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@luckimonster2298

9 ай бұрын

That was a gud speech at the end mister Allen 😊

@jagnestormskull3178

9 ай бұрын

I think Thrawn needs to be an anti-villain, but he can never be a hero, anti- or otherwise.

@nathanoutdoors7981

9 ай бұрын

I just hope the Great admiral is a Great villain

@generaljimmies3429

9 ай бұрын

We seem to push so hard on how "diverse" we are that we ended up forgetting the things that made us similar.

@motherteresa8418

9 ай бұрын

Do you pay attention to adults they are more black and white

Honestly I wish Thrawn was the mastermind in the latest trilogy movies, rather than Palpatine

@GenerationTech

9 ай бұрын

Yeah would’ve been better and less of a time skip. But I guess all the ot actors were too old

@toremunkenwarf4468

9 ай бұрын

@@GenerationTechwell in Mandalorian it worked well with Luke.

@josephryman3799

9 ай бұрын

at would have been nice to see

@justincameron9661

9 ай бұрын

Exactly

@WoodlandDrake

9 ай бұрын

Well with the world between worlds, they could canonically redo the sequel trilogy

Thrawn would fit in the best in the Andor environment. Because I think only this show truelly managed to portray the "morally grey" in Star Wars so far (minus some few moments in the earlier Mandalorian seasons)

@coreyander286

9 ай бұрын

When it comes to _Andor,_ individual actions might be grey, but in terms of Empire versus Rebellion, it's more morally black-and-white than the main nine films are. There's no room for "the Empire had a point" in _Andor,_ in keeping with its antifascist politics. No matter how many questionable tactics Luthen Rael endorsed, the show knows he's on the only endorsable side.

@Lolux1701

9 ай бұрын

@@coreyander286 how is there a morally grey Empire in the OT? The empire there has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

@stevenschnepp576

9 ай бұрын

​@@coreyander286 ... Have you even _seen_ Star Wars?

@katharinabruns9480

8 ай бұрын

True

@drd444

8 ай бұрын

George Lucas didn't want Star Wars to be morally grey. It goes against everything it stands for. It's a series that is meant to inspire hope and optimism. That's why Andor just isn't Star Wars and no, Thrawn should not have been in it.

100% agree with the title. Thrawn was too smart to be the full on villian. He saw what happened in the original trilogy lol. He's a tactical genius who sees the value in playing both sides

@GenerationTech

9 ай бұрын

Yeah gives the fans a moral quandary and keeps them thinking!

@TheRezro

9 ай бұрын

@@GenerationTech Whole point of Thrawn was that he actually have reason to be in Empire.

@XJ0461C

8 ай бұрын

What about his enslavement of the Nohgri?

@songoku7530

8 ай бұрын

Thrawn is a villain

@warshield924

8 ай бұрын

The problem with this is the Thrawn in Rebels takes place before the OT. The Thrawn of the new canon is before the absolute failure of the Empire at Endor, he is taken away before the first DS is destroyed so none of those lessons are part of his arc.

The fact that Thrawn values imput and ideas from his subordinates and never feels he has the only answer speaks volumes to his character. A military genius who commands loyalty and not fear.

In the Rebels finale, Thrawn even said to Ezra "It was not my intention to utterly destroy Lothal but that is inevitable now". Looks like he was acting under the direct order of the Emperor.

@cad2988

9 ай бұрын

In “Thrawn Treason” He returns to lothal because at the end of Thrawn Treason Palpatine tells him to go to lothal and deal with the rebels then to go to Coruscant and have a “talk” with Palpatine about the location of the Chiss. It was implied that Palpatine was going to torture Thrawn and probably kill him in order to getting the location of the Chiss, Thrawn obviously was not going to give up that information and he knew exactly what Palpatine had planned for him. He was caught and could no longer fool Palpatine with his fake loyalty. The leading theory is that Thrawn knew of the purrgil and used them as his way to escape Palpatine. Thrawn was never a villain and never loyal to the empire he was just trying to get the empire involved in the grysk wars because the Chiss ascendancy was not strong enough to fight the grysks themselves. Thrawn was basically just conning and using the empires resources. He even acknowledges the empire is evil in the first Thrawn canon book.

@captiannemo1587

9 ай бұрын

People generally miss this about Thrawn and Lothal. He’s between a rock and a hard place and needs a way out. Ezra is the way out for Thrawn.

@Hello-bi1pm

9 ай бұрын

​@@cad2988where he acknowledged Empire is evil? I thought he thinks of it better than the weak Republic in the book.

@jacker90

9 ай бұрын

@@cad2988 I feel this, or maybe some how the Emperor somehow used the dark side to push and force Thrawn to follow though with the plan. With what happened in the finale maybe breaking that hold.

@christopherpoet458

9 ай бұрын

@@Hello-bi1pm Close to the end of the book, Thrawn and one other Imperial head to a meeting with Nightswan. Nightswan calls the empire out for its flaws, also reveals his involvement in many of the conflicts Thrawn faced through his rising career in the Imperial Navy. Thrawn also tells Nightswan that the only reason her joined the Empire was in an effort to form an alliance between the Empire and Chiss. Its in the third book I believe, and I don't know it line by line, but the important part is that Thrawn does acknowledge in this moment how evil the empire is. Does not quite use those words exactly, but you get the point. EDIT: I believe Eli was with Thrawn when this meeting took place and Thrawn was told by Eli that if the wrong people found out he could easily have been arrested and killed for treason. The conversation with Nightswan put all the cards on the table and what I think a lot of people forget is that if Thrawn believed the Empire would attack the Chiss, he would abandon the Empire or cause a bigger civil war to stop it.

Thrawn needs to be more than just a cold mastermind. He needs to be shown to be capable of having compassion for his troops, having respect for his enemies which I hope we see by complimenting the main characters and that he has goals beyond restoring the Empire. I love canon thrawn in the books so I really hope thrawn is shown to be more than just a villain.

@Lolux1701

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, he should kind of be a "Space-Rommel" lol.

@HHopebringer

9 ай бұрын

Would be interesting if we saw him with the two tractor beam technicians - the one who refused to accept responsibility for a mistake and the other who, while he failed, improvised and attempted to respond to a near-impossible situation. Of course... Rukh isn't running around after Rebels.

@ZPheenix

9 ай бұрын

@@Lolux1701 so u want him to be a mediocre general?

@1Loftwing1

9 ай бұрын

Probably won’t happen because Dave is just a new republic flag shagger😂

@biggsdarklighter0473

9 ай бұрын

​@@ZPheenix Maximilian Veers was pretty similar to rommel, concerning his tactics.

I think Thrawn worked really *too* well to show the allure of Imperial-style Law and Order. He was cool, intelligent, treated his underlings respectfully and encouraged them to move past their failures as long as they showed a willingness to do so. (I'm really hoping they adapt that once scene where a tractor beam operator attempts and fails to deal with a "Covert Shroud Maneuver", but is promoted by Thrawn and given the task of finding a way to deal with the Covert Shroud Maneuver in the future.) Unfortunately, I think a lot of people looked at Thrawn as a representative of the Empire rather than an extremely successful outlier in a system that otherwise did not reward leaders like Thrawn.

@marcbartuschka6372

9 ай бұрын

I would not be so sure. Thrawn was harldy the only Imperial of that kind. In Legends there was Captain, later Admiral Gilad Pellaeon, in Canon Grand Admiral Sloane. I think General Veers was a little bit similar, too.

@snear3os

9 ай бұрын

I see

@captiannemo1587

9 ай бұрын

But all of these are generally outliers in the considerably massive Empire.

@Hello-bi1pm

9 ай бұрын

Star Wars likes trashing democracies so much and portraying them as weak trash, that I'm surprised no one called it a fascism propaganda yet. Of course people will root for the guy who's actually smart than people who can't run their own government.

@hamstey1603

9 ай бұрын

He reminds me of a chiller version of Vader. If you REALLY look into what Vader does, 99% of his kills are for a reason and not just for the sake of pleasure (like something Maul and Sidious would do). He would also give you two chances to not fuck up and would respect you if you did your job correctly. The stormtroopers actually liked Vader and he even became friends with Officer Erv Lekauf just because he was so loyal and competent And similarly to Thrawn, he hated the nepotism that seemingly every officer had. The only difference is that Thrawn tried to promote the good qualities in officers, while Vader just straight up killed the corrupt officers.

What would be cool is, if ahsoka and thrawn are nearby, we see both of their flashbacks with anakin. Meaning, anakin teaching ahsoka how to predict an enemy or what not in the Clone Wars, and anakin teaching Thrawn about the jedi in Thrawn: Alliances. This would emphasise anakin being the centre of the skywalker saga after the sequels pretty much negated his story

@Darkwolf523

9 ай бұрын

I’m going to be sad if thrawn doesn’t use his most famous tactic against Ahsoka. Since anakin told him about that tactic that his padawan created

Thrawn is just a misunderstood hero. He is trying to save everyone from the enslaving grysks but no one realizes. The galaxy is liable without him. In addition, he has been shown to be a caring person to those close to him like Eli Vanto and Aralani as well as the fact that he helped and gave life advice to a Chiss girl (Thalias) during his early years in the ascendancy. He also acknowledges the empire is evil in the first Thrawn book. The only reason he infiltrates the empire is to try to get them involved with fighting the grysks who according to Thrawn “Can rival both the empire and the Ascendancy”.

@user-zk5ym9ut1j

9 ай бұрын

+100 . I had that feeling while reading old Canon books, and new Canon made him even more human-like and understandable.

@JacobFregonazzz

9 ай бұрын

Exactly

@stevenschnepp576

9 ай бұрын

@@user-zk5ym9ut1j Really? He never struck me as anything but a thoroughly evil man in the EU.

@emberthecatgirl8796

9 ай бұрын

He is ruthless and not beyond being corrupted by his environment. The difference in approach between Ascendancy, Thrawn and Treason is noticable. He changed the Empire, but the Empire also changed *him*. Near the end of Rebels he was barely holding on, overwhelmed by politics and corruption, and the utter incompetence of overambitious underlings. He goes for the plan with the highest chance of success and he was so disillusioned with anyone outside of his immediate bridge crew, that he thought bombing civillians to be the optimal solution.

@cad2988

9 ай бұрын

@@emberthecatgirl8796 Sorry but you are completely wrong with that statement. He was never corrupted by the empire. At the end of treason Palpatine found out he was never loyal and said and I quote “after you deal with the rebels on lothal you will return to coruscant where we will have a talk about the location of your Chiss Ascendancy” - (Palpatine, Thrawn Treason). This was right after Thrawn allied with Aralani in Treason. Thrawn broke the rules about collaborating with non imperials and especially non imperials of his species that he used imperial resources to assist. Thrawn was never going to give that location to Palpatine because he was never loyal to the empire and was still as loyal to the Chiss the same day he arrived in the empire. He infiltrated the empire. The leading theory is that he knew the purgils would come and used them as his escape from Palpatine. This lines up with why the star destroyers were so weak in that bombardment and why he coincidentally hit nobody in it. In Addition, someone like Thrawn isn,t going to be corrupted mentally. We know he is smart and we know he is loyal to his people, nothing points at him being corrupted but just simply pretending to be loyal. I will refer you to my earlier comment where I go into more detail.

Let me remind you of the only execution under thrawns command, he executed a Tractor beam Operator, who mistakenly locked on a Proton Torpedo, and failed to disengaged the beam before it impacted the Hangar bay of the chimera. He had killed friendlies, like the Saboteur in the factory. The Saboteur also, probably unwittingly, killed friendlies. So I think it was to a certain extent in character to execute that worker in that way.

@demonofgundams

9 ай бұрын

I second this, It's been a long time since I've read the original thrawn books...but he's not above using such a method to prove a point, especially if the guy is trying to cover up his 'mistakes' in some way (I think the guy from that scene you refer to actually tried to blame his subordinates). I will also state that Thrawn only had to do that 'once'. The same thing happened again to another tractor beam officer (but instead of a torpedo, it was a dedicate anti-tractor beam covert stealth shroud) where the officer owned up to the mistake, explained what he had attempted (because it completely fried the tractor beam's controlling computer) when Thrawn demanded an explaination, and Thrawn promoted the guy and gave him the task to overcome the shroud. It may not have been the best way to show this kind of 'nuance' in a child's TV show, but I don't think this is 'outside' of what Thrawn would do.

@biggsdarklighter0473

9 ай бұрын

@@demonofgundams Wasn´t that after luke scuttled his freighter, in order to escape aboard his X-Wing, and the officer had the presence to recognize the problem, and tried to remove the scraps that were in the Way? That the officer got promoted for his quick-thinking I mean? He also got the assignment to counter this maneuver, IIRC.

@demonofgundams

9 ай бұрын

@@biggsdarklighter0473 Yes, he did...the entire freighter was designed to be used as the shroud...Luke still had his X-Wing.

@codystell8523

9 ай бұрын

No, he executed the officer who trained the tractor beam officer. The tractor beam officer himself wasn't properly trained by his direct CO, leading to the CO's death

@biggsdarklighter0473

9 ай бұрын

​@@demonofgundams Oh, Ok, I misunderstood the comment then. I thought it was a shadowbomb he pulled in, which are essentially also almost invisible.

Also remember that the Thrawn in the Rebels show is a Younger Thrawn and part of the "winning" Empire, Post-Battle of Endor the situation has changed, he has decades more practical in the field anti insurgence experience. He has seen the failures of the Tarkin Doctrine, and the slow erosion of the seemingly endless Imperial supply lines. But he believes that the New Republic has neither the skill, logistics or the will to keep the galaxy from shattering and turning into a free fire zone.

@Gaetano2005

9 ай бұрын

i think that the inefficency of the republic is seen quite clearly in the first episode of Ahsoka. The commander of the MC80 lest Baylan and Shin on board arrogantly thinking he's just going to imprison them, wich bakfires quite badly

@awesomeas2

9 ай бұрын

Except that the Thrawn in rebels wasn't around for the fall of the empire, he was stranded in the unknown regions. Unless he somehow got picked up by the ascendancy

@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic1139

8 ай бұрын

He is right, new republic sucks and is even more incompetent than old republic, at least in new canon.

I would say the execution of the saboteur was something the original Thrawn may also had done. He could be ruthless if it was necessary in his eyes (he even destroyed a complete species and its planet) and he did not take the death of the men and women under his command lightly. Since Troopers had died due to the exact same cause it was both a punishment and a warning for others. Legends Thrawn might not let the guy explode but order Rukh to kill him, but he would hardly have showed mercy.

@coreyander286

9 ай бұрын

Destroying an entire species and planet _is_ kinda a big deal.

@kenle2

9 ай бұрын

Exactly. For all his "realism" fetish, Alan ignores evidence that doesn't support his political and social ideas. Thrawn was perfectly willing to kill in the original Zahn novels, he was just usually able to confine his war efforts to "legitimate" New Republic targets. The factory worker was acting as a saboteur- a clear enemy combatant, and making an example of him served to prevent future sabotage and, in a way, prevented other unnecessary deaths. Coldly pragmatic. Just like cloaking asteroids to blockade Coruscant- even if those asteroids could easily collide with a civilian transport. There's no way to do war "clean".

@Kadaju16

9 ай бұрын

Thank you! I constantly hear everyone say "Thrawn wouldn't do that. He's not vindictive, he's not that violent, etcetera"- especially during the speederbike demonstration scene. But what even Legends fans forget is that Thrawn had Rukh level a building AND attempt to execute the landlord for opposing him. All within the first chapter, if I recall. So yes, while extreme and Rukh-less, I do believe that said demonstration was well within Thrawn's character.

@KaiHung-wv3ul

9 ай бұрын

@@Kadaju16 Exactly.

@Prophetofthe8thLegion

9 ай бұрын

@@kenle2Agreed. I remember how when he arrives on Wayland he basically tells Pellaeon that the natives will probably try and kill them and when that does happen Thrawn acts shocked and immediately orders Rukh to level the place.

I think thrawn's quote about having power was explained in one of the books.But i don't know for sure i haven't read the new books, but i might have heard that thrawn wanted power to gain respect because that's how you gain respect in the empire.

if you read the thrawn assendency trilogy he is totally a hero doing everything not for personal glory or personal gain he does it all for his people

YES. Especially in the new Thrawn books, it is very clear that he believes he’s the good guy. He cares about his subordinates, he doesn’t like meaningless collateral damage, and he thinks his goals are necessary. If he is turned into just a smart villain, then they failed

@robinarmitage1376

8 ай бұрын

He is the good guy. He frequently gets into trouble for helping other people. In many cases, not even his own people.

@christophergillette7167

8 ай бұрын

@@robinarmitage1376 It made him so deeply facinating. Deep down, he has a moral code, a sense of compassion, and genuinely believes in the greater good. Makes it kind of tragic that he’s opposed to our heroes instead of joining them. I my RPG campaign, based on Legends continuity, I’m hoping my party will manage to get Thrawn to join the Republic instead of fight it

If you read “Thrawn Treason” He returns to lothal because at the end of Thrawn Treason Palpatine tells him to go to lothal and deal with the rebels then to go to Coruscant and have a “talk” with Palpatine about the location of the Chiss. It was implied that Palpatine was going to torture Thrawn and probably kill him in order to getting the location of the Chiss, Thrawn obviously was not going to give up that information and he knew exactly what Palpatine had planned for him. He was caught and could no longer fool Palpatine with his fake loyalty. The leading theory is that Thrawn knew of the purrgil and used them as his way to escape Palpatine. Thrawn was never a villain and never loyal to the empire he was just trying to get the empire involved in the grysk wars because the Chiss ascendancy was not strong enough to fight the grysks themselves. Thrawn was basically just conning and using the empires resources. He even acknowledges the empire is evil in the first Thrawn canon book.

@JacobFregonazzz

9 ай бұрын

Thank you for explaining. I hope Filoni doesn’t ruin thrawn. Thrawn is set up to be a good hero against the grysks.

@stevenschnepp576

9 ай бұрын

Thrawn was a villain. Having sympathetic motives does not make a villain not a villain. I can point to a number of terribly evil people throughout history who were doing it for their countries; Germany was full of them in the 1930s and '40s. Their being motivated by protecting their homelands against a greater evil (communism) and what they saw as greater evils (basically everybody else they rounded up and put into camps) does not stop the fact that they were, in fact, evil.

@cad2988

9 ай бұрын

@@stevenschnepp576CANON Thrawn is just a misunderstood hero. He is trying to save everyone from the enslaving grysks but no one realizes. The galaxy is liable without him. In addition, he has been shown to be a caring person to those close to him like Eli Vanto and Aralani as well as the fact that he helped and gave life advice to a Chiss girl (Thalias) during his early years in the ascendancy. He also acknowledges the empire is evil in the first Thrawn book. The only reason he infiltrates the empire is to try to get them involved with fighting the grysks who according to Thrawn “Can rival both the empire and the Ascendancy”.

@cad2988

9 ай бұрын

@@stevenschnepp576 Thrawn does not in any way even remotely have the same story or motives as a German nazi fighting communism. That argument is based off an analogy irrelevant to Thrawns completely different story. If you are talking about HTTE Thrawn then you have some bases to your arguement but canon Thrawn is completely different and not at all similar to a German nazi with “good” intentions. I suggest you read the 6 canon novels and actually analyze the lines. I mean that respectfully because you don’t know anything about Canon Thrawn if you are in fact calling his canon version evil.

I agree. He needs to have nuance & depth, not be 2D.

@nicholaswion846

9 ай бұрын

Though, we should probably wait until we actually get the live action product, since the criticism that he was turned into a cartoon villain, needs to be balanced by the recognition that it was, in fact, a cartoon.

@forrestpenrod2294

9 ай бұрын

Believe it or not all real life monsters like the Nazis were 3 Dimensional human beings - doesn't make them less evil.

If Filoni keeps Thrawn as a brutal villain like he used him as in Rebels, I'll be disappointed. If Filoni actually stays loyal to Zahn's canon novels, I'll die screaming happily for him.

@azrieldalusong5042

9 ай бұрын

I doubt that, this is the same dude who retcon Ashoka novel.(Or maybe not it's been a while)

@elrevan983

9 ай бұрын

​@azrieldalusong5042 nah he definitely retcon the Ahsoka novel. He even retcon Kanan's entire backstory from the comics with shoving him into the Bad Batch.

Thrawn was only a “villain” in the heir to the empire series because we saw Luke and the New Republic as the protagonist. Thrawn was never really a villain, he’s trying to save the galaxy from the Yuzangvong

@mrzirak792

9 ай бұрын

I honestly dont see him as a villain, book literally starts from Pellaeon and Thrawn's perspective, they are main characters as well, they are anti-heroes at least.

@OutrageousOutburst

9 ай бұрын

Well from my point of view the Jedi are evil - Anakin

@BugRib

8 ай бұрын

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." ~ Augie "Ben" Doggie

07:00 original Thrawn was that ruthless, bombarding civilians and executing a conscript for failing to capture luke. His cold logic means he wasn't acting out of Malice OR nobility.

If Zahn wasn’t onboard and consulting on Thrawn, I’d be wary (or maybe even more wary than I am now?). That he had to specify the Lothal bombardment targeted uninhabited/empty-ish areas definitely gave me the impression that he wasn’t 100% on how Rebels portrayed him - and yeah I get it, “kids’ show”, less nuance, but also heck kids aren’t dumb, lol. Filoni can call him the villain til he turns blue in the face (ha-HA!), but I’m sticking with him being antagonist/antihero until in character and proven otherwise. Don’t do our guy dirty, Dave.

I still say that if I were an newly minted Imp officer, Thrawn would be the one I'd want to serve under. He is patient, not prone to outbursts of anger, he would help you see how you could be more efficient and become a better officer in the process if you were willing to accept the lesson learned and heed his advice. Thrawn wasn't wasteful with the lives of his men or his resources. He is one of the few "good" imperial officers.

I thought Thrawn was handled about as well as could be expected in the context of a cartoon as the villain. Sure, he went a little overly villainous at times, but there is this tendency among us older fans to forget… he wasn’t an anti hero in the Thrawn trilogy… he was a more nuanced and interesting villain but he was still very much a villain and did plenty of ruthless immoral things back then too.

Really depends on if they drop in the Grysk and how big of a threat they are.

@brittanyjtaylor2638

9 ай бұрын

Yes! I wonder if we are really going to get the Grysk Wars…

All due respect, but I don’t believe that Thrawn was an anti hero the moment he first appeared within the Thrawn trilogy. He was very much a villain at first. I think Timothy Zahn made Thrawn more sympathetic years later after the trilogy finished with other books. Don’t forget, Thrawn would attack a part of the Noghri people world to set an example of power and obedience in a similar fashion that he did to Lothal in Rebels. Filoni took inspiration from that part of Thrawn character because his trilogy was more well known compared to the other Thrawn EU books and wanted to portray him closer to that portrayal.

@Gaetano2005

9 ай бұрын

He started as an anti-villain in the Thrawn trilogy, then Zahn made him an Anti-Hero in the hand of Thrawn duology

Thrawn, Eli Vanto, and Twilight Company as a whole have elevated Zhan so much in the new canon. I would love to see references to these great works since it’s unlikely to get references to the original Thrawn trilogy.

I liked that he was villainous in Rebels, but it suited Rebels, If they make him a cautious antihero this series is gonna be the future of Star Wars

@christopherpoet458

9 ай бұрын

The problem with this is that by changing Thrawn's character to be an Anti-Hero causes a conflict of character. Its the same problem that pissed everyone off with Luke when we saw him again in the Sequels. When you establish a character in a specific way and then choose to change it later, even though it may better fit the story, it causes confusion. Characters don't quite translate well from one series to another. The only way I can see there being some sort of cover up is that Thrawn apologizes for some of his actions on Lothal and stresses to Ezra that he was only being so ruthless because he was under the direct command of the Emperor and in part was causing issues to prologue his stay. Where we could then learn from Thrawn that he suspected the Emperor was growing tired of not knowing where the Chiss were and to avoid his death and torture at the hands of the Emperor, he escalated the conflict with the Rebels. Why not surrender though? Simple, Thrawn was not aware of the pergal and did not expect to loose. He was just buying time. That is how I would go about it. And it would wave off the character oddities from Rebels as passable. But we shall see. I am half dreading that Disney is going to 2D his character regardless.

@ttry1152

23 күн бұрын

​​@@christopherpoet458yeah. There was like 2.5 D at minimum. But only having 8 episodes to work with is a bit difficuly. They could have made it better as animation

@christopherpoet458

23 күн бұрын

@@ttry1152 Maybe. Personally, I don't think the type of production matters here. In the interest of not posting and essay, the issue I have made note of involves several factors, both in and out of SW universe.

@ttry1152

23 күн бұрын

@@christopherpoet458 i was ore reffering to the ability to have longer seasons ie more time to explore a characters motivation

@christopherpoet458

23 күн бұрын

@@ttry1152 Yea but the point still stands. Just because it was an 8 episode season does not mean it had to be. 20 episodes used to be the norm and still maintain good production value.

Thrawn is someone who wants to protect his people and be able to use his skills for the good in the galaxy, a lot of times he approaches things very conventionally… i think filoni is gonna have to be able to write a good reason why thrawn would be rebuilding the empire. he just wants to save and protect his people, unless he doesn’t think he is achieving it, i cant see him joining the empire. im genuinely afraid that he will get portrayed as some sort of tarkin 2.0

@paulrasmussen8953

9 ай бұрын

To be fair in the og trilogy he was also rebuilding the empire

@ttry1152

23 күн бұрын

Eh. He could be coming back to stop thr first order from beggining because he knows how bad it will be

Thrawn was never a villain. He has always been a Chis agent infiltrated into the Empire who needed the Empire to be strong and benevolent towards the Chis in the upcoming galactic crisis caused by the arrival of the space zombie army.

@stevenschnepp576

9 ай бұрын

It's a funny sort of not-villain who murders people in cold blood while expanding the power of the Galactic Empire.

@cad2988

9 ай бұрын

@@stevenschnepp576 Please do some research before saying things that are completely untrue. Read and analyze the Thrawn canon books before talking, and I mean that in a respectful way. HTTE Thrawn and The new canon Thrawn are very different versions of Thrawn.

@1Loftwing1

9 ай бұрын

Imperial were never the bad guys 🗿 long live the empire

@Hello-bi1pm

9 ай бұрын

The Grysk and Vong aren't zombies😂

I would love to see him being a Anti-Hero and Anti-Villain...

I’m not sure how it will affect his portrayal, but they made a big deal about his fate and the impact of said fate in Rebels, leaving open the possibility for Thrawn to come out a changed person after years of being missing. Idk, just hoping for the best.

"He never gave in into his emotional impulses. if he had any" it describe this character very well. And you are right about creators as well, every creator want to write his own story, even if it is placed in already existing universe, it is simply impossible to override this, because creators wich would blindly follow instructions, are not that creative at all.

I read those novels when they were first published and I remember the thing that made them so exciting for me, apart from 'seeing' Luke et al continue after the original trilogy timeline, was Thrawn's intelligence. It made him such an engaging, and believable character - he wasn't like Vader or the Emperor who could rely on the dark side of the Force if all else failed, he had to rely on his wits. I also loved the idea that a hidden remnant of Imperial forces had survived the rebellion and needed to be vanquished. Great books. I can't imagine Disney will do him justice unfortunately.

I've never seen Thrawn as an evil villain. He's always so logical and pragmatic in the way he deals with things. It does make him look cold and villainous though.

@lifevest1

9 ай бұрын

"Look guys. I'd gladly join the rebellion, the problem is we got these crazy mofos on the way to our galaxy and well, the Empire just frankly has better guns to fight them!"

@KaiHung-wv3ul

9 ай бұрын

@@lifevest1 "Grand Admiral Thrawn, have you ever heard the concept of Plot Armour? It's a construct so powerful the laws of the universe bends around it." "Is it possible to learn this power." "Not from the empire."

@Gaetano2005

9 ай бұрын

@@KaiHung-wv3ul Thrawn: i have brought cunning, efficiency and fairness to my new empire! A gigant ball with a big laser: I'm gonna end this man's whole career

I look forward to see what Grand Admiral Thrawn is up to in Ahsoka tv show especially when Ahsoka was looking for him specifically.

@TheRezro

9 ай бұрын

She was looking for Ezra. But Thrawn was last person who did see him. And I have suspicion where Ezra is.

@brittanyjtaylor2638

9 ай бұрын

Chiss Ascendancy?

I could see that Thrawn’s turn down the villain’s path in season 4 of Rebels being more… an experiment for him. “What would happen if I went down this path instead of maintaining the path I’ve stayed on? Would I be a better commander? Or would I become like many of my colleagues?” I could only imagine many Imperial soldiers and officers wanting to be guided by Thrawn and learn from him. If I had just graduated from an Imperial academy, I’d be begging to be assigned to Thrawn. From I saw on the info I learned from The Lore Master, Thrawn was someone who earned the respect of his men and had many who were proud to serve him. I had also seen that Thrawn didn’t exactly take pleasure in committing such evil acts, like when he was shelling Lothal’s capital. And I’m sure he didn’t take such pleasure in shelling the city. But Thrawn would do them if they served a purpose. I think that maybe Thrawn probably spent time away from the Empire, needing to reflect. There’s also the possibility that Thrawn went down the path he did was because of the Bendu’s prediction on Atallon. If y’all remember, the Bendu predicted Thrawn was going to be defeated and the embrace was going to be like cold arms reaching out to embrace him. And with the Bendu’s prediction, Thrawn got rattled and would lead to him making the mistake of leaving Pryce in charge of defense and rooting out the Rebels. Pryce may have Thrawn navigate Imperial politics like Wolff did, but I think in the end, she was more of an a** kisser than a competent governor and Tarkin treating governorships as if they were a consumable good didn’t help either.

@ttry1152

23 күн бұрын

Yeahhh. I can see thag

I generally love all Star Wars, but with Rebels I have to point out that Thrawn lost the TIE Defender prototype because his two stormtroopers guarding it abandoned their post to chase a pair of cats. And yell threats at them. "Hey! Get back here!" What was their plan? Were they going to arrest the Loth-cats and bring them in for questioning?

@HMASbogan

8 ай бұрын

Lol i never thought about that end game for them

I think Thrawn in Rebels was feeling a lot of pressure from the Emperor, especially with his TIE Defender program getting the axe, he was overplaying his devotion to the Sith and got handed his biggest defeat as a result. I think the biggest advantage Thrawn in Ahsoka has over Thrawn in Rebels is the years between and his proximity to Ezra, the one agent of chaos that bested him.

I think Thrawn's flaw is that he believes he knows best how to protect his people so he is the one who should have power. But what I think he is not able to see is that power can corrupt even him. Compared to operating in the ascendancy when Thrawn became part of the empire he had no one to answer to besides the emperor who gave Thrawn free reign. That and also being surrounded by brutal people he saw himself as compassionate. I think that really blinded him wheras in the ascendancy he had more compassionate individuals around him who brought out his better character traits.

I agree. As much as I liked Rebels and he had cool moments, alot of the time it just didn't feel right. And reading the canon novels it feels like 2 different characters at times. I really hope they fix it in Ashoka but I am having doubts that'll be the case.

With the Rebel’s Thrawn I believe you have to remember that he’s being portrayed in a more children’s cartoon than in the other media he has been in (both canon and legends) which can show more of his nuanced characteristics then Rebels. They did the best they could without turning off their target audience. Could he/they done better sure, but I understand what they were doing. I would expect a better and more “adult” portrayal of him in Ahoska and I think we will. Plus I think Thrawn was on a tighter leash in the Rebel era and he was preserving his power and using his considerable patience to wait out the Emperor/fools that were mucking everything up. Especially when he was defeated but not killed on the series finale. He is a capable and cold hearted liar and actor when needed.

I really hope Ahsoka is smart, fun and gives us something to look forward to every episode. Fingers crossed, it’s really good. Thrawn has to be awesome for this show to work.

Maybe the way Thrawn handled Lothal is the catalyst that turn him into the calculated and rational being you describe.

one of my biggest hopes for Thrawn is more on a technical side... i really hope they do a better job of mixing his voice in. he was always so quiet when speaking it was hard to hear, and if i had the volume turned up, there was a jarring shock when something usually exploded right away

@arwinaBlu_Kat

9 ай бұрын

I know. I had to have subtitles on just to understand him. He was so soft spoken.

I'm hoping as well that Thrawn is more the anti-hero. Recall that his sister was force sensitive and was a "Skywalker" navigator. Thrawn also has fears - he is afraid of the Grysks and the lack of action by his own Chiss gov't. He fears what he doesn't understand - politics. Daddy Palps is great at taking advantage of fears. I also think Thrawn wanted the Defenders for himself to help save the Chiss.

You know, you can be compassionate and a villain at the same time. Just because you have positive traits doesn't mean you're disqualified from being an absolute opposition to the heroes.

@Gaetano2005

9 ай бұрын

that would make him an antagonist, wich is different than a villain

So many of your points are ones that I make all the time. In Rebels, they could have put in any average Imperial officer, because that’s all that Thrawn’s character was in the show. He was a bloodthirsty buffoon. I have really no expectations for Thrawn’s character in Ahsoka. I don’t think that Thrawn was ever loyal to Palpatine. In Legends especially, he was using Palpatine as a way to get resources for the Empire of the Hand.

I am not sure Allan has Thrawn figured out. Thrawn in the original books totally did make examples of people. When someone in a building shot at him and his staff, he leveled the building. And when one of his officers made a mistake on the bridge that saw Luke escape. He had the officer killed in front of the entire bridge crew. I suppose I need to read the new books to see what has changed.

@Hello-bi1pm

9 ай бұрын

Zahn became more attached so tries to excuse everything bad Thrawn does 😂 It's his baby/brainchild now, he can't be that evil! When he was writing the original Thrawn trilogy he was still a new character.

@samyn_legrie

9 ай бұрын

In Legends yes. No arguments there. But in the new books, which are Canon, I don't think I can remember a single time this happens. There is a definite difference in characterization between the continuities - Legends Thrawn is very cold and calculating, while Canon is the Thrawn described in the video. In short, Legends and Canon Thrawn are two very different characters - probably because of what the other commenter said - but both are still tactical genius' and interesting in their own right.

@ttry1152

23 күн бұрын

​@@samyn_legrieallan described from what i know mix of the two characters in such a way it seemed they where the same to him, though they arennot

If they want to portray Thrawn as a really evil mastermind that neglects the deaths of innocents, they have to make sure they hone in the fact that Thrawn is not adept in politics. Someone like Gilad Pelleaon or Brendol Hux has to suppress the wasteful and unnecessary casualties caused by Thrawn’s machinations because Thrawn would NEVER sign off to anything unnecessary

I think thrawns behavior of rebels is reflective of the Tarkin doctrine it was not his forte but he understood the importance of consistently upholding the ideals of the empire in spite of his own ideals as long as it serves what he sees to be the greater good… also I think he should be a sympathetic villain not an anti hero

I first read the original Thrawn series in the mid 2010s. I was in ROTC at the time training to be an Army officer. I loved the character so much. He cared about his troops. I actually liked Thrawn so much I wanted him to win in the end and was heart broken when he was betrayed. He was such a well written character. I even tried to mimick a little bit of his calm, cool, and in control style in my own military leadership as well as his care for his subordinates.

I believe that Thrawn will return in Ep. 2 as a cliff hanger

I think you're slightly missing reading thrawn actions on Lothal, his actions on Lothal in many ways represents his treatment of the Nogree in the original novels. And in both cases his blind spot on the Nogree leading to his defeat so too does his blind spot on Lothal, it's his mistakes and mistreatment of the wrong people who ultimately lead to his undoing. He has never been a stranger to using fear against his enemies in the books and as many people get wrong the factory workers in Lothal were not his people but their acts of sabotage were in the literal sense terrorist actions and killed many storm troops. The angriest we ever see Thrawn in the novels is right after a double agent smuggler got an entire outpost of storm troopers killed trying to kill the smugglers considering working with the new republic.

Great, in-depth look at Thrawn. I hope Filoni had Zahn on the set during the filming of Ahsoka, because SW and Lucasfilm really needs a solid win right now

The Ashoka show is going to be the great test for Filoni... sadly I feel that Filoni already failed with Thrawn once... but I do hope Filoni will get him right this time... and that the show is going to be good enough for the normies..

If you haven’t read/listened to the Chiss Ascendency trilogy of books, I highly recommend them. Not only is Thrawn NOT a villain, he is one of the most compelling heroes in Star Wars. Flattening him to evil, yet competent, antagonist makes me 😢

I am very excited for this and agree that I really hope Thrawn is portrayed as an awesome anti-hero! (And, just for the record - I love the Andor series!!) ;)

If I was thrown through hyperspace by a bunch of space whales I’d rather not be a villain again

@GenerationTech

9 ай бұрын

I mean it was silly but if it creates more advocacy against aquatic mammals is that really a bad thing?

@Lolux1701

9 ай бұрын

​​@@GenerationTech"advocacy against aquatic mammals"? Lmao. Spoken like a true sith!

Dave in the tube top was exactly I needed today. Another incredible video.

Mel Brooks had it nailed back in the 80's when Yogurt proclaimed the sequel would be called "Spaceballs 2 - the search for more money". It is killing fandoms and hobbies of all kinds when the product is to serve the investors above the consumers.

@isaackim7675

9 ай бұрын

It’s a shame that we never got that sequel

@orokusaki1243

9 ай бұрын

@@isaackim7675 We're living it! 😫

Allen this vid was an amazing representation thoroughly and I've been watching your videos from the beginning... You really understand the situation better then most and I completely agree with your thoughts and viewpoints on the majority of the subjects... I genuinely loved this more indepth view of what we want to see with thrawn in this possibly game changing Star wars series! Good job man

> "Somewhere inside, Dave Filoni is a teenaged Togruta in a miniskirt." I'll never be able to look at him the same way again.

I could forgive the differences in rebels Thrawn, Because that was his Prequel era twenty years before his actual story arc with the character we know. I would not believe that his character was Unchanging from this first encounter with the Empire until his appearance in the original Zahn novels

Keep it up. I have much respect for your wisdom.

If the Third Galactic Republic and the Chiss Ascendancy established relations with one another, how much can they learned from one another? Also, I believed if done right, the Ahsoka series can saved Disney and restore Thrawn's face as this cold and calculating but calm and reasonable guy. And you're right, Alan. Killing a Rebel's sympathizer will only make the situation worse for the Imperial commanding officer, Thrawn himself included. However, if such a portrayal is the beginning of Thrawn's journey to become the Thrawn we know in the novels, then such a beginning is a good one, especially if it came from the corruption of the Dark Side.

My first introduction to Thrawn was in the old TIE Fighter space combat sim, and from there, Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy. So, with that said... I have hope that Ahsoka will will do Thrawn justice. But I fear that Disney meddling will see him destroyed in the same manner we saw Luke Skywalker's character ruined.

Because he is, he serves order, Not terror. He is not like Tarkin or the emperor. He is the personification of the benevolent dictator. He is not your friend, but he is not a mustache twirling, black wearing, cruel for fun, villain.

Thrawn was behaving as the Empire expected him. He would behave differently if not under the expectations of reporting to the Emporerer but answering only to himself so they can depict him more as originally depicted as they want once he answers only to himself.

Man you really get into detail. Love it! Keep at! 😊

I'll agree rebels could have handled him differently however I still believe "from a certain point of view" his actions in rebels could be seen as more logical than brutal. The bombardment didn't seem to cause too many casualties and I think it was more of a bluff because thrawn knew the rebels would not sacrifice innocents (but neither would he?). This one is stretch but the old man working in the factory seemed to be almost 70, living on Lothal I doubt the lifespan was very long especially under imperial rule. maybe he was sick so Thrawn chose him as the demonstration, or maybe it was simply because he sabotaged the line causing troopers to die so he saw it as simply fair.

at 14:00 or so. You are so right! Like, he doesn't even resmeble the charecter IN UNIVERSE at all. My favorite moments are in the I believe its alliances? book 2? Where he's straight jabbing at Vader, about being Anakin, while working with Padme and Anakin during the clone wars. I just LOVE it! I love how he wins Vader over slowly but surely, and eventually Vader leaves with a deep respect for Thrawn. It's freakin GREAT!

Maybe the Ahsoka series will have Thrawn become the 'real, classic' Thrawn. He will have 'learned from his mistakes' during Rebels (ie his 'cartoony bad guy' portrayal) and become the Thrawn we expect.

One thing that is so appealing about Ashoka is that we've pretty much watched her grow up...we met her as a young teen padawan all full of vim and vigor, then over the course of the Clone Wars saw her mature and "grow into her spurs". In the novel, the Tales of the Jedi, and later, Rebels, we saw her go from teen to young woman, someone who wanted to fade into the background to someone who returned to being a war leader, and all along she remained true to herself. Now, we see her as a mature adult, understanding the lessons she's learned along the way and has truly become what all jedi aspired to become.

We shall see. Either way works for me. I have come to realize that the reboot Thrawn has his charm and is a great foil to have. That being said, he will never be as vicious and cunning as his original incarnation in the HEIR TO THE EMPIRE trilogy done in the 1990's.

Thrawn was willing to do villianous acts if he had to. Remember he straight up killed a tractor beam mechanic for incompetence. The difference between him and vader was that he didn't punish failure, only incompetence. He actually promoted and congratulated another tractor beam tech for his creativity despite his failure when Luke esxaped a second time.

Possibly Palpatine was more directly supervising him at the end of Rebels so he used more sith like tactics.

Timothy made Thrawn a true Alien. Not just a alien with human feelings and needs. Thrawn was for Chiss, everything he dis was for his homeworld. You can not call him evil or part of the Empire. He used the tools he had to protect Chiss. He could not even wrap his mind around Politics it was foriegn to him. Loved his character.

Real talk with the Filoni analysis at the end.

You realy hit that nail on the head, about Thrawn and Feloni.

I share your worries about how Thrawn will be depicted. We have ample evidence of Filoni seeing, or at least writing, Thrawn as just another shallow, two dimensional villain - though possessed of some unique characteristics. And we have zero evidence of the Thrawn of Zahn’s latest trilogy being valued or even understood by Filoni. The Thrawn of 1991 was only “nuanced” in how he behaved towards those under his command relative to the behavior of other Imperial leaders like Vader, Tarkin, or the Emperor. Specifically, Thrawn usually avoided murdering subordinates who may have underperformed, and actively encouraged the development and promotion of promising officers. In addition, of course, were his exceptional intellect and strategic skills, which he leveraged into a string of brilliant victories in battle. These two unusual elements meant Thrawn’s command was authoritative, instead of authoritarian. His forces followed him out of well-earned respect and loyalty, rather than fear. But while that made the original Thrawn a standout in the Star Wars of the era, that version of the character is hardly nuanced by today’s standards. That Thrawn was, by his own description, explicitly motivated by his desire for power. And he had little regard for life, little concern for civilian casualties, and no greater loyalty than to his own personal agenda. If that’s what we get in Asoka, Thrawn will be sadly retrograde, and a huge disappointment. While it’s still possible that the Asoka series could be very good with the Rebel’s version or the ‘91 version of Thrawn, that evaluation is only sound relative to the sad flotsam of the sequel trilogy or Kenobi. Andor, meanwhile, has raised the bar. If Filoni fails to understand or incorporate Zahn’s updated, truly nuanced Thrawn, Asoka won’t be anything more than “good Star Wars.” And if it’s true that Filoni is more or less the sole voice of the series, the odds of an Andor level accomplishment, sad to say, aren’t encouraging. (As an aside, I hope you continue to add your political and social observations and comments. I confess that I reflexively scan all commentary for points of agreement and discord, and too quickly begin devaluing the product or person displaying signs of the latter. This is a nasty habit I’m now trying to break, and I find threads of encouragement for that effort in your sentiments. It’s as rare as it is essential. You help me remember that opponents do not have to be enemies, and that compromise is the beating heart not just of democracy, but of civilization itself.)

Disney likes to take complex well written characters and trashes them so that children can watch, however when I was a kid, and many moreover understood complex characters and it taught us to learn, grow and be better

Fantastic banger of a video

Character archetypes simplified: Hero- "right" things for the "right" reasons Villain- "wrong" things, for the "wrong" reasons Anti Hero- Does the "right" thing, for the "wrong" reasons Anti Villain- Does the "wrong" thing, for the "right" reasons

Thank you so much for this video. I’m in complete agreement. Thanks for being nuanced and honest.

Thrawn presents the same writing problem as Sherlock Holmes, to present a tactical genius you have to come up with actual genius tactics. Zahn's oriignal novels had the advantage of a mostly untold young New Republic where he could retroactively place pieces and create lore so that when Thrawn makes his moves he's startlingly effective. On Rebels the scale is so limited and the story so crowded it would have been startling for Thrawn to do anything remotely brilliant, not that he had to become a blunt force speeder bike exploder.

They’re gonna make thrawn the average evil villain and ahsoka the average good guy and do absolutely nothing new or creative or nuanced I’d put $1000 on it

@stevenschnepp576

9 ай бұрын

Well, look at what happened when they overestimated the intelligence of the audience for Mando Season 3.

@thereseemstobeenanerror1219

9 ай бұрын

​@@stevenschnepp576 Whenever I see a comment like this. That's usually a Attached to a series that can easily be just described as poorly written.

Since Thrawn is canon, we need Mara Jade to bring out of Legends if there is any hope for the Skywalker family. Not only this formal Palpatine’s Hand is a fan favorite. But this Force-sensitive is a Wife of Luke Skywalker and they have a son. Considered that the old Jedi Order held by hypocrisy, grew more stagnant in the Clone Wars, and being more stoic to believe having emotional attachment would lead to the path of the Dark Side, Luke decided to build a new Jedi Order where forming a connection with friends and loved ones can be a positive thing. When you think of Legends, it makes more sense in contrast to what Disney has done in the crappy Sequel Trilogy.

I really agree with your assessment of Thrawns Arc from the Books into Rebels. Thrawn was FRUSTRATED, I think he was going through a period, where he was like "Lets try the scorched earth approach for a bit, cause why not". Maybe he was trying to prove a point to himself, that no matter what he did, or how logical he was, the universe was just to chaotic to predict or control.

Well said on “financial people taking over and killing creativity” 👌 happening on various services not just Disney

I think the testing the sabotage run was more about drawing out Ezra instead of just about killing traitors.

3:40 as a great Bosnian Serb philosopher once said "War is where the old and bitter trick the young and stupid in to dying for them. I was very young when I went to war." Ok so it was Nico Belic in GTA4, but it's still a great line.

LOLLLLLLLL thank you for that little blurp in the thumbnail image. I thought that too and can't stop laughing now

I think Dave Filoni should incorporate more input from Timothy Zahn for the live action Thrawn portrayal.

So I've just recently been watching Rebels, which has been my introduction to Thrawn. And now it sounds like there's an even better Thrawn? Yay!

I don't think anyone at Disney has the capacity to depict Thrawn well on screen. He's too good for them ~

Thrawn would be a good ally against the Grysks.

@GenerationTech

9 ай бұрын

Or yuuzhan vong ;)

Andor is the best star wars show that was made so far

To be clear, Thrawn didn't start out as an antihero. He was the main antagonist of the Heir to the Empire trilogy. He represented the return of the Empire, but not under a Sith Lord, but under a military leader. Also, the plot surrounding the Ysalamiri and creating anti-force bubbles, Thrawn almost represented a galaxy cleaned of the force. Thrawn also perpetuated the lie the Empire fed to the Noghri because he found them convenient body guards and servants. I think it was only later when there was more about the Chriss Ascendancy and Thrawn joining the Empire to prepare for an invasion from outside the galaxy that he's been painted more as an antihero. Because now people reasoned, his ends justified the means. But Thrawn was always a villain before people decided, "hey, maybe Thrawn was right."

The problem is that filoni wants old thrawn, who's a smart warlord that cares about power first. That's legends thrawn. Cannon thrawn should join the new republic as the new power in the galaxy as a way to defend his home and the galaxy as a whole. It doesn't make sense for him to fight for a dead empire that doesn't hold any real power anymore.