I have to say that the 97% positive like to dislike ratio for this video is filling me with hope for Karate’s future. Thanks everyone!

@chasen47

5 жыл бұрын

I study Hung Gar but I watch your videos anyway, as the analytical tools seem to be applicable to any art, even if the actual techniques are different. Thank you so much for your work, whatever the style, martial artists must learn from one another.

@nw4357

5 жыл бұрын

Karate needs this type of breakdown and explanation. Too much confusion from one school to the next. Technique can vary but purpose and principle of technique should be the same in any given karate school for the given kata and it's not. Someone has to understand the kata.

@grayalun

5 жыл бұрын

I really like this description , I train ITF Taekwondo and we are always taught the same thing, it's pulling something towards. I've never done Karate but given their close connection I'm sure there's an equivalent technique to the Taekwondo hooking block which if you then pull their wrist towards you it's very similar to an arm drag in wrestling or jiu-jitsu great as you say for pulling them onto a strike.

@navigatingel6104

5 жыл бұрын

This fascinating stuff. Whats funny is that even though i was taught this i still also had the "chambering" your punch drilled into me at the same time. But in reality everybody fights with their hands ☝ Which brings me to another point. Have u heard about how the bareknuckle pugilism guard /kamae is likely the true way to protect urself...without gloves

@scarmethiusmaximo8735

5 жыл бұрын

I just jumped back in to training Karate and it's given me a deeper respect and hope for karate practitioners

I think this problem is with Japanese karate styles. In shorin ryu, we are taught to use hikite to pull the opponent. Most part of kata when applied, looks like wrestling techniques With striking mixed in it!. Thank you sensei, being true to karate❤❤❤🙏🙏🙏

@andresvallelisboa5511

5 жыл бұрын

When karate was taught in groups of hundreds of people a lot if things where missunderstood.

I have taken judo for many years and they, too, call it hikite. Pulling your opponent off balance to throw them. Same principle in karate. Pull your opponent off balance to strike them. Just makes sense. Good informative video.

@y200sub

5 жыл бұрын

johndejac73 Never taken judo so correct me if i am wrong, is it not called kuzushi? The act of unbalancing opponent before a throw/takedown?

@johndejac73

5 жыл бұрын

That is what it is called. You are correct.

@johndejac73

5 жыл бұрын

The act of taking someone off balance is called kuzushi. The hand that helps take them off balance is called hikite or pulling hand

@adamferguson3999

5 жыл бұрын

@@johndejac73 Thank you anon, this is good info!

Iain, if you haven't already done so, you should check out old footage of Joe Louis. You can find several example where he pulls the front guard hand down with his left hand to open up the way for the right cross. One of the tricks that made Joe Louis so dominant. It is a very powerful idea, hence why it is the first move of Heian Shodan - pull the guard down (gedan barai) followed by a punch. Rather crafty of the Okinawans to hide one of the most decisive moves at the very beginning of everybody's karate journey.

I was taught the power-generation explanation in the 80s - there's even a neat diagram of it in Nakayama's 'Dynamic Karate'. It wasn't until I actually read Funakoshi's 'Kyohan' (after owning it for a few years) that I learnt the pulling and twisting explanation - it made so much more sense and gave new life to pretty much every technique that used it. Great video - thank you.

@anti1training

4 жыл бұрын

@verifyyouare18or It's not as effective as people want to believe. There's a reason it's a general consensus, that boxing carries the most power in their punches. It's even science. Not broscience, like in the Karate explanation.

I’ve seen many people in martial arts classes that had never been in a real fight before. They have no basis upon which to doubt what their teacher tells them. Keep at it Sensei Abernathy.

Agree 100%. I came up in a dojo that repeated a lot of these incorrect notions and recently started really questioning a lot of what I was told. After finding Iain and others like him I've come to understand if you take kata and karate techniques and move them out of dueling range, as Iain puts it, and into the range an untrained person will engage you at kata make way, way more sense. Thanks Iain for working to correct so many misconceptions. I'm currently working on starting my own dojo and fully intend to get away from teaching the "P.E." watered down version of karate.

@davidmeehan4486

5 жыл бұрын

P.E.?

@MartialistKS

5 жыл бұрын

@@davidmeehan4486 "Physical Education"

@philipmoscatello3034

5 ай бұрын

What is P.E.?

Fantastic video! The amount of times I've had this conversation with Karate folks... Never ends well. Your a breath of fresh (and truthful.) Air in the Karate world.

Really cool revelation for me In kodokan judo and Brazilian we use the pulling hand in the same manner now this video really puts things into perspective for me!! 💯👍🏻

It's all about perception. The meaning of the move. So I practiced karate for 45 years with wrong mindset. Little bit unnerving.

Great work! Thank you for all the effort you put into researching and explaining.

39 years in karate and you broke my world but with absolute common sense. Thank you good Sir!

I love this video because it gives me more clarity in wording a problem I have had with karate for some years now (I quit a few years ago after training for 10 years, but I'm thinking to start again, and this time to give Shotokan a shot), which is specifically with the difference between kata and kumite, and how these affect a karate fighters skills. I support the ideas of kumite being essential for developing timing and the ability to read your opponent and such, and I get how some might be affected by kata into having a hand close to the hip during kumite, but this is about how kumite might affect kata...sort of. In the system I have trained, we use the regular, reverse, and secret (or "true") interpretations of the kata, meaning that one is the simple "what you see is what you get" interpretation, one is the "same stuff, but your opponent is reversed, so now blocks are sometimes armbars etc." interpretation, and the last one is the "mean" version, meant to really take people apart. I'm oversimplifying a bit here, but you get the point. Well, what I was wondering was, that because I also learned from the first day basically that the hikite is for pulling or somehow affecting your opponent, why is it that we spend almost ALL our time when working with kata only doing the regular, omote, interpretation, which almost never uses the hikite? It is, for the most part, basically kumite ideals. Block -> Strike -> Win In most of the kata, and also the single step forms (ippon kumite kata, for those who have them in their systems) all blocks are done on the inside of the opponents arm, and with full hikite, with no regard for closing off the opponent or breaking his stance or anything. You basically set yourself up in a 50/50 situation, where you are no better off than before almost. This was one of the things that made me quit karate to be honest. That we spent roughly 99% of all time dedicated to doing kata with an opponent, on doing the least effective, least tactical, least logical version imaginable of it. There is other stuff to it than the hikite of course, but somehow this video just really made me realize a super clear point about my style of karate, that I grew to be incredibly unsatisfied with. Because how is anyone ever supposed to be able to use any of the effective interpretations, if one only practice them maybe once every half year? It just made no sense to me anymore. But back to the kumite thing! Somehow this all just seemed to me to look so much like it was kumite, trying to be kata, because pulling, hooking, and armbars aren't allowed in kumite because they are "scary" or something, so we can't do them in kata either. If anyone else has also wondered about his, I'd love to hear what you have to say about it. (disclaimer: I trained in a system that slowly went from using contact sparring, with only light contact on the head but full on the body, and contact kata, where the attackers were to always attack with full intention to hit at full power, to using only point scoring and distances that go from skin touch to 5cm from the target as being okay. So long story short, I grew to dispise anything that takes away the functional martial aspects of martial arts, which might be fueling my ranting)

And as the hand returns to the hip it twists, creating joint lock on the attacker.

I was about to write a longer post on the intention of Hikite in a German MA forum but after changing my text a gazillion times, I started to search for someone who is able to explain it much better than I could ever do. Finally, I found it here (and in the second part). I couldn‘t agree more and there is absolutely nothing to add. Plus, it saved me a lot of work and time which I can now put into for training. Domo arigato gozaimashita! PS: Short comment on power generation: I recently discussed this with a professional athletics coach. It took us less than a minute to figure out that Hikite has nothing to do with that. Can’t be stated often enough ;)

@practicalkatabunkai

3 жыл бұрын

I'm pleased you like it!

In the early 1970s I remember one of the Japanese masters telling us on a grading that the hiki fist guarded a weak spot, NOT EVEN PLAUSIBLE THEN

Thanks for this! You'll never know how helpful it has been! I have trained in, and become a teacher of, various martial arts and at age 60 I have now been training for 54 years. I started Karate many years ago but moved away from it because of this very subject but for some reason I couldn't stop practicing my white belt basics. Even though I went on to develop "more practical" methods, and opened schools of other martial art systems (and have worn out more black belts than I care to remember), those simple Karate basics kept bugging me. Now, today, I will resume my Karate with a renewed enthusiasm. I'm not entirely sure how to go about this but hopefully those old basics will point me in the right direction. Many thanks again :)

this also explains why martial arts has this ridiculous mystical supernatural aura around it...like you can magically sense when someone is attacking you from behind so you spin around and block their kick and then dispatch of the hooligan with one tremendous punch to the solar plexus...and I love the "we don't know what the masters original intent was...so therefore we're pretty sure they meant for us to be able to beat up eight people at a time!" like omg! :D

I agree on this, and although at some point I would also say that somehow Hikite seems to be a "Reaction" to an "Intent" or "Technique" such as Chudan Tsuki or so forth. However as you said, Hikite is really useful for "Pulling" something to destroy your opponent's balance, form, and even add impact if while you pull, you hit the target at the same time (like to objects smashing each other). Also discussed this in my Video about "Karate Punch" ( Karate Punch: How can we perform or do it (Purpose) kzread.info/dash/bejne/qpuX18NwZNHfaKQ.html ) Thank you so much for discussing the purpose of Hikite. More power to you Sensei!!

I just discovered your channel and immediately suscribed. I discovered Karate when I was 3 years old and instantly fell in love with it, only to find myth peddlers calling themselves sensei. Your content is exactly what I was looking for and what Karate truly is, an everchanging, complex and fascinating set of combat knowledge passed on for generations. Technical knowledge, passion and clear communication. Keep up the good work! OSS!

Great to see Western karateka making karate their own. Nothing wrong with respecting tradition but we're doing karate a disservice if we don't make it our own. The Okinawans took it from the Chinese and moulded it to their own culture. The Japaanese took it from Okinawa and made it their own. People who are too purist are missing the point. As I say respect the tradition but don't be a Japanese clone. Better to be original than a tribute act. Thanks for sharing your substantial knowledge Iain.

When a closed fist returns to chamber, it has something in it.

@VTSifuSteve

4 жыл бұрын

This is also true in the old Chinese arts that Karate evolved from!

Great start to a new year. I hope we can look forward to more Nethy Rants. I was laughing along. (Like someone below said, it's infectious.)

Great analysis, thanks

You are partially right. Hikki-te implies that the hand (arm) is drawn back near the body. There are actually several ways of doing so and they serve different purposes. In order to pull an opponent (tsukamiyose) the entire arm and shoulder would be used out of the power of the legs and thorax and there are generally two types of this action, one is a sharp snatch to unbalance and disorient, the other is a larger scale pulling for repositioning including taking down. Another form of hike-te is executed more like a folding of the arm to the front/side (wakki) of the body and it's purpose is to set that side of the body for technique execution with the other limb. The principle is simple, one side of the body may execute a technique like a punch, the other side of the body supports that action by setting the structure better in order to carry the energy with fewer losses. A flapping arm does not contribute to that reality and, in fact, is an impediment to that action as it uses energy and impedes harmonious sequencing of the upper body. A boxer does the same when he does a right cross as an example, the left hand is held in place, elbow fairly near the front/side and at a level that offers both protection and potential counter use. I have been involved in classical karate since a young Marine, I have yet to find a technique to have a single bunkai and hikke-te is no different. Bunkai means disassemble and it is a concept rather than a single explanation. Explaining bunkai in terms of single use is flawed but explaining bunkai in terms of one use out of many possibilities is the karate reality.

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

I think you may have misunderstood what I was communicating in the video. Apologies if I was unclear. I did cover that hikite has many uses including location, clearing striking pathways, and postural disruption. There are obviously variations on all of those. The point of the video was that “power generation” through pulling an empty hand to the hip is not one of the uses of hikite. Pulling an empty hand to the hip does not add power (it’s not needed to set the body and can reduce power for the reasons stated in the video) and is tactically severely flawed. The hikite’s true use is therefore directly combative. Agree or not, I hope that clarifies the points I was making.

Hallelujah! I've been saying this for years and years! Gave up traditional martial arts for this reason as I was banging my head against the wall when I questioned senior martial artists! They were and still are very blinkered. Ian you were very lucky with the club you walked into! I've been studying martial arts for over 30 + years now, non traditional for the last 15ish years (I'm 52 now). One of my students left Karate after 4 years as he was disillusioned with the art, then stated he learnt more about fighting in 2 weeks (4 lessons basically) with me than he learnt doing Karate. And that is a real shame as it's a beautiful martial art if taught correctly.

Thanks for the kind words about the video. Time is short so I’ve not been able to watch the video in full … but in the MMA examples shown they are pulling the SAME hand back throw it forward. More space means more room to accelerate, which means more speed on impact, which means more power. There are tactical defensive considerations there, but “winding up” in the right situation is a good idea because it will increase power. I have no issue with that. It is indeed a calculated risk, but it can be very effective to “open up” one’s strikes in the right circumstances. The concern I am addressing in the video is people pulling the one hand back in the belief it will add power to the OTHER one. I believe that to be a complete myth based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the active role of hikite i.e locating, clearing a path, etc. When people tried to reinterpret the close-range methods of kata for long range consensual fighting, they came up with the false justification (not be to be confused with an explanation) of the empty hand on the hip as power generation. I’ve asked for people to show this in action and so far I have hand zero takers. It’s a myth that comes form 1960s karate books. I hope that helps clarify. All the best, Iain

Love it, been training in Wado Ryu for 40 odd years now, with WIKF under Suzuki Sensei, till he died, this explanation is how I will go forward and pass on as best I can to any I teach also your bunkai methods. Keep it up Sensei.

Thank you for clearing this up! This has helped me understand just how much close range grappling type moves there are in Kata. Pure Karate is Beautiful.

In Filipino Martial Arts as you're punching or palm, hand, elbow striking with your right hand you're seizing the thumb pad of your opponents right hand with your left hand and pulling his arm towards your body as you're striking him with your right hand. Angelo Dundee the famous boxing trainer of Muhammad Ali was quoted as saying to punch with your right hand PULL BACK WITH YOUR LEFT SHOULDER FOR EFFECTING A MORE POWERFUL PUNCH! Also, watch in slow motion Lenox Lewis knocking out Hasim Rahman with a wide inward moving sweeping overhand right hand boxing punch. If you notice as Lenox is punching with his right power side hand he is holding his left hand in a vertical fist position held close to his torso a little bit above his hip. I could have used a multiplicity of other boxers as an object example such as Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, and Manny Pacquiao. However, I used the technical punching of Lenox Lewis as an example as I thought you may have an emotional connection attachment to Lewis as you both seem to have an inherent cultural propensity to drive on the opposite side of the road.

Very nice video as always Ian.

Thank you for the pointing out that. It makes sense.

@bartomiejweglarz8069

4 жыл бұрын

I have to admit, I've tryed feew bunkai with my student. Remembering that hikite is a "pulling" arm... and it all make more sense now. No one never told me why to put that arm on hip. Thank you SENSEI it gives me a new way to get better. Hos

I always used to keep reminding myself that to truly understand your chosen art you must understand it`s limitations. However the longer I go on I am now more of the opinion that there are not so much limitations within the art, but in the understanding of the practitioner. This video absolutely verifies this for me. I am naturally a very skinny guy, so believe me I have to maximise every trick and technique to optimise my power generation. As for Hikite; I am reminded of a quote by Funakoshi that goes along the lines of.......... form in itself is worthless without an understanding of the application and meaning of the technique. In JKA karate we are constantly told of the importance of hikite from the get go, but not for the reasons stated here. It seems to be more of a "form" thing, or as a starting point in pre arranged sparring sequences. I still train in JKA and teach within that syllabus. BUT. I have to say that as I get older I find myself being drawn to a desire to appreciate more the actual purpose and meaning of basic technique as intended by Gichin Funakoshi. What you explain here ties in exactly with that. Many thanks Iain

Great word ! We’re always learning in karate aren’t we ? This is good.

The hikite movement makes a lot of sense to me now. Always wondered what practical use hikite has apart from lunging my zuki towards the tori or elbowing an attacker that comes from behind. It is a pulling technique...

This kind of ambiguity is the problem with karate. I'm a dan ranked shito Ryu practitioner so I'm speaking from experience. I love karate and it helped me tremendously but the problem isn't with karate as a martial art it's the way it's trained. Inefficient methodology and wasted time on bunkai, wrist locks that will not work against a resisting opponent. It took me training BJJ to realize this.

@rakshasajakir

5 жыл бұрын

I strongly agree.

@Sutho81

5 жыл бұрын

I totally disagree, if you go to a good karate school and have real karate training and have even practised in Japan, you will realise that bunkai is lethal and is the only thing that will save your life in a fight if you had to defend yourself. If bunkai is done correctly, you can break arms, ligaments, render unconscious and even kill. Perhaps you are just going to a bad karate school or you have never seen real karate to have this false and sad perception. It is also irresponsible to be saying something like this over a method that is tried and tested. I cannot see why you would even say this unless you have only learned basic bunkai for kyu grades and have possibly never seen real dan level bunkai at all.

@mr.philroussin1649

5 жыл бұрын

BJJ should have opened your eyes to how to use your karate in a functional way, not close them tighter. As far as Bunkai most of the instructors I've seen try to make up a scenario to fit a particular kata. It's the movement, not the technique. 20 plus years in BJJ has made my Karate much more enjoyable, easier to share and much more functional. Just don't get sucked into thinking the sporting aspects are all BJJ has to offer.

@southpawmoose

5 жыл бұрын

Then train your Karate the same way to train you're bjj, pressure test your technique. Wrist locks can work, I've used them as to end fights in high school and as a cop on the road. but you have to put it on quick, immediately after a diversion or like many throws or take downs in BJJ/Judo go one direction until you met resistance and then immediately reverse the lock.

@InGrindWeCrust2010

5 жыл бұрын

@@Sutho81 You're agreeing with him, mate. Hence, the way it's trained. How does it make sense to go through 5+ years of kyu grades and 30-odd Shito Ryu kata before learning applications or bunkai the "right" way? Or to need to go to Japan to learn it the "right" way? Why can't it be trained properly otherwise?

This makes way more sense than what I had originally thought. Another great video!

I do agree 100% with what said... What made this confusion is that Karate became a kind of sport not a martial art or what so called Karate Do which is taught in schools and universities.... When i see the way that they are teaching whats so called point fighting i get sick....

Me having a Taekwondo background the Tkd patterns are based on the shotokan katas so you mentioned about the hikite being used in katas and its used for pulling and twisting arms in Tkd we call the hikite a reaction arm so does the same thing apply for step sparring used in Tkd as theres techniques used in this which could apply to kata bunkai?

Sensei Abernethy - I appreciate your efforts to keep this art (karate) relevant. When you make videos like this, that fly in the face of established karate dogma, you may get some negative feedback. Disregard the negativity! I would like you to know that what you have introduced here is necessary and ultimately will serve to keep the art of karate from being shuffled into the dust bin. Ineffective, or misunderstood principles in karate teaching have been perpetuated for too long. I do not know if this is a consequence of trainers being ignorant, or if they are blatantly trying to conceal the effectiveness of the art. Maybe it's some of both. As untrained people seeking a self defense art become more discerning, ineffective techniques and training methods will drive off potential new members of karate dojos to places where the self defense applications are more practical and rewarding. Who wants to train for years to get to black belt, then be told that everything that you've learned up to this point has been nerfed... on purpose? You are moving karate in a positive direction with the establishment of effective guiding principles that make use of existing knowledge (kata), while giving karateka a new way to interpret the information. We simply have to change our minds about how things work. Thank you for being the slayer of many a sacred cow! Keep up the good work. I look forward to more of these excellent videos.

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words of support! Much appreciated!

@samueldickenson2062

5 жыл бұрын

Are there many people within the karate community being negative? I've never seen anything but support for Ian and his work!

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

@@samueldickenson2062 I do have my detractors :-) Which is how it should be too. Karate got into a mess because dogma and “appeals to authority”. We should critique and question everything. From there, the good stuff will grow in popularity and nonsense will be cut away. Happy to play my part in this and I’m pleased my stuff resonates with you and others.

Great explanation!! Thank you...

I just subscribed -I´m not a karateka, but rather a Wing Chun and Escrima guy, but I hauled my son to karate lessons for some six years, and watching him train, I always had the same questions about the rationale for the hip chamber. Your logic is impeccable. I just wish we had more people like you in the martial arts I practice, shaking up the all the misinterpretations that have become dogma in some circles. Great job! BTW sensei, do you always have so much energy or do you just drink a whole lot of coffee?

I moved across the US less than two years ago just before when the pandemic first hit and didn't get to practice in person more than once until this month. I was a bit unsure of this new group, but I'm finding they have things to learn from too and seem like decent people in general. I was especially pleased that another one of them is familiar with your videos! My previous teacher on the other side of the country recommended your channel a few years ago.

Thanks man! I wish I could see applicable karate rediscovered (or reinvented). I must admit I never read the Kata as close combat centered.

A good explaination, as always. I never even realised people thought that it generated power, I was always taught from white belt to imagine pulling on something when stepping forward delivering oi zuki / gyaku, the power comes from the core muscles, the arm just delivers that power to a point.

@BlueFang714

5 жыл бұрын

sjguk267 when hearing the idea of power and playing with it I understood why the misconception was there. A lot of power comes from circular motion and the pulling back of the hand assists in the upper body rotation. Problem is, this also becomes a crutch and you can't generate the same level of power without it because you never understood the mechanics of what was going on so you could discard the inefficient parts.

great video!!!

Amazing videos and content you put out ! I was wondering how the traditional weapons can relate to the practical empty handed bunkai you display in your videos.

Finally someone who understands the true meaning of Kara-Te. My Sensei was a disciple and Shichidan of Mas Oyama. Training with Robinson Sensei was eye opening every time I was on his mats. Sadly he passed in late 1999, and I miss him everyday, I only hope I can make him proud teaching what he taught me to my students the true meaning of Kara-Te

Found this extremely useful thanks Iain. I was always taught that it is “for power generation” and have done a class for my students this week explaining the true purpose and practicing it. Got great feedback and they were all open to change which is great. 😁🥋

Awesome, thanks for clarifying this! I completely agree that getting stuck in wrong ideas damage our martial arts.

Grand stuff Iain, keep it coming.

Great discussion! 1. I always heard from teachers that you pulled your hand back with as much power as possible to break the enemy grip on your wrist. As 8f the enemy always grabbed your wrist every second. So 50% of Karate was attacking, 50% freeing my wrist! I always wondered why my wrist was such an attractive target! 2. I took a mantis kungfu style and they pushed the pull (if that's possible) even farther. They practiced pulling as hard and fast as they could, even stepping back to add to the pull. They were always happy if they could jerk your arm hard enough to stun it just a bit and pull you onto your face. It was all about disrupting the BALANCE of the enemy. Even blocks, hammer fists and chops were turned into ways to trip the enemy sideways by adding the placement of your foot behind theirs and adjusting the move to be a bit more horizontal.

Why is it that we do not practice the grabbing action?(opening the hand and re closeing between punches) that would clarify this issue over night.

Ive be questioning this for years. Awsome. This makes so much more sense. Im starting to see that after years of training under people who dont know or teach the terminology, westerners like myself. Meaning is lost in translation or the lack there of. Thank you, Iain Abernethy.

The book “A Killing Art” by Alex Gillis also offers an explanation for how this hand on the hip myth got popularized.

@neocloudmarts9613

5 жыл бұрын

Which chapter or page?

@Spirittkdaus

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Neo. It’s in chapter 5, page 53.

The hikte seems to correspond with Wing Chun's Lap Sao. Works quite well, adds a nice whip lash as well.

@CarlosMendoza-mb3di

5 жыл бұрын

That's because they mean the same thing to pull hands.

@VTSifuSteve

4 жыл бұрын

True enough. Although Lap-da in our lineage doesn't pull back to the hip. It does typically pull downward or downward and across while never losing forward pressure. Even chain-punching has an element of this with the returning hand sinking and acting as a jut-sau, clearing the opponent's guard as it comes back to chamber. The result here is the same. The returning hand is always doing something. And as both Karate and Wing Chun share a common ancestry in Chinese martial arts (probably Fukien White Crane) we should expect to have this in common.

Very well explained! I just have a concern, not sure if makes any sense, but I remember long time ago someone once told that this position was to protect the ribs while punching, like a guard, is that wrong?

@adammills9715

5 жыл бұрын

I was told the same thing, but as far as I can tell the issue with that is that a typical mma/ boxing guard protects the ribs even better with the elbow and upper arm and has the added advantage of protecting the face with the hands at the ready kzread.info/dash/bejne/aqKbxtFmoZW9maQ.html No guards in kata :)

@stuarthazard3162

5 жыл бұрын

If you look at the body position in hikite, the ribs are usually MORE open. The best protection your ribs have in a natural posture is you upper are. In hikite, the upper arm is pulled back, away from the ribs. Some styles "chamber" with the fist on the ribs, others at the hip. Neither does much to cover the ribs. Watch boxers; when the cover for a body shot, they usually pull the forearm to the upper arm, pin their elbow to their hip, and try to move in the direction the punch is moving to absorb the shock.

@stuarthazard3162

5 жыл бұрын

Sorry, that was upper ARM.

@PaulGappyNorris

5 жыл бұрын

Wow! Yes, that is wrong. Too many teacher making stuff up because they don't really have an answer...

I've never done karate. I have no experience with karate. I've always thought how silly it was to keep the hands down, and that it must therefore be an ineffective art (comparatively). This video has changed my view on things. This is a fantastic move to train, particularly from a self defense perspective. Makes perfect sense. Thank you for giving me a new appreciation for karate!

I think there's just a big difference between tradition in the art and practicality. Pulling back to the hip looks tidier in line work and traditonal styles. What your doing I think is more street based and I can see is highly practical. I do love Kata for bar brawl type fights which I find has high application. There's a move in my Karate called Tetsu Komi Kami , one of my fav moves. In line work the hand is pulled back to the hip as opposed to the striking hand which in a hammer action hits the side of the face. In real life the pulling back hand I would use to cover the attack/arm and use this motion to spin them around, or pull them down hard whilst simultaneously hitting the side of the face. From here hair grab, and throws can be applied. Love your approach to things. Makes perfect sence. 👍

It's a mastery explanation. Wow, thank you.

Nice video. I’m left wondering “why train without something to pull on then?” If the principle is applied properly shouldn’t one practice by keeping the guard up, since that’s the truthful reaction to not having anything to pull?

@adammills9715

5 жыл бұрын

I would guess that it's just representation of the technique in solo form. Practicing with someone else is always ideal but when doing the motion on your own you have to recreate it as best you can I.e. pulling the enemy onto the shot. For example, in solo sprawl drills, there's nothing there to sprawl against because nobody's actually tackling you but you still recreate and drill the motion of sprawling

@MisterOpera

5 жыл бұрын

If you have energy for kata you can go make a friend. If nobody is around you don’t need martial arts

@adammills9715

5 жыл бұрын

@@MisterOpera haha I might have to write that down ;) I would say that practicing with someone else and then sparring live is almost always ideal. But solo drills that mimick and record combative movement can also have a place in training e.g. shadow boxing

@MisterOpera

5 жыл бұрын

Yes haha I do enjoy the shadowboxing kata. I have a theory that the hand weights aren’t misguided if you use them to train the pelvis and the stance in general. I think the information in this video is martial arts doing its highest calling. I see from this now that hand weights are helpful in boxing not for training the punch but because they disrupt the stance. A boxer can’t grab but they can still use this info as a reminder that you can disrupt the opponent’s stance

Excellent. Thank you 👊🏾

Thank you sir.... FINALLY!!!!

Nice treatment. I teach martial arts but I also teach massage therapy. Massage and budo are similar. The goal is to deliver impact to a receiving body. In massage the intention is therapeutic; in budo it is to cause damage. The physics are the same, though. In a bodywork setting, one moves a well-integrated body forward, through tissue, to achieve tissue stretch. There is pulling, to traction tissue, but that is a different effect. If the bodyworker is moving forward to stretch tissue, there is no point in moving part of you backwards. Again, nice treatment of the topic, Iain.

Brilliant. Thanks and well done

happy new year sir

I train Wado Ryu and I've had this misconception myself, whether through being taught it or trying to validate hiki-te myself. Do you think we (karateka) should still train using it in linework (e.g: Junzuki, Gyakuzuki) to help train the body to use it for its pulling and controlling purpose?

@practicalkatabunkai

3 жыл бұрын

I do! When solo-practicing a pulling action, we should pull. What is important is that the hand is always where it should be in BOTH partner work and solo work: Active is best, up when at rest, never empty and down.

Interesting! I didn't know this! I always assumed the arm being pulled back was simply a tool used to reinforce the correct body-mechanics when punching (e.g. turning the body to generate power as opposed to only using the arm).

I've agreed with this interpretation of Hiki-te for more than 40 years. In sparring I became pretty effective at what I called "jamming" and "trapping" depending on the technique. These were not taught in my school, so I probably learned from books I had in the 1970s. I recall one was J. Yimm Lee's Wing Chun Kung Fu. Another was a book on Chinese Kenpo, which I haven't been able to figure out today-- not Ed Parker's book, which I also had. Even in tournament competitions I found jamming often useful, and sometimes trapping. Perhaps I was only successful at them because no one else seemed to know what I was doing when closer (I was in Taekwondo tournaments). I bring this up here because these techniques would largely fall in Abernethy's category of "get limps out of the way". However, some of these techniques weren't exactly "Hiki-te", but more like pushing than pulling. I'll also bring up my fondness for what I thought of as 'simultaneous block-strike', which Abernethy clearly shows he well understands. I bring that up because it also wasn't on the curriculum.

love this video iain, im going to post it again on our facebook page. Thankyou for sharing this topic with us because you are quite right that it needs to be adressed, although some people may not agree with you the evidence is clear! Thanks again

I wanna train with you sir ;) Do you see any advantage between training the real karate that you are teaching vs doing Kravmaga, Jeetkunedo, Keysi, mma etc? ... that I have evolve from karate to :D

@practicalkatabunkai

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! The key is to find the martial art / approach that meets all your needs, and you find most enjoyable. This video covers that and explains why karat is the right one for me: kzread.info/dash/bejne/naeIyraac5vJZNY.html

This is the best explanation i have heard of Kata i don't know why people still don't get it and you are right self defense is not the same as facing off with a opponent one on one. in the street everything happens in seconds not jabs like a boxer. Slugs and take downs.

You're wrong! Sorry, had to do that. I was taught the "increases power" but when I started training. Didn't pass the smell test then either. We had a lot of good things in that first school, but a lot of bad as well. Keep putting out good content, there are lots of ears out there willing to give it a listen, even plenty of traditionalist.

Nice presentation! We in Taekwondo argue bitterly over whether it's better to pull to the hip or to the chest. Not sure whether or not Karate-ka has such issues, but, we have three main factions in TKD. In Kukkiwon(WTF) taekwondo, hands are chambered to the hip, and similarly, so does traditional ITF (sine-wave) - all chamber to hip. But modern ITF (no sine wave) tend to prefer to chamber at the chest. I've also seen Karate-ka pull to hip or chest as well. So are there different bunkai for each method? Would a style unilaterally adopt one means over the other, or could/should it be context-dependent? Or is it the case that some sort of pull half-way between chest and hip? I would think that pulling upwards (or horizontally toward you) should land the fist at the chest. But pulling down toward the hip seems troublesome, as it would require a great amount of strength to pull down to the hip rather than into the chest. My thinking has everything to do with angles: pulling a target (ex, arm/fist) toward you more or less takes the fist to a path directly to the chest; this allows the fist's final resting place to be more or less at armpit level. But if you were to pull the fist downward toward the hip, that means you are not only pulling toward you, but you're also pulling in a direction that requires a different (and weaker) set of muscles to lead the fist to a downward trajectory landing at the hips. On one hand, pulling to the chest seems to pull less distance than pulling down to the hips. But on the other hand, pulling toward the hips requires good muscle tone. Am I over-analyzing? Is it the case that that neither way is better?

@ZetaMagnus

2 жыл бұрын

Likely, situation and technique dependent; there is greater application in pulling to the chest as the backwards elbow created from this angle is significantly stronger, and makes the pulling hand part of a grappling technique as well as a striking technique, that being said, I would say that to effectively apply a standing armbar having the aggressor's arm at a diagonal from their shoulder joint to your hip would be most beneficial---Mukyu Tae-Kwon-Do, Shodan Isshin-Ryū Mukyu

I was told hand to the hip was for pulling the opponent while punching with the opposite arm in Shaolin Kung-Fu.

Great stuff!

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Peter!

Preach it, brother! I had a similar conversation over the weekend with some pretty famous karate fighting champions.

Also, it DOES work for generating power for a PENETRATING strike. I know that much because I have been hit by multiple types of punches, as well as having delivered some.

@PaulGappyNorris

5 жыл бұрын

NotOrdinaryInGames - no dude, it does little to add to power generation or penetration. Correct body alignment, understanding the principle of 'posting' and leading with the head are the basic keys to power generation. However, if your experiences make you believe so, good on you! Happy training.

I very much agree with you, I would however point out that in Thai boxing they do throw their hands down in an opposite direction when throwing a roundhouse kick (something that ironically enough is frowned upon in karate)

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

I do the same thing on my roundhouse kick (so it’s not frowned upon in all karate :-)). It’s different though because it’s encouraging counter-rotation i.e. of kicking with the left leg then the left arm moves back. This helps increase the whip and avoids excessive lean so the following hand strikes are faster. If we were trying to apply the “seesaw principal”, that advocates of hikite for power generation endorse, then it would the the right arm swinging down for the left kick. No one does that.

hiki-te is necessary during training to learn and improve the correct rotation of the torso and hips which as a matter of fact generates a massive amount of extra cynetic energy to be solely focused on a punch. During sparring hiki-te is obviously very useful also to grab and pull, no doubts about that. So I cannot agree with you 100%

@ehisey

5 жыл бұрын

Not neccesary, but helpful for teaching the mechanic. Much like the idea of punching from the terrible idea in application, very useful in teaching the basic mechanics of a good punch.

@RageYourSoul

5 жыл бұрын

@@scarred10 because boxers don't do it doesn't mean it is correct. For all I know boxing is not a martial art and only relevant till your physique and genetics can get you.

@PaulGappyNorris

5 жыл бұрын

You have every right to be wrong with your opinion...😂

@RageYourSoul

5 жыл бұрын

@@scarred10 If you want to go into specifics, Boxing uses gloves and as you said is a sport. There's a world of difference from Boxing to authentic Karate as it was intended. I agree with you if you refer to today's famous Karate, but to me that is not Karate and just a sport of tag. Actual Karate compete full contact without any gloves but practitioners are expected to have very high levels of control that comes with years of real training as otherwise they would injure each other to the point of death. Apart from this competition is a very minor part of actual Karate as there is much more to it than physical strength.

At white belt I learned bringing the hand to the hip was for power generation. As I advanced I learned grabbing techniques, and I learned to like them. I began adding them in places they weren't technically taught. By black belt I had re-learned everything I had already learned and every instance of placing the hand on the hip had become a pull. What do you think of teaching the pulling gradually? Should it be taught to white belts right away or held off on to keep from complicating things while they pick up the basics?

@AppliedShotokan

5 жыл бұрын

I teach this from day 1. Our pad work never includes hikite. Partner work uses hikite for trapping/pulling. I always educate students about the 'myths' that are out there. Why teach something that is wrong? Cheers.

@robwallace6787

5 жыл бұрын

What do you make of throwing both arms in a traditional tsuki punch, adding kinetic resistance that forces the hips to work more? Do you think it could also be a useful training tool for the hips?

Hi mate, thanks for posting this video, extremely interesting subject and very thought provoking. 👍😀👏 ........ As a JKA 3rd Dan who started training in 1972 I agree with almost everything you said, ... not everything but almost, LOL. You are spot on with the views on this in Bunkai, and during my time I have found that a lot of what we have been taught over the years is passed on with ignorance. It is only when in high grade that you learn to self evaluate. ....... In regards to Hikite as used in basics as apposed to used combat I agree with you totally but I have always related the practice of basics to being like the practicing of ones hand writing. We can learn to perform beautiful calligraphy for formal hand writing and develop control and discipline but it all goes out the window when you need to write a quick message or note while in a rush. But the more practiced you are in calligraphy the more neater your rough handwriting will be when under pressure, So that maybe something to consider. ...... I have always prided myself on good form when in basics so do I pull the fist to the hip during combat ?.. do I hell! ..The hands stay up and as you say, they are constantly moving. ....... I have junior grade student often come to me with concerns that their basic karate that they are learning doesn't work in real life, to which I reply "of course it doesn't work!, you have to 'Make' it work for you". This is where I encountered ignorance form teachers when I was young, the Japanese instructors spoke extremely poor English so could not explain and the English instructions were passing down that knowledge from the JKA instructors without understanding it. ...... Our basics is the centre line of the road or path we walk. We often veer off road on occasions for practical usage but it is following that centre line that keeps us all on the same road headed the same way. Stray too far from the path and you may not actually be doing Karate anymore but something else. ..... Worth a thought. 🤔

Brilliant explanation Iain. There is nothing more to be added.

I agree that pulling hand back to your hip in a fight would be tactically an error, but disagree about the power thing. What do you do when you throw a ball? or haymaker punch? Other hand goes back and shot putter or discus thrower uses his free hand to generate force. So you can generate force with your free hand, but is that relevant in a fight? I don't think so. We do not finish a fight with one punch. Haymaker punch is a tactical tool to get a reaction. Power comes from legs and trunk. Arms are weak. So why is arm pulled back in basic training? I don't know. Maybe it has to do with the form. Maybe it was just a tool to teach large groups?

@practicalkatabunkai

5 жыл бұрын

The arm is pulled back in solo practice because it is mimicking the same action in partner practice. It's "shadow fighting" that includes the gripping elements.

@BlueFang714

5 жыл бұрын

Pulling the arm back also helps in power generation but it's not the as of pulling the arm back it's the rotation of the shoulders. The arm simply helps you turn the shoulders but it's possible without using the arm at all. That motion though as you said, comes from the trunk. Using the arm that way is a crutch.

@stuarthazard3162

5 жыл бұрын

There’s a difference between “pulling” your hand back as you project the other forward and having your one hand wind up on the rear side when you project your whole other side forward. You mentioned throwing: watch analysis video of a major league pitcher sometime. Ain’t no “pulling back” going on there, but one hand does start behind and end up in front. But, as Iain pointed out, all pivoting is around the support leg, NOT the “center”.

@ApostleDan

5 жыл бұрын

When landing a blow you want as much weight going forward as possible. Your non-striking arm/shoulder will move backwards relative to the other side of your body as a natural effect of the body's rotation. However, ideally it won't be moving backwards relative to your target.

@MisterOpera

5 жыл бұрын

The arm use in the throwing sports you mentioned is not for power generation, it’s for balance. Without the arm, certain postural muscles will have to brace instead of being able to relax. That will cut your power by interfering with your motion. That’s not saying that the swinging arm contributes to power generation. It doesn’t. It’s going the wrong way to contribute to forward momentum. It’s not braced against anything. The total power available from rapidly accelerating it is negligible. However the extra power from the improved position and motion is not negligible. Everybody knows you can’t strike hard when off balance. Also worth noting that when you amputate one arm, an athlete can adapt to the new balance and generate a lot of power still. The loss of the arm is obviously not a good thing but it’s interesting that when a limb affects balance it may need to be moved not to gain advantage but rather to avoid disrupting the whole system. 1) we move things to gain advantage 2) we also move things to avoid interference So, just noticing that moving the other arm can result in more power isn’t really enough to establish that the laws of physics are lies.

Thank you for sharing a good explanation. I am not a practitioner of Karate or any martial arts except a few month of Judo and Ssirum(Korean Traditional standing Wrestling). I had heard of your explanation from my farther, black belt of Old day TKD and HKD, A veteran Korean army special force for 11 years and former colonel. In Off-guard is danger so it really must be a grapple or clinch situation. I have some theories that Wing Tsun Chuan is also for a super close situation that Nuki-Te-Like-finger-thrust or Shou-Tei-like-palm-strike are both grabbing clothe/gi and famous chain punches are punching with pulling clothe while grabbing it like a judo’s dirty trick which is punching in the chin while grabbing gi at close from a face. Pulling and punching, doing compact, wing tsun’s chain punch, doing wilder, Karate’s seiken-zuki.

Brilliant. Breaking the dogma. It took me about 3 years to break 30+ years worth of "power generation" hikite. Boxing helped a lot but more so understanding the truths contained within kata.

Great video going into the details of hikite. I agree that physically it does not actually increase power generation. I have to say that the action of hikite along with visualization of pulling an opponent definitely helps. I think it is all mental. For newer students, the action may help them think about getting their hips and shoulders around, thus improving their form and power. The idea that hikite is pulling an opponent should be taught from day 1 at any dojo.

Spot on!

Ok. Yes, it is not power generation. I AGREE. Ok. But, when I consider the mechanics of running, I find that the arms function as a pendulum to control balance and reduce rotation, like two rail tracks never crossing. In fact, to increase the power of a stride, we crank the arm backwards and forwards with the step. Done correctly, this will mitigate any hip pivoting around the center line with the arms, just like swimming arms never cross center. So, could the pulling arm help to mitigate rotational force dissipation and keep one forward moving into the target? I know what it does in other athletics.

@practicalkatabunkai

4 жыл бұрын

Running is different because the arm going back coincides with the leg on the same side coming forward. The “idea” of hikite is that the arm going back helps the arm on the opposite side come forward; so it’s different limbs in a different direction. While very different from hikite, the “running” arm motion can help with speedy rotation for kicks and fast transitions back in to punches … but that’s a topic for another video :-)

Awesome!

Good video, as always. One issue though regarding power generation: Straight punches from hikite develop more final speed than boxing style jabs. (More power). Have measured that repeatedly and for different skill levels using punch trackers (nice toy btw!). The difference are a few km/h max velocity. Hence one could argue that hikite serves to prep. the next punch. That said, I agree with you (and all boxers and full contact athletes for that matter) that hikite is not worth opening your guard unless it serves as disbalancing/trapping tool.

@PaulGappyNorris

5 жыл бұрын

Goju Ryu Bahrain - that may be true in your experience, but the 'conditions' to test this would have to be equally favorable between a good boxing 'jabber' and a good Karate straight-puncher. All of this is rather moot however, and 'measuring' on a machine is really just for fun as opposed to being of any relevant in a combative context. Happy training!

There is another side to this whole discussion. There is a theory, I’m not sure how well founded, that most of the empty hand techniques of karate are derived from weapons use. Now, if you do any bo practice, the hand holding the end of the bo not currently in use (striking) is going to end up on your hip a ton.

@R0nge

4 жыл бұрын

I think the word "most" is probably unrealistic but "some of the empty hand techniquess.." would certainly seem accurate. Not forgetting that there is a degree of cross-over (we are made up of one head, two arms and two legs and there are only so many ways to do things...)

Totally agree. I always tell my students that every move has a purpose, including hikite, and demonstrate a practical purpose. That never includes using hikite for power generation. Good video and good discussion, thanks Ian. Osu.

Nice video. I think that the meaning of hikite is included in the name itself, so this should not come as a surprise. As a practitioner of Chinese Martial Arts (which are obviously related to Karate), I would say that the hand to the hip in formal practice usually represents pulling too. However, it is also used sometimes in forms as a position for the inactive hand, or what might be interpreted as such, since forms/kata care to teach movements in a somewhat "stylish" way , but do not really explain the context in which the movements should be applied. This is to say that while a form might show a complete movement (i.e. punching + pulling, or gedan barai + pulling ), in application/reality we might need just the punch (or the block) because at that moment we can't really pull anything for any reason (in this case the "inactive hand" is used simply as protection). This is also imho the reason why forms/kata do not teach "guards", not because they are not useful at all, but because forms do not care about the actual context of the fight, just about the movements.

@MZH47

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing that. I've been interested in the connection between Chinese forms and kata for a while. Would you be able to point me to a source where I could start to learn how forms are meant to be interpreted?

@pernologos84

5 жыл бұрын

@@MZH47 I'm afraid it's not that easy. Though there is an obvious common element in how forms were created and interpreted throughout all Chinese martial styles (including Karate as a relative), there are always some keypoints which are style-related and are usually accessible only to the practitioners of the style itself. As far as karate kata are concerned, you can look for "bunkai", "bunkai oyo", John Burke, Iain himself, Jesse Enkamp, David Gimberline to name a few. With regard to Chinese styles, you may look for application of famous traditional forms of widely known styles such as Wing Chun, Hung gar, Taiji quan, Praying Mantis etc. I would also suggest to take a look at the book "The way of Kata" by Kris Wilder, though it is limited to Goju Ryu.

One hip is going forward and the other one is on place(point of torque) - truth! When you use hikite you work more with latissimus muscle and upper body muscles.And if you have both leg planted you use more muscles from hip down.So by engaging upper body muscles and lower you engage also core muscles (hara - connecting body parts in center of mass).It is like electricity travelling into center and out of the center.Bench press has pretty much the same tehnology! So when you punch you have better support and balance from mother earth and you can exert energy with more control and more focus(or power or whatever ;)).So from stand point of pure biomechanics that should be perfect way to use all body power(breath is tool to contract and expand -kime). Of course you can do it with lifting heel - it is just less balance if you cant produce sufficent power to get this other guy or girl fly away ;)..But fight is fight off course, it is not pretty and it is not seeking perfection.It is reacting the best you can, so using other arm for grabbing and blocking is good way to go ...And boxer punch is maybe not easier but is maybe more natural!I am pretty much shure that guys like Nakayama understod this perfectly!And what is crazy interesting that if you try to understand meridians you can get to conclusion that kung fu masters knew this long long time before western anatomy came to light! It is just basics and then free your self from it ,if situation needs it! My twooo short cents!

Maybe a good follow up would be a video about power generation, taking these ideas into consideration.

I believe that traditional karate has lot of physics and bio-mechanics in it. To me hikite helps in maintaining the stance which can gets disturbed if we do not pull back in opposite direction and that way it delivers a more forceful punch thru action - reaction principle while ensuring that other fist remains available for next alternative block or attack as the case may be.

I agree mostly, but what do you all think about these other possible purposes: Balance: Yeah, pulling weight in the other direction seems counterproductive. It feels good to me, but that might be habit. Boxers also pull the "inactive" hip and shoulder back a bit: kzread.info/dash/bejne/k3d1xah6ht2sXcY.html (I'm no boxing expert.) Maybe it has some advantages after all, maybe your balance is better. Don't some people pull their arms in the opposite direction when they do a roundhouse kick/mawashi geri? Of course you have to still keep the tactical disadvantages in mind. Pulling your whole arm backwards could be useful as an extreme illustration of this balance principle for training. Preparing a punch: I have seen fighters pull back their hands further when they chase down an opponent and throw multiple alternating punches - kind of like sanbon zuki. You are able to put more energy in a punch that travels more. This has normally two disadvantages: It takes more time and you are half unprotected. In the chasing situation the opponent is mentally occupied with reacting on your other arm during that time. Exercise/Exaggeration: This seems to be a Shotokan thing. We do exaggerated stances for exercise, maybe starting punches from the hip is an exaggeration for a punch that starts from a guard or wherever your hands might be in a self-defense situation. Of course the deep stances are highly controversial with other styles, and doing exaggerated punches might produce bad habits with no benefits. At least it's not unusual in other combat sports that there is a "clean" version of a technique for training that becomes a "dirty" version in application with resistance. If you start training a technique "dirty" without resistance, there might be nothing good left with resistance.

I have been practising Karate since 1976 if I have learnt anything it is to explore and examine your art it's great when people like yourself go out and encourage this exploration thank you Sensei it is a pleasure to listen to your words learning is a lifetime of trial and error

@practicalkatabunkai

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words of encoragement Edward!

This is great. I was always told in traditional training it was for power generation but it never made sense to punch someone and drop my guard, haha. Always love the videos, please keep it up sensei.