I think it is interesting however that the chief inspector, while complacent, is also fairly good at his job. He guesses based on a report almost word for word what happened to the 2 officers: they tried to shake down the wrong person for cash.

@remyschrader9286

Жыл бұрын

And then Karn went cowboy and got half a dozen more corpo's killed

@gildor8866

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately that also implies that he knew very well that his men were doing stuff like that and probably did nothing to stop such behaviour. You can easily see people like Syril Karn thinking that if only people like the chief inspector were doing their jobs properly none of these things would happen. He is trying to make a difference, starting by not looking away when being told to, trying to get people to actually do their jobs properly.

@wonttakemein272

Жыл бұрын

@@gildor8866 why would he keep them though if they cause problems

@s7robin105

Жыл бұрын

@@wonttakemein272 Why do police keep their bad apples unless forced not to? Just look at the one who left a woman on train tracks and only got paid leave instead of being fired or arrested. Corrupt systems only care about control

@FearlessSon

Жыл бұрын

@@gildor8866 I said before in a comment on a different video that corruption is generally a feature of authoritarian regimes rather than a flaw. They generally allow things like shakedowns on flimsy legal pretexts by law enforcement and so long as it helps keep the people they're trying to control in line, they're content to look the other way while keeping their own reputation laundered. They might even under-fund law enforcement juuuuust a little to tacitly encourage the practice. Private security in this case is only accountable to their parent company and whatever oligarch controls the parent company knows that being loyal to the regime is the key to keep the government contract money coming.

The dude in Obi-Wan who said "Nothing wrong with a little order" talking about the benefits of living under the Empire is another example of how they've managed to introduce a little grey into the conflict. He's just an ordinary working man who benefits from living under a totalitarian regime. I like how they've added these details over time.

@TemplinInstitute

Жыл бұрын

I agree, but that example seemed pretty surface level to me. I never understood why that guy loved the Empire so much. Not that we needed to go out of our way to get a detailed explanation. I think Karn is the payoff to what those smaller moments set up.

@welshed

Жыл бұрын

Evil is a matter of perspective after all and the history books are ultimately written by the victors.

@whilryke

Жыл бұрын

@@welshed History books are written by whoever is in charge at the moment, and it's not always the victor.

@ANDREALEONE95

Жыл бұрын

@@TemplinInstitute it's an example of people that will be never bothered by Empire and has no interest to know better.

@gavinsmith9871

Жыл бұрын

@@whilryke No actually. History books are written by...historians.

"There comes a time when the... the risk of doing nothing becomes the greatest risk of all. This is one of those decisive moments, and I can't imagine a team I'd rather share it with than all of you. There's no room for doubt on the path to... success. And, uh, justice." - Syril Karn

@ugoeze7360

Жыл бұрын

To uh… justice! Hear hear!

@icecoldpolitics8890

Жыл бұрын

If he said it with more enthusiasm it would have been a decent pep talk.

@Kaanfight

Жыл бұрын

What a great speech

@godlikemachine645

Жыл бұрын

If he ended it with the "rather share it with than all of you", it would've been really good, if a bit generic.

@PaiSAMSEN

Жыл бұрын

[image of that one trooper making a very unsubtle "I'm dying inside" slow clap]

I don't want Syril Karn to defect. I want him to be the foil to Cassian Andor: individuals radicalized by circumstances and placing near unwavering faith in a cause believing it to be the way to save the galaxy. The difference will be in how their stories end. We know how Cassian's ends. When confronted with an act he knows is wrong, he does not sacrifice his personal values for his cause and fights on an individual level for a time when people won't need to make those decisions. I want Karn's story to end after he has sacrificed his personal values and crosses that line, wherever his line is. His pursuit of authoritarianism will lose its way, no longer for sake of order and justice. Just power for power's sake

@92HazelMocha

Жыл бұрын

Something tells me Karn's part in the story will be short

@sw0rdf1sh2326

Жыл бұрын

Alternatively I'd like to see an equally-realistic scenario: upon realizing the scale of the problem he throws up his hands, burns out, and becomes just like the inspector.

@EGRJ

Жыл бұрын

@@sw0rdf1sh2326 Reminds me off The Shadow Line, or 13 Bridges.

@acealpine6806

Жыл бұрын

OMG Please don't let him defect to the Rebel Alliance. They have enough problems as it is without some Barney Fife like character sabotaging them with his incompetence. Let him become an Imperial Admiral or something.

@AeneasGemini

Жыл бұрын

I actually really don't want that to happen. I would prefer it if he died after being killed because he *wouldn't* cross that line. Also, Andor totally sacrificed his beliefs, multiple times he committed horrible acts, he only turned back because of Gin Urso

The way Syril delivered his speech makes me think that he didn't come up with it himself. Perhaps he read it in some adventure novel and it made such an impression on him that he memorized it.

@TemplinInstitute

Жыл бұрын

that was my take too, it seemed like he was just regurgitating something he'd heard elsewhere.

@pupulauls

6 ай бұрын

makes sense honestly, he kinda seems like a nerd. He has Clone Trooper statues on his desk in his room

@kamillavalter

6 ай бұрын

@@pupulauls exactly, I’d guess it was a speech delivered by some Jedi general to his clone troopers in a novel or a comic book that Syril read. The way he awkwardly pauses here: “There’s no room for doubt on the path to… success… and, uh, justice” makes me think that the original speech had slightly different wording and Syril just replaced the words with more suitable on the go.

To be honest. His superior was not wrong. He knew what could happen if they would investigate and that isnt worth for two corrupt bad guards.

@glenn_r_frank_author

Жыл бұрын

That too is an interesting bit of "Grey" morality being hinted at. He does know his job and guessed those two were "bad apples" and got what they had coming. But he has rationalized that it is better to let an alleged murderer get away without checking or providing justice. Again, you are right that he correctly assumed that these two "bad cops" got what they had coming to them by picking on the wrong guy... but still, he is rationalizing his actions and the limits of his duty.

@rubaiyat300

Жыл бұрын

@@glenn_r_frank_author Well it's also to the cops' benefit. He mentioned what they were doing was a dismissible offense. Meaning whatever might have gone to their families or other beneficiaries as a consequence of dying on the job will likely be forfeit. So yes their murderer gets away, but pursuing it can only add harm to the current situation.

@alessiodecarolis

Жыл бұрын

We can also add the fact that they were reputed "bad" by such a corrupt and morally questionable entity as the CSA! The older cop was a FORMER squad leader, the inspector hinted that he had just been demoted.

@Philipp3022

Жыл бұрын

@@rubaiyat300 and that its better to not have the attention of the empire and instead still have things in some way in their own hands..

@acealpine6806

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Not only that, but the rest of the crew seemed to think that as well. But no, Syril was out to make a name for himself.

Actually, the chief inspector's tale was probably more closer to the truth than what Karn suspects what happened.

@vos7619

Жыл бұрын

@@Aries2890 Hyne literally tells him to blame it on a human of darker complexion. The makes everything you said null and void. The whole point of that scene is show that hes corrupt, and to show us what type of system this Corpo Police force is. Any arguement for a potentially "simple working man" Hyne, is pointless after that statement.

@godlikemachine645

Жыл бұрын

@@vos7619 it was a human of darker complexion who killed the 2 guards though? What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? He didn't even want to look for him.

@vos7619

Жыл бұрын

@@godlikemachine645 I might have missed the context, sorry if so, but I thought they didn't know know who killed the guards until later on after that scene. Hyne didn't even let him finish telling him exactly what happened, so how would he have known? In fact Syril didn't even know who killed them until episode 2 when the woman from the brothel gave them the lead.

@lemonynora

Жыл бұрын

@@Aries2890 this is an excellent description of both characters. fascism thrives when people are like complacent or indifferent and just want to get on with day to day living rather than rock the boat one way or another

I think you're selling the Inspector short. He correctly deduced the guards got themselves killed mugging the wrong person and that the truth was a lot more dangerous to the company than the random guy involved. He even threw in an attempt to launder their reputations. I do think what you're describing is how Karn misunderstood the situation, though.

In my opinion, one of the best examples of making trully moraly grey Imperial, was Ciana Ree from Lost Stars, woman, that trully believed in the cause, that was not cruel, evil or incompetent. She was a good soldier, compasionet one, always looking out for her comrads and friends. It is exactly because of this, that she hated Rebelion so much, and why she denied in her mind, evil of the system, because she was blinded by hate and sorrow, over her friends dying by the hands of the Rebelion.

@LightintheShadow100

Жыл бұрын

This is why she is one of my favorite imperial characters.

@RoboticPope

Жыл бұрын

Janek "Tank" Sunber in Legends also.

@thelordofcringe

Жыл бұрын

@@RoboticPope one of the most underrated characters in all of star wars right there

@seekingabsolution1907

Жыл бұрын

Fair enough. She was in the wrong but not through malice.

@Not_actually_a_commie

Жыл бұрын

@@RoboticPope Can’t believe I almost forgot about him

The canon thrawn series and lost stars are amazing and gives us those karn like characters, it shows us it's not just black and white but every imperial is a person who is doing this for their own reasons

@LightintheShadow100

Жыл бұрын

I want nothing more than "Lost Stars" to get a faithful big screen or TV adaptation. Though I don't really trust the current industry to do it.

@lewycraft

Жыл бұрын

@@LightintheShadow100 to be fair, i would love the manga version to get animated adaptation, as i trully believe it would be good.

@Jollyroger84103

Жыл бұрын

Vanto and Thrawn are both examples of good people working for an evil regime. Or at the very least, sympathetic people working for an evil regime.

@masonruhlen

Жыл бұрын

@@lewycraft there's a manga version of lost stars? I really need to check that out

@masonruhlen

Жыл бұрын

@@Jollyroger84103 agreed, but not just them. Commodore Faro, many of his bridge crew, and I forget his name but the other grand admiral in the 3rd book as well as pelleon all fit the bill as well, if the empire wasn't around when these people were think about how their dedication would be for the good

Karn is a pretty interesting villain, I think. In any other show, he'd be the protagonist. Disciplined, truthful, true to his personal morals, and an advocate of justice. But in here, he's part of a corrupt institution, and his actions end up as failures. And the more he fails, the more likely he is to abandon his ideals in search of victory, turning him into a proper villain.

_"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster" - Friedrich Nietzsche_ Indeed, the most tragic villains are those who would otherwise be heroes if not for external manipulation &/or unfortunate circumstances. In these first three episodes of the new Andor series, Syril Karn has indeed made himself already stand out as a live-action Star Wars antagonist. Where his story goes from here, I'm quite curious to know.

@clement28300yip

Жыл бұрын

That sounds a lot like the description of Anakin Skywalker.

@occultatumquaestio5226

Жыл бұрын

@@clement28300yip ; _It's like poetry, it rhymes." - George Lucas_

@NarasimhaDiyasena

Жыл бұрын

I’m hopeful Dedra hires him on to the ISB. She wants that box, and he wants Cassio.

20 years in the US Navy and I so felt that Junior Officer and Senior Enlisted vibe. I have so been on the other side of that Officer speech a few times. My two new favorite characters in Star Wars.

@jonathangodin4775

Жыл бұрын

That whole scene SCREAMED RSM and CO giving a speech. Down to the RSM making the men clap after the CO's shitty overly long speech. Guarenteed someone with somr militart experience helped write that scene

@sean668

Жыл бұрын

I loved when the sergeant passed it over to Syril and he just froze like he shit himself

@kevindavis4456

Жыл бұрын

That was my first though during that scene. Heard a few of those speeches during my time in the AF.

@Daniel-Strain

Жыл бұрын

While the same issues may exist in both forces, the big difference is one serves a civilian democracy and is a legitimate authority, and the other serves a dictatorial regime - deserving no professional respect, no fellowship, no parallel, and no comparison to legitimate soldiers. The one and only source of nobility for the soldier is that they serve and ultimately answer to the people they protect.

@GawainSSB

Жыл бұрын

@@Daniel-Strain you're taking politics way too seriously bro

Personally I get the feeling the guy's corporate overlords are in enough of a Galactic quiet spot that The Empire could have spontaneously turned back into The Republic and nothing would have really changed.

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much. Just look at how Tatooine looks in the Prequels and then during the original trilogy.

One thing I'm looking forward to in Karn's tragedy is when his superior gets back and learns of the mess that was made of the push to find Andor, because I can easily see Hyne say to Karn "I told you to let this go, but you didn't. What started with two people dead has grown to over a dozen, all because of *your* actions. Now we've got attention we don't need from the Empire and more of us might die." I see the tragedy of Karn being on multiple levels, because he's going to struggle with making sense of his mistakes in the face of what's happened and with the fact that ultimately things probably would have turned out better for him and the rest of his team if he had just listened to Hyne. The latter, especially, is something I don't think he can allow himself because it's pretty obvious he thinks Hyne is a bad person who doesn't deserve his position. So I expect we're going to see Karn spiral hard into justifying his actions and excusing the losses that occurred because of them because the alternative is acknowledging the system, both his corporate one and the Galactic Empire which it is subservient to, doesn't care about him and he would have been personally better off just doing nothing.

@18Krieger

Жыл бұрын

I imagine that the Empire will be interested in him. While his superior might want to punish him, the Empire might be eager to use him. They might see it as him being willing to sacrifice his men so the job can done in the name of duty.

@ronkolek613

Жыл бұрын

Problem is, this fiasco is going to get on the ISB’s radar as a ‘rebel cell’ and turn into even more of a crap show. So that muppet is basically going to create a rebel presence where there was none before, just by being an eager beaver.

@gildor8866

Жыл бұрын

I can easily see the Empire coming in and telling him that he did right thing. He clearly discovered that a lot more was going on, he was up against coldblooded killers trading top secret imperial goods. Yes, a lot of his people died when the threat was far bigger then he could have imagined. But thanks to him doing what he did and not following his superiors instructions the Empire is now aware of the threat an will dedicate the necessary resources to hunt down these murders. And in the spirit of Jed Bartlet from the West Wing recuiting Charlie Young: "Your men were killed by coldblooded terrorists who want to bring down the empire. We haven't had much success in finding them yet but we intend to bring them to justice. So what do you say? Wan't to come and help us out?"

@acealpine6806

Жыл бұрын

@@gildor8866 LOL. Boy did this not age well 🤣

@gildor8866

Жыл бұрын

@@acealpine6806 Well, its the road obviously not taken by the empire 😀

Star Wars EU stuff has always been hit or miss when it comes to moral ambiguity, particularly with the Empire. On the one hand, things like The Glove of Darth Vader and Darksaber have villains so cartoonishly evil you wonder why anyone would join them. On the other hand some works that turned the Imperial Remnant into more of an anti hero faction almost seemed to give the message “See? If the leader isn’t an evil wizard, dictatorships aren’t too bad!” But so far I feel RO and Andor have done a good job of implementing this ambiguity.

@pyramidsong

Жыл бұрын

With the OT being an extremely black and white morality fairy tale set in space, “gray” and “nuance” are not super common in Star Wars stories. That being said I love the direction of Andor

@LB-py9ig

Жыл бұрын

@@pyramidsong You don't need nuance, but you need to convince me there is a reason people are following the villain faction. I can believe spaceships and I can believe conquering worlds, but you will not convince me people wouldn't desert Kylo Ren on mass. Guy is an unlikable tool. After a while people are going to realize, 'yeah, guy will kill us by the dozens if we threaten to run but listening to him is getting us killed by the hundreds. If he can't catch one lone run away like Finn, what chance does he stand if fifty of us run? Better yet, we don't run, but instead just light edgy ass up?'

@mikiroony

Жыл бұрын

I like how Robot chicken painted Vader as not having real power, but he thinks he can choke people, so everyone plays along and then gets reassigned xD

@eps200

Жыл бұрын

Its explicitly adressed in the NJO. Han is sort of taken in by Pelleon "i thought he was a good guy now". Leia has to remind him what the empire is about evem with a good man in charge.

@pennyforyourthots

Жыл бұрын

Personally, I think it's probably a symptom of the time it was created. That sort of "hippie liberalism" of the time has this super individualistic approach to systematic problems, where the systems themselves are neutral and all the problems or successes come from the person running it. If an evil person runs the government, then the government will do evil. If a good person runs the government, then the government will do good. I actually think you see George Lucas evolve a bit in his understanding of systematic problems with the prequel films, because you begin to see him explicitly addressing things like lobbying and profit incentives, which perpetuates systems of oppression. A heads of these corporations are still cartoonishly evil aliens and dark side wizards, but it's evolved a little bit from "replace the evil King with a questionably representative democracy". You see this problem with other media written by liberal authors as well. Writers like JK Rowling will design an oppressive racist wizard government with a supremacist attitude that doesn't acknowledge the sapience of certain magical creatures. This government obviously spawns a wizard Hitler, who takes all of these existing problems to their logical extent and applies that same logic to muggles and the wizards themselves. When this villain is defeated, the system itself isn't actually changed in any meaningful way because "the good guys are in charge now, so nothing's wrong anymore" and the main character even becomes what is basically a magical cop to continue to enforce that same system. Whereas right and far-right authors tend to be very black and white with a clear "good" and "bad" side (ex. Starship troopers), liberal authors tend to operate a bit more in a gray area, but because they're understanding of societal systems is still pretty lacking, you end up with a weird blending of black and white morality with shades of Grey that muddle the message a bit (ex. Harry Potter). Sometimes in the works of liberal authors, you'll even have the villain make a good point but it often goes unaddressed because there is simply no way to correct it within that political worldview except "do better". It's why in "the falcon in Winter soldier" if they acknowledge that the revolutionaries made a good point that these powerful people literally decide the fates of others with an email, but they're only responses to tell them to do better, they simply aren't able to question WHY these people have this much power in the first place because that leads you to a more radical ideology (either right, where these people have some innate quality that makes them better at leadership, or left, where there is no reason for them to hold these positions, so they should be stripped from them). Of course, these are just general trends that I've noticed. Obviously conservative authors aren't the only people to write black and white morality, and sometimes both of these groups perfectly understand how systems work and just simply have different conclusions on whether they are actually bad or not. This also doesn't mention the political Fringe, which also has a very different approach to these topics. This isn't really meant to be political, just acknowledging that the time these films came out were all incredibly political times and so that had some effect on the art. TL;DR people didn't really understand the social and economic systems that caused fascism when Star wars first came out, so the originals reflect the political position of the Creator at the time (messy and inaccurate). During newer films, and media made by other creators, you see a different understanding of fascism, which is where you see the various shades of Gray to a greater or lesser extent.

Aside from Darth Vader, General Veers was the second Imperial I respected. Professional, courteous, and capable of adapting to the circumstances. On Hoth, when the rebels figured out how to trip his AT-AT walkers, Veers responded by having them walk side by side so the Rebel airspeeders couldn't trip one walker without smashing into the legs of another. The man is the quintessential example of an Imperial.

@marseldagistani1989

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget about Firmus Piett

@LightintheShadow100

Жыл бұрын

@@marseldagistani1989 Possibly my favorite imperial officer.

@ardentfire3956

Жыл бұрын

I've watched Empire Strikes Back a thousand times and never noticed that detail. Stellar work!

@snugglecity3500

Жыл бұрын

@@LightintheShadow100 admiral pellaeon is superior.

@martinjrgensen8234

Жыл бұрын

Veers was a consummate soldier and leader.

Reminds me a little of the moral questions in Deep Space Nine regarding Odo's work under the Cardassians, that he was simultaneously working to keep people safe and bring wrongdoers to justice, while also working under a terrible system and assisting in maintaining it's order

@remyschrader9286

Жыл бұрын

Odo is competent

I feel like we watched completely different episodes. Hein was experienced enough, and actually knew one of these men, to know that these two officers were corrupt and was almost a certainty they got themselves killed through their own malfeasance and knew they weren't worth the resources of an investigation.

@eps200

Жыл бұрын

That's how the Chief saw it but not how Karn saw it. The chief being a veteran knew it wasn't a battle worth fighting so didn't even try. Karn saw immediate capitulation to a murderer.

There are lots of competent people in the Empire, but they end up spending so much time and effort fighting each-other (because Palpatine finds that hilarious,) that they can't actually do their jobs.

@kevindavis4456

Жыл бұрын

It's pretty much the Sith way. An apprentice can only advance by becoming powerful enough to kill the master, and the master must dispose of the apprentice before they become too powerful and overthrow and kill them. This was how the Sith worked even before the rule of two. Palpatine extended this system to the entire empire.

@cynicat74

Жыл бұрын

@@kevindavis4456 Depends on the era of Sith, but that definitely applies to both the Rule of Two, and Darth Bane's Sith.

Andor so far is a treasure with its character exploration on all sides of the conflict and we are barely 1 story arc into the series! Much like the moral complexity expressed in many of the novels and comics which have thus far been fairly lacking in the on screen media for Star Wars.

You mentioned that it was hard to understand how the Empire held on to its power, but compared to how long other governments and even other empires lasted, it didn't. The Empire ended 23 years after Palpatine declared his ascendency, centuries before other empires would have even considered to reach their infancy.

@rubaiyat300

Жыл бұрын

Yeah much was made of what a failure the prequel Jedi were and they were (though Sidious had plot shields that could have stopped the Death Star) but in the end it was the culmination of a 1000 year effort and all it ultimately did was put a Sith into power for like 36 years total, and maybe another 30 years of shadowy influence...and all the involved Sith dead. On the balance, gotta shrug it off as the short-term bold gambit it was and move on.

@arishemghoul9571

Жыл бұрын

didnt the empire last over 100 years in legends

@rowanmcclantoc5418

Жыл бұрын

@@arishemghoul9571 kind of? Even then it's a shell of what it once was, always waiting for the next time Palpatine returns to restore it to it's former glory.

@redline841

Жыл бұрын

@@arishemghoul9571 Empire turned into glass. It had an Alexander moment

@tython055

Жыл бұрын

@@redline841 Palpatine had no intention of letting the Empire outlive himself in the event that he's been killed. Nor did he intend for said Empire to evolve into a galactic power that would last more than a millennium like the Galactic Republic before them. Why the hell do you think the Empire's vehicles and Stormtroopers have shitty weapons and training in the first place? 🙄 Palpatine cared for one purpose and one purpose only: achieve immortality and become an omnipotent god to rule over the Star Wars universe.

We've already seen those who mistakenly believe in the Empire; every Senator swayed by Palpatine's speech in Revenge of the Sith. The implication is the general public--at least the *human* general public--likewise believes that the Empire saved them from a corrupt Republic and a treacherous Jedi Order. Those who have reason to doubt are kept in line by fear. Parallels were invited, by Lucas himself, to the transformation from the Roman Republic, to the Roman Empire. As for what real life parallels might be drawn....well, sure I could do that. But far too many people wouldn't like the answer.

@dobbysboggart6883

Жыл бұрын

Lucas himself said that the Empire is based on the direction he thought Nixon's America was going.

Actually, what is even more sad is that his superior was right. Officers were killed in a fight, trying to annoy a person who they shouldn't. And Karns unwillingness to accept this dim view of his fellow officers leads him to pursue insubordinate investigation that leads to multiple deaths along with a civilian casualty unrelated to the investigation, in fact they killed their informant. Had Karn not be an idealist or had he not been diligent and driven officer proud to serve, he wouldnt cause all the death and destruction. But then he would not have been Syril Karn. I suspect, Karn will be put on leave, perhaps even dismissed and he will blame Andor for it rather than his own idealism. Otherwise, if his superior decides to sweep this also under a rug he will be disillusioned with the force and joins Imperial military proper.

@jaywaii3187

Жыл бұрын

You're right, except I don't see Karn as being either idealistic or diligent. Instead, I see him being obsessive and stubborn right from his first scene. Perhaps the other side of the same coin, but it was clear to me that something was not quite right about him that he went out of his way to alter the details of his own uniform.

@ronkolek613

Жыл бұрын

@@jaywaii3187 thank you. That is so out of line for a junior officer to alter their uniform as to defy belief. Only high ranking tenured officers have that leeway.

@AbsolXGuardian

Жыл бұрын

He also refuses to accept that his coworkers weren't anything close to his moral ideal, part of the blindness that keeps him in that job.

But are we going to ignore how Syril Karn behaved during executing the warrant in the home of Andor?

@bottom_crust

Жыл бұрын

FOr real homie was an irredeemable bootlicker lmao

@mondaysinsanity8193

Жыл бұрын

Or the fact the chief inspector was kinda right. They died as thugs breaking their own laws and forced someone to defend themselves. Its obvious from the circumstances. He can find the killer put an honestly innocent man behind bars and expose the men who died as thugs. Or just give a humble but good death

@slovakiaballif24

Жыл бұрын

I don't think many people understand this, but when you are radicalized to a cause, anyone opposing the cause becomes an enemy. It's a black-and-white worldview that is pushed because it makes it easier to justify morally wrong acts to people under the assumption that they are evil for opposing you. While that sounds unthinkable to many people who aren't in those kinds of circles, it is how they think. Slowly, as the person is more radicalized, the more they will come to hate their "enemy". And the more they hate their enemy, the more likely they are to commit acts of violence against them. I bet this is the same kind of radicalization that occurred even for rebel extremists like Saw Gerrera.

@boc120

Жыл бұрын

@@mondaysinsanity8193 I mean, the second guy was definitely not a self-defence kill. It was an execution of a man who was no longer a danger.

@alessiodecarolis

Жыл бұрын

@@boc120 Andor had just killed a Corp officer, he knew what would've happened to him, don't think that they would've cared about how involuntary had been the act, so he choose to kill the only witness, not without any remorse.

While I suspect Syril will be a defector, as that's typically how Star Wars goes, I would love to see him slowly become the Javert to Andor's ValJean. at least for this first season.

@18Krieger

Жыл бұрын

I get the vibes that he will end up as an Imperial. Andor changes from independent freedom fighter to a Rebell fighter, so will Syril change from SecOfficer to Imperial Officer. The Empire wants men that are willing to sacrifies their own men to fullfill their duty.

A really good example of a morally grey Imperial is Rae Sloane. Her world was ridden with crimes and chaos but the Empire brought law and order to it. She sees the faults in the Empire but she believes it brings order to a galaxy which desperately needs it.

@AbsolXGuardian

Жыл бұрын

The Aftermath trilogy is also a very good place to have such a character. She tries to hold the Empire together, while it destroys itself in accordance to the Emperor's last wishes. She's a realistic villian vs an extreme example of evil (and the new eu has made Palpatine more evil to facilitate the Empire falling so quickly). Then she becomes in charge of the Imperial Remenant, but is likely killed by Snoke. Which while the Aftermath trilogy set up as some vague dark side thing in the Unknown Regions, in light of TROS its actually just Palpatine again.

what you are talking about is why I loved the book Star Wars Lost Stars it shows more grey than black and white.

@starwarsnerd100

Жыл бұрын

I don’t know if I’d call Lost Stars “gray”, but it’s definitely the most in depth look into why someone might stay with the Empire even after it’s atrocities, and all the mental gymnastics and good intentions that go with it.

Emperor Palpatine: "In order to ensure the security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized... *INTO THE FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE! FOR A SAFE AND SECURE SOCIETY!!!"*

It was apparent to me in his first scene that Karn's dedication to his job was not meant to be positive, but what seed a fascist entity like the Empire wants. I saw Karn as neither idealistic nor diligent, but instead obsessive, narrow-minded, and fanatical. I imagine that it's not entirely his fault either, his inability to form meaningful relationships with his coworkers leads me to believe that his upbringing was not healthy. And some fault lies with his peers and superiors. Chief Hynes was right in deduction of what actually went down and his solution was probably for the best, but he was dismissive of Karn's concerns, which is likely their typical relationship. Had Hynes explained to him the situation more compassionately, had a better mentor/student relationship with him, Karn might have been a diligent, idealistic officer without going to the extreme (of course, that's not the point of his character in this story - he's supposed to demonstrate the dangers of fanatical belief over rationality).

"Look Jimmy, it's a stormtrooper! Let's thank him for his duty." "IM ON MY KARKING LUNCH BREAK, OK?!" "Are you insane?! The commandant will hear of this!" "You think that's a threat? You think you can make my life any karking worse? Be my guest!" -ISB record of conversation between an Imperial citizen and stormtrooper. Citizen given citation for harassing an officer on duty.

Like many people employed in the.. 'enforcement of laws that protect capital and corporate interests', he's not drawn to his job out of a matter of wanting to do good, but as an opportunity to enforce authority. We never see him contemplating Cassian's motives, or scrutinise actions of the dead guards. He takes on Cassian so he can order people around, grow in the ranks, and uphold the fascistic ideals of the Empire. Just because he's unequipped for what's to come didn't mean he had any objections going after a suspect just to keep the 'Empire's blade sharp'. He benefits of cruelty he doesn't question but seemingly admires. Making him a bastard, plain and simple.

@thomaskole9881

Жыл бұрын

ATAB; All Troopers Are Bastards

I hope Karn never gets any redemption arc. He's a lawful good guy working for a lawful evil system that he doesn't realize is evil. He believes the system is good but it will only chew him up and spit him out. His every setback should lead him to double his faith in the system. It's not the system that's wrong, it's that he didn't believe in it hard enough. So he believes harder, and gets slapped in the face by the system. At the end after his last defeat and he's bitter and at rock bottom, he has a one-on-one conversation with Andor, and asks "I believe in the Empire. I did everything the Empire asked of me. So why am I here?" That's when he learns the system he served was never good or just and he was just a tool being exploited. Then he blows his own brains out, not out of guilt, but out of bitterness that he wasted his life serving a system that was a lie.

Something to remember, bad organizations need good people in order to function. The cover of the empire is built (albeit unwillingly) on the backs and sometimes lives of good or at least well intentioned people.

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

And another thing to remember. To some people, bad organizations are the good guys who do what they feel is necessary to head off a bigger evil. Likely, after the Clone Wars and the lack of oversight by the Republic, a lot of people would be willing to welcome the Empire with open arms if it meant ending the Chaos and lawlessness

Evil tends to be much more mundane than what happens in fiction

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

And, most of the time, is done by normal people rather than cartoonish villains.

I would actually disagree here. His superior tried to talk some sense into him - not because he simply wanted to shun the responsibility. He actually raised some good points which flew over the head of a less experienced guy. He accurately deduced EVERYTHING that has happened, because he has lifelong experience and he knows the people in question. It was clear to him that the suspect was not going around making problems, until two corrupt servicemen attacked him. And chasing down that person will cost more lives, take up time and money - all that can and should be used to prevent actual crimes that plague ordinary people. To the chief inspector, that guy did nothing to upset the order. He defended himself from corrupt cops. And in chasing the suspect, not only is he putting the lives of others on the line and wasting resources, he is also opening a file on those two dead guys - and their corruption will be the subject of investigation. Which would have meaning if they were alive. But they were not. So it will muddy their name in death, their families (if they have them) won't get anything, company will get a bad rep, and a whole district will suffer due to the event. So yeah, when you put everything into the equation, not only did the guy deduce everything from merely looking over a report, his experience helped him make a decision that is absolutely the best in this situation. Bad cops get some dignity in death, local economy does not take a hit, company does not take a hit, further loss of life and funds is prevented and, thankfully, the suspect won't bother anyone just like he didn't do it so far - otherwise he would be on their radar sooner. So here, Karn didn't do his duty. He is just a stupid hothead that lacks experience and does not understand what justice and order, two main points that he should protect, even mean. He puts the law above them, not realizing that the law is just a tool and that justice and order are end goals. Which the chief inspector does understand. That is why he acts that way. For him, it is a routine case. He knows exactly what to do and get the best outcome of the entire mess.

@remyschrader9286

Жыл бұрын

And now the Empire is going to get wind and provide oversight and that's bad news for everyone

@ronkolek613

Жыл бұрын

@@remyschrader9286 yeah, the whole fiasco is going to be spun into a ‘rebel cell’. And once ISB gets involved, they’ll make it a self fulfilling prophecy.

When Hyne's back at his desk: "What did I tell you to do? WHAT DID I TELL YOU TO DO!?!"

Syril Karn was a good character

Dang, you should have used the quote. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

@UGNAvalon

Жыл бұрын

6:30

@Slade1818

Жыл бұрын

@@UGNAvalon it was close thats why I said that

Cianna Ree from lost stars is another good example of a good soul in the service of evil,she's a real damn good character who was loyal to a fault

@AbsolXGuardian

Жыл бұрын

I'd love to see Templin do a video about Cienna and Thane, as they're exactly what he said he wanted to see at the start of this video. The side characters around Cienna are also more examples of sympathetic Imperials. The closest the book has to a villian is an Alderaanian who is just trying to cope with the genocide of his people by the regime he serves. The socialist utopian monarchy of Alderaan is also why he saw the Empire as a good thing in the first place, basically the only critique of the Alderaanian monarchy in the entire new eu. And the manga adaption provides him with plenty of visuals to work with.

I really love this analysis. Great stuff

We have seen an microscopic amount of imperials, and even then we have seen plenty who are just doing their jobs without being cartoon villains.

1:29 So basically Stormtroopers who only exist to always get shot down by the Rebels and always miss their targets despite being the Galactic Empire's elite fighting force.

@neofulcrum5013

Жыл бұрын

The propaganda tends to play into that mentality that they’re unstoppable

@polishscribe674

Жыл бұрын

It was said in A New Hope that they were missing on purpose. "They let us go" - princess Leia. Not to mention that the first time we see them they rush through a choke point and win the fight against a dozen of rebels getting like 2 men of total casualties.

@18Krieger

Жыл бұрын

Well Stormtroopers are a mix between Marine and political military police force. It seems that the current canon suggests that the quality is dependend on where the Stormtrooper is recruited. Outerim Stormtrooper have less training and are less competent than others. Stormtrooper of the 501st are elite compared to them.

Makes me think of Pellaeon frankly, particularly the EU version.

Honestly Making him defect would be so stupid cuz like “oh you just carbombed my buddies but the empire bad so I’ll join you”

@stephenwood6663

Жыл бұрын

I'm inclined to agree. One of the things that inspires Karn to launch the operation is his loyalty to his colleagues. He's obviously shaken when the chief inspector is so quick to accuse his fallen colleagues of corruption and thuggery. Much as the chief inspector happens to be right, he's clearly unwilling to assume the worst about them without direct evidence.

After all Karn is a metaphor about how fascism is also corporativism.

@straightjacket219

Жыл бұрын

When the govt owns or chairs the corporation(along with every aspect of life) its facisism, when the corporation owns the govt that's corporatism.

@straightjacket219

Жыл бұрын

Both are not Ideal. Yes laws need to be fallowed but laws shouldn't extort.

You know, your comment about Karn being bad at making connections with people and thus investing himself into an organization reminds me of two things: Number one, myself. Since I'm on the autism spectrum, I find it hard to connect with people and thus get really invested in franchises: video games, TV series, movies, toylines, comics and the like. I think it's why I feel so devastated when a series/franchise I like seems like it might end or when it seems like it might change in a way I feel is antithetical to what said series/franchise should be: If I don't have that series or whatever, then I feel like I have less to live for. Number two, Symmetra, one of my favorite characters to play as in Overwatch (for a number of reasons). She's also on the autism spectrum and is also devoted to an organization, in this case the shady (but, since I like Symmetra, I think they aren't all bad (they helped Zenyatta's monastery once) and could possibly even be reformed) Vishkar Corporation in an effort to bring the world order, which has driven a wedge between her and some other characters in the setting, who see her and Vishkar as misguided and/or evil.

He's not the first in Star Wars to be of this mold just the latest. Rebels introduced the arc for Agent Kallus (and Wedge who initially was an Imperial pilot). Even A New Hope made out Biggs going to the Imperial Academy before Luke who wanted to follow. The Obi-Wan show introduced Tala who was an Imperial Officer who turned after her idealism didn't match what the Empire was doing. The book Lost Stars covers two kids who grew up under the Empire and each wanting to join the Empire and their experiences affecting where they went in life.

@UGNAvalon

Жыл бұрын

1:06 - Your argument basically reinforces Marc’s assertion that any good person within the Empire will *Inevitably* defect to the Rebellion. Karn should be a case in which that _Isn’t_ true.

@dobbysboggart6883

Жыл бұрын

In his deleted scene, Biggs said he always wanted to join the Rebellion.

Don't worry Bout moral complexity, killing a servant of fascism is always a moral and just action

@aardappelmethoed1151

Жыл бұрын

You can still see the complexity of something in one hand and have a hammer in the other

I am soooo looking forward to more of the Templin Institute's take on the Andor series. It's as if this latest Star Wars was custom designed for Templin perspectives and creative points of view. Thank you for truly being one of the coolest, most creative and insightful things on KZread these days. Look forward to continuing to support your channels. In a world filled with superficial fluff, your work is refreshing.

Syril Karn will sacrifice himself for Preox-Morlana...even if he has no idea what the company actually do.

Karn is a great example (so far) of the "Banality of Evil"

I do understand the nuance and in fact like to point them out in my comments and writings, yet I still find it hard to be sympathetic. Whatever their reasons to support the Empire, they are accomplices to its evil and contributor to the consequences of said evil, whether it be a stormtrooper bullying their poor non-Human neighbours or peaceful planets getting blown up by the Death Star.

@TheSuperRatt

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! As an Imperial, one is still supporting slavery; making "aliens" second class citizens, reclassifying certain "alien" species as non-persons, exploiting mid and outer rim planets, the list goes on and on. It's understandable why one wouldn't want to betray their families, lose everything they have, etc. but it isn't sympathetic.

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

By that corollary, all Germans were accomplices to the Third Reich and all British were accomplices to the horrors of British colonialism as well as all Americans were accomplices to the slave trade. Or simply that most people are just trying to live their lives as best they can within a horrible situation they have no say in.

@TheVoiceOfReason93

Жыл бұрын

@@Lobsterwithinternet Technically, yes. They're still either coming to terms with it or trying to avoid thinking about it.

As of the latest episode (7), we get the quick scene were Syril steps aside for mouse droid. Which I think is very telling about his sense of self-worth.

I think it's a misread to see Karn as a sympathetic character. his lack of charisma and inability to connect with others seems intended to make him a loathsome character, to deny any redeeming qualities to him. In his introduction, he admits he's altered his uniform with piping and tailoring, showing a vanity that seems to drive his anger at the death of the two officers too. He's outraged at the idea of two men in uniform being killed, and doesn't stop to consider the circumstances or the actual people involved- it's not about the men, it's about the uniform, the organization which their deaths are a slight against. I agree he's invested his identity into the corporation, but less out of a desire for comrades as for his own sense of importance. He immediately shows us just how much he cares for the actual people in uniform when he orders the sensor officer to pursue an arduous task and when he's questioned, does not explain or simply reaffirm the order but threatens to have the man fired. it's not about the men, it's not about actual people, they don't matter to him. It's about the authority of the organization, and perhaps the sense of importance and power that transfers to him, how he feels that has been disrespected. I agree a three-dimensional representation of an imperial, or pseudo-imperial, would make for a more interesting character. Perhaps one who lost someone growing up on a lawless cartel world and saw imperial or corporate order as a way to protect others from the anarchy they grew up in. Karn seems more to be the embodiment of the outsider, the authoritarian, the imperial "colonizer" who sees the world in a hierarchy and uses that to place himself above others, even where he does not seem to have earned it by any display of ability. He's not the leader he thinks he is as he demands and threatens while offering little respect in return, and that gets shown in his interactions with the watch crew and his lack of ability in the field with the strike team. He assumes that others will simply know their place, that he and his men will not need to coordinate with local authorities but simply walk in and search who they want, seize who they want, that they have a right to it. He seems irritated that the locals are causing such a fuss when he detains an old woman in her own home. He's as broken as he is at the end of the third episode because he was unable to even comprehend that the authority might not be enough, that somehow the corp might lose, that he might lose. He can't understand what's happened. He's not so much a foil for Cassian as he is a human representation of what Cassian hates, what he's fighting. I'm afraid he's very much in the same vein as the mustache twirlers we've gotten before, and I think we'll see more of this in the rest of the series.

It's important to remember that the Republic, and later, the New Republic, were themselves rife with problems, inefficiencies, and corruptions. It's quite easy to find those burned by the shortcomings of the supposed "good guys", and provide a solution. People burned by the former will fight for the latter, even if it just pushes the problem off somewhere else.

@MrImastinker

Жыл бұрын

But let's not forget that the New Republic was pretty much dictated to fail by lazy writing. Just to set up Rebels vs Empire 2.0 in the Sequel Trilogy.

@TheTrueAdept

Жыл бұрын

@@MrImastinker No, in the old EU, the New Republic was going that same route but was avoided because of Thrawn exposing the problems of the Republic and led to some reforms (though, the New Republic died anyway, largely due to the reforms not going _deep enough_ to fix the problems). The Sequel Trilogy is what happens when you've got a group dominated by people who are, to borrow a Fallout term, having a severe case of 'Old World Blues' about the Old Republic.

@MrImastinker

Жыл бұрын

@@TheTrueAdept While you have a good point about the EU, the point stands that the story depicted the New Republic being forced to change and evolve. As opposed to simply being wiped out just like *that* as a lazy narrative tool to reset the franchise. My issue is that, side by side, the storytelling surrounding the Canon New Republic is so *lazy.* The EU New Republic reforming into the Galactic Alliance, then later being forced on the defensive before forming a triumvirate with the Jedi and Imperial Remnant, was infinitely more interesting than anything that happened in Canon.

@TheTrueAdept

Жыл бұрын

@@MrImastinker the problem is that you're dealing with a population that 1) has spend several decades in war and 2) have blinders on when it comes to the flaws of the Old Republic. Hence why I used the term 'Old World Blues' to describe the majority of the Rebellion...

@MrImastinker

Жыл бұрын

@@TheTrueAdept That's a perfectly valid plotline to explore, for sure. But... come on, let's not pretend Lucasfilm didn't have to do that in order to work around the "New Republic gets blown up, it's Rebels vs Empire" again reset in Episode VII. The entire conflict of the Sequel Trilogy could have dealt with a flawed New Republic trying to move past the failures of the old, and that "Old World Blues" issue you addressed. But that's not what happened. Instead, we got essentially a reboot, a retread of what came before.

I hope he doesn't defect. I'm sick of Imperial Defectors. We need more loyalists who arent laughably evil like thr girl from Lost Stars, Thrawn, or even more like Mayfeld who didn't defect but is his own man.

Extremely well done!

The only real disagreement I have with this is Karn automatically assumed his people have been murdered instead of finding out _why_ they died, so from the moment we meet him he's already broken which means he might not be worth our sympathy. Especially because he knew the two guards where in a place that was _way_ more expensive than their salaries would justify, so if he's saying that employees of the corporation's security team can do no wrong despite evidence (and the word of his commander) to the contrary, he may already be beyond sympathy.

@eps200

Жыл бұрын

Corruption doesn't justify execution. One of them was shot dead while on his knees. If Karn had his way i suspect andor would hang and the corrupt cops would be outed and the survivor benefits forfeit.

A well put and insightful analysis yet again. Thank you for your service!

I suggest reading Becoming Evil and Ordinary Men if the subject of the way everyday people become committed to horrendous acts.

I just finished episode 3. That actor is killing it in this show.

In another story, Syril would be the determined young detective who refuses to abandon the hunt for a criminal who slaughtered two members of the police force, regardless of corrupt, self-serving bureaucrats who get in the way of him doing his duty. He would be "Dirty" Syril and we'd be rooting for him. In another story, Dedra would wind up being his trusty "guy in the chair" surreptitiously protecting him from the bureaucracy and feeding him resources from the bureaucracy. My prediction: Dedra is going to figure out the former deputy inspector is the only source for the information she wants--he's would have been the source of the reports she's been denied. She'll quietly reach out to him and pull him either officially or unofficially into the arms of the Empire. Long-range projection: Syril will be a junior officer on the Death Star during the Battle of Yavin.

There is a reason why the path to hell is paved with good intentions after all

I think it's important to note the shortsightedness in Karn's worldview that his superior sees past. Karn cares so much about the deaths of his fellow officers that he fully ignores everything illegal they were doing at the time, or as the chief inspector points out, they can't even prove it's murder. While it's debatable whether or not covering up the incident is a good idea, I also think it's fair to say Karn hasn't even considered what his boss might be protecting PreMor from by pretending everything is fine.

I think you forgot about Thrawn, (at least in Legendes) he treates his peolpe good and fights for a unitified Galaxie to be prepared for the yousang vong

If he was born on a different planet, maybe he can do some good, but earlier or later he would still be a corpo. The Republic let the free trade zones happen and the New Republic didn't do much to fix it either

The tragedy is see in Karn is that he reminds me so much of Buzz Lightyear from both Star Command and Lightyear. Buzz also has problems connecting to others around him (with the exception of one person) and dedicates himself to his cause religiously. Although that obsession in their cause can lead to those around them suffering for their sake, Buzz learns the lessons that Karn doesn't and Buzz's dedication becomes a positive feature but Karn will probably dig his head deeper in the sand and justify any atrocious means to enforce what he calls "Justice".

I really loved the fact that Chief Inspector Hyne starts out looking like a lazy, probably corrupt (albeit perceptive) do-nothing cop when we first meet him, but seems like fricking Nostradamus by the end of Ep 3. The look on Kahn's face when he realised this for himself the hard way, of just how badly he screwed up and how he should have listened to Hyne, was some seriously great acting. The chewing out that Hyne is going to give him is going to be something else. If Andor can keep up this level of quality the whole way through then it is going to be a masterpiece.

Would be interested to see this video updated based on the season finale!

“There comes a time when the risk of doing nothing becomes the greatest risk of all” where have I heard that before?

@travus111

Жыл бұрын

Where from?

@jeremychicken3339

Жыл бұрын

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

Sounds almost like an extremified example of the problems we have with Police in the States.

He is almost like Thomas Theisman in the honorverse

'If he was born a few decades earlier, he might have genuinely done some good to the galaxy under the galactic republic.' Or he would be with an even more corrupt boss in an even more inefficient regime. The corruption and inefficiency of the Galactic Republic were one of the main reasons why separatism in the Outer and Mid Rim was so huge. While I think he would still be the same good officer that would be trying to do good wherever he went. Not much would have changed.

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

People seem to forget that the Galactic Empire didn't poof into existence out of nowhere.

@stephenwood6663

Жыл бұрын

I was just thinking about how Karn's vigorous approach is actually quite similar to what we've seen of the Commerce Guild's Punitive Security Forces, who deployed spider droids onto the streets of Korriban, ostensibly for the protection of Guild workers there. Preox Morlana feels a lot like the corporations which would go on to found the Conferedacy of Independent Systems, although - precisely because of what those corporations did - Preox Morlana suffers from a much shorter leash. The Commerce Guild's deployment of armed force on Korriban wasn't exactly legal under Republic law, but their sway over certain senators was sufficient that they were able to, ah, make it legal.

I've never had much sympathy for Syril, he's a devoted company man who holds these institutions in a higher regard than he does the lives of innocents. He lost his humanity long before the show starts.

"Have things gotten better? Since the revolution?" - Nice line from the Mandalorian.

@TheSuperRatt

Жыл бұрын

For a lot of people? Yes. Absolutely. For others? Not so much. But then, people living on the outer rim haven't much had their lives changed by either the Empire or the New Republic.

this is why i love legends. its far more diverse in the main factions far more grey, words and titles have meaning. for example stormtrooper aka shock trooper, elite trained infantry specializing in breakthrough assaults and are far more accurate, intelligent but still at the end of the day human. in the books stormtroopers are not as common and when they are usually only plot armor or the force saves the rebels, or they curb stomp the rebels. look at tantive 4. 6 down stormtroopers 18 dead rebels in a tight corridor with no element of surprise and no immediate fire superiority

Big fan of the channel. Hope you get to the X universe some day. Keep up the amazing work 👏

Dude reminds me of Lt. Gormley from Aliens.

Love your videos! I was wondering if you guys might be able to do a video on the separatist from starwars. I noticed you guys had all the other major factions.

"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead." - Grand Admiral Thrawn

@user-xsn5ozskwg

Жыл бұрын

It's a nice sentiment by Thrawn but the Empire under Palpatine did exist to do harm. That's literally what the sith do.

@cynicat74

Жыл бұрын

@@user-xsn5ozskwg Not really. The Sith originally set out to pursue forbidden knowledge, only to become corrupted by their power, as many real life dictators have before. Saying they just go out to hurt people is some cartoon-grade villainy.

@user-xsn5ozskwg

Жыл бұрын

@@cynicat74 They originally set out to pursue power, and in almost every case (I'm sure there's some fringe EU stuff that says otherwise) they'd use that power to harm people. Even sith like Plagueis and Sidious who were *technically* pursuing knowledge regarding immortality did so to extend their rules and ambitions. They were not corrupted in pursuit of these things, they pursued them because they were corrupt.

@cynicat74

Жыл бұрын

@@user-xsn5ozskwg Again, the Sith never set out to just hurt people, except for maybe Darth Sion. None of the schisms were about just seizing power. You completely ignored my comment about the corruption of power twisting them into malice. See the Lucifer Project to understand what I'm talking about. Darth Sidious is also one of the most evil Sith in both canon, and legends, as well as one of the most power-hungry. You using him as an example says a lot.

@user-xsn5ozskwg

Жыл бұрын

​@@cynicat74 So the slave labour and assassinations and general harm one to the galaxy under the Sith Empire were just neutral events, then? Acceptable crimes done by otherwise decent people? The sentiment "power corrupts" is one that puts the onus of wrongdoing on the idea of power itself, but both in real life and in fiction we know it's not true because there are good people with power. Power, and the pursuit of it, rather reveals, and in the case of the sith specifically (not necessarily the dark side, but the sith in all their iterations) those who seek to join or obtain that power tend to regard the lives of others as trivial, worthy of little more than fodder to their cause. Sidious is the example I pointed towards because he is the sith paradigm, and importantly the reason behind the Empire's ambitions and existence. His desire was to shape an empire modeled after the sith empire of old, using purges, slavery, and whatever other means necessary to secure his power. To live under the Empire, whether Galactic or Sith, meant that whether or not you were aware as an average citizen your life, your family, your planet, was very much considered disposable for whatever reason the sith may have.

Thanks!

This guy is gonna join the empire just to hunt down Andor which will end badly won’t it?

While I've not had the most frist hand experience with Mara Jade and yes she dose join the new Republic. I'd say she also displayed good and noble qualities during her time as the emperor's hand and unlike many of her peers she was at least self aware and intelligent enough to be aware of the empires flaws.

Excellent analysis. It should be interesting to see where his character arc ends up. Maybe he'll end up with the actual Imperial Security and stay with them to the bitter end.

This is probably one of the most interesting character studies you guys have done, good stuff

Hard to be sympathetic to a psychopath who even goes so far as to stalk an icy ISB agent, an offense that would have been worthy of a life sentence in the spice mines of Kessel...

I love how they didn't give him a convincing rallying movie style speech to fire up his men, it reflects a real life junior officer/nco, someone who wants to do good but the salty subordinates being tuned out but alert to their sergeant their "real" leader. The fact that he also has a competent and loyal Sgt/right hand man helps to establish that like in real life no one is a natural born leader and always needs an experienced individual to teach them. I hope they don't put him on the cliched path of disillusioned imperial to rebel.

It seems that Karn is more concerned with advancing his career than with any pursuit of justice. He sees apprehending Andor as a way to get ahead and not out of any sense of right or wrong. I don't know how he got to be an officer in Pre Mor security because he seemed to be inexperienced and new to field operations. It also looked like he didn't really care about the officers who were killed in the fiasco, He was more shocked that Andor got away. I also see a lot of similarities between Pre Mor and police in America, they were there to serve corporate interests, not the community. It was obvious that the people of Ferrix did not appreciate them being there. Men like Syril Karn are not trying to do good in the galaxy despite the fascist system, he is the type of person who helps perpetuate the fascist system as long as he can get what he wants out of it. His tragedy will be when he realizes that the fascist system will sacrifice him when the need arises. All that said, Syril Karn is an interesting character and I can't wait to see where the story takes him.

I think Syril Karn is a very interesting character. Hope that future episodes explore his character arc. He reminds me of Agent Kallus from Star Wars Rebels who started off as a villain before defecting to the Rebellion.

I wonder if Syril Karn will strike up a friendship and comradery with Dedra Meero of the ISB.

@ronkolek613

Жыл бұрын

I’d imagine she’d look at him like you would look at something your scrape off your boot.

Can we please give the actor of Syril Karn an Oscar just for his facial expressions alone? On the surface, it's the perfect emotionless, stoic, in-control demeanor that we're pretty much used to by so many "strong" characters nowadays. But then it slips. Ever so slightly, it slips, revealing a man that is *terrified* and desparately tries to keep up the *facade* of being in control. And the worst part is that one can very much empathize with him. Hunting down Andor wasn't a javeresque act of lawful vengeance, but it also wasn't done to keep up the believe that he mattered to the system and that in the case of his own death, people would bring his killer to justice, too. Like in his stiff demeanor, I see in this actions a man grasping for control, to do *something* to make him feel like he has still a measure of control over his life. Like people stockpiling toilet paper during a pandemic, Syril Karn cannot do anything about the Empire encroaching on corporations, on colleagures slacking on the job or on superiors demanding from him to lie in order to sweep things under the rug. He's just a small man in too big of a world. But he can bring one man to justice. That's what he can do. And he goes after Andor with all the vitriol and impotent determination that he wishes he could bring to all the things that will forever remain out of his grasp.

I would like to see Imperial military forces that act competently against evil as much as I want to see Rebels taking on the Empire. Seeing a group of Stormtroopers killing pirates, saving hostages, and being heroes to a community shows why people supported it as much as fear. There is a reason the common man joined, not just from fear, but from loyalty and the belief it does good. If they have the people evolve after seeing a corrupt act, good, just show that they joined to do good then eventually rejected the evil they had realized they were a part of.

@ramblinnernd5905

Жыл бұрын

This

Even if he was born during the republic era, the same administrative corruption existed that would see his colleagues deaths swept under the rug. Not saying the empire was better than the republic but they both have corruption issues like this so no matter what he was kinda fucked if he was born in the republic or empire era.

@Lobsterwithinternet

Жыл бұрын

Especially since this was in the corporate sector where companies had de facto power over everything.

@stephenwood6663

Жыл бұрын

@@Lobsterwithinternet I dunno, I could easily see a man like Karn as part of the Commerce Guild's Punitive Security Forces. When they deployed spider droids onto the streets of Korriban, it was ostensibly for the protection of Guild workers there. Although the Commerce Guild was certainly corrupt in its own way, on the ground level, its security forces seem to have been vigorous in the pursuit of their mandate.

Nice work

Hey Templin, sorry for the late comment. I wanted to say that if you're looking for more like this, I recommend the YA book "Star Wars: Lost Stars" by Claudia Grey. It goes heavily into the kind of character explorations expressed here. The story is about two people from a rimward planet who were children when the Clone Wars ended. The Empire was taking a victory-lap around the galaxy and were greeted as saviors, with people looking forward to a bright future. The two kids, themselves from different "sides of the tracks" on their world, vowed to get into the Imperial Academy together and so they did. It follows their careers up past the end of Return of the Jedi. For example, one of the two lead characters is from group on their world that's very spiritual and places great value on loyalty and vow keeping. She's extremely driven and an extremely honorable person who considers her word binding, strives to be excellent and true, and quietly prays for the Force to watch over the vulnerable. The Empire exploits her honor ruthlessly, and as much as she might inwardly balk at some of the Empire's actions, she becomes good at rationalization. Even the destruction of Alderaan she sees as a tragic necessity to halt future bloodshed... which even more tragically failed to have the intended effect. It was only at the Battle of Endor that she finally lost faith in the Empire when it became apparent that the Emperor prioritized the drama of the battle for his own whims instead of sound tactics that would have saved many more lives. Another of her comrades was an Imperial officer from Alderaan, who after Alderaan's destruction became FANATICALLY loyal to the Empire. He was a charming man and a decent officer, and saw with his own eyes as his homeworld was destroyed by the very station he served on. It was a horrific shock, and yet... he felt that if he were to falter in his loyalty to the Empire now, his homeworld would have been destroyed for nothing, and that was a possibility so terrible he couldn't bring himself to face it. In any case, I think you'd enjoy it.

NOW THAT WAS QUALITY

Well maybe there is another like Syril Karn. In star wars Rebels, there is: Lieutenant. Yogar Lyste he have a chip on his shoulder about his rank. But still he more or less only want to do his job...still did not end well for him.

I absolutely love this video

Even in real life, you can be the most idealistic person in your collage or university, but once you graduate and parent stop playing for your expense. Reality slap you, you most likely to accept and compromise with it