable USB port. Not sure what niche they’re trying to hit with these.

Where did you get this for $10?

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s

So, are you actually claiming that the GPIO on the board DOESN'T WORK, or just that it doesn't work with nice friendly pre-canned software packages? I mean, have you really dug deep in the hardware documentation and tried to work it out from ground zero?

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

Yep, there was (at the time of recording the video) absolutely no documentation whatsoever related to the gpio. As I said in the video, I didn't have the time to brute force pins one by one or try other methods. Even the vendor doesn't seem to take care of that after months (since the github release date for first image), so if vendor haven't figured it out yet, I don't think I can in a timely manner

ae-race? Erase?

You know arm is risc too

@TechnicallyUnsure

2 ай бұрын

Yes, I know. That's why in video I say "check out history of ARM and RISC" etc. The main difference is RISC-V is an open-source, whereas ARM is a proprietary

Can it run kali

@krimzon653

2 ай бұрын

Google: The minimum RAM requirement for Kali Linux is 2 GB. But to run Kali efficiently and perform various tasks simultaneously, having 4 GB or more RAM is always recommended.

Is this real? A $10 computer board that does all this??

Looks fun to play with, but practically pointless. Does the switch simply select the boot core and the others are available via software after boot? Otherwise just a play toy - a waste of silicon. So many of these little boards are shipped with software support "not there yet" and it never arrives.

16:22 No we cant see it.

looks like a lot of work, to do absolutely nothing. Without being able to control the GPIO under program control the device has no value. You're better off buying that 10 dollar cup of coffee. I'm going to pass. I'm not going to wait and hope the manufacturer can get it together so I can buy and use their product in a project. I'll buy a raspberry pi pico that's ready to go, or an esp32. The microcontroller graveyard is full of boards just like this. The problems you're going through are a huge red flag. Maybe the company needs to hire a competent team leader and some real engineers.

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

I totally hear you, its been around 16 days since I recorded this video and I just checked, still no GPIO, unfortunately... Not sure when they'll figure it out and fix it

@EvanBoldt

5 күн бұрын

That section also seemed like giving a huge pass to something that’s often a huge problem. Rarely boards get any additional documentation or firmware updates after the release.

Would be nice if you included links where the can be obtained. I seriously doubt they are $10. That is like saying a Raspberry Pi is $35 and I have yet to find one that cheap. Even if you do you still have to buy a power supply, sd card, video cable, maybe a keyboard and mouse.

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

Sure, I bought it from here, with no options selected/added, it's $9.99 arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s

@zk_6312

Ай бұрын

@@TechnicallyUnsure Great, thanks. They really are $9.99. I might have get one.

@PhiDeck

Ай бұрын

Shipping to USA is US$12, which makes the base version $22, and the eMMC one $30.

Bro…. Zoom in.

@TechnicallyUnsure

Ай бұрын

Sorry about that, tried to address that issue in the videos I made after this one

that knife was cool but kids might get nightmares

Linux is too monstrous for such devices. RTOS is just fine for gpio usages. There should be some OS in between those two. I heard of OpenHarmony

@thecircusb0y1

Ай бұрын

Such a cheap device for mvp development and more support for Linux, it’s worth the bloat if there even is any bloat. There’s enough stripped versions of Linux like Firecracker to be quick and lite.

dumbest thing I've ever heard. why not throw an x86 core as well?

@altosack

Ай бұрын

$ and power

so basicaly it barely manages to swich a LED on and off , a NE555 can does that too.