Jason, I thoroughly appreciate your navigation of the relationship between general public and OEMs relative to data security. Few are confident enough in their journalist career to be able to articulate why the decision Hyundai, Honda and GM made was obscene. I hope that you continue to have that confidence despite the executives at said companies attempting to "put you in your place". This IS your place. Journalism is about providing the general public with the right information in order to make good decisions DESPITE OEMs efforts. Automotive Journalism is about the truth and casting light on the responsibility that OEMs have, despite the efforts of their PR and marketing teams attempting to relieve them of that responsibility.

@aygwm

Ай бұрын

THIS Is what needs to be said!

@willratcliff6111

Ай бұрын

Absolutely!

@user-cq6fk5go3s

Ай бұрын

This thought came to me as I’ve noticed several vehicles today want to connect to WiFi once you get home.

@Vattiis_Happonnen

Ай бұрын

Cool, how many expletives are needed to get back steering feel, visibility and, oh, how about Physical-Controls™ for turn signals, door handles, volume knobs......? Lmk, thx

@assininecomment1630

Ай бұрын

Exactly! Also, it's not as if Jason has abused his power (comparatively) to vilify, say, a small business with limited experience, now at risk of closing down. In a sense, he's 'punched up'. Car manufacturers are immensely more powerful than any journalist. Each maker has vast resources and the ability to make considered, far-sighted and responsible decisions. However, they're not too powerful to be publicly criticised. In this instance, they've opted to implement systems _that harms people's rights._ So yeah - these bastards totally deserve to be called out. That Jason expressed it with some blunt language, makes it no less his professional responsibility to criticise those made these decisions.

Your collective knowledge on car history never ceases to amaze me. Love listening to you both talking about all things cars.

@mattr8904

Ай бұрын

Can Shmee150 PLEASE be a Carmudgeon guest?!

Fantastic episode as usual. Here are some other ''production'' V12s that weren't mentioned. 1. The Marc Birkigt designed Hispano-Suiza V12 that was fitted to the J12 (T68) which came in two sizes: 9.4 and 11.3 litres. 2. The ''supercharged'' and air cooled V12 Franklin which was a total commercial failure and was produced in few numbers but none the less, was a production car. 3. The fabulous Walter O. Bentley designed V12 that went into the Lagonda V12, which was quite successful despite the price. This V12 was also unusually short stroked for a pre-war engine, and especially a British one. 4. The Maybach DoppelSechs Zeppelin engine, fitted to DS7 and DS8 models with 7 and 8 litre capacities. 5. The V12 developed by Fritz Fiedler for the Horch 670 and 600. A 6 litre unit. 6. The Tatra T80 with a Czech 6.0 litre V12 of which only 25 were ever made. 7. The other V12 that Lincoln developed for their second production model, the K-Series. This came initially as a 7.3 litre unit for the 1932-33 KB, then a 6.3 version only for the 1933 KA, and the most common 6.8 litre version that ran from 1934 to 1939. 8. The Cadillac V12 produced from 1930 to 1937, basically overshadowed by the V16 with whom it shared its basic design including the akward 45º angle. 9. The 6.8 litre V12 from the first generation FIAT 520. Sadly, none of them seem to have survived. 10. The 6.0 V12 from the first generation Hongqi L5, the only Chinese V12 in history. 11. There are attempts at reviving Delage with an alien looking car called the D12 (as the original aerodynamic prototype) which will supposedly feature an in-house 7.6 litre V12 with an alleged output of 990 bhp without forced induction. And speaking of Delage, it was apparently the original 2LCV V12 GP car from the 1920s the one that made Enzo Ferrari fall in love with V12s. At the time the 2LCV was unveiled in 1922, he was a driver for Alfa-Romeo.

@akshaysankarshana2405

12 күн бұрын

Thank you so much, love to learn all this stuff.

I will always be a sucker for those low displacement V8s in classic Italian cars no matter how often they break down

@jt-hb8lh

Ай бұрын

That urraco v8 though.

@C.Fecteau-AU-MJ13

Ай бұрын

The Alfa Montreal has to be one of the most seductive cars ever made.

@nickbrown7990

Ай бұрын

@@jt-hb8lh if I were to ever get my wish it would be to get my hands on a Jano V8 from the Lancia F1 car and put it into something.

@BCJDM

Ай бұрын

Me too, the Lancia Thema 8.32 with the Ferrari derived V8 sounds amazing

Good for you Jason! Called out Car manufacturers for snitching on customers and getting them to back track! Good on you.

Curious anecdote about the Toyota Century's V12! A famous (or infamous, depending on who you ask) tuning shop in Japan, Top Secret, put a Century V12 in an A80 Toyota Supra, twin turbocharged it to 930 (with nitrous) horsepower, and took it to Nardo and reached 358 km/h (222mph) with it.

@flacjacket

Ай бұрын

Smokey Nagata also got banned from the UK when he got caught doing 197 mph on a top speed run attempt on the A1.

@Legotruck82

Ай бұрын

@@flacjacketdifferent car. Was an RB26DET powered A80 Supra.

@Tom-lf8hx

Ай бұрын

We also have some crazy west aussies at WTF auto (yes its that 😏) in kelmscott, have out a V12 in a MK4 supra ❤

Erm, did you forget the engine in the Ferrari F50, boys?

Jason, I HIGHLY recommend getting ferrari 599 mufflers for your 850csi. They are the known mod for 850i 850ci and 850csi e31s for improving their sound. Since you're in the bay, you should know there is a big e31 community here! So hopefully, we cross paths and can compare my 4.6 stroked 840 6s to your 850csi

Wish you could've played a snippet of one of Harry's videos driving the XJ12C. It's an operatic testament to the power of large sums of money spent to get something exactly right. Absolute ear candy that I don't think any I6 in the world can match.

You guys should do an episode on Cosworth, and probably one on Gordon Murray as well.

@slow_328i

Ай бұрын

That would be awsome

About car data collection. I think it doesn't matter if you hit "accept" or not. Because when you bring your car in for a service, mechanic can just turn the data collection back on anyway, without your consent. You would have no evidence to blame them for doing this. But car company will have evidence that you allowed them to collect your data. I always turn all data collection off. But I notice that everytime I took my car for a service with dealer, my car will return with data collection on. It happened so often to the point that it become my standard practice to check privacy setting everytime I got my car back from service.

@MaverickPhantom

Ай бұрын

Backstabbing practices

@assininecomment1630

Ай бұрын

Did you raise this with the dealer service department? If so, did you get a 'this is standard procedure' response?

@MaverickPhantom

Ай бұрын

@@assininecomment1630 that would be a nightmare to track

@punnboat9817

Ай бұрын

@@assininecomment1630 I didn't. Because I don't have solid proof that I already turned it off right before I gave a key to a dealer. If I bring this up, they will start putting blame on me. I'll try to record a video clip of the privacy setting right before I give a car key to the mechanic. But I kept forgetting to do it. But again, they can just switch it on, send all data collected over a year to company, then switch it off right before I pick my car up. Point is, if anyone can change your privacy setting anytime they want, then it's pointless. Sensitive settings (privacy setting included) should be behind password or something that can only be accessible by you.

I think one of the takeaways from this episode is that the inline 6 is the holy engine layout. But that’s crystal clear

@darrylcook9285

Ай бұрын

I wouldn't discount flat 6's in that contest. Porsche has done amazing things with that layout.

@jimiverson3085

Ай бұрын

Jaguar used to know that. Then they forgot.

@Petrospect

Ай бұрын

@@jimiverson3085 I really do wish they made a lighter F-Type with a thumping great inline six.

@jimiverson3085

Ай бұрын

@@Petrospect It wouldn't even have to be that big an engine - something around 4 liters would be good for 420-450HP in a normally aspirated car. Get the overall weight down to 3000 pounds or less and you'd have a really fast, good handling car. Except that car would require money to develop, which is something Jaguar doesn't seem to have.

@mitchell-wallisforce7859

Ай бұрын

@@Petrospect They HAD a supercharged V6 F-type BEFORE the V8. When Henry Catchpole took a V8 one to Romania, he mentioned that having less weight over the front axle made the V6 F-type livelier on turn-in. And yeah. I know. "V6 bad". Go look up a Ford Mondeo STW or Capri RS3100 and say that again with a straight face. Any basic layout sharing a cylinder count and aspiration can be made to sound like any other engine layout with the same cylinder count with the right setup. There are flat-sixes that sound like V6s and V6s that sound better than V12s. V6s are just so short that they make sense for packaging in a way that inline engines don't, and are thus so common that familiarity bred contempt despite some of the best-sounding cars in history having V6s.

Jason, I can tell you how programs with OBD telematics work. For the record, I've never sold one. You have the metrics as illustrated by the Hyundai and that is correct. Basically, the rate is the rate - unless you meet the preferred criteria that's being measured. Then you get a discount. I always ask clients things like: - Do you drive at rush hour? - Do you drive late at night? - Do you speed? Usually, by then, people have ruled themselves out of it. I yelled at carriers as they were bringing them to market telling them their data was flawed. I did the same when it came to credit scoring even though I understood the method to their madness. The problem with that is that I know people with stellar credit who can't drive their way out of a wet paper bag and I know other people who had things happen, like a major illness, that torpedoed their credit but have never had a loss. Similar things hold true here. Personally, I think the criteria are super-flawed because I have played with one in my car. I almost never have a perfect trip. The metrics are set so low. Anyone with even a halfway decent SUV will probably get acceleration demerits. I do that in a FWD car with a whopping 210 hp (it's what I have right now as I'm working through some things). Why? Mostly because I choose to shift myself and use proper gears for the situation. Almost always get a brisk acceleration penalty. I could drive like I have an egg under the pedals and still get nailed. Meanwhile, the person behind me is messing around on their phone and steering with their knees. Rolling stops? No problem! Me stopping behind the line? Hard braking, bro, big minus! Ditto taking turns. Do I drive hard sometimes? Yes. But, even when I'm not I have problems. The difference is that I can actually handle a car at the limit; the people who never do that WILL freak out when lateral gs exceed 0.25 g. So, who is safer if things get hairy? PS - I'm surprised you didn't bring up the vibration of your Scirocco 16V when discussing the matter. I had one back in the day and, boy, did it vibrate. But, I loved that about it. That made it feel alive.

The biggest advantage of more cylinders is more valves allowing more flow. Looking at two 3 liter engines - Mercedes M198 and Ferrari 250S both from the 1950s with 2 valves per cylinder overhead cams. The Mercedes has 49mm intake valves assuming a 5mm of lift (~half open) each valve provides 770mm^2 of area (circumference time lift) with 6 valves total area is 4618mm^2 The Ferrari has 38mm intake valves again assuming 5mm of lift (again ~ half open) each valve provides 597mm^2 of area but now there are 12 of them to total area is 7163mm^2 55% more.

Also, knowing this was an engine episode, I HAD to hook up to my bigass speaker and listen to all of those wonderful audio clips at the miserable bitrate of KZread compression. Better than my phone/laptop speakers at least.

I clicked on the S70 Thumbnail before realizing it was a Carmudgeon Show. Pleasant surprise! Happy to hear that Jason joined the ranks of CSi owners. Best car ever (if you're not more than two people). Once a big heavy car it now looks rather lean and compact compared to modern, obese vehicles. The design looks surprisingly fresh, with only few things (like the lights) hinting at its age. Performance is still more than adequate with insane high-speed stability thanks to four-wheel steering. I don't like screaming engines so the S70 is perfect in that regard. Subdued but with a definite don't-f*ck-with-me undertone. Deep growling and roaring is available on demand and there's torque, torque and some more torque. Everywhere. Best passenger quote when I was in top gear, out-accelerating other cars while exiting an Autobahn construction site at 80-100 km/h: "Oh, come on! At least pretend that you have to shift down!" Looking forward to the 850 CSi Revelations episode. With things going the way they do I think we can be sure now that the S70 will remain the only V12 M-engine ever.

@alex98b627

Ай бұрын

Is the S70 the same engine as the BMW M V12 in the McLaren F1?

@glockenkurvenrandgruppe

Ай бұрын

@@alex98b627 No, not the same. The /1, /2 and /3 have longer stroke and also 4-valve heads and a dry sump, which the "base" S70 did not have. All that remains would be the engine block. Probably. Even the book "Driving Ambition" is not clear about that. It would be cool, though.

The clip from effspot was hilarious. Exactly the reaction I would have

@stefangrubesic2708

Ай бұрын

The amount of times I've watched that video... Brings me back to early high school when I found it

I love the fact that Derek has to physically hold back the motorcycle history demon before he records an entire episode’s worth of esoteric motorcycle knowledge.

Honda never made a road going V8 but they did have the Honda Crossroad which was a rebadged Land Rover Discovery Series 1 and it had the same Rover V8.

FYI, accelerating (or decelerating) at 9.5km/h/s is equivalent to 2.638m/s/s which is equivalent to 0.27g. Which isn't much.

@MaverickPhantom

Ай бұрын

That's the problem. In most traffic conditions, this is just normal driving.

@nirfz

Ай бұрын

That's something you can easily exceed with a bycicle!

@bavariancarenthusiast2722

Ай бұрын

I checked that with may self driving system - its accelerating and decelerating above this limits - automatically not me. You need to feather the gas and not break just cruise to a stop, also what is missing the lateral acceleration must be very low to (driving through curves)

@MaverickPhantom

Ай бұрын

@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 try cruising to a stop in a city

@bavariancarenthusiast2722

Ай бұрын

@@MaverickPhantom yep thats the point, if you no traffic its doable -you need to think well ahead - but with normal traffic? Nope

Jason, I was the first to do the 599 muffler mod on the BMW 850 and wrote the explanation about it on Bimmerforums. If it's something that may interest you (or anyone with an 850 reading this comment), I'd be happy to discuss. Welcome to the E31 family - it seems quite a few of us are a technically inclined bunch of enthusiasts helping each other to keep these cars running well.

The 12 cylinder Aston Martin Vanquish from the early-mid 200’s sounds MUCH better than the Mondeo v6 engine that it’s based on.

@Stefan-Forster

Ай бұрын

Wanted to bring that up as well :-) just have a look at chris harris‘ vulcan video from top gear (series 23 i think…)

@cgmoog

Ай бұрын

The Mondeo V6 was designed by Porsche. They ran short of money and sold the basic design to Ford.

Its far easier to spin a small displacement V8 to 12,000 rpm than it is a 4 cylinder of the same displacement, look at the original 60's Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale. 227hp from 2.0L in 1967! That's 113.5hp per litre! 😮🤯 There's huge benefits to more cylinders.

@bentucker2301

Ай бұрын

Is that down to piston size and weight. Anything else, I'm intrigued?

@woodendoorgarage

Ай бұрын

@@bentucker2301 Short stroke so cylinder walls survive and to have lighter valve-train with lower forces that does not float valves at high RPM and fly apart. In a way the engine is built like two motorbike race engines. Fun fact, contemporary Chevy small block 350 at 5500 RPM and Cadillac V8 at 4500 RPM has same piston speed as 33 Stradale engine at 9500 RPM. You really cannot cheat metalurgy and oil film strength on cylinder walls and piston rings so Alfa Romeo worked around it.

@fraserwright9482

Ай бұрын

It's also why the LFA has 7 oil pumps.

Thank you thank you thank you for speaking out against these companies Jason!! I (and everyone I know) truly appreciate it

They didnt mention the Aston Martin One-77 and Vulcan 7.3L V12’s. Also developed with/by Cosworth

@tcmustang3424

Ай бұрын

That's because both of them are based on the 6.0 l (5.9) V12.

@fraserwright9482

Ай бұрын

Which is based on the 60° V6 Mazda/Ford V6

@carsaregood911

Ай бұрын

Which is based on an abandoned Porsche design?

1:14:10 Derek is correct, although there were plans to develop a V8 for the KB1 generation of the Acura RL, but it got scrapped due to the recession in 2008. They even gave the cars a carbon fiber driveshaft to handle the extra torque of the planned V8, but it never came to fruition. Also an interesting sidenote: Mazda developed a 4.6 liter V12 for the flagship sedan of their stillborn Amati brand in the 90s, they already had the tooling and manufacturing for it in place when the Japanese bubble economy burst and they were forced to can the entire thing. According to the lead engineer, "I drove it with the windows down and you’d have sworn there was a Ferrari two cars behind you. With the windows up you couldn’t hear a damn thing.”

Oh, touche, Derek: you understand the distinction between "begging" a question and "raising" a question! YAHOO! What a rarity, these days. (I must admit, I'm not at all surprised that you're "one of us.")

@gianni_schicchi

Ай бұрын

It’s touché. Not one of us.

👏👏👏 a man of the people. Thank you Jason for not backing down, and shining a spotlight on this issue

V12s sound like 6s, but they have a higher frequency harmonic that 6s don't have. However, it's usually too quiet in the road car, it needs to be specifically emphasized. To emphasize it you start with 6 to 1 headers with the length of the primaries tuned for high RPM scavenging then tune the secondary length to make sure all the pulses are evenly spaced at high RPM at the tail pipe. The secondary length is the distance between the collector and the x-pipe crossover. F1 engines don't really need to worry about this because the lower harmonic is already such a high frequency. My hypothesis for why 'the scream' sound so good is because its in a similar range to a female voice (around 240Hz which corresponds to 14000RPM), F1 cars hit this frequency with the primary but roadcars need that secondary harmonic to hit it. Modern V12s have lost this because stricter emissions requirements forces the cats to be closer to the head which obvious removes ability to tune primary lengths and restrictive cats tend to kill the high frequency harmonic. Hence the loss of the wail going from the Murcielago to the Aventador. The Murcielago was a masterclass for sound, it had a full-bodied low RPM sound and a wail gradually assimilated at high RPM. Aftermarket Aventador headers can reproduce the high RPM nature of the V12 but still isn't as good as a Murcielago - it's purely screamy without a good full-bodied low note.

The Jag V12 started as a Lemans 4 valve V12 prototype engine that got a simplified and easy to produce flat head with combustion chamber in the piston for use in road cars. The 1980's May head has a flat piston and combustion pocket in the head. The Jag V12 It's a large bore, short stroke engine that is very smooth but very innefficient. Amazing sound and drivenign experience when un-corked and back'd with a manual transmission.

@cgmoog

Ай бұрын

Michael May a Swiss Formula One driver developed the HE head for Jaguar.

The Aston V12 has so much texture, it’s glorious. People put headers on them and get the ripping sound more like a modern Ferrari V12 but I think that’s a mistake lol

You missed the Hispano-Suiza J12 (1931-1938), with the Mark Birkigt V12 that is surely the greatest of the Prehistoric Luxury V12s.

Ya can't beat a long legged V12. I just wish I was rich, and could have afforded either the GMA T50 or T33, for example. Formula 1 cars in the 70s 80s and 90s sounded amazing.... now? Dear lord, it's bad.

@Mr_CJ_rambo

Ай бұрын

I'm with you, but I have grown to like the sound of the hybrid V6 in F1

@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo

Ай бұрын

​​@@Mr_CJ_rambo that's gay....... Do you also like CVT whine too?

@Mr_CJ_rambo

Ай бұрын

@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo absolutely not, but I am a big fan of torque converter autos that everyone rags on

@LorraineHinchliffe-vg5cb

Ай бұрын

@@Mr_CJ_rambo I will never forget my dad took me to Brands Hatch in 1976, for my 1st F1 experience. James Hunt won that day and the cars sounded incredible. My favourite V6 engine noise was my dad's GTV6. That Alfa Romeo sounded amazing

love this episode! V12s for the win. 2 points for you both; 1) Chevrolet made a 702ci pushrod V12 for their trucks in the early/mid 60s I believe. Isn't common but was available. 2) Mercedes did add direct injection to the 3valve V12 with the last generation S Class coupe debut, along with the 7 speed automatic transmission, I believe that was about 2011

Absolutely agree with you - especially the German V 12s are rather "meh" - BUT - the starter sound is one thing that's better than those of the V8s or inline sixes... Rumor has it that the M 120 V 12 in its form only came to be 'cause BMW had their M 70 out with 300 ps and Werner Niefer than claimed: "If BMW is doing a V 12 with 300 PS we're doing one producing 300 KW" - hence why the very early 600 are claimed to have 408 PS...

I rode in a BMW V12, in Germany, in the late 80's. It did not create a sound memory, however, the torque it had was remarkable.

Hispano~Suiza v12. Application was WW1 post war era..."Silent V-12". Great podcast!

There is an unmentioned part of the reason higher cylinder count can make more power. You want as much of the fuel charge as possible to burn before the piston is half way down the stroke. The flame front travels at a finite speed. It is true that increasing redline usually requires a shorter stroke. But as engine speed increases you have less time for the fuel charge to burn which also requires a limit on bore size. Honda and probably others have tried to use multiple injectors and spark plugs. But that competes with the valves for head space and dramatically increases knock risk. Adding more cylinders at constant displacement doesn't automatically increase power. But at the limit it is one necessary step. There are then third order effects of this. A limit on cylinder bore puts a limit on valve size. A limit on valve size puts a limit on airflow at high engine speed. This effeively caps engine speeds ar 21k rpm. An engine can spin faster, but it will almost certainly see rapid power dropoff after 21k rpm.

Wow! I always look to you guys for brilliance. Thank you, guys! You never disappoint!

Oh, unfortunately you forgot about the one and only *7.7l TVR V12!*

Own two straight sixes and couldn't agree more, though the 850i has been on my dream car list for years. The V12 itch is real.

55:45, correction, the GMA T.50 revs to 12,100, not 11,100, that's what it is limited to in the T.33.

@vercingetorige400

Ай бұрын

since the moved the rev limiter in the F1 for the record run in the i think it should be appropriate to upgrade the t33 to 12,1k

@fraserwright9482

Ай бұрын

Given that the T50 engine requires a 4 second start up due to the crank not liking

@vercingetorige400

Ай бұрын

@@fraserwright9482 current one yzf R6?

@rosskj9187

Ай бұрын

​@fraserwright9482 Where is the evidence for this. A longer crank time is more likely due to ensuring oil is being supplied to components. It's unlikely the crank would snap, imagine a stall situation

@vercingetorige400

Ай бұрын

@@rosskj9187 indeed makes no sense that the generator powered by 12 volts would snap the crank

Jason, to call them out and take the beating for the benefit of the general public is a truly truly applaudable benevolent thing. You effectively caused a change for the better.

Great podcast fellas. Just a conversation on v12s is awesome. Great wayto pick a topic. I think a podcast on just V8 would be cool as well. And get well soon Mr. Tam Scott.

56:00 Henry Catchpole just made a video about the T.50... where he drove it. Still the mule (I Believe) but they're getting out there now

Thank you guys for keeping up with this great conversations. Loads of info to process 🌚

There are more advantages to high cylinder count than just higher rpm. One of the most important is the cylinder volume. Smaller cylinders fill more quickly, which requires less air flow at high rpm to fill them, and the smaller space allow better air and fuel mixing. Ideally an engine should have long and narrow intake runners for high air velocity at low engine speeds for low end torque, and this layout also leads to better fuel atomization. However at high rpm you need short and wide runners. A 6.0 V8 will need to flow a higher volume of air into each cylinder at 7000 rpm to achieve 100% volumetric efficiency than a 6.0 V12 will. In this comparison, the V12 will have a wider usable power band due to the intake sizing, and will make more power simply because the cylinders fill faster, burn more completely, which leads to hotter combustion temperatures, higher cylinder pressure, and more power because at it's core horsepower is a function of cylinder pressure and RPM.

One of my very early car memories was a BMW 850CSi... another was a 1st gen Dodge Viper.

About 20 years ago my son’s alarm clock was a Ferrari V12 FI going off-brilliant!

The entire insurance dongle thing needs to be massively regulated to note explicitly that most consumers do **NOT** save money by using it. It is ridiculous the utter lack of consumer protection in the US

Slight correction on your GMA/Cosworth rev limit - the T33 limiter is at 11.1k, but the T50 is 12.1k. Both bonkers.

Jason and Hyphen, I'd like to point you to the following exhaust for the 550, as it sounds (in my ears) fantastic! Fiammenghi exhaust

No all heroes wear capes. Thank you Jason and Hyphen

I had a Veloster N and absolutely did not opt in to the Driving score. I found out about it through a group on Facebook and opted out of the feature. Hyundai or Hyundai dealers were defaulting to collecting driving data without owner consent. It was only opt in to share that info with insurance.

@TheCarmudgeonShow

Ай бұрын

Grrrr. 😡

My 1994 E320 is an inline-6. It's great. Lots of torque, train like & smooth. I enjoy it. I also have two V8s (2000 E55 & 1977 450SL). Aggressive for sure. But for everyday, love the freight train ride.

Regarding the comment at the end about owning a straight 6, I concur. I have owned two E36 M3s with the S52. I love the exhaust note from that engine. I like most all of the straight, naturally aspirated 6s from BMW in the 80's and 90's. Highly encourage everyone (who either have deep pockets or ability to wrench yourself) from owning one.

I really liked the conversation about the "silent era" and the design parameters. I know that pre-war cars don't get as much attention any more, and so that type of knowledge is important to record, lest it be lost to the ages.

Hey guys! I think there may have been a little issue with one off the comments about the first carbon fibre F1 chasis. I think you guys said it was Gordon Murray at Brarbham. But, unless my F1 history is completely wrong. The first full carbon chasis that was actually raced in F1 was designed by John Barnard for McLaren prior to Murray joining McLaren. If im Erin apologies. If I’m then 😉 love the episode though. Love the pod and love all of Jason’s videos on yeh Hagerty YT channel xoxo

They should get two B58s, slap them together and create the goat of all time V12

@pashkaS54

Ай бұрын

The N74 is pretty close. 700+ hp with a tune.

@rahulmenon6073

Ай бұрын

the lotion would then make sense

@Hangoversteer

Ай бұрын

Greatest of all time of all time?

@RmB9104

Ай бұрын

​@@Hangoversteer it's actually greatest (of all time)² so greatest of allest timest

@therealteja

Ай бұрын

2x s58!

I can't wait to watch your episode about the 850 CSI ! 🤪

Looking forward to following the 850CSi journey

The 2-litre iron block with it's Cosworth developed head and intake in my SVT Focus vibrates in delightful ways. Unfortunately mine also has worn motor mount bushings so it creates some weird acoustic resonances around 2,200rpm that are not so pleasant, lol.

Sounds like we need a straight 6 episode

Hey Jason, just wanna give some insight on the BMW M70 and why it lost all its sound compared to the M20. To start, the fuel injection system was updated, which was quieter, and foam blocking plates were added under each intake manifold to silence them entirely. The valvetrain was updated to match the M43 instead of the M20, meaning roller rockers and hydraulic lifters, essentially eliminating noise there too. Electronic throttles and fully cast aluminum intake manifolds, among other small things here and there, eliminated more mechanical noise under the hood. And finally, with the M73, BMW introduced stainless steel exhaust manifolds with a secondary layer for more sound suppression and lowering the amount of radiant heat. I remember reading somewhere that BMW rejected 4 valve designs because they were unable to achieve some sort of refinement goal they wanted for the engine?? So anyway, it was never ever supposed to be used in a "sporty" way. They tried to make it as subdued as possible. Now compare that to the LMR or F1 engine.

Correction: Jaguar's V12 was designed with the XJ12 in mind and then used on the E-type. Actually, the XJ was intended to be a V12 from day one, but it just wasn't doable in time.

The V12 I remember hearing was also while in Germany. While in Munich, at a coffee shop next to the Pedestrian zone, an LM002 and that sound proceeded it, came around the corner. The V10's Lambo has now, no comparison!

Many say the best sounding and one of the best driving cars is the LFA. V10. Many others say Porsche Carerra GT. V10. I know very few who don’t love the Audi R8/Lamborghini huracan v10. Some of the greatest engines stock and with aftermarket are among inline 6s, and V8s. There are even a few V6s and inline 4s that are still great. Inline 3s and 5s are awesome in their own right in certain applications. Calling any one the best just isn’t what a car enthusiast should do. It might be your favorite. That’s all.

Having a G80 M3 that has zero vibration, I agree. I sometimes I am in 4th instead of 6. There is no audible, or feel that the engine is in the wrong gear for freeway at 80. I much prefer the feel of my C8 which has audible cues the engine is doing something. Which is why when somebody askes which car I prefer.....C8 V8 all day.

Lmao Jason hit the nail on the head with the starter comment. The second you hear the starter turn over your brain automatically says ooooo special.

For reference, a "hard braking event" at 6 mph/s deceleration is a measly 0.27 G, when most cars can pull close to 1 G in braking, this is nothing in traffic. Even stopping for a red light could be a "hard braking event", which is insane.

Can you do an episode about how many modern engines are burning an excessive amount of oil? Toyota had a huge service bulletin for their 2.4l four cylinder. Hyundai also had problems, and Audi had a huge recall for their 2.0l turbo four for faulty rings. I've been meaning to produce an episode about it but I'm tired and lazy. Jason gimme some of your extra energy!

Props to Derek for suffering with a cold, through a longer episode than normal.

Honda did(n't) make a V8! The Honda Crossroad which was a rebadged Land Rover Discovery of course had a Rover V8!

I remember going to willow springs with some group. They took a Maybach and do burnouts in and all you could hear were the tires. 0 engine noise

FYI - Gordon Murray delayed the ignition by a certain number of revolutions on startup so that the driver could enjoy the turnover sound of the V12 😎 Also - although the Eb110 engine was a clean sheet design by Stanzani, and later, Materazzi working on the turbocharging (which Artioli - another Piëch - insisted should be quad turbo), the engine was actually manufactured by a local company called Tecnostile, not Bugatti themselves.

Less rotating mass means higher max revs and more power - so long as you can feed it enough air. Smoothing out the power delivery with the additional power strokes could add to the feeling of a driver's car.

The Benoit Blanc piano note at 23:02 is a nice touch.

Eleventy Febtober. That hit me right in the nostalgia.

If any executive reads comments I would like to let you know that Jason said nothing wrong.

Picture of Gordon Murray was legendary!

I’ve gotten the “hard braking” badge on the Allstate DriveSafe thing for engine braking in my Mustang

IIRC for the F1: Murray originally went to Honda to ask for a V10 with power and weight requirements and they flatly refused (cannot remember the reason). He then went to Paul Rosche at BMW M and Rosche delivered the S70/2

1:19 i disagree. From a mere sound perspective i prefer a 5cyl over any 6cyl. (and yes i have heard VW's VR6 in real life as well as BMW's M1 engines and similiar ones.) a very close second for me are big displacement crossplane V8's. (V10's to me sound like a good sounding 5cyl, so i do count them among the 5cyl). 5cyl engines even sound interesting as Diesel cars! Their change in tone over the rev band (the "trumpeting") is special.

Can you do a similar show on the straight six...and vr6?

@aygwm

Ай бұрын

they already did

In the same realm as the GMA T.50/33, and AM Valkyrie, the new Zenvo Aurora is also using a V12.

The shit i would do to own a Jaguar XJR-15 is insane! I still think the Jag V12 is underrated for many reasons but the noise is makes is unmatched IMO.

That Maranello sounds like an angry mountain lion, in a bad way.

Tatra made V12 air-cooled diesel engines to power Tatra T813 heavy military trucks. They sound amazing without mufflers. If you look it up on YT the whining sound is the air cooling high speed fan.

@TheCarmudgeonShow

Ай бұрын

What. In. The. Hell. Is. That. SOUND?! LOL - the gurgling exhaust I understand because it's an odd-fire (75º) V12, but that scream? Must be the belt-driven accessories? Wild!!

@woodendoorgarage

Ай бұрын

@@TheCarmudgeonShow The scream is main ducted fan in front of the V that is driven from the the back of the engine via long shaft. Not sure about the speed but it has its own small gearbox and oil clutch to regulate fan speed based on oil temperature. There are no chains. Everything on the engine is gear driven with exception of alternator. Crankshaft is bolted together from 6 pieces and runs on massive roller bearings. Oh, and it is a dry sump. It was absolute state of the art when introduced in late 50s in V8 variant. Guy down the street has later 80s Tatra 815 with V10 version of the engine. 😁

The only roadgoing v8 honda is the first gen crossroad which is a rebadged land rover disco1.They spent many hours before they were sold by honda in their quality control department in an attempt to bring the quality up to honda standards apparently.

I'm extremely late to the discussion, but are you telling me that Michael Bay was lying to us in Bad Boys 2? Because that car's V12 sounded magnificent.

Also BMW had other V12s. You mentioned the S70/3 which was used in motorsports. BMW also had several F1 prototypes engines that were 3.5l and developed around 720 hp @ 14,500 rpm. These were never raced. One of them was used three camshafts for each cylinder bank with five valves per cylinder. The other had two cams per bank and four valves per cylinder. There's also the M33 V12 from 1972ish which was a 3.0l with 300 bhp. Then the M66 in 1977 4.5l which developed 272 bhp. And I believe you already mentioned the M70 with the M72 and M73 variants. Good episode with the exception of Jason not checking with me about the relationship of the S50 E36 M3 engine to the S70/2. ;) There's also another BMW engine that the S70/2 is related to. hmmm.

Jason...You're providing a public service by making consumers aware of auto manufacture's unethical data collecting and selling. Coincidence these companies are stopping...I think not. Consumer awareness = consumer outrage. Thanks!!!

I enjoy a good I6, but like Piech I beieve in do more with more, so V12 is always the answer. My drug of choice is hands down the bizzarini V12 particularly in the Murci. IRL it literally screams like a woman in ecstasy. The Aventador may be shocking but I find it synthetic like a piece of machinery. I also adore the sound of a Colombo V12 for it's more honest mechanical sound. Considering I'm far too poor for either, I'm just going to shoot for buying some M120 powered sled and putting a sick exhaust on it.

@TheCarmudgeonShow

Ай бұрын

100% yes to all of this.

I remember hearing a merc V12 in stock s600 or something of the sort in the late 90's and it caught my ear with a super sweet burble when the driver floored it in first pretty much to redline. Always kind of wanted one but now, just thinking of the maintenance and the sheer amount of parts and packaging...it's much too fussy, until you can afford to have Cosworth design one for you.

There’s a reason most DOHC V8s don’t go past 5L. The engine just becomes to wide for to required deck height. 4 cylinders tend to stay at 2L or smaller is due to their secondary imbalances. As stroke or piston weight increases that imbalance becomes harder to dampen.

There are loads of Valkyries in Europe already. If I recall correctly it is not legal in the US.

What I think of when I think of V12 is the opening credits of Cannonball Run with the black Lamborghini Countach. ❤❤❤

Gents. The S70/2 head design did not end up on the S50B32 even though the b32 is a derivative of the b30. In fact, the b32 head design is a definite improvement on the b30. The S70/2 head design is essentially very similar to the S50B30 both of which have infinitely variable timing only on the intake side. The S50B32 head design has a vanos that is infinitely variable on intake and exhaust. According to Gordon Murray, the E36 M3 engine is a derivative of the S70/2. He said the E36 M3 (euro engine) is basically one-half of the S70/2 but I wouldn’t take it that far. In the book driving ambitions” “While the S70/2s twin-overhead camshaft and 4-valve per cylinder technology was shared with the high-performance BMW [E36} M3, the distantly related engines were tuned to significantly different torque characteristics.”

@TheCarmudgeonShow

Ай бұрын

I always forget that it's the B30 that shares its basic head design (and single-VaNoS) with the S70/2, not the B32 - whoops!

Can you do an episode on the engines Cosworth had a hand in developing?

@leotam3372

Ай бұрын

And Yamaha - seems like they always have a hand in developing spicy engines

@dschinkal

Ай бұрын

@@leotam3372 couldn’t agree more!

I don’t need a car snitching on me to my insurance carrier to raise my rates. I just live in California where it’s an automatic $800 annual increase citing auto theft/average cost of repair. 🙄 Let us not forget, insurance companies, including Hagerty, are for profit. They are not in business to make people feel good.