Jagtiger just chilling in the back

@oddballsok

4 жыл бұрын

Jagd-Tiger

@a.t6066

4 жыл бұрын

@@oddballsok ** Jagdtiger

@du_nut_tuch_me4230

3 жыл бұрын

Jagdtiger (Hunting Tiger)

@Autechltd

3 жыл бұрын

@@oddballsok chad-tiger

@SwellAttorney38

3 жыл бұрын

Sad-Tiger :(

Everyone is ooing over the jadgtiger while I'm nearly falling out of my chair when I see the Pak Puma.

@nougan_tanker

4 жыл бұрын

Indeed, the agile Puma with a bigger gun (aka Pakwagen)! The crew may not like it as much during pouring rain... but everything is better with a bigger gun, right!? LOL! wiki.warthunder.com/Sd.Kfz.234/4

@tau-5samsara990

4 жыл бұрын

B r u h, When i saw that Pak Puma i had an orgasm

@evo3s75

4 жыл бұрын

Same here, I absolutely love all 4 Puma version but the /2 and /4 are my favorite

@eldarguardian6485

4 жыл бұрын

If You warthunder players would really be fans of "puma" You would atleast know that only 50mm 234/2 version was called by that nickname :)

@evo3s75

4 жыл бұрын

@@eldarguardian6485 yes I do, but some people call the 234/4 with the pak 40 the Pak Puma. And to be honest, I find it fitting

When I was sixteen, my friend and I drove down to Ft Knox and the Panther II was on display inside the museum. The commander's hatch was open and there wasn't anyone else around, so we climbed up and into the turret. There was a small bare light bulb illuminating the inside of the tank. I closed the hatch and we spent twenty minutes exploring the inside and traversed the turret and raised and lowered the main gun. When the occasional patron came near, we followed them with the main gun. Eventually, security came and knocked on the hatch. We were asked not to return. Good memories!

@tomdillistone8202

7 ай бұрын

... I was in cadets in the early 80's and our squad was afforded a tour of a Leopard II at Borden, Ontario CA. Of course, being a silly kid, I turned the key in the driver's hatch ... since we all had the headsets on, we could comm immediately ... everything "lit-up" inside (there were cadets in the turret as well) ... within 60 seconds, an Army NCO was knocking on my Driver's hatch (banging with something metal) and screaming for me to "get the @#$% out of there - you little $#*@" (I only heard this once I started opening the hatch) ... but WHAT A MEMORY! I was put on KP for a week for that one but I will ALWAYS remember it ... needless to say, that stunt made me a "hero" to all the cadets who'd been in the turret ... thanks for the reminder Bernard ...

when you guys only talk about Jagdtiger chillin' in the background *sad Panzer III noises

@eldarguardian6485

4 жыл бұрын

Panzer III must be my favourite tank of all, they had a very rought start when their front wasnt able to withstand even AT rifles but past that point they proven to be quite an interesting machines especially when upped to 50mm guns.

@DavidSmith-ss1cg

4 жыл бұрын

@@eldarguardian6485 - Not ALWAYS sad; some were re-incarnared as STUGs.

@noahgonzalez1882

3 жыл бұрын

There’s also a Puma with the pak75

I'm oogling that Jagdtiger in the background... Poor thing.

@ajafham2583

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah I noticed that too. What a beauty

@zamn__

4 жыл бұрын

@@ajafham2583 It's a beauty before it kills you😏

@zamn__

4 жыл бұрын

Yep😂

@synthwaveguy_2942

3 жыл бұрын

They are currently planning to build a bigger and newer museum for their tanks that are exposed to the elements. Said to be completed around 2024-5?

I first saw that PantherII was at Ft. Knox at the Patton museum. Glad it is still in good shape. Really like this gentleman, I could talk for days without being bored. Great show!

@troll4445

4 жыл бұрын

MICHAEL NAVEN me too back in 1974!

@simonkevnorris

4 жыл бұрын

Same here but in 2000 while on a trip to the USA for the F1 race at Indianapolis. Also, managed to make it to the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio on the same trip.

@anthonyhayes1267

3 жыл бұрын

My brother and I went with our dad when we heard all the tanks were leaving. Sadly we got there after the T-28 was already gone.

Mr. Doyle's knowledge is amazing and it's a pleasure listening to him.

I remember when we had that Panther 2 at Ft Knox. When we worked on it, we had to take our boots off. This was in the early 80,s. We got it running just to back it into the museum. My how times have changed.

@STHV_

Жыл бұрын

Did you use its original HL210 engine? I'm working on a 1/16 early ish Panther Ausf D so I'm curious if the HL210 sounded any different from the HL230

It's nice examples of these were kept for future generations. We should've kept all of the intact ones, they are so rare now.

See you all in five years when the KZread algorithm kicks in

Never knew there was a Panther 2

@jvleasure

4 жыл бұрын

I knew it was an idea, never knew anything was ever built!

@Anlushac11

4 жыл бұрын

Just the one hull. Due to higher weight used all Tiger I suspension and drivetrain. weighed 53 tons.

@mbr5742

4 жыл бұрын

@@Anlushac11 Actually the Tiger final drive

@Anlushac11

4 жыл бұрын

@@mbr5742 Google Panther II torsion bars. one of the first pics towards top shows Panther II torsion bars top of photo says Panther II. The Panther II torsion bars shown are single bars, not the linked dual torsion bars liked Panther normally used.

@Stuka87

4 жыл бұрын

@@Anlushac11 The Panther II was a test bed, and its suspension design went on to be used in the Tiger II. The Tiger I (H) suspension was different and used interleaved road wheels. The Tiger II (And that JagdTiger in the background of this video) used the double wheel system that was developed on the Panther II. The engine and transmission would have been a better fit for the Tiger II had they been in a position to build them.

Give him a microphone!!!!

Another VERY interesting video. Short and 'sweet'. Thank you very much.

Nice video, The panter and jagdtiger in The back needs some love🤗

@CAPNsparow

4 жыл бұрын

They already made a video about the JagdTiger

@GeneralZkar

4 жыл бұрын

@@CAPNsparow i said the needed some love, i meant that they should get them restored, not that they havent made a video

@CAPNsparow

4 жыл бұрын

@@GeneralZkar oooooh yeah especially the jag needs to get restored

I stopped by there on the way to Columbus and took a picture of the bradleys parked near the perimiter fence, I never would have guessed they would have a gem like this there.

Another great video as always! Thanks for this one, never knew they actually produced any panther ll prototypes.

What an exceptional and rare vehicle. One could not estimate its worth. Well done Sofi, what a treat 👍

They have an M103 in the background!!!

Very nice! I really like these short and quickly put together videos, even if they are outdoors with no microphone ;)

I just love these videos! So much interesting stuff and then you get glimpses of a PSW 234/4 at 1:58. Magic:)

A rare one indeed! Very cool, thanks for showing it!

Ok I’m gunna ask Santa to get you a mic set rig this Chrimbo. 😂 Epic showing this vehicle. Thanks for all your hard work & dedication. 💥👍🏻💥

@Austrium1483

4 жыл бұрын

cringe

@nesyboi9421

3 жыл бұрын

don't worry, the other guy only says that because you had emojis in your post.

Another great breakfast with my favourite show full of surprises. Thank you again.

Considering the fact that this Panzer design is over sixty years old, it's general overall impression, for me, is that of a far later concept. What a terrifying steel beast it surely must have been to it's opponents. Great video. Thank you.

@cruzinezy1968

4 жыл бұрын

Tim Rogers it's much closer to 80 yrs old in design

@KernowekTim

4 жыл бұрын

@@cruzinezy1968 Wow! That obviously makes the tanks concept and development even more remarkable. I am a mere 60 years old, and a 'baby' in relative terms to this Panzer. Obviously I am no 'expert' in the realms of armoured vehicles, yet they fascinate me: not as much as does the awesome SR71, ( more my generation ). Thanks for enlightening me though. ATB.

Yes it's a amazing vehicle I would love to see more on this panther in detail

Thank you for making this video!

Great vid, fascinating vehicle... krappy sound!

I knew that a Panther 2 was built, but I had no idea that it actually survived without a turret.

looks really strong and clean design. Outstanding ... Hannover masterpiece.

@PorWik

3 жыл бұрын

Not gonna lie, that 80mm plate looks very thin

Awesome thanks!

Fantastic. Thanks.

Wow, you’re such a trooper! You managed to brave yourself in the outside, yet the Corona Virus is still spreading. Hope you stay safe, can’t wait for more content like this.

@jangamaster8677

4 жыл бұрын

Scott Myers bro the corona ain’t the end of the world... a lot of people are still have too go work and run errands etc, myself included

@themechanic.9545

4 жыл бұрын

JangaMaster Why am I so pessimistic...

@ValentineC137

4 жыл бұрын

Aslong as you keep your distance to other people the virus isn’t really as much of a threat

Great to see a video with someone who actually knows the subject . Curious to hear that the hull is longer and has different angles ; does anyone know if the old Accurate Armour and Dragon kits are correct in this respect ?

Not sure who has better game: Soilein or Hillary Doyle. Great video!

Hey Sofilein, at 1.41 Mr Doyle speaks about the a different angle of the front plate because of the use of the tigers transmission. In Frank Köhlers Panther book their are pictures of early panther prototypes plans which show the drivers position with a stearing wheel, which indicates the the panther was also considered with the same maybach/henschel transmission as the tiger from the start. Even during the production run of panther the transmission discussions between serval institutions of army and industry never really ended. So I don't think that the angle of the front plate had something to do with the transmission choise. But there were complains about the ergonomics for driver. To Köhler its more likely that the changed angle should adress the ergonmical issues of the driver position.

I went to basic training there in 2017. My battalion HQ was across the street from this place. It was awesome seeing those tanks, but I didn’t realize how rare they all actually were. I could name them because I was an avid War Thunder player. When I got back home I did some research and didn’t know those were one of a kind. I’m kinda pissed at myself for not going back and tanking pictures after graduation.

Love Hilarys knowledge

Love your chanel Sofi! :D

Great video as usual. Never been so early

AKA: King Tiger Jr.

Give that man a medal, and a microphone, love the videos XD

I remember when most of these tanks were at fort Knox before they moved them. It's quite the impressive collection.

@robtankbuster5215

3 жыл бұрын

Years ago drove all day to ft knox to see the tanks, we were heart broken to see the tanks all gone, but told a new museum is being built in ft Benning. Still waiting for the Ft Benninig tank museum to open, it's been way to long!

@halucinator1

3 жыл бұрын

@@robtankbuster5215 I agree. Problem is, now it is so far from where I live that it would be a burden to see. I hope it is impressive when it's done.

Always nice to hear from Mr Doyle.

Gaijin be like: We removed this because it was a paper tank, and no parts were built out of it.

@Kalashnikov413

3 жыл бұрын

well, the turret and the gun model on War Thunder is different than what the actual turret and gun of the Panther II

I could listen to you two all day,the wealth of knowledge is fascinating,am sorry but I have my standards and you both show so much more than anyone else..maybe others out there,but am finicky on who I listen too.

You can see it in person IRL but war thunder still removed it. It was fit with a standard turret at first btw, it was days from getting the 88mm

You know what is even rarer than a Panther II? A fire hot tank chick. Congratulations to you, you win the internet!

Love to hear Doyle talk about the King Tiger tank

@suffern63

4 жыл бұрын

You can hear him!Well done,sir.

I can hear him just fine

Love this guy he knows his shit! Awesome video!

Awesome tank, I can't believe that the U.S. has the only Panther II in the world and they have it out side.

Ive waited so long for a video of the panther 2

Outstanding video and presentation as always. Thank you!

Germany: let improve the Panther and make it heavier. Final drives: are you sure about that?

@proboscidaefan7705

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, absolutely. Excellent design already. Considering a sufficient raw material supply and enough reliable personal to build it, not poor slave workers, who sabotaged production (understandable enough!). A vehicle good enough to successfully stand its ground.

2:41 Where's my boi Jagdtiger's tracks??

@CatsAreAmazing8187

4 жыл бұрын

Jai ShriRam stolen by hungry Russians

@politicallyinaccuratetoast4757

3 жыл бұрын

On the floor

wwoowww excellent thank you

Wait, isn't this the guy Bruce Crompton calls when he needed the chassis number for his panther tank?

And they all are at Ft. Benning? Are you able to visit the area and see the tanks? We have the Panzermuseum here in Germany and maybe some stuff in some other museums but they have some great stuff at ft Benning

I remember walking past that place all the time in basic always wondered what was in there

I never knew that the panther 2 was even remotely produced in any way shape or form! I always thought that it just existed in paper. I am blown away that there is a hull that exists

I was sure that a new turret was made for this prototype,I saw a pic of it in one of my tank magazines,it had an electric range finder or spotlight on it,and was the same basic shape as the king tiger late turret but much smaller

@Reactordrone

4 жыл бұрын

You might be thinking of the Schmalturm for the Panther F which was prototyped but never went into production.

@klingergary

4 жыл бұрын

@@Reactordrone ya it was a pencil drawing

wow, cool!

Thanks for the video Sofi. Please take me with you to this place please 🙏😊

Not the only one, we have one at a Museum in Ontario Canada at a military Base called Base Borden.

@LordDarthHarry

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry but that's not possible. There was ever only ONE Panther II ever built. What they have in that museum is a normal Panther.

You never really comprehend the sheer scale of these vehicles without seeing them in person, or next to a person

@Sofilein

4 жыл бұрын

Makes all the difference to see a tank in person. The sheer size and mass is lost in pictures and even in video footage! Honestly that's one reason why I love the tank museums, they're helping people connect and learn in ways they could never do with just books. Seeing a tank in motion for the first time changed the way I look at the tank experience personally

Thanks from Germany with an Abo.

To listen to such a knowledgeable gentleman describe the relics of WWII is sheer pleasure... I only wish Mr. Doyle's voice was recorded using a microphone of a better quality - this alone would greatly improve the listener's experience! Also, I might suggest working on the camera angles, as in some shots I feel it could be a bit further from the tank to show Mr. Doyle and the tank in question fully. I am no way an expert, just my point of view, though. Anyways, thanks for another great video! :)

i have pictures with my buddy inside the hull of this lmao

Couldn't help yourself from stealing a last longing glance on that thicc cat in the corner eh? ;) ( I would have done the same )

what is kinda puzzling is that the Panther II also had holders for Schürzen, the exact same holders as used on the Ausf. G...

Great overview of the Panther II. I saw this vehicle at APG many years ago, but it was mislabeled as a Panther Ausf A. I specifically remember it because it had the later turret and was missing the storage bins and mounts for tools.

I wonder if they considered the troops who had to drive this thing when building it. Still the same issues, I assume, with the engine access, final drive access and other features. Turret design was never completed, though there were lots of theories out there. Same gun as a Panther I. Wouldn't want to fight it, wouldn't want to fight in it.

@wirelessone2986

4 жыл бұрын

I thumbed up your comment.Was the Tiger 1 better for the crew?

@vtbmwbiker

4 жыл бұрын

@@wirelessone2986 I think so other than the hatches for the crew in front not aligned with their seats. Development of that was longer than the Panther.

Love this fella

I love the phanter II in warthunder :)

@jorgepaula8924

4 жыл бұрын

The repair cost is so expensive!

Hilary is the BEST! You just gotta love him!

Thank you for the Video Sofilein, try putting a mic onto the presenter when you can. Thank you. Crowd source the funds?

Doubled road wheels just in case there was battle damage, They would just keep rolling and the tank was a foot longer than the regular panther G. Prototype panther II vehicle .

Panther II a Magnificent Machine Indeed , Stunning at Every Angle !!! With the Front sloping Armour being upgraded to 100 mm thick! Ps it would be great if they could restore the original "narrow turret" for the Panther II , located at Bovington Tank Museum UK and fit it to this Splendid vehicle in the U.S.A. Swap turrets and display the Panther Ausf G , with chin Armour at Bovington!

@mr.waffentrager4400

4 жыл бұрын

That would allow it to stop 17pounder ap and and even Russian 100mm ap front plate

@builder396

4 жыл бұрын

@@mr.waffentrager4400 I wouldnt bet my life on the russian 100mm gun bouncing off, or the 122mm for that matter. At long range or with the vehicle in a favorable position that increases angles maybe, but the LoS thickness just doesnt get quite as high as you think it does.

@mr.waffentrager4400

4 жыл бұрын

@@builder396 122mm is too powerful I think...in theory it has less pen ...but it penned panther 1 at 2500m and 100mm could only pen it at 1500mm in testing That 's why 122 was chosen for IS tanks 122mm could pen tiger 2 front upper plate 15cm at 700mm ...so it will go through 100mm panther 2 plate ... Don't think 100mm will go through at 500m

@builder396

4 жыл бұрын

@@mr.waffentrager4400 The 122mm has better HE performance, and as heavy tanks are primarily offensive tools to take out heavily fortified position, HE performance was more important than a little bit of AP performance on the 100mm. Also, tests on German tanks directly dont give consistent or reliable results as the armor quality varied wildly, and generally are only done to assess armor quality and relative effectiveness of guns against that armor quality and thickness used by the opposition, rather than the objective capability of the gun compared to another gun. Thats where you test against your own armor plates from a production line of consistent quality.

@mr.waffentrager4400

4 жыл бұрын

@@builder396 yes...I agree on all of that but maybe the rounds were fired on similar panther plate ... Statistically 122 mm can pen 170mm armor close ranges .. But I think its too less for a projectile that moves at nearly 800m per second and weighs 3 times the tiger 's 88mm shell about 25kg round

What a pity that it isn't mated with the Panther II Schmalturm turret with saubkopfblende instead. But I think that was used for target practice in Britain. Did Bovington Tank museum actually get that damaged turret from the gunnery range at some time?

@HanSolo__

4 жыл бұрын

A private owner from the US did own this turret. It was damaged badly and then poorly repaired. They decided to leave the turret as it is. For their Panther, they managed to make a new one from scratch. The whole work was made with the original construction documentation and their piece has all the features and specs of the original one. I think the turret from Bovington is the damaged one but I don't know if the Museum owns it. I think not.

@walthanas

4 жыл бұрын

@@HanSolo__ That sounds very interesting! Do you happen to have a link to pictures or a website of that tank?

@HanSolo__

4 жыл бұрын

@@walthanas There was a TV show (History Channel? - kill me but I can't remember) about two private vendors restoring old tanks on a serious scale. First owner was from GB I guess and the second one was American. The show was followed with the work of both skipping few times from shop to shop during single episode. They were working on M4 Sherman, Panther and M10 I guess. The American owner was some quite famous person. I dont know if he is still alive. At the time of the show he was at his late 60.

@walthanas

4 жыл бұрын

@@HanSolo__ This is all I could find about the Schmalturm: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmalturm#/media/File:Schmalturm_at_the_Tank_Museum,_Bovington.jpg It states there that it is still in Bovington at the Tank Museum. I haven't been to Bovington in years, so I don't know what the current state is, but I would be very surprised to find out that the Tank Museum has sold such a unique item to a private collector.

@Kalashnikov413

3 жыл бұрын

@@walthanas bruh, the Panther II was cancelled way before Schmalturm was designed

First sofilein good video keep et up

What a cool video! Please fix the audio! And where's Sofilein? ;-)

RIP war thunder panther 2 :( You will be missed.

@CrazyDutchguys

3 жыл бұрын

that things pretty much a blueprint tank though. the 88 was never planned for it. Its really dumb they removed it though, Germany needed a good mobile tank at 6.7 that isnt premium. Panther 2 is amazing in that role. Instead they just remove it and put in some american lend lease bullshit that nobody wants. Same with the Tiger 10.5, sure its also a blueprint tank, but why remove it? Just make it an event vehicle or something. I can somewhat understand the maus, since its pretty much impossible to balance with the BR compression that Gaijin themselves caused.

@potatojuice5124

3 жыл бұрын

@The Dutchinator first off: panther 2 had a hull built with a panther A turret for testing- second, the Maus had two tanks built. Why was it removed?

@CrazyDutchguys

3 жыл бұрын

@@potatojuice5124 the panther 2 was a testbed, and it was decided to not really be used due to the weight increase it gave. But its a tank the Germans need in game, so i can see why it would be removed from a realism standpoint, but theres plenty of bullshit tanks around in game anyway, so why remove only the best medium tank for germany at 6.7? As for the Maus, Gaijin removed it because they cant be assed balancing their own game. Put the Maus at a lower BR and it'll stomp, at 7.7 its armour is garbo and it faces nothing but HEATFS. So instead of decompressing the BRs like playing had been asking FOR YEARS, they just decided, fuck you, we'll just remove it instead

Could you both do a longer talk on this tank at a later date?

The primary reason for the work on the Panther II (along with any number of other projects) was to keep the designers, engineers and skilled workforce off of the front lines.

I know that I'm writing only now but you forgot to mention that as a prototype it was made with soft steel to prove the concept with thicker all-around armour ( with the glacis plate increased from 80 mm to 100 mm and the side hull armour from 40 mm to 60 mm) obviously increasing the weight up to 50 metric tons. The other great change was the the Olvar transmission, an all-steel 80 centimetre diameter road-wheels that only overlapped (as on the Tiger II) and not interleaved and interestingly used single torsion bars that undoubtedly would have eased the production but they opted to change the tracks to the more robust tracks. One reason why the the all-steel road-wheels was never fully installed on the Panther was that it was breaking the centerline guides as it was too weak. In my opinion it was a better option saving a lot of rubber if this type of suspension and tracks was adopted (the chief drawback of the rubber rimmed wheels that kept on cracking off and couldn't hold high speed for long). I only know that for the Panther II it was planned to install a new turret, the Turm Panther 2 (schmale Blendenausführung) that had nothing to do with the Schmalturm. I never seen the drawings of this planned turret I can surmise that it would have a smaller front and a gun mantlet similar to the front of the turret of the Königtiger. Lastly I didn't know at all that it was longer! Excellent job again 👍👍

another nice tank video! one thing though, since I cannot be there I enjoy the amazing panzers vicariously through you by witnessing your enthusiasm Sofilein so its nice you do not want to take the attention from the subject but I missed seeing you in this one

i cannot believe, that these unique and priceless pieces of history are still standing in a puddle of water more or less in the open. Maybe Bovington can lease this Panther 2 and put a restored Schmallturm on it.

@HerbertAckermans

4 жыл бұрын

The Schmalturm has nothing to do with the Panther II

I thought that panther II existed only on paper:),that piece of german technics looks as could be in the military service till today,with better engine and transmission

If anyone wondering about the big black turret at the mid left, it's an M103 i believe.

@TheT-90thatstaresintoyoursoul

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is an M103. I can tell for 2 reasons. 1: It is very big. 2: I play war thunder so I know what it looks like.

@Evrimomono

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheT-90thatstaresintoyoursoul same here lol

@Sofilein

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, M103A2

Somewhere in the US there is a turret of a Panther II, so bring them together!

@Jo-uh1mw

3 жыл бұрын

sry, I mixed it up with the Schmalturm (smaller turret, lower silhouette, same weight, better protection, less production costs)in bovington

@Kalashnikov413

3 жыл бұрын

@@Jo-uh1mw bruh, the Panther II was never planned to put the Schmalturm

Panther II body... a rare beastie!

I had to download this video and watch it in a media player with maxed app sound because youtube's sound level only goes so high.

@Sofilein

4 жыл бұрын

The next will be better- for some reason it's perfectly fine on my PC and with my headphones.

@ValentineC137

4 жыл бұрын

Sofilein it seems to be fine for most people

Cool seeing a prototype used for testing. Thank you!

Anyone know what the armor thicknesses were going to be on the Panther 2 turret.

@Anlushac11

4 жыл бұрын

If produced Panther II would have entered service with the stock Panther turret. It would have eventually moved to the Schmalturm if production and development had continued.

@ingurlund9657

4 жыл бұрын

@@Anlushac11 Right, thank you.

I was so confused because I thought the title said "Panzer II" and not "Panther II".

The Anti Tank rifle round would not "Lose its energy hitting the side skirt mm plate" it would cause it to deform and tumble and hit the 40mm side plate at an angle or on its side and couldnt penetrate.

@jwenting

4 жыл бұрын

or it would just shatter, yes. Both scenarios would cause it to lose energy, of course, as a side effect.

@pkxpanz3r241

4 жыл бұрын

@caRn oof, someones mad. Corona Quarantine gettin to ya??? fuck off.

how can i see these tanks at ft benning?! I went to basic there btw LOL

I love seeing the tanks everyone is sad for the most, im just sad these beast are sitting in general

i think the bovington museum has the turret but it was used as an hard target

@Kalashnikov413

3 жыл бұрын

what? Schmalturm? no, Panther II was never designed with that turret

i think you forget about the heikendorf panther its also operational