If anyone feels like noting timestamps as they watch video, please share and I will add both these and your name in the description as a thank you!

@Basaljet

Жыл бұрын

Hey Mel this is what I was trying to write on Part 2 of previous: Greetings brethren: Let me get this clear: In summary, the post Chal cedonian (451) Byzantines developed the notion that Ish ma el was buried at "Me cca" as a narrative to sustain a trading relationship with the A rabs. This may have had a longer tradition. Whatever, it gave some kind of credible identity that would commend A rabs to Christians elsewhere. A "Church" was built in the tradition and legacy of Queen Helena at that site to enshrine the story. It may or may not have been exclusively used for "Christian" worship. Dr Kerr suggests that there were no surviving pagans in A rabia at that time. But why? Surely the indigenous people were not by this time universally "Christian". More likely a mixture of Jewish/Christian/Gnostics/pagans. All the more reason why this "Church" should have had such an array of images. Where does the ground plan used at 20.mins ff actually come from? Is it conjecture? I may have missed something. So, The Umay yads held an apocalyptic eschatological belief that there would be a "parousia" (2nd coming) of some description in Jer u salom in the 7th century. When that did not occur it was necessary to refocus the new religion away from Jerusalem. Me cca loaned itself to that purpose. Post Christian Rab binical writings already discuss the inheritance of Ishmael as opposed to Is aac as the "First Born". That elevates the interest in Ish ma el for a new regime. Is this a credible summary or is there more? Interesting to hear mention of the "Dam ascus Scroll". As I remember it that scroll is written for "Essenes" living away from Qumran and managing elsewhere in the world. It appears there were two elements of "Essene" (word used advisedly) life. Those who lived in ritual purity as a "Community" at Qumran and those who lived an Essene lifestyle elsewhere in the world. Interesting that it should actually be called "Dam ascus Scroll". Never really occurred to me but a long time since I have looked at these things. I do remember reading suggestion that after the destruction surviving Essenes may have settled in the Ara bian peninsula. Something to do I think with "Psalm 151" which is found at Qumran where David talks to the animals like St Francis. Does it feature in the Ko ran? I am just going by memory and reflecting on your lecture while away from home.

@Basaljet

Жыл бұрын

I fear that you may be losing a great deal of valid discussion in the comments resulting from sense or ship robots

@SzTz100

Жыл бұрын

Robert Kerr is a great guest, thank you Mel. I've been addicted to the origins of Islam ever since I found your channel.

@roshlew6994

Жыл бұрын

Was this Umar the same as Mhmad of Tayaye aka Khalid al-walid?

@roshlew6994

Жыл бұрын

I've seen many twitter posts saying there are recent discoveries of rock inscriptions attestating to caliph Uthman.. was this discussed?

This series is just fabulous, thank you Mel for bring Prof. Dr Kerr to your channel👍

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

My pleasure! I am really lucky that Prof. Kerr is so generous with his time. I'm learning a ton from him.

@simonhengle8316

Жыл бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins You can almost see the information that he has in head twirling around when he answers you, an amazing wealth of knowledge,. I am so pleased for you that you have built up a relationship with Prof. Dr Kerr. I am just happy to listen and make notes from this fabulous series

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

@@simonhengle8316 It is amazing to me, as he was my number 1 favourite Islamologist. I see some viewers are grumbling that he is pausing to gather his thoughts, but he is processing things in multiple languages. From what I gather he knows: English, German, French, Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin. Probably more languages too. I can't get my head around that level of knowledge. He is such a humorous guy. Some of the funniest things he said are on the cutting floor that I had to edit out for different reasons. It was the highlight for me of the year. I think it will encourage me to invite more academics. I was afraid to up to now as I thought my lack of linguistic knowledge would be a barrier.

@simonhengle8316

Жыл бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins I can't understand why people would grumble, to be able to hold that amount of information in one's brain is frankly both amazing and well beyond my level, it's such a pleasure to watch him and the interaction between you both

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

@@simonhengle8316 I think a lot of people just want entertainment, even if it is about Islam. That's why sensational videos about Aisha done by AP or the Dizzle do so well.

What a wealth of knowledge Prof. Dr Kerr has, thank you Mel and Prof. Dr Kerr for this fabulous series

Gosh. I missed this. Mel. These talks are outstanding. What a coup to have Dr. Kerr on your channel!! You have great questions for him!! Thanks Mel😊❤️✝️

Nice, look forward to the next show, till then have a bless safe week.

It was The Three Investigators that had Alfred Hitchcock as a character. Encyclopedia Brown was a different book series that the story came from. Of course there is only one Gettysburg, the sword was allegedly engraved as from the 1st battle of Bull Run, the opening battle of the war.

Oh wow, you've got professor Kerr. That's fantastic! I am going to binge watch these videos.

Was this Umar the same as Muhmad of Tayaye aka Khalid al-walid?

The more I watch and listen to the theology, historicity, etc of Islam, the more I understand ‘Without lies, Islam dies!’

@bachamadu2076

Жыл бұрын

Same here. Islam is the inevitable pseudo-religion. The polítical n military vacume bcos of the Roman empire fell in 510, the many serious emergence of heresies, a real enemies of Christianity, and thr giagantic ego of muhamd made this pseudo-religion possible. If you read Quran, the idea of Tawheed is about unification of many great and lesser known religions into one by substracting, adding, and modifying already belived doctrines. So the aim was synthesis but end up being a pseudo-religion of syncrentism. But the internet is here as a foe to Islam.

@issamedin306

Жыл бұрын

The only people who take this pseudo-scholar seriously are ignorant Christian apologists. He is widely rejected by the academic community.

@1sheix

7 ай бұрын

That is the case for any religion

Not sure if Dr. Kerr brought it up, but I wonder what he'd make of Gabriel of Qartmin's 648 AD mention of Umar bar Khattab

I would like a video with Dr. Kerr and Dr. Jay Smith!

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

It is coming. Very soon! 👍

I get always a bit uneasy, when there are put the exact same criterias on Islamic, Jewish and Christian artifacts. For Christian and even more so Jewish artifacts had to survive a much LONGER period! Shouldn't we expect much better artifacts form Islam, which had to survive a much SHORTER period?

@alfiras8604

Жыл бұрын

Inscriptions, manuscripts etc. are only beginning to be published. See my comment elsewhere where I mention the other sources for the historicity of Umar. There are a lot of manuscripts that are getting published that are datable to the 1st/7th century; hundreds of manuscripts in the Middle East are still waiting to be digitalised. The type of polemics you see here on KZread are outdated.

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

​@@alfiras8604 They refer to the Tayyeye and not Qureshi as starting the Arab state. Also none of them mention the religion of the Arabs

@robertdegroot8302

7 күн бұрын

Also, Islam supposedly burst onto the scene with a mighty sequence of conquests. We should be finding loads of writings of both conquerors and the conquered about who these people were, what motivated them and who their leaders were. Christianity started as a small bush fire.

@robertdegroot8302

7 күн бұрын

@@alfiras8604Any references or updates on these manuscripts?

Just some corrections. Councils are not meant to create new teachings but to affirm or clarify already existing teachings. So to say Persian Christians are not aware of Trinitarian View is somewhat disingenious. Some of early heresies unfortunately came from the east. And many of whom was exiled to the east. Even in the acts of apostles their are already segment of heretical groups that got rejected by the council of Jerusalem. There is a claim popular in protestant west that the Church was created by Constantine which is pretty dumb. Because the Bishop of Rome did not even attend these councils but only his emesary. And those Bishop who attend are already pre-existing. So how can Constantine create a Church who already exist and its leader did not even attend his councils. Also if these councils created new teaching, it would have been rejected by people specially the Pope who did not attend it.

@OksintasObones

9 ай бұрын

Constantine attended the council of nicea

@Ekim1740

9 ай бұрын

@@OksintasObones I said he Bishop of Rome did not attend that council. Many of the doctrines approved on that council was proposed by the Pope before even the council was started. Because many of those doctrines already preexist. It was just the wording that what ratified. Constantine has no say on what the Church teaches. Because he is not a Christian and not a Bishop. His wife i think was a Christian. Thats all.

@OksintasObones

9 ай бұрын

@@Ekim1740 oh really... wasn't him who called for this council to come with a decree against Arius and Arianism? He himself participated in this decree

@Ekim1740

9 ай бұрын

@@OksintasObones Every council has been called because of a heresy. So what? Does it mean he created a doctrine? The doctrine of Trinity exist in the beginning of Christianity. We can say the name of the doctrine was later coined but Christians worship the Triune God before Constantine exist.

@economician

7 ай бұрын

The trinity dig not exist before Nicea. What existed were three major christologies: 1) the dynamical monarchinists, the modalists and logos incarnalists. Nicea came to be a Battle between different types of logos incarnalists who would later be called arians and trinitarians. Have you seen Sam Tideman`s youtube lecture: ”the development of the Trinity and why it is a problem for protestants”?

Hmm, why had they removed that image on the Islamic Awareness page? And what had they photshoped?

I do think Umar existed and is the basis for Muhammad

Oooh what a treat

So wait, something was removed from the “WayBack Machine”? Who would have thunk it. Hmmm. Moral of the story, if you find something true but contentious, copy or download it immediately. When they start to scrub both the present and the past we are going to be in trouble if we are not proactive.

I think Jericho archeology does line up with the Bible. Scholars just have the chronology incorrect.

The analogies of weaknesses in the tales of early Islam with similar weaknesses in early Christianity, Judaism and others are particularly useful. They are generally lacking in the avowedly Christian on-line critiques of Islam, which are often good at dismembering the early Islamic narrative but overlook similar limitations in their own roots.

@amazingbibleantiquities7221

Жыл бұрын

Can you give a couple of examples of what you mean? Thanks in advance.

@markaxworthy2508

Жыл бұрын

@@amazingbibleantiquities7221 Such as the difficulty of pinpointing the exact year of Jesus's birth, or that there is no external evidence for such Old Testament figures as Abraham being a historical figure. There are others in the text if you view it again.

Particia Crone and Michel Cook in Hagarism on Umar: "His historicity is not in doubt". He is mentioned in many sources as Sebeos and in this very inscription. The work of the inarah group is nothing but science fiction. In arabic we call it هراء

@roshlew6994

Жыл бұрын

Was this Umar the same as Muhmad of Tayaye aka Khalid al-walid?

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

Umar was Muhammad

@ahmedalbakry4947

Жыл бұрын

@@roshlew6994 no. Muhammad is khosrow the second, and Umar is Heraclius, and Abu Bakr is Barak Obama.

@ahmedalbakry4947

Жыл бұрын

@@roula-slf NOT khara BUT Hura = nonsense

@johnathanmaweu5550

4 ай бұрын

Typical muslim you are,nkt!​@@ahmedalbakry4947

A nonsense!

Smoking and gaps in talking are rude

A couple of points: 1. Umar's historicity is not in doubt. In addition to the inscription of Zuhayr, he is also mentioned in inscriptions written by his great-grandson dated to 98-100 AH; early non-Muslim sources such as two Syriac chronicles written in the early 8th century; a papyrus which will soon be published by Fred Donner (though this is undated) etc. 2. Letter shapes in inscriptions (and even early Quran manuscripts) are never consistent. Especially in the earliest writings, in which the authors do not put in much effort to make the script appear uniform. The shape of the wāw used in the second part of the inscription has a wider circular part and the tail stops partially unlike the first part which has a horizontal continuation afterwards. Both of these are 'correct' and early ways of writing the letter. See for example page 228 in the following paper which includes a comparison of the letter shapes in early inscriptions: www.academia.edu/3576977/The_Inscription_of_Zuhayr_the_oldest_Islamic_Inscription_AH_24_AD_644_ The letter wāw in the Mu'awiyah dam inscription has around 5 slightly different shapes; so does the Aswan inscription dated to 31 AH. Are we going to conclude they each had 5 different authors as well?

@roshlew6994

Жыл бұрын

Was this Umar the same as Muhmad of Tayaye aka Khalid al-walid?

@alfiras8604

Жыл бұрын

@Kriss Warner Yes. And considering that it's the very existence of the caliphs that is being questioned here, the 'standard narrative' is absolutely accurate in this regard.

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

​@@alfiras8604 The problem is it's not. The Arab Empire began on the Iraqi/Syrian border. Hence the Arabic used was northern Arabic.

@TingTong2568

Жыл бұрын

@@alfiras8604 I'm don't totally reject the standard Islamic narrative but archeological proof is still lacking when it comes to the 4 early caliphs. Where are their coins or stone inscriptions of their reigns and decrees during their reign?

@alfiras8604

Жыл бұрын

@@RedWolf75 Not sure what exactly you are trying to say here. The Arabic script is descended from the Nabataean Aramaic script, but it became widespread further south as well. By the 6-7th century, there are inscriptions in clear Arabic script in the Hejaz and elsewhere.

Oh! it's very irritating seeing that prof talk