This is probably the best interpretation of the Flame of Frenzy Ending out of ALL the content creators on KZread, expertly done!

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

High praise indeed! Thank you so much!

@aveem3164

10 ай бұрын

It's because he is a follower of Goldmask. Goldmask is a brilliant scholar and teacher, and so, the one who carries the deepest understanding of his teachings shall be the most brilliant of all.

The distinction here between the One Great and the Greater Will is pretty interesting, not only because it's crucial for the point made, but because it genuinely draws a fundamental hierarchical line that we haven't seen in other interpretations, considering the Greater Will can be taken as anything from a wild god among other gods, the God (Deus), the most powerful god of some broken pantheon, an extraterrestrial entity, a deep space civilization, and so on. The entirety of the Lands Between seem ignorant of even the Elden Beast, let alone an entity as far out and as unknowable as the Monad. This is a pretty fascinating take.

@Gamespud94

Жыл бұрын

all good points, but I think in this analogy the Greater Will is more likely playing the part of the Demiurge, a being who created the world but made it imperfectly as opposed to the incomprehensible perfection of the true One Great. And all we have to do is look at how the order it has supported has caused so many injustices and suffering to see how it connects.

@kimlee6643

Жыл бұрын

@@Gamespud94 I didn't mean to word that so confusingly, but I was agreeing with the premise of the video. The greater minds of the Lands Between have contact/influence with the equivalent of the Demiurge (Greater Will), because for them the Monad (One Great) is entirely unknown.

@SomeUserk

Жыл бұрын

Phaedrus is such a confusing example as it is definitely written by Plato but so uncharacteristic of him. It is almist a good exampke of what Plato does not think but ironically written by him. I dont think the “monad” as depicted by the one great is actually greater than what a demiurge is in Plato’s eyes. The monad (one great) here is more like a pantheistic crucible, which is not what Parmenides’ being, which Plato calls the monad is about. Parmenides thinks that the most basic logic is “being be and no nonbeing”, for which reason the word nothing does not even make sense. However this is not a crucible or primordial soup, more like an infallible statement, that simoly put there is something (because even if there is nonbeing then nonbeing IS, so inevitably back to there is, and nonbeing here actually IS). Being here is a logical statement, not a crucible soup. A crucible soup such as the one great and a demiurge are both already more associated with matter rather than Plato’s untangible floating concepts, so the one great is no more preferable than demiurge. Also, a true monad is friend with reason rather than madness For example, the one great is not oneness itself, nor greatness itself, but merely a partaker of the Ideas of Greatness and Oneness (oneness here being more of a particular concept of quantity, and not Plotinus’ Monad which is inspired by Parmenides which is supposedly behind all concepts). In other words, the one great is beneath Platonic Ideas, how much more beneath Parmenides. It is a mere partaker of Ideas, just like the demiurge partakes of the idea of one by being an individual demiurge. Really does not help that gnosticism here is associated with that pretentious anime evangelion

@bluesmurff6163

11 ай бұрын

I always think of the One Great as being everything in the Lands Between united as one (maybe perfect?) thing while the Greater Will is the force that decided to forcingly break it apart.

The frenzied flame ending is the coolest one for sure, but I just couldn't go through with it after Melena begs you not to.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the way her voice cracks and falters is really impactful. Such a great job by the voice actress.

I really love just how the chaos flame blends so many aspects of this gnostic ideal, The One from the greeks, and even the destruction of self. Truly the law of regression at work, may honey rays of gold melt into a festering yellow flame.

Funny, I immediately identified the Frenzied Flame as Gnosticism once I dug into the lore, and I resolved to oppose it even harder as soon as I did. The Serpent in the Garden of Eden spoke Gnosticism to Adam and Eve... is it any wonder that serpents are seen as traitors to the Erdtree? Honestly, Elden Ring probably has the richest inspiration from Christian orthodoxy and heresy of any FromSoft game to my knowledge. It's really cool to see it done on a level beyond aesthetics like most fantasy does.

@franksousa54

5 күн бұрын

Gnostics was a mix of bag Hellenism, Judaism, and even Hinduism/Buddhism. In the later, there is the concept of Kundalini, which symbolic of a serpent and even flame. It even said that Kundalini Awakenings can induce madness if one not prepared for it. Meanwhile there is the concept of Maya, and that the World is a grand illusion. And Einstein said reality a persisent illusion, and that we kind have to de-tach from it, while not being an Egotistical Demiurge ourselves. I now want to play this game after seeing this.

The undoing of creation via the frenzied flame also strongly parallels the Kabbalistic idea of undoing creation by gathering the pieces and restoring the broken vessel of our reality. Out of all the endings, this ending’s ties to Kabbalah and Gnosticism makes it live in my head rent free

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Yes, definitely! And the Shadow of the Erdtree screenshot has me convinced we're going to explore the Qliphoth in the DLC.

@drakengarfinkel3133

Жыл бұрын

@@garrulousgoldmask It's going to be so cool. Also, seeing Qliphoth is probably even more likely as in Berserk (the manga FromSoft incessantly references,) the main characters at one point literally go to Qliphoth.

We are thinking along the same terms here. The "Light" motif of the monad comes from Illumination Theory described by Augustine. The Monad and the various emanations of the sephirot were a reinterpretation of Protagorian Mathematics. The gnostics and the manichaeans also pulled in a lot of religious influences from Buddhism and then Islam, as well as Greek philosophy. There is a lot of combining and trying to reconcile different traditions in gnosticism.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! I always found syncretic religions to be fascinating, and that's especially true for Gnosticism, which blended together so many different beliefs and traditions.

I didn't know I needed Joshua Graham reading Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses until now!

Man, that is both a ballsy and interesting way to look at it.

Thank you for using the eva music with this. It's fucking perfect.

holy shit I didn't know Goldmask can talk! jokes aside, I like this religious parallel comparison perspective specially with how christianity-esque the golden order is

It's interesting how much is parallel with the idea of the heat death of the universe. In doing anything that end is furthered

I consider myself gnostic and this game screamed so much symbolism at me when I first played another good example of fromsoftwares gnostic Influences is Aldia in DS2

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Oh interesting! Though I guess I shouldn't be too surprised there are Gnostic elements in DS 2, since Elden Ring is DS 2 2.

@ma4900

Жыл бұрын

@@garrulousgoldmask great breakdown on this btw man I watched your gold mask vid a month ago and it was brilliant subscribed

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

@ma4900

Жыл бұрын

@@garrulousgoldmask you’re so welcome bro best wishes to you and yours

The whole Dark Souls trilogy was about how we should be able to let things die. But when I try to bring a little melting everything into nothingness to the Lands Between *I'm* the bad guy! Hipocrisy much?

@kimlee6643

Жыл бұрын

Jokes aside, there are some pretty visceral reactions to the Frenzied Flame among lore enthusiasts. I frankly don't understand the spastic morality some people approach this fascinating idea with. I think it's one of the most picturesque things in Elden Ring.

@Karak-_-

Жыл бұрын

And you figured that how? It's not about letting things die, but not dwelling on them and replacing them with something new.

@alyseleem2692

Жыл бұрын

​@@Karak-_- Except who told you there'll be something new? You see, cycles like these, they happen when things are allowed to be distinct. When there is something happening, that is. You think something new will come out when everything is, I dunno, " melted all away"?

@alyseleem2692

Жыл бұрын

​​@@kimlee6643 Ah, yes. " Picturesque". When it comes to my " moral" objections to this idea,I think I can put it simply like this: It's the coward's way out. You're just admitting that you can't fix ### about this world. So, you burn it. You also ( depending on who you ask. Not you specifically) assume that something new will come from it. Why? Because it makes you feel better. Or better yet, you assume it's better for everyone to just...not exist. That it's actually good if we stay that way. Now, here's the thing: When was anyone else's right to exist or not to any of your Goddamn business? Who told you that you get to choose for the entire ###ing world, full of people like Roderika, Hewg, Boc, Alexander, Blaidd and those you never even got to know? Who told you that a single one of them would prefer your solution? Do you think any one of them would be selfish enough to think that existence should end for the sake of their own suffering? Do you think existence is suffering? Well, good for you. There's this thing we call " Destined Death". Go break it out. Or better yet, melt yourself in that pretty little fire you love so much. Maybe it'll do the work. Let you all away, in the yellow chaos flame... Just keep the urge to end your own suffering to yourself. How about that?

@Karak-_-

Жыл бұрын

​@@alyseleem2692 That's not what I meant The vibe I got from Dark Souls 3 is that the cycle of Ages of Fire and Dark went for too long, and it needs to be replaced with something else, such as Age of Hollows, or the world the Painter made. Now about Elden Ring, that's kinda what you do in each Mending Rune and Ranni ending: creating a new Order, either from scratch or by modifiying the old one. And if that Order fails, there can be someone new to try again to make it better.

Bro I just found your channel and you are awesome. Souls and the esoteric are litteraly my life 😂 much love

@garrulousgoldmask

8 ай бұрын

Awesome! Praise the Algorithm!

Very nice video. Gnosticism is wild stuff and seen it represented here makes me happy. Keep up the great work man, take care!

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

wow great video really opened my mind! Great research

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much!

Yes!!! I've been telling as many people as possible that this game is heavily Gnostic at its core for a while now. In Elden Ring, the Monad in my opinion exists as Deus In Rebus (God In All Things). The Arcane stat, drawing upon one's inner power is the best example of this, but the Ancestral Followers' worship of Nature itself also exemplifies this worldview, a far cry from the idolatry of the more orthodox Golden Order. Gnosis can be attained through seeking spiritual knowledge, but as you said yourself, one must first be illumined by Divine Madness to understand that all is One. I believe Radagon set out on this journey, learning sorceries and incantations to perfect himself. What madness spurred him initially? According to the philosopher and theologian Giordano Bruno, Divine Love is what spurs the heroic enthusiast on their journey. In his works, the hunter Actaeon meets Diana (the moon) and is transformed by a Frenzy of love. He then leaves his beloved, still loving her, disregarding her instead in that higher calling (rejoining the One). The intellect (Actaeon) is recalled by the soul and they come into conflict with each other over feeling Divine Love. I have one question though. Was the gnostic apocalypse you were talking about the Lament of Asclepius?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Yeah! I was really taken aback by just how many Gnostic parallels and symbols are incorporated in the game. And those are really interesting takes on the Ancestral Followers and Radagon! I was more referring to the Apocalypse in general since there quite a few Gnostic texts called the Apocalypse of ______. But now that you mentioned the Lament, I definitely see the connections to Elden Ring!

@Interfuge

Жыл бұрын

What?? Would this make Rykard Asclepius? Lol

Great video! Such an interesting interpretation. I'd heard of the Gnostics before but didn't really know what they were about. I think it fits pretty well with the story that's being told about the Frenzied Flame ^_^

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! It really took me by surprise just how well a lot of the Gnostic elements mapped onto the Frenzied Flame

Holy shit! The imperfections of the world that the frenzied flame spoke was the creation of the demiurge! How was I unable to make that connection?

FINALLY someone has addressed this connection! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been called an edgelord for defending this ending with this exact arguement.

@tokoyonokuni4656

Жыл бұрын

These people who called you an edgelord do not make much sense, since you were "defending" it instead of simply explaining it: by definition, an edge is unequal to the rest of the blade.

This was my first ending and I was SO PISSED when I finished the cutscene and was sent back into the normal world instead of the badass burned one... Imagine if 90% of enemies were dead, but the ones that survived(for now) were stronger madness variants. The world looks so amazing in the cutscene.

@LiaGamer

7 ай бұрын

But you cant choose to explore in place to start the NG+?

this makes the most sense

now my next ending will be frenzied flame

I perceive the ''Lands between'' to be exactly that, the world / purgatory between a certain fantasy world/universe and its afterlife. Every aspect of the lands between consist of pain, grief, turmoil ,suffering or sad desperation. All the beings in the Lands Between are sent there after death in the real realm ,to either suffer in this purgatory or to rule over/maintain the Lands Between (as a ''god, demigod or Elden lord.). Endless rebirth into a hellscape until the correct criteria is met for the being to pass on to the afterlife, heaven or hell. The Twin Bird is the representation of this. The black death bird transports them to hell or the Red Death bird transports them to ‘’heaven’’. The very game starts with ‘’Rise ye tarnished (tarnished by sin, thus sent to purgatory) … ye dead … who yet live. Then you see the grace entering our dead vessel (That died in the real realm) , allowing us to awaken into this purgatory, destined to reawake after every painful death, until the correct criteria is met for the being to pass on to the afterlife, heaven or hell. Even with the (Tibia Marriner) ferryman of Greek mythology seen across the Lands Between , one can see that the Lands Between is the transition stage between life (in this fantasy universe) and the afterlife of this fantasy universe. The Greatsword ‘’Helphens Steeple'’ dropped by a Tibia Marriner, is in the form of a Christian Church steeple, these Churches with their elevated steeples in Medieval Europe acted as gigantic map markers for all, showing you the way to civilisation,to Life , to the Light , showing that within this building, you will find the way to heaven , to true life. And of course the way to reach God Three in One, to sit by His side within Heaven ,in the Afterlife. Mikela and the assimilated prophecy of salvation and the mercy towards the albinorics (the experiments of life / the downtrodden and oppressed / humans) and all whom would reject the evils of this purgatory might just find salvation and the ‘’Promised land ‘’ ..to get to ascend to Heaven. Melania represents the Medieval Christian knights whom fight to protect the ethos of mercy and salvation of Chritendom , most skilled warriors ..but whom are sadly, just like all people , infected by the rot of sin and whose only salvation is through the One whom they fight for. We even have the Valkyries of Norse mythology , Melania + her daughters whose sole purpose it is ,to identify great warriors that HAS FALLEN IN BATTLE and to carry them to the afterlife of this fantasy universe. No where in the ‘’Lands Between’’ do we find any food nor houses, nor any buildings/infrastructure required to sustain actual life, instead we only find catacombs, thousands upon thousands of graves and gargantuan administrative buildings .. housing only figures of power / institutes of magical learning / temples. (Means to / knowledge of how to leave purgatory..or to rule it) Prator Rykard, a symbol of Egyptian Mythology ,the serpent god Apophis , demon of chaos, who had the form of a serpent and was the foe of the sun god, Re (Foe of the current order) Apopis threatened the underworld….the lands between. The serpent devouring itself , a symbol of constant destruction and renewal… The entire realm of the ‘’Lands between’’ is a realm which depicts the transition/deliverance of the ones whom have died, to the afterlife Christian/Greek/Norse/Egyptian/Japanese kegare, thus the ‘’Lands Between’’ is the realm of transitioning from the world of a certain fantasy universe and its afterlife via purgatory. The Thrones of the NOX ‘’Night king’’ = king of darkness. These gigantic skeletons are like eldridge beings, ruling over the Eternal cities , as they sit there, they are undead, dormant, until a suitable amount of lost souls are brought in front of them. Upon which they wake and devour the essence of all the tormented peoples in front of them, sending the devoured to hell. Thus all the beings in front of them are left petrified, left in their state of anguish, screaming in torment and pain and fear , in doing so the eldridge lords gain power to rule further. The ferryman of Greek mythology seen across the Lands Between are of his kin, his servants whom serve the same purpose , to either lead the damned in purgatory to the afterlife , or to lead them to the Night king…

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

That's a great read of the game! It's fascinating just how many different mythological elements Elden Ring pulls together.

@kimlee6643

Жыл бұрын

Fascinating perspective.

@jordannelson7911

7 ай бұрын

This is an interesting idea. One thing isn't right though, there are certainly houses and food in the land between. Think of the prawn guy. That doesn't disprove this theory though, but it could be that it's more true in an allegorical or symbolic sense than a literal one. Thematically, it would make sense

Love the Komm, Susser Tod theme from Eva

Your most amazing video

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! That's probably my favorite video so far

Absolutely fascinating video. I contribute to be baffled by the riches and depths in Elden Ring’s mythology. What this makes me wonder though: If there is so much significance and beauty in the depiction of the Wandering Merchants, why was Kalé’s quest line cut? I guess there's plenty of videos addressing that; at this point I can only wonder. If the reason is related to gameplay and/or economy of attention, did they really value that higher than such a fundamental illumination of the philosophical depths? or were the reasons different?

@simonalbrecht9435

Жыл бұрын

*continue

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! It really is incredible just how many religious traditions the game has been able to incorporate. And that is a really good question! I wish I knew. The fact that it had voice acting (some of the best in the game imo) implies that the quest was cut relatively late in development. Just to speculate, I'm thinking it may have been cut for technical reasons they weren't able to resolve (Kalé does move quite a bit in that quest line). Though the game was able to patch in endings for quests involving Nepheli and Jar Bairn Or FromSoft cut it for timeline reasons since Kalé trying to find the Caravan implies that they were buried alive fairly recently, while in the current version, it comes across to me like a tragedy that's been hidden for ages.

Great job

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

The frenzy of all flame!

Watch the Frenzied Flame Ending become the canonical ending if they give us an Elden Ring 2.

@tokoyonokuni4656

Жыл бұрын

The only possible "cannonical ending" for an Elden Ring 2 are the Age of Stars and the Age of Fracture. Anything else than Fracture would require much change in terms of gameplay, while the Age of Stars is the only ending with a programmed end (Ranni says 1 millenium, although she is speaking metaphorically, but still). You were clearly spurned by the Grace of Kala Bhairava to not see this. :p

@DivineKala

Жыл бұрын

@@tokoyonokuni4656 or maybe I was being facetious?

@tokoyonokuni4656

Жыл бұрын

@@DivineKala Would I stick my tongue out to you if I wasn't being facetious?

As interesting as gnosticism is as a world building tool, such as in Morrowind, at the end of the day it's just fan fiction of Plato inserted in early christianity. The main difference being the gnostic writters were filled with Ressentiment.

Human instrumentality but with fire. May chaos take the world

I feel like Evangelion is one big counter argument to what Gnostic mythology promotes.

Any system that seeks to remedy one injustice with another, is nothing but evil.

You should check out Xenogears for the PS1 if you want to play a game completely revolving around Gnosticism and multiple other religious and psychological theories.

@garrulousgoldmask

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the recommendation!

if you ask me, i believe the best ending would be to first take on the frenzy flame to accept being able to not just feel but to in a sense, become the chaotic sorrow, fear, and pain of all those who you would become lord of and burning yourself instead of melina as i believe she is the TRUE emperyean chosen to be the next god by the greater will being the pure emobdiment of order hence why even in the frenzy flame ending she still not only persists but pressumably goes and DOES hunt you down and kill you with it could probably be believed that for the elden lord of the frenzy flame to die would kill the only semblenece of the frenzy flames order and thus actually allow for ONE DAY the greater will, all for the embodiment of order to re assert itself but none the less, i still think that then, getting miquellas unalloyed gold needle to ward off the frenzy flames control over you while you still will always be marked by its flame and still always carry with you the pain and sorrow of the world which any good lord of anything should ALWAYS remember the pain of every single one of their subjects they can and never forgot it so they can feel their peoples rightoues indignation and suffer with them before than using their power to try righting their wrongs however possible as you than finish gold masks questline and carry out with the ending of the true golden order where there is no orginization to dictate the golden order as it is prevented from ever being interfered with again with melina always keeping an eye on your to ensure you never fully fall to the frenzied flame and to make sure to kill you before you ever would even come close to doing so.

All of the endings have some form of positive and negative outlook. I was unsure about what the "positives" of the Frenzied Flame ending were until i saw this, and it really feels like there's no right choice for preserving the Lands Between that is given to the player, so maybe burning everything away is justified... but if life is extinguished entirely, no one really wins except the frenzied flame.

I didn't see this ending as total obliteration, but a collapsing back into oneness, a state of being that material creatures can't comprehend as they are, and are driven to what an outsider would call "madness" trying to grapple with. Because of the negative connotations surrounding fire and burning, and its association with destruction, people confuse dispersing into a state of light and energy with destruction; but it seems more to me of a change into a different unified form. That's why it seems like a "bad" ending.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

That's a great reading of it! Though if this is a form of ego death en masse, I suppose it wouldn't be too surprising that rejoining the One Great would be seen as destruction.

@n.s.mcmahon6180

Жыл бұрын

​@@garrulousgoldmaskit would certainly be the end of one's consciousness as they knew it. What the soul (for lack of a better term) would be without the body would likely be so radically different an existence that I suppose destruction is still apt. But hey, even destruction gets a bad rap sometimes.

MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD! Bases Joshua Graham

Nice work brother! Burn it all down because it shouldnt have been here to begin with. Its hard to make that call for everyone and deny the ability to experience, but its delusional to think you can fix it because you will still exist under the greater will which is the problem to begin with.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

This.... I cannot agree with this. Not entirely, and for a few reasons. The Frenzied Flame has a simple ethos; it declares the existence of division to be a sin against the nature of the One Great, as well as the cause of all suffering. All forms of disparity, individuality and independent existence must be purged in order to return the world to it's true, pure state. That's not anywhere near what Gnosticism was about. At all. Gnostic tradition wasn't about the destruction of the very concept of division. The Monad itself existed as the source of a slew of other deities in it's own perfect realm, whom in turn only one of which gave birth to the eponymous demiurge, a wretched but well-meaning mockery of a god( yes. Believe it or not, the demiurge isn't pure evil. ). The goal of Gnosticism was to ascend humanity to said perfect realm, where their " spark", and that of the demiurge, originates. All of this is made on the assumption that the Monad is " the Good" in Platonic terms; that it is,in contrast to the imperfect demiurge, inherently benevolent. The Monad, as you said, is not the source of the physical universe. It is not some " singularity " from which everything we know sprang. The One Great,however, is, and despite everything I keep hearing,there is no indication that it is sentient. Indeed, consciousness itself as we know it is a symptom of division and individuality, neither of which it had. We also have no indication the Greater Will came from it, unless you insist on counting it with " the rest of existence ", that is, which i think we have good reason to deny,considering how many golden trees you can see in that lake, no? In fact, here's a little tidbit: Before Gnosticism, the very idea of the demiurge in Greek philosophy was much simpler; the demiurge itself is a benevolent being, but one that does not have the power to truly transform the inherent " chaos" of Creation into perfection. This is considered impossible because the universe we exist in, as opposed to the Platonic realm of ideas, is made out of primordial chaos, and therefore must hold both randomness and imperfection by default. This is emphasised in the word used to describe the being: Demiurge. Craftsman. It can only work with the materials it has, and the materials do not allow the possibility of a perfect world. In other words, all of this could be simply that. The Greater Will is a demiurge, a craftsman disatisified with their work, trying again and again to impose it's ideal of perfect " Order" , a world of stable and unchanging laws, but failing. As such, by the time we start the game, it already left. It probably has another project by now. Who knows? We're simply shoddy craftsmanship. We don't really get to know.

just let me rumble the world one last time to free all souls from suffering and bring them back to plemora

Also did you use Joshua Graham ai voce?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

And I did! Eleven Labs specifically.

good video is it ok if I ask you a question?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thank you--and go for it!

@sueflewelling3657

Жыл бұрын

​@@garrulousgoldmask ok so we all know that the demigod are the major bosses but they never explain what kind of demigod they are like general radahn is most likely the demigod of war what do you think?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Hm, that's an interesting question! So the demigods in Elden Ring have that status based on their relationship to Marika. In other words, the demigods in Elden Ring aren't really a god of something like you would see in Greek or Norse mythology. That said, some of them are powerful because they can channel the powers of an Outer God (Formless Mother for Mohg and the Outer God of Rot for Malenia). Likewise, Rykard fed himself to the serpent deity that was worshipped in Mt. Gelmir. But even still, they aren't necessarily the demigods of Blood/Rot/Serpents, they're just using the powers of gods associated with those elements. (Malenia is a bit of an interesting case since it's ambiguous as to whether or not she blooms for the third time in the fight with the Tarnished. And we do know the blind swordsman sealed away the Outer God of Rot below Nokstella.)

@sueflewelling3657

Жыл бұрын

​@@garrulousgoldmask two more things what do you think of elden ring overall story since I've seem people say there is no story so dose the other soulsborne games and to who do you think would win botw link vs tarnished?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

That's a really complex question and I'm planning to address in a deep dive video at some point. But Elden Ring is definitely an odd duck because the lore and worldbuilding is absolutely phenomenal and there are a lot of really well done smaller stories nestled within the game itself. But the overarching narrative I personally find to be rather lackluster and threadbare. There's also the fact that FromSoft games are deliberately opaque, so while the stories themselves may be fascinating, the way they're told can leave a lot to be desired. Millicent's questline is probably the best example of this. I really like her as a character and she's a great foil to Malenia, but idk how anyone can do her quest without Fextralife or reddit open. Alas, I don't have a Switch so I never actually played BotW (or TotK)

Time to play Xenoblade.

The belief in Katharsis (purification) seems to be a very present theme at the end of the frantic Flame and even in Dark Souls, but it is worth remembering that this concept of Destruction of the world through flames is an orthodox Christian belief, this is not essentially something Gnostic . Basil, and Origen for example, believed in the Renewal of the world, that there would be a consummation of times that is nothing more than the Apocalypse and Destruction, and after this there would be renewal. Despite all this relationship between this ending and Gnostic Christianity, it seems more appropriate to say that this ending takes us back to alchemy, like the yellow flame that can take us back to the "initiating" role of the yellow flame of chaos (Citrinitas). The world seems to be dying, it is full of fractures, so the current world could be identified with Nigredo, while the apocalyptic and sanitary role of the flame seems to be Albedo, who purifies the world by freeing it from its misery and death, and through destruction , the Cytrinitas stage is reached when everyone merges with the flame, and not yet with the great One, the flame plays an intermediate role in the Union, and only in the Union with the One can we have Rubedo. Another interesting thing is the symbolism of dissolution adopted in alchemy, where alchemists and philosophers threw themselves into cauldrons to kill their own flesh and be reborn as spiritual men, like Zosimos, the burning of the world represents precisely this, the process of dissolution.

@AggelosIoannes

8 ай бұрын

As for the fact that the evil Demiurge of few Gnostic sects is identified with the Greater Will, I don't think it's really that. Another interesting fact is that when we study Gnosticism superficially we always think that the creator of the world, the Demiurge, is an evil agent, but this is not true, few sects really believed in this. The Valentinians, for example, believed in the REDEMPTION of the Demiurge, and this is explicit in Heracleon's exegesis on the healing carried out by Jesus of the magistrate's son. We see something similar also in the Hypostasis of the Archons, the demiurge at worst is a fool, not an evil god.

@AggelosIoannes

8 ай бұрын

Another thing that might be a good idea to take into consideration is that they are against disparity, fractures, deaths and births, but they are not against life, what could that mean? Buddha placed Birth as one of the dissatisfactions (Dukkha) because birth conditions the person to the cycle of births and deaths, always tied to Samsara and aggregates. I believe that this is precisely why the game considers birth to be a bad thing. I don't think this ending is as pessimistic or fatalistic as it may seem, I don't even believe that Gnosticism and Buddhism is pessimistic, nilististic or fatalistic, I just believe that all these things are taken into consideration and it's not so black and white or evil and good.

You might even think that the frenzied flame and its followers are hypocritical (to say the least) when talking about avenging the nomadic people. The way the game phrase the relation between this tribe and the cult of frenzy is often that they were accused of being followers. It never state that they were actual followers. For what we know, they might have never heard of the flame before being hastely judged and burried alive. Even the surviving merchants seem to have developped a connection to the outer god out of rage from what happened, as implied by the cut dialogue from Kale (which, granted, isn't exactly canon). Moreover, Shabriri had its eyes removed as a punishement for spreading lies. It is totaly possible that the merchants were wrongly accused based on rumors spreaded by Shabriri. By doing so, the flame's apostle not only introduced the knowledge of this outer god's existence, but also created the perfect conditions for a tribe of tortured and desperate people to summon it into the world with the three fingers. If all of that is true, the Frenzied flame is the real culprit of the genocide, even more so than the Golden Order.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

There would definitely be a malicious elegance in causing a people to despair, and then using that same despair to grow even stronger. And if the Outer Gods are Lovecraftian monstrosities, that would certainly fit their MO! That said, at least some of the nomads were afflicted by the Flame of Frenzy before they were buried alive under Leyndell. According to the Nomad Spirit Ashes, the nomads were "entombed in the earth so as to bury the maddening disease that followed them." Though you are right that the game doesn't seem to say whether or not the nomads were also worshippers of the Frenzied Flame before Leyndell. As for Shabriri, he may have been patient zero for the Frenzied Flame, according to the Howl of Shabriri incantation (though that is hearsay). And while Shabriri did have his eyes gouged out for slander and he is the most reviled man in history, I don't think his crime was falsely accusing the nomadic merchants. Mainly because Marika's Golden Order has oppressed so many different groups and cultures that unfairly harming another marginalized community wouldn't be seen as shocking or morally objectionable.

@massimilianoreali4398

11 ай бұрын

​@@garrulousgoldmaskbut always in the cut questlines kale tell to us that shabriri accused them

The loss of all life is the loss of loss itself

The Three Fingers are your only direct link to the Greater Will at the time, and they say to burn it all down and return it to god.

Though the ones who also gave her their eyes and howled were wishing they were never born- wished so while under the frenzied flame madness, and had already progressed to the point where their eyes had burned to Shabriri grapes. I would say that it's a reasonable and arguable statement to say that it could also be that everything said by the frenzied Flames followers, had said what they did after basically being consumed by the flame, or typically already in a state of utter despair. It's not a compelling argument that they really had as much free will that wasn't tormented by that point. So of course they'd rather not exist, and having not existed at all means never ending up where they are. I'd say the frenzied flame is the cause of most desire to destroy the world through its own effects on people.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Good point!

Phaedrus is such a confusing example as it is definitely written by Plato but so uncharacteristic of him. It is almist a good exampke of what Plato does not think but ironically written by him. I dont think the “monad” as depicted by the one great is actually greater than what a demiurge is in Plato’s eyes. The monad (one great) here is more like a pantheistic crucible, which is not what Parmenides’ being, which Plato calls the monad is about. Parmenides thinks that the most basic logic is “being be and no nonbeing”, for which reason the word nothing does not even make sense. However this is not a crucible or primordial soup, more like an infallible statement, that simoly put there is something (because even if there is nonbeing then nonbeing IS, so inevitably back to there is, and nonbeing here actually IS). Being here is a logical statement, not a crucible soup. A crucible soup such as the one great and a demiurge are both already more associated with matter rather than Plato’s untangible floating concepts, so the one great is no more preferable than demiurge. Also, a true monad is friend with reason rather than madness. But of course evangelion, in its narcissistic “oh i’m a very deep anime” mentality just has to be confusing so people would think it is profound. Thankfully Grrm partially saves elden ring from Japanese tendency to obfuscate, and your contribution if explaining things certainly helps the community. But still there is no preventing weebs who wished that all glory goes to Mitazaki alone and that Elden ring’s non-spoonfeeding storytelling is so profound when a good story does not need to be environmentally buried to be appreciated. If it is good, then it is good. Relying on the satisfaction of lore archeologists to unearth info to make it enjoyable means the story itself is not interestinf, hence the reliance on an archeologist’s unearthing

Chaos and Order are not inherently evil constructs. Under the right circumstances, Order will do exactly what Chaos wants to do.

Just to clarify, Gnosticism was a condemned early church Heresy for obvious reasons it can’t really be considered a sect of Christianity as it really essentially devulges into paganism.

Are you using an AI hayeta?

@garrulousgoldmask

11 ай бұрын

I did! It's not quite as good as Dagoth Ur or Joshua Graham, but was close enough

@grantkelley3372

11 ай бұрын

@@garrulousgoldmask : (

People can try to justify this ending however they want. I’ve never liked it, and I never will.

About gnosticism I don't know man we don't know the truth there's too many sources, which most of them must be misleading, but I think it's still more probable, than this world was created by good, benevolent and all powerful God I came to this conclusion by observation how the world, nature works, immense pain and suffering of innocent people, personal and close people negative experiences (regardless of their believes), and reading the Bible in which Satan is a scape goat, when God should know how it would end (Also existence of free will is very doubtful, by new discoveres by Sience, but I won't tell I know it all, I'm just a stupid person like most, if not all are trying to come closer to the truth. Sorry if my comment was confusing English isn't my first language. Take care guys.

Wow, so the gnostics were a catholic death cult.

Interesting perspective. Probably going to get buried over this but this is a game made by the Japanese with world influence by George RR Martin. It contains inspiration from so many places and times that it really is an injustice trying to tie everything to Christianity alone. There are definitely influences from eastern Europe and that will include Christianity, but also Gnosticism, Hermeticism, and a variety of many other beliefs that were later categorized under the wide blanket of "Paganism". That said, there are also influences of Tao and Buddhism and many eastern beliefs from the games developers. Even Christianity is heavily influenced by other older belief systems including the aforementioned "Pagan" and from ancient Egypt. I predominantly see an attempt to make strong references to Christianity alone in ER videos on this channel and knowing that most people watching will only have knowledge of Christianity it can quickly become a circle jerk echo chamber. I just had to mention this so folks can pick up some books and discover these links for themselves.

@Gamespud94

Жыл бұрын

I don't think the goldmask here is saying that it's all and only Christian inspiration, just pointing out where there is some clear inspiration from it. Honestly none of Elden Ring is purely 100% anything as it takes inspiration from so many things as you said. But it doesn't hurt to look at some of the more lesser known and underappreciated influences.

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! Though I'm a bit surprised you think I'm trying to "make strong references to Christianity alone" on this channel since some of my first lore videos were about the connections Elden Ring has to yoga and Kabbalah. And like gamespud94 said, there are just so many different religious influences present in the game.

@bplus2625

Жыл бұрын

@@garrulousgoldmask Thanks for the reply. I admit I may have misinterpreted the videos I've watched. It just seemed that each one I watched predominantly contained reference to Christianity. As you and Gamespud point out in your replies here, you are seeing influences from many sources, so it appears we're fundamentally on the same page in terms of the influences we see in Elden Ring. Thanks again. Edit to add my my statement of "Christianity alone" was a poor choice of wording. I would be very interested in hearing your speculation on the relationship between The One Great and the Greater Will and how "what is borrowed must be returned". The lore available is sparse. From what I know, it seems to mirror the relationship between Marika and Radagon in a As Above So Below sort of way, with the Greater Will and Radagon both exhibiting a zealous fervor to a focused cause. Anyway, thanks again for helping to set the record straight.

am i the only person who noticed that he says w instead of r when he speaks?

This is like Dark Souls with its First Flame creating all differences in the world which are going to eventually collapse no matter what, and that's a good thing because sustaining the world is painful and fruitless.

"Why don't you back that up with a source?" What are you, a redditor?

@garrulousgoldmask

Жыл бұрын

Shhhh...

of course the frenzied flame is evil, they don't see that nothing that exists is inherently evil, all things derive from the ultimate good, and thus have some good in them. Destroying all reality will not fix anything, it will simply deprive us of the little joys of existing and leave us with nothing.

@massimilianoreali4398

11 ай бұрын

Exactly ironically the best action of the greater will was creating the world by ordering the one great

still cringe nihilistic cope tho

You do realize that innocent people don't exist in the Lands Between, right? Name any character or faction, and you'll have someone that is neutral at best and evil at worst. I'll keep my list of examples small so it's not a wall of text. But regardless I don't buy that there's anyone in the Lands Between is a remotely decent person, let alone innocent. Irena comes from a family of slave drivers, has the mentality of a slave driver and has the gall to lie about not knowing why the "servants" rebelled. Blaidd is the closest we have ever had to an innocent character, and he turns out to be a yandere, murder impulses and all. All Tarnished were bloodthirsty killers when Hora Loux was still Elden Lord, with the implication that there were no exceptions before our exile began (at least in my opinion). And while Melena is spared, it's implied she's the Gloam Eyed Queen and she wants us dead solely because deep down she just wanted to rob Ranni of what little family she'd have had left by the game's end. Not to mention three of the Elden Lord endings involving making eternal pain and suffering a part of life's status quo.

I agree with you, but I am quite stronger in my ideas, IMO the FF ending is just bullshit. You don't end the world because suffering is a thing. Joy is a thing too. I hate with a passion every ideology "defending" that ending and portraying it as "good". There is no good in ending everything, every life, eternally. I strongly side with Melina, and I hate so much that I'm gonna do the FF ending this run because I want to plat Elden Ring. Having to act in a way that goes fundamentally against your beliefs (and RP too) is annoying as fuck. I got so annoyed I started to murder every merchant I see. I don't care if they didn't worship the FF before their genocide, now they do, so now they must die, because the FF is the most evil thing there is IMO. Also I don't get why they aren't ok with being murdered. You want the apocalypse, why do you care that I'm burning you with black flames? Hail the Godskins btw. I wish we knew more about them, like... Why are they here? What's their end-game? What are they doing rn? My guess is nothing, because they've lost their Queen and the god-slaying aspect of their flames.

Too much christian superstition. To you lot mythology and history start two millenia ago; it's just like "the Emperor is Saint Georges" nonsense in 40K, as if there had been 1 dragonslaying hero in all of mythology, as if there were dragons in christian mythology because of judaism, not because it was europeanized. "The One Great" is just how the game calls the primordial chaos - called Hundun or Wuji in Daoism, or Brahman in Sanatana Dharma, and which may be called Ama no Minakanushi no Kami in Shintoism (whereas he is "The One which begat the Two" of Daoism, i.e. Wuji ; and Kami Musubi no Kami & Takami Musubi no Kami correspond therefore to the Two, Taiji), that is to say the non-differentiated state of matter and principle. In the Parmenidis, Platon makes Parmenidis ask if all things are One or if there is only plurality of existence ; obviously, his interlocutor agree that all his one in spite of appearent plurality, i.e. at the highest level of reality, this plurality is unified (for example: consider a human body: you have many cells, yet they form one body ruled by one mind and animated by one soul ; most of what constitute your body also has its own DNA, yet it all come together for a Unity of purpose - ideally speaking, because most humans are unworthy to become temples of the divinity). Therefore, before the manifestation / creation / emanation, all is One and there is no plurality at all. Furthermore, you lot completely and utterly neglect that this is an half-japanese game. Could it possible that ALL of the staff is composed solely of atheists, gnostics, and other heretics? Could it be possible that among all the members of the staff who ever prayed at a Shintô shrine, not a single one among them knows how to count? Hi, Fu (also pronounced Hu), Mi, Yo, Itsu, Mu, Nana, Ya, Kokono, Tari (also pronounced To). In Shintoist numerology, all of these numbers are associated with a level of the cosmogony. Hi (1) represents Ama no Minaka Nushi no Kami; and Tari (10) corresponds to the final state of completion of the universe ruled and made prosperous & fortunate by the Emperor after the Descension of the Gods. Furthermore, Gnosticism is only a christian confused barbarisation of Hellenic thought. It is a clearly complete fabrication entirely heretical vis-à-vis of Orphism, proof being that Orphic cosmogony is entirely different from gnostic one. Therefore, Gnosticism was made up by the christians. Therefore, no, the Erdtree and the Greater Will are not in the wrong, and diverstity itself isn't a mistake. The current state of the Lands-Between is caused by the centuries or millenia of stagnation since the Shattering of the Elden Ring and absence of an Elden Lord to reign upon it, the humans and other creatures having become unable to truly die (until Destined Death is unleashed) and have become instead husks of themselves ; the Lands-Between, like Lordran and Lothric before it, became the Graalic Wasteland, and the Elden Lord - like Gwyn, King of Cinders - has become the Maimed King of the Grail, unable to die but unable to live either, only to wait for a successor.

@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962

Жыл бұрын

You have failed to understand just how pervasive Gnosticism is as a preoccupation for Japanese videogame creators. There are endless games that reference Gnosticism, from Shinmegami Tensai to Persona to Xenosaga and Silent Hill. Moreover, Elden Ring is hugely influenced by Western alchemical myths. For all of your diatribe about Daoism and nondifferentiated states you have failed to understand how Miyazaki has been influenced by Western media. Ffs, Berserk is heavily influenced by Gnosticism, and it is a huge influence on Elden Ring, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls. Miyazaki grew up reading Occidental literature (Lovecraft, being one of the biggest examples). DnD hugely influenced him as well, as has other media such as movies, such as Coppola's Dracula and Brotherhood of the Wolf in Bloodborne. To deny these influences is to deny yourself a fuller glimpse into the creative process of Miyazaki's worldbuilding. Are there Shintoist concepts? Of course. Malenia's Scarlet Rot is not unlike the stagnating water concept used in Bloodborne and Sekiro. Are there Gnostic concepts? Of course. The Greater Will is like Yaldabaoth capturing souls in a material realm, not allowing them freedom. You only want to see half of the concepts; half of the Rebis.

@bladeer

Жыл бұрын

make a video

@tokoyonokuni4656

Жыл бұрын

​@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 Firstly, Alchemy is not gn*ticism. Alchemy is arabic word which literally means "the soil of Egypt", or in modern anglo "the chemistry". And that is because it so happens to be of egyptian origin in the West, Daoism also has its own alchemical tradition. Secondly, it is well known that in japanese, the vocabulary employed to define the Greater Will is both different from the one used for "the Outer Gods" - implying that it isn't one - and based on the japanese biblical vocabulary for the "abrahamic god". Runes, grace and gold, are all synonymous in Elden Ring: it is the main kratophany of the Greater Will. Hence, at least, the Greater Will is an "Inner God" corresponding to the Inner Order gesture - unlikely, that is, because the "Outer Gods" are just corruptors, and as Tolkien, Milton or C.S. Lewis would say: evil only knows how to corrupt and creates nothing -, and at most simply the Adya Shakti analogue of "the Great One". Visistadvaita Shaivism so happens to consider God and its energies to be unseparable - i.e. it does'nt matter whether the Greater Will is an agent of the One Great or if it has made "mistakes", such as "putting the butthole too close to the sex" (actually a real, scientist made, atheist argument against Theism) ; just enjoy fighting against Melina with your stats returned to level 1, Grace hating crypto-nihilist gn*stics. Ever heard of the Primum Mobile? Curious how it was never mentionned, even though the "Greater Will" is a "Will", i.e. the cause of motion ! Maybe that is because scholastics of both East & West are dead or agonizing, unlike gn*stic superstitious nonsense which just kept on spreading. All of those who side with the Flame of Frienzy or take its lore seriously are just copers unable to get out of their own nihilism and accept that the Age of Order ending is the only Good one.

@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962

Жыл бұрын

@@tokoyonokuni4656 you need to study the history of Alchemy and Gnosticism. They are entwined in the West. The Rebis itself is supposed to be Sophia (wisdom) and Samael combined together. Believe it or not, there is overlap in both the Eastern and Western concepts of Alchemy. You need only read an ancient Chinese medical book to see how Prima Materia and Cinnabar are the same constructs in a strangely similar alchemical process. When you say "Primum Mobile" you are just saying "Deus Vult!" You are strangely hostile in a theocentrically sensitive way. Your hostility is of the zealot, and seems to have little to do with Elden Ring's usage of Gnosticism and more to do with Gnosticism itself. You come as deranged, frothing at the mouth, and, frankly, silly. And you have my pity.

@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962

Жыл бұрын

@@tokoyonokuni4656 btw, the use of "Outer" in terms of the Outer Gods means they are outside the Golden Order, the Greater Will being no different than the other gods that have been supplanted in the Lands Between (such as the Rot God). The Greater Will is just another aspect of the Lands Between, not unlike how Sophia is an aspect of the Monad in Gnosticism, which gave birth to Yaldabaoth.

I just can't get past the uwu talk 😂