All they had to do was actually plan out a trilogy. But instead they worked on them individually as they went on. Absolutely baffling

@TheScathed

5 ай бұрын

Disney be like: It worked for early Marvel. Why not here?

@webguy943

5 ай бұрын

Incompitency

@Tink2k

5 ай бұрын

They weren't in their own bubbles making the movies. They did discuss them. And there were other factors influencing the final movie - like Carrie's death. Did it require a whole new script? Only they know what the challenges were. Personally, I like what we got - especially the Force Dyad

@LoyaltotheNightsky

5 ай бұрын

That's basically how the original trilogy was done as well. Hence the Luke and Leia incest weirdness, who Vader was supposed to be vs what he actually ended up as, etc. I'm not sure the perfectly crafted plan thing people go on about is really the big issue. Sometimes that actually works out better. There are a variety of factors that went wrong here.

@brandonandujar2289

5 ай бұрын

@@Tink2k mental

What hurts the most about the sequels is the potential that was so daftly wasted.

@Dolphiny_Link

5 ай бұрын

100% agreed

@FazeParticles

5 ай бұрын

but why was it wasted?

@deeznuts9886

5 ай бұрын

Can we swap the word daftly with abhorrently?

@Turtle3000

5 ай бұрын

@@FazeParticles I mean you watched those movies, right?

@olafgurke4699

5 ай бұрын

@@FazeParticles Why was it wasted, indeed. Isn't that the billion dollar question? Why were Disney Lucasfilm given the equivalent of a Bugatti and decided to absolutely floor it into the wall of a graveyard?

The original arc for kylo would have made Luke’s decision to kill him make so much more sense as well, if Luke knew no matter what anyone did he would irredeemably fall to the dark side the only real course of action would have been to kill him. Not perfect, but still better than what we ended up with.

@Carlo_ReNews

5 ай бұрын

But already does make sense the way it is Luke saw a vision of people suffering through him (Him killing Han…) and wanted to do something about it. Just like in empire where he had a vision and rushed to the fast solution

@nathantudor5763

5 ай бұрын

@@Carlo_ReNews yet he decided to redeem his father who had already committed numerous atrocities? Doesn’t make sense that he decided to outright kill his nephew unless he knew he’d be irredeemable.

@Carlo_ReNews

5 ай бұрын

@@nathantudor5763 He thought about killing him which is in his character. Luke has always been someone who is at first tempted by the easy way, the way of the dark side. I mean even in your example he first tried to kill Vader before realizing that this is wrong. It is the same exact case with Ben

@nathantudor5763

5 ай бұрын

@@Carlo_ReNews whilst true, after attempting to kill Vader (which I will remind you he was told he needed to “defeat” by yoda before he would be a Jedi) he didn’t bugger off to some unknown out of the way planet to sulk about it and leave everyone else to deal with the fallout of his actions. That I think is more the issue here than the fact that he acted first on impulse.

@Carlo_ReNews

5 ай бұрын

@@nathantudor5763 Okay now we come to an other trade of Luke. I agree him leaving everybody else is a little weird but it comes from the fact that he thinks he caused this and that he is a danger to others because he is a Jedi. Luke would do anything to protect his friend and in this instance he thought him leaving causing the Jedi to die out would be the best option. And it makes sense when we look at how many times the Jedi have messed up and how many times the dark side had rissen again.

I think Ben should've been redeemed, while Rey drifts to the dark side. Then in the end it's (Jedi) Finn and Kylo against Sith (or maybe Dark Jedi) Rey, whose power is explosive but unrefined, leading to her destruction. That would've been sick.

@Dripularstein

5 ай бұрын

Ahhh, sith rey would've been a good way.

@FSousA7X

5 ай бұрын

Oh Finn, the character they forgot was even in the trilogy😂

@BlobThoughtsMTG

5 ай бұрын

Can't have a female villain. All women are queens 💅

@enzoamore8971

5 ай бұрын

I'd rather it be the other way around, but would still keep Finn as the main character.

@onlygoodgamesofficial

5 ай бұрын

All garbage

After seeing The Force awakens I always assumed that was where it was going. His character seemed so desperate to dive deeper and deeper into the dark side. I actually found it interesting that he was tempted by the light side, and would then take drastic actions like killing Han to push himself and resist the light. I wish they would have stuck with it.

@sammco6704

5 ай бұрын

The thing is, even in force awakens you can tell he is forcing himself down the dark, even when his tendencies don't necisarily reflect that. I think a redemption Ben could have worked if they played with the dicotomy of what he wants versus what his impulses are. What I wish happened is over the course of the trilogy, Rey's impulses push her down the dark while she wants to remain in the light and Ben's impulses push him down the light while he wants to remain in the dark. Eventually, both give in to their impulses and it becomes Sith Rey versus Redeemed Kylo, with Finn caught in the middle attempting to save his friend. I think that would have been sick and would have naturally reflected the arcs both of the characters seemed to be going down from Force Awakens.

@elan8213

5 ай бұрын

It’s such a terrible arc to begin with - the creators forced the shift against everything from the original trilogy.

@calebriver

5 ай бұрын

as an 11 year old who grew up on star wars when force awakens came out, i was hoping we would get that story. i was in the middle of liking and disliking it but as the trilogy continued i liked them less and less cause they really didnt know what to do with the characters

@wileymoore3914

5 ай бұрын

Same

@Fxrrxt2x

4 ай бұрын

​@@sammco6704 That would've been amazing. I had hoped they would do something like that at the time.

Kylo Ren was legitimately the only character to have some sort of character development in the sequels. Rey was already the *perfect* character and everyone else was sidelined or flanderized

@bombomos

5 ай бұрын

Rey was already the most boring character

@notjohncena6492

5 ай бұрын

Then there are actual "fans" who think any of the sequels are top 5 star war movies

@BaldianOfIbelin

5 ай бұрын

They bastardized Finn by ruining his sacrifice and making him the butt of the joke in episode 8 that's what made me give up on the sequels

@Sivrn-Val

5 ай бұрын

​@@notjohncena6492We don't talk about those creatures.

@xrstevenson

5 ай бұрын

And that's why they say he carried the trilogy. He didn't really, they just fucked up everybody else, Finn carried TFA so hard until Rey picked up the lightsaber, you can totally see the tone shifted from that point onward

I always feel sorry for the cast of this trilogy. Imagine the excitement of being in the new star wars, John Boyega's description was so heartwarming..... and then we got the final product. Sith Rey would be cool, redemption Ben would be cool if they showed why he deserved it in some way unlike in the films, good ben turning fully to the darkside over 3 films would have been awesome. Anything but Rian Johnston trying to make a name for himself by making insane plot, cannon and character decisions ruining the thing we love. Urggg you've got me going again. But to the point, yes I'd love this Ben to Kylo storyline

@hydratanksamari

5 ай бұрын

I do feel bad for them, the new faces of a modern legend, ruined to suite the egos of a few, hired by clueless twits who jut wanted to make back the money they paid to Lucas for his IP

@alexinfinite7142

5 ай бұрын

Yup. I'm with you

@knightatyourservice7512

5 ай бұрын

I personally think the problem was more on Lucasfilm and Disney rather than Rian Johnson. Like not making a concrete plan to stick with and having the director with different perspectives on how Star Wars should be and interpretations of the same story wasn't good planning. And I'm saying it as someone who liked TFA, loved TLJ and felt let down by TROS. Not to mention, Rian was the only writer for this movie. Like of course the story might be rough around the edges at the very least.

@willyum3920

5 ай бұрын

​@@knightatyourservice7512 its difficult to respond to that because you said that you enjoyed TFA and TROS. We could discuss what it means to be an objectively good vs subjectively enjoyable or compelling film maybe. I'm on the well worn path of opinion that TFA was basically ANH. It set up some characters I liked, was beautifully shot and had a cliff hanger ending which all would have been good enough if they'd followed it up in the next film. That's where I totally agree with you about Lucasfilm and Disney because if they'd had an overarching plan for the story of this character needs to end up here and this one there, it could have all worked.... HOWEVER; [insert absolute diatribe which you've heard/read a million times before about the inconsistencies in the ongoing plot and the misunderstanding of and disrespect of the characters we loved growing up, the ridiculous plot holes or the "somehow...." various things have happened, the ludicrous macGuffins that don't make logical sense, plot convenient lore retcons, the characters they dropped or didn't go anywhere or had no reason to exist like the Knights of Ren etc etc etc....] I personally think TROS was insulting to the fans love of Star Wars overall as Darth Edge Lord Rian Johnston actively undermined almost everything that had come before on purpose. TLJ was a result of that and Disney's/Lucasfilm's lack of planning as you say, a desperate attempt to undo what RJ did and ultimately just insulting to our intelligence.

@Soundwave142

5 ай бұрын

Yeah me too. I do feel bad for John Boyega especially despite his enthusiasm, honest effort and acting skills, he was brought on so that Disney can check off their diversity checklist and then shoved into the background after the first film. Adam Driver did put out his best effort as well and I find him more interesting than Rey. Regarding "Sith Rey," I do not remember what video it was, but the guy said that these "Mary Sue" characters that have it all because they "deserve it" or "superior from the get go," are more akin to villains than heroes.

Kylo being basically Anti-Vader would have made SO MUCH MORE SENSE

@maaingan

4 ай бұрын

Right??? Why was he never taught that Darth Vader actually died *defying the Emperor* as Anakin Skywalker… a Jedi?!? He was trained to be a Jedi by the son of Anakin, and it never came up?!? His hero was a fuckin Jedi, why does he spend 90% of the trilogy trying to emulate the embodiment of the ultimate redemption arc if he’s supposed to be evil?? He should have been tempted by the dark side exactly like his uncle and grandfather were, but ultimately give in to his compassion. Rey should have been the one that comes off as relatable, being a poor nobody with nothing- who is then corrupted by her newfound ability to claim anything she wants as hers using her strength to take from others and cause despair because of her origins as a wounded, lonely, dejected urchin. Both characters would have been not only watchable, but endearing and timeless

ANYTHING would’ve been better than what we ended up getting.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

Including The Force Awakens itself.

Most amazing take away from this video: there was "a plan" for the sequel trilogy.

@pauldraper1736

5 ай бұрын

then somehow palpatine returned

@_.suzaku.__

4 ай бұрын

TFA is decent, but Rian Johnson killed everything

@mattr.1887

4 ай бұрын

😂😂

@JAnx01

4 ай бұрын

@@_.suzaku.__ No, it's hot garbage.

@Cujo5

4 ай бұрын

@@_.suzaku.__TFA was the beginning of the mess.

I actually think his struggle between light and dark side was the best aspect of the trilogy. Gave him so much character.

@benmorgan9748

5 ай бұрын

That's like 50% of Star Wars' characters though. Pretty boring imo

@colin857

5 ай бұрын

Someone else made a good point too that it also made Luke's Character worse...if what he saw ended up being true, then it justify his feeling to kill him...instead he just made Kylo who he becamd

@Tink2k

5 ай бұрын

Visions are tricky things. Kylo did kill Han. Maybe Luke saw other things in the vision that either we didn't see onscreen or Rey's influence (after her mind was opened to the Force) changed Kylo / Ben's future@@colin857

@codythefriendlyskunkboy1780

5 ай бұрын

@@benmorgan9748 At least he was actually a character tho. Rey is some random nobody and Finn..idk he was the main character for like most of Force Awakens then became a side character (haven't watched those movies in years)

@mtpstv94

4 ай бұрын

What character. All the characters were a joke. Irredeemable to what they did to Star Wars in every way.

sith rey would be so cool, imagine if rey went proper evil palpatine mode. maybe palpatine would be like hehe kill me, not fully expecting her to kill him, but she just straight up rushes him with so much raw power he isn't expecting it, then she goes evil, and has to fight her old friends

@kecksbelit3300

5 ай бұрын

that would suck rly hard to be honest. Rey would still be a mary sue and now the most powerful beeing dies even easier. The only reason he wanted her to kill him was so he could transfer his essence into her anyway.

@starwarsjoey228

5 ай бұрын

@@kecksbelit3300 yeah but the dark side makes u unlock Ur powers and really quickly, like savage, so it would be ok for teynto be Mary sue if we used dark side. Plus I do feel bad for palpatine, maybe if it was snoke instead. Tbf palpatine ried even easier in rotj

@andrewmalinowski6673

5 ай бұрын

It seemed more like resurrecting Palpatine was a rushed decision, especially since all they had to go with was; "Palpatine's back somehow" and didn't even try to explain it. Almost all the concept art I've seen with Sith Rey seemed better than what we got in Episode IX, but her brief "turn" towards the Dark Side seemed more like a means to appeal to fans and only made it worse than the opening of VIII with the weird bombing run

@kecksbelit3300

5 ай бұрын

@@starwarsjoey228 it's not cause he used the dark side it's cause he got talsins magic

@starwarsjoey228

5 ай бұрын

@@kecksbelit3300 I think both, look at nightfall ani

I always wanted Ben to go to the light side and Ray to go to the dark and Ben bring her back, at the cost of his own life, mirroring Luke and Anakin. When episode 7 came out, I also really wanted it to have been Han that ignited Kylo’s lightsaber, sacrificing himself so his son wouldn’t cross that line and go full dark side. Snoke would congratulate him for killing Han and we’d watch Kylo lie and struggle with the fact he DIDN’T kill his dad, and that sacrifice would redeem him, like a reverse of Darth Vader and Luke. Could have been so much better.

I always got the feeling this is where Kylo's character was written to go because it felt like there was this gap of a true villain that Kylo was meant to fill by the third movie. I really thought that Kylo was going to go full Vader (or worse) by the third film, and I guess I was right according to the original intent, but wrong about what actually ended up happening.

I think the redemption was the best idea but should have been executed better/Rey falling to the dark side which ends up making him realize his own mistakes and he has to form an uneasy alliance with Finn and Poe to bring her back. That dynamic would have set up great SW style banter potential between Poe, Finn and Ben as well.

@miles7224

5 ай бұрын

I think keeping Ben as evil would've also worked really well. We often see Jedi be tempted by the dark side, but very rarely do we see a Sith tempted by the light (at least in main canon). All we'd need then is for Rey to keep the Palpatine name and stick to the messaging throughout the film that your ancestry doesn't matter.

@jaminallen3119

5 ай бұрын

Ooh yeah I could see that being really good! You should've given them the plot outline. Would've been far better 👌

@trueandika

4 ай бұрын

Redemption was a terrible idea. Laughable. And it was executed according so.

@Commander23c

4 ай бұрын

Leave the quips out of it, please. We need more Star Wars like Andor…

@serteshsardrakal2272

4 ай бұрын

I think I heard a similar script somewhere before? I think it was a game called kotor with a guy called revan.

Based on what he's said, I do see they were trying to go that way in hindsight. Episode 9 was clearly rushed and should have taken more time, I always felt like I was watching a draft rather than a final copy.

@alduintheanti-dragonborn

5 ай бұрын

Disney wanted their holiday season release.

@Pingthescribe

5 ай бұрын

@@alduintheanti-dragonborn Another thing that someone pointed out to me is that each movie was an apology for the last instead of doing it's own thing. People didn't like the prequels? Let's make TFA like Ep IV! It's too same-y? Let's shake things up! People don't like that? Let's play it safe! They were too concerned with being people pleasers and seemed to think they could avoid SW fan's famously unrealistic standards.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

@@Pingthescribe TFA was literally a cheap ANH knock-off with Disney crossing their fingers hoping nobody will notice. At least prequels did their own thing, even if they sure could've ended up being more polished, but TFA not only wasn't anyhow inventive, it was downright insulting to watch.

@zoyadulzura7490

4 ай бұрын

@@LecherousLizard The similarities to ANH bugged me, but after seeing TFA, I was still hopeful for what would come after. Then TLJ came, and I still can't bring myself to watch TRoS. TLJ dashed all my hopes for the trilogy. It felt like someone stamping all over Star Wars. I feel bad for many of the people involved (including the actors, who have caught needless blame), who were bringing their A-game but still had to essentially follow the orders of those in control.

I think I would have liked to have heard more of what Adam Driver actually said and not what you said he said

@Criner05

3 ай бұрын

That's what I thought this video was gonna be.

That was my original take when I saw TFA. It felt like a good angle to go with - the idea that he didn't WANT to be saved. Let people try to talk him down, try to bring him back, and every time he swats their offer aside. Would it have sucked that Han & Leia's only kid became a monster? Yes, it would've. But at least the story would've been interesting and more original. (Actually, that sums up a lot of arguments about the Sequel Trilogy. Almost any direction would've been better than no direction, and that's what we got.)

@3Rayfire

5 ай бұрын

In the EU they had three kids, and only one fell to the Dark Side.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

My original take when I saw TFA was that I wanted to get a refund. The worst part about that is that I pirated the movie. That's how awful it was. 10 minutes in I expected it to go nowhere and, oh, boy, if I wasn't proven right. And later I learned the next two movies managed to be even worse, ha!

Kylo was always played too emotional and unhinged like an edgy teen not getting their way. I was never worried when he showed up on screen nor was I intimidated by anything you did, cut to his "opposite" Vader and every time he shows up you feel fear because you know he is in control and ruthless.

@jamiekay4210

5 ай бұрын

That scene where he threw a tantrum and slashed those computers up in TFA made me roll my eyes. Not even Anakin, with all his brooding and sulking throughout the Prequels, acted out like a petulant child the way Kylo did. Anakin had his verbal jousts with the other Jedi sure, but he never pulled out his lightsaber and started hacking up things in the Jedi Temple like a brat when he was denied the rank of Master. The two characters are night and day, but not in the way Disney intended. One was well written with a complex emotional backstory that would inform his eventual transformation into Darth Vader, and the other was a Vader wannabe who acted like he was written by an angsty teen writing a SW fanfic.

@thatzachguy76

5 ай бұрын

@@jamiekay4210 which unfortunately he seems to have been written by just such a person lol Disney writers are either edgy wannabes or pacifist "everyones opinion has weight and importance no matter what" types, theres really no inbetween and it shows in their writing and "story boarding" if you can call it that lol

Honestly the problem with the whole sequel trilogy was they had no direct path they wanted to follow it was all over the place with no real direction and they just went with whatever they thought would be good without actually reading it out loud to themselves to see how bad it actually was.

@zoyadulzura7490

4 ай бұрын

That's what happens when money is the ultimate goal vs. fulfilling a vision, like George Lucas had done with the (flawed but loveable) prequels.

The kiss in the last scene was legitimately the most "what the fuck" moment I have ever experienced.

@zoyadulzura7490

4 ай бұрын

I have not see the movie, but this made me laugh.

@javierlopez9789

Ай бұрын

I remember people in my theater booing the moment thay happened.

Adam playing an absolute sadistic evil character sounds so awesome. They wasted Adam as an actor it's sad..

It would’ve been more tragic story wise. The love of his parents and family wouldn’t have been enough to save him. Would’ve been great to se them break that trope of a family member or friend becoming good again over the love of their friends and family.

If you have a villain kill Han Solo, do it to the bitter end. That scene meant that there was no coming back from the dark side for him, he killed his father, the same way there would be no coming back for Vader if he killed Luke.

@thewhyzer

4 ай бұрын

Vader killed Obi Wan, who might as well have been his father.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

@@thewhyzer The joke is that Vader didn't, in fact, kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan became a Force ghost before Vader's strike reached him. Vader himself was perplexed at this outcome when he inspected Obi-Wan's cloak afterward.

@thewhyzer

4 ай бұрын

@@LecherousLizard I thought Vader killed him and the corpse disappeared immediately afterwards.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

@@thewhyzer Watch that scene again. When Obi-Wan notices Luke safe on the side, he smirks, assumes a position as if he was meditating. Vader swings at him, but Obi-Wan poofs out of existence before Vader has a chance to strike him and his lightsaber only hits the cloak, then perplexed Vader moves the cloak with his boot wondering "What the fuck just happened?" I mean, we see in later movies of the Original Trilogy that lightsabers don't completely vaporize things while leaving clothes OK and considering all the edits Lucas did over the years, this one seems like quite a serious oversight, don't you think?

@thewhyzer

4 ай бұрын

@@LecherousLizard I'm not saying the light saber vaporized him, I'm saying he killed Obi Wan, and Obi Wan's body vanished. I bet Vader's body vanished too after he died from Palpatine's lightning and/or the fall.

I would rather see Kylo Ren redeemed than falling into the deep end. However, I would rather have Duel of the Fates for Episode 9 and my ideal Episode 9 would be both versions merged together (Final battle on Coruscant and rewritten Rey vs. Kylo Ren arc).

@andrewmalinowski6673

5 ай бұрын

At least that sound better than what we got, but almost half of Episodes VIII and IX go from semi-canon to "WTF just happened?" or "how is that even logical in-universe?" as if the screenwriters didn't even know the basics of the franchise

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

I'd rather have for the protagonist to have an actual personality and show some semblance of growth, instead of having a revelation she's perfect at everything she do.

I had several different theories for Kylo... Redemption Arc, Reverse Vader and (my personal favorite) Morally Grey Double Agent who only did what he did to get close to Snoke in order to assassinate him... Either way, I think any of them can work. They just needed a general outline to start with and then stick to it with a team of writers who all know and love Star Wars. Perhaps having George Lucas as a semi regular consultant. Same thing with Reys lineage. Is she descended from a Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, Palpatine, Yoda (lol), New Character? Just have a plan about it!!!!

@_.suzaku.__

2 ай бұрын

I'm tired about redemption arcs, there is a lot in the Star Wars lore

I think the redemption arc worked only because Rey's character was so frustrating to experience, but if done right, I could see how the original vision could be better, but from what we had, Kylo Ren's story was the best out of all of the Sequels.

This is the least of the things making Disney look like a joke, plus all of this was well known before today by anyone paying attention. Anyone who understands storytelling knows the two directors where directing against each other. They literally made a bi-polar franchise.

@cuddlecakes7153

5 ай бұрын

"bi polar franchise" lmao

@tacidian7573

5 ай бұрын

From now on till doomsday, I'll refer to the sequel trilogy as the bi-polar trilogy.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

The worst Rian Johnson was, was being the final nail in the coffin. A symptom, not a problem. If you _actually_ paid attention, you'd realize from the very first minutes of TFA (personally it took me 10 minutes) that the sequel trilogy would be a disappointment and you should only take bets how bad of a disappointment it'd be.

@citizenvulpes4562

4 ай бұрын

@@tacidian7573 please don't, I don't want my mental illness to be associated with this mess, thank you.

@tacidian7573

4 ай бұрын

@@citizenvulpes4562 👍🏻👍🏻

Redeeming Ben was actually one of the few things I still like about Rise of Skywalker. The way it was handled was pretty bad, but I'm still glad they went in that direction.

Ben Solo’s redemption was the one thing they did right in the rise of skywalker

@javierlopez9789

Ай бұрын

And then they ruined it by killing him

No I’m very glad they didn’t do that. Ben should be redeemed.

I think the biggest problem was when they made snoke a nothing villain. I think it would have made more sense if he was a robot being controlled by some cultists who were trying to resurrect palpatine. Maybe they needed some a palpatine's dna to finish the cloning process, and that's why they needed rey to go to exogul. There's so many things wrong with 8 & 9 that I think it's pointless in trying to single them out.

@Soundwave142

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, it was like a bag of hot air. They could have made him Palpatine that did not fully form until the last film.

@Azure_Fire

5 ай бұрын

If I was writing it, I would have made him a former apprentice of Darth Plagius who was ousted by Palpatine. He's all scarred from the battle to two would have had to become Plagius's true apprentice.

@rafikshaheed4271

5 ай бұрын

Star Wars Ep VIII messed everything up by killing Snoke. If he survived, he could have had a significant presence in the last film, and part of Palpatine's will (maybe a Sith cultist, who sought out to complete Palpatine's life work while trying to transfer Sidious's consciousness into his body, thereby sacrificing his life so that the Dark Lord could live).

@TheRealDarkSide830

5 ай бұрын

I actually think the concept of Snoke being a decoy was interesting, just poorly executed.

It'd be more interesting if Luke was the one who wants to redeem Kylo Ren while Rey believes he is irredeemable.

For me it’s clear that ep 9 was a mess. Where do we have Kylo at the end of Ep8. He reached out to Rey maybe the only one he felt connected to that understood him a bit. And also maybe he even had som romantic feelings for here. He was both friendzoned. Friend denied and professionally denied form her. He fails in his fight with Luke. He gets pinched about the killing of his father. He is the most powerful man in the galaxy. And all gates him. Both the enemy and his own people. He is to most lonely and scared person in the galaxy. What would such a man / dictator do. Of course try to increase his power over the galaxy. And over himself mentally / force. And of course try to kill off anyone who hurt him. And all this. Thrown away. People complain that snoke was thrown away. For me he was not. Smoke was killed so Kylo could emerge. But then they really wasted him.

@bobafett4265

5 ай бұрын

You're not wrong there, it could've been a great moment to actually do something greater with Kylo but they pissed that away like Disney did with the Sequel Trilogy as a whole, it had potential starting out, but when episode 8 hit, there was no way they were going to fix it from there.

@litjellyfish

5 ай бұрын

@@bobafett4265 I actually is ok with parts of EP8. Ok it was a mess but not all bad. Pure personally I edited it down over 30 minutes. Removed over silly non fitting jokes. Improved the pacing (the whole casino thing went totally out) Rose do not exist in this version. Leia do not fly etc. But Luke still drinks Blue milk. Nothing wrong with blue Milk. (Many complain it’s just look gross and should evoke gross feeling - maybe. But narrative wise it’s actually there to show what life Luke lives there. He also drinks it more gross to provoke Rey. Like ok I’ll show you stuff but I really don’t care or trust you or only what you can tolerate. Basically a screening test.

@elcarlxd4486

5 ай бұрын

​@@litjellyfishi hated the whole casino side story except phasma's death

@litjellyfish

5 ай бұрын

@@elcarlxd4486 yup me too that is why I removed it. And it affected so little in general so for me it proves it had nothing really to do in the movie. If a narrative section of over 15 minutes is so easy to take out without affecting other parts then for me it should be taken out

They basically had a golden goose. They didn’t want to take the time and prepare the entire plotline. Instead they grabbed the goose and squeezed three scrambled eggs out of it.

Mmmmmmmmm. Nah, Kylo Ren’s arc was one of the only things I liked about the Sequels. Keeping him evil probably would’ve lessened how much I like him.

I honestly feel so vindicated in my feelings of both TLJ and TROS, hearing this. One of the biggest aspects of TLJ that I genuinely love to this day is its decision to make Kylo usurp Snoke and take the role of Supreme Leader. I had such high hopes that Kylo's arc would be like a fun house mirroring of Luke's. Instead of struggling with the dark side and choosing the light, Kylo struggles with the pull of the light and delves into darkness. And I was so beyond disappointed when TROS gave him another generic light side redemption. Now, knowing that Kylo remaining evil was the original plan and his redemption was just thrown in when they came around to TROS, makes me feel quite legitimized in my feelings.

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

What are your feelings about TFA then? Because, personally, after watching TFA I was absolutely done with the Sequel Trilogy... and from the looks of it, it'd appear I was 110% right in my assessment.

Redeemed Ben Solo was one of the best things in TROS, it was a good change.

It was easy to guess that was the original direction, however certain elements I think just didn’t add up. With Anakin, as much as some have mocked Episode 1-3, it was a development of watching a young boy traumatized by the death of his mother his only family, to doing what it took to save the love of his life from a doomed fate of death, only to be the key to killing her. We understood why he went mad, how little he grasped the discipline of the Jedi to control his emotions, to not understand how his emotions getting out of control clouded his judgment to form an alliance with one of the darkest creatures in the galaxy, tainting his soul that it was thought to be lost. By Episode 4, the audience previously knew little of this background but grasps of it, yet we see the evil Darth Vader carries. The issue I had with Kyle is that he didn’t seem dark, but lost. And how that affected Luke’s story really shows how much those responsible for the direction of the Star Wars series under Disney had no respect for the previous work of the whole Star Wars world. It was bound to fail for not respecting the history of the characters and understand how that shapes them, Luke’s story was about a boy turning into a man knowing his legacy was out in the wide galaxy, unknowingly that it was his faith in his father to regain to the good in him is what saved the galaxy from a threatening authoritarian regime. It’s very difficult to understand how Luke was left with some optimism about the future to becoming a pathetic jaded recluse with no interest in the force. There’s times when history repeating itself works in certain timelines, but honestly they really butcher it with the recent franchise.

Despite the mess of the sequels, I do think if Kylo has not been redeemed it would have been even worse. The idea that after all Anakin went through, his lineage would just go bad with no real reason behind it, is pretty depressing.

More justification to need an official animated project based on Duel of the Fates. It won't be perfect, but if it means doing the post-Crisis treatment for the Star Wars Alt-universe... and besides, animation and voice acting need more love than oversaturated live action.

Here's how I would have handled Rise of Skywalker. We open with Luke waking up. He's not on Ach-To. His cloak is missing. The room he's in hums with the Force. Two Aang-Tii monks approach and explain that they were consulting their artifacts when a vision of the future came to them. The vision was unclear save for one thing: Luke needed to see the vision too. He sees it, they teach him to teleport with the Force, and he goes on his mission. We learn that Rey is not a Palpatine, but is actually a Solo. She was abducted very young to be used as a host for Darth Talon (who here has been using essence transfer to prolong her life from her time in the Old Republic. She was able to find force sensitives too strong to possess but also could be made into apprentices) so she can lead a resurgent "lost tribe" of Sith to domination. The rescue attempt was botched to hell and back and Rey was spirited away by the lost tribe. In the pursuit, Han tried to disable the ship but he wasnt thinking clearly because it was his daughter on the line. He instead causes the ship to crash on Jakku and explode soon after. This would be the catalyst for Han and Leia separating. Rey obviously lived in an escape pod with one of the Sith. But, the Sith is badly hurt and is picked off by raiders. Rey is found by Unkar and so on. Ben is internally conflicted over killing his father and having let his hated Uncle get the better of him without even being there. The brief Force contact he had with his mother, his mind meld with Rey, he was feeling all sorts of messed up. Ben learns of the lost Sith and their plan when encounter each other in searching for Sith artifacts from the Banite order. He decides to go all in with the lost Sith to protect his newly rediscovered sister. Becoming Darth Caedus to position himself to best keep her safe. Luke arrives to team up with Rey as they lead the newly formed Galactic Alliance (formed in the ashes of the New Republic destruction on Hosnian Prime) forces against the lost Sith and the First Order. Luke and Rey dispatch a few Sith then duel Ben together. When he's sure the Sith and First Order are done for, Ben relents and lets himself be killed. Luke and Rey start work on a new Jedi Order with new ideas, not just a rerun of the old one. It ends with Anakin's force ghost sitting next to Luke as they overlook a new Jedi temple in construction. They're joined by Obi-Wan and Yoda and a final shot of them watching a group of Jedi in training below. Among them, Leia trades blows in sparring with a barabel Jedi.

@JoeTheCrusader

5 ай бұрын

This would have been an awesome movie!

@bobafett4265

5 ай бұрын

This sounds fantastic and way better than "current" Dosney could make on a good day.

The first movie had him kill his father Han Solo, pushing him further to the Dark Side. He had doubts and was made more sympathetic in the next movie, but it ended with him killing Snoke and taking his place in true Sith lord fashion, and further built up the rivalry between him and Rey. The only thing that prevented him from being the villain in the third movie is that Palpatine "somehow returned." The Rise of Skywalker rejecting all the previous plot threads in favor of a last minute reboot not only makes TRoS terrible, but ruins the two movies that came before it as well, making them pointless.

I like Ben getting redeemed. That was one of the only good things about TROS

@tacidian7573

5 ай бұрын

I don't remember much of the sequels, only that my best friend and I sat in the theater absolutely baffled and disappointed. After The Last Jedi, I had no high hopes going into The Rise of Skywalker, but somehow the story that was presented to me was even worse than the "leaked plot" that had circled around on the Internet months before.

I think i like a redeemed ben solo who lives

I am sad for the circumstances that led to a reevaluation and rewrite of the final film. Leia's presence in the original script was likely too difficult to easily revise when she died. But having said that, I love the movie we got - and definitely more than what I have heard about the original. Is redemption a theme in Star Wars? Absolutely. Is it over done or repetitive? Not really. The connection to Rey and her struggles mirroring his was fantastic. That he came to the light and she learned to fight the darkness were both done well. Ben didn't need to become the ultimate villain. That would have been a bad end to the Skywalker legacy.

I think it would have been better if Finn had actually been the last skywalker. That Finn was a failed force sensitive created from lukes DNA from his severed hand, (which happens in the comics), he was dumped in the storm troopers and only when he encounters rey do his powers emerge the surprising light saber battle out of nowhere! Ben Is irredeemable is vader without any light, a vicious powerhouse of darkness, Rey fights her inclanations but as her powers emerge she ultimately falls and surplants Palpatine to his delight, while Finn is made aware of his powers and trained by none other then anakins force ghost who teaches him to weild both the light and dark in balance and becomes the last of the skywalkers who takes down Ben, and the end of the trilogy sets up for Rey Palpatine and Finn Skywalker to carry on into a true new generation and the yuzonvaungn war!

Ep7 was essentially the entire original trilogy compact into one movie but with the son turning to the dark side. Some of us have thought of 'what if' Luke had turned to the dark side. Might be comics miniseries on Luke specifically...

I think a better ending would have been mixed. Not necessarily a redemption arc for Kylo, but kind of a mellowing out for both him and Rey. Them both taking on characteristics of the dark side and the light side. And, controversially, having Luke as the main antagonist. His arc was always somewhat muddled and edging on giving into the dark side. Have him take something of a dark turn towards solely eraticating the dark side, a "jedi purist" if you will. While Rey and Kylo find a true balance between the dark side and the light. Rather it being a tale of good vs evil, have it be a tale of old vs new. Luke (and palpatine/snoke) represent a bygone era, clinging to the past dichotomy. Kylo and Rey represent growth and change. But no. Instead we got the same old slop.

The first movie of the sequels made me strong supporter of counter vader Kylo. Everyone was like "he will be redeemed. It's Disney" and I was praying for this to be: Vader: looks irredeemable but was redeemed Kylo: Looks redeemable but stands his ground and stays at the dark side out of his own free will It makes such a great idea and I was praying for it to happen....and now I learned that I was right and I was FRICKING ROBBED! Can we get JJ cut? second and third movie made by JJ to make fully irredeemable Kylo happen? And maybe to keep Hux rellevant and Knights of Ren more entertaining? Ryan ruined everything I wanted BADLY. Ahhh....bummer

@nicolaridolfi6510

5 ай бұрын

I think that Ryan sealed Kylo as an irredeemable villain with the throne room scene. It's more JJ who changed his mind in the last movie. Anyway about Hux and the Knights of Ren being weaker or absent in TLJ, I can absolutely agree.

@camembertcheese7092

5 ай бұрын

@@nicolaridolfi6510I agree, also in the following scenes on krait he is clearly being set up as the main bad guy. Indirectly responsible for Luke’s death. The scene where Rey shuts the door on him at the end is the door being closed on hope of a good side in him. Then JJ reverse uno’s it in the next movie, most likely under pressure from Disney and KK

It seems to be the Lucasfilm IPDG in 2014 that decided that Kylo should be redeemed.

I honestly doubt that JJ had any sort of plan for story or character development. He never does

I had a feeling that was the original intention of the arch. Should’ve kept it. Likely to pander to his sudden huge fandom. They should’ve just let J.J direct the whole trilogy. It still would’ve had issues but it probably would’ve get more coherent at least

Ben deserved his redemption...Finn deserved to be a Jedi, and Rey could've been an interesting twist character who should've started turning to the dark side after her whole thing with the mirrors in episode 8...we only got like, 1/3 of those things and it wasn't done super well unfortunately but YK it's over now. We lost.

Nice synchronization of the dialogue with Adam Driver’s mouth at the beginning.

What’s the link for original script for episode 9?

Disney has made themselves look like a joke for awhile now.

I want to see more of adam driver.

It would have been an amazing redemption for them to swap the roles and make Rey die as the dark turned villan, with Kylo as the redeemed hero.

Can we get a link for the actual interview? I like to look at the source before I hear other people's thoughts on it.

It's funny because, as far as I'm aware, Kylo Ren was carrying this trilogy on his back. And imo, his redemption was perfect. THOUGH, his death was a major cop out.

Honestly one of the only issues I have with Star Wars as a whole is how these mass murdering psychopaths keep being “redeemed.” Yeah when you are a mass murderer, a mass murderer of children at that, there’s no redemption for you.

@granatmof

5 ай бұрын

I'll have to remember this the next time I become I mass murderer /j I get what you're saying. It's also sort of old Hollywood rules that the bad guy doesn't get a happy ending. For Anakin, Shmi should have been rescued between movies and given a home on Naboo. Padme and Anakin visit Shmi and a secondary attack by Dooku results in Shmi's death, which Anakin blames on Dooku. So when Anakin kills Dooku out of revenge that's the direction of his fall, not slaughtering a village including women and children. For an added bonus, Palpatine is the secret benefactor behind Shmi's rescue, which Anakin finds out about. He explains to Anakin he kept it secret to protect her from his enemies, when in reality is was a secret meant for Anakin to discover to trust him more with a loved one in the future. With Qui-gon gone, Palpatine is looking to replace him as a father figure, because Obi-Wan is a brother figure. Lucas was so hyper focused on trying to set up the Sequels, he missed the archetypes right in front of him.

@funnelvortex7722

5 ай бұрын

The problem is that Star Wars is mythology, mythology regularly features heroes falling to evil and then finding redemption even after going on a rampage of evil acts (for example, Hercules' heroism happened because he was endebted to the Gods since he murdered his family). Of course in any other fictional universe or in our world we'd want Anakin to suffer for what he did, and even in-universe if he survived ROTJ he would likely have been tried and executed by the New Republic for war crimes, but the point of Anakin's redemption was moreso a spiritual one where his soul was redeemed rather than the idea he should be 100% forgiven or let off the hook for what he did. Part of the reason he accepted and welcomed his death in ROTJ is because he knew he didn't deserve to live. Fans are probably gonna rip me a new asshole and I really like this story and character myself *BUT* the whole "mass murderer turns into a good guy and is forgiven by everyone" thing in Star Wars really started with Revan.

@AustinNGrayson

5 ай бұрын

@@funnelvortex7722 it’s a complaint I have with Star Wars specifically because it tries to separate itself from dramatic storytelling while simultaneously trying to embrace it. And it works most of the time but not when it comes to these ludicrous “redemption” arcs.

@ihavegymnastics

5 ай бұрын

Jesus loves all.

@liorobgar

5 ай бұрын

Redemption isn’t about being excused for your past actions, it’s about choosing to turn away from your evil path. Nobody deserves redemption because the idea of redemption having to be deserved undermines the point of it. Redemption’s always an option, even if you still have to be held accountable for the terrible things you’ve done.

If they truly wanted to redeem Ben, it would've been better if Rey ended up embracing her lineage as Palpatine's granddaughter and having to fight Ben, that would've been different at least.

You can see the threads of this in TFA and TLJ as well. I was so in love with this idea and to see it go absolutely nowhere shattered all the good will these movies built up with me

Ben wanting to be Vader but ultimately Rey falling to the dark side and taking Palpatine's place would've been mega epic and would've at least let the Sith survive for another generation.

It definitely looks like Ryan Johnson or The Last Jedi is to be blamed. Not saying there is no fault from that movie or part of the production, just that every time we get more behind-the-scenes info the dumpster fire looks like it is more prominent during Ris of Skywalker

@Butter_Warrior99

5 ай бұрын

There was literally audio allusions to Rey being a Kenobi. Fuck Ryan Johnson.

@ConnorLonergan

5 ай бұрын

@@Butter_Warrior99 Citaion, because I watched the movie and never came across that being the case what with the whole "your parents where drinkers selling you for money."

@Butter_Warrior99

5 ай бұрын

@@ConnorLonergan Film Theory Rey Obi Wan on KZread right now mf. I dare ya.

@Butter_Warrior99

5 ай бұрын

@@ConnorLonergan BOOM MF, before Last Jedi ruined it all : kzread.info/dash/bejne/X6mO2MGgiK-0ldo.htmlsi=xg4LBR2VmpOk57c8

@MyToastyToast

5 ай бұрын

While I agree, I think it’s silly to think JJ had any long term plan for the trilogy. If anything I think the sequels would have been more cohesive if they had the balls to continue the direction TLJ was going in, for better or for worse

Star Wars fans should sign a petition for Dave Filoni to become President of Lucasfilm and ask if George was interested.

song name?

@Guundhi

4 ай бұрын

Home - Resonance

Literally anything would have been better than what JJ and Disney gave us for ep 9. The Emperor lives and Rey as a descendent of him was beyond jumping the shark, more like a megalodon. Kylo shouldn’t have been redeemed though.

@granatmof

5 ай бұрын

I think how they did Palpatine's return was bad. I do think there was a way to return him properly. Maybe show the dark side cult performing the magics instead of saying it. Thematically if OT was about defeating fascism, then the ST should be about defeating those who would want to resurrect fascism. It's something every generation has to continually fight. The failure was really the Starkiller base in ep7. Ep 7 should have been the hunt for Luke. There's literally people fighting over a treasure map. Ep 8 should have been about fighting back success of the First order and trying to prevent Palpatine's heir from being found to be used in the ritual. They think maybe it's a Skywalker until they find out that Rey is a Palpatine, and her blood, or her arm is used in the ritual. The concern for the final movie is whether Rey with go one side or the other, trying got find a way to destroy Star killer base, which involves recruiting the awol First Order Soldier, and defeating everyone. Ben is a nice to have but not really central to the story.

I'm not 100% clear on how 'being very evil --> irredeemably evil' is much of a character arc... Like in TFA he kills his dad and helps genocide billions and he's somehow supposed to get worse over the next 2 movies? How? Plus he was a school-shooter shortly before the events of TFA so...? Like what was actually the plan here? ...clearly there wasn't one

@bobafett4265

5 ай бұрын

Yep operation no plan what Disney were planning since getting Lucasfilm, seriously if they really did care about what they then just bought, they would've taken some notes on how George Lucas handled his projects, let them take time, they can afford it secondly absolute care should be put into whatever you are making, if you don't it will be costly, instead Dosney decided against those ideas and thus it's now a joke of what it once was.

@jediryan9454

5 ай бұрын

No one is born evil. It's an interesting take on how someone becomes a killer. A reverse of a hero's tale.

@M-elephant7777

5 ай бұрын

@@jediryan9454 That's not what episode 7 was, we started with him already being a temper tantrum throwing genocidal maniac, there's no build up (also a few people have been born evil)

@RayOfTruth

5 ай бұрын

Granted The Force Awakens script and canon novelization imply Snoke and Hux avoided having Kylo learn of Starkiller Base's true purpose as a superweapon because he wasn't evil enough to go along with it yet.

I would've liked to hear Adam Driver talk about it

I absolutely despise that Adam's talent was wasted. He's such a good actor, a hidden gem you may say, with his screams being the highlight because he can scream really well. Same with Domhnall who plays Hux, a villain who isn't force sensitive but still puts up a fight would be amazing (I mean we have Grievous, but he's a cyborg not a human).

Almost like Disney is a culture vulture that forgot what it was.

song?

@Guundhi

4 ай бұрын

Home - Resonance

One of my favorite lines in that mess was from Driver. Just outta nowhere and with crazy energy: “YOU NEED A TEACHER!” Love using that

Why no source for the interview?

Adam Driver was the MVP of the Sequels

The truth is that Star Wars has been sh*t since the prequels. The main issue is that they cannot break from the Skywalker saga which at this point has nothing new to say.

Source? Which interview? Link?

This trilogy is a perfect example of why you need to make a plan and stick to it.

Anyone attacking him for killing Han Solo needs to stop. The man is just an actor, he isn’t the one who makes the script.

I didn't like the new trilogy, but one of the major themes present in the first 6 movies is that anyone can find redemption. Like Vader, it would be their choice and it would take significant convincing. And Kylo was never as sanctified in the Dark Side quite like Vader so it seems plenty probable. If I made a couple changes with Kylo is I would either go full insane or reel in his unhinged moments and make him more stoic. He just seemed incompetent most of the time especially since he lost to a girl that just got force powers and has never held a lightsaber before their battle in episode 7. Also, Han shouldn't have been the ghost that visits him in episode 9. It would make more sense if he got visited by Anakin since not only is he an actual force ghost, but he would be like "hey, i've been vader and it sucked. Go back to the lightside, trust me, it's worth it."

Anything Disney touches, it destroys. I'm 52 years old and this is not the Disney I grew up with. So very sad.

The most interesting thing with Kylo Ren was in the TLJ when he talks to Rei about tearing it all down. The cycle of Jedi vs Sith, empire vs. rebels, just tear it all down and start over. IF it had actually gone in that direction it would have been SO much more interesting AND would even have made the the fact that TFA was just a reskinned A New Hope seem like a brilliant move by the writers. In effect saying, yeah we set up the First Order as an Empire Clone, Snoke as an Emperor Clone, Ren as a Vader Clone, Star Killer Base as a deathstar clone....to...drive home the idea that this universe is stagnent (we are in a wheel of time cycle where everything repeats its just a bit different) but guess what, Ren and Rei have just broken the cycle and we are now going in a wild new direction! Taking a hard look at the very construct of Good vs. Evil.

He’s still one of the most epic characters. Killing Han Solo will never make my eyes tear.

@noodleaddict5215

5 ай бұрын

I definitely agree how He is one of the most badass and complex characters in the sequel trilogy but overall compared to other SW characters outside the sequel trilogy he's nothing in comparison

Do you really think that this would have made the movie any better? I'm still ashamed I paid good money to see it in theaters. I knew it was going to be a trainwreck when I stepped in, but I still had to see it for myself. This would have changed nothing. Garbage writing is garbage writing.

It was really interesting to see a character that wanted so badly to be Darth Vader yet he couldn't be him. I would have loved to see him finally becoming what he wanted or discover he can't be Darth Vader because he has a pure heart.

How about both of them becoming sith master and apprentice, making them the first lover sith lord duo, and whoever comes next will stop them. Or if they didn't kill Luke, he's going to have a new team to do it. It's just so infuriating that despite hundreds of great ideas, they've chosen the shit ideas.

The saddest thing he said in that interview, is that he was actually a Star wars fan before the movies. That it's what made him take the role, although he did hesitate a while because "he didn't want it to be bad". He didn't want to mess it up, out of respect for the universe. Think about it. Little did he know...

@LecherousLizard

4 ай бұрын

Little did he know, his character would end up being the best part of the trilogy. Which wasn't an accomplishment, because from the very first minute of the movie the bar for "the best" was anything above "a tripping hazard in Hell". And then they started dancing limbo with the Devil.

@a.bettik8698

4 ай бұрын

@@LecherousLizard agreed. His were the few almost good moments ; free will hiddenly growing out of adolescent hesitations, to the point that even a Sith master cannot decipher it ; a lightsaber shaped as a fluctuating compass in order to symbolize that. There were some good ideas.

I wouldve loved to see Kylo face more and more corruption as the story went on. Imagine Ep8 ending with him asking Rey to join him, her refusing and him stabbing her from behind uttering "Then you must die" followed by a fade to credits. With her being propped up as the true protagonist of the trilogy it wouldve shook everyones expectations and cemented Kylo not as the next Vader but as the next Sideous. Then it becomes Finn's story set years later as Kylo has seized power over the Galaxy, Kylo could even be keeping Rey alive in a tank in a comatose state so he can attempt to slowly drive her to the dark side subconsciously as he talks to her as his coma wife, meanwhile being kept between life and death allows her to communicate with Finn through the force as well as many of the dead jedi so when she is revived she could truly bring back the Jedi order.

Having Ben Solo falling to the dark side but, also achieve his goals by the third film and ending the whole trilogy on a dark note would of been pretty good. They could spend the next trilogy redeeming the character or letting good triumph.

I really wish we could do over and have people actually carefully crafted. Every single character was shafted from any potential they had.

Yeah it would’ve been great to see Kylo Ren truly embrace the dark side fully with no remorse. Because Vader became evil cuz life took him there, but deep down he was always good. While Kylo Ren had all the reasons to be good, but for some reason lusted for Evil, never having a spec of good in him.

It's been widely publicised that the 3 directors didn't go into the trilogy with a fully laid out plan. The result was quite the mess, tbh. It surprises me that one of the best loved IPs of all time could be handled so shoddily

So that's at least 3 of the cast that were disappointed with there characters. You think by the time the Rey trilogy finishes we'll have the whole set?

It’s sad when every single major actor in the entire saga has, in some interview, said that they are disappointed or confused with the arc their character took.

Stabbing Han Solo through the heart is irredeemable for any character. Lol and Rey falls in love with Kylo after watching him murder her new father figure...

I like the dyad of the force and Ben Solo's redemption. It feels like they wasted potential. They killed off the ACTUAL last Skywalker...

"Outlines are a waste of time. If you give your characters free will, they will grow in ways you never anticipated, and they will take the story places you could not have predicted, raising themes you might or might not have intended to explore."

I always thought this was the original intent. It's nice to have it confirmed.