Have you ever thought about the verse that says, "We love Him because he first loved us"? When did he first love us? I'll tell you when: before the foundation of the world, when he chose us, unconditionally, in Christ, to be holy and blameless in his sight. Why any Christian would run away from this is beyond me.

@livingforjesus8551

8 ай бұрын

Where does the Bible say, he choose us unconditionally in Christ, before the foundation of the world?

@bcamplite621

7 ай бұрын

@@livingforjesus8551that’s what calvinists do. Take a verse and run with it

@ravissary79

7 ай бұрын

​@@livingforjesus8551we weren't even at the beginning of the world to be in him to be selected. Only 1 was: The Word. It just so happens we are offered the right to be in him, and thus partake in his benefits, and thus we weren't chosen on our own, but HE is chosen, amd in as much as we're in HIM, we are too. It fits the language of the whole chapter so much better than thinking you or I were chosen before the world, but others weren't, as if we're the special ones. No we're invited to be partakers in the chosen one, and thus becoming chosen. It says chosen in him. Not chosen (regardless of him) It doesn't say chosen TO BE in him. Only those in him are chosen...anyone in him is chosen. There's no respecter of persons.

@livingforjesus8551

7 ай бұрын

@@ravissary79 I fully agree.

Even more to prove that chapter 9 is about salvation in the beginning of the chapter Paul talks about him desiring that he could take their place and be condemned. That is salvific language and continues on through chapter 9

Chapter 8 is all about salvation as well, and moves right into chapter 9 because there are no chapters in the Greek. Paul is moving from talking about salvation and continue talking about it in chapter 9

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

love God then he predestines.

You even mention it! The King had to GIVE the man a garmet! The man didn’t have one so he was thrown out. That has nothing to do with his own ability.

@ravissary79

7 ай бұрын

There's no indication he was not given one. Apparently this is a reference to a certain kind of ancient near eastern wedding where all participants are offered a matching outfit... there's no one saying "you don't get one, you do, you don't get one, you do" if you attend at all, you can get one. That's why him not wearing one was bad manners... he wasn't particating, he's a wedding crasher. It would make no sense to withhold a thing from someone only to blame them for not wearing it, nowhere in the passage is it said the man kicked out was NOT given one, only that he wasn't wearing one.

You dodged having to walk through the whole chapter of Romans nine, You took Romans nine all over the place. Within its context you would never reach those conclusions. The whole chapter is about gods choice to mercy or show wrath on who he pleases. And the example is The individuals Jacob and Esau quote before they had done anything good or bad”AND “This is why I raised pharaoh up “because he is an individual! Paul even states “you will then say to me how does he still find fault, who can resist his will? “

@HarrisBeauchamp

6 ай бұрын

Brother, the whole chapter (and it wasn’t originally a chapter, btw, it’s part of a single argument which carries through chapters 10 and 11) is about Israel’s being cut off because of their refusal to believe, as Paul says explicitly in the last verse of the chapter, and repeatedly in chapters 10 and 11

1 Cor. 1 makes it clear that God has not chosen believers because they have believed or because they were superior to others. verse 30 makes it clear that it is of God that believers are in Christ. It is not of the believers themselves.

Have you ever thought about Revelation 5:9, which says, "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation"? Is it by chance that Jesus will end up saving people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, or was that the plan? Did God just get lucky or did he bring about that result by his sovereign power? It's not that hard to figure out.

"Paul says everything's working according to the plan in the scripture." Whose plan? God's? Or man's? Well, according to the teaching in this video, I would have to conclude it's man's plan. Am I wrong? (The statement quoted above occurred around the 33 minute mark of this video.)

You seem to have overlooked the fact that God is the one who called Abram out of Ur. He did not call anyone else?

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

He gave the other nations to the sons of God, who's job was to direct them towards God. They failed and were cursed to die like men. Israel was given to Christ to deliver the promise for all the nations.

@ravissary79

7 ай бұрын

Abraham wasn't chosen to be blessed in isolation. He was chosen to be a blessing to all nations. It's right in Genesis. The chosen are chosen to invite others to come to God. Look at Paul, he was knocked off his donkey, not to save him, but to save everyone else. He's called to evangelize, not "be saved". In trusting christ as his Lord, savior and king he received salvation, in accordance with his own description of the gospel to others, but his apostolic calling was to the benefit and salvation of others. Similarly, it wasn't about Abraham being special... did you know his whole family was originally going to Canaan? His brother died and his father stopped on the way to bury him and they never moved on. This town they stopped at was where Rebecca was from, from Abraham's family. Abraham continued on his way with his nephew and their shared households. But in the midst of that calling, only Abraham responded in relationship to God consistently and not simply to the family goal of going, so he followed through repeatedly, every time things got tough. God repeated revealed things to Abraham as his story went on. We don't know exactly why, but it seem that both Tara and Lot were more effected by family, loss and economics than any kind of supernatural allegiance. The covenant lead to a covenant people, who had a continuous long term relationship with God, and through whom God's moral law was revealed and Christ was born, through whom all of humanity could be saved. St no point in Abraham's narrative is it aboi5 1 guy being saved and no one else. Those aren't even the terms used to talk about God's covenant orvpromises.

When do you think God purposed all that He was going to do in His world? Eph. 1:11 clearly states that He is the one who effectively accomplishes all according to His counsel [will]. If that is true, His purpose must have existed prior to His working all things according to it. If we are the called according to His purpose, His purpose must have existed prior to the calling.

@HJM0409

7 ай бұрын

But what is His will? His will had to do with Christ and providing a way for all to come …

Well, I finally made it to the end of this video, and all I can do is shake my head and say, "Man! I'm glad I'm not an Arminian." Sadly, the lengths to which you have to go to deny what is clearly taught in scripture are on full display here. 1 Thessalonians 1: 4-5: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in Word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." And when did this choice occur? Before the foundation of the world. (See Ephesians 1:3,4) Was this choice conditional or unconditional? Election unto salvation, which is what is being described in the passage from 1Thessalonians quoted above, is clearly unconditional. (See -- and you knew I was going to go here -- Romans 9:9-24. Also Romans 8:29-30)

You don't seem to understand that God's eternal decree does not preclude the use of means to accomplish it. We seek to pursuade sinners because that is the means God has chosen to accomplish what He has determined will occur.

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

According to modern Calvinists means do anything to "dead" people. The only means that matters is God making them alive together with Christ so that they can finally believe in Christ in whom they were previously saved.

You need to ask yourself whether in Romans 11 Paul was speaking about physical blessings or spiritual blessings. Romans 9 makes it clear that what Israel was seeking was justification before God. They were rejected because they did not seek it by faith. Romans 11 states that Israel [the nation] did not obtain what it was seeking, but the elect have obtained it.

@livingforjesus8551

8 ай бұрын

If you read further into Romans 11, and not stop at verse 7, Paul said the jews was called the elect, but are enimies of the gospel. That means, for the past 2000 years, most of the elect went to hell, because they dis not believe the gospel, because they are enemies to it. Romans 11:28 King James Version 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

What you have overlooked is the fact that there are different senses in which people are "in Christ." In the mind and purpose of God, believers were in Christ from the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4 does not state that God chose Christ and we became the elect when we were existentially united to Him. The verse states that HE CHOSE US. Even in eternity past, God did not contemplate us apart from Christ. God did not predestine us to be adopted after we believed. That would be postdestination.

@richardgarcia3562

Жыл бұрын

Then how did they get out of Christ? When did they get out of Christ? How do you know it won’t happen again? And the verse says “He chose us (the faithful In Christ Jesus and Paul) In Christ”… where does this say He put them In Christ? Where does this say He chose them to be saved? Where does this say anything about being chosen to be In Christ? Again it’s why context matters. You can’t be chosen if you are not In Him..🤔

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@richardgarcia3562 1 Cor. 1:30 very clearly states that those God has called into the fellowship [union] of His Son 1:9 are in Him by God's doing. It is of Him that you are in Christ Jesus. Eph 1:4 does not say believers were chosen to be in Christ. It says we were chosen in Him. That is to say that even when God contemplated His determination to save a people for Himself, He did not even then contemplate us apart from Christ.

@richardgarcia3562

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBereanVoice I totally agree it’s Gods doing. How did He do it? Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved… Rom 10:8-13

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@richardgarcia3562 There is no disagreement that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is not the issue. The issue is why anyone who is hostile toward and hates the light of the gospel ever calls on the Lord's name.

@richardgarcia3562

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBereanVoice That’s simple the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation…

It appears from your misinterpretation of Matt. 21 that you think some sinners are better by nature than others. If that is the case, first of all, who distinguished them from other sinners who were more rebellious or whatever [Consider 1 Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7], and why to these better sinners not have a reason and right to boast in the presence of God.

Wrath has nothing to do with eternal destiny???? That may be the most banal comment I have heard in a long time. You might want to rethink that one. In the very passage you are speaking about, being a vessel of wrath is set over against being a vessel of mercy prepared beforehand for glory. Do you honestly believe being prepared for glory has nothing to do with eternal destiny?

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

We're you a child of wrath before you believed? Yep, you were! Nothing to do with election. "among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind"

Please show me where free will and a natural repentance that cause God to save and sanctify the apostle Paul? No sinners prayer. No seeking Christ. No offer by Christ as if Paul had anything to say or contribute to his salvation as a chosen vessel in the service of Jesus. No choice in the matter of his apostleship. No choice in the scope and sphere of his calling. No say in the manner of his suffering, imprisonment, and death. Paul says he is a pattern of salvation of all believers. The wicked and perverted mind and heart of man imposing his enslaved sinful will on the holy scriptures. We will see how all this plays out on Judgment Day when the secrets of men's hearts are revealed by Paul's gospel. I give all glory and honor to God, who saved a wretch like me in spite of my path to perdition because of what Christ provided on my behalf as Savior and redeemer. If God didn't intervene and deliver me from the power and curse of sin, I should have been lost and damned forever.

Debate James White !

Excellent presentation

It's too simple that's why it's beyond you.

`I think you overlooked 2 Timothy 1:9.

This is such an excellent look at the etymology of elect, chosen!!! Thank you so very much! I have been praying that give me more understanding as I am not a Calvinist because I read the Bible without being taught this teaching beforehand. This study will surely help with my apologetics.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

Andie, You might need to know that you should not base your doctrine on secondary or tertiary usages of words. If God chooses some sinners because they are choice and not out of the good pleasure of His will, those sinners have a reason to boast in God presence.

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBereanVoice believing God gives you no reason to boast. This is a false claim. Romans 4 makes it clear that man can believe in God and be credited for their belief WHILE giving all the glory to God. This is because it pleases God to save those who believe. Also, the Bible bests defines the Bible and elect is no different.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@huntsman528 Believe whatever feels good to you.

Apart from your faulty presupposition that blinds you to the truth, why would you choose a secondary lexical meaning for "elect" or "chosen" instead of the primary meaning?

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

Because scripture bests defines scripture. It's way better than the Calvinist dictionary.

@Halcyon1861

Жыл бұрын

You can just write a long comment. I would hate to get a text from you.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@huntsman528 The lexical meaning IS the way Scripture best defines Scripture. There is no "Calvinist dictionary." It is a shame ignorance isn't painful.

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBereanVoice Exhaustive Divine Decree is found in the lexical? There is a lexical for the Sovereign of Sovereign, Lord of Lord, King of Kings? You have to add so much in for Calvinism and nothing in for Provisionism. Calvinism you have the logical conclusion of fatalism, the lack of God's love, God being the author of evil, giant paradoxes everywhere. And the fact that nobody interpreted scripture this way for 1500 years. Even the Lutherans don't interpret the way that Calvinists do. Baptizing your infants regenerates them, just like Augustine believed.

@Halcyon1861

Жыл бұрын

What does Lie mean? It depends on the description for the word. Calvanist believe in a lie. That's one way and another, I lie down when I'm tired.

you think God choose you because you first chose Him? 😂😂

If your doctrine were correct, there is no way to avoid boasting. I am a believer because I was more excellent than those other poor slobs who rejected the gospel. Who distinguished you from others and what do you have that you have not received? Now if you received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 1 Cor. 4:7

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

You are chosen if you respond to the call and come clothed in the righteousness of Christ. The call and the righteousness are both God's, so there is absolutely nothing to boast about. You are not better than others because they were given the same choice.

@HarrisBeauchamp

Жыл бұрын

Berean, I don’t think that’s his argument. He would agree that believers receive their “chosen-ness” from God. We are not better people than our unbelieving neighbors, in some kind of intrinsic way. But we are given (by grace through faith) a valued status. So it’s not a matter of being innately better, but of being distinguished, set apart, valued, and called out by the one doing the distinguishing (namely, God). In this sense, believers are “choice,” because believers receive favor and value from God. Because they stand out to God.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@HarrisBeauchamp Do you not understand that if believers receive their "chosen-ness" from God because they were more humble, more pliable or whatever and have therefore chosen to believe when others refused, it is not God who has distinguished them from others but their libertarian free will decision. God in that case has no control over who will believe. He simply rubber stamps their decision. The question you need to ask yourself is why they stand out to God. The only conclusion you can rightly reach is that they have distinguished themselves by responding properly to the gospel. Such sinners would have a basis for boasting since they have distinguished themselves and "stand out to God" because they have distinguished themselves by their free-will decision. It seems to me you have to be truly obtuse not to understand that.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@huntsman528 Your comment is stupid beyond belief. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests that people are chosen because they respond properly to the call. It would be their response to the call that would distinguish them from others and, according to your view. No one suggests that you believe any sinner is more righteous than any other sinner. We all believe we must come to God clothed in Christ's righteousness. The issue is who it is that makes us different by initiating the application of redemption. We belive it is God who is the cause of our being in Christ (1 Cor. 1:300. You believe it is the sinner's free will decision [contra causal] that is the reason they are united to Christ.

@HarrisBeauchamp

Жыл бұрын

@@TheBereanVoice I see your point, but I think it is a non-sequitur. There are several issues on the table: 1 - Does God choose to save people unconditionally, or on the condition of faith? 2 - Does God control who will believe, or do people have their own agency in the matter? If the latter of each of those is true - namely: salvation is conditioned on faith, and people have agency to believe or disbelieve - does this give believers reason to boast?

You are overlooking the fact that Israel stood as a type of the New Covenant people of God. What God was doing in choosing Jacob over Esau was establishing the pattern according to which He has chosen His New Covenant people for salvation. They are the vessel of mercy beforehand chosen for glory.

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

They were chosen for service to deliver the promise! Man you are super triggered. What's your deal? So many negative comments.

@TheBereanVoice

Жыл бұрын

@@huntsman528 I become very negative when I see someone misrepresenting what others believe and obviously twisting the Scriptures to deny clearly revealed truth.

*qualified

This presentation could not survive a cros examination

@huntsman528

Жыл бұрын

Nice detailed critique! You convinced me!

There is a consistent error in these refutations of Calvinism, stated in the first 30 seconds of this video. The teacher says God has "picked out" those who will be Elect. No, that is not even remotely what Calvinist doctrine says. Rather, God creates individuals whose sole purpose is to be with Him in heaven, meaning there is no point at which they are picked out or chosen. That is why Calvinists, if they are honest, should mark through the words _chosen_ or _choose_ everywhere they occur in scripture.

This guy has no clue !