My instant response to any atheist who starts rattling off bad behavior is: “What’s wrong with rape? What’s wrong with child abuse?” Any atheist making moral complaints has lost the debate before it started.

@kristenspencer9751

9 ай бұрын

Yup, you can prove God w/o the Bible with those questions.

Thank you White for your work in debunking Leighton’s endless and repeated complaints against Calvinism and other branches of Protestantism. The truth you are setting forth is immeasurable, Holy and sets the captive free from false ideologies. To God be the Glory alone.

@apilkey

4 жыл бұрын

There is no truth he’s setting forth. Nearly threw up when I read your comment...

@pateunuchity884

3 жыл бұрын

@Aaron Pilkey Awe, Aaron such delicate sensibilities. You can handle a counter perspective?

@bryson750

2 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey don't go down their rabbit hole. They're so far gone from a credible community of philosophy and debate

@apilkey

2 жыл бұрын

@@pateunuchity884 I can handle different perspectives but need to expose them as satanic when they are.

@pateunuchity884

2 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey What qualifies Calvinism as Satanic besides your issues with determinism?

Thank you Dr White for pointing out that Flowers argues like an atheist. Flowers and Austin Fisher argue just like atheists when they object to double predestination or people predestined to hell. Both asks the question: How is God recognizably good if he predestines people to hell? That objection is the same objection atheists make concerning theodicy. One can use the same argument against provisionist when it comes to theodicy. How is God recognizably good for all the evil and suffering in this world? Flowers is digging his own grave.

@4jchan

10 ай бұрын

It makes perfect sense. Atheists use the problem evil as an argument to prove that an omni benevolent God doesn't exist. Flowers is doing the same thing. Can you not see that? For God to chose allow evil and suffering is just as deterministic.

@CBALLEN

Ай бұрын

Flowers is an atheist concerning the God of the Bible. Flowers and all like him ,are the same people that wanted a golden calf to call Yaweh, they are the men of Roman's 9:19,they are the Disciples who left Jesus in John 6:66,they are those who finally here,DEPART, I NEVER KNEW YOU!

I'm not sure if the following analogy is theologically sound, but whenever i, (being a monergist), have been confronted with the attempt by someone (a creature) to subjectively judge or even indict God (the Creator) of unrighteousness, i ask the following question to hopefully bring clarity to the understanding of the difference of God's decreed will and His moral will. "Would you call Agatha Christie a serial murderer?" The point I am making is: Within the creation of her stories, there are many murders, and she, being the creator of those plots and characters, has decreed them when she pens the final drafts. Yet, her sense of justice is declared within these works when a solution is provided and the murderers receive justice. Certainly we can see that the author has a moral will within the story that upholds what is right and just, and at the same time the murders and evil contained within have a purpose to reveal and demonstrate the author's sense of righteousness and justice that contrasts the evil deeds. Admittedly, this analogy may not be perfect, but it may help to understand the transcendence of His sovereign decreed will. Soli Deo Gloria.

@silaschambers7413

2 жыл бұрын

I get your point, but it is disanalguous because Agathas Cristies writings are things that occur in a fictional world whereas what God decrees occurs in the real world. It's just a poor analogy to use for your argument Edit: just wanted to add, calvinism is quite confusing with all the different lapsarian views and such. I considered it for a while, have watched both Whites and Leightons videos, and Leighton honestly just makes more sense. Pretty sure I'm gonna become a provisionist

@JS-nr7te

Жыл бұрын

That's actually a good illustration I think. God is the author of future, past,and present and His justice is already established because he's willed it so.

Great Channel! Thanks for putting in the work

That was painful to hear. It was good to hear your comments as a sort of polished echo of my own knee jerk response going along. Thanks for your teaching.

12:15 "He does allow the expression of our evil hearts in a limited fashion"...James White. Whenever these HyperCalvinists are forced to talk about and explain HOW the decree and secondary causes actually work,...they always have to use language that denies their premise...like "allow". There is no such thing as allowance if God is causally determining it as they say.

@spacemanspliff7844

2 ай бұрын

I agree that pulling punches here is absurd. Read Acts 2:23 - God predetermined Christ death by hands of LAWLESS men. In other words, it was not merely allowing, but determining.

Thank You Dr. White for bringing up the scripture that God works out all things to the praise and glory of his most holy name. Rather it be evil or good. I was once told in Bible college that even evil at its worse will in the final end of all things bring praise and glory to the God of Heaven. So, all these people who bring these questions concerning the person and nature of God and what he allows and what he forbids always amazes me. We as Human Beings has a fallen and depraved nature and with these Natures God the Father receives honor and glory whether we know it or not and whether it be of Evil intent or of good. You Dr. White so stated the word ALL MEANING JUST THAT ALL NOT SOME OR A LITTLE ALL THINGS AND THAT IS WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE IN FREE-WILL. WE ARE ALL ON A MISSION FROM THE FATHER WHETHER WE ARE SAVED OR NOT. BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED BY THE FATHER WILL FOR OUR COURSE IN PHYSICAL LIFE ACCORDING TO HIS MERCIES AND NOT ACCORDING TO OUR DESIRES. AND THAT IS WHY EVEN THE EVIL AT ITS DARKEST WILL BRING GLORY TO THE FATHER IN THE END. MARANATHA

I wish someone could get this video to that young gentleman who was trying to teach the truth he just didn't fully understand how to argue it. I think that this is the kind of stuff that drives people away from Calvinism in the beginning because they come across questions like this and don't fully understand them. It takes a lot of time and work and like James White said it really helps to read people like Edwards and people of the Reformation say on these topics. Where do you think my boy James White learned it all lol. Love you James

Could you do a response to Dr. Heiser's position on election? He wrote the unseen realm

Could someone direct me to a resource, perhaps a video that could help me understand primary and secondary causes as it relates to God‘s will and the will of man? I want to get more into that! Thank you in advance!

@heartofalegend

Жыл бұрын

This is a great channel and this discussion was very helpful to me on this exact subject: kzread.info/dash/bejne/omSBmdh-Z6enYMY.html Let me know if it was helpful to you.🙂

I just listened to this again for the first time, and I realized that James White has not reconciled the fact that sinful man did not individually choose to be born in Adam, nor did we choose to inherit our sin nature. While it is obviously clear that man is in his fallen state sinful by nature. It is also true that the divine decree has placed man in this sinful condition and not our own INDIVIDUAL choice. [Rom 11:32 NKJV] 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. [Rom 3:9 NKJV] 9 What then? Are we better [than they]? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. [Gal 3:22 NKJV] 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

There is no meaning to creation apart from God. Autonomous, indifference of the will is a myth. Submit to the wisdom of the Lord.

@gustavmahler1466

4 жыл бұрын

Why does God force people to do evil?

@pateunuchity884

4 жыл бұрын

@Jordan Singer Because humans are inherently good? How is man forced or tempted to evil when fallenness is his natural disposition?

I have the works of Jonathan Edwards too, the print is so small I better read them while I'm still young lol

We are sheep among wolves. Called out to overcome the world, flesh, and devil through violent spiritual warfare. God honors victorious warriors. He is our Master and Model. Apparently it takes this evil world to produce eternal saints for His eternal Glory. Few lives matter. If you are damned it doesn't matter what you did you're in hell. Few lives are agape lives are holy lives are eternal lives.

The thing that exposes the freewillers whole freewill scheme is,God's many examples of Him stopping men from committing sins they most want to commit.This proves God is in control of all men and could stop EVERY SIN if that was His plan.This also shows that man has no freewill ,he can only Do what God has decreed hed do because if man can't do all the sin he wants to do,hes not free at all.THE HEART OF MAN MAKES ITS PLANS,BUT GOD DECIDES WHAT he Does. Who can say it and it come to pass unless the Lord has decreed it?

Leighton story time Flowers .

Atheist,Arminian,whats the difference?

so God decides who will decide who goes to hell on his own. the individual has no part. same with who is saved.

Joshua says, "Choose you this day whom you will serve." Notice God didn't decide, He gives people a choice. If there was no choice, why would he say, "Choose..?" Also in Joshua God says, "The people built the high places to sacrifice their children in fire. Something I did NOT command, nor did I speak it, nor did it ener my mind." So while God does decrees some thing, He, Himself says, not everything.

@danielomitted1867

3 ай бұрын

Romans 11:4 "But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” notice God decided

@iggyantioch

3 ай бұрын

Opposing scriptures. Then the Church decides. Pick the correct one

@MB777-qr2xv

3 ай бұрын

@@danielomitted1867 I never said God was not sovereign nor did I say God never decides or ordains certain things, I just said according to scripture He does NOT decide or ordain, or cause EVERYTHING. Do a word search and see how many times the word choose or choice is in the Bible. It can't get any clearer than Joshua 19:5 where God speaks of the people sacrificing their children to idols, and then says, "...I did NOT command this nor did I speak it, nor did it enter my mind." So, if you give me scriptures of God deciding, ordaining, or causing things, I will say, "Praise the Lord." But according to scripture, God in His sovereignty, by HIS choice, has given man enough free will to CHOOSE to accept or reject God's ONLY pardon for sin; Christ dying on the cross.

@danielomitted1867

3 ай бұрын

@@MB777-qr2xv and I never said you never said God was not sovereign. Yet Romans 1 says man already knows God is but exchanges the truth of God for a lie. The bible consistently tells us when man chooses from his own nature, he rejects God. John 6:29, it is the work of God that you believe. Ephesians 1:11 God is working all things after the council of his will. "Well the bible says choose!" Yeah that refutes nothing I believe. Unless you're trying to use Joshua 19:5 to say "God didn't know this would happen" then you have no argument there.

@MB777-qr2xv

3 ай бұрын

​@@danielomitted1867You believe what you want, but God says in Joshua 19:5 that concerning the people building the high places to sacrifice their children to idols, "...I did NOT COMMAND it, nor did I speak it..." I'm just quoting the Biblical verse, I am NOT telling you what it means: I don't have to, it's pretty obvious.

Can James White or any Calvinist explain the story of God, Adam and Eve, and the snake, from a Calvinist perspective?

Can you help me understanding how decreeing isn’t the same as God tempting someone?

@oracleoftroy

4 жыл бұрын

I can try. First lets consider the basic definition of the word: From Merriam-Webster Noun sense 1) an order usually having the force of law Noun sense 2a) a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head Noun sense 2b) a foreordaining will Verb sense 1) to command or enjoin by or as if by decree Verb sense 2) to determine or order judicially Noun sense 2 was defined using forms of the word 'Ordain' and that word is often used in the same context, so lets define that as well: transitive verb sense 1) to invest (see INVEST entry 2 sense 1) officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority transitive verb sense 2a) to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law intransitive verb) to issue an order Right away we see that 'decree' and 'ordain' have nothing to do with the philosophical notion of some sort of exhaustive meticulous determinism, but are rather legal terms. I imagine a king who wants a bridge built. What happens? Does the king meticulously determine the construction of the bridge by writing up blueprints and grabbing tools and materials to build it himself? No. The king will issue a decree to have a bridge built and authorize money from the treasury or taxes to go towards the project. He might also ordain someone to oversee the project, and in doing, grants the person authority to acquire materials and labor and see to the bridge's construction. Here the ordination establishes the freedom for this official to act to complete the task. Of course it isn't carte blanche for the official to embezzle funds or otherwise act in ways outside the king's will, and should he abuse his power, the king will judge him. Tying it to Calvinism, when our confessions say things like (WCF 3.1) God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, it is a kingly statement about God's plan for creation, including redemption of fallen creatures through the death and Resurrection of Jesus. To have a redemption, he also decrees a fall, yet this, like the king, is not God directly manipulating man to force the output he wants, but rather establishing the authority that others might carry out the decree. That is why the Westminster Confession can go on to say that this decree of God over whatsoever comes to pass establishes man's free will and the liberty or contingency of second causes, all while not making God the author of sin as man acts on his own will to sin. I think we see in creation how this works. God created male and female with mouths to eat and hands to reach for food, along with hears to hear and brains to understand his commands not to eat of one particular tree God created. There was nothing forcing them to eat it, there were plenty of other trees to eat from, and God commanded them not to, yet humans choose to use the very good things God gave them that enabled them to reach for that fruit and eat, knowingly violating his law.

@shnobo9471

4 жыл бұрын

oracleoftroy I see and God restraining us from every sinful passion as well. Your explanation helps a lot. I believe ever since the fall our will is bound to sin and that is our desire but, your explanation helps me understand that if it wasn’t for God restraining our evil desires we would be doing much more evil. So it wasn’t so much that God caused a woman to be raped in as much God decreed that Christ would come through that bloodline and we as humans choosing to sin as that is our disposition did the horrendous act which was bad but, God used for good just as Joseph in Genesis being sold into slavery?

@apilkey

4 жыл бұрын

oracleoftroy your analogy holds zero weight against the Word of God and falls to the ground in light of the scriptures. What you presented is not analogous at all. If it were to be analogous to what you actually believe then you would not only say that the king decreed the building of the bridge and ordained someone to oversee it, but that he also did in fact decree EVERYTHING in the building of the bridge itself. That’s what the confession you mentioned states. It’s not just the decreeing of the bridge or ordaining it’s the ordaining of EVERYTHING that comes to pass. Everything. Every thought and action of the bridge builders. Everything.

@oracleoftroy

4 жыл бұрын

@@shnobo9471 Sorry, I never saw a notification for your reply, but I think Joseph is a great example. In Gen 50: 20, he explicitly and equally credits both his brothers and God for selling him into slavery. They were equally true, yet Joseph also notes a moral difference, the brothers did it for evil reasons and God did it for good purpose.

@oracleoftroy

4 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey Ok, could you help me understand why a king is not analogous to the king of kings so I can improve my post? God being a king comes directly from the Bible, so it is hard to reconcile your complaint without elaboration. Yes, God decrees everything that comes to pass, and that is different from micromanaging everything that come to pass. The king's decree to build a bridge includes the overseers buying of nails even though the decree said nothing about buying nails. So too does God decree establish the liberty and contingency of second causes according to the confession. The king's decree gave the overseer liberty to purchase supplies and to choose a contingent detail like nails vs screws, and that authority is all established by the king's decree.

That is why dynamic omniscience is the biblical truth for a consistent theodicy! And it fits well with the main points of Provisionism! Finding verses of men's decrees is easy... finding just one clear verse that uses the word "decree" for the man-made theological idea that everything was eternally immutably predestined before creation to work out only one way - is impossible! Calvinism, Arminianism and Molinism all teach such a decree was made. I'm offering $100 to the first who finds just one! 😉 And yet so many are willing to loyally follow a theology based on that man-made falsehood! Very sad! It has corrupted the rest of their interpretation of Scripture, their motivation for evangelism, their confidence in prayer, and their attempt to worship God for His holiness, imo. There are many verses that clearly contradict such determinism, showing clearly God making more determinations after creation. So, they all could not have been made before creation and God's Word be telling the truth!

All men are commanded to follow Gods word,all are commanded to repent and believe. This is what all men,everywhere are commanded to do and when men disobey,its because they want to disobey.So,don't worry about the secret things of God, do what He says.Thats the Bottom line.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The only thing I can say about my reformed Brothers is,why do you call these people Brothers when they still hate our God and Gospel? Im not saying that they aren't Elect, but according to scripture, those who hate God and teach others to Hate Our God ,these are still natural men.Where am I wrong?

Saying that either God decrees it or it has no meaning, is a false dichotomy. An event can also have meaning if God allowed it to happen as part of His plan, which also explains how God can use the acts of evil people to accomplish His purpose, and still be just in punishing them. So it is not necessary for God to be the cause of an event, in order for Him to have a purpose in that event. To me, that's a powerful example of His sovereignty. Underlying a lot of Dr. Whites arguments on this topic seems to be the belief that an event cannot have meaning unless God causes it directly by way of decree, which is a philosophical assertion that isn't necessarily true or proven. It's just an assertion he makes that I haven't heard him defend.

@Mind_of_MATT

2 жыл бұрын

I think what he means is (and I could be wrong) that God has a purpose & a plan, working that plan out right now in time. So everything that happens has meaning & purpose. Whether it be Joseph, his brothers selling him into slavery, Christ crucified on a cross then rising from the dead. All acts, even evil acts are controlled by God. God, who knows all things, controls all things, works all things according to the counsel of his will.

@danielomitted1867

2 жыл бұрын

I have two questions to this. Is the future real and if so where does it come from? You people act las though the future something that exists outside of God and he doesnt have any real control over it, its man that ultimately determines it. God can only do with it what man allows him to. When the reality is the future exists because God created it, he decreed it. He doesnt just know it. So when something evil happens, God is not taking joy in it but he has a purpose behind it and will make good come from it. Hes not just hoping he can do something with it because its something he never really had any control over.

@BlueWambat

2 жыл бұрын

@Daniel Omitted 1) What do you mean by "you people" since you don't know anything about me? 2) Please clarify what you mean by your question of the future being "real"

@danielomitted1867

2 жыл бұрын

@@BlueWambat people who carry your type of rhetoric. Does the future exist? Is it a certainty? Can it be changed?

@BlueWambat

2 жыл бұрын

@Daniel Omitted I believe the future is known perfectly by God and He is not wrong about it. How does that work? I don't exactly know and neither does anyone else. My entire goal in my original comment is to discourage the establishment of false dichotomies in our conversations.

Something that is prophesied about a multititude of times in scripture is not Gods secret will... Christs crucifixion was not a secret decree when it is foretold over and again. The " secret" in the supposed "secret decree" is always the same thing...how God remains holy while ordaining evil..that is a question regarding theodocy, and "secret decree" assumes God as the first cause of evil. This thinking always leaves a question about Gods holy name in the mind.

Apparently Gods secret will just loves breaking Gods law...in fact thats all it ever does....absurd

I seriously doubt the value of discussing these secondary questions with unbelievers, especially when they refuse to adequately address the foundational question of creation ex-nihilo.

9:45

Dr White...where are the prophecies about particular acts of rape being necessary for the coming of the Messiah??

@ReformedSooner24

10 ай бұрын

not every last step was prophecied. just like Ruth marrying Boaz wasnt prophesied. the adultry of David wasnt prophesied either. yet it still happened, David still bore the blame and the guilt, and this is where most people ask the Romans 9 question about who can resist his will, to which the Apostle Paul replies “who are you O man to anwser back to God?”

@davidxinidakis4119

10 ай бұрын

@@ReformedSooner24 ?? What? That is absurd what youre saying. And it is a horrible interpretation of Romans 9. David committed adultery. Then u juxtapose Romans 9 and say " who can resist His will?"...are u like serious? What is wrong with you? Were u smoking out during Hermenutics class?...brother u should seriously consider that type of thinking. It makes all sin Gods will that cant be resisted by decree. It is manifestly absurd. And it utterly contradicts the Lords prayer. The Lords prayer would be utterly nonsensical if God is decreeing every dust mote of sin and evil. Because when we pray " your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" that would be a prayer against the decree of God that all evil be...making it a prayer that could never be answered let alone make sense..

13:34"is the coming of the Messiah part of Gods decree? Well most definitely, it is,and it could only come in one way"..-James White So youre saying acts of rape were a necessary part of Gods decree for the Messiah to come...as if there were no way apart from rape that Christ would come. Absurd.

@ShaneChiswick

6 ай бұрын

I thought the same thing.

My, oh my (18:00+). So, the "intentions of the heart" which stems forth as "secondary causes" are that which God judges? My question to this man: Does God instill into men as the "primary cause" those evil intentions which necessarily issue forth as "secondary causes"? Yes or no. If no, how does man come to find himself with these desires? This stuff is so simple.

@apilkey

4 жыл бұрын

Very good point. Keep contending for the faith brother 🙏

@bryanpratt5850

2 жыл бұрын

We inherited a sin nature because of Adam's fall.

@bryanpratt5850

10 ай бұрын

@@TNOne-dq1ps federal headship, original sin, and double imputation. To say that something cannot be true because it doesn’t makes sense, means that you’ve made your logical understand and or perhaps your feelings also, to be your ultimate authority for what is true. God’s Word is truth. If God’s Word says it, that settles it. Your question ought to be rather where in the Bible does it say that, such and so. Anyways hope that helps. Also keep in mind that Atheists think it is irrational to believe in God. 1Corinthians 1:18-21 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 ¶ Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

@bryanpratt5850

10 ай бұрын

@@TNOne-dq1ps if you want to talk about scriptural interpretation, that is called hermeneutics. The two main ways to interpret is to exegete and eisegete. One means to read out of and the other means to read into. Let scripture interpret scripture. Just because people have different views, and interpretations, that doesn’t mean all views and interpretations are incorrect. Do you believe in God? You are sounding like an Atheist.

@bryanpratt5850

10 ай бұрын

@@TNOne-dq1pson any given issue, God, original sin, and the the gospel for example, does it not seem more proper to ask, what does the Bible say on this issue, rather than what do the saints later on say about this issue? I agree that the church is important and that there has always been a body of believers, however when anyone, no matter how prominent differs from what God says in His Word, we are to outright and wholeheartedly reject what anyone says that contradicts God’s infallible Word. You make it sound like it is impossible to know what God says on any given issue. All we have to do is read it and believe it. “Jesus wept.” To say that we cannot understand that clear verse, without the later saints that Trumps anything we read in the Bible does not show very much trust in the God whose Word the Holy Bible is. I’m not trying to say you are saying something that you’re not but think about the implications. We are to not reject the long line of faithful men who clearly taught on the authority of God’s Word, as faulty and fallible those men were, God knows who are included in that multitude which no man can number who are the elect. There is a visible church which makes up all those who are visibly United to the church, make a credible profession of faith, go to church etc. but on the other hand, there is the visible church which make up all the elect who ever has lived, is now living or will yet live who have been saved, are being saved, or who will yet be saved. All of the elect will be saved. It is impossible for one of the elect to be lost. We may differ on this issue, but this is the invisible church. God gave His Word to us. Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. 2Timothy 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 ¶ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Psalm 68:11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.

Leighton either has to call Calvinists heretics and out of the faith or he needs to stop dedicating his every waking moment causing division among the saints. You can't have it both ways! The world mocks and scorns, and Leighton contributes to it.

With Calvinism man has no free will and therefore makes God evil because he's making us do those things.

Dr. White is creating a straw man argument and not representing Dr. Flower's position accurately. Dr. Flowers argues frequently that God works within creation to bring about salvation through a sinful people; evil is not meaningless in this sense. I am not saying that Dr. White is wrong and I am not saying that Dr. Flowers is right. I am saying that this is a manipulative presentation of the facts. I encourage you all to get your information first-hand. One of the hardest things in the world is to represent your opponent's argument in its strongest, rather than weakest form.

This guy in the vid "Reformed Christian Apologist" got absolutely humiliated by Drake Shelton on the topic of the trinity. It was brutal

U believe God created some just to torment them. Don't hide from that, for his glory. If that's not evil I don't know what is

JW tries to throw shade on LF at 0800 and on by saying that LF doesn't believe that God has purpose for evil that is merely foreknown and allowed, which is blatantly false. This is of course his go to when the [ill]logic and EVIL of the Reformed view is exposed under the microscope. Regarding a book to read, how about JW read Plantinga's chapter in Nature and Necessity regarding free will and moral evil. He makes the case that JW needs to deal with if he has trouble with the very notion of God merely permitting evil.

The most pressing question to ask JW is: does God decree what man will desire and therefore actuate at any given moment in his life? Or does God in some sense merely foreknow, before decreeing what will occur according to his free knowledge, what man will choose to desire and therefore will in his whole life? I can guarantee you he will not admit to the first and will reject his ONLY other option in the second choice. So, he has no leg to stand on and his platform for this whole theory of decrees (secret/revealed wills) is deficient and more to the point wrong.

@JS-nr7te

Жыл бұрын

Man has no free will. His will is enslaved to sin. God's will is the free will. The problem is that your idea of God is so small. He owes us nothing, if He wanted to kill all of us He is well within His right. You sincerely want to try and rescue God from the problem of evil but you can't use the your own sense of morality against him by judging his actions. He's the one who gave US the law. He is sovereign and decides what we should and shouldn't do what we can and can't do. Not the other way around. GOD IS SOVEREIGN and not subject to anything outside of Himself. He can literally disobey physics if he chooses because he created physics. He has authored time and is the source of everything.

I was (for a day) one of his channel subscribers, but was put off by his inconsistent and belligerent attitude towards the truth.

1 You forgot to mention that God is the determination of every person’s desires. 2 God determines everything so that He can work everything together for good. However, God’s power is more than able to accomplish all the good without being the ultimate case of evil. God is powerful enough to create a perfect world without sin. 3 You don’t have to believe in determinism in order believe in a purpose of evil. You can know that God knows and has power over everything without being the ultimate determining of everything. 4 Should we pray for God to do other than what he has determined.

@oracleoftroy

7 ай бұрын

1. He's not Leighton's strawman of a Calvinist, he is a historical confessionally Reformed Baptist Calvinist. 2. God is powerful enough, yet he didn't do it. He either had a purpose in intentionally allowing sin or he messed up somehow. 3. Define determines? How can God make anything if he can't determine? I think you are misusing "determines" as a stand-in for fatalism. 4. I think we should boldly go to God with all our worries and concerns and anger and frustrations and anything else. I'm not sure what you are asking here. Should we pray that God doesn't send his son? That God not save sinners? That Christ not return? But there are plenty of things God hasn't revealed, so how would you propose we avoid praying against what God determined? And what if God determined that he won't give something unless you pray for it. Is not praying for it or praying for it going against what God determined?

@DanielM-kl3bv

6 ай бұрын

@@oracleoftroy 1 You don't understand "Reformed Theology" if you don't understand that God does determine every single desire according to "Reformed Theology." I am a very straightforward person, and I do my best to remove my emotions from any topic and just accept the facts. Upon studying Calvinism, I found that there is a claim that people are responsible, but this is not a substantiated claim. One of the reasons I am not a Calvinist is because I can't reconcile the claims of Calvinism with the many clear passages of Scripture (that, if read by themselves without presuppositions), teach human choice. I understand that there are attempts to reconcile this issue, like saying that God has a prescriptive will and a decretal will, but this is extra-biblical, not Scriptural. Also, to be clear, when I say that people are responsible, I mean that they are punished because they had a choice between viable options. I can punish my 2-month-old child for not cleaning his room, but he is not responsible for doing so because he cannot clean his room. The best and most honest answer that Calvinists give for responsibility is, "It's a mystery." Scripture does not afford this response, and this also gives people the liberty to believe in whatever they want to believe in. If you don't have an answer to the problem, appeal to mystery. Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may DO all the words of this law." 2 Notice you're inconsistency. You seem to be trying to advocate in your first response that not everything is determined, and then you turn around and imply that God determines every sin. The Bible is really clear on this one. You have put forth a false dichotomy. Often times stories like Joseph are used to say that God "decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers", but the Scripture says nothing of the sort. Calvinists read into those passages more than what is there. A good rule of thumb is to take the clear teaching of Scripture to understand the difficult passages of Scripture. The bible is clear that God has nothing to do with sin. I have heard no good Calvinist explanation for James 1:13-14. "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." 3 Here is a definition. "We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, -that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence, we maintain that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8) 4 I am highlighting the inconsistency. Please take a look at how you accept a form of free will in your explanation. You imply that someone has the free will to pray and that God will accomplish his determination upon you freely praying, and so one must pray so that the request will be granted. If you want to be consistent, you would only pray if God determined so, and if you don't pray, it's because God determined so. Notice that you must ignore the implications of your system when you urge someone to pray. You must pretend that God doesn't determine everything and that your prayers and efforts will make a difference. I hope you don't read this in a way that you perceive me to be mean-spirited. With kindness in my heart, I have found that Calvinism creates more problems and no good answers to those problems.

@oracleoftroy

5 ай бұрын

@@DanielM-kl3bv_"You don't understand "Reformed Theology" if you don't understand that God does determine every single desire according to "Reformed Theology.""_ Oh? Do you have a source for that? Cause I can cite Westminster Confession 3.1 which says that the way God ordains all that comes to pass is such that he establishes human free will and the liberty and contingency of second causes. That confession is centuries old, yet still used as the Statement of Faith in many Reformed denominations around the world. And it isn't just WCF, you'll find similar claims in the Three Forms of Unity and other Reformed confessions. Your version is the one that is ahistorical and out of line with what Calvinists have always confessed. I'd love to see how you defend your claim with the several witnesses Christ requires of those who love him when they make a charge against another. _"One of the reasons I am not a Calvinist is because I can't reconcile the claims of Calvinism with the many clear passages of Scripture (that, if read by themselves without presuppositions), teach human choice."_ Calvinism teaches human choice. That's the main reason we need a savior in the first place, we make sinful choices. What sources did you study "Calvinism" from? They seem to be bad. _"You seem to be trying to advocate in your first response that not everything is determined, and then you turn around and imply that God determines every sin."_ I would disagree with both of those assertions. You have put forth a false dichotomy. _"Often times stories like Joseph are used to say that God "decreed the evil of Joseph's brothers", but the Scripture says nothing of the sort."_ Gen 50: 20 "You meant it for evil, and God meant it for good." You seem to read that as if one will or the other must be primary and the other secondary, and so you place man's will over God and God has to deal with it, and see the Calvinist as placing God's will over man and man has to put up with it. But that's not the way Calvinists understand this at all, rather both are acting according to their will and both are acting compatibly with each other. At the exact same time man is willing their sin for their own sinful purposes freely according to their nature, God is willing their sin for his own good purposes, and likewise doing so freely according to God's nature. _"The bible is clear that God has nothing to do with sin."_ That's a clear overstep. Do you not believe as the Bible teaches that God at least judges sin? I think we need clam and reasonable discussions rooted in the facts of what Calvinists actually claim, not wild speculation and over the top claims that you would probably reject if you weren't trying to maximize your distance from Godfearing Calvinists. _"I have heard no good Calvinist explanation for James 1:13-14"_ What is unclear about it? God doesn't tempt people. Anticalvinists who falsely claim that God does on Calvinsm are liars and condemned by this passage. Is there something you can cite from the Westminster Confession or Three Forms of Unity that would lead you to think otherwise about Calvinism? _"We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things..."_ Good wording from Calvin's translator. Are you denying that God is King of kings and Lord of lords? And notice how that sort of kingly and magisterial language is used. God works by issuing the same sorts of decrees and ordinances any other ruler does. It doesn't say he micromanages everything, just the opposite in fact, it is by decreeing and ordaining that God rules, not by doing everything himself. Just because the ruler of your country or providence decrees that the max speed limit of some road is X doesn't mean he personally is stepping on the gas pedal when you disobey him and break the law by speeding. The decrees and ordinances are in fact what establish others to enforce the law and carry out the ruler's will. And as WCF 3.1 teaches, human freedom and the liberty and contingency of second causes is establishes by what God ordains. _"I hope you don't read this in a way that you perceive me to be mean-spirited. With kindness in my heart, I have found that Calvinism creates more problems and no good answers to those problems."_ Likewise. I don't mind that you disagree with Calvinism. But it disturbs me that the "Calvinism" you disagree with finds no discernable place in the beliefs actual Reformed Christians have held through the centuries and seems more based on common falsehoods less than credible people continue to spread despite plenty of historic confessions and other sources one could turn to as witnesses for our position.

At 0400 and on, JW's response to the video that plays is that God judges man on the "desires of his heart". Well, sir... since God doesn't foreknow man outside of what he has decreed for that man in his Free Knowledge, those very desires man has are in fact what God puts in his heart by way of his eternal decree. If this be true, and it is under the Reformed paradigm, how then can the man's desires be different, if God, before the man was born, decreed what his desires would be from the moment of birth (conception even) until his very last breath? How can man, under this paradigm, desire differently than how God has, before the foundation of the world, decreed him to? How can man have different desires thereby issuing forth in an obedience to God, therefore pleasing God... if God has forbidden it by way of his inevitable decree? Just referencing Edward's book on the topic without explaining how this CONTRADICTION is resolved doesn't nothing for your argument. Laughable and absurd. Foolish.

@danielomitted1867

Жыл бұрын

Your problem is when considering Gods decree you remove all the depth of what he has decreed and just flatten it out. Gods decrees regarding you are not made apart from you, God uses means. It was Gods choice that you would have your parents, your genetics, your environment etc. All those things that make you, you. Truly he has made you what you are, not simply puppeteering you. Proverbs 20:24 a mans steps are ordained by the Lord, Jeremiah 10:23 the way of a man is not in himself.

*WHY TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS A RED-HERRING* The doctrine of decrees stipulates - WHATSOEVER comes to pass - is what it is - by infallible decree Nature (including man's nature) at any instance in time - is 100% meticulously predestined It cannot be otherwise than what it is - by infallible decree. Accordingly 1) Man's nature is not *FOUND* to be what it is at any instance in time. 2) Man's nature is *MADE* to be what it is at every instance in time - by infallible decree. Therefore: 1) The TRUE determiner of man's fate (or anything concerning man for that matter) is not man's nature. 2) The infallible decree is the TRUE determiner of everything. The current "T" in the TULIP presents a *LITTLE* TRUTH while OBFUSCATING the *CRITICAL* TRUTH.

@douglasmcnay644

Жыл бұрын

Scripture would disagree with your assertion.

@dw6528

Жыл бұрын

@@douglasmcnay644 Douglas: Scripture would disagree with your assertion: DW: Which in cloaked language means - our tradition of interpretation would disagree with your assertion. The question then becomes - to what degree is that tradition of interpretation self-contradicting. :-]

@danielomitted1867

Жыл бұрын

The problem with you people is anytime you consider Gods decree you flatten it out and ignore all the details. God uses means to make man what he is and every man has inherited a fallen nature from Adam. A nature that does not seek God or has understanding, these things must be given from God.

@dw6528

Жыл бұрын

@@danielomitted1867 DW: We understand what "Flatten it out" means. It means to *NOT* treat the doctrine of decrees *AS-IF* it is FALSE! ;-D It means to *NOT* go around DOUBLE-MINDED - speaking DOUBLE-SPEAK :-D

@dw6528

Жыл бұрын

@@danielomitted1867 Daniel: man has inherited a fallen nature from Adam DW: In Calvinism - every nano-second of your nature - and every impulse in your brain - was infallibly FIXED by infallible decree before Adam was created. Your nature cannot be otherwise than what it was decreed to infallibly be before Adam was created. In Calvinism - you can't have an impulse in your brain that you can call your own! John Calvin -quote men can deliberately do *NOTHING* unless he *INSPIRE* it. (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God pg 171-172) John Calvin -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes, 1, 16. 3)

JW talks about a "two dimensional view". His whole platform is two dimensional. He can't think past the Reformed apologetic dichotomy.

@shnobo9471

4 жыл бұрын

I have seen all your comments and the giant red flag that comes to my mind is that in all your argumentation you didn’t go into scripture. If you claim sola fide then why are you so off base on the scriptures?

@apilkey

4 жыл бұрын

Shnobo These men reject the scripture and explain it away with philosophy there’s no point in using scripture. They want philosophical answers to satisfy their philosophical minds. Sadly most reformers you can only convince with philosophy because scripture is not their authority, philosophy is.

@shnobo9471

4 жыл бұрын

Aaron Pilkey most reformers? Do you believe reformed theology is not rooted in scripture?

@apilkey

4 жыл бұрын

Shnobo Reformed theology is rooted in man and lies from satan the great deceiver.

@shnobo9471

4 жыл бұрын

Aaron Pilkey what do you believe? Are you Roman Catholic KJV only Mormon? Many say reformed theology is what you said and I am curious what you believe is the true way. And can you give some particular reformed beliefs that are rooted in man and lies of Satan?

This is cringe worthy. Bless the brother for trying to represent the Lord but geez.....it's painful to listen to.

At 10:29 JW says that the people wrong about God make the case that "God is constantly...sad, frustrated" etc. Well yes James, the BIBLE affirms every thing you just said that you reject and that your opponents affirm. They affirm what the scriptures PLAINLY say; whereas, you stand boldly against such divine words. Instead, you misinterpret proof texts in an effort to prop up your unwarranted notions and philosophical preconceptions of God decreeing the evil intentions of men. Just, wow...

🔴 James White makes the claim that if God has not decreed all things then that must make it purposeless and meaningless? Huh? What if God’s purpose IS that man has freewill and His purpose IS to bring meaning and purpose out of our freewill choices? In reformed theology God is only allowed to have purpose and meaning in things He’s decreed. They won’t let Him have purpose and meaning in giving man freewill. They must restrict and limit and put God in a tiny little man made box that tells Him what He can and cannot do. QUESTION: If God has predestined everything that comes to pass then please explain to me what exactly is God “working together”? Is He “working together” what He’s already decreed is guaranteed to happen anyways? That is foolish and non-sensical. That passage only makes sense of mankind does in fact have freewill.

@pateunuchity884

3 жыл бұрын

Is man inherently good. Does he have a spark of divinity which draws him to God? How does man desire this good if he is fallen and sinful? How are his desires changed in and of himself?

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

Pat Eunuchity ⚡️NEWS FLASH⚡️ *GOD* is the one who has the spark of Divinity that draws man to Himself. Not sure why you think His “spark” is lacking and insufficient and not good enough to draw fallen man.

@pateunuchity884

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey #innerlightmovement

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@pateunuchity884 Jesus Christ is the inner light movement that you reject. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

@pateunuchity884

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey The light walked the Earth and bore witness of the Father and the Kingdom of Heaven. The light is “within” when the Holy Spirit seals you as a child. Everyone does not have this light, sorry.

God doesn't "have foreknowledge of future events" b/c the concept of future events doesn't have any meaning from the Divine Perspective. In the interest of brevity, so as to give expression to realities that are hard to comprehend in human terms, God live in an ever present now. It isn't the future to Him. & most important of all; NO, NO MAN CAN DO GOOD W/O THE GRACE OF GOD. Either all good things are of God or they aren't. Calvinism is simultaneously too big & too small. They narrowly construe the nature of grace as though it has only to do w/ salvation in terms of an expressed, open declaration of conversion to Jesus & simultaneously refuse to see the work of Grace in all of nature. Grace is Go'd's life & His love, out of His love He pours His love into us. He pours it into everything, at every moment & everyplace. We remain ever free to act on that Grace. We can reject entirely or deform our understanding of it by our sinful desires, our egotism. Calvinist reductionism is a pleasant prison for a clever mind. It makes us feel a frisson of delight @ our intellect by turning circles w/in this system of circular reasoning. It is a classical unfalsifiable fallacy. Don't look to French lawyers to get your theology.

@billyr9162

4 жыл бұрын

Is what you just said explained in The Bible? How do you know what it's like from God's perspective?

@NHNEU1111

4 жыл бұрын

Took the words out of my mouth. Site your chapter and verse to explain how God doesn’t have knowledge of future events when he created time itself

@WasLostButNowAmFound

4 жыл бұрын

Even greek lexicons totally rekt your meaning of foreknowledge.

@theologian1456

4 жыл бұрын

When we talk of 'future' events, we are expressing a human concept. One second follows another second. Whether God experiences a past, present and future as we do, is irrelevant. What matters is that 'all things' in 'all moments' are decreed by God unto His glory.

@ryangallmeier6647

4 жыл бұрын

You wrote: "He (God) pours it (grace) into everything, at every moment & everyplace. We remain ever free (you mean 'neutral'; not "free"...this demonstrates that you don't even know what you're talking about with regard to human freedom) to act on that Grace. We can reject entirely or deform our understanding of it by our sinful desires, our egotism." Thank you for demonstrating that you [falsely] believe that the human will is more powerful than the grace of God. This is why the Reformed (and many of our conservative Lutheran friends) will continue to proclaim: _Sola Gratia_(GRACE ALONE!). Whereas, your theology leads you to exalt in your own will (in addition to God's grace) in your own salvation. Thankfully, God's grace actually effectuates that which God intends it to effectuate: the salvation of His people (who were once 'not' His people)...and all to the praise of His glorious, miraculous grace. *Soli Deo Gloria*

So "meaning" justifies decreed evil within the Calvinist construct....

@oracleoftroy

7 ай бұрын

God's decree is why you can sin or breathe or post this comment in the first place. It is what enables anything to happen. Nothing happens that is outside of God and outside of God's creation. God "decreeing" evil isn't God making people sin, it is God making the necessary conditions for people to act at all, including act in sinful ways.

This is really a straw man. Ask me if I can make a decision apart from God’s will and I will ask you if you can make a decision apart from God’s foreknowledge. If God foreknew the world and your decision can’t surprise him, then you don’t have autonomy.

Talk about straw-man for those who are non-Calvinist. Project much?

White began with the pretense and deception that Calvigod, having determined ''ALL THINGS THAT COME TO PASS'' means that secondary causes relieve the first cause's guilt. Is that untrue? No, and here is why- Calvinism holds that Calvigod gets 100% of the Glory, claiming 1st causation and very intermediary step to be his work, thus forbidding glory to anyone or anything other than himself. Yet, when it comes to sinful evil deeds, he is only the first cause, and secondary causes buffer and shield him. Speaking of Flowers, White says, ''He doesn't believe that the Bible has any divine revelation in it.'' Liars burn in the Lake of Fire, James White! While some may say, claim that I am a shill for Flowers, I am not. In fact, Flowers publicly referred to me as a JERK and I often criticize his errors, as well. These videos contain James White Lying and slandering another human. And he does not do it by accident. These are not mistakes but are done knowingly.

All this time and energy wasted on orthodoxy which doesn’t even matter if Calvinism is true anyway bc it doesn’t effect salvation and we are just doing what Gos decrees us to do but has James spent even a tenth of a percent of his time teaching others to follow Jesus” commandments?

If you look at my bookshelf, you will see two volumes, neither of which is the Bible, in those books you will find arguments from a Calvinist arguing from his philosophy, not the Bible as to how Calvinism works. Sorry, Which BIBLE passage is that, again? IF White could have gone to the Bible to make his argument, he would have. But he cannot, thus his claimed Sola Scriptura Faith is disproved and he admits that his doctrine comes from the minds of men.

God willingly permits what violates His moral law.

F Libertarian free will does not get God off the hook.

Many plans are in a person’s heart, But the ᗩᗪᐯIᑕᗴ Oᖴ Tᕼᗴ ᒪOᖇᗪ ᗯIᒪᒪ ᔕTᗩᑎᗪ.