This is just classic. One for the best of AOM archives.

This was one of the most frustrating parts about being a non-calvinist back in the day before I became a Calvinist. Many teachers, bloggers and thought leaders in the non-calvinist camp don’t ever take a solid/consistent stance on any of this. Hence, why I have to, most of the time, call them non-calvinists because that’s really all they were. The only camp I found to take a stance on anything (which was where I landed before becoming a Calvinist) was Molinism. Even then, once I landed there, defending it was pointless because it wasn’t supported by the Bible in the slightest. It was more of a philosophical exercise, but not a theology that I could be in awe of or a theology that I can sing praise to God of which should always be the end result of Theology. Once I understood the concept of God being the only self-sustaining being and that all matter and time find their very existence in the mind of God, was enough for me to draw the logical conclusion that if my faith in him first existed in the mind of God before it ever existed in the created future, then naturally, my choice of God wasn’t first and thus his choice of me as his child wasn’t according to my choice of him. This unveiled to me a whole knew meaning to “…those whom he for knew, he also predestined…” (Romans 8:29), “those who are elect exiles…according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:2) and “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God…” (Acts 2:23). How could any of this exist prior to God’s conceiving of it in his divine omniscience. It doesn’t. And that’s the point and why I’m no longer a non-calvinist. ;) If God looked down the flow of time in any potential future, which must always first be conceived in the mind of God, your human will is an illusion at best and predestined at worst. You can do no other than that which God preconceived that you would do in the first place. Which really is just predestination with extra steps for the non-calvinist.

@contactmatts

2 жыл бұрын

Amen brother 🙏🏼

@pujiyesus

2 жыл бұрын

This was my journey too!

@CBALLEN

Жыл бұрын

Great comment! Your story is the story most of us have,that went from Arminian to reformed.God's ways are not man's ways and the Arminian will amen this,but once they are shown God's Sovereignty in all things ,including salvation, they will vehemently deny it .The thing is,we didn't believe it by our free will,it was God's will that caused us to change our belief and understand it.The Holy Spirit must teach it to us.What I don't know is why Arminians don't all believe it.I believe that once we have the Spirit, He will lead us into all Spiritual truth and I know we all must grow in knowledge and grace because we are basically just a bag of ignorance in our baby stage,but once we are shown these truths,we must believe them.For those who claim to be a Christian, and who know the arguments and some who even claim they used to be reformed and who are not anymore,how can they blaspheme God and call Him a devine rapist and many other things,if this is true? what does it all mean? Are they born again but just still confused or are they still natural men?

@michellecheriekjv4115

10 ай бұрын

​@@CBALLEN.... Excellent Question. We know for sure Jesus tells us there will be Wolves amongst the Sheep...Tares amongst the Wheat etc. First and foremost, no truly Born Again person who understands the Reformed view ( simple Bible Truth) walks away from the Truth. When l was Born Again into God's Kingdom, that's when l first opened the Scripture's. I believed everything it said about calling, Election, Predestination, Foreknowledge, etc. I just didn't have the Biblical Knowledge base to lay out all my Theology in words. And everyone immediately came at me telling me Calvinism/ Reformed Theology was heresy. I kept reading the Scripture's. You can't unsee Truth if you are saved. The Holy Spirit is guiding you. I personally think men like L.F. and the other anti-Reformed pages springing up are simply either Wolves or not saved. Because we all should be reading and studying the Scriptures alone everyday and having the Holy Spirit guiding and showing us truth, connecting things for us personally. How do you read the Bible everyday and come to the conclusion that it's wrong? Or that God's not in control? There's a horrid channel l just came across called "Beyond the Fundamentals"... he is teaching little children that Reformed Theology is evil. There was about 20 little children in his living room and he teaches them the "Calvinist buzzwords" to be on guard against. I felt sick. I also noticed some names of people who are on some pages we all follow who are the ones fighting against the Truth. See where they get it. How can these people devote their lives speaking against God. Because they are either Wolves in disguised or not saved. God Bless...📖🌷

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

​​@@michellecheriekjv4115 How can you come to the conclusion that people are damned to hell from birth, and that they have no hope, when God said, that everything was created for his pleasure, and that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and Jesus said, that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, and God said in Isaiah, that hell has enlarged herself to accommodate men? All those verses go against the calvinists doctrine that people are damned to hell since they were birth. That only a certain amount of peopel were chosen for salvation. John wrote, that every man that comes into the world has the light of Jesus in them. That means they have just enough light, to seek out more light, but they suppress the truth. On calvinisim, it is not them that suppress the truth, but it is God that determined them to suppress the truth. Also, we non calvinists, know God is in control, but that he doesn't control everything. Sure he declared the end from the beginning, but there is nothing in the Bible that says, he also declared everything in between. You don't know the Bible like you think you do, Paul said Demas left him, but never said anything about him losing his salvation, or that he never was saved. Also, have you ever heard of the works of the flesh, one of those is heresies, and anyone can do the works of the flesh, because we all live in the flesh still.

listening to flowers causes me physical pain. i can't believe anyone could ever agree with this guy

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

Only headache are ü sure? not migraine? Hahahaha7 😂🤣😂

@croireverite8293

3 жыл бұрын

What is his point anyway... destroy "calvinism" ? That is just a systhem. But à systhem who is STRONGLY based on Scripture... and arminianism is just not. And... yes. He is responding to great man of God like RC Sproul and other... What a weist of time

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

Do you agree with scripture?

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

@croireverite8293 It is not just system, it is a gospel. Arminianism is wrong because once saved you are preordained to salvation. That does not mean you lose free will choice, it means you have made a choice. Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you. That means God places you in heaven or God places you in hell. God is responsible. None of this says God is either sovereign or not sovereign. That is a false Calvinistic argument.

@jalapeno.tabasco

3 ай бұрын

@@donhaddix3770 lol, you have no idea what you're talking about >>Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you.

Leighton Flowers is one difficult fellow to follow in a discourse. I guess it's his technique.. I like how James White gives context, deconstructs every misleading side idea and gets to the subject

@paulcummins6780

7 ай бұрын

Indeed. Flowers is no flower. He is very deceptive. Someone who changes the goalposts every time is very wishy-washy in his theology, and finally does not have a solid foundation. If his founddation were the solid Rock Jesus, he would know that God has a reason for His actions and that He decides what He wants based on His criteria.

Leighton taking on Sproul... lol talk about punching outside your weight class. Probably why we got so many great lines here

@VincentW2

Жыл бұрын

For real

What was Leighton doing for those ten years as a Calvinist? Tunneling out beneath the pew?! 😂

@franciscusgomarus5086

4 жыл бұрын

I doubt if he EVER was a 5 point Calvinist.

@nickhanley5407

3 жыл бұрын

There’s this thing called being born again...

@pateunuchity884

3 жыл бұрын

@Nick Hanley Oh, yeah...regeneration. 👍🏽

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

@@pateunuchity884 flowers 💐 🌻 🌷 💮 🌸 🌼 🏵️ 🌹 been doing confusion to the body of CHRIST he is stumbling us for the longest time, by inserting 🗺 worldy stuff to the scriptures 😔

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

@@nickhanley5407 Were the disciples born again before or after they believed and followed Jesus throughout His earthly ministry?

That whole crowd is so frustrating to deal with. God can surprise himself by creating things that are unknown to him but he can't be surprised because nothing is unknown to him at the same time according to them, and they don't even see the slightest issue with that at all.

Please keep producing these Dividing Line Highlights videos. They are so helpful in rebutting objections to the Doctrines of Grace, particularly those from Leighton Flowers. I don't see any Highlights videos produced in the last couple of years.

14:39 - Yeah, I seriously doubt Leighton will ever put out a video critical of open theism given how buddy buddy he is with several of them. Even more telling, when Mike Winger was on his show, the question came up about which is a greater danger to the church, Calvinism or Open Theism. Leighton strongly believed that Calvinism was the greater danger (Winger disagreed). I know Baptists love their independence, but I appreciate that Presbyterians have systems in place to examine teaching elders and officers to avoid error creeping in. It ain't perfect, but it works pretty well.

@SamOwenI

4 жыл бұрын

Let's not forget reformed Baptists now

@oracleoftroy

4 жыл бұрын

@@SamOwenI As far as I am aware, Reformed Baptists don't use a Presbyterian system of governance; each congregation is still independent. Am I wrong?

@SamOwenI

4 жыл бұрын

@@oracleoftroy oh indeed independent, but still accountable to elders, of the local church, and other local churches.

Whoa I didn't know he actually said 'choice meats' wow

Leighton just implied "God saved me because I'm better than the unsaved". Smh

@daddada2984

Жыл бұрын

What?

@imdilyn

Жыл бұрын

True he always acts that way towards the unregenerate it’s sad :/

@davidochiengbuoga7165

11 ай бұрын

God saves because that was His will ordained before time

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

​@@imdilyn Yet, calvinists believes they are the better ones because God choose them, when we non calvinists believe we are on the same playing field as everyone every born. Calvinists believe they are the chosen ones (choice meats.)

@bjornegan6421

9 ай бұрын

@@livingforjesus8551 where did you come to the idea that 'calvinists' believe they are better? They affirm they are worse, as they are the ones that admit they were completely without any merit of their own, any wisdom, any goodness, anything that would warrant God's favor. They confess they are the chief of sinners who would never do anything but evil if it was not for God's unmerited grace (a redundant term, grace is by definition unmerited). The 'arminian', however, claims that it is because of their own wisdom that they go from finding the cross and the things of God from being foolishness (1 Cor 1, 1 Cor 2), to finding it wisdom, the power of God unto salvation. They claim it is because of their own goodness that they choose to no longer be at enmity with God, to love sin and hate Him, to go from not seeking Him to seeking Him. Is that not what you just said? Because if we are all on the same playing field, then if coming to God, if believing is apart from God, as you claim, then the reason you do and others don't is because you were so wise as to choose while others are so foolish not to, and you were so good as to choose what is good, when others were so bad they hate what is good.

John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

@cork8843

3 жыл бұрын

““If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” ‭‭John‬ ‭15:18-19‬ Notice too when Jesus said: “Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world.” That sounds like unconditional election to me. Seriously.

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 👉🏻Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.👈🏻 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

@bisdakpinoy3428

3 жыл бұрын

@@cork8843 and because God is the one who chose us, the world hates us

@janet183

3 жыл бұрын

Scripture is always clear…the spirit of truth teaches us all things that are true ..and the world can’t receive him…and we are chosen out of the world, and the world hates us just us it hated Christ….

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

Where at in that passage doez it say that he chose them for salvation, because I don't see it there at all.

When examining Leightons hermeneutics, it suggests he was never a Calvinist. He never attained the concept of Chronology.

I've ALWAYS been suspicious of Leighton's " i used to be a Calvinist " claim...hearing that about 6 people have contacted Dr.White to say he WASN'T a Calvinist because they knew him then, makes PERFECT SENSE! If you USED TO BE something then you don't say things that make it seem like you're unfamiliar with it. I always thought he used that " used to be a Calvinist " claim to make his case stronger. Anyone running from the text or injecting their man made THOUGHTS into scripture is simply refusing to bow their HEARTS to GOD'S WORD!

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

So, we're people made for hell, and go there because God chose them to go there, and only choose some to be saved? Or was hell prepared for the devil and his angels, as Jesus said, and hell has to enlarge herself to accommodate men, ad Isaiah put it? Matthew 25:41 King James Version 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Isaiah 5:14 King James Version 14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Flowers has a seriously distorted view of the Sovereignty of God. I remember on one of his videos, he didn't like a certain word in John 6:44 because it sounded to him that someone is being forcibly taken. But, he didn't try to understand what is actually being expressed in this verse: John 6:44 NASB No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me 👉draws👈 him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Flowers felt it would be better to say "ENABLE," instead of draws in John 6:44. This changing of the word would invalidate the very beginning of the verse and gives man the ability to come to God OF THEIR OWN INITIATIVE. Therefore, making man the deciding factor whether or not to come to God or not on humanistic basis. Even Christ Jesus had told Nicodemus how a person must come to God in chapter 3: John 3:1-15 NASB Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; [2] this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." [3] Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." [4] Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" [5] 👉Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.👈 [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [8] 👉The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."👈 [9] Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" [10] Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? [11] Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. [12] If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? [13] 👉No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.👈 [14] As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; [15] so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. In conclusion, God has made it known to humanity concerning Himself through His Son Christ Jesus by the Power and Glory of the Holy Spirit. Flowers is completely wrong in his assumptions about John 6:44 and what Calvinism actually teaches! To know of God begins from God! I can't come to God without the Father revealing His Son to me, except by the Holy Spirit!

@paulperry1489

3 жыл бұрын

All Facts!! Beautiful my brother!

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

Do you celebrate the holy ween, bro, what is that picture do you put in your writings? Looks like a vampire..but the way, your writing is excellent

@PatternSon

2 жыл бұрын

I'm stealing your 👉fingerprinting👈 fr, 👍🏾!!

Grace is literally UNMERITED favor… leighton… cmon.

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

So trusting Jesus for righteousness, merits salvation from your sins and escape from the torments of hell? Does that really sound like payment has been made if you believe on our own? If the enemy surrenders, do they have their lives spared because they earned it or are they hoping to be given mercy?

@RationalGaze.BingChillin

6 ай бұрын

@@evanu6579 the issue with your response is that your framing in the first question implies that trusting Jesus is a work that merits the wage of salvation. Merit has to do with something a person deserves. At your job you may earn an increase in pay based on a merit system. Since we are descendents from Adam and inherited his sin nature we are born children of wrath and what we deserve is God’s wrath. So merit and deserving is not a part of salvation. This is why it’s called grace and mercy. Our salvation is getting the opposite of what we deserve and getting God’s mercy and grace instead “to praise of his glorious grace” as the Bible says. This is how salvation works according to the Scriptures: Romans 4:1-5 Abraham Justified by Faith [1] What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? [2] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [3] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” [4] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. So the righteousness of God is clearly by faith. Which we demonstrate in our works. Romans 3:21-27 The Righteousness of God is Through Faith in Jesus in Christ. 21] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [27] Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. The question then becomes How do we get this faith? We receive the faith as a free gift from God himself. Receiving is the passive role that we assume. We are not acting in the process of salvation it is all happening to us. Ephesians 2 teaches this in Ephesians 2:1-10 Count all of the active verbs in this passage that God is doing TO us. the reference to us is about our state, nature, and our receiving. The rest of the references are to God’s actions and his purpose in taking those actions upon us and his nature. By Grace Through Faith [1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

@@RationalGaze.BingChillin So if you agree that faith is not a work, then why did you make it sound as though Leighton doesnt believe in grace? He believes that it’s by grace through faith. The difference between him and White is whether regeneration precedes faith or vice versa. Btw, atheists have faith, Mormons have faith and pretty much every system of belief has faith.

I was the "choice" meat!? Bruh, you don't know me, but I do by the grace of God!

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

Arminianism is wrong because once saved you are preordained to salvation. That does not mean you lose free will choice, it means you have made a choice. Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you. That means God places you in heaven or God places you in hell. God is responsible. None of this says God is either sovereign or not sovereign. That is a false Calvinistic argument. Arminianism is wrong because once saved you are preordained to salvation. That does not mean you lose free will choice, it means you have made a choice. Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you. That means God places you in heaven or God places you in hell. God is responsible. None of this says God is either sovereign or not sovereign. That is a false Calvinistic argument.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

​@@donhaddix3770God doesn't put anyone in hell, they put themselves there by their sins... Your grasp of calvinism is extremely lacking

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 Calvinism limits God's love and mercy.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

@@donhaddix3770 wrong again man, is anything in your theology correct? Calvinism exemplifies Gods grace and mercy more than any other system....

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 really? by choosing people's fate solely at God's whim?

Wouldn't all the meat in the grocery store be rotten because we have all fallen short of the glory of God? Maybe I dont fully understand his choice meats analogy.

@repentorperish1386

2 жыл бұрын

He doesn't believe that that we are all spiritually dead. And his analogy is just to squeeze away from the text his opinion instead of what the author was communicating

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

His analogies are always inaccurate

It's sad that Leighton wastes so much time and effort attempting to prove he's right rather than spreading the gospel.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

Hiw do you know he don't spread the gospel, do you have God like power, or are you baring false witness?

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

​@@livingforjesus8551IDK if he actually spreads the gospel with the beliefs he has

@livingforjesus8551

6 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 What us the gospel?

The way Leighton Flowers portrays himself as being even-tempered and fair-minded while lying and misrepresenting the facts makes my skin crawl.

@aletheia8054

Ай бұрын

That’s how the devil operates. It’s supposed to make a child of Gods skin crawl

A brutally clear retort to Flowers. Flower's argument was dismantled thoroughly.

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

If unconditional election is true, then why does the bible equate wisdom with believing?...... 2Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Matt 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. These believed because they were more noble. How does that work with unconditional election? Thanks and God bless.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@evanu6579 The Bible equates wisdom and election because God's chosen people have wisdom and they believe. They believe because God gave them the belief. They will have wisdom because of agape. You've been told and shown so many times that it's not even funny. You're stupid. That's The Bible's term for a brute beast that can't learn. by the way what grade of meat are you? Are you choice prime grade A. Just how highly do you think of your meat. Idios.

@repentorperish1386

2 жыл бұрын

@@billyr9162 brother while i have to agree with you. I have to call you out on your language here. Please have more grace, all your attitude does is drive arminians away. Stay firm brother just be motr graceful

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

​@@evanu6579who gives wisdom?

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

​@@evanu6579if you deny unconditional election (which even Thomas Aquinas affirms) them by default you hold to conditional election Meaning YOU fulfill a condition and you are saved Which means your choice and actions cause you to be saved And you can boast That is unbiblical

The choice meat thing is killing me!😂 I’m dying here 😂

Lecture inception... a lecture within a lecture within a lecture

Hahaha.. no flowers people trying to defend this.

Flowers can't understand that the type of meat we were was dead meat. God used His will to make us "choice meat".

Nobody wont say this but dr. Flowers is preaching a different gosple.

Does God favor certain people over others? “For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place. 4 “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life." Yep.

@ryangallmeier6647

3 жыл бұрын

Nice! Thanks, Greg. Yep, it is God ALONE who possesses 'the power of contrary choice' (the synergistic definition of "free will" that they idolatrously attribute to human beings). *Soli Deo Gloria*

@nikokapanen82

3 жыл бұрын

This does not mean that God is playing partiality. For there is no partiality with God. -Romans 2:11 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality. Col 3:25 For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. Deut. 10:17 Opening his mouth, Peter said:“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality. Acts 10:34 Now then let the fear of the Lord be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the Lord our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe.” 2 chronicles 19:7 Opening his mouth, Peter said:“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. Acts 10:34 Who shows no partiality to princes Nor regards the rich above the poor, For they all are the work of His hands? Job 34:19 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9 There are many more verses about God not being partial nor showing favoritism. So this claim what James White does, saying that God is saving a tiny fraction of human souls, who deserves to go to hell the same way as the ones who actually will be in hell, just to give himself glory and praise is a total absurdity, because doing so God is creating literally infinite injustice in the world. That does not glorify Him, that makes Him being evil to the core.

@sovereigngrace9723

3 жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 these verses are saying He is impartial with His judgement. There is no pardon for sins.

@nikokapanen82

3 жыл бұрын

@@sovereigngrace9723 So want to say God is playing partiality in other things?

@sovereigngrace9723

3 жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 I mean, look at the original comment. God has been choosing people since the OT. How does setting apart a whole nation for His promises and excluding the rest in the OT not show favor from His choice?

19:55 "I'm gonna take a picture" -James White 😂😂😂

Leighton, commits the genetic fallacy when he asserts that God's sovereign choices are based on what He finds in the creature.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

That's the entire root of his issue, he thinks salvation can be merited or earned...

Thumbnails are fantastic haha

Watch Flowers discussion with Mike Winger. He keeps trying to get Winger to say Calvinists are worse than Open Theists and Winger won’t bite. It’s pretty amazing thing to see.

@gigahorse1475

5 ай бұрын

Mike Winger doesn’t understand Calvinism, but I’m happy to see he doesn’t fall for that! I love his work.

@jonathanchaney5896

5 ай бұрын

@@gigahorse1475 as in he should be a Calvinist?

Where are the Flower kids on this comment section?.....ALL EARS🦻

Now I'm no grammarian or grammatician. I'm not even a gramophile. But in the sentence "I made a choice." the word "choice" is not a verb.

@TheMaineSurveyor

Жыл бұрын

True. And the sentence “I made a choice” means the same thing as “I chose.”

I'm not a Calvinist, but I honestly find no issue with Calvinism and am so annoyed when people misrepresent it or call it evil

Leighton does not ponder the implications of the things he says

They’ve got the meats! Day made

Leighton Flowers remains a Daisy, Pray , by Gods Mercy and Grace, he becomes a TULIP

"A MIGH-TY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD!.."

Stunk it up, that is funny!!!! Good call!!

Choice meats are those privileged from eternity past chosen by the father born proviliged to be saved while everybody else born sinner; they're born chosen to be saved, holy and blameless. They have been awarded free membership to the choice meats club forever from birth!! I think JW got it the other way around! 😅😅😅😂😂

Elected for the praise of the Glory of His grace.Therein is a great purpose served. And compared to that no service ever performed by us could be of value. If there were truly an election, then by that necessity is demonstrated the Sovereignty of God in the gracious salvation of the some, and not by their own choice, but by such unmerited distinction, God must be praised for exercise wholly of His grace. The salvation of the elect is not first for their salvation, otherwise all would be elect for salvation, to the greater value. But the praise of the glory of His grace is the much higher purpose. God, fully knowing before hand, and this according to His purpose, did also create all of the higher beings, to serve Him, giving choice to their rebellion if so willed, and this without salvation for them, yet by them He will be also begrudgingly praised. He thereby is praised. They will, in their judgement, not experience His grace, but will have cause for wonder over the salvation of those rebellious lessers. Thereby God receives praise for His grace. I would prefer to be dragged out a fire even kicking and screaming in protest of my salvation, in the gratitude of hindsight. But by His regeneration of our spirits He gives us gratitude in faith, in repentance whatever that will mean.

The only reason that a person can respond to God’s choice in election in the manner that Leighton does over and over again is if in their heart, they have an atheistic framework, or a framework which refuses to see God. When the answer over and over again is: “because God decided, or to display His glorious grace” and that isn’t good enough an answer for a person, it is because they don’t see God as the ultimate. When a person continually responds to this with, “there is no apparent reason”, it is because man is the ultimate in their thinking and they can’t imagine that God would be an actual and real Person, Who makes decisions, and has His own will and mind. Those who answer the way Leighton does to Ephesians 1 just show that they really don’t believe that God is a real person with His own personal will and mind. To them, He just has to be a God that they can control and understand the ways of.

Fast forward to now, Leighton Flowers has become an open theist.

8 ай бұрын

Is really preaching that now? 😮

@TheFreedomDefender

8 ай бұрын

@ yup. And he's holding hands with pelagianists right now.

@crisen_

7 ай бұрын

@@TheFreedomDefender at least his not in denial now that's good news

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

What video is that ? I wanna see this

"The question is; Is He saving people for no apparent reason, or is He saving people for a reason?" - Leighton Flowers I've reached a threshold of frustration with LF because I can no longer assign to him a virtue of good-faith in his argumentation. This is starkly different from someone who merely derives a different interpretation of Scripture with which I happen to disagree. There is a confidence man, used car salesman styling to his rhetoric where he bounces around shot-gunning dozens of claims and assertions per minute in order that he impair his opponents in their ability to address and potentially refute them. It takes an especially good ear to identity his fundamental claims among the set he floods the zone with. In addition to this tactic, he also uses vague expressions to imply one meaning (often in the form of an emotional appeal), while retaining the use of another (usually one more grounded in truth) in order to affect his rhetorical stylings. The above quote is a perfect illustration of this. When LF uses the phrase "no apparent reason", he is offering forked meanings; the main one is designed to convey the impression he wishes to give to his audience; the alternate is used as a less impactful subordinate counter to the first. Specifically, when LF says "no apparent reason", his main line of intention is to suggest how preposterous it is to posit God as acting in a random unreasoned fashion; that if you hold unconditional election to be true, then you are thereby reducing the intention of God's Will to random unreasoned absurdity. Once he's accomplished this task, he then claws back on some of this evoked emotional appeal. He goes on to state that he's not in fact suggesting that God is unreasoned, but that man is merely incapable of ascertaining said meaning. These fallback clarifications of course comport with the truth, but notice how divergent these two expressions are? He rings the bell aloud with great emotional appeal, then like a lawyer using fine print in a contract, retracts the implications made; however, the net result is for his audience to come away in remembrance of the loud bell and to forget all that lesser heard “fine print”. It's all form and little substance when it comes to LF's argumentation for his claims. He sounds good. He sentimentally appeals to man's innate desires, which is above all, to be his own master; a mere extension of the very theme of mankind which stretches all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

I’m confused. If it’s all about the praise they give to God, why wouldn’t he save others to bring him even more praise? Unless it’s because the people he saved would end up giving more pleasing praise to God in response to salvation, in which case wouldn’t it then be based on the person?

@Jondoe_04

Жыл бұрын

So the reason God doesn't save everyone is demonstrate His justice and wraith against sin "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory," Romans 9:22-23 So our salvation is 100% off His good pleasure and will and our condemnation is 100% based off our sin. God works to save, He hardened the hearts to damn, He doesn't force the damned to sin He allows them to stay on their own path. Basically He saves and damns to demonstrate Himself.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

Exactly

You know flowers get mad at his wife when she sends him to the grocery.. her lists are to Calvinistic😂😂😂

@RezG_777

2 ай бұрын

I was not predestined to understand this joke.

Did God make the tares and the good seed ? Then it would seem his Torah would be the law that saves or 'ONE' who gives his life so God can save all.

This was an epic takedown of Flowerism. I get the feeling, after watching this response, Leighton needed therapy. No disrespect meant🙂

@donhaddix3770

6 ай бұрын

Arminianism is wrong because once saved you are preordained to salvation. That does not mean you lose free will choice, it means you have made a choice. Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you. That means God places you in heaven or God places you in hell. God is responsible. None of this says God is either sovereign or not sovereign. That is a false Calvinistic argument. Arminianism is wrong because once saved you are preordained to salvation. That does not mean you lose free will choice, it means you have made a choice. Calvinism is wrong because you have no choice. God decides for you. That means God places you in heaven or God places you in hell. God is responsible. None of this says God is either sovereign or not sovereign. That is a false Calvinistic argument.

I only thought LF was blind to see the truth so far, now he is deaf too. God help him.

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

If unconditional election is true, then why does the bible equate wisdom with believing?...... 2Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Matt 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. These believed because they were more noble. How does that work with unconditional election? Thanks and God bless.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@evanu6579 Lol!!! You just made The Choice meats argument.

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

@@billyr9162 Cool. Can you answer the question?

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@evanu6579 There is no question. You're question is stupid.

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

@@billyr9162 If there is no question then there can’t be a stupid question. That’s a stupid comment.

Prime and wagu are better meats. Those meats probably get sent to the 2nd and 3rd heavens respectively.

Choice meats 😂😂😂 smh. Analogesis to the fullest.

Leighton 'one trick pony' Flowers 😂

“STUNK” 24:08

Epic fail! 🤣. Thanks Bro. James

Dare I ask how favorable--good, spiritually astute, faithful, humble, repentant, contrite--a person must be in order to be chosen by God for salvation?

@toolegittoquit_001

9 ай бұрын

So much for Sola Gratia 😕

Romans 11 17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Leighton took off a lot of time after this😂

Dr. White - I dare say - your hair is on fire!

I don't think LF is saved. That's just me

@douglasmcnay644

2 жыл бұрын

If he truly is a child of God (which I pray for his sake that he is), then he is very misguided.

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

I always just remember the biblical fact that God gives certain people more faith than others in their lives. I think Arminians are simply weaker in the faith and cannot accept the truth of predestination. Guys like Frank Turek have so much right yet miserably fail on a few doctrines.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

​@@AMessengerofTruth I will take it, that you believe that people were also predestined for hell. Why do you believe that, when revelation says the purpose of creation, is to bring pleasure to God, in the old testament says, that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they turn from their wicked ways and live, and Jesus said, everlasting fire wad prepared for the devil and his angels, and Isaiah says, that hell has enlarged herself to accommodate men? With all that knowledge, I don't know how anyone can say they people were predestined to go to hell, when scripture says that men wad not meant to go there, that it was prepared for the devil and his angels, and that God gets pleasure when the wicked turns from their wicked ways and lives.

Salvation of the elect is by grace no one deserves it. To say it's God "favor" is the wrong way to put it. God is sovereign and we have no right to complain against Him. It has nothing to do with our effort, work, or righteousness. Will you argue with God? Be grateful and give Him glory if He has given you eyes to see and the desire to know Him. May He use you to bring the Good News of the Gospel to those in darkness. Not all will be saved but some will, the same Gospel but different reactions why? Jesus said to his disciples "You have not chosen me I have chosen you." Give glory to God not man.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

According to calvinists everything is determined by God, and that peopel are only doing what has already been determined, and they can't do anything differently. So, if they are not giving glory to God, God has determined for them to do that, and in which case he still gets the glory because God is the one who determined that. When in reality everything was created to bring pleasure to God, as revelation says, and the old testament says that he takes no pleasure from the death of the wicked, but that they turn from their wicked ways and live, and Jesus said, everlasting fire wad prepared for the devil and his angels, and Isaiah said, hell had enlarged herself to accommodate men. Having this knowledge, I can't in good conscience support calvinism, which teaches that only some have been chosen for salvation, when scripture doesn't support that at all. What did he choose them for though, for salvation, or some other purpose. Jesus also said, have I not chosen you 12, and one of you is a devil. He also chose Judas the traitor. You have to look at thos verse in their context.

@toolegittoquit_001

9 ай бұрын

Revelation 13:8 would have a word

So glad that after being a Calvinist for years, that I started to read the Bible in context and realized how unbiblical Calvinism is. Study the Bible in context and study the entire Bible and you will see what I mean.

@brianvanderkodde7113

5 ай бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/l4yNspVwoJnVhJc.htmlsi=GptG3hM7HCG83CZW

Leighton "I'm a choice piece of meat" Flowers

@mmttomb3

2 жыл бұрын

He's a choice Flower🙂

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

Yet, it is calvinists who believe they have been chosen (choice meats) over everyone else to go to heaven.

@ryangallmeier6647

9 ай бұрын

@@livingforjesus8551 'chosen,' yes; but not because of anything 'good' in us. See the difference? Dr. Flowers thinks God chose him because he made himself a "choice piece of meat" fit to be chosen by Him. See the difference?

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

@@ryangallmeier6647 No, that is not what he thinks, have you really listen to Flowers because he believes that anyone can be saved, not just him. On calvinisim, they believe they are the chosen ones. He doesn't say that he made himself to be better, and that is why God saved him. I have listen to many of his videos, and not once have he said he made himself better, so that God can save him.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

@@ryangallmeier6647 So, do you believe that those in hell, have been predestined to go there? Chosen for what though?

Funny pic

Why does Dr Flowers keep saying that Calvinist teach that God chose a people 'for no reason' or, 'no apparent reason'. I wouldn't want to be in his shows when he is explaining to God, that 'to the praise of His glory' is no reason to save a people! Eph 1v14.

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

Amen

Let's just remember Leighton Flowers' fundamental FALSE teaching, here: All synergistic Christians claim that Saving Faith comes from man 'conjuring it up out of the cauldron of their own power of contrary choice' (the false definition of 'human free will'). So, Leighton believes that his Faith came from his own self 'conjuring it up out of the cauldron of his own free will'...talk about arrogance and false pride.

Analagesis. Lol!!!

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

💐 🌻 🌷 💮 🌸 🌼 🏵️ 🌹 Analagesis on Flowers = "FLOWERISM" of different types, spices & fragrance = possible! BUT NEVER WORKs ON SALVATION yet Flowers applying such theory🤔😱

Of course God has a reason, that is a carnal way of thinking, ligton flowers...our choosing is in-pure, because we are sinners and there are prejudices, within us...but the choosing of God is pure, and it is for his glory ... . That's why his choosing of us...he chose the worst of us 1 Corinthians 1: 27-31 but the foolishness of the world chose God, to shame the wise; and the weak of the world chose God, to shame the strong; and the vile of the world and the despised God chose, and what is not, to undo what is, so that no one can boast in his presence. But through him you are in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us by God wisdom, justification, sanctification, and redemption; so that, as it is written: He who boasts, may glory in the Lord.

Again, Flowers demands the Most High explain to him who and why He saves whomsover He wills. Isa 14:13-14

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

He doesn’t demand an explanation as to whom or why He saves. He simply reads it in the bible….. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

@ManassehJones

6 ай бұрын

@evanu6579 Nobody is arguing against the plain truth of those text. The issue is why does God choose to save some and not others.

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

@@ManassehJones Because they believe. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

@ManassehJones

6 ай бұрын

@evanu6579 Still doesn't explain why 1.4 billion in Chi-na. 73% profess no religious affiliation. 29,000 every day take their last breath here on earth, most never hearing the Gospel. Guess they're not as humble as you and "choice meats" Leighton.

@ManassehJones

6 ай бұрын

@evanu6579 You and choice meats Leighton gonna stand before the Lord and say "I am thankful to me I was more humble than the more than 600,000 people that die every day, most never having heard the Gospel of grace." I'm sure God is proud of you.

God gave us choices. Choose this and you go to heaven. Choose this and you go to hell. Nowhere in the Bible does it say he forces anyone into a choice.

1:41

24:15 lol

Where does evil come from?

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

Evil comes from free will. It's when God stops directly controlling a creature and lets them do their own will. O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage. Isaiah 63:17 Even the prophet Isaiah understood God is sovereign. God causes people to stray from His ways by letting them go free.

@daddada2984

Жыл бұрын

@@AMessengerofTruthso there is freewill? God stop controlling? Why He stop controlling? so satan cause by God to be evil? So God in your idea is the author of evil? God cause adam & eve to sin then punished them for following Him? Is that schizophrenic god? Is evil a things?

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

@@daddada2984 Ask the prophet Isaiah why he wrote that, not me.

@daddada2984

Жыл бұрын

@@AMessengerofTruth maybe you read it with the lens of calvinism.. try to read it without that lens.. And how can i ask Isaiah? Why Isaiah? Why not God?

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

@@daddada2984 I just took off my Calvinist lens and became an Arminian. O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage. Isaiah 63:17 After reading this verse, I became a Calvinist again. Amazing Grace! Arminian theology has no grace, just free will worship. All I have to do to support the doctrines of grace is quote Scripture. All the Arminian has to do to support their lie of free will is ignore all Scripture. Simple! Amazing grace! God is great.

Leighton 🤡

Think... Think... Think🤔 is this the GOD, Dr leighton flowers 💐🌻🌷💮🌸🌼🏵️🌹worshipping? who is so adorable, soft & need man's willingness to cooperate in a man's Salvation?

so you can just twist a noun and make it into an adjective (in YOUR OWN language and not even in greek) and suddenly the Bible says what you want it to say? 😂

I still think that what distinguishes those whom God draws to himself from who he does not draw is humility. But having said that, I'm not saying humility is one's personal choice. God reigns over who is elevated and who is brought low. There is a bit of mystery as to how that works, but in terms of election, the lowly are very clearly distinguished (see 1 Corinthians 1:26-29). Note that if salvation includes regeneration, then according to Psalm 149:4, humility precedes regeneration. "He adorns the humble with salvation." The way I see this harmonizing with Dr White's position is that since humility is not something that one has, it elevates God's grace because humility is a condition where someone does not have something to offer. But on the reprobation side, isn't it right and just for God to condemn the proud? In this context I think single predestination works, since the salvation of the saved is attributed to God, and the destruction of the rest is attributed to themselves. And as scripture says, God will repay them according to their deeds, which points to them as the origin of their condemnation. Now a note on God's glory. It's to the benefit of all that he be glorified and for us to receive no glory since it's his glory that is the source of goodness. What that means is, if we were glorified apart from just receiving the glory of God, this would be a great loss to the whole universe, as we would be cut off from the source of goodness. That needs to be considered when thinking about the goodness that comes from God glorifying himself.

I can’t stand this guy

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

huh? you cannot stand Dr James White as well? me töö; cos he so funni at times... that is him🤣😂🤣

Flowers has been an azz for 4 years wow😮

Ephesians 1:5-6 [5] he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

Written to saints who already believed. The adoption is yet future. Read Rom 8.

@tricord2939

6 ай бұрын

@@evanu6579 Paul explains: Romans 8:30 [30] “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” Harmonizes perfectly with: John 6:44 [44] “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” & John 6:65 [65] And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

@@tricord2939 Yeah. Rom 30 is speaking of saints of old like David and Abraham (Rom 4). Paul even repeats some of the language used in Rom 4 in chapter 8. He foreknew (known beforehand or previously) David and he too is predestined to the resurrection which is future. Paul even says that Jesus may be the firstborn (from the dead) among many brethren. He’s assuring his audience that the saints of old will be with them in the resurrection. They (saints of old) like themselves, were also called, justified and glorified (given honour from God as belonging to Him).

@evanu6579

6 ай бұрын

@@tricord2939 And Paul was speaking to Israel in John 6:44 of which were hardened. All that belonged to the Father were given to the Son and the rest were hardened as explained in Rom 11 and given throughout John’s Gospel (and others). Gentiles were not yet allowed in. Acts 10 is when the door first opens for Gentiles to take part. First the Jew then the Gentile. So John 6 is accurate in saying that no one could come at that time. Once He is lifted up, things change….. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

@tricord2939

6 ай бұрын

@@evanu6579 You are reading into scripture what is not there, Paul teaches on the same subject as John 12:32. 1 Corinthians 1:18 [18] “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” So some are perishing & some are saved, who is saved? Those who are called in 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 [23] “but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, [24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Who is called? Could this be your “all men” both Jews & Greeks? You need to study scripture in context.

The thumbnail is a bit uncharitable and doesn't really make our case any easier. Calvinists are already undeservedly antagonized for doctrine, we don't need to be deservedly antagonized for behavior.

God elects a person - long before they are born. No one understands why God elects a particular person. No one knows and no will ever know. Quit trying to figure it out. God says, "My ways are higher than yours, my thoughts are higher than yours." There are many who point to God and demand that He reveal why He does what He does. Are you serious? Is God obligated to share with humans every single reason He has for every single thing He does - and does not do (those things we demand He do)? Really? A human being - created by God - a mere creature of dust - placing demands upon God?

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

We do know why He elects. It's for His glory. Every thing that has ever happened and ever will happen is for His glory. Also, we do know God's thoughts: For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:11‭, ‬16

@kathyern861

Жыл бұрын

@@AMessengerofTruth Tell me, what is God thinking right now - this very second. Thank you.

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

@@kathyern861 God never changes. Read the Bible to know what He thinks. I know what He thinks because I read the Bible and because He's given me His Holy Spirit.

@kathyern861

Жыл бұрын

@@AMessengerofTruth Completely dodged answering my question. Your hermeneutic is faulty, leading you a faulty conclusion.

@AMessengerofTruth

Жыл бұрын

@@kathyern861 God thinks murder is evil right now, just as He always has. Boom! I know what God thinks because I read His Word by His grace in His Spirit. Easy! Stop leaning on your own understanding. Knowing God is much easier if you actually read the Bible.

What if God in his divine freedom chose to give man freedom? And in spite of man’s freedom is omnipotent all knowing ? Why is that so beyond calvinists? Why limit God to having to choose everything in order to know everything?

@Xenotypal

3 жыл бұрын

because if He knew everything from the beginning, and declared the end from the beginning, how could there ever be freedom in the way you are talking about?

@terryfike8354

3 жыл бұрын

Where in scripture is there anything remotely like what you just said. We have a new methodology...'what-if-egesis.

@oracleoftroy

3 жыл бұрын

That sounds like what Westminster Confession 3.1 teaches "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." So God establishes our freewill and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains. Chapter 9 has a good overview of the Calvinist affirmation of human free will.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

​@@Xenotypal It says, he declared the end from the beginning, but nothing in there about anything in between.

At about 8th minute of this video, James says that God has the reason, the greatest reason of them all, to save just a few from hell, which is for His own glory and praise. How? How is that glorifying God for Him to choose to save a tiny fraction of people, who all deserve to go to hell exactly the same way as the ones who are going there in fact? How is creating this infinite injustice glorifying God?

@zacharyspickard4897

3 жыл бұрын

There are two problems with your question. 1. That we know the number of the elect. Some Calvinists believe that there will be more elect than there are non elect but we have no idea of knowing because it is beyond our human capacity. 2. If God would of saved just one person, it would be perfectly just and holy of Him to do so. But God rich in grace and mercy chose to save an elect people to which He would be glorified. For just a Paul says... “What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:14-16‬ ‭NASB‬ That is what grace is. It’s not fair because if it would be we would all be damned to hell. For the justice of God is glorified in those who are punished. It is the Lord who has mercy and compassion. Salvation is of the Lord. I pray that this will help you understand.

@nikokapanen82

3 жыл бұрын

@@zacharyspickard4897 I dont believe in spontaneus nothing. If God is going to have mercy on some, there must be a very good reason why He does it even if we dont know them yet. Anyways, my problem is not so much with the reality that only a fraction of people are being saved but that the rest are going to burn forever. Eternal torture has zero to do with any justice, love, mercy or righteousness. So if you take endless suffering away, everything becomes at least bearable even if not comprehensible.

@zacharyspickard4897

3 жыл бұрын

Niko Kapanen And that is ur problem right there. U are putting ur own standard of what is “good reason” and not the standard that the Scriptures gives. The glorification of God in saving the elect is truly the best and only reason why he saves. So that I can only boast in the Lord and not in my works. Just as it is written in 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 “But by his doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. so that, just as it is written, LET HIM WHO BOAST, BOAST IN THE LORD.” And on Eternal torment in hell, we must first come to realization of the sin that we commit against God and God himself. Sin is an act of rebellion and hatred against God and his Law. We are enemies of God in our natural state. When we commit sin, we are sinning against a holy and ETERNAL God. Therefore, that person will be punished for ETERNITY for committing that sin and not seeking God for forgiveness. They don’t only sin against God but they hate him. Again, you are allowing ur own opinions to override what Scripture says of Hell and those who will be punished for there sins.

@nikokapanen82

3 жыл бұрын

@@zacharyspickard4897 Lets talk about justice, love and evil for a bit. Lets start with justice. It is best described in the Old Testament, where God gave the rule "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", which means the amount of harm you have done to someone, is that same amount harm you get yourself, so justice always demands punishment but never overboards it, it demands only the same amount, the same harm what you have done yourself. Now lets take love. Love is a force which does not demand justice, does not demand giving you the same amount harm back. Love can calm down, forgive and forget the evil done without desiring punishments. That is true love. Now lets take evil. Evil does not forgive, evil does not forget, evil does not desire justice, it always wants to give you more than you deserve. An example, if you insult some gangster just with words, he could murder you, rape your wife and do harm to your kids. So evil is not forgiving nor just, it gives you more than you deserve and the more evil it is the more harm it will give to you. Now people who says that God will torture people for eternity, because He is so infinitely moral, makes God being not loving who forgives and forgets, not just who only gives the fair amount but pure, absolute evil who never forgives, who never forgets but will torture you forever. I am telling you, even Satan is not that evil, even Satan, after getting angry at his disobedient demon, would torture that demon for a time, maybe long time but at some point would say "that is it, i'm done with you, go away" yet God will never stop torturing you, EVER? Nothing is more evil than that. This is one of the reasons, why endless torture is an absurdity.

@cork8843

3 жыл бұрын

Niko Kapanen “But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?-as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:5-8‬ {Your view of Sin and your view of God it too low based on what scripture actually teaches.} “What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:9-11‬ And speaking of Hell Jesus said in a prophecy of Himself Judging the Nations/World in the future: ““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 41, 46‬

Your confusion and why you think he is an open theist is because you don’t understand Omnipresence - ALL places at ALL time, to make it clearer maybe at ALL times. Once you understand this maybe it will click. Now to God is in the Garden with Adam and Eve, with Noah Building the Ark, with Moses during the Exodus, during the time of Jesus, and now. To God the creator of Time, now is always. There is no future, past, there is only the Present with God, because he Created time which is only in reference to creation (material) before creation there was no time. There just was. He transcends time. That is how we can be free and he can be Omniscient.

Isn’t it limiting to say God only know the future because controls everything that will ever happen? Isn’t it more glorious that he knows the future in spite of mans free choices?

@Stanzi18

3 жыл бұрын

Whichever is more glorious is irrelevant to the fact of God's choosing unconditionally. What's more specifically relevant to this topic is that it's God's predestining of His elect regardless of future circumstances.

@terryfike8354

3 жыл бұрын

No

@douglasmcnay644

10 ай бұрын

That's purely your opinion. Let God speak for Himself as to how He is to be best glorified.

@livingforjesus8551

9 ай бұрын

​@@Stanzi18 So, I guess that means he predestined the rest to hell, even though scripture says differently? Revelation says everything was created for God's pleasure, and that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they turn from their wicked ways and lives, and Jesus said, everlasting fire was created for the devil and his angels, and Isaiah says, hell has enlarged herself to accommodate men. With these facts of the bible, I cannot support calvinism, because it is a false teaching.

@Stanzi18

9 ай бұрын

@@livingforjesus8551 predestination carries a specific relational aspect when it's in relation to salvation. God's elect are predestined, but the ones who are not elect are not predestined. If you wish to mischaracterize the doctrines of grace and call that God predestining people to hell, then that's on you, but that's not what the Scriptures say. Got me ordained that they go to hell passively, but they are the reason they go to hell, not God. It's curious that you quote Revelation saying that God has created everything for His pleasure, because it sounds so close to Proverbs 16:14 which says "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil." So God is not forfeiting His sovereignty in the lives of unbelievers. He is sovereign over them and their hearts.

I thought God has no respect of persons?! 🤔

@gregcrouse6988

4 жыл бұрын

That's precisely what unconditional means. God elects certain individuals to salvation without respect to their personal choices, heritage, or actions. Hence, not a respecter of persons.

@hondobondo

3 жыл бұрын

he favors whom he favors but that verse applies to Jews vs Gentiles. God saves Jews and Gentiles and he holds Jews and Gentiles accountable to his commands

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

@@gregcrouse6988 If unconditional election is true, then why does the bible equate wisdom with believing?...... 2Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Matt 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. These believed because they were more noble. How does that work with unconditional election? Thanks and God bless.

@gregcrouse6988

3 жыл бұрын

@@evanu6579 //2Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.// Yes, the word of God has the power to save; but obviously it doesn't save everyone who reads it. The HS uses the word to impart regeneration to those whom He chooses. //Matt 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:// Yes, it is wise to follow Jesus' teachings. What has that to do with election? //Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.// But because of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who from God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption, //These believed because they were more noble. How does that work with unconditional election? // It doesn't say they believed "because" they were more noble.... they were noble "in that they received the word..." unregenerate people are unable to do that 1Cor 2:14. Hope that helps. BTW, if people believed by their own wisdom, then there would be boasting in heaven ;-)

@evanu6579

3 жыл бұрын

@@gregcrouse6988 It says “wise unto salvation”. What is wise in being unconditionally elected? Would it be wise of you to have a bar of gold show up on your front porch? If you look at the context of 1Cor 1, Paul is saying how that God used the foolishness of the cross to confound the wise. There aren’t many noble or many wise. It’s because of God that the simple Corinthians are in Christ. God chose simple methods to get simple people. 1Cor 2:14 is referencing the deep things of God. Even the Corinthians couldn’t understand them which rules out the Gospel..... 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? As for Acts 17..... Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. Why did they believe? What was the initial trait that began the search for Truth? There wouldn’t be bragging in heaven because humility is the first thing required for salvation. First you humble yourself in admitting your guilt and need for a saviour and then you trust in Jesus. A Christian doesn’t believe he saved himself. He has accepted an offer. It’s wise to do so.

You are doing the same thing you're accusing him of doing,, You are out there man

@douglasmcnay644

2 жыл бұрын

Ummm...no.

Calvinism is nothing but medieval court jester theology. There is nothing in the creature that entices God to choose that individual. Well this is an extra-biblical doctrine, but who cares, as it does not matter one bit. According to Calvinism, God created each individual as he chose, for salvation or reprobation. So the elect are not chosen without condition, they ar chosen because they were created to be the chosen. Saying that there is nothing in the creation to notice God would only mean something if he did create them in non-calvinistic way.

@toolegittoquit_001

9 ай бұрын

And what is your belief instead ?

@dustincampbell4835

8 ай бұрын

Hey OP, trying arguing from the biblical text instead of the vanity of your mind.

@crisen_

7 ай бұрын

the Calvinism view is ALL MEN ARE REPROBATE not even one is good enough to earn eternal life. He saves some not because they have something good in them but because God is gracious and merciful. A simplistic analogy is "there is this billionaire give 2 dollars to some people, and not others. Is it unfair to the people who did not receive the two dollars?" If you say yes on what premise they should be given? the billionaire was just showing his graciousness.

Stay away from calvinism. Stay away from fanaticism of men. Follow Jesus, become a Christian.

Sorry. . .I find RC and James White. ..as very arrogant. I hope some of the folk commenting here actually take some time to listen to Leighton. . ..and not just some chosen sound bites. Even James White says "look at his videos." So please do!

@ethanhocking8229

4 жыл бұрын

To call somebody arrogant is an attack on their character. But since you said it, I just want to make the point that if anyone is arrogant, it would be someone who believes that despite being a (totally) depraved sinner, God apparently looked in on the future of their lives and saw something of value in their character and hence felt compelled by some obligation to save that person from THEIR sin and adopt that person as His child - because of some meritorious faith on their part. If you are an Arminian and you claim not to believe this, I would very much like to know how.

@SamOwenI

4 жыл бұрын

I think you need to slow down and think through this issue. Some points: 1) Do you understand why the "choice meats" analogy is criticised here? 2) I think you are primarily labelling these men as arrogant because they were confident about their beliefs on this subject. That's not really arrogance. It's confidence that people who disagree with them on this subject are mistaken, but it's not arrogance. 3) What does election mean in the bible? Is it what Leighton Flowers says? Where do we see what he says it is in the bible? Is it not what Sproul and White say it is? Can you not see support for their teaching in the bible?

@ethanhocking8229

4 жыл бұрын

KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC Animal?

@shopson6991

4 жыл бұрын

👉 “though they were not yet born and 👉👉👉👉👉👉had done nothing either good or bad-👈👈👈👈👈👈👈in order that 👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉God’s purpose of election 👈👈👈👈👈👈👈👈👈👈👈👉👉👉might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉👉So then it depends not on 👉human will 👈or 👉exertion, 👉but on God, who has mercy.”👈👈👈👈 ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:11, 15-16‬ ‭ESV‬‬

@kuyperianberean

4 жыл бұрын

Ethan Hocking I think he’s referencing the meat anology.