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@canadiankewldude

4 ай бұрын

*_God Bless_*

@RonaldM992000

2 ай бұрын

Calvinism is incredibly self-contradictory. It's demonic. There's no such thing as a Calvinistic Christian. Ligonier is probably the worst ministry out there. The worst preacher ever is probably RC Sproul or John MacArthur.

"I think God is so sovereign that he can get His will done through our free will." This was the quote I never knew I needed.

@jpsatre

7 ай бұрын

That’s literally what Calvinism is saying.

@timothyvenable3336

6 ай бұрын

I love that quote! So good. But yeah that perfectly describes Calvinism lol but even if people like Frank don’t see it that way, ultimately it’s biblical Christianity

@M4N1MAL

6 ай бұрын

Amen. Took the words right out of my mouth.

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

this is just a molinism trope :(

@thecomingstorm9327

5 ай бұрын

Freewill =rebellion.

Frank turek makes it so simple for my pea size brain to get it. I'm thankful for him.

@brendapiany8930

8 ай бұрын

I also can be confused ,

@Sola_Scriptura_1.618

6 ай бұрын

​@brendapiany8930 I am jealous of you! You have a whole pea for a brain, I have nothing more of a sliver of a pea for a brain. God bless!

‘So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”’ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭18‬-‭20‬ ‭ESV‬‬

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

True! armenians today have more in common with Paul's objectors than with Paul. They are making the same exact arguments.

@AOmega72

5 ай бұрын

Begone heretics

@KingEdsChannel

3 ай бұрын

This verse says that God acts sovereignly. But before that, Paul makes it clear in Romans 9 verse 14 that God never acts unjustly: "What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not!" God always acts justly! Shortly afterwards from verse 17 you can see this in the example of Pharaoh: Pharaoh hardens his heart 6 times, which is predicted in Exodus 3:19: The king will not let you go. And in Exodus 8:32 it is clear that Pharaoh himself hardened his heart " And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also," At the 7th time in Exodus 9:12, what Exodus 4:21 predicts happens: And I, I will harden his heart. And this he does: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart." God gives Pharaoh clear signs to repent, but at some point enough is enough and God intervenes righteously and sovereignly.

@EmV-si1eu

2 ай бұрын

@@KingEdsChannel The passage conveys God's absolute sovereign purpose even more profoundly when it states concerning Pharaoh in Romans 9:17; For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth

@KingEdsChannel

2 ай бұрын

@@EmV-si1eu That's right, God intervenes absolutely sovereignly every day to accomplish his will. God also established all authorities (Romans 13:1), like the Pharao. But all are responsible before God for themselves and are not controlled by God, but have free will. But when God controls something according to his will, he intervenes sovereignly but justly. Just like Pharaoh, who rejected God and was righteously rejected by God after many special signs. And this man, who had a free will and whose hardened heart God knew from foreknowledge, God chose and used to proclaim his name and his power to the world - whereby many people have been saved to this day who believe in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. For God is love (1 John 4:8) and his will is that everyone should have room for repentance and that no one should perish (2 Peter 3:9). But many will go to hell, so that would contradict God's sovereign will if Calvinism were true. The most important point is that God never acts unjustly - if he condemned people to eternal hell in advance, wouldn't that be unjust? Judge for yourself.

Dr. Turek was born for this! Such a blessed gift to us 🙏🏾

@mattslater2603

8 ай бұрын

Born to toss word salad in an attempt to justify silly supernatural beliefs?

@sarshanden8033

8 ай бұрын

​@@mattslater2603Yeah, because mattslater from youtube knows better.

@WilliamEllison

8 ай бұрын

Was he born for this? Or did he accept the Holy Spirit and decide to follow and study his butt off. You sound like that lady kind of.

@WilliamEllison

8 ай бұрын

If you understand the scriptures (God's words) everything he said is very clear, and logical. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit (Truth) of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually (Reason and logic) discerned.@@mattslater2603

@rajeshvidyut5905

8 ай бұрын

@@WilliamEllison What to speak to you calvinism people after spoiling the virtues of God…

Of course we have freewill. We've all done things we wanted to do, have not done things we didn't want to do and refused to do things were tempted to do. That's as free as it gets.

@suzanneflowers2230

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for your post. BTW Festus will always be one of my favorite characters of all time!!!

@Gregoreo1127

8 ай бұрын

I call it local free will. We can’t choose time, place, education/society system, and people born into. And we don’t have ultimate free will where we speak anything we want into existence. We can create with and act on our will, but I wonder how much God doesn’t allow. We are definitely free with borders. I think. Thanks for the thought provokes. For a whole year I was a Calvinist hard core. But I couldnt explain if I chose to pick my nose did God choose that before I was made and I’m just walking out His will, or did I choose that all in my own. I definitely am on the other side of things, that God gave us choices to choose with our own Will wants and expectations and experiences.

@stevewright6800

8 ай бұрын

I think you're confusing free will to Choose in the flesh and free will to Choose in the Spirit. We can't Choose God unless he Chose us

@will95515

8 ай бұрын

You have free choice, your will is bent towards sin. It’s not neutral

@Adam_A_Christian

8 ай бұрын

God chose us as implied by the statement: He first loved us (and not just us but the whole world, also). Also necessarily implied, in Paul's using the word 'first' in reference to our responding in love to God. He's saying we aren't saved because we love God, but because He loved us enough to die for us. However, the fact He did that 'FIRST' indicates God desires and even expects a response from us to that truth.

“I will mercy who I desire and I will harden who I desire”-God

@casualgamer542

7 ай бұрын

I'm not trying to be divisive and I don't want to make any assumptions but are you quoting Romans 9:18 from a Calvinist perspective? I don't disagree with that passage, but the broader context of Romans 9 is about God’s promises to Israel, not individual salvation. When Paul speaks of God showing mercy or hardening, he’s referring to God’s dealings with nations (like Israel and Egypt) for the larger purpose of redemption. The hardening is not seen as an arbitrary act of God, but a judicial act in response to stubborn disobedience. It’s also important to note that the hardening of the heart is often understood as a strengthening of one’s resolve in the path they have already chosen. So in the case of Pharaoh, for example, God’s hardening of his heart could be seen as God giving Pharaoh over to his own stubbornness. Note: The Hebrew "kavad or kaved" (H3513) - meaning heavy (weighty). The word "kavad" that is used in Exodus 20:12 for "Honor" (kavad) your father and mother" is also the same word for Pharaoh's "hardened" heart. So another way to say it would be that God "honored" Pharaoh's own heart. God gave him over to his own desires. If Calvinism is true, why would God need to harden or blind dead lifeless corpses who are incapable of ever coming to faith? Why would Satan come to deceive the lost to keep them from coming to the truth if they don't have any possibility to come to the truth? Seems a bit redundant.

@kevinjypiter6445

6 ай бұрын

Absolutely, 💯. Now, the crux of the statement (which you left out) is whom God desires: “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” God desires those who are humble

@j.era424

6 ай бұрын

@@kevinjypiter6445 so his love is conditional on the basis we go to him first? So Paul was walking on his way to hunt Christians, had a moment of humbling and God said “finally! Now I can save him”?

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

To offer an answer to this: @@casualgamer542 "If Calvinism is true, why would God need to harden or blind dead lifeless corpses who are incapable of ever coming to faith? Why would Satan come to deceive the lost to keep them from coming to the truth if they don't have any possibility to come to the truth? Seems a bit redundant." Even pagan Pharaoh could have complied with Moses out of prudent self-and-national preservation. God's purpose was to humiliate the lifeless gods of egypt and to make His name known by his miracles, both to the nations, and to His own people. If Pharaoh let Israel go before all the plagues were carried out, it is impossible for us to know if God's objectives would be met. But as the OP said, God is the maker and has the right to use his creation as he sees fit. As God, he has a divine and kingly right to do things that his creatures are forbidden from doing. So following Turek's logic with regard to morality (essentially to be good, God must follow his own moral law as given, i.e. do not murder, etc) is mistaken and simplistic.

@BurningTheLife

5 ай бұрын

@@casualgamer542 " I don't disagree with that passage, but the broader context of Romans 9 is about God’s promises to Israel, not individual salvation" Not completely true, he talks about the election of Israel yes, but he uses this example to make a conclusion in Ro. 9:18, he's making a general statement here which it's applied to every person in the world, that's how he made his argument, going from the particular to the general

I was predestined to reject Calvinism and Calvinists were predestined toward arguing why I'm wrong for doing so and also toward not seeing the inherent contradiction. And toward parroting the line: "You don't understand Calvinism."

@IZZY404_

8 ай бұрын

You don't understand Calvinism

@Adam_A_Christian

8 ай бұрын

Hahaha it is now a proven fact.

@IZZY404_

8 ай бұрын

@@Adam_A_Christian I hope you realize I intentionally answered like that

@Mr_Manuel

8 ай бұрын

You were predestined to give that answer…

@jozzen77

8 ай бұрын

Are you an open theist?

Predestination is a tough topic for sure, because we bring human suppositions to it. Rather than endlessly argue about what is meant by "accepting" God (did I or didn't I have the choice to freely accept or reject?), I prefer to examine what actually happen: Do I accept or not? The benefit is mine as a Christian regardless of whether or not the choice was mine or was made for me or some mixture of the two that I cannot explain in human terms. . Does the Holy Spirit enable us to believe and trust in Jesus? Yes. . Do I believe in and trust in Jesus Christ: his existence from eternity, his virgin birth, his personhood in the Triune God, his humanity and divinity that are united in the Godhead, his sinless life, his perfect death, his physical resurrection, his return on the Last Day to judge the Earth, and that by God's grace and Christ's atoning sacrifice I am declared righteous for Jesus' sake and not for any merit or works I have done, purely by God's grace? Yes. . That's enough for me to know and be comforted. . Did I have any role in that? *shrugs Does it really matter precisely how that works in a theologians' seminar? Probably not. . Paul says We are saved by grace through faith. He does not say we are saved by being able to thoroughly explain every doctrine perfectly to where everyone else who hears us will "amen" the verbiage we use.

@Mr_Manuel

8 ай бұрын

Paul doesn’t but Peter does 1 P 3:15

@buddy_132

8 ай бұрын

Thing is if we’re going to reach the lost these questions must be answered. In Calvinism, the majority of the world cannot accept Christ because God doesn’t want them to accept Him and wants them to burn in hell. If Calvinism is false this does an immense disservice to the gospel message as instead of saying “Christ loves everyone and died for everyone” it’s now “Christ died only for a few select people and the rest are doomed.” The unbelievers will rightly see the Calvinistic God as unfair and cruel for not giving them any chance at all. As a Christ follower you need to answer these questions for you are preaching a completely different gospel than all of the early church fathers and may be in danger of hell fire for your disbelief in Jesus’s words. As Gods words say ‘those who preach another gospel, let them be accursed.’

@TimothyFish

8 ай бұрын

Predestination isn't a hard topic if we stick to what the Bible says about it. Romans 8 says that he predestinated those that he foreknew. The problem is that people assume that "those he foreknew" means people that he chose before the foundation of the world, but when we look at the context we see this statement: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Which is followed by, "For whom he did foreknow,..." This whole thing about predestination, etc. is a statement to Paul's readers about why they know that all things work together for good. He isn't including his readers in the foreknown ones, rather, he is pointing to the foreknown ones. A better understanding of the phrase "For whom he did foreknow" is "For these he knew in times past." So, if we look at the saints in the Old Testament, we see people that he knew in times past and we see that they were saved, even thought Jesus hadn't died for their sins yet. Because the sacrifice of Jesus was a future event, their salvation required that they be predestined to be conformed to his death. Because we can see that God saved them even though Jesus hadn't died yet, we can know that all things work together for good for those who love God.

@sidwhiting665

8 ай бұрын

@@Mr_Manuel I would not equate giving an answer with "being able to thoroughly explain every doctrine perfectly to where everyone else who hears us will "amen" the verbiage we use." . If you are able to give such a perfect explanation that everyone who hears you agreed.... you should get into mission work and get the whole world converted. . I'm joking with you a little, but I don't think you understood what I said, so I made a most ridiculous restatement of it. My point is we can explain all we want and even be fully faithful to scripture, but someone is going to (bare minimum) going to see a difference nuance to it, possibly based on another scripture. Sometimes, I think it comes down to a matter of emphasis. We can make two biblically correct statements, but if we over-emphasize one over another, then there can appear to be a contradiction, even if there isn't.

@sidwhiting665

8 ай бұрын

​@@buddy_132 yes, that's one challenge I see for a true, die-hard Calvinist. The "Good News" of the Gospel isn't a good news to most people because it sounds like -- no matter what happens -- you're already either fully saved or fully condemned. That's the only message I have for you: you're in or you're out. "Congrats or it sucks to be you" is the message. I don't see how that helps people come to faith in Christ. It would be like showing up for a game and the ref says, "You guys can play all you like, but we've already chosen the winner. Play by the rules or cheat, play hard or sit down and twiddle your thumbs... it doesn't matter." Ummmm.... yeah. I wonder if there are any Calvinist missionaries, because what they do as far as witnessing doesn't impact anything. What do they tell people about the Gospel? I imagine this scene: "Hey Larry, just wanted to tell you that either God loves you and is sending you to heaven, or you're doomed and destined to burn for all eternity. I'm not sure which and neither are you, and nothing you do, say, or think will change that. Have a nice/terrible day!" Therefore, I don't see predestination as the same as pre-chosen in the sense that God picked out all the winners and losers before he even created the world ...even though (and yes, I'll probably get ripped on for this) the Bible SAYS we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, and a holy nation. All that is true (it's in the Bible, right?), but like Inigo Montoya says, "You keep using that word (predestination); I do not think it means what you think it means." . I think it means that God knows the end from the beginning, and since he is outside of time, past, present and future are all one in his mind. We humans think of destiny as something that will happen in the future, but to God, our "destiny" already has happened, is happening, and will happen.... yes, that's confusing. But it would be like if all of time occurred in the blink of an eye. In the church I was brought up in (LCMS), we were taught that we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone, and this is not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. True. I was also taught that the Holy Spirit grants us the power to accept the Gospel message, but we can resist the spirit. If, in our sin, we reject the Gospel and walk away, then that is our condemnation. But if we do not resist (passively submit), does that contradict the fact that we are dead in our sin? I don't think so. A dead man brought back to life can simply go on living. His body will breath; his heart will beat; his synapses will fire. But that takes no effort (choice) on his part....and yet... he's ALIVE!

God's choice is that we should have a choice.

@stegokitty

28 күн бұрын

So is it your choice that DETERMINES your salvation, or was it God's choice of you (having nothing to do with anything good in you, nor in seeing a future good thing done by you) that which DETERMINES your salvation? What is the difference between one sinner who hears the Gospel and believes and another sinner who is the twin brother of the aforementioned person, and they're both sitting on the same pew in the church, who also hears the same Gospel, and thinks it sounds like the worst thing possible? Where lies the difference? Is it internal or external?

@Eben_Haezer

26 күн бұрын

@@stegokitty I don't know why you have to make the simple so complicated. God's giving you a free gift. Whether a person accepting it or rejecting is not predetermined as you presupposes in your question. God let the person decide. Did that person deserve it? No Did that person earn it? No. Did that person did any work to get it? No There are cases where convicted criminals have been offered pardon by governors but have actually rejected their pardons. Courts have determined that a pardon is valid only if the prisoner is willing to accept it. Likewise, Christ offers each of us the gift of forgiveness and eternal life, but just because the offer is made does not automatically make it ours-we must choose to receive it.

I love Frank Turek because he’s an apologist who is easy to understand and who speaks in very simple terms.

@arthur_tttt

8 ай бұрын

Yes he is for the simple

I’ve use a lot of his points when I evangelize. Just started putting them on my channel to the surprise of my current subscribers.

@hunterhestekin7420

8 ай бұрын

I'm subbed!

“God is so sovereign that he can get his will done through our free will” That sounds like an extra complicated way of saying the same thing calvinists say. I believe divine sovereignty and free will is a mystery in the same way the bread and the body is a mystery.

@Samy-sx6kn

8 ай бұрын

Yes. It’s a mystery. The Bible tells us this : God is sovereign and elect and ordain people to the internal life. (John 6, John 15:16, Romans 8 and 9, acts 13:48 And: Men has responsibility. He has response, make a decision… like in 2 Corinthians 5:20 To remove on or the other is changing the gospel PS: I don’t like the term „free will“, even Paul said: For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing (Romans 7:19)

@austinytube

2 ай бұрын

It's actually not the same at all. Frank is saying that God is so smart and so powerful, that He is able to achieve His will through our choices. The Calvinist will say that we don't even make any choices, because God made them for us. Here is an example: You are playing a game of chess, but you are able to go forward and backwards in time, so you know every move your opponent is going to make. This is Frank's viewpoint. But the Calvinist viewpoint is that you literally place your hand on your opponents hand and force him to move the piece where you want it.

@oracleoftroy

10 күн бұрын

@@austinytube _"The Calvinist will say that we don't even make any choices, because God made them for us."_ That sounds like something anti-Calvinists say about Calvinism, but I've never heard anything at all like that from any Calvinist or any Calvinist confession. Take the Westminster Confession. It spends a whole chapter outlining its affirmation of human free will. It shows how God establishes human freedom and the liberty and contingency of second causes by what he ordains. It asserts that God sustains and upholds creation in his providence such that it allows events to play out freely or contingently. It says we come most freely to God, being made willing by grace. If Calvinism is false, it needs to be shown false based on what they actually claim. Christians shouldn't lie or spread lies to make Calvinism seem worse than it really is. At some point, these blatant lies from anti-Calvinists need to be corrected least people believe they are coming from false teachers who don't love Christ enough to obey his commandments, particularly those about bearing false witness.

@austinytube

10 күн бұрын

@@oracleoftroy I do not believe I am bearing false witness by having theological debates. I hope you’re not suggesting that anyone who contradicts Calvinism is bearing false witness. Especially since Calvinists only comprise about 7% of Protestants (3% of Christians worldwide). I think there’s a good reason why that number is so low: it contradicts over 2000 years of Christian theology, and it also seems to contradict the Gospel itself - especially concepts like a “Special Elect” and Irresistible Grace. Scripture is clear that people can fall away from God’s Grace (John 15:6, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1) and that God’s grace is not limited to a few, but is for everyone (1 John 2, 1 Timothy 2, 2 Peter 3:9). But who am I to interpret Scripture on my own? Even Jesus told the people to listen to the Pharisees because they had the authority to interpret Scripture (Matthew 23:2-3). So we must look to the Church to help us interpret what Scripture means, and as I said, 97% of churches teach that Calvinism is false.

@oracleoftroy

10 күн бұрын

@@austinytube My hope is to remind God's people that we are called to a higher standard. Not everything we read on the internet is true. Calvinists have been very good about laying out their beliefs in rather detailed confessions and holding to them for centuries. They serve as an excellent witness to establish any charge one wants to make against Calvinism. But there are a lot of false charges that are made and repeated that otherwise good Christians get caught up in and repeat when they should double-check for themselves before repeating them. The confessions aren't strawman. If a charge were brought based on a careful reading of the claims made in the Westminster Confession or the Three Forms of Unity, I think that would be well worth paying attention to. But charges based on the same repeated lies, whether intentionally repeated or not, get tired and weaken the testimony of the one repeating them. Even granting that it is false or unpopular, it doesn't give Christians the right to bear false witness about it. They confess what they confess, and if what they confess soch obvious error, all the more reason to hold them to their confessions and show where they fall short than to make up charges against them. That anti-calvinists seem unable to make a charge without negligence towards our claims shows how unlikely it is that they are in major error. As for history, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Canon of Orange, a church statement written 1000 years before Calvin was even born, yet we see consensus within the church around the very "Calvinist" doctrines people ferl so offended by these days. If it is an error, it is an old one, not something new.

It is well to notice, too, that Scripture never speaks of election or predestination to a place, heaven or hell. Scripture does not speak of the believer as having been “crucified, buried, and raised with Christ back in the eternal ages.” Election in the Scriptures is to holiness, and to Christ-likeness. C. F. Hogg

@thechristsknight7758

8 ай бұрын

Only God knows what choices all of us will ultimately make in the end. It is, therefore, hubris for us to assume that we _know_ whom God has or has not deemed "salvageable". Our one and only goal in the matter is to TELL people of God's Salvation. Whether they accept it or not, is between them and God.

@joker-qs3nd

8 ай бұрын

​@@thechristsknight7758you are being an calvinist with this reasoning

@dannywilliamson3340

7 ай бұрын

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (Eph. 2:13 KJV) Sounds like I've been chosen.....elected......to salvation and heaven.

@thechristsknight7758

7 ай бұрын

@dannywilliamson3340 "From a certain point of view." This speaks to God's omniscience in regard to probabilities, but we, as mere mortals, cannot say who will or will not be saved. We can and must only tell others how thry can be saved, the choice is theirs...

@dannywilliamson3340

7 ай бұрын

@@thechristsknight7758 Let go of that word "choice." It is God's providence in election. And as our Lord said, ALL whom the Father draws / calls / elects WILL come, and none of them will be lost. (John 6:37) Once God spiritually awakens the dead reprobate and replaces his heart of stone, that man realizes his need for a saviour and willingly comes running to the throne of grace.

“God does not act in an arbitrary way nor in defiance of the human will when he draws people to Christ. Someone once tried to persuade me that God has chosen some people for salvation and chosen other people for damnation. Such an idea is monstrous. God does not arbitrarily and sovereignly damn the greater part of the human race into an existence they did not seek, on terms they did not select, … just in order arbitrarily to send people to hell for not choosing a salvation offered only to the elect. That may be some people’s idea of God and some people’s idea of salvation, but such concepts make God out to be a tyrant worse than any in the history of the human race.” John Phillips

@Rik88TV

7 ай бұрын

Rom 9 will answer that question. 😉

Hey that’s me!! I’m glad that my question led to the production of this video. I’m still a calvinist though🥰🥰

@wannabewoodworker9705

8 ай бұрын

Titus 2:11 Election deals with service

@ultraman3014jc

3 ай бұрын

Paul reiterates a Psalm in Romans when saying, "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” Romans 3:10-12. Either this is EXTREME hyperbole and some do have the capacity to choose God, despite John 6:44 saying no one can come unto the Son unless the Father draws him, or its an accurate statement on man's will/desire and fallen nature. Also, if it was ultimately up to us to choose, then we would have a reason to boast (and that's something that bothered me long before I learned about Calvinism. If we chose the correct choice on our own, shouldn't we then receive praise and boast on our own merits?)

@austinytube

2 ай бұрын

@@ultraman3014jc Couldn't someone boast that they are part of the "chosen elect"? Saying something like, "God chose me but didn't choose you" - sounds a lot more boastful, compared to, "I made a personal choice to turn my life around and follow Jesus. And anyone who wants to can follow Him also."

@ultraman3014jc

2 ай бұрын

@@austinytube The difference is that there's nothing in me, in any of us, that's worth saving. We all deserve the wrath of God. If God is gracious and merciful enough to save me, then what is there to boast about in regards to myself? The only thing I bring to the party is the sin that needs cleansing. Also, no Christian, at least none that I know, go around telling people that God didn't choose them and that they're a lost cause. Unlike God, we can't see into people's hearts to determine whether or not God is working in them. And just listen to your wording: "I" made a personal choice to turn "my" life around. Doesn't that sound a lot more man centered than God centered? "You" decided to turn "Your" life around, so it sounds like you have reason to boast. The only difference between you and a nonbeliever, in this case, is that you were either smart enough or were able to humble yourself enough to turn your life around. Again, doesn't that sound more "me" centered and less "God" centered?

@austinytube

2 ай бұрын

@@ultraman3014jc I agree with you that there’s nothing worth saving in us. I’m not denying that. But I’d rather believe that God is so loving and gracious that His gift of salvation is available to everyone. And no, I have nothing to boast about just because I accepted a free gift. That’s like someone boasting about “breathing air” - anyone can do it. Well you might say, “of course you choose to breathe air, or else you’ll die.” But my response to that is the same: if we don’t choose to cooperate with God’s grace, then we too will die in the afterlife. Despite the “boasting” argument, just think how depressing it is to assume that God would condemn people to hell before they are even born. What’s the point of life then? There’s a reason why most mainline churches don’t believe this.

Dr. Turek's answer is unsatisfactory because even in his understanding of God, God still offers salvation to those whom he knows will reject him (which was his hangup with Calvinism). God still created a universe where he knew people would reject him, and calls them to repentance and punishes them. In both, God is still the ultimate cause of one's salvation, because he willed to create people who would and wouldn't choose him. That's not much different than Calvinism. In the bigger picture, the free will element becomes a small semantic piece.

Thank you for your willingness to share these valuable insights! Yes we are BOTH Chosen & Free!!!

@anthonybaca2387

8 ай бұрын

So you sound like you are boasting in that YOU chose of your own free will. .... "it is the GIFT of God, lest any man should boast..."

@caleb.lindsay

7 ай бұрын

@@anthonybaca2387gifts are offered not forced. gifts are not something someone can conjure through their own will. they are either offered and therefore receivable or they are not offered and no amount of will can conjure them. calvinism believes in forced gifts and forced reception of gifts. study the nature of man under calvinism (hate God and will literally willingly jump into the pits of hell to avoid Him) and how God deals with man in Calvinism (forcibly overrides the same man's will to love Him when he would willingly dive into eternal torment to avoid Him). can't square the round peg. no man can boast because God offered all men the gift and no man's will could have ever forced God to have done so. it's entirely and completely of God.

This is one of the highest debated topics in the faith I’ve come to the conclusion to just preach The Gospel

@jfudman

8 ай бұрын

Unfortunately Calvinism affects the way people preach the gospel gospel

@gaa_sonofgod

8 ай бұрын

@@jfudman The Gospel is simply the power of God through Jesus Christ unto salvation to everyone that believes. Doesn’t have to be anything complicated.

@chrismachin2166

8 ай бұрын

@@jfudmanUnfortunately Arminianism affects the way people preach the Gospel. The Bible makes no sense from an Arminian point of view. Look at Charles Spurgeon sermons,there are plenty to find,they preach the Gospel with the sovereignty of God at the forefront of his preaching.

@chrismachin2166

8 ай бұрын

@@gaa_sonofgodRepentance and Faith are a gift from God. But unfortunately many Christians want the final decision to be man’s and accept Gods hands are tied until the all powerful human decides to come to Christ.

@gaa_sonofgod

7 ай бұрын

@@chrismachin2166 I believe that, but The Gospel is what I stated in my comment above and the only thing that we can do to receive God’s grace is believe on Jesus! 🙏🏽

Thank God now I've finally found the answer 🙌🏻

But bible makes it clear that we cannot choose God because we were dead in sins. No one can come to Jesus until he was drawn by the Father. The one who initiates the action of believing is not us coz by nature, we cannot and we will not choose God because we are unwilling, plus the fact that sin takes residence in our lives.

I am really glad to hear Bro. Turek say these things. Didn't know exactly where he was on Calvinism. Essentially "Free Will" does exist in all humans.Mike Winger has a video on the achilles heel of Calvinism. Don't know all about Winger but that video is good.

@wecanhackit

6 ай бұрын

Use your freewill to abstain from sin...

@GabeGarsia

6 ай бұрын

Wingers awesome

@scotthinzman7698

3 ай бұрын

Calvinists believe in free will.

@AngryPig1

2 ай бұрын

@scotthinzman7698 no one truly has freedom of choice under calvinism

“Just because God knows what we’re going to do doesn’t mean he is causing us to do it” The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps Lord is always in control

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

Yes, this verse perfectly goes against what Turek is saying.

@AP-jz1bx

6 ай бұрын

Question is how does he establish the steps? Ahh think more deeply about this verse.

@DDNTheStruggle

6 ай бұрын

@@AP-jz1bx … u tell me how the creator of the universe establishes the steps of the creatures he has created? Because the way you talking seems like you don’t believe that

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

@@AP-jz1bx some people would love to make "God establishes his steps" to say "man establishes his own steps" lol sometimes it just means what it says!

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

@@AP-jz1bx are you thinking of God actualizing the world where free creatures do what he wants?

As a Calvinist myself, I think we often use the term "free will" incorrectly in this conversation...or at least we talk past each other because we're not clear about what we mean by that term. Turek rightly points out that Calvinism teaches that we will never choose to be saved unless the Holy Spirit chooses to give us the gift of faith. But if our "will" is the part of us that desires things, the issue is not that our "wills" are unfree, the issue is that our wills are corrupt. Our wills are perfectly free to desire whatever they desire. The issue is that, by nature, our wills do not and will not desire Christ. On Calvinism, our wills aren't forced or coerced into rejecting Christ; they do so freely of their own accord. So again, the issue is one of corruption, not freedom. As far as the contradiction Turek mentions, I think he significantly oversimplifies the teachings of scripture. It's true that certain passages (like God wanting all to be saved), on their own, seem like a challenge to Calvinism. But there are many more texts in scripture that challenge the idea that God chooses us because we chose him.

@sollysplace4456

7 ай бұрын

I’m a Calvinist too and I think Frank misunderstands what we believe Because of total depravity of man, the will is completely tilted towards sin and the will simply can’t choose any other…and in that predicament, man is a culprit instead of a victim, man in his own doing brought upon himself this enmity with God by his fall Without God giving new life in the sinner and opening his eyes to the treasure that Christ is, man will never ever choose Christ, not even in a million years…it’s only after God gives life to the sinner and releases him from his own misery and bondage to sin that finally the sinner puts his trust in Jesus, hence we also say as Calvinists, regeneration precedes faith, meaning new life comes before choosing to trust and follow Christ The bondage of the sinner’s will to sin means his will is not free, but Frank wants us to believe that anyone has an ability to choose God and nowhere in the bible do we see that being taught We all have an ability to choose everything else but not God, for us to choose God in genuine faith, God and God alone needs to work it in us Salvation is of the Lord, we contribute nothing to it…

@parkerwatson3962

7 ай бұрын

So good

@user-df8kb7eu2z

7 ай бұрын

Yes I agree with you also, and would like to add that Romans 9 is a grate chapter for this discussion. It seems to me that in this chapter it explains that, Gods choice is sovereign no matter how we might perceive it. Also, when someone question's the will of God than read Romans 9:19-25. All respects to Frank, who I politely disagree with.

@davidhodges6201

7 ай бұрын

If people are born in original sin, they did not choose it. According to doctrine they cannot not sin. If they cannot not sin they cannot be condemned for being sinners. This is the dilemma for Calvism. The only way to be able to condemn sin in original sinners is to give them a choice out of it, God then starts to haul them out as a result, with the end result predestined to be like Jesus. This is the teaching of Rom ch3 the cross was a necessary demonstration of God's justice either way. Rom 9-11 is a discussion about a Jewish misunderstanding of election, which calvinists have similarly misunderstood the other way around. The Jews were elected to bring forth the Christ for the blessing of the nations via Rom ch3, ut that election is not an election to salvation, which is the gospel for all. So then according to election the Jews are still loved and elect but according to salvation for the time at least they have become enemies. The whole of Rom ch9-11 is heading to this conclusion.

@craighoekema8609

7 ай бұрын

@@davidhodges6201 Thanks for engaging, David. I agree that on one level, saying someone "cannot not sin" sounds like they're not responsible for it. However, when you consider the reason we "cannot not sin" is because we have such wicked desires, it becomes more apparent why this inability to 'not sin' is still compatible with us being culpable and condemnable as sinners. Calvinism doesn't teach that original sin makes us automatons who sin without any control over our behaviour. It teaches that our desires are so unrelentingly perverse that we do not desire goodness enough to pursue it exclusively. Hitler was not a victim of the fact that he hated Jews...he was culpable for the fact that he hated Jews. Similarly, I'm not a victim for loving myself more than I love God or my neighbour...I'm culpable for it.

Thanks for so clearly communicating this!

I like Leighton Flowers on Calvinism. He often points out, how could a good God hold people responsible, while withholding their ability to respond?

@christking85

8 ай бұрын

God is taught to be logical, good and all loving but to believe in all five points of Calvinism you have to disregard that.

@christophdewarenne9309

8 ай бұрын

@@christking85 God is not all loving. He's also Holy and Righteous and Just, and there are many other attributes about Him than love. Sit down, until you truly know who God is.

@thechristsknight7758

8 ай бұрын

Only God knows what choices all of us will ultimately make in the end. It is, therefore, hubris for us to assume that we _know_ whom God has or has not deemed "salvageable". Our one and only goal in the matter is to TELL people of God's Salvation. Whether they accept it or not, is between them and God.

@ConstantChristine

8 ай бұрын

Calvinism has created an unholy God. God created and predestined you to go to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it, sorry you’re not chosen. It sounds like a mean girls club and not a biblical teaching at all

@dante44

8 ай бұрын

Yup agree Mr flowers is awesome and help me see where Calvinism was incorrect biblically and very extra-biblical in its thinking.

The key to this that the Holy Spirit must come to us whether Calvinist or Arminian, I don’t think we can arbitrarily decide to believe without the Holy Spirit being involved.

This question comes up a lot on this channel, and I used to really push back against Dr Tureks responses mostly because it seemed to rely on informal reasoning and cited no scripture, but I can appreciate that this is getting a little bit more theologically robust. I still believe that God is the one who initiates and empowers us to believe based on the words of Jesus in John 6, and that we are saved when we believe, and that God is the one who guarantees our salvation, but I can appreciate that other people may disagree with me on those points and still believe in the sovereignty of God. Excellent video.

@arthur_tttt

8 ай бұрын

Turek is the clown who said he will try to prove God without the bible. He's a joke

@Tylerstrodtman

8 ай бұрын

@@arthur_tttt Uncalled for, but oh well haha!

@Zaloomination

6 ай бұрын

How is this an "excellent video" if he doesn't answer the woman's question about calvinism in the way a calvinist would answer it? IMO it's a very misleading video!

@Tylerstrodtman

6 ай бұрын

@@Zaloomination Because it's a big improvement.

Amen! Thanks Frank. Great explanation

@Samy-sx6kn

8 ай бұрын

For simple minded people

She started with her presuppositions and affirming them as absolutely true, thus begging the actual question that she asked. Sad to say this is the pattern with just about all Calvinists. God bless you brother Turek

@DougWarner25

8 ай бұрын

How do you prove the law of non-contradiction exists?

I have found understanding God's timeless nature has helped me better grasp predestination and free will and how it all works together.

@bobbyrice2858

8 ай бұрын

I like to pose logical questions from a biblical perspective because often we reject predestination from a human perspective, thinking that we understand God well enough that he wouldn’t do this or that. The question, however, should be posed from a biblical position. Can those DEAD in sin by means of human will respond to God? IF SO, display, scriptural context demonstrating this. The system might seem unfair but you cant rationalize John 6:44 any other way. It’s not like you choose God and he rejects you. If you’re wanting God right now, your drawn by the father. But context will always defeat the opposition to this point and it’s human arrogance, and human will that discredits from a human perspective rather than a biblical perspective. As I said, context …defeats …every single time. It’s honestly a mystery why it’s like this. But trying to reject the dogma and these verses simply because you don’t understand it is heretical because you’re basically rejecting aspects of God just because you don’t understand him. The perceived idea of free will is really just human will and any defining aspect of true free will is only available in the realm of the believer with regards to obedience, and that’s only to appoint when you account for conviction of the Holy Spirit. If God just let us exercise, freedom of choice, we would choice our way to death by means of unfiltered sin. The unregenerate are against God, they consider the word of God foolish and are blinded by the god of this world to the light of God. The unregenerate unbeliever is of the flesh and the flesh is of darkness. The unregenerate isn’t capable of producing light. INCAPABLE. It would take God to illuminate them. Their own self will is in capable of seeing anything. If human will before the draw of God was capable of believing in God, then human will could unravel salvation, because the presumed idea here is that human will possesses supernatural power paralleled to God, which would ultimately be capable of removing salvation. You cannot inject human logic of what God is and then deny human logic that breaks apart your own logic. You’re basically dividing your house against yourself. Gods will is not random. But don’t confuse your need to quantify God with the truth and reality of scripture. Just because it doesn’t make sense doesn’t make it any less true. I don’t serve “my God”, I serve the God. That’s an important distinction, because if you quantify attributes of God to your standards, then you missed the point of his actual attributes.

@stephenkeen6044

8 ай бұрын

@@bobbyrice2858 Yes, I understand the Calvinist position and I showed in the other thread scriptural evidence of how sinful men can choose to respond to the draw of God (who draws all men) or resist and reject Him and their judgement is bound to that (John 12:32, 46-48). _"you cant rationalize John 6:44 any other way."_ If you look at the original Greek, you see that it says that "God saves", not that His will does. It rejects the idea that this "birth" is like a normal birth, decided by blood, desire of the flesh or the choice of others (as happens when parents choose to have a child), highlighting that it is not a natural birth, but a supernatural one, performed by God. One of the largest issue with Calvinism is understanding the effects of the fall and that is where understanding the heritage of ideas is critical. There are a number of carry-overs from Catholicism into the thinking of the reformers that were not yet "reformed" back into their biblical shape, two of which were the nature of man and original sin. Read what scripture says about these without "traditional" preconceptions and you can get closer to a biblical understanding of the nature of man before and after the fall. When you examine scripture carefully, you see that the Calvinistic definition of "total depravity" does not accurately describe the state of sinners. Likewise you don't find "limited atonement". Without these, there are no pillars for "Calvinism" to stand on. It misunderstands and misrepresents both men and God, removing any foundation for accountability of man (or the meaning of love, particularly in regards to the summation of the Law as provided by Christ) and raising "Sovereignty" above Righteousness, Justice and ultimately, Love. We must use scripture to interpret scripture, not tradition or preconceived notions.

Bible also says We love God because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19). So by Gods act is the reason we love him! Not by our random choosing we’d never love God if he didn’t cause us too. The carnal mind hates God

English is not my maternal lenguage so i wish this channel have subtitles in spanish, because sometimes i get confused by what these type of questions are all about. I`m a Roman Catholic but i have learn a lot of Christianity with Dr Turek and Dr Craig`s videos.

@TimothyFish

8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is confusing even for those of us who speak English as our first language.

@chrismachin2166

7 ай бұрын

@@TimothyFishRead the Bible ,then you will understand Calvinism.

@TimothyFish

7 ай бұрын

@@chrismachin2166, I have read the Bible, multiple times, and I didn't find Calvinism in there.

@chrismachin2166

7 ай бұрын

@@TimothyFish Did you find a TULIP ?

@TimothyFish

7 ай бұрын

@@chrismachin2166 , no, TULIP isn't in there either.

We're sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. No one is sealed until they believe the gospel. The Holy Spirit witnesses but doesn't seal anyone until belief. Belief is our part. It's something we must do we are commanded to. The proof of that sealing is evident in belief. Someone goes from unbelief to belief. They must hear the gospel and believe it. It's not a magic moment of coincidence. God will give opportunity and even push you to hear and study and believe but it's on us. Love isn't forced you choose.

@mattr.1887

8 ай бұрын

So your belief saves you.

@dannywilliamson3340

7 ай бұрын

Until He awakens you spiritually, you don't even realize that there is a Creator and that you desperately need His mercy. Faith is a gift of God.

beyond words. brilliant.

I struggle with the idea that God needs our help or our approval to save us. How could a good God allow people made in his imag to condemn themselves to hell? God is good, and he pulled me out of darkness when I didn't deserve His kindness. God is just when he doesn't allow unrepentant sinners into heaven. If your child is running into traffic, you stop him rather than let his free will destroy him. We will never fully understand the mind of God and His ways. I would love to see Frank or Leighton Flowers debate James White.

I was a member of a calvanist church for a big portion of my life. The thing that really shut me off was people, in the church, would say they are saved. And "once saved, always saved." Since God has chosen us from the foundation of the earth, then we are so secure in Him, that some people will use that to say... since I'm saved, I can sin against you. Cause I'm so ingrained in God.. that I can't lose my salvation.

@soledisciple

8 ай бұрын

If you are predestined as the scripture teaches Paul still says that doesn't mean we should go on sinning. So the issue you had with certain church members has nothing to do with predestination. The same would apply with a born again believer who says they were not predestined but chose to be saved. Then they could say since they are saved already they have free license to sin because their covered by grace. In both scenarios predestination is not the problem. The problem is the nonrepentant attitude of self proclaimed Christians who are disobeying ephesians that commands believers to love others above themselves.

@amattson6578

8 ай бұрын

The calvinist theology of once saved, always saved is simply the evidence that you are saved is that you are continuing to repent daily. The armenian theology that you can lose your salvation doesnt make sense to me because if someone becomes saved than goes back into their old ways and never again repents then they probably were never saved in the first place. If you are a true convert yes you will still stumble in sin but you will always be waging war against your sinful ways and becoming more sanctified in Christ.

@soledisciple

8 ай бұрын

@@amattson6578 That is true and Jesus said he would not lose one of his sheep. So that's proof you can't lose salvation unless your an imposter.

@ironmatto3

8 ай бұрын

Don't worry mate, same experience here. Calvinists think they have a licence to sin, they're nothing short of false converts. I left mine and never looked back, they're just like the Pharisees and hypocrites. Funny how a dead heretic word is put over Christ's in their evil theology.

@amattson6578

8 ай бұрын

@@ironmatto3 calvinism doesnt teach a license to sin but in fact teaches the exact opposite. If you think youre saved but go on sinning then your conversion was probably never real to begin with. Where as the calvinism theology teaches that if youre saved "He who started a good work in you will finish it" and the evidence of your salvation will be in your changed new life of daily repentence and conforming to be more like Christ.

_"When Ephesians uses the word 'predestined'... it doesn't mean you didn't have a choice. It means that once you've made the choice, it's guaranteed"_ That doesn't sound like what Ephesians is saying at all. "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will". That sounds like God is making the choice, not the believer. Frank says "Just because God knows what we are going to do, doesn't mean he's causing us to do it". I agree, but that excuse only works if God is a passive agent - observing only. In the Ephesians passage, _God_ is doing the choosing, according to _God's_ plan, according to _God's_ will. _"I know the sun's going to come up in the East tomorrow, but does that mean I'm causing it to come up in the East? No"_ It does if you are the creator of everything who literally set the sun, and everything else, on that trajectory. _"No matter what universe he creates, he knows the outcome... so when he elects to create this universe, as opposed to any other universe... he knew you would believe and Richard Dawkins wouldn't... but you are freely believing based on your free will."_ Our choices are heavily influenced by surrounding circumstances. So, God created this universe knowing exactly what you would choose, based on the circumstances that he chose to surround you with. He could have chosen to create a different universe, with different circumstances, in which different people would believe or disbelieve. That's God SELECTING ahead of time who will be destined for salvation and destruction. You may feel like you have free will, but ultimately you are just God's puppet in this scenario. I agree that Calvinism is a contradictory mess, but Frank's ideas about this subject are just as bad.

@Rik88TV

7 ай бұрын

Rom 8:30 uses the word predestined “proorizo” which means decide before hand. That is the importance of the original language. That is the same word of Ephesians 1:5 The problem with free will is that it limits the power of the Gospel to Salvation, it makes Gods glory and power to change the heart limited, and makes you wonder, how great and sweet was the Christ you found that you end up changing it for the passions of the world? How he was not able to preserve you? Doesn’t John 6:39 promise that he will not lose nothing of all that he has given him? This is why 1 John 2:18-20 address this false Christianity of I was save and left and save and left. When they leave was because they were never his. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Glory be to God that I will not have to continue the rest of my days doubting my salvation, because that is a real torture. What can be more freeing that knowing I am His, and that creates in my heart a change of desires, thoughts, life. His grace is beautiful.

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren”- Romans 8:29 this goes along with the doctrine of election.

@strawberrymilkshake112

4 ай бұрын

I think it means he saves those who will believe in Christ

@AVB2

4 ай бұрын

@@strawberrymilkshake112Sure does. God gave them the faith they needed to believe in Him.

Amen and God bless

Excellent Answers Dr Frank Turek. I found your comments very helpful in refuting ridiculous claims of calvinism.

@rolysantos

8 ай бұрын

Notice, the first thing he did was answer with a philosophical argument. IF "Free Will" is not true, THEN God is immoral! No sir! WE are immoral and THAT is the very problem! We DO have free will! Free will that comes from our "NATURE" in ADAM! And our will is to do what WE want to do, just like our father Adam did! The ONLY thing man's free will is good for is turning us AWAY from God! Adam had ACTUAL free will because sin had notentered in yet. What did Adam do? He disobeyed God! Israel was the ONLY nation given God's laws and statutes (Psalm 147:19-20) What did Israel do with their free will? They disobeyed God! They went AWAY from God! "ALL we like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turne his OWN WAY." Gentiles were allowed to "Go their own way" (Acts 14:15). God PURPOSELY overlooked their times of ignorance (Acts 17:30) And what was "their own way?' AWAY from God! The problem is not that we don't have free will. The problem is *THE FREE WILL WE HAVE TURNS AWAY FROM GOD BY NATURE* (Ephesians 2:3) Just as a snake can do whatever it WANTS to do, and DOES exactly what snakes want! What it CANNOT do is "choose" to have the nature of a harmless kitten! Likewise, those in Adam cannot CHOOSE to want to seek the thing of God. We do not want to, by NATURE (1 Corinthians 2:14) "Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." Jeremiah 13:23 That's right, we can no more "choose" what please God (doing good) then an Ethiopian can change his skin or a leopard his spots!!! Look at Hebrews 8 where God tells us what was wrong with the OLD Covenant: 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 *But God found fault with THE PEOPLE* and said: (Q: What was wrong with the people???) “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when *I WILL MAKE* a new covenant

‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:18‭-‬21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬ [18] So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. [19] You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” [20] On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? [21] Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

Often taken out of context. Rom 9 is not talking about narrowing down the scope of salvation to just a few chosen people. Rom 9 is actually broadening salvation. In context, the Jews here in Rom 9 are angry that God has opened up salvation to the gentile "dogs" and Paul's response to them is that just like a potter has right over clay, God has a right to make salvation accessible to the gentile "dogs" and that the Jews have no right to question God's decision to broaden the scope of salvation even if they were "God's chosen people". Calvinism hijacks this verse and inserts the individual person in as the pot and bases an entire theology on this concept.

@Bulldurham20

8 ай бұрын

Isaiah 55:11; John 3:27; John 17:2; Romans 9:16; 1 Corinthians 3:6-7; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Philippians 2:12-13; James 1:18; 1 John 5:20. I suppose Calvin "hijacked" all of these also?

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

@@Bulldurham20 Simply listing multiple verses isn't proof in any theological discussion and I think you know this. You'll have to argue how these verses clearly and explicitly teach the points of Calvinism. You have the burden of proof.

@Bulldurham20

8 ай бұрын

I have no burden of proof but any way, believe what you are convicted to. Have a good one 👍

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

@@Bulldurham20 You have the burden of proof if you are making the claim Calvinism is taught by Scripture. If you don't want to have a civil discussion about it, that's ok, you can leave it as a Calvinist "mystery".

I really look at Gods omniscience(as the state of knowing everything) that means he sees every single possible action and choice that we can all possibly take, and he’s gives us the freedom to CHOOSE which one of those infinite choices he sees, that actually makes history and is on the timeline.

See also Dr. Michael Heiser's discussion of the term "elect."

Both are true at the same time. The bible teaches both! Frank proved it during this speech while trying to prove that Calvinism is wrong. If God knew the end from the beginning before He created us then that means that He knew who would reject Him yet He created them anyway! Why would He create someone that He knew He would send to Hell forever even though that person would willingly reject Him? For His own glory. Both are true.

@Dkhoward94

7 ай бұрын

I just assumed it’s because God made the nature of mankind have the ability to procreate. Yes God sees all and knows all, however it’s mankind’s free will choice to mate and bring new people into the world, those new people are still given a choice though God knows what they are going to choose. I could be wrong but that’s just one idea on it

@mattdillon4398

7 ай бұрын

@@JimmyHolt-ji8hz You still haven't explained how God can be all knowing and create people that He didn't know were going to Hell. Either God is all knowing or He isn't.

@mattdillon4398

7 ай бұрын

@@JimmyHolt-ji8hz You're not telling me anything I didn't know. If you read my original post you will see that I stated that both are true. I believe the same as you do.

@tommysuriel

2 ай бұрын

​@@mattdillon4398There is a difference between knowing and causing, God just created them. They themselves rejected Christ by their own free will, therefore they're reponsible for going to hell

@mattdillon4398

Ай бұрын

@@tommysuriel I agree 100%

yes we have free will but we wont choose God in our natural state...unless God regenerates our heart. We didn't choose Him, He chose us. "as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love" Ephesians 1:4

@dadd75

3 ай бұрын

Ezekiel 33:11 New International Version 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ 1 Timothy 2:3-6 New International Version 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. We all have 'Free Will' to make a 'choice' to follow God or reject Him.

Amen, well put frank.

GREAT ANSWER!!!

Basically, only God knows what choices all of us will ultimately make in the end. It is, therefore, sinful hubris for us to assume that we _know_ whom God has or has not deemed "salvageable". Our one and only goal in the matter is to TELL people of God's Salvation. Whether they accept it or not, is between them and God.

@mattslater2603

8 ай бұрын

Please. You can't even show God to exist, bud. May as well talk about the ethics of being a leprechaun

@thechristsknight7758

8 ай бұрын

@mattslater2603 There is a bunch of evidence of God, which you mught predictably argue aren't just to keep saying we're wrong. Wanna see it? All you have to do is look...

@BuffBoy2.0

8 ай бұрын

@@thechristsknight7758 Most people I've talked with are intellectually dishonest with the existence of God. By all means tell people online, but people are a lot less keyboard warriors when its in person and they have to answer and think for themselves.

@bobbyrice2858

8 ай бұрын

Amen. Can those dead in sin by means of human will respond to God? The system might seem unfair but you cant rationalize John 6:44 any other way. It’s not like you choose God and he rejects you. If you’re wanting God right now, your drawn by the father. It’s honestly a mystery why it’s like this. But trying to reject the dogma and these verses simply because you don’t understand it is heretical because you’re basically rejecting aspects of God just because you don’t understand him. The perceived idea of free will is really just human will and any defining aspect of true free will is only available in the realm of the believer with regards to obedience, and that’s only to appoint when you account for conviction of the Holy Spirit. If God just let us exercise, freedom of choice, we would choice our way to death by means of unfiltered sin. The unregenerate are against God, they consider the word of God foolish and are blinded by the god of this world to the light of God. It would take God to illuminate them. Their own self will is in capable of seeing anything.

@wannabewoodworker9705

8 ай бұрын

John 6:44 -> John 12:32

Would love to see Frank debate Dr James White on Predestination and Election

@dannywilliamson3340

7 ай бұрын

Frank would go work at Walmart after that.

Powerful stuff.

I’m not certain that Dr. Turek answered her question, at least not with Scripture, other than a few proof texts. He uses all sorts of human reasoning to try to explain why he thinks the doctrine of election is wrong, but doesn’t deal with the actual scripture that “confuses” people about it. Several passages in Romans ought to be explained, such as the description of us being dead on our sins (not sick, or unwilling, but dead), or the passage about Jacob and Esau and God’s choice not being based on anything either had done since it was made before they were born. Even if we disagree with the doctrine of election for all believers, we still must deal with it in Jacob and Esau as a minimum. Does Dr. Turek believe that God is voluntaristic because he loved Jacob and hated Esau based purely on His own sovereign choice?

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9

So I’ve had this question for a while and it also seems like John MacArthur (who is very well known in the field of the Bible) has a very different perspective. In his study Bible, he writes that only those predestined come to Jesus. He says how Jesus said “only the ones my Father wills can come to me” which is supposed to mean that we can only put our faith in Jesus if God allows it. And he also points out that atheists and the others who reject Jesus do so because they literally don’t have the ability to accept Jesus since God has not given them the ability. MacArthur notes that Peter recognized Jesus as God so soon because God had opened Peter’s eyes to it and granted him the information before anyone else. And those that would scoff at Jesus and never come to Him do so because they aren’t predestined and don’t even have the ability to since faith comes from God. MacArthur uses Jacob and Esau as an example of predestination since before they were born, God had already chosen Jacob to be the carrier of His promise and had already appointed Esau to be sinful which is why God says “for Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated.” But MacArthur still records that even though people God hasn’t chosen don’t have the capacity to be good since they aren’t allowed to by God, their sinful actions are still from their own sinfulness so their divine punishment is still just and God hasn’t forced them to be sinful. I don’t know what the objective answer is for sure, but I believe God is good and just in everything so my own misunderstanding/misinterpretation of His morality doesn’t make me believe He is immoral (since we get our morals from Him in the first place). I just use any lack of knowledge on the matter and say “I know if I see something that seems morally wrong from God, it’s just me not understanding enough.” So if anyone has any verses to cite against the idea that sinful people condemned to hell still had the ability to come to Jesus, please let me know.

@timmckenzie9542

8 ай бұрын

MacArthur, whom I greatly respect, certainly can twist scripture in the area of Calvinism. The bible nowhere says that Jacob was predestined to be "saved" and Esau was predestined to be "lost." MacArthur says this the Bible does not. It does say Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. (Remember Greek language does not have words for "love less" or "love more", so ie, hate is used). But why does the New Testament say this? Esau sold his birthright... his inheritance. The certification that he was born and Israelite. If you were not an Israelite in the OT then you were not a child of God... Esau abandoned the faith. MacArthur cannot wrap his mind around the abandonment concept.

@AFewPages

8 ай бұрын

Well put

@Mike-ne8eb

8 ай бұрын

MacArthur is a wealthy man. Don't take advice from him.

@shadowspector3611

8 ай бұрын

@@timmckenzie9542: Yeah, I asked my dad when I was a kid what the verse “Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated” meant if hate is as bad as murder and murder is against God’s moral standard. My dad’s answer was”God can do anything he wants. He is not subject to His own law. His law was given to us and God has the right to break it if He wants because He is God.” Which made somewhat sense to me at the time but as a more mature Christian, I am confused if God is the standard of good and the Ten Commandments are the moral standard of acts never to perform, how is it that God does things that go against the moral standard? (Once again, my comments are not to “debunk” God but to understand Him more.) Also I’ll add that I know people are fallible while the Bible isn’t so anything a person says needs to be backed up by an infallible source to be objective. I recognize the translations “errors” like with Genesis 6 when it says God regretted and repented His actions while the original writings said “God was grieved” and not that He made a mistake. So I am genuinely curious on how the translation choices fundamentally change certain interpretations and beliefs.

@doublethebenjamin8185

8 ай бұрын

The passage about Jacob and Esau isn't about the two brothers, but the tribes that they each formed that had at that time become nations.

Great response!

Love that... Guaranteed!

If we choose God then merits go to us but if God chooses us then all honour goes to Him. If God does not choose us, we will never believe.

@joshbohn2884

8 ай бұрын

When discussing matters of faith and grace in theological discourse, a common point of contention arises concerning whether faith is a work that individuals can merit or if it is a divine gift from God. In response to the notion that faith might be merited, the following argument is presented. It highlights the crucial role of God's grace in enabling faith and the universal accessibility of this grace to all of humanity. This argument is intended to demonstrate that faith, far from being a meritorious work, is a product of God's grace, and individuals who choose to accept it do so because of the grace enablement provided by God. The premises of this argument are as follows: Syllogism: 1. If God establishes a system that allows all of humanity to freely access faith, then the act of belief and faith cannot be merited, as this system is contingent upon God's grace. 2. All of humanity has equal access to God's grace, enabling them to choose to accept or reject faith. 3. When individuals choose to accept God's gift of grace, they do so not out of merit but because it is dependent on God's system of grace-grace enablement.

@somerandom3247

8 ай бұрын

And if he already knows the future, then there is no choice.

@dan24293

8 ай бұрын

@somerandom3247 We had a choice as God is outside of time so it is an illusion that we have no choice.

@joshbohn2884

8 ай бұрын

@@somerandom3247 While I appreciate your viewpoint, I respectfully disagree. If Libertarian Free Will (LFW) doesn't exist, and if everyone's actions are meticulously determined, as Calvinism teaches, it implies that God is ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world. Moreover, this, in turn, portrays Him as the author of sin - which contradicts scripture as a whole. First, it's crucial to recognize that God's knowledge of the future does not necessarily negate human free will. God's omniscience means that He knows all things, including the choices humans will make. However, God's knowledge does not determine those choices; it reflects His infinite wisdom and understanding of the world. Second, God's foreknowledge, rather than restricting human choice, can be seen as the result of His eternal perspective. From God's timeless vantage point, He knows what choices humans will make, but this doesn't mean He causally determines those choices. Human free will allows individuals to make decisions independently, while God, in His infinite wisdom, knows how those decisions will unfold in the temporal realm. Therefore, while God's foreknowledge includes knowledge of the future, it doesn't infringe upon human free will. Instead, it represents God's perfect understanding of the choices humans will make without imposing determinism. This perspective allows for divine omniscience and human free will within a Reformed theological framework.

@mattr.1887

8 ай бұрын

How do you know all of that?

“I think God is so Sovereign that He can get His Will done through our free will.” Spot on. The thing that Calvinists seem to miss is that, in fact, it is THEY who hold a lower view of Sovereignty. To a Calvinist, God isn’t Sovereign enough to be in control if creatures have free will. To a non-Calvinist, God is Sovereign regardless of how free the will is.

@allaboutapologetics

8 ай бұрын

It depends with what you mean by free will because Calvinists do not deny that the will is free, rather that it supersedes the Sovereignty of God i.e. salvation is unconditional from God to man, but it is conditional from man to God (this violates the law of non-contradiction)

@dmbsituation

8 ай бұрын

What does free will mean?

@mattdillon4398

8 ай бұрын

That's not true. Most Calvinists I know argue that both are true at the same time. God sovereignly saves and never apart from the will. How, you ask? I have no idea. Frank believes that he has to have a logical answer for everything like many non Calvinists do but we don't have to! Think about it, scripture tells us that God wrote our names in His book from before the foundation of the world but also tells us that He loved the whole world and doesn't want anyone to perish. Why would God create people when He already knew they would reject Him and He would send them to Hell for it? He created them anyway! How does that make sense? As Christians we get in very heated arguments and Calvinists are even called "heretics" for things that both side cannot possibly understand! We need to stop it.

@mattdillon4398

8 ай бұрын

@@allaboutapologetics Not true, Calvinists argue that God sovereignly saves but never apart from the will. We are told that our names were written in His book "from before the foundation of the world" and we are also commanded to "repent and believe in the gospel". Just because we don't understand it does not mean that it's not true. Both are true at the same time! How? I don't know.

@allaboutapologetics

7 ай бұрын

@@mattdillon4398 What you are arguing for is called Molinism and not Calvinism Notice that the doctrine is not called Unconditional Election/Conditional Election, it's simply Unconditional Election

Nailed it!

I would love to be able to go to one of his talks, lectures or discussions if ever near Orlando Fl.

“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭13‬:‭48‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

@wannabewoodworker9705

8 ай бұрын

Acts 18:6 Tasso Antitasso

But that's just it Frank, He does give us the freedom to choose but because of total depravity we won't accept the offer and God knowing this graciously chooses some of us or none would be saved.. No one gets what is not fair because, first of all, fairness is decided by God, second we all deserve hell and so whoever gets hell gets what is fair BUT those that are the elect, that God chose before the foundation of the world, and thank you thank you thank you Lord for doing so, get more than fair, they get grace. The offer of salvation is to all and it is a legit offer but because of our sin nature, like a cockroach that runs when the light is turned on, we will not go to a sinless God unless drawn to Him and the elect, those chosen, those predestined, exactly like the Bible says, are drawn in by the Holy Spirit. God gets ALL the credit.

@classact9557

8 ай бұрын

Then by that logic, an elect individual was never in any danger of being sent to Hell before coming to faith in Christ. If Calvinism is true, then an un-believer who is among the “elect”, will be sent to Heaven if he dies in a car wreck before coming to faith in Christ. You see how contradictory and outright blasphemous that sounds? And also by the Calvinistic logic, you can’t say people “won’t” come to God when Total Depravity indicates a measure of inability. Meaning they “cannot” come to God. You can’t have it both ways. It’s either “they cannot, or they will not.” It is not, “cannot because they will not.”

@CanuckGod

8 ай бұрын

@@classact9557 Regardless of whether or not Calvinism is true (I do happen to lean towards a Calvinistic soteriology and I do think it is supported in Scripture, but I can't say for certain whether or not it's true, and I don't think anyone will know for certain this side of heaven which is correct, and as such we shouldn't be arguing so much with each other), your example makes absolutely zero sense. Assuming a Calvinistic view of salvation, if one was one of the "elect", he or she would only die in a car wreck AFTER coming to faith in Christ, and if they hadn't come to Christ yet, then they wouldn't be one of the "elect". I will say, belief and trust that Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins and acceptance of that gift is FAR more important than whether or not you agree or disagree with Calvinism or Arminianism (which is much more of a secondary issue), and we'll see members of both groups in heaven and the New Earth.

@mattr.1887

8 ай бұрын

How do you know that?

@natedogg1979

8 ай бұрын

​@classact9557 someone who is among the elect wouldn't die in a car accident without faith in Christ.

Wow! This was great!

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Predestination and Election is biblical. God’s ways are not our ways and His thoughts are higher than ours. The elect receive mercy and the wicked judgment. No one deserves anything but the wrath of God if you are in Christ be grateful and share the Gospel as commanded- God will do the rest. Let’s not let a root of bitterness arise in us but make allowances for each other’s faults. We will know or it won’t matter when we stand before our Father. ✝️👑🤍

@glennjohn3919

8 ай бұрын

Predestination and election are biblical, just not in the way Calvinists like to define it. In Ephesians 1 it states that the faithful in Christ Jesus are predestined to be adopted, redeemed, etc. It does not say that that certain individuals are predestined to be in Christ Jesus. In other words those who accept Christ are promised all the spiritual blessings Paul mentions. Furthermore Ephesians 1:13-14 states that after belief we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Regeneration occurs after faith not before. Romans 9 talks of the election of Israel, Paul is quoting Malachi with regards to the nations of Edom and Israel. It's not discussing electing one to hell and one to heaven. Read Romans 11:28, the elect that is spoken of is Israel.

4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, - every free Willer ignores this sentence Of Ephesians, because it’s the description of predestination. That sentence describes salvation “in Him” Salvation comes before adoption as sons and daughters

@genie2348

16 күн бұрын

Jesus Christ is the chosen one...the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. When we are "in him" we are likewise chosen. Easy-peasy.

@Objectivetruth9122

15 күн бұрын

@@genie2348 so,.. were you in him before the foundation of the world? Before you were born?

@genie2348

15 күн бұрын

@@Objectivetruth9122 The corporate body known as the church (those who have been grafted into the true vine which is Christ Jesus) has been predestined to both service and salvation before the foundation of the world. I became part of the church (the body of Christ according to Cor. 12) by faith in the redemptive work of Christ and his sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection. Only Jesus Christ is the "first born" and "ONLY begotten" Son of God. We are adopted into the family of God only through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross. If we as individuals were in Christ before this salvific faith, there would be no need to be adopted...no need to be "born again".

@Objectivetruth9122

14 күн бұрын

@@genie2348 predestination doesn’t mean already accomplished, but what God has preordained will come to pass! The golden chain in Roman’s 8 explains this. So we were chosen to be in Christ, in his church as you say” and Upon us putting our faith in him which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit by God’s will“ - read Jesus and Nicodemus about the rebirth- we are grafted into his family. With this understanding you give God full glory for salvation , if you focus on “free will” you put the focus on you! Who deserves the glory!

@genie2348

14 күн бұрын

@@Objectivetruth9122 I never said predestination means "already accomplished". My comment was in response to your question as to whether I was "in him before the foundation of the world"...i.e. before I was born (which some might argue indicates something "already accomplished"). I was explaining to you that the meaning of Eph. 1 is that God's plan for those who are "in Christ Jesus" was predetermined, but it says nothing indicating that God has predetermined certain individuals to be "in Christ Jesus". Paul was addressing those who were already part of "the church"..."the saints who are at Ephesus". Paul assures them that, by being joined to Christ by faith, their predetermined destiny is adoption into the family of God. IN UNION WITH CHRIST, they are made "holy and blameless" in the sight of God. (verses 4 and 5) It's been pointed out that the phrases "in Christ Jesus"; "in Christ"; in him" and "in the beloved" appear 10 times in just the first 13 verses of Eph. 1. It is abundantly clear the purpose of Paul's epistle to the church at Ephesus is to assure them of God's promises to those who are IN CHRIST, not to tell them that God chose them for salvation but chose their neighbor for damnation. It all begins and ends with Jesus. Calvinists get so caught up in their interpretation of the first 5 or so verses of Ephesians 1 that they forget all about the rest of the chapter, which actually tells how an individual comes to be "in Christ". Let's take a look at Eph. 1, verses 13 and 14: 13 AND YOU ALSO WERE INCLUDED IN CHRIST WHEN YOU HEARD THE MESSAGE OF TRUTH, the gospel of your salvation. WHEN YOU BELIEVED, you were marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-to the praise of his glory. So you see, Christ was CHOSEN before the foundation of the world...the plan of redemption through Christ (and the establishing of a group of people redeemed for salvation and called for service) was put in place before the foundation of the world. You were included WHEN you heard and believed the Gospel and put your faith in Him. I do agree that the role of the Holy Spirit is integral to salvation. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict sinners and to convince them of the truth when the gospel message is heard. However, that does not mean that everyone convicted will accept God's gracious offer and chose to make Jesus Savior and Lord. The Bible is clear that it is possible to both "quench"/suppress (Thessalonians 5:19) and "grieve" (Eph. 4:30) the Holy Spirit. Both Psalm 94 and verses in the book of Hebrews (3:15;4:7) and warn us "today if you hear his voice harden not your heart" In short, "predestination" simply means a predetermined destination. Think of it like this: Those who board a boat sailing for England are "predestined" to go to England. Those who board a boat sailing for China are "predestined" to go to China. Those who are joined to Christ by faith are predestined to adoption as they are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29) and are made joint heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). A corporate view of election not only corresponds nicely with Eph. 1, but it also does not deny or do damage to those scriptures which affirm that God desires all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Timothy 2:4; Ezekiel 18:23 to name just a few). It's the one view of election/predestination that is most "Christocentric" and best agrees with the totality of the Bible. It's the view of election/predestination that actually does focus on Jesus Christ and gives Him all the glory. Sidenote: Maybe in your circle it's seen as "taking credit" for a gift if one simply chooses to receive it with gratitude, but not in mine.

God knows who will accept Him and who won’t. He has known since before anything was created. That’s just the way it is, whether you believe it or not…God knows all things.🙏🏼✝️🇮🇱💯

Thank you

I think Dr Turek needs to read a little more Calvin. Spurgeon the great English preacher would say that if we are saved it is entirely God’s doing, if we are not it is entirely our choice. I think some things cannot be explained by human logic. There are lots of places where the scripture talks of God’s sovereign plan for each and every one, yet there are also many that speak of our responsibility. When we ignore or try and denied either we weaken the content of the book. Another example is who wrote the Bible, men or God. As contradictory as it sounds both are true.

Dude is literally quoting Paul's interlocutor in Romans 9!!!

Acts 13:48 clearly disprove Frank. We can't know beyond our feeble mind. Be humble. Just follow the commandments of God. Preach the gospel to whoever you come across. God bless you all!

What about Romans 9: 19 - 26? Genuinely I can see no other way to interpret this passage except from a Calvinistic understanding of election? I'm not saying I am absoultely right, but if someone has another way to see this please tell me.

Our Choice. Always.

Calvinism seems to be the denomination that a lot of atheists will use to argue against Christianity. A lot of what they argue points to that.

@nikokapanen82

8 ай бұрын

Calvinists are those people who want to know WHY! Yes, WHY! One chooses to follow Jesus and another chooses to reject Him. What makes one choose to follow Jesus and what makes another choose to reject Him. When you scrutinize this question thoroughly enough you will eventually come to know that the only reason why somebody chooses to follow Jesus is because God gave that person a new heart and mind that desires Jesus strongly enough to follow Him. "I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances" Ezekiel 36:25

@mattslater2603

8 ай бұрын

Nope. Your silly supernatural garbage is no more credible than a Calvinist May as well ask what's a dumber belief : Santa Claus or the Easter bunny. Just stay in the corner

@pedroguimaraes6094

8 ай бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 Are the arminians who want to have all the answers. Is is not that we want to know why, the Scripture actually give us why and we just say what it says lol. And for what the scripture does not say, are words are the same as Paul, we just accept it. You guys really need to twist a lot of Romans to say that predestination is not Biblical, specially Romans 9: 6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c] 10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e] 14 What then shall we say? 15 For he says to Moses, “[f] 16 or effort, 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 19 One of you will say to me: 20 But ? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 22 “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i] 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j] 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k] 29 It is just as Isaiah said previously: “Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l] And this is not the only chapter that talk about predestination even in Romans and we see it a LOT in Jesus teachings but i will not write all of it here for the sake of space but: John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Sorry but you guys just can't accept what the scripture says. You guys need to ignore a LOT of it.

@oreally8605

8 ай бұрын

Actually Calvin or not, they'd argue against Christianity regardless. Remember the atheist formula: insult God insult Christians insult Christianity = they win the argument. Makes zero sense. They'll do it every time.

@geraldbritton8118

8 ай бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 Think you might have things backwards. The new heart and mind come after you believe in Christ and His resurrection, receive forgiveness and become a child of God, not before.

When God foreknew that Dawkins would reject him in this particular world, God had the choice not to create Dawkins or this version of the world, in order to avoid Dawkins' damnation. Therefore God is ultimately responsible, even if Dawkins chooses to reject him.

@GODWORDSorg

8 ай бұрын

When people have children, knowing ahead of time that their kids would do bad things and hurt people (as virtually every human does, at some point) they ARE "ultimately responsible" because they chose to have kids. Are they also TO BLAME? No, because the only ones to blame are those who decided to do bad things. Along the same lines: if I saw you at the store, and knew that you would do bad things and hurt people (because you're a human) and I let you live, am I responsible for the bad things you do? Am I to blame? No, each of us is responsible for what we do.

@twincitydezray

8 ай бұрын

@@GODWORDSorg But the fact that the kids chose to do bad things is irrelevant because you didn't have to have them. They didn't have a choice to be here. Likewise, God foreknows all things so he has the ability to prevent every single person's damnation that he ever created by simply not creating them. So God must think that the salvation of a few is far more important than the damnation of many. Or he doesn't exist, one of the two.

@GODWORDSorg

8 ай бұрын

The fact that we had no say in being created doesn't mean our bad actions can be blamed on the person who didn't commit them. Parents aren't directly to blame for the actions of their children. If that were the case, then your bad actions are your parents' moral failures... but their moral failures can be blamed on your grandparents, and so on. All the way back to God. Nobody is to blame but God, in that case. I'm not sure that's a logical position to take. Your mother isn't to blame for your shoplifting. God isn't to blame for mine. Also: you seem to presume that God's goal is to prevent or ensure everyone's damnation. I'm not sure that's something that you can substantiate.

@mattr.1887

8 ай бұрын

God is not a human being, though. He has way more control than any human parent.

@GODWORDSorg

8 ай бұрын

What you've said is true. God could control everything, if He wanted to. The events in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, show that He doesn't control everything directly. He is the source of all things... but if He allows us to make moral choices, He is not responsible for them. We are.

What a blessing. Thanks for the bold clarity!

I'm confused as to how this gentleman is on so many youtube videos. His answers are seldom very good. I wish him well, and I say it with all do respect. He sounds like a MTBT member with a educational background from a legitimate educational institution

Arminianism is a doctrine that emerged during the era of Protestant scholasticism, while "Calvinism" or Reformed theology, is the theological consensus of the Protestant Reformation, as documented in the Hidelberg Catechism, Belgian Confession of Faith, Westminster symbols, Swiss confessions, and Canons of Dort, the latter being where Arminianism was declared incompatible with the Scriptures. When I look at Arminian arguments, they seem to me much more philosophical and even emotional than exegetical. The few verses in the Bible that appear to "point" to Arminian doctrines are explained by Calvinists on the basis of exegetical analysis, whereas I do not see the several verses in the Bible that "point" to Calvinism being refuted on the basis of exegesis. Often Arminians even AGREE with the exgetical analysis of Calvinists, they just do not accept the conclusions they point out. In short, as is the case with the Trinity, I stick with what the Scriptures point out, which are the doctrines of grace explained in the reformed theology, accepting my limitation and leaving it to better understand how things work in Eternity.

@jsmiles1991

8 ай бұрын

Not to mention that Paul anticipated the "immoral God" argument, and he refutes it right there in scripture. I love Frank, but that was a little wild.

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

Argument from authority much? Also the classic Calvinist "that's a mystery, I'll leave it up to God". Scripture does not teach Calvinism. Do you have an example where it does?

@imhypothetic4713

8 ай бұрын

​@@343jonnyscripture does not teach arminianism either, so to say you use your free will to be saved.

@pedroguimaraes6094

8 ай бұрын

@@343jonny That is exactly what Paul does in Romans Chapter 9: 9 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

@@imhypothetic4713 I never claimed Arminianism is taught by scripture. That's the difference. With any soteriology it's not a question of "which one is taught by scripture" (because none are explicitly taught). The question is rather "which soteriology best accords with the scriptural data and other doctrines we affirm"

DANGER HOLY BIBLE Bible reading can become habit forming. Regular reading can cause loss of anxiety, fear, and a decreased appetite for impatients and anger. Symptoms include increased love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and gentleness. If symptoms presist, just PRAISE THE LORD.

@Masowe.

8 ай бұрын

Bible reading while fasted as well and more prayers remembering all you have in your life even fingers, nails, hair, eyes

@gi169

8 ай бұрын

@@Masowe. 😅😂🤣 👍👍👍 Praise God...

@mattslater2603

8 ай бұрын

"Impatients" Lol Gil can't spell.

@somerandom3247

8 ай бұрын

*side effects include inability to think rationally, believing that your bigotry and hate is loving and kind, increased gullibility, and an aura of smug arrogance.

@gi169

8 ай бұрын

@@somerandom3247 so much easier to be a bigot and hateful if you are a immoral atheist.

YES!! BOTH ... AND

God is good and what he does is necessarily good. So if he decided to save some and let others follow their own path that is good!

Right out of the chute he goes to philosophy, rather than the biblical text to "disprove" the teaching that people do not have the ability in them to choose to follow Christ. With most other biblical issues, he goes right to scripture, but not on this one. When he finally does quote scripture, he reads into it.

@ForumLight

8 ай бұрын

Bingo. Some point to 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, *but that all should come to repentance.* And they say 'all means all". And yet the vast majority will not repent, which would mean God lied and IS willing that most do not come to repentance. But if he's talking about those He saves (and who knows WHEN He decided to save a person), now it's back to truth that He brings all those He saves to repentance.

@ForumLight

8 ай бұрын

And using the same "all means all" reading into Scripture: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall *all be made alive.* And entire religions are born of "every single person gets saved and 1 COR 15.22 is the proof". But we know most don't get saved, so the second "all" means all those God saves are made alive in Christ. But you are exactly right: they look at mankind's philosophies instead, and don't start with Scripture, and also ignore Scripture that shows clearly God is the one that chooses, not us.

@BuffBoy2.0

8 ай бұрын

My mind went to Romans 9 which seems to go against what Frank says in this video.

@eellis2125

8 ай бұрын

Yep 💯

@kevinburtnick7818

8 ай бұрын

John 12:32 John 3:3 John 3:15-16 Titus 3:5 1 John 2:2 Acts 7:51 John 5:40 Matthew 23:37 1 John 5:13 Romans 5:18 Luke 2:10 1 Timothy 2:3-6 Romans 11:32 Luke 19:10 Mark 16:15 John 1:6-9 John 1:12 Do you think God's glory is enhanced by tragic events..the rape of a little girl?

Frank, as you say many times, God can do anything He wants to do. And it is a mystery. Calvinism isn’t that far off the mark.

If God, at the start of creation, knew how I would respond to Him here in the year 2023, I must have been predestined by God. I freely chose Him just as He knew I would. He didn’t have to create the world the way he did, but He did. From the start He knew exactly who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. What am I missing here? I don’t understand where the disagreement is or what exactly is contradictory.

Well explained. I will save this clip

Full disclosure, albeit with hesitation which sadly should not be the case but whatever… I am a Calvinist. The problem people have with the Calvinistic understanding of free will is a lack of understanding with what kind of “free” we’re talking about. Of course we believe that we have free will to choose- we’re not robots- otherwise why would God tell US to, for example, _“choose_ this day whom you will serve,” or _“choose_ life or _choose_ death?” The “free” in free will we are talking about is about a *_liberated_* will, one which has been made free. We are born into sin with a sin nature and only desire sinful things, and since we cannot save ourselves, or our will to do sin, we need to have God “free” us (save/regenerate). This is not about the ability to choose, but with what type of nature we make our choices- freed or enslaved.

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

At first you said "of course we believe we have free will to choose [to be saved]" and then you said "we are born [unable to choose to be saved] so we need to have God save us" This is exactly what Turek is saying. These two statements contradict each other. Which is true? Either you CAN freely choose to be saved (meaning your sin nature doesn't make you incapable of deciding to follow Jesus) or you CAN'T freely choose to be saved because your sin nature makes you incapable of deciding to follow Jesus.

@christopherwilliams7905

8 ай бұрын

​@343jonny exactly and while it may be true that our sinful nature would make it impossible to live up to God's standard, we do still have the ability to say I'm gonna follow Jesus no matter how desperately flawed my effort may seem. The regeneration comes when we say yes to Jesus. Anything other than that is still not free will.

@Ooochild

8 ай бұрын

@@343jonny I said, “choose this day whom you will serve.” I did not say we had free will to choose salvation. There is a difference. Correlation does not imply causation.

@343jonny

8 ай бұрын

@@Ooochild What do you think "choose this day whom you will serve" means then? It means YOU are part of the decision of whether or not you are saved. Aka - you have free will to follow Christ. You seriously don't think you freely chose to follow Christ? You think you were forced into following Christ?

@Ooochild

8 ай бұрын

@@343jonny What you are talking about, at least in part, is work-based salvation which obviously goes against the Bible. “For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift -  not from works, so that no one can boast.” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭9‬. We have no part in our salvation, and in order to even choose life, you need a liberated/regenerated will to desire that in the first place. In our innate, fallen state we do not desire God, so we cannot choose Him, as is shown in Romans 1:18-32.

I don't know why so many people pretend that calvinism makes sense

@Kman.

10 күн бұрын

LOL, amen, & AMEN!

@Yowashpatel

6 күн бұрын

It's not about making sense. It's about what the scriptures teaches.

@Kman.

6 күн бұрын

@@Yowashpatel Scripture *IS* clear, & yes, it *DOES* make sense~~~~:) _MARANATHA!_

‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:13‭-‬15‬ ‭ESV‬‬ [13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” [14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

@wannabewoodworker9705

8 ай бұрын

Romans 9:30-32 tells you who gets mercy & the reason

You should watch John MacArthurs sermon on Man's Responsibility and Gods Soverignty. God chose people from the foundation of the earth, and decided who to save. Humans only free will is free to sin because we are dead in our sins and only choose to sin. God raises people to spiritual life whom he decided to save. It is a topic people need to deeply study to grasp. Arminianism has confused the world, but those who actually study Scripture Will in fact align with biblical soteriology ( aka calvinism) around these salvation issues.

If you dead in your sins you voluntarily choose God? Makes no sense!

@elsamusoy

2 ай бұрын

If you are dead, how is that you are writing here?

@mariavanrooyen3750

2 ай бұрын

@@elsamusoy Dead in your sins means spiritually dead, not physically dead.

@elsamusoy

2 ай бұрын

@@mariavanrooyen3750 if you are spiritually dead, how is you can love and hate?

@disreceded

2 ай бұрын

​@@elsamusoyyour definition of spiritual is way off scale

@elsamusoy

2 ай бұрын

@@disreceded do you know what is really way off scale? The heresy of calvinism.

Something many who call themselves Christians fail to realize is the fact that we are not "Sinners" because we sin, but rather, we *sin* because we *are* Sinners. A creature can and will do only what is within its nature to do, and even its apparent desire to do "good", by its own subjective standard of what Goodness is, is influenced by its sinful nature. The only way, as such, that we can truly desire objective goodness, then, is if God gives us a new nature, through regeneration, causing us to be born again. Everyone who is born once, into sin, will die twice, in their sin, but everyone who is born into sin, then is born again, of the Holy Spirit, though they die, they will yet live again, eternally. The modern concept of libertarian "free will" contradicts the very fact that we are *all* totally depraved, in the way that it states Salvation is, ultimately, our choice. So, then, are we better than others who do not make that choice? If it is indeed our choice, meaning that choice ends with us, then yes... we are better than others, and the Scriptures are left with a terrible contradiction. However... If our "choice" both begins and ends with God, not being a decision that is ultimately left to us, in the end, then we remain on the same level as everyone else, which indeed we are. God predestined us, God drew us to Him, God regenerated us through His Holy Spirit, causing us to repent and believe in Christ and His Gospel, and God preserves us in His Son, till the day of Judgement. You may be an Arminian and believe, truly, that you are no better than anyone else, no wiser, no more righteous... but that belief is not consistent with your belief in modern "Free Will". So, it's really not about God forcing himself upon us, making us like "robots" as some would argue, but rather, God making the choice for us that we lack the ability to make correctly, in our fallen state. Like Parents making choices for their children, I would argue... responsible parents, at least. Also, considering the old man dies (even if the flesh remains an issue) and we become a new creation, it could easily be argued that it's not a matter of choice at all, but of God destroying the old man and replacing him with the New Man. ... I just thought of something as well... what is "programming", except any artificial form of something's *Nature*... the argument about being robots presumes that is bad, and yet, it's the same as us all having one nature or the other, depending on if we have been born again. A robot cannot do anything that goes against its programming, and likewise, a man cannot do anything that goes against his nature. The fruit of Knowledge of Good and evil, of course, corrupted our original programming. God did not make us with an inherent desire to sin, although he clearly made us with the ability to sin, or to not sin, at the time. So, when Man ate of the fruit, his nature was corrupted, and Sin came into all the world. God predestined the means by which Man would receive Salvation, as well as whom amongst men would come to Him, through Christ, and Christ sacrifice gave us provided a legal transaction, allowing us to be pardoned, upon putting our faith in him, after having been given a new nature. Now, we do indeed have freed will. We as Christians can choose God, or choose Sin, and many do choose the latter at times, and even for seasons, before succeeding in turning away completely, and yet we will all sin in some way, and will all have things we struggle with, till the day we die, to keep us humble, but we are saved, and we strive to sin less, because of our love for Christ. So, now, the question is really this; did Adam have "Free Will" to Sin? Or did God predestine the Fall? To this, I would say both answers are true, and neither necessarily have to contradict each other; God could have, and I believe did, predestine the Fall, ultimately for His Glory, and the Good of those who Love Him and are called to His Purpose, and yet, Adam also made the choice he wanted to make, at the time. The two need not be in conflict, though many make them so. Of course, this is speaking of Adam specifically before he took the bite, after which, his will became enslaved to Sin. Long story short, Turek, for all his Strawman Fallacies, has no understanding of what Calvinism teaches.

@joelantonioperurena3863

8 ай бұрын

But why don't you answer the question asked in the video? If God really wants everyone to be saved, then why he doesn't choose everyone?

@christophdewarenne9309

8 ай бұрын

@@joelantonioperurena3863 Who says He does? Look at the context of the verse, then get back to me. Who is being addressed? What words are used, in the Greek? It is indeed true that he wants all of THE ELECT to be saved. Again, the video presents Strawman Fallacy upon Strawman Fallacy and uses scripture out of context. Get back to me when you know the context.

Calvin struggled with the idea of weakness is not having ultimate power over free will. He thought God was weak if we could override his will, I am told it is because he struggled with health issues and his flesh was weak. He couldn’t stomach the idea that we can override Gods will. But it is exemplified more times than I can count in the old and New Testament that we have free will to override Gods will, at our own peril of course

@liljohnnyjoker

8 ай бұрын

Don't you think the statement we could override God's will seem to imply that we are stronger than God?

@Adam_A_Christian

8 ай бұрын

Right off the bat, I think 'override' is a misnomer. Because God allows us to freely decide does not necessitate that we go beyond what his ultimate will is. Or as Turek put it: "God is so sovereign that he can get his will done even through our free will." - Frank Turek

@sarshanden8033

8 ай бұрын

Correct, while calvinism strongly emphasizes God's sovereignty. They actually undermines it by saying God wouldn't have his plans accomplished if we have free will.

@mattr.1887

8 ай бұрын

It may be that we're just making all of this up.

Why does God repeatedly keep a remnant for himself and not everyone?

We have free will within our pre destination 😂😂😂😂

@jacob777jacob

8 ай бұрын

Lmao

@jhabernathy690

8 ай бұрын

Romans Nine, Paul answers the same question, ‘Who are you to answer back to God!’. He’s got work to do.

@FishHaven007

8 ай бұрын

If I just know future that you will become that "something" it doesn't mean that I have interfered with your free will

@jacob777jacob

8 ай бұрын

@@FishHaven007It does. Because that means it was “planned”. Which means it’s an illusion. Think brethren.

@James-dq1dl

8 ай бұрын

I’m a Christian btw, but this is something that’s never made sense to me. I know I’m saved, but I look at all the evil in the world and wonder why. Some people are Gods children and some are not I guess. My dad was and still is an alcoholic, and you wonder why God allows certain people to be horrible and abusive and never change. But then you throw in mental illness, trauma and brain damage from alcoholic abuse and you understand why, but it’s still hard to accept. And then there’s just some people who are inherently evil. But again, brain scans show people more prone to do horrible things have brain damage.

The only problem I have with the notion of "free will" is that whomever says we have "free will" makes God subject to our choices, Scripture clearly says that God declares the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). If there's truly "free will" then Scripture must be wrong, and God has zero control over the outcome of anything. Even Jesus made it clear to His diciples that they didn't chose Him, but that He choose them (John 15:16) and Jesus also say (John 6:64-65) that no man can come unto him, except it were given unto him of His Father. It's quite evident to me that you do not know Scripture and is teaching heresy.

The Book of Sirach ( Deuterocanonical )verses mentions man has free will. 14When, in the beginning, the Lord created human beings, he left them free to do as they wished. 15If you want to, you can keep the Lord's commands. You can decide whether you will be loyal to him or not.

So he says we don’t believe in the duality of good and evil that God doesn’t just do what’s good, but everything He does is good. But then he judges God as not good if he elects some to salvation and not others. So you are then judging God by a greater moral standard???? Then he says God doesn’t influence our will, BUT once I have made the choice to believe, THEN my salvation is guaranteed? How is that possible? So I can choose to believe, but then am prevented from choosing not to believe? So then what he is saying is God DOEs influence the will of believers. His answer is full of contradictions

Calvinism is true because of the various scriptures that support it. Period.

@LawlessNate

8 ай бұрын

No scripture teaches or supports Calvinism. Period.

@toluwalasearinola2908

8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is a false demonic doctrine

Dont think he understands calvinism very well but its not a big deal

@LawlessNate

8 ай бұрын

"Anyone who points out the flaws of Calvinism must not understand it." What a meme. He understands Calvinism perfectly; that's why he's not a Calvinist.

@hartzi6860

8 ай бұрын

@LawlessNate well i only say that because of the way he was talking about it. I doubt he understands it perfectly but it really doesnt matter his viewpoint is just as valid even if scripture doesnt support it as much.

@toluwalasearinola2908

8 ай бұрын

Calvinism is a false demonic doctrine don't be so brainwashed come out of it..

Good stuff

God decides for his own good pleasure. Grace is an undeserved gift from God. Many will not accept this,they want to be in control.