What unwritten rules have you seen in Commander in your area? What piece of advice would you give players who are new to the Commander social contract?

@DevouringKing

2 ай бұрын

1. We dont play with Commander Damage. (Annoying to count) 2. We dont play mass Land Destruction 3. We dont play try hard combo decks 4. We try to have not so much mass removals because we love big Army Fights. 5. We try to put many lifegain Cards in the Decks of every Player for more fun with Big Armys. 6. We play many Group Hug Cards in every Deck to help Players who are lacking behind. 7. If a player plays Infect, he dies first.

@pizzafire6666

2 ай бұрын

My group of 5 bought all the fallout decks and I decided to mix my dragon/human/shaman Mass Enchant DRAW deck, and put it into my dogmeat deck which is human Enchant DRAW basically and some of them didn't want me to do this so we can do only fallout decks and want me to spend a small fortune on fallout boosters which our group is doing warhammer 40k and kill team with warhammer stuff and that is already expensive enough, but I bought dogmeat since it would compliment my deck when I mix it and they only said not to mix it AFTER I bought it and had it opened, I wanna know what you think about this I can separate my dragon and fallout cards as I have memorized the cards but when I did the fallout the FLYING commander owl thing just RAMPS so fast and we need a card to wipe it fast which isn't very many and not many or any flying in the other fallout decks which makes it a instant win mostly for whoever has it unless we all team up on them, My Question: Is a Dragon/Human/Shaman Enchant Draw deck a good enough core build or is it too many races and I should remove the shamans to keep it more simple? I don't wanna spend a fortune on a bunch of decks and only buy boosters for those specific decks and it kinda ticks me in a specific way to just not play with the group anymore as it was the group "leader" that said something about it not just once but twice; should I just keep playing until they say something? or should I just make a crappy deck with whatever is left of the 2 decks I mixed and just use that when I play with them for fun or should I stand a decent chance with my cards but they have little to no flying for the dragons?

@Nervar

2 ай бұрын

@@DevouringKingso you just let the life gain deck win every time?

@DevouringKing

2 ай бұрын

@@Nervar The lifegain deck never wins, why you ask ? We do tons of damage. Like 50 damage per turn because we all have big armys.

@Nervar

2 ай бұрын

@@DevouringKing then you arnt playing against any good life gain decks… 50 damage is a joke to em lol like get 100 life each turn busted, like that’s the reason commander damage exists

It's fun how all of this boils down to. "Your win con should not be destroying your opponents will to live"

@marciormariano

2 ай бұрын

doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile....winning is winning. Also, If my opponent knows I'm not caring for these rules....he won't care as well....which only makes things more intresting

@OhNoTheFace

2 ай бұрын

@@marciormariano "I have no friends to play this game with"

@crawdaddy2004

2 ай бұрын

As long as you aren’t pup-stomping Iis it “pup” or “pub”? “Pup” makes more sense to me), do whatever the heck you want. I’ve had people cheat against me in a casual Commander game and won on turn three. Like, if they feel the need to win in a casual game that badly, they need therapy more than anything else.

@mofomiko

2 ай бұрын

@@crawdaddy2004 LMAO literal Pups - no it derives from "Public", a term coined by Gamers. It describes Players, who usually play on ranked, competetive Servers, who go on public Servers, which is usually mostly populated by Casuals and bad Players - where they than just completly obliterate everyone and are constantly on top of the scoreboard. basically bad sportmanship. Like Michael Phelps competing in an Elementary School swimming Competition.

@Flip4Crypt

2 ай бұрын

@@marciormarianothat's just Cedh, which is just a different conversation that the communal experience they're describing based on casual commander

Playing with strangers means be courteous, playing with friends mean do anything you can for a laugh or inside jokes

@robertoso8796

2 ай бұрын

i play a lot of 1v1 edh with buddy and i get to do all the degenerate mean spirited shit i would find extremely distasteful in a 4p game. i always mention how i would never do something this fucked up to literally ANYONE else.

Please note that none of these rules apply to cedh. If anyone says they are playing cedh then get salty when this stuff happens to them, they aren't actually playing cedh.

@benkenning1699

2 ай бұрын

No true Scotsman!

@ryantomczak2248

2 ай бұрын

Or they are just salty people. I would agree that most people do not get that way in cEDH, but there are always exceptions.

@frankcaggiano8282

2 ай бұрын

Most "casual" commander decks y'all build have a minimum of hundreds of dollars of staples that you can't play without. You're all playing poor man's cedh, you just don't want to admit it. I could build five decks with 200 dollars and have way more fun with my actual friends lmao.

@Helixcards

2 ай бұрын

@frankcaggiano8282 lol price doesn't define competitiveness. If that's your mentality, I would love to introduce you to my $75 Zada the hedron grinder tier 2 cedh deck.

@ryantomczak2248

2 ай бұрын

@@Helixcards My LGS does a monthly $50 budget league that is highly competitive. I won turn two at the last league night. Also won a second game by turn four/five.

Hygiene should be one. I just got back into Commander about half a year ago and started going to my LGS to play. Every week there's always someone who has horrible BO or leaves food/trash on the tables or sprawls all their stuff over the next seat, blocking another person from sitting there. It makes me totally uncomfortable and I don't want to embarrass anyone by saying something. It should be common decency to be respectful of the store and other people.

@LadySayeh

2 ай бұрын

YES!

@vincentaponte5726

2 ай бұрын

My local LGS has spray on deodorant in the bathroom 😂

@RJMM

2 ай бұрын

Its an unwritten rule among LGS's to have at least 1 player with BO in every FNM.

@esergio

2 ай бұрын

😂 ​@@RJMM

@thornelson1411

2 ай бұрын

It's going to the LGS and seeing these people makes me sad I'm a nerd at times

Honestly, I think most of these can be boiled down to: 1) respect people's time and company 2) make sure your group is prepared (mentally and deck-wise) for what you're bringing I think these are healthier than the "unwritten rules" discussed tbh

@voltcorp

2 ай бұрын

I get it, but at the same time the whole point of seeing these conversations play out is to share stories and illustrate the argument for people who don't get it. Generalized rules without context won't work for groups of strangers. Human relations are always full of weird edges you can't sand off with a sentence.

@cameton_youtube

2 ай бұрын

@@voltcorp Fair! I don't disagree. Going through specific examples is useful (and makes for a better video lol). However, I would prefer to frame the discussion as a list of things players tend not to be prepared for. I think it better captures the problem, and can lead to a discussion of *how* to prepare for it if your playgroup wants to try out a certain meta

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

I agree, also respect your own time. If you’re playing against stax with no wincon, and you’re locked out of every game action other than ‘draw for turn, play land, pass’ that game is over, just scoop, the stax player doesn’t need a win con, you’re locked out, that IS the win con.

@emberalus2229

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, my largest issue with casual commander is people not taking the game seriously, making it a complete shitshow, giving away wins and resources to other players and just not interacting with threatening plays. To me THAT's not respecting people's time too. To just make the game meaningless while we could've had a nice round of commander where people are trying to win the game in the way they designed their deck to win.

@cstaie85

2 ай бұрын

​@@emberalus2229I get upset when people target the wrong player who is clearly not the threat. The reasoning is, if I kill this other person they will leave me alone... to this I reply, what happens when you are the only one left?

Shoutout from Rachel's old Denver playgroup. Sadly the Charrito Planeswalker himself (Teferi/Chain Veil) recently had to move back to his home state of Minnesota.

@commandcast

2 ай бұрын

Shout out! I didn't know he'd moved back home. The gang's all spread out. That was such a great playgroup. - Rachel

@mattlewis3472

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the warning, I'll keep an eye out for him here 🤣

20:00 In the words of Dan Avidan of Game Grumps, "Knowing where the line is between 'that's funny' and 'im going f'ing kill you' is the difference between being a child and an adult."

@pokedadsam9041

2 ай бұрын

Reading these comments and knowing the type of people with poor social skills this game attracts; they are not finding that line of a shower without being told to.

@MrCenturion13

19 күн бұрын

No. Avidan does not go far enough. The difference is that you care about it. And do something positive and consistent to avoid crossing it.

One of the things we do is ignore the mulligan penalty. Draw 7 cards until you have a playable hand. This doesn't mean draw until you get the PERFECT hand! We also play a lot of 1v1 commander, so removing your opponents commander is pretty common and not really frowned on.

@robertoso8796

2 ай бұрын

personally i consider that a bad idea because of people like me who don't run enough lands. obviously, if you're aware that everybody in your playgroup is on the level with responsibly built decks it's different, but since i never run more than 29 lands anymore, i'm prepared to mulligan once or twice (probably thrice) for a playable hand. so i expect everyone else to be mindful of standard mulligan practices cause i don't expect any sympathy and rarely get any so expect your sob story to draw a blank stare

@andrewjames2210

2 ай бұрын

Curious post on GK video. Ever notice they always play 7? They use the exact same rule. Casual EDH intended to be social & interactive. 1 person sitting & doing nothing while 3 play for an hour clearly not intent of the game.

@robertosnow3841

Ай бұрын

.

@errrzarrr

Ай бұрын

Bad hand. Solution: SHUFFLE the d*mn deck. It's easy. You can learn.

@MrCox-fs6eq

16 күн бұрын

My pod has a similar idea. You get the one free mulligan then we use a two minute egg timer to mulligan as much as you want. It’s pretty fun when you are trying to do it quickly and keeps it relatively fair for everyone else.

"Don't use Wheels!" me, using Nekusar the Mindrazer: "now hear me out..."

@Azuth65

2 ай бұрын

As a Queza, Augur of Agonies player, I agree. The key though is I don't run Narset or Notion Thief to lock the game.

@andrewamann2821

2 ай бұрын

Me, running Nekusar in the 99: who needs wheels, when I can just gorge you with cards, and hobble your ability to play them?

@darkdjinniumbrage7798

2 ай бұрын

@@Azuth65 I admire your kindness and respect of gameplay to allow your opponents to play the game. Personally, since I am group hugging with extra card draw, I do run Opposition Agent. No tutoring your combo pieces, you just have to hope you draw them before you die! Mwahaha!

@Azuth65

2 ай бұрын

@@darkdjinniumbrage7798 in fairness, Notion Thief/Narset are a nonbo with Smothering Tithe lol

@christhompson8003

2 ай бұрын

See... if someone is going to play a mass draw decks with second sun, someone else with infect and another with eldrazi+prators.... then I think discard and wheels are fair game.

I think a crucial unwritten rule is to highlight things on board that make a play an opponent is making an obvious mistake, then letting them reconsider. For instance, if I have an effect on board that my creatures redirect damage dealt to them to any target and an opponent plays a Blasphemous Act I consider it my responsibility to highlight that effect and how they're playing that card would win me the game. Sure, we could capitalise on these gotcha moments and use them to our advantage. However, the alternative is to expect every player to read every card in play every turn to ensure they don't make such a mistake. That would be optimal play, but it isn't fun for anyone.

@magnusprime962

2 ай бұрын

It also takes a lot of time if everyone is reading every card every turn. If you point out specific interactions that a player overlooked on your board you're not just helping the other player, you're saving everyone's time.

@Dragon_Fyre

2 ай бұрын

I will advise my opponents where I feel they are making an obvious mistake, where a ruling they may not be aware of is relevant or where my opponents are new to the game (as educating them on how to play better is more important than winning). If my opponents are just playing badly (such as incorrect sequencing of actions) I will take full advantage.

@timwegley1668

2 ай бұрын

My favorite thing to do is point out that I'm in fact a threat when I feel like I'm close to winning. People don't know what my deck does and they aren't reading my pieces correctly? "This card is really problematic for the table" is enough to get them to refocus on what I could potentially do.

@SovereignwindVODs

2 ай бұрын

yeah, I've done that before. there was a game where I was playing a shrine deck. I forget all the shrines I had out, but it was 8 or 9. One of them was Sanctum of Stone Fangs, and another was Sanctum of All, so I was gonna drain my opponents for 16-18 with what was on board, not to mention the tutor from Sanctum of All grabbing another shrine. It was in the end game, all of my opponents had 15 or less life, and one of them went to Assassin's Trophy my commander. I had to stop them a moment and ask if they had another removal spell, cus if they didn't I was winning after my upkeep with the Sanctum of Stone Fang's drain being doubled by Sanctum of All. guy stopped for a couple seconds and then changed his target to Sanctum of All. I hadn't found the direct damage shrines, unfortunately, so I didn't win on my turn, and the next person in turn order cast cyclonic rift and an extra combat spell to kill everyone with damage. But it didn't feel right to let the first player hit a meaningless target when I had the win on board.

@davidalmodovar5317

2 ай бұрын

But if I told them three rounds ago that my brash taunter redirects damage and they forgot. It’s on them.

1:12:40 What you say "Don't hit me because I kept a bad hand." What you mean "Don't hit me because I kept a greedy hand and got mana screwed."

@OhNoTheFace

2 ай бұрын

Know your group. They know their group is not like that

@ScorpioneOrzion

2 ай бұрын

@@OhNoTheFace true, but with strangers...

@ipsyop

2 ай бұрын

eh I've kept a 3 land hand with castable spells and still ended up not drawing another land after like 3+ turns, and other players were just absolutely sending big ass creatures my way instead of any one where the attack would be way more profitable for them in terms of forcing blocks from actual threats etc. I still ended up winning that game specifically because I finally hit a land and could start snowballing from well placed interaction and gaining card advantage but it was frustrating dealing with genuinely awful threat assessment.

@errrzarrr

Ай бұрын

​@@OhNoTheFace what makes magic great it is a HUGE international community. So, not having to know your community to make it fun is what makes it great.

MLD as a win con is fine, MLD to drag the game out for like 3-4 hours is actually what people get mad about MLD

@nilsjonsson4446

2 ай бұрын

The problem is that even if you put it in your deck as a wincon, you will find yourself in situations when playing it doesn't result in a win but still benefits your odds. (I really like the modal version Rachel played for that reason)

@TheSpiritombsableye

2 ай бұрын

Although your statement is true, mass land destruction isn't a win con. You don't win a game when your opponent has no lands. You win by the opponent decking out or their life reaches 0.

@samv697

2 ай бұрын

Yeah except MLD is just rubbing salt in the wound for decks struggling to play casually

@jacobalbert2603

2 ай бұрын

​@@TheSpiritombsableye MLD can absolutely be a wincon. If I am in a position to win in two...maybe 3 turns and you cast Armageddon to ensure you are not answered, it's a wincon

@Lazydino59

2 ай бұрын

Hard disagree. People don’t like “cast this spell I win if it resolves”. Makes you leave feeling like you didn’t lose because they played better, you lost because they hit the i win button

Josh's rule of thumb "you don't have to go infinite, you just have to go a lot" has been great for my deck building and the games that come from it.

Mass Land/Hand Destruction Kinnan Player "You fool...this won't stop me"

‘Winning out of no where’ rarely happens in my experience. ‘That combo player won OUT NOWHERE! They tutored twice and drew 10 extra cards, but it was OUT OF NOWHERE!’

@kost9478

2 ай бұрын

Out of nowhere is just the excuse of "I wasn't paying attention to what you're doing or doing anything about it"

@secondstarsurvival9056

2 ай бұрын

I agree 100 percent you know combo players as soon as they sit down

@mikekrone4627

2 ай бұрын

Yup no one wins out of nowhere. It's people not doing proper threat assessment or not paying attention or not having interaction in their deck

@morgancarlton4544

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, this is probably biggest disagreement I had. I don't love two-card combos, especially if one is the commander, but multi-piece combos are fine. And big X spells aren't really winning out of nowhere - it takes time to build up 15-20 mana needed to make those reliable kills

@ty_sylicus

2 ай бұрын

Wish I could share the sentiment. I sat down at a table just yesterday with 3 strangers at my LGS and this one player was clearly the shark of the table, while the other players where seemed like Copper Leaguers. I immediately went aggro at him but it wasn't enough. It's difficult to beat an opponent who pulls the strongest cards outta their deck via tutors. While tutoring your wincon / combo will often be spot of contention for me, seeing as how that is just too easy, I try not to let it get to me and enjoy as much of the game as I can up to that point of no hope. It's just so agonizing watching them search their deck knowing it will always be something awful that they find.

I love this type of discussion, it helps everyone who si new or not to the magic commander format to understand how some or all play groups play, those unwritten rules help everyone on how not to lose friends

@sam7559

2 ай бұрын

Unwritten rules do not exist, if you get mad at someone for not following a rule you made up and did not tell them then you're the one at fault. If commander do not want MLD it is their responsibility to ban the 49 MLD cards and eat the fact that it will extend the ban list. Commander plays can't uphold that rule and a short ban list.

@DestinsAPigeon

2 ай бұрын

It really is great. It's basically table manners for commander

@frankcaggiano8282

2 ай бұрын

​@@sam7559found the (very likely stinky) cave troll with no table manners.

@sam7559

2 ай бұрын

@frankcaggiano8282 that's a very rude thing to call autistic people. Rules are rules and if you want people to follow them they must be clearly informed, not require people to read minds. In the commander rules committee like Rachel don't want people to play MLD it is their responsibility to ban those cards instead of taking pride in having a small ban list. They cannot have their cake and eat it too.

@Cybertech134

2 ай бұрын

@@sam7559 "it is their responsibility to ban the 49 MLD cards" The RC doesn't actively balance the game regularly. Imagine saying this and not realizing this is why rule zero exists.

This is like a PTSD podcast for MTG victims

Surprised that "Don't play heavy stax" wasn't on the list as part of the first batch of MLD and mass discard. Playing against more than a couple of pieces of this can feel pretty much the same. I'm talking about things like Winter Orb, Static Orb, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, etc, especially when backed up by counter-magic.

1:24:35 this made my day. I work at a hockey rink and I have seen the difference between serious and “boys night” games and how chill both sides always are

@OhNoTheFace

2 ай бұрын

The "I have work tomorrow" really is the best point of it too haha

@mightyone3737

2 ай бұрын

@@OhNoTheFace This makes me think of how weird growing up is, always wondering as a little kid why my parents didn't seem to do exciting things, not understanding that full time work with limited vacation time is incredibly draining, especially when many years that vacation was used to do necessary farm work.

Jake should be on the mic more. I like his point of view.

@kraftounpiyaso2857

2 ай бұрын

Me too

A few years ago I convinced a handful of my Yu-Gi-Oh friends to start playing edh and they took to it with the same competitive mindset of Yu-Gi-Oh, lo and behold the same issues they were having with Yu-Gi-Oh they were having with commander from cost to stale gamestates and feeling bad when they win too fast or get stopped by stax. We now have a customised banlist and ideology document that we sat down and compiled together. Commander is now way more fun with that group because they're in a position to have more fun with it

@commandcast

2 ай бұрын

This is such a great way to respond to that situation! I'm so glad it worked out with your playgroup.

weaponizing rules is why i fell in love with golgari toolbox decks "oh my stuff dies thats okay he will return"

Always make sure you have the combo player explain how they win, especially if they just go "I draw my deck and win!"

@FlyboyEz3

2 ай бұрын

What if the player has multiple lines to combo?

@kfunky209

2 ай бұрын

@@FlyboyEz3 I would still ask them to show their work, it's not a matter of trust but a matter of do they know the line? Cause if they just saw the combo on a stream or something and they may not know the proper sequence. I had a friend who did the Academy Ruins + Nev disc combo and he said that he won, with the state of the game he had no clear win and we were able to power through it

@Sky_Sovereign

2 ай бұрын

​@FlyboyEz3 then you will sit there patiently and observe

@Volkbrecht

2 ай бұрын

And always keep in mind that you can't PAY more life than you have, only LOOSE more than you have when leaning on some sort of "you can't loose the game" effect.

@GoliathGTX

2 ай бұрын

​@@Sky_SovereignThat is fine by me if I were the combo player. I like playing out the combo.

To the denying commander thingy, let's be honest, you know when you play a commander that has to be removed on sight, you choose whether to play them or not, it's a bit on you too.

@51gunner

2 ай бұрын

Zero sympathy for the Toxrill decks. If I see the slug on top of a deck, I'm saving removal or counters because if I don't, my game is over.

@SuperAmaton

2 ай бұрын

Same for Atraxa, Miirym or Chullain. Because if you let them live, you are going to lose because these Commanders create too much value for you to keep up.

@51gunner

2 ай бұрын

@@SuperAmaton Agreed, someone at my LGS plays a Chullain deck and it's absurd how fast that gets out of hand. Constant ramp & card draw needs to get smacked right away.

@autumnlotus6250

2 ай бұрын

Depends on the commander, and also if you explain them accurately. There's definitely way to play top tier commanders like they are a 7. It's if you are a Liar that it's a problem

@missivory_missraine

Ай бұрын

​@@autumnlotus6250Even if it's a "7" they're STILL powerful. It's still a threat that MUST go away. Because unless you're playing with your hand exposed and your top deck is always face up. I'm not trusting a chulane player with "I'm just a small guy" defense.

Haha it's birds now was a perfect intro 10000/10

Land destruction is fine if it is a part of a game-winning combo. I have no problems with Tergerid and discard because, again, it's going to be a relatively fast win-con. They're fine. The issue comes when you're purposefully wasting time just to make games miserable. I have zero issues with any conditions like stax, or land removal, or discard, as long as the deck is built to take advantage of these pieces, and have a strategy that equates to an actual, relatively midgame win.

@hobez64

2 ай бұрын

One of my friends made a Livinia Azorius Stax deck. I asked them what their plan is, and they said "Keep people from popping off and keeping everyone equal". I asked how they plan on winning, and they said "My goal isn't to win, I didn't put a win con in here" He is still shocked and calls me childish when I tell him I do not want to play against that deck. I'm not gonna sit down and play a game for 2.5-3 hours, even against fun decks, let along winconless stax

@gn0s1s

2 ай бұрын

Definitely, the description of the feels bad turn one wheel (was it winds of change, or was there ramp involved for a standard wheel (of fortune) ) If their deck is lets say for arguements sake, a grixis reanimator, or muldrotha (depending on the wheel used) because the wheel left him with no lands turn one...sounds like super bad luck or bad deck composition. I didn't really get the point he was trying to make about, look mass discard is bad. What's doubly wierd is they have no issues with Drannith Omen machine, or Drannith possibility storm, which does the same thing, no one can play the game, that goes for most stax locks.. so i don't see how mass discard which is way less restrictive, is somehow the boogey man.

@braveothello1896

2 ай бұрын

Stax player: "My wincon is commander damage" Sir your commander is a flying 3/3

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

I don’t know, I don’t even have a problem ‘no wincon stax’, if you’re locked out of all relevant game actions, that game is over, the stax player doesn’t need a ‘win condition’. Pass turn til you eventually run of cards because you can’t do anything is a win condition.

@meyeneetuks4680

Ай бұрын

⁠@@HomeCookinMTGthe stax player absolutely needs a wincon IF they still want a group to play with

This was probably my favorite podcast episode since I started watching the command zone. The unwritten rules end up coming up in ways I never expected as I’ve been learning. I didn’t know I disliked “winning out of no where” until it happened to me and when it happened I couldn’t put my finger on what it was that I didn’t like. It just made me feel bad. This video explained it perfectly and also opened my eyes to other things I hadn’t thought of. Thank you guys for an awesome podcast!

Jake, Murph, and Rachel in the same episode? Dunno what I did to deserve this but thank you 🎉😂

I think the "winning out of nowhere" argument is only a problem because Commander players don't use the term "Battlecruiser" anymore. Combos are necessary to combat the insane value engines of land ramp (basically Simic in general). Playing lands, and especially extra lands, is the most powerful mechanic in Magic, and if MLD is mostly off the table, then Combo must exist. If the whole table should be building to something then playing a pay-off - that's Battlecruiser.

@anythingyoucandoicandobett6586

2 ай бұрын

I think the issues with winning out of nowhere is just that is unforeseeable and not easily prevented. One of the core components of the game is interaction, and being able to plan strategies and respond to other players. If you win out of nowhere it kind of forces others to lose their agency. They had no control. There was nothing they could have done. and that's just not very fun. And you can say all day that its just a strategy in the game but there are tons of strategies in the game that are objectively not fun for people to play against.

@barrelrollio

2 ай бұрын

@@anythingyoucandoicandobett6586 I think "winning out of nowhere" is really a knowledge gap. The element of surprise is useful, but only for a game. Shuffle up, play another, and look for the play patterns. Certain play patterns can signal archetypes. Planning a strategy and never altering your tactics is textbook Battlecruiser. It's not up to the owner of a deck to solve it for you.

@weirdo82

2 ай бұрын

​​@@anythingyoucandoicandobett6586 But you do know that your criticism on combos works just as much on land ramp, right? How much "agency" does the table have when a land deck has more lands than the table COMBINED by turn 3 or 4, then they'll blow up all mana rocks because they don't need them? The best thing you can do is remove the enablers, but they already do their job. Playing lands, even extra lands, doesn't use the stack. It's easier to stop an infinite combo than it is to stop players from playing lands.

@Glanbalf

2 ай бұрын

Fully agree, once you know how to spot a dangerous setup that a player may use to combo off, then it's much less of a feel bad. Plus if it happens turn 7-10, then it's as good as any other wincon, a behemoth + hasty creatures would do the same.

@Volkbrecht

2 ай бұрын

@@Glanbalf Agree. The game is in a state where even casual decks can do pretty evil stuff past turn five, so the feel-bad of win combos isn't so bad any more. Especially since certain commanders and playstyles hint at the possibility. Don't leave the control player alone just because doesn't have a big board. Someone is playing Krenko? Urza? Narset? You should be prepared for what is coming right out of the gate.

I think something to note about infinite combos is, how many pieces the combo takes. If you gradually assemble a 5 card 27 mana costed combo then I think it’s completely fine to play in a casual pod.

I have a Tomik, Weilder of Law Superfriends deck that runs a few pieces of mass land destruction with the idea being "well I can get out a few Planeswalkers, wipe lands, and then still be able to do things while opponents have to slowly rebuild. But I told my group ahead of time that that is one of the ways this deck looks to get its advantage and win. As with anything it's about communicating

Jake, Murph, please. I'm a friend of Rachel's. - Jim

@TheSpiritombsableye

2 ай бұрын

Context please.

@SpectraOcean

2 ай бұрын

@@TheSpiritombsableye watch the video

Countering ramp should be fair game against a landfall deck

One of my personal rules is that I explain what to expect for turns with the deck and how I might win so that the table can get an idea of what kind of power level they think they need to play accordingly. This really makes it easier to get proper games in with strangers. Here is an example; Turn 1, 2, and 3, I will likely get some ramp going, turn 4, 5, 6, I should have some of my piece's major pieces together that my deck is built around, 7, 8, 9 prepare for slaps. I find that talking out what to expect from the turns makes it easier to get an idea about the true power levels of decks. Especially to folks that have been playing commander for a hot minute.

THIS is why I love this channel! Need more videos like this one, please.

Torment of Hailfire rarely - if ever - "wins out of nowhere" in my experience. If a player has ramped enough that they can cast it for X = 15 or higher, they have ramped for the entire game without being taken out, so this is their big "pay-off", aka not happening out of nowhere. And even then, it's not garanteed to win against lifegain decks or decks that can just throw out tons of permanents while also drawing a lot of cards (decks like Aesi or Chulane, amongst many others, come to mind). I understand while it's a salt-inducing card, but I personally would contest against anyone actually saying it wins out of nowhere.

@raedien

2 ай бұрын

Yuuup, straight hypocrisy. Sub Torment for Finale of Devestation and suddenly "it's fine."

@Svefngengill

2 ай бұрын

I made a similar point in a comment. "Infinite combos" often get slotted into decks because "hey, I'm already running this card, I can spare a slot for this piece that lets me go infinite". But that doesn't mean the deck is all of a sudden super consistent or even powerful. If there are no tutors and you maybe hit that combo once every 10 games, then no one is ever going to call that a "combo deck". But compare that to the average deck you see on game knights that "just" build up, and "do things" but don't "win out of nowhere", ie scrappy decks, then you see they're playing decks that *often* churn out board states that consist of multiple powerful timmy cards which with a haste enabler can easily one turn kill you. But the "infinite" combo is automatically cEDH no matter how janky it is? Consider a wonky voltron deck that has maybe one infinite combo slotted in vs a dragon tribal deck that runs an Ancient Brass Dragon. One good roll of that d20 and you might as well have won the game. But if the rest of the dragon deck is just mediocre, then you can consider that ABD as a "one piece combo" in the 99. So is the slotted in "infinite combo" automatically stronger than a slotted in ABD?

@ryantomczak2248

2 ай бұрын

What if they play an infinite mana combo that wasn’t in play beforehand? Is that winning out of nowhere?

@Svefngengill

2 ай бұрын

I mean, if someone plays an eldrazi, and a turn cycle later no one drew into removal. Then for all intents and purposes they might as well have "won out of nowhere". If someone goes to play an infinite combo, but someone plays a counter spell they happened to have in hand, then that person essentially timewalked themselves. One "feels" worse than the other, but they're essentially very similar. It's similar to people's perception of mill. Some people look at mill as "depriving them of cards" they would otherwise have drawn. But essentially you could consider the fact that if those cards had been shuffled differently you might not have milled them, but you would not have drawn them either. The exception is if you're playing tutors, but especially if you're *reliably* tutoring for things, you don't really have anything to complain about because you're playing at a power level where mill is probably inherently weaker than your deck. "Oh I didn't draw into an answer to the Eldrazi" somehow *feels* less bad than "oh I hadn't drawn into a pre-emptive answer to an infinite combo", but are largely the same.

@Nr4747

2 ай бұрын

@@Svefngengill You're comparing apples to oranges because there isn't a single Eldrazi that wins the game out of nowhere.

I still think it's goofy that massive ramp is perfectly acceptable, but mass resource denial is super frowned upon.

@Alestier1

Ай бұрын

I think the issue is that it punishes players who aren't doing it. Say someone is ramping hard and someone else is struggling. How does wiping all lands off the table help the experience for the others? If someone is ramping hard, why aren't they being made public enemy? Politic the point and deal with the player as a group of 3 and remove their key pieces.

@mgerdes0331

Ай бұрын

@@Alestier1 if you reset everyone to zero it literally evens the playing field. But even broad land removal strategies are treated like some kind of cardinal sin.

@Alestier1

Ай бұрын

@@mgerdes0331 I hear you. But say player 1 ramps super hard and scares the table. Player 2 is doing average for the turn. Player 3 is struggling. Player 4 wipes all lands to stop player 1. It doesn't STOP player 1, it just freezes their state. It doesn't help the other two who may have already committed some resources to get back into the game that are now stripped all away. The number of lands may match, but that's not the same as saying "the playing field is now equal."

In my playgroup we have something called the "GODSCRY". If a player is so behind that all other players want them to draw action to spice up the game, then they can. You may GODSCRY on your upkeep, until you find action. Not a SPECIFIC piece of action, that's the GODTUTOR that is reserved for ultimate "what if" spite play after the game ends.

Denying/protecting commanders is literally how you win in the format. If you’re going to play an Etali or Atraxa as your commander, I’m countering it and you should expect that.

@steambud1013

2 ай бұрын

no it is absolutely not lmao. what your describing is a kill on sight commander. that is way different from denying commanders simply because you would rather play solitaire with yourself. there are alot of modern day magic players who you can tell play/played/or should play yugioh. modern day yugioh is about stopping your opponent from playing as quickly as possible. this seems to be the exact same thing i see in most commander groups where the players are new/learned from arenas, and largely something i only see in newer players (players who started during/after 2020). its very telling to me that whether its a video game or card game, modern day players would rather sacrifice all fun for the sake of optimization, very disappointing to see the state of games nowadays.

@deanofcool

2 ай бұрын

@@steambud1013I have to agree with you. Those don’t win the game in and of themselves. They are more kill on sight.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

Not really? Not every commander is a 7 drop bomb that wins the game, and not every deck even needs its commander to function. Go ahead counter my raffine, my aristocrats game plan works just fine without it lol.

@docauch5938

2 ай бұрын

@@HomeCookinMTG Im not countering Raffine. Raffine and Etali have very different impacts on the game when played.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

@@docauch5938 I think ya kinda missed my point. My point was that not every deck needs its commander to function or even cares about it. I’ve had plenty of commander decks built around an interaction in the 99 and the commander was just for colors. So denying a commander isn’t necessarily a guaranteed win

I recently started watching you guys more and more after Rachel joined! The new video formats really are such a delight to watch/listen to!!

Absolutely fantastic episode!! Top notch. Really enjoyed the banter as you explored the different 'dos' and 'do nots' facets of the game's rule 0. Well done.

Gotta agree, that's one of the most memorable game I had watch on Command Zone. Great job Guys! That was a good call Jake and Murph.

Dude Dovescape is one of the funniest spells in the game

I agree with a lot of this! But I had a thought. At what point is this more a sense of entitlement (not in a bad way just don't know what else to call it) for how a game SHOULD go, and does this place certain archetypes, commanders, and within reason, some cards, in a bucket of an unwritten ban list, or said differently without saying it: "oh you're playing THOSE cards, you're not playing like us." (Thanks so much for bringing up this topic and bringing in more opinions on this episode, truly!) This is all Rule 0 aside, which to me is honestly a flawed thing as it is because there are no rules like we said it's more about experience and i think that can go beyond the cards, more the people at the table, being aware, and being fun. the cardboard is truly just cardboard.

@mikekrone4627

2 ай бұрын

So much this! All I heard this entire episode is "someone did something I didn't like so no one should ever be able to do that ever" Bunch of crybabies!

I'm so glad, I'm in a playgroup where my discard deck is appreciated. It brings me much joy to hit the right card, when I let someone discard a card at random and the table usually is excited about it.

@GallantLee

2 ай бұрын

Nice! I think it's a phase people eventually get to. Beginners play to win, and play some offensive cards/playstyles but lack the finesse - like simple edict tribal, then they hit pugs and realise there are 'unwritten' rules which end up being "let people play solitaire", but then realise this is kinda boring and occassionally feel disillusioned when their adjusted decks meet combo/hatebear/light stax decks. Then the next stage is you realise it's fun to actually play against different strategies, and you need to allocate cards to shore up weaknesses in decks. Like a graveyard deck should be prepared to face a rest in peace.

@Robert-vk7je

2 ай бұрын

@@GallantLee Good example! It does feel good to successfully fight against feel-bad cards in a game of magic. It's a part of what makes magic a great game in the first place. :) But always be mindful, when you mess with your opponents ressources, because not every threat is a threat to you and it's best to keep a low profile, until you can secure the win.

58:00 I've always liked to view _every_ game of magic as the same type of shared storytelling as a tabletop RPG campaign expects. In my eyes, players of magic are collaboratively writing a new plane of reality into existence every time they play a game, remembering pieces of our shared akashic memory spanning across diverse multiverses until they coalesce into an experience that becomes a shared idea. We quite literally start the game by remembering the earth into existence and then tapping its resources to access fictional realities to create a new narrative through on board interactions. That's why I don't build my decks to win anymore, I just build to not lose.

@viperdragon35lol6

5 күн бұрын

i dig this!

I'll cop to running a little mass discard in Xantcha, on the theory that it comes down after Xantcha and forces everyone to trigger Xantcha's activated ability to draw more cards. In practice it doesn't mean nobody can play, but rather "everyone's got to spend mana rebuilding their hand and dinging the Xantcha controller."

@defro125

2 ай бұрын

I think that is fine, it enables your game plan.

@OhNoTheFace

2 ай бұрын

You have a plan with it

@JustASpider980

Ай бұрын

A friend of mine just built this deck a couple weeks ago. Same reasons and everything

Mass land destruction is ok if you win that turn or the next turn because of it.

I really like this video.. I wish I had gotten to watch this when I first started playing Commander. On the topic of "Monopolizing the Game clock," I used to spend a lot of time thinking about the most optimal play and keeping others from playing the game through my long turns. I'm much happier after making the adjustment and admitting that I *could* spend 5 minutes choosing the most optimal play, or I can chalk it up to Magic being super complicated and make the best play I can think of right away, or after a small amount of consideration.

This may be my favorite episode. What a fantastic discussion!

I was playing in an lgs one time, and this guy told me, "I think it's impossible for me to build a deck under pl 9." And I was sitting there with a deck that was about a 6 and was like cool man, I guess I sat at the wrong table.

@DaveyDAKFAE

2 ай бұрын

Speaking as someone who likes to super optimize my decks (to the limit of my budget) and play them as optimally as I can, that guy just doesn't know how fun it is to build with restrictions. I have a no-instants-or-sorceries lurrus companion deck so every card is a 2mana or less permanent. I have pauper EDH decks that are a 6 at best, that are still the absolute best I think a pauper monocolor deck can be. That guy doesn't like optimizing decks and clever deckbuilding, he likes winning and cheap excuses to win more often.

@generaldysentery7428

2 ай бұрын

@DaveyDAKFAE I play to have fun, winning to me is secondary. So I see guys like this, and the fact that there was no rule 0, as a huge problem to new players. It just becomes why am I playing this game if these guys just keep pubstomping me. I do love playing and optimizing decks, but I see losing as a way to learn my deck and playstyle weaknesses.

@alecmullaney7957

Ай бұрын

You could have asked to borrow one of their PL9 decks

I like Jake. He should be on more. I like his analogies and insights

This is actually quite relevant to me right now. I've lived in Japan for the past 6 years and have had only 1 dedicated playgroup. I know how they play, what they like/don't like, and what's acceptable. I'll be moving back home in a month, and will have to find a new group/LGS to play with. I'm going to have to be VERY mindful of how I present myself and how I play with new people. I hope I do alright, lol.

Speaking of conceding, there is a player in my play group that started as the “I don’t surrender no matter what” and is now “you destroyed my creatures I give up.” He would get mad when he would either imprison my commander or attack me and I would attack back or play removal on his commander back. It was an interesting transformation to witness.

also winning out of nowhere isn't that bad in my play group. If happens just means more games. But if its a combo just know it and walk the table through. Could be stopped or you could screw up the line. Thats my play groups rule for combos, no going back on steps

@Logic-cg7qy

2 ай бұрын

It also contradicts their previous point about making the game go long. Actually the whole video is full of contradictions.

@erik.pajula

2 ай бұрын

​@Logic-cg7qy Yeah, this video is pretty harmful to the community.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

Also winning out of nowhere rarely happens. Did they really win out of nowhere? Or did you not pay attention to the tutor spell and 5-10 extra cards they drew?

I feel like Rachel hates mass discard more because she doesn’t really play the card draw colors too much 😅

Countering Sol Ring ist not about the Spell itself. Its about the Message!

23:40 that reminds me of one: What makes Commander or Highschlander so unique was the rule of one, and the fact that you have 100 cards. Instead of the usual 60 and 4 of each. Which means there was suspense, surprise and so many different ways you deck could play and win, making each deck feel different. Tutors get rid of exactly that, since it just means essentially more 'copies' of that one card you're looking for and then usually combo off. Of course land 'tutors' are an exception, since it's just mana fixing/ramp. But others were heavily frowned upon in our group.

The saltiest I've ever been in Commander was a game where one player was playing hard stax (Grand Arbiter Augustin IV) and another player was taking ages between game actions, leading to me essentially saying "draw, land, go" every 20 minutes or so. I think a lot of this comes down to "Your opponents want to play Magic: the Gathering, so don't do things that stop them from playing Magic: the Gathering" which is good advice!

@maxbodifee3263

2 ай бұрын

Just scoop and sit at another table. Time is precious

Mass LD should be allowed. As long as farewell, vandalblast, cyc rift are allowed yo wipe out all non green ramp. LD should be allowed to blow up green ramp.

@seandun7083

2 ай бұрын

My problem with it is that it doesn't just hit green players, it hits everyone. Black and red players are often hit the hardest as they don't have any way to avoid it. Now if we were to get more cards like Natural Balance which hit the green ramp players hard while everyone with reasonable land amounts is mostly fine then I would be okay with that.

@steambud1013

2 ай бұрын

if you find some mld that only affects green players then feel free!

@fangornfan

2 ай бұрын

⁠@@steambud1013That card exists. It’s called Acid Rain.

@steambud1013

2 ай бұрын

@@fangornfan then feel free to run it if you want! :)

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

Check out the card Confounding Conundrum. Tends to fuck green ramp up pretty hard.

The game narrative portion is very well-struck. It is something all commander players should hear.

Interesting about the concede at sorcery speed. Theres one player that miffs me because they are a combo player, Theyll win out of nowhere a lot since they have a lot of infinite combos, or they'll go back on their word a lot. They conceded one time when they were behind causing another player to not be able to cast their high cost commander since they stole a mana rock, this player also conceded when he got his board mostly wiped even though he was sitting at 90hp so he could still bring it back while people were building up the boards but I was playing a semi upgraded mothman and needed the rad counters from him as well and to not be the sole focus of the most ahead player at the moment. They also get mad when people target him since "he's not a threat yet"

Most of these rules I would consider fairly obvious. But then I remember I sell cards to people for a living. You would be surprised and/or disappointed at the number of people who just want to inflict as much wanton misery as possible on their group.

"I could do this, or I could do that and this all goes together!" That's why I purposely don't run Exquisite Blood with my Sanguine Bond in my BW Lifegain deck.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

I literally stopped putting deadeye navigator into decks because it’s too easy. Damn thing could infinite with a literal turd.

I’m ngl I’ll always continue playing mld, it’s a strategy in commander too. My current decks theme is get planeswalkers and cast jokulhaups or obliterate. It’s awesome

This would be a video you should watch all the way till the end…. Very good job wrapping this up and putting it in perspective…..

3:02 JLK busts through the wall like the Kool Aid Man anytime someone mentions value😂

Mass Land Destruction is good when you have a way to actually be able to win like mana dorks or a boardstate

I was playing with a friend 1 v 1 which is essentially not cedh, his commander was Narset, enlightened master, mine was Yennett. His attack with her triggered a free Armageddon. I had no answers but fortunately had 2 mana rocks. On my turn attacking with Yennett, I top decked with OG Sheoldred and put her in play for free. He responded on his turn attacking with a free removal on my Yennett. I responded with Ghostway on Sheoldred, evading the removal using the 2 rocks, which is Orzhov signet and Sol Ring. He scooped next turn as he needed to sac his Narset at his upkeep.

Mass land destruction is kinda raunchy, but I firmly believe targeted land destruction needs to be in more decks at every level from the most casual to the most hardcore.

"You will be tried as an adult" is a really good way to put it after the new guy/gal demonstrates the ability to keep up. Gloves off, welcome to the pod!

@jameswells8114

Ай бұрын

The beatings I took after the first month or so were brutal 😂

I've stated this before in a response to another command zone video but it's worth saying again: If you are running a kill on sight kind of commander, don't get mad when people interact with it. It's not reasonable to expect players to not try to remove a game ending threat. For example, I have a deck with Kaalia as the commander and I'm anticipating that you to try to remove her. You have to or you will die. And if you succeed, I'm not going to begrudge you for doing what you must to avoid getting smashed into a bloody paste. After all, it was my choice to run something that's kill on sight. My advice to others in this situation is: A. Don't do that (run something less threatening) or B. Learn to build and play around it.

@phillipfry8141

2 ай бұрын

the good thing about a Kaalia deck is that the deck will continue to run without kaalia... I've discovered that if somebody kills Kaalia, she's basically out for the rest of the game because at 6 mana, you just hard cast whatever demon or angel you were going to cheat in anyway. So you either pray she doesn't die, then cheat in Avacyn, or if she dies, then you just start hard-casting whatever 5-7 mana angel you were going to sneak in anyway.

@autumnlotus6250

2 ай бұрын

I agree to an extent. But if everyone is removing the commander, every single time, and it's not reasonable for you to constantly have countering options available, the pod is not allowing you to play commander

@missivory_missraine

Ай бұрын

@autumnlotus6250 Okay don't run a kill on sight commander. Or, you build knowing you're an archenemy and with that in mind build interaction to keep your commander alive.

@autumnlotus6250

Ай бұрын

@missivory_missraine or I play with people that don't assume malice from me, and take me at my word. Yknow, not psychos

@missivory_missraine

Ай бұрын

@autumnlotus6250 If you're playing pub games, and nobody knows you. They're going to look at a kill on sight commander and assume the worst. Hence, if you don't like using a kill on sight commander due to commander hate. Use a less powerful commander, or sub that commander into your 99 and use another commander as your general commander. It's not hard.

i had someone join our LGS for commander and made a Hilda deck with Augustin IV in it. everything is expensive, everything is stunned and tapped. they then got upset and stopped playing when we'd remove their stuff. seems like no amount of rule 0 was going to deal with that though. i also had a situation where someone played an Armageddon because 'he thought it'd be funny' and the other two players immediately wanted to concede and i said no, let's play this out. i ended up winning still, and it felt so great. i had learned my lesson from the week before where someone finally got their Teferi's Puzzle Box / Notion Thief combo out right after a Cyclonic Rift, and we all conceded. i realised later, like Jake was saying, that it didn't actually end the game. we still could have forced them to play it out so they could see what it's actually like for that kind of board state one of my own derp moments was with Disciple of Caelus Nin, which phases out everything but 5 permanents. i figured that it just phases everything out, and it all comes back if it gets removed. this was was in a 3-player game, and there was one player storming off with an enchantress deck and had about 20 permanents, just so many lands and enchantments. the other player was playing Nekusar with only 7 permanents on the board (5 lands and 2 creatures, neither were Nekusar). despite that, the Nekusar player still countered it. the fact that they had to make a choice between lands and other creatures on their board, they still didn't want it, even though it was a clear answer for the enchantments that were building up

My pod has a free mulligan rule. So you can mulligan as much as you want to fet a decent opening hand, but you cant keep a sol ring hand after your first mulligan. We always do a decklist power level discussion before the game starts. We try to level the power levels as much as possible.

@ADamItalian1173

2 ай бұрын

So no one just mulligans until they get an almost perfect hand?

@bryceosborne4357

2 ай бұрын

How do people evaluate the power level of a deck when its new? This is something I personally struggle with, as a deck list on paper can look stronger/weaker than it really is

@brycemattson4913

2 ай бұрын

@@ADamItalian1173when I’ve done this nobody mulligans more than 2 or maybe 3 times because they actually want to play the game and shuffling takes a while. I’d only do it with my buddies though, because we all have the same expectations and we know what to expect from each other

@lebebop9931

2 ай бұрын

@@ADamItalian1173 no, we all have been playing together for years. None of us try anything too egregious. We also never take usually more than 2 or 3 mulligans, if we do at all. We're here for fun more than anything.

My LGS has no unwritten rules outside of the ban list. My friend runs MLD in his Kaalia deck, several people take 10 minute turns spinning their wheels with card advantage engines while everyone else watches, another guy just straight up plays CEDH decks at every table, and I'm casting Myojin of Night's Reach from my hand for free to discard everyone else's hands. This is a lawless wasteland.

This is such a great topic to talk about! Also i think its funny how rachel looks so short sitting in between murph and jake

Just got back into watching content about Commander and I have to say Ms. Weeks is an absolute gem of an addition to the team.

Normalize Land Destruction. I'm a Gates player... It basically a free win for me nowadays.

@TheTramil

2 ай бұрын

Gates and Glacial chasm are some of the reasons why normalising non-basic land destruction is necessary!

@51gunner

2 ай бұрын

@@TheTramil Maze of Ith is another one that just takes some strategies out of the game. If you're playing a Voltron deck to power up your commander and someone just Mazes your commander over and over you're kind of stuck until you can remove the Maze. If lands keep getting printed with more and more utility then they need to be removable.

@Destrudo5359

2 ай бұрын

Exile your guy. Gg

I don't really get salty about anything. Steal my permanents? Go for it. Destroy my lands? No problem. Force me to discard my hand? Alright. But....... Steal my time by taking ridiculously long turns??? We will never play together again!

One thing that wasn't mentioned, which I have seen come up a bit, is eliminating one player when you're ahead. If one player is winning and they have a good attack, but it's not quite enough to take everyone out, it's often in their interest to take out as many opponents as they can so they have the best chance of making it to their next turn. The issue is when someone does have the removal spell or the board wipe and now that one player is out for 4 or 5 rounds. I have a Boros deck that just does its best to smack people around and not much else, which often runs into this problem.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

That’s not really an unwritten rule IMO. Sometimes you get taken out early. I casted a summoners pact on t3 once and someone killed my mana dork and I died to my pact. Wasn’t mad about it, sometimes you lose early.

That Dovescape story has me thinking back to a Zur deck I one made that had a combo of Humility, Dovescape, and Ethereal Absolution (played as a combo with Replenish if necessary) to lock the entire field. All noncreature spells create doves that instantly die due to Absolution's -1/-1 debuff, while all my doves are 2/2s due to the buff, and all creatures that aren't mine lose all abilities and die. People have the ability to play any card they can pay for, but it literally doesn't matter what they cast, as the result is the same: no board impact.

At around 47 minutes when you guys bring up torment of hailfire, or maybe something like exsanguinate, they are not out of nowhere, in order to WIN with them, you have to be able to build a huge mana base throughout the game, I've never played an exsanguinate on turn 5 for a win, its always late, it always has several other cards to make it possible, you just weren't expecting it. Any comments are welcome, but, I will stand by that. Not every deck can make enough mana to just straight win with these cards.

@51gunner

2 ай бұрын

Good point! I had a mill deck (Phenax) that ran Mind Grind for a while, before I cut it - realizing that while it could theoretically mill a huge amount of cards, it's actually pretty hard for the deck to get to a point where X can be big enough to win or even have much of an effect. It's also got some bad whiff potential if cast for something like X = 7 and the opponent rips Land, Land, Land, nonland, Land, Land, nonland, Land, Land - instead of grinding out a bunch of cards from a deck, I've prevented a bad case of mana flood. Torment of Hailfire really needs huge amounts of mana thrown into it; if there's a token deck on the table or someone with a big hand or both they might just ditch 3-4 cards, sac a half-dozen tokens, and pay like 9 life and carry on. Exsanguinate for X = 10 probably won't kill players unless there's been a lot of other effects, and the gain of 10-30 life (depending on player count) may not even protect you for long depending on what the other players have been up to. Life total is irrelevant to commander damage or getting milled. Is it that people hate losing in phases other than the combat damage step?

@franslair2199

2 ай бұрын

I run torment in my prosper deck as one of the main wincons, the thing is I play descent into avernus too so I provide my opponents with tons of things to sacrifice to my own torment. They have to spend their treasure on their bombs for me to actually benefit from the card.

@VexylObby

Ай бұрын

The existence of fast mana and treasures makes 15 mana more feasible and earlier than ever. Which makes that spell even more of a feel bad than ever.

I'm a newer commander player, almost a year into it and I think the thing that drives me nuts the most are those that like to show off...for example I had a guy that took literally 20mins to take his one turn because of all his triggers...just to kill all 3 of us with 52 billion damage...it's like dude we only have 40 life you don't need 52 billion....we all were ready to concede after 10mins in Another ive come across is when we go to start a game and it is asked "how casual are we playing" and the group agrees very casual and someone pulls out their tryhard deck...its like id hate to see what their challenge deck looks like of thats casual to them

Playing online this morning and turn 3 an opponent played Static Orb and turn 4 played Mana Vortex. He then wondered why all of us banded together to kill him first. 😆

In the past my favourite card was Death Cloud.... "What feeling are you trying to give your group?" "How about: despair?"

Mass discard is a theme in my Yidris deck and it is my win condition. I wheel and refill my hand with things that can kill my opponents while they run out of resources. I do feel that it is not as impactful as mass land destruction because as you guys said people can still draw cards of the top and play them.

@aclevername7613

2 ай бұрын

Not as bad as mass land destruction by a solid degree but i will admit it does get me salty and does tend to sour games for me if I am fighting a hard core discard deck that strips my hand to nothing in short order.

@jihokim788

2 ай бұрын

@@aclevername7613 The deck doesn’t do the mass discard consistently. I need to draw narset or notion theif (I don’t run tutors) and a wheel card. There are other payoffs for wheeling like Tergrid and Orcish Bowmasters but that’s pretty much it.

@sriley4458

2 ай бұрын

mass discard is a lot more hit or miss because it will often help one opponent more than another which makes it a lot more easy to stomach in general as well as not being as debilitating for everyone at the table as MLD

@jihokim788

2 ай бұрын

@@sriley4458 True. My friend has a Kethis deck and my discard helped him fill his gy

Those who stigmatize the use of MLD and mass discard ironically end up exacerbating the longer play time issue. I've played games with MLD or mass discard that ended faster compared to situations where people have a lot of mana and cards but take far longer turns because of multiple value triggers, creature stalemates and the sheer volume of text to read at the table. When we remove counterplays against the "acceptable" strategies of ramping and drawing lots of cards, we should not wonder why some games start to feel the same.

@sriley4458

2 ай бұрын

I do agree that if something is used then counterplay for it should logically be fair game but I also understand wanting to not lengthen commander which is quite long already. I think of MLD when I think of long commander games so maybe just different experiences.

@mikotagayuna8494

2 ай бұрын

@@sriley4458 MLD belongs only to certain types of decks and few of these cards get printed while ramp and draw are universal to the format. The groupthink of ramp/draw = good, MLD= bad has more potential to bog down games now and in the foreseeable future.

Great video and very important topic! I would love a follow up on a good rule 0 talk to evaluate power levels and get the most fun out of games ((:

I grew up playing yugioh and recently got back into MTG. I can not explain the euphoria I felt of simply being able to play the game, and a slower paced game nonetheless. People actually care about others at their table. They care about their time and feelings. In Yugioh, there is 1 format only and its strictly 1v1, and on top of that, the power level of cards makes it so that if you don't go first, you don't get to play the game 75% of the time. At least in Magic, you get a few turns to do something. It also helps that the "room" in this community feels much more mature. I honestly believe that I have been playing the wrong game for decades and only now am I realizing it. Thank you for this experience!

Kudos to Jake and Josh. They are so valuable and good at their jobs and have creative minds. What an amazing job to have, and they do it so well. The editing is so crisp, and they’ve taught me some editing tricks passively. 🫡 to you 2

My favorite type of new player is the one that goes "why does everyone hate me?" when the 1st deck they build it Tinybones.

@asimovvomisa4040

2 ай бұрын

Started with Arena but after a year wanted to try actual cards with others. A co-worker was playing for years (and level 2 judge or sth) already and had a talk with him as i was thinking about buying and building a commander deck and my possible commander picks were: Najeela, the Blade-Blossom Him: Ok if you want to be prime target. Me: ? But that sounds like a very fair commander Him: (forgot what he said but basically "X Doubt") Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Him: ? You want to play Stax first ? Me: What is stax ? ... Me: Mhh maybe a single color ? How about Tergrid, God of Fright ? Him: Not ideal as people want to play their own stuff not watch you make them discard or sacrifice their stuff for you to use. Me: Hmm so i might be the enemy again ? Fine then i think i will play Karametra, God of Harvests with Angels ... (explaining that i want to play a ramp 5 cmc commander to play 7+ cmc angels) Him: That will definitely not make you the enemy from the get go at least. Have not yet had the time to actually play but his reaction to my new player questions about the game were sometimes quite funny. (going as far as laughing when he saw my face when i had a question and going "Ok give me your Magic Hot take for the day.")

@raffaelbelmonte2526

2 ай бұрын

Or Tergrid.

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

@@raffaelbelmonte2526why would you be mad at tergrid? When that deck makes you discard your hand there’s a highly likely good the game is gonna end the fiollowong turn, because they just got all your lands creatures.

I mean, I understand people disliking Drannith Magistrate-2 mana locks everyone out of their commanders-but I've never heard of a general norm against removing commanders. "I get to play a major threat, but you're not allowed to answer it"? Who thinks that? The whole format is built around the idea that your commander will get removed, and yet you'll still have access to it at a higher cost.

@mofomiko

2 ай бұрын

petty players, thats who. also beginners, who just dont have a good enough grasp of the game yet

our friend rules are, no land destroying, no sol ring destroying/taking, no infection deck, and no playing cards that are not legal in less than 3 formats if it's illegal in almost all formats especially commander we got to all say yes to it because more than likely there's a very good reason it is not ok lol. sorry we all want to have fun not come over to get dominated in turn 7. now one thing I have notice is our pre-con nights are the BEST nights, for some reason us all playing pre-cons gives us all the ability to be on equal grounds and it's just the luck of the draw/skill and it just makes the night a lot smoother and a better experience.

One thing im curious about how yall feel, is where do you stand on politicking?? I personally think some people use it too much to convince people we need to team up, so that player loses, but that player losing means the person saying it is planning on winning. They would proceed to get butt hurt if i decline the alliance.

@derekmacias9374

Ай бұрын

It depends. Ofc teaming against one player generally shouldn't be desirable in the table. The thing is that if someone has the reins of the board and the others are like teaming up and trying to hinder them builds up a nice narrative. Also strategically is an interesting position bc you have to manage your resources to help defeat the big bad while also trying to develop your game for afterwards.

Here's another fun land destruction combo for land destruction enjoyer : Natural Affinity + Elesh Norn

@mrj3711

2 ай бұрын

Spendy but, living plane- elish norn. Any way to turn lands into 1-1s or 2-2s

@smithxn

2 ай бұрын

Another funny one is elesh norn + kormus bell + urborg, bit weird to have urborg in what would be a mono-white deck, but it's a bit of a janky way to fully shut off your opponents.

@banaanuitdeboom4784

2 ай бұрын

my favorite is March of the Machines + Myr Landshaper. I even had a Standard deck for that back then!

The only house rules we have are simple, You scoop at sorcery speed and you mulligan to get a decent playable hands! In the end we just all want to have fun :D

@Cybertech134

2 ай бұрын

If you make people scoop at sorcery speed but don't ban extra turn spells, people should be scooping at instant speed.

@praisetherok3299

2 ай бұрын

@@Cybertech134I dont agree! We usually play with a regular pod and if we know some one is playing extra turn we just bring stronger deck with interaction to stop them from happening. Its all about finding the right balanced of everydeck and if the extra turn player goes off you let him as is fun and ask him to swap deck at the end of the game ! Everyone deserves is own little moments of joy and if you need extra turn or a torment to feel that dopamine spot go for it tiger no one will tell u what to play amd what not to

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

I don’t agree with sorcery speed scooping. If someone isn’t having fun, they can concede, whenever they want. It’s literally in the rules of magic lol.

@jakecarlson3709

2 ай бұрын

I think the problem with scooping at instant speed is the kingmaker component. If I am playing something like a realmbreaker and have two or three of your lands untapped on my side of the field, you scooping might immediately end my game as well if I need that mana. There have been several cases at my LGS when “that guy” who was in a bad position scooped to punish a theft deck for taking their stuff, resulting in an almost immediate elimination.

I love me my Chainer deck, don't have a Mind Slicer, so was never able to do this... My next deck idea: "Fastforward", accelerate the game as quickly as possible. The caveat, this includes all players. Group hug acceleration 😊

I think most of these rules boil down to “don’t completely shut off people’s ability to play the game / don’t monopolize other people’s time”. People play commander over competitive 60 card formats because they want a casual experience that allows them to explore the things they find fun about the game. Most people have a limited amount of time to play games, so when they do get the chance, they don’t want to be sitting around doing nothing. The best games of edh are when everyone had fun playing their decks, regardless of who wins.

@damiansanchez7968

2 ай бұрын

I couldn't agree more.

@mofomiko

2 ай бұрын

how people dont understand that they play, in fact, not only play against one opponent, but in fact three - wich equates three times the sacrificed time - is beyond me

@HomeCookinMTG

2 ай бұрын

I disagree with stopping your opponents from playing. locking your opponent out of all relevant game actions is a win condition. Yes, stax is oppressive, but the onus is on you to know when you’re beat as well. If the only game actions you can take are draw, play land, pass the game is over, stop trying to play it out and acting like it’s the stax player’a fault the game is still going.

@shogun452

2 ай бұрын

@@HomeCookinMTG The conversation isn’t about what’s valid as a win condition, it’s about the experience people expect at a casual edh night. If you want to play stax, you should make sure your playgroup is ok with it. I’m down for a stax game every so often, but most decks just aren’t prepared to handle cards like blood moon or stasis because of the social contracts discussed in the video, so if you want your friends to have a good time (which should be your goal) you should make sure everyone is on the same page. I’ll also add that there is an expectation from most groups that you be able to present a win, even if the table is mostly locked. There are lots of people that will play out a game until their life is at zero regardless of the board state. It’s never your opponent’s responsibility to scoop so you can win.

I use Armageddon and Ravages of War in my Kaalia. Because if I'm ahead and she sticks it can quickly end a game. While also if people keep removing her and I am spending 18 mana to cast kaalia it doubles as a way to make sure the rest of the table doesn't have fun either 😁

@Mcrypt117

2 ай бұрын

I feel like I should tell you that’s not quite the “take advantage” you need in that deck but gosh darn I respect you for it. Well played sir🫡

@mrj3711

2 ай бұрын

Yeah I got sick of all my schit getting destroyed or targeted in other ways, so I built a deck with a ton of board wipe and land destruction. I'll start clearing the board of everything if any of my schit gets targeted. If you leave me alone I play it chill.

@missivory_missraine

Ай бұрын

@mrj3711 You're playing kaalia. Your commander is LITERALLY "kill me or die cuz I cheat out stuff that's high cost eldrazis with anhilator" If you want a commander famous for being kill on sight due to the way she operates...maybe just move to a less infamous commander or build your deck to rely less on Kaalia.