So basically Aston Martin exposed the FIA's own inconsistency.

@simonkevnorris

Жыл бұрын

Yes, so much for them being a professional organization.

@Tacos888

Жыл бұрын

again

@ytaltacc8008

Жыл бұрын

Alonso has being doing that since his come back in 2021 lol he doesnt even need to try anymore

@jasonarmstrong4551

Жыл бұрын

Bingo

@slaphands7703

Жыл бұрын

@@ytaltacc8008 Alonso isn’t a Jack man

George Russell within 6 hours. "George, you're holding up Lewis" "yeah, Alonso has a 5 second penalty, I can catch him", "negative, Alonso served his penalty", "ARHHHHHHH". "George, we need you to push, Alonso may get another 5 second penalty" "ok ok, 5 seconds close the gap", "sorry George, it was close, we're 0.115 off", "ARHHHH". "Ok, George, Alonso got a 10 second penalty, you got 3rd mate" "yes, yes, I don't think Fernando deserved the penalty, it's harsh, but I'll take the podium and trophy". George running around the paddock with the trophy..."George, the stewards reinstated Alonso's podium finish, they reviewed the incident and found Aston Martin did nothing wrong, you need to give back the trophy" "ARHHHHHHH".

@davidb6576

Жыл бұрын

This needs more upvotes. And a new meme - Frustrated Russell.

@heydude23001

Жыл бұрын

Now the Race needs a George Russell sympathy corner to replace the Bottas sympathy corner

@miguelmota5980

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, i feel sorry for George on this one. He was dicked around. But, so was Alonso. The FIA eh? 🙄

@luizansounds

Жыл бұрын

Dude is the new Nigel Mansell fr, the unluckiest guy i know by a mile

@DanielFenandes

Жыл бұрын

I’m dead

Honestly if they don’t announce an investigation they shouldn’t be able to award a penalty post-race. Imagine if any other sport had a governing body taking a goal away or changing the final score after a game ends and it illuminates the absurdity of how the FIA operates

@john1703

Жыл бұрын

The last race of 2021 springs to mind.

@chriscollins550

Жыл бұрын

They did announce it only to the team who then ask for a review straight away triggering a post race review. It's normal if a team chooses to ask for a review. It's out of fairness. If AM didn't and got a race penalty 30 seconds it could off been worse, but they forced a review tuned up with their evidence and got it over tuned. It wasn't shown to the public because how quickly AM ask for a post race review. What's the problem in that? It's the same review that should off overturned 2021.

@sinquup

Жыл бұрын

@@chriscollins550 They didn't announce it during the race, thereby giving the team no on-track opportunity to make up the time. That seems fundamentally wrong to me. Imagine a drawn soccer match where, at full time the ref says, 'I've changed my mind, that incident in the first half should have been a penalty, take it now.' It's scored, there's a winner and the losers have no opportunity to up their game to make up for it.

@chriscollins550

Жыл бұрын

@@sinquup no they didn't announce it to the live audience, they did to the team and the team directly ask for a post-race review and because of that the live audience who don't know the registration as well are confused and they didn't tell Alono maybe because they already had enough evidence to win in the post-race penalty review. This isn't football and if that did happen in football it might be more interesting. The fia informed the team that's all they have to do, the team did not inform the driver that's down to them they took a risk in post-race penalty review and won it there instead of putting it on the driver. Good idea of the team and clever. I don't see anything wrong with that.

@joelambert7128

Жыл бұрын

@@sinquup In a football match, play is supposed to be suspended if the referee believes someone has been fouled, so they can confer with the other officials to determine whether they were correct. In practise of course referees make errors from time to time, but the scenario you describe doesn't represent how the sport is supposed to function. Now ask yourself whether you want races suspended every time a penalty decision has to be made. I think if your answer is no, then you have to concede that the comparison you drew isn't really valid.

Alonso has always been one of my favourite drivers of all time. Speaks his mind, won’t ever be intimidated, can drive any type of racing car at a highly competitive level. I still hope he can get that elusive “triple crown” one day.

@miamarotta3738

Жыл бұрын

He definitely wasn't far off with the Indy 500. Hope he tries again!

@mandst5466

Жыл бұрын

@@miamarotta3738 I honestly think he would have won it first time out if his engine hadn’t blown 20 laps from the finish 🫣

I was sceptical about Fernandos move to Aston at first but they really are a perfect match. The blokes spent the last couple of years exposing dumb rule after dumb rule. And now even his new team are getting involved!

@shmazy86

Жыл бұрын

Well really Aston Martin has been exposing dumb rules since they were racing point too. So definitely a good match

@JStryker7

Жыл бұрын

@@shmazy86 was going to say that, but you already had it covered. They def have a history of it, but now they have the driver and a better name (more influence/power)

@sorakey4005

Жыл бұрын

true, both are sly fox that really good at playing with the gray area of the rule. i'm really looking forward to how they perform in the next few years.

@shmazy86

Жыл бұрын

@@sorakey4005 I love how Alonso is proving he hasn't lost a step. Looks like he is gunna be the source of most of our entertainment this year.

@stephensegal5187

Жыл бұрын

In Automobile Racing, exploring the darkest regions of the Grey area is HOW Champions are made.

I guess Max needs to start learning Spanish, so he ain’t all alone in the podium room next to Alo and Per all season.

@07_danishwistara29

Жыл бұрын

He probably is

@Marcoz588

Жыл бұрын

The Verstappen post race podcast will have to go duel language soon! 😆

@bokaandreevi9133

Жыл бұрын

😂😂

@BADNCKT

Жыл бұрын

​@@Marcoz588 You mean Bilingual is the correct term...lol 😂

@Sauceyjames

Жыл бұрын

In the cooldown room, Max puts his helmet in Alonso's seat, and then sits in Checo's chair in the middle... Leagues away from being a diva like Alonso.

Hiring Alonso to replace Vettel was an inspired decision! He brought excitement to F1 once again (since his titanic battles with Schumacher) and has singularly boosted Aston Martin's profile globally within one month!

@roberthak3695

Жыл бұрын

I watched the battles with Schumi too. I was one of the few fans of Alonso. Good times. I think Alonso will have success being a team principal in the future...

@TL-xw6fh

Жыл бұрын

@@roberthak3695 So am I!!! A long time fan of Alonso (and Senna and Schumi), and I have been to his museum in Oviedo.

@cvn6555

Жыл бұрын

Having excellent, fast cars has done just as much. AM has pretty much come out of nowhere to be near the top this season. Very refreshing to not have the same six cars from the same three teams take the top 5 spots every race.

@alexnicolaou3579

Жыл бұрын

Alonso got the car that Vettel was promised... i wish they would have been teammates this year in these cars. it would have made for an EPIC final season for Vettel.

This speaks very highly about aston martin, and not only they are quick on the track, but they are also quicker off the track too

@roberthak3695

Жыл бұрын

ruthless. a quality u need to have to win.

@pistonburner6448

Жыл бұрын

Except that one jack guy.

Alonso was class in this race. He just replied copy when informed about 5s penalty and man just posted 100th podium in social media when the penalty was still not removed. The sport needs Alonso.

@heidelbergaren5054

Жыл бұрын

He doesn’t post anything, there’s a team in the UK for that

@XTR_NEELAN

Жыл бұрын

@@heidelbergaren5054 man!

@TheKenji2221

Жыл бұрын

​@@heidelbergaren5054 Which makes me like Alonso even more. At least he has enough dignity to not waste time on asocial medias. Unlike everyone of us here....

@benjackson6260

Жыл бұрын

Just wait until a team makes it possible to lift the whole car with the front jack saying that they were only "positioning" the car and gets this rule re-changed again...

@sk0611

Жыл бұрын

@@heidelbergaren5054 Alonso is the type of guy who would have told his team to post it anyway just to piss of FIA

Sum up the video : The FIA don’t understand their own rules

@chesspiece81

Жыл бұрын

There are so many and they're so long that they don't know the exact wording and what can and should be enforced and how

@piBi-eu6sb

Жыл бұрын

well....no not exactly. this rule will be clarified before the next race. but the point in the video about "an understanding" of the rules is spot on. i watched it with friends and called it while he was in the pit box that was 100% a penalty, no one is allowed to touch the car. lets say the wheel gun guys put the gun on the wheel....they are not touching the car. a simple way to look at this is....getting ready to work is part of the work..... i like alonso but they got it right just wayyyyyyyyyyyy to late and then did a 180 because of a technicality.

@cidiracing7481

Жыл бұрын

No to sum up the video. Merc thought they caught out AM, waited till the last few laps to complain so Alonso can't get a 10 second lap and still lost out in the end because teams never fully agreed on the rear jack. For Australia the rule will be fully clarified.

@yp5387

Жыл бұрын

Yea. Because FIA is not a machine. It is made of bunch of folks and they might not know all the rules, and their interpretation. I am happy they all collectively agreed, and happy with the decision.

@jussayinmipeece1069

Жыл бұрын

@@piBi-eu6sb exactly. Its not that the rule was inappropriately applied. Its that in light of a proven inconsistency the FIA has decided to rescind the penalty in the interest of fair play. Given the ambiguity of the rue they can clarify that rule so as to prevent the same thing from happening again. The fact is that Aston Martin effed up and a smart lawyer bailed them out. Pretty savvy actually and I love it, but they were still wrong.

Here's a solution: normal pitstop, normal tyre and/or nose change. Then the green light is automatically delayed by 5 seconds (or more if another car is approaching) AFTER the stop. Instead of relying on team personnel with a stopwatch, just add in that minimum delay after all the work has stopped.

@nguyenthinh5594

Жыл бұрын

but the light is relied on team personnel, it's not a sensor or something you know...

@WhatHistoryShorts

Жыл бұрын

@@nguyenthinh5594 okay. When the lights would normally go green, add in an automated 5 second delay that triggers in the event of a penalty so they stay red with a manual override option to the spotter in case a car is coming. Point still stands.

@nguyenthinh5594

Жыл бұрын

@@WhatHistoryShorts the light is controlled by one of the team's personnel, so your thing will just move the responsibility from one to another. The spotter can still turn the light early and the driver can still jump the light. Personally I think just add time to the final result should be the easiest way without any human error. I know it feels like a loss of excitement when seeing someone crossed the line first but not winning the Grand Prix. But it is still thrilling to watch, like Lando and Lewis's race to 3rd a few years ago.

@nguyenthinh5594

Жыл бұрын

@@WhatHistoryShorts besides, the light is also for avoiding unsafe release, add 5 seconds without any other inputs will not be a good idea I think

@DMEGC

Жыл бұрын

@@nguyenthinh5594 you can add two different lights so although the responsibility stays with the team, it´s clear the car waited for 5 seconds. They stop working on the car and the first light (let´s say orange appears), 5 seconds pass, and then green light. That way is easy for anyone to measure that the car waited for 5 seconds. And the 5 seconds orange light before the green one can be programmed automatically, so esentially the mechanics do their job as usual.

What is the most revealing part of this is that on lap 48 Mercedes was communicating the penalty to Russel. How do they get the information before the stewards?? There is definitely a leak in the FIA going to Mercedes.

@Ltbookum

Жыл бұрын

Or Mercedes was the one that mentioned it/made the objection to the FIA.. That one's been bothering me as well, them mentioning it before the official notice is a big tell tale sign. Mercedes (Toto Wolf) trying to gain from a technicality like that isn't out of their wheelhouse obviously.

@Ltbookum

Жыл бұрын

@@codyfrance2537 It certainly hasn't stopped them from trying. Now that they can't get to RB (yet, just wait until they can get a little closer) AM is the first other team that get's in their way. It's those sneaky but blatantly obvious manners of Wolf that I find so repulsive.

@halofreak1990

Жыл бұрын

@@codyfrance2537 that 10-second penalty is the default punishment for a missed 5-second one. Though I've once heard the FIA state, in response to Max Verstappen stating he'd just pull a gap of ten seconds in such a case, that the FIA would simply up the penalty by another five seconds until it would be effective. Sometimes, I really feel the FIA are a bunch of jokers

All worth it for Fernando’s interviews and social posts 😂😂 Legend

@aeromtb2468

Жыл бұрын

his attitude during the interview was legend. the scary thing is that the car was doing good

@iraf.official

Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂😂

@purwantiallan5089

Жыл бұрын

@@iraf.official agree.

Death, taxes, and FIA not understanding their own rules

@christopheroconnor4665

Жыл бұрын

3 absolutes in this life

@FredFromBingo

Жыл бұрын

Ferrari fucking up their strategy is the 4th absolute

@lbco5229

Жыл бұрын

Too many idiotic rules in F1. Way too many.

@benjackson6260

Жыл бұрын

Just wait until a team makes it possible to lift the whole car with the front jack saying that they were only "positioning" the car and gets this rule re-changed again...

@Fred_the_1996

Жыл бұрын

​@@benjackson6260 how😂😂 i'd love to see that

I just want to see Alonso win a race this year.

@tubo85able

Жыл бұрын

Do you see how fast those RB are? Especially with DRS on.

@ivicaniko4812

Жыл бұрын

​@@tubo85able RB is really very fast, if Aston gains a bit of speed in the middle of the season, when RB has a penalty for further development of the car, maybe victory will happen, because RB has no right to a tunnel for further development, and surely Aston Martin will gain a little more speed. if Ferrari gains a little more speed, anything can happen there.

@benjamin7114

Жыл бұрын

If Max stays home yes.

@VLG105

Жыл бұрын

Hopefully Red bulls slightly dubious reliability will give Alonso a chance at some point

@quak6019

Жыл бұрын

@@tubo85able we just need another bottas in hungary moment

They could have avoided this mess by 1. realising that Alonso gained no advantage by the jack merely touching, and 2. giving the team a warning that they were close to receiving a second penalty for the jack touching the car. This way you build trust and you keep the rules intact

@AaronShenghao

Жыл бұрын

I argue that the rear jack touching does have a minute advantage where the jack won't shift the car's rear laterally if it's not lined up properly. Now the rules said "no works can be done to the car". And since unwritten understanding is "nothing except jacks can touch the car" It didn't specify "only the front jack" and other teams got away with it...

@wenxuan_4720

Жыл бұрын

​@@AaronShenghao I was so confused when I first heard you said that it gave him one minute of advantage😅 took me a few seconds there to realise its the other meaning of minute😂

@DMEGC

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, people complaining that AM get away from the penalty due to a technicality don´t acknowledge that the penalty was imposed on an irrelevant technicality.

@alexnicolaou3579

Жыл бұрын

@@AaronShenghao yep happens all the time in court. Lawyers present past cases of similar nature to show how a different suspect was found not guilty and that finding their client guilty would be the wrong decision. it's how most traffic tickets get challenged.

And that, Esteban, is how you handle a penalty 😅

If the FIA had made the call right at the time of the infraction, none of this would have been necessary and Alo would have pushed for some laps to open a 10s gap to George. But they left the warning for Lap 50... and then the penalty for after the ceremony. The FIA brought this "mess" upon themselves.

@uheigrok5288

Жыл бұрын

In so many sporting events, penalties cannot be applied after the event is concluded. Fast, decisive decisions are made by officials and expected by the participants! The exceptions are noncompliant equipment or doping.

@benjackson6260

Жыл бұрын

Just wait until a team makes it possible to lift the whole car with the front jack saying that they were only "positioning" the car and gets this rule re-changed again...

@gretschguy864

Жыл бұрын

They did make the correct call. Then they didn’t, then they did. Lawyers!

@chriscollins550

Жыл бұрын

They did make the right call at the right time. AM directly ask for a penalty review and that's triggered a post-race review and a chance for AM to bring their defense. That's always been a thing and it's a good idea

@yamatomushashi5583

Жыл бұрын

Is it okay if they (the stewards) just give the 10-second penalty at the start of the next race?

I'm a regulatory lawyer IRL and Aston Martin's successful review process was so satisfying to follow. I'm not even an Aston Martin fan, but game recognize game: that was some *clutch* good lawyering on their part. Great vid, too. Accurate and very well-explained.

This whole thing with the rules and the way they are interpreted reminds me of the 1994 Benetton traction control controversy. Willem Toet, a former Benetton engineer, said in an interview for Driver61 that they did have traction control in 1994 without breaking any rules. The rules stated that there could be no software that monitored what gear the gearbox was in, but Benetton found a way around that rule. Teams were allowed to limit the rate of acceleration of their engines to protect them. Formula 1 engines at the time were made of extremely light components and were so responsive that if a driver floored it in neutral, the engine would accelerate so quickly that the rev limiter would have no time to activate and the engine would explode, so they were given a way to prevent that. Also, they were allowed to measure the air pressure in the air intake because each circuit has different atmospheric conditions and they had to adjust the fueling system to get the best possible performance. But the thing is that in the first gear the pressure in the intake is the same or only marginally higher than the atmospheric pressure, and it increases with speed, so if the engine is, for example, at 15000 rpm and the pressure in the intake is 1011 mBar, the car is probably in the first gear. If the pressure is 1012 mBar and the engine is at 13000 rpm, the car might be in the third gear. So they could programme the car to know what gear it was in, and what revs the engine was doing, and they could limit the rate of acceleration of the engine in order to protect it. And you can probably see the rest... Benetton did have traction control in 1994 while doing nothing illegal, and when the accusations first emerged, they knew what they had, but obviously weren't going to say how they had done it because the other teams would then do the same. And that is how you trick the system in Formula 1...

These grid box penalties are getting annoying in the first place.

@simonkevnorris

Жыл бұрын

I presume the main reason for them is to ensure the sensors in the track are effective. It does not help that the vision from the cockpit is limited.

@jeppex4686

Жыл бұрын

It has something to do with certain grips/worn of the road afaik, so if someone is outside of the box it could be considered as unfair advantage

@tikytak21

Жыл бұрын

it's not that hard to line the car up

@ucantseemeverywell

Жыл бұрын

​@@tikytak21 surely you're speaking from experience? lol

@Frank-ed7hj

Жыл бұрын

along with the number of red flags, safety cars, and driver complaints over driving that in the past would have been considered exciting.

Anyone else get the feeling that it was Toto Wolf who instigated this?

@ShawnFX

Жыл бұрын

**Toto smiling devilishly😈**

@benjamin7114

Жыл бұрын

No ... just your obsession.

@AaronShenghao

Жыл бұрын

​@@benjamin7114Nope, both race control and remote operations already decided the penalty was served correctly. So someone must have complained to FIA to get it reviewed.

@0megalul309

Жыл бұрын

If it's on lap 49, it's defo toto wolff

@PJohann

Жыл бұрын

Zero doubts it was usual merc gamesmanship with last moment protest. Can't win on track and now can't even win off track.

Alonso teaching F1 about their rules again.

There needs to be rules FOR THE STEWARDS in place that driver penalties need to be given under a specific amount of time so this happens far less often and only for penalties needed to be given out for last lap infractions.

@RichHaynes2012

Жыл бұрын

Why are you blaming the stewards? They had zero involvement until remote operations (the FIA) said there's a problem on lap 50 (according to the video but there was radio commentary suggesting possible penalty before that). They then did their investigation pretty quickly once it was referred to them. They have zero blame in this because these "understandings" are made outside the rulebook yet the stewards are tasked with enforcing the rulebook. The fact these contradict each other isn't the stewards fault either. The stewards used common sense once these understandings were bought to their attention but its a joke these understandings exist in the first place as they are basically loopholes for the rulebook. They have decided they will update the rulebook now but why wasn't this done in the first place to prevent all this happening? Its a ridiculous situation that puts the stewards in an impossible position as they may not always have all the "rules".

@whiplash2891

Жыл бұрын

@@RichHaynes2012 The op's point still stands. If a driver messes up lap 19 but you take one hour and a half to inflict penalty when the race and even the ceremony is over it's no longer the driver's fault. It's your inefficiency.

@steventhomas5865

Жыл бұрын

There was an old rule that stated all penalties had to be issued within 25 minutes. My memory tells me there was an incident in the Shumaker days and the penalty was given after 31 minutes after and didn't count. Clearly that one disappeared at some point.

@czaczaczar

Жыл бұрын

@@RichHaynes2012 They're the ones implementing the rules by control & remote ops. All of them didn't do their jobs right. When Alonso's pit crew did the 5 second delay in the box, why didn't any of those officials said anything that the pit crew shouldn't have touched the car?

@whiplash2891

Жыл бұрын

@@steventhomas5865 thing is 25 minutes is still a joke. A lap around Jeddah was 1:30something 50 laps 75minutes total Taking a full third of the race to decide whether or not to give out a penalty is still nuts.

Why not just issue the penalty the way some other series do? At the end of the pit stop. All work had been done, jacks are dropped and an official stands in front of the car with a stopwatch to force the driver to observe the correct time penalty. Then you could do away with all the goofy detailed regulations here.

@Rob0100

Жыл бұрын

C'mon now, we're talking about the FIA here. You're making way too much sense😅

@bobs_sa8480

Жыл бұрын

Because then you’re relying on the FIA official to start his stopwatch *exactly* when the pit stop is done and then release the car after *exactly* 5 seconds. Teams will argue they might end up unfairly losing more time if that’s not in their control. And if the official accidentally starts the stopwatch fractionally early? You can’t then re-penalise the team for an incorrectly serves penalty when the FIA official was involved. No, it’s fine to leave it up to the team to serve its penalty correctly, and really this confusion is ridiculously easily avoided - the rule simply needs to change that no person or equipment may touch the car until the penalty has been served, save for the front jack for the purpose of guiding the car in the pitbox.

@wildewaffle9790

Жыл бұрын

@@bobs_sa8480 ok, automated system then where the timer starts when the cars wheels make contact with the ground. Nothing arbitrary there.

@bobs_sa8480

Жыл бұрын

@@wildewaffle9790 we’re over-engineering a solution; if the penalty is a time penalty, just add however much it is onto their race at the end, like it gets added if the penalty is incurred after a driver has completed all their pit stops🤷🏻‍♂️

@IvanVT27

Жыл бұрын

Shhhh dont say logic things, FIA needs their loosely writen rules and inconsistencies to meddle in race results.

I love the emphasis on "first" controversy of 2023. As in, we know more are to come lol

@ShawnFX

Жыл бұрын

Lol F1 wouldn't be F1 if there no drama😅

@amacca2085

Жыл бұрын

😂

@MaxyStorm3

Жыл бұрын

They need content for Drive to Survive

@fruitygranulizer540

Жыл бұрын

@@MaxyStorm3 to be fair, this whole thing was kinda dramatic/controversial. at least there's some actual content rather than netflix making up drama when there is none

@soisaidtogod4248

Жыл бұрын

@@MaxyStorm3 DTS is complete junk made for preteens.

This is so embarrassing to the sport…how many times have we seen similar issues in the last few years.

The question is, why did the remote centre mysteriously change their mind an hour later, and who or which team had an input into that decision. Who stood to benefit from an Alonso penalty.

@maisysworld5855

Жыл бұрын

Probably merc

@maisysworld5855

Жыл бұрын

I can see Toto rn

@jerichopraba6185

Жыл бұрын

Toto's email just came in

@serbero9

Жыл бұрын

And they didn't even need to make an official complaint, isn't it funny?

@FredFurburguer

Жыл бұрын

Nothing wrong about this. If they find it against the rules, the Fia itself should have ignored the request to review the pit stop. It's the Fia fault for having such messy rules, not the teams for trying to take advantage.

FIA: hey you can't have that, 10s penalty AM: wait, wh- FIA: *takes the trophy* ... AM: hey, you can't have that, 7 previous accidents with no penalties given FIA: wait, wh- AM: *takes the trophy back*

@aarontitan8393

Жыл бұрын

and yet they told us such things couldn't happen once a race was done.

@Palmit_

Жыл бұрын

*incidents. not accidents

Dam Aston had Harvey Specter on this case. Good for them!!

@davidb6576

Жыл бұрын

Better still, they had Harvey Birdman!

Very clever from Aston Martin. These penalties are almost never overturned, but they were there with the evidence quickly enough to get their podium back.

The real question is why it was reviewed again as the end of the race approached. Can’t help but think there was influence by the team that was poised to gain the final podium spot. I thought *ALL* rules policing was to be done by the track stewards and FIA without input from the teams unless input is specifically requested??

Evidence was not available at the time of decision and then teams sending the data to teach them their own rule is something feels so absurd. Alonso boy rightfully re-instatted, he could have pushed 10+ secs if he had know earlier.

@rerikm

Жыл бұрын

the rule is fine but the team decided to exploit the semantics to gain an advantage. It took long time because the team was doing due diligence to contest the descision. legal but sneaky imo

@diklongley01

Жыл бұрын

I'm in awe that the Aston Martin team raked through past instances of penalty/pit-stop 'infractions' in time to present the stewards a contrary argument within such a short timeframe. Their GP video library must be something to behold!

@4matic81

Жыл бұрын

@@diklongley01 Actually Mercedes gave them the headstart, by highliting to russel on the radio, "Their could be possible penality coming to Alonso". That gave them the headstart on the video hunt :D.

@w201w124

Жыл бұрын

@@4matic81 Mercedes probably were the ones pushing for the penalty in the first place behind the scenes.

@Kaimax61

Жыл бұрын

@@w201w124 yeah, even the commentators were confused, as it wasn't a notice or investigation that was on their displays. Unless other team radios came out saying alonso's possible penalty, I highly suspect it was because of Merc reporting it for a review.

You guys have it spot on. Just put it in black and white. No “understandings” or “agreements”. How flipping hard is it? Blows my mind how things like this are still a thing.

@mareewalker1096

Жыл бұрын

It's like politics they make rules that can be twisted!

@mrpoopoo888

Жыл бұрын

The FIA formula 1 sporting regulations is "only" 112 pages long... leaving a lot of room for intepretation.

@mvh996

Жыл бұрын

it might now seem very obvious for us. but until an incident like this happens its difficult to foresee every kind of situation where the rule enforcement might become difficult wrt the incident at hand.

@martinusv7433

Жыл бұрын

​@@mvh996 Yet it still shouldn't really be that difficult to realize in advance that the phrase "working on a car" would be significantly more ambigous than the phrase "touching a car". Smh.

@mvh996

Жыл бұрын

@@martinusv7433 why wud anybody just touch a car? unless u can imagine that it means touching some equipment to the car it kinda is not obvious. i dont think the ppl who word these rules are ppl who have worked in f1 garages, so one cud argue its not something that might have occurred to them.

It's amazing Aston Martin got 7 instances of similar execution in a matter of minutes... I wonder if they had everything catalogued like "serving penalties while pitting" footage .

@roberthak3695

Жыл бұрын

All teams have ppl that work remotely at the respective factories. They all obviously study their own races and the races of other teams so its not hard, with the superfast computers they must have to cut a few video segments or at least to reference them.

@HolyWarrior1

Жыл бұрын

I think they had a penalty plan of what goes where… they anticipated this specific penalty because they planned to place the Jack. That defense was written weeks ago.

It's weird that it's entirely possible to have the remote stewards rule that the penalty was served correctly, effectively closing the case and then having a change of mind 30 laps later. That alone should NEVER happen.

Probably toto send an email to show the car was touched.

@johncitizen306

Жыл бұрын

He has diagrams

I remember the FIA promising to clarify the rulebook after AbuDhabi 2021. Work must be slow over there. It’s only been a 16 months or so…

Just what the FIA needs right now… More vaguely decisions sort of not really put out there, just so that they have to turn it around completely in the end. Even when 2 out of 3 immediately were outspoken about it. They couldn’t resist to mess up major. I’m glad that Aston Martin are this strong and accurate to actually fight these type of decisions successfully and Fernando Alonso gets what he deserves by his 100th podium in his F1 career.

I think it would be great if the FIA made an addition to the rule that states “Touching the car with a clear advantage on performing the pit stop” or something because even on tv you could clearly see that when he accidentally touched the rear there was absolutely no advantage whatsoever

@earthb67

Жыл бұрын

That's still too subjective. 'clear advantage' would be argued. Saying no person or object, save the front jack, (but that's debatable in itself IMO), shall touch the car is very clear and objective.

@Thermalions

Жыл бұрын

@@earthb67 Indeed. The Race's suggested wording has it's own problems. Is it interpreted as: No object or person may touch the car, save for the front jack to allow positioning into the pit box. or No object or person may touch the car save for the front jack, to allow positioning into the pit box. How does one define positioning into the pit box? In order to work on the car the vehicle needs to be positioned by lifting it up on a jack. So is lifting it on the jack positioning or working?

@earthb67

Жыл бұрын

@@Thermalions Agreed. It's really not that hard to use non-ambiguous language in a legal document. I have worked in companies where you would have your horoscope read to you if you drafted documents like that, and I am not a legal person at all!

@DMEGC

Жыл бұрын

whenever you put anything that is subjective you are asking for problems. What constitutes a clear advantage? It would be easier to make the rule so that the penalty can be served right after the pit stop, so the car waits for 5 seconds after the mechanics stop working. You add an orange light for 5 seconds before turning it green. Everyone on the team, including the one responsible to control the red/green light do their job as usual, but you have program a 5 second delay with orange light between the red and the green.

@pianissimo7121

Жыл бұрын

​@@DMEGC i agree i always wondered why they never did that in the 1st place. With what you said, the timer can start when everyone has stopped touching and there can be no excuses

If it takes longer than 15mins to give a penalty then clearly everything ok

@rerikm

Жыл бұрын

the rule is fine but the team decided to exploit the semantics to gain an advantage. It took long time because the team was doing due diligence to contest the descision. legal but sneaky imo

As a lawyer, I'm not at all suprised as it happens all the time in the law. Many pieces of legislations can be expanded by "regulations", which may include finer details not originally contained in the legislation. These can also somertimes be accompanied by an "explanationary memorandum" explaining what the law means or why it was made. Sometimes, regulatory bodies also issue official "guidances notes" on how they interpret and apply the law. All of these can be supplemented by "case law", which is not dissimilar to Astin Martin's legal argument, that previous instances of the front jack being used were ruled OK by the FIA. To add to even more confusion, sometimes you also have to go into the written records of when laws were debated by the legislature/congress, or past draft versions, to decipher exactly what is going on. So to sum it all up, to a lawyer, now of this is the least bit suprising!

The initial grid position penalties for both Ocon and Alonso are wrong. The decision documents refer to Article 48.1 c) and say the car was "outside of" the grid box (clearly visible that it's positioned to the left). When you look up Article 48.1 c) it only refers to being "in front of" the grid box, no mention of lateral position.

I'm glad he got his podium back because he earned it. The FIA still needs work of course but hopefully this will help smooth things out. That said the penalties are way to harsh imo

masi wasn't the problem all along

@TonySopeano46

Жыл бұрын

It starts with T and ends with oto Wolff.

@diemes5463

Жыл бұрын

just part of it

@mvh996

Жыл бұрын

no masi was only the scapegoat.

@martinusv7433

Жыл бұрын

​@@TonySopeano46 That's a very long ending 😂😂

@cyan_oxy6734

Жыл бұрын

Without wanting to start the gang war again it's clear that Masi broke the rules in 2021 without any real justifiable reason. He just crumbled under pressure and expectation and made a real fuck up without much ambiguity. Of course nothing of this is RB or Max' fault and it doesn't make him any less of a double champion but it is what it is.

Left unexplained was why the second penalty was administered so late (denying Alonso the chance to react to it).

@grumpy9478

Жыл бұрын

the chairs in Geneva are very comfortable.

damn, props to aston for being able to provide evidence so quickly. Maybe they really are up to becoming a frontrunner

Ah, thank you, makes perfect sense - it also underlines why it's important to get rules written by lawyers who work on the assumption of "the word of the law" and who are experienced with making sure the wording is as required for the intended ruling.

I dont think any of this matters, if the FIA cant recognize that there was a penalty until 30 fucking laps later and AFTER the race then they shouldnt be giving the penalty at all. They would have raced differently if they received the penalty when they were supposed too .

The FIA is jacked up 😉

"I'm pushing like a mad man" - Russell ***Goes from 4.8 to 5.1 secs***

Reminds me of when my nephew was 5 and his mother told him to stop talking, so he started humming. Putting a jack on a car is working on it. Putting the key in the ignition to go to the cafe is called driving.

From Gödel's "Incompleteness Theorem", it is impossible to construct a rule set that covers all possible cases.

@grumpy9478

Жыл бұрын

that's Godel for ya ... always belaboring the obvious.

@JMurph2015

Жыл бұрын

That's not what the theorem says but sure... The theorem states that there is no choice of axioms that will give you both a complete and consistent theory of logic. Either some true things will remain unprovable or some statements will contradict each other. It does not state that you couldn't fully enumerate to the letter an F1 rulebook.

In some sports they have a rule that if there's a potential penalty/team want to challenge to review of a play, it only can be done in limited times after the incident. So if there's no request for a review in that limited period, they can't change the decision. I think f1 should have this rule too, for in race incident only.

I feel like there should be a statute of limitations-like system in place for these sorts of rules. If a rule violation was so minor it took that long to even notice it had happened, then it shouldn't be applied

It could also be easily solved by making them serve the penalty at the end of the stop rather than the beginning

And everybody knows that its Toto wolf that was behind this whole thing

@EchoMirage72

Жыл бұрын

ahh ... Here is the obligatory Mercedes conspiricist.

@simonkevnorris

Жыл бұрын

I think the fact that they told Russell in the race towards the end that Alonso may be facing a penalty. This is not the time that they were trying to get him to let Lewis passed.

@vincecarlo

Жыл бұрын

Merc Whines n FIA Complies PATHETIC

@TheProkonover

Жыл бұрын

@@EchoMirage72 Just go and read FIA documents about the penalty. They state that Race Director reviewed the pit stop right after it happened and gave it the "All OK". Then on the *last lap* of the race, Race Director sent a report to stewards asking for an investigation. George's Race Engineer was oddly confident of Alonso getting a penalty with 10 laps to go. How the fuck did they know about the penalty waaaay before an investigation was even open or demanded? Easy: they demanded it. They are the ones who went through unnoficial channels asking for an investigation. And they did it so Alonso was not able to defend himself on track. He had pace enough to open a 10s gap.

Great explanation, thank you for the video. While I'm a Schumi fan forever I love the sport and respect all the great champions. I'm loving to see Alonso in a competitive car and with his great talent and racing spirit for him to once again be one of the most exciting drivers on the grid again is awesome!

@ilduce4721

Жыл бұрын

It's not a great explaination at all. They make all these animations but forget to mention why the pitstop was reviewed again at the end of the race... because of a Mercedes complaint

So basically a) the teams can definitely exert quite a bit of influence on the stewards/race control/etc, and b) the teams seems to know more about the rules than the FIA about their own rules.

Great breakdown on the timeline. Good work.

The fact that Aston Martin had video evidence and paperwork ready to go suggests to me that when they explore grey areas they record others doing the same thing and gather evidence just in case. With Fernando's passion for the sport, I'm amazed he was so calm in post-race interviews unless, of course, he had a good idea it would be overturned...surely not. 🤗

@tego999

Жыл бұрын

Why would Aston Martin be "ready" to merely touch the car with intention? To gain what advantage?

Be honest, how far were you in recording the video explaining why Alonso got a penalty before you heard the news about it being revoked? 😇😁

The stewards manipulated the race when they activated the safety car when there were no obstacles on track warranting such measure, and they then had the gall to say they did not have a camera showing that Lance's car was outside the track, while at the television at home all could see it was.

FIA rule enforcement is a sham. The ghost of losing his 8th Championship title due to trivial interpretation between "any" and "all" still haunts Hamilton to this day

Aston’s legal counsel earning their retainer!!!

@mvh996

Жыл бұрын

well they did one hell of a job.

@MrJoel9679

Жыл бұрын

@@mvh996 they are the fourth winners of third place.

I'd love to know how touching the car counts as work. If I trip and touch the car to catch myself during a penalty, does that count as work? It seems like the rule is there to rightly prevent tire changes, aero adjustments, etc. Simply touching the car doesn't affect that in any way in my opinion. The jack brushing the rear of the car gave no advantages to Aston Martin. Ocon's penalty was correct because they actually did start working on the car by adjusting something.

@ventouxR

Жыл бұрын

Advantage on reaction time. On standard pit-stop time, you have around one second between car stop and touching the car (front jack vs. rear jack). In this situation pit stop time starts with both jacks ready.

@AaronShenghao

Жыл бұрын

I think it's to prevent sneaky knobs turning, cleaning of bits, etc. And most importantly, lining up the wheel guns and screw drivers (adjust wings). So they put it in broad terms "no work can be done". They didn't say jacks can't touch the car as explained in the video.

As a law student (in Sweden) I can say that it's not that uncommon that written rules have to be interpreted in some way. That's why we have case law, explanatory notes and other sources that you can use to understand rules. Wording is never specific enough. So no, I don't think lawyers are shivering.

It's good to see Aston Martin breaking into the front runners. I had hoped they would be there when it first came on the scene after the pink Mercedes. Not a fan of Alonso but I am glad this was sorted out and he got his 100th podium. Seems like he will be spending the final years of his career in an actually competitive car (well, competing for 3rd most likely), fingers crossed it stays that way. RB are going to walk this championship and are every bit as dominant in season as Mercedes were 3 years ago. Can't see anyone touching them until the next major rule change unless someone has a real stroke of genius. The pace difference the RBs have on the straights is ridiculous, DRS is a push to overtake button and there were many times Verstappen got a worse drive out of the last corner before the straight but breezed by no problem at all. All this without sacrificing any downforce in the corners.

Ngl though, I was pretty damn amazed at how well Aston is performing. Seriously, well done to them, they've really up'd their game this season, lets hope it lasts, would be awesome seeing a 4 way fight for the championship (provided Mercedes and Ferrari can up their game)

I'm just glad he got his podium finish back! That was painful to watch unfold after the post-race award ceremony had already concluded!

I'm glad the team was able to get the evidence together so quickly. I would have hated for Alonzo to lose that position

On your suggested wording: it should includes wether or not the front jack is allowed to lift the car. Because technically lifting is just touching hard enough ... So either "for positioning only" or mentioning that the car front should not be lifted during the penalty

Love this one! F1 has a big problem with it's rules, it has annoyed me many times.

How did AM find seven front jack videos so rapidly!?

@thisissanjay3935

Жыл бұрын

Even I am shocked lol 😂

@grumpy9478

Жыл бұрын

200 new hires in the off-season.

@tsubakisan1147

Жыл бұрын

How did AM find seven front jack videos so rapidly!? From their staff researching in the off season, to cover eventualities such as the FIA making dumb decisions re any one of the rules.

The massive delay is what pissed me off. You shouldn't let the whole race go by and they start changing things after the race is done.

We all heard Mercedes comms regarding looking for a penalty-based way to bump Russell onto the podium during that last few laps of that race.

This was great news. No matter how much I want Mercedes to comeback and get great positions in the top I really want Alonso to do great this season. Most indicates he will have a strong season this year based on the two races but much will probably happen when team brings new upgrades and such. I think Mercedes will close in on Aston Martin after some upgrades. But seeing Alonso fighting for second place in drivers standings will be awesome and if Aston Martin can stay consistent his chances for third place in driver's championship looks very good. But again if Aston Martin can find a little more straight line speed then fighting for the second place is very possible. It seems it's the only big thing they are lacking at the moment. Anyway FIA screwing up or whatever already after only two races...I mean this don't feel "right". It's 20 races to go so there are plenty of opportunities for them to screw up. It gets harder every season to respect the FIA. At some occasions it feels like it's just a game for them with their weird decisions.

@sanjayoak4416

Жыл бұрын

Second place for Alonso in driver's standings will be great at the end of the season but given the pace of RB19 & Checo so good at managing the tyres- at present looks a bit difficult as Stroll had an engine problem that needs to be taken care of.

@spaceli0n

Жыл бұрын

merc are nothing but snakes, they protested this.

@sebulbathx

Жыл бұрын

@@sanjayoak4416 Yeah true. The pace in RBs car should make Checo second with relative ease but seeing recently or historically that Alonso tend to be able to over perform with his cars it's very possible for him to get second place in drivers championship. Assuming the car don't break on him. But anyway if Mercedes can get a few tenths more in their car the fight for second place will be very interesting. 👍 I think F1 us really fun to watch at the moment if I exclude the fight for first place which is Verstappen.

The I in FIA stands for Incompetent.

@jkliao6486

Жыл бұрын

Bro, I don't want to watch incompetent automobile races :)

@ChrispyNut

Жыл бұрын

Excuse me, but that should be "incompétence", they are French! EDIT: Actually "incompétent" or "incompétente".

Good job guys for knocking this video out so quickly!

You can interpret the rule in different ways, you can also say that the jack was not even touching but in position, or that the rule is just dumb and not properly written, you could argue that the rule was not even applied same way to other teams before (regarding the jacks). But stewards cannot notify a penalty 35 laps after the incident, with 5 laps to go. That is insane and it makes the penalty way bigger than what is intended to be. Even Russel admitted it.

This is going to be a very entertaining season

On your suggestion "No object or person may touch the car save for the front jack to allow for car positioning into the pit box"... I'd design a car that takes a jack in the shape, form and function of a front jack on both the front and rear and I'd argue that I'm using the front jack on the rear of the car. Take that.

"...some rules are enforced by understandings and agreements. If we have any viewers out there who work in law, you're probably shuddering at that thought." Got a good chuckle out of any lawyers watching.

Almost like the rule book isn't written by lawyers at all....

3:37 FIA: "We admit we haven't officiated properly all these years."

Suggestion for one simple rule that FIA should change. Given prices at podium is final. They had some 30 laps to decide if Alonso took hes penatly correctly or not

As for the narrator's proposed rule change at the end of the video: I can agree to that, with the proviso that the jack is withdrawn when the car is positioned and only then does the time for the penalty begin.

FIA will practice their mental gymnastics trying to explain this and pretending they’re not responsible

Do teams have Legal Counsel present at every race in case of instances like this or did Aston Martin contact their legal department and they transferred evidence over for the team to present at the appeal?

@FaceFish9

Жыл бұрын

fairly sure they have a personel that looks into these things and then tells the legal department elsewhere as to have these things go really smoothly

@ChrispyNut

Жыл бұрын

Probably remote, whether "at the factory" or just "on call". I do wonder what kind of internet connection F1 tracks need to have to host races. Gotta be pretty beefy, before counting all the phones for the spectators :D

@SpencerRichKM4KFG

Жыл бұрын

@@ChrispyNutF1/WEC/IMSA Marshal here… yes Teams are provided high speed internet(usually fiber optic backbone) at the track. These internet backhaul connections are already segmented away from public cell or wifi service provided to spectators and is QoS’d to give team connections priority over most other traffic at the venue that isn’t event critical

@ChrispyNut

Жыл бұрын

@@SpencerRichKM4KFG So, 100Gb/s, 1, 10, 100Tb/s? "Fibre backbone" has huge variance. Also, thank you for you service

These Instances Make for Better, More Clear Rules Going Forward. This is Good. Also the Best Video/Content Presentation I've Seen from this Channel. Well Done.

Two races in and we already have a rule enforcement controversy

You guys really work around the clock.

This is why you don't listen to Toto Wolf....

So a simple fix here.... Penalties cannot be served under a safety car. (Just like a lot of other championships around the world) Second, penalties are to be applied at the end of a pit stop. Car comes in, Car is serviced, car is dropped, car serves time penalty if any, car leaves box.

I did question the severity of the penalty at the time. Lewis was 10.2 seconds behind at the flag, hence a 15 second penalty would have been more fitting.....

Just add the time on at the end and stop “serving” penalties during the race.

@39rbn61

Жыл бұрын

Because it would highly disadvantage drivers in a race ending in a SC situation. Which is why teams prefer to serve it as soon as possible.

@r-a-ray

Жыл бұрын

@@39rbn61 Which would never happen if THOSE rules were better.

Partial performance is a common form of contracting behaviour. On the timing of the overturn there needs to be a statute of limitation on the ability to overturn rulings or revisit them too late in the race. It’s garbage that there are multiple resources watching and that with video they aren’t getting it right quickly enough. Additional penalties being given so late in the race when it overly disadvantages the racer is not in the spirit of good racing. It’s just litigious swamp gas.

Amazing how they found video of 7 similar cases so quickly.

I wish we could still hear the radio conversations between teams and race control

Im so happy to hear he got it back