In general people are so creative, because no matter how much evidence is present, they will still deny.

When you live a lie, all other lies are built around that lie and that's where we are with a Christian God and religion

There's a common theme with these martyrdoms miraculously the lions won't eat them, the fire doesn't burn them, the water doesn't drown them but they still end up dead!!

I was told in Catholic school in rural Minnesota back in the early sixties when I was in the second grade--a nun in a burka outfit told us it is a "venial" sin to wear shorts and a "mortal sin" to wear short shorts and that we would all roast in hell if we wore shorts shorts. So the late sixties came around and I found myself in Minneapolis where Catholic girls were wearing microskirts to communion while we males still had to cover up in church. It is the Twenty-First Century now and no one on the planet knows what a male thigh looks like.

@dorianphilotheates3769

2 жыл бұрын

I come from a place where short ‘Speedo’ swimwear - regardless of age, form, or physical condition - has always been de rigeur: I guess this is one of the main doctrinal differences between the Greek and Roman Churches, and probably also one of the primary causes for The Great Schism of 1054.

@mistressofstones

2 жыл бұрын

I know what a male thigh looks like :D

@sebolddaniel

2 жыл бұрын

@@mistressofstones Fine, show me a picture of a man and woman together at a beach with both of them in bikinis or g strings. The last time I was in Miami Beach all I saw were women in g strings with men baggy cargo shorts. It wasnt that way in the sixties and seventies..

@sebolddaniel

2 жыл бұрын

@@mistressofstones Back in Amerika males can't even find Speedoes bikinis in the pro LGBT Walmarts and Targets, and I get harassed and threatened if I do wear my one from Thailand. My friend Noey who wears a bikini said she wont go with me to the beach anymore if I wear one. So much for equality in the land of the free.

@cullenarthur8879

2 жыл бұрын

@@sebolddaniel point well made. But as a gay man, i can assure you that i have seen many a mans thigh. And more! 😉 You're right though, male bodies tend to be under appreciated and under exposed in our society. I'm all for promoting the beauty of the male body.

Christian persecution is no myth.That group of fanatics have been persecuting people both inside and outside of their faith since records have been kept about them.

@chaishalom8701

2 жыл бұрын

My Art History professor told us in my 300 level Art of Ancient Italy class that it is indeed the case that martyrdom was not as it is showcased in the "New Testament" and by the Catholic Church.

@joecaner

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaishalom8701 That is an outrage. We shall put her in the comfy chair! kzread.info/dash/bejne/eHWszcWJn6-_k7Q.html

@jordandthornburg

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaishalom8701 well that settles it then huh?

@chaishalom8701

2 жыл бұрын

@@jordandthornburg * They are the researchers on the subject. They have toured all over Italy and other areas that were once The Roman Empire. What we were told is that the ancient Christians wanted to be martyred based on records that were kept at the Colosium. They literally asked to be placed in with the animals. My research also has shown that there are many things that ,in reality things were very different than what is described in the "New Testament". For example: there were no records of great crowds following "Jesus" as told in the "New Testament ".

@jordandthornburg

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaishalom8701 dude no offense but that last comment is totally silly. There are records. They’re in the New Testament. Why we would there be any records of that outside of it? I wouldn’t expect any. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. That’s bad reasoning. Also how is your Italian art professor a “they” (is that a typo maybe?) and an expert in the field of Christian history?

The fact is you can't hold a conversation with those who disagree with you if they have cognitive dissonance, you cannot hold a conversation with them, you cannot hold an adult conversation with them

This has been extremely enlightening. So many things to think about.

I was just this evening listening to HG Tudor on youtube (a self confessed aware psychopathic narcissist and a veritable expert on narcissism) and he said and I'll paraphrase; "simply by disagreeing with the narcissist, their wounding perceives it as if you are abusing them" Narcissists cannot abide challenges to them and constantly need to assert control. - Great discussion by the way!

@joecaner

2 жыл бұрын

I suppose one need not suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder to be a Christian, but it does not hurt either. They have the "grandiosity" thing covered considering that they believe that the creator of the universe takes a pathological interest in what they believe and with whom they have sex.

@hardywatkins7737

2 жыл бұрын

@@joecaner Yeah you don't need NPD to be grandiose or be Christian. It's usually among church leaders that you find proper or mid/greater narcissists but anyone can be a narc,, and low level narcs are common and religion seems attractive to narcs because it's a community they can easily integrate with and utilise for supply and gains.

@kingdomkid7225

2 жыл бұрын

I like this conversation. I enjoy psycho analysis. Who is the “narcissist” in the thread? The apostles, Christians or anyone confident in their belief or world view? 🍻

@kingdomkid7225

2 жыл бұрын

@@joecaner it’s way deeper than that. Orthodox Christian’s believe that God takes an interest in our actions because we are walking images of Him adorning His temple (creation or earth). That our actions are a way of veneration to the creator. Through our actions we are acting through His energies or essences. That may be why Christians believe that God is connected to us and cares how we choose to act on the earth while existing as an icon of the creator.

@joecaner

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingdomkid7225 I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making, but I checked out your KZread channel, and you have a lovely little girl. Kind regards, jc

Good interview Derek. Brought up some fascinating topics. Especially the idea of a complex being ‘hardwired in’ because of how Paul writes. I enjoy your channel.

Great, great show! She is wonderful!

@matthewsainsbury1801

2 жыл бұрын

very nice show robert dad found her imformative when she narrated as a guest speaker on the bible secrets rev on history channel,he liked when she spoke on boaz and ruth in the bible,that she said quote when ruth sneaked into boazs tent and uncovers his feet shes not giving him a foot rub 😂🤣 dad found that funny ,as the interpation is more intimate,thank you robert for youre kind words toward me with what im going through❤i wouldnt mind getting a chance to talk with her personaly sometime as i found her disscussion today very stymilating on this subject of perscution in the roman empire,im glad though she struck a balance as during decius who seem to have been a brute and diocletian christians did have hardships,thanks robert

@revherring

2 жыл бұрын

@@matthewsainsbury1801 it was a great show. You can find me in the comments section all the time if you ever need to talk. Wish youtube had a way to connect to chat. You can look me up on messenger too. Im never on FB even though I have an account. Its been too toxic over the past couple years and I tend to say what I think PC or not.

@matthewsainsbury2367

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks robert ,this weekend is fathers day so il see to visit and spend time with him latervthis week since what ive been through ghost stories tend to attract me more,im going to watch francesca today of mythvison i also saw her on the bible secrets rev on history channel thanks for youre friendly words🙂🖐

Absolutely flipping amazing. Candida Moss' book "The Myth of Persecution" arrived yesterday on Friday June 10th. I have already smashed through the first 50-pages and I have to say, it's highly readable, and seems very well researched. The Christian apologist theme of "Die For A Lie" is blown away with this work. Do yourself a favour and grab a copy.

@jordandthornburg

2 жыл бұрын

What’s her best argument?

@francisgalton2678

2 жыл бұрын

Lol. Sure. 6 million copies.

It was a case of institutional Projection. Coz it was Catholics mainly and later the Christians ( there’s a distinction) who were persecuting indigenous people they tried to colonize.

@hutchison3379

Жыл бұрын

💯

This book was on my list ages ago, forgot all about it, will have to pick up a copy now. Great interview. 👍

She is brilliant and funny. It helps to turn KZread down to 75%speed!!! She is so enthused. Delightful and has wonderful insights into religious history. Cute, too... 😮

I've been a non atheist for years now. On one hand I've grown confident in my skepticism but on the other hand I've grown to love religious appropriation. So my brother as a joke bought me an ink pen that has Pope Francis all over it, when he visited Rome. So as one can imagine I was absolutely thrilled to wear my Pope pen around the Midwest where a majority of Christians believe the Catholic Church is one of the beast of Revelation. But the strange thing is that most evangelicals that I see who recognize the pope on my pen automatically treat me like I'm a pius Christian. They won't cuss around me they won't talk about lewd things, and they tend to bring up faith topics more frequently. And some of these people I've known for years but when they see presence of Christian iconography it's like a light switch turns on and the Christian personality turns on. I hate to say it... But I think I've uncovered my first magical artifact. I'm going to name it the "Memetic Quill of the Vicar".... If anybody's good with Latin translation hit me up. I'm going to engrave its Latin name on a box I made for this theurical Wonder

@simonodowd2119

2 жыл бұрын

I practice Street Epistemology, and I always hear stories of theists coming up to people and talking religion with them. I love it when JWs knock on my door and want to discuss the Bible with me. I've never thought about brandishing some religious objects to encourage this!

@pansepot1490

2 жыл бұрын

@Thom Zwiefler, if people who think that Catholicism is the spawn of the devil treat you with respect and change their behavior to (in their estimation) make you more comfortable, imo that shows that deep down most people are more decent than we give them credit for. Reminds me of the quote “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” Btw, I always turn Buddhist around Christmas. I have found that saying I am Buddhist is quicker and simpler than embarking into a lengthy explanation of why I don’t care for and don’t like it (it’s not because I am an atheist).

@Nai61a

2 жыл бұрын

Thom Zwiefler: I think there's a typo in your first sentence: "I've been a non atheist for years now." I deduce from what you've written that you meant "atheist" or "non-theist".

@littleprince8913

Жыл бұрын

I've been visiting an orthodox church and they act as what you subscribed. Seems like iconography prevents Christians from being self righteous assholes.

@panosshady6168

Жыл бұрын

Bro a non atheist is simply a theist. Why use a double negative?

Thank you derek for bringing candida Moss,on youre show today shes a very imformative lady on these biblical topics,il have to rewatch some of it but i found she explained roman persecution didnt seem to be extensive as where taught to believe i liked she struck a balance on the topic,as they where moments christians faced hardships under decius and diocletian most of all,i would sometime soon like to talk to her sometime as she described the neronic time and intrigued me the way how she described it thanks derek for the show🙂👍❤it was nice

The martyrdom bit sure sounds a lot like the Norse belief system of dying in glory being a ticket to Valhalla.

I will never believe that any of the disciples or Paul were executed because if they were early Christians would have never shut up about it. Their martyrdom would have been greatly talked about by everyone because how could it not? A religion that bases itself on martyrdom but everyone is quiet when the major players of the religion are martyred? That would be HIGHLY unlikely

Tough to swallow the truth once you have been lied to all your life about your religion .

@41:00 Yeah, so what is the point of saying that persecution wasn't everywhere but that it definitely was in force in many places? Yes, she says it's terrible where it happened, but then why does she go on to say "but it's not everywhere and it's really just that brief period"? From that you infer what? That's it's overblown? Guess what? The same can be said of the Holocaust: it wasn't everywhere and it was only a brief period on the stage of world history of a few years where Jews died, preceded however by a decade of (only sometimes non-lethal) persecution, mistreatment, segregations, etc. And so, she is suggesting what? It is good to clarify situations, but in no way does this make Christian persecution a myth. And I haven't even commented on the first 40 minutes and how her definition of what constitutes persecution is really off-base if she is looking for martyrdom only. Another thing that seems off-base are the subtle suggestions that the Christians were doing something wrong by running afoul of the pagan Roman government. Honestly, as she gave example after example I kept hearing of echoes of the book of Daniel and the refusal of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to bow to Nebuchadnezzar's statue. So what if Nebuchadnezzar wasn't targeting the Jews ahead of time? That does not mean he did not persecute them for their faith. Let's say we agree on that take of the story in Daniel. Hurray. We have arrived at a good exegesis of the passage without assuming targeting. But that doesn't mean they weren't persecuted once they refused. Now applying that same perspective to Christian persecution, how does such a situation negate the understanding of a Christian that standing for faith in the one God will sometimes run afoul of evil world rulers who want you to worship either them or their gods? Or the understanding that all cases of asking someone to sacrifice to a pagan god are truly evil and stand against the true God, and thus that it is a virtue to refuse? She referred to Christians as subversive to that culture. Okay. Our culture today actually celebrates subversive social and political movements, except they see what they are opposing as worth subverting. So being 'subversive' is relative to what it opposes and in and of itself is not an argument for virtue nor vice. But it does raise the question of objective morality, and that is a subject worth discussing.

Roman recognized rival religions, such as Judaism. It was only when you seemed a threat to Rome while worshipping your God that Rome acted against you.

@mrfabulous4640

2 жыл бұрын

No, Rome aloud countries to practice their religion after having been taken captive by Rome. However, Rome did not allow any new religion to form while under their captivity. Before Jerusalem was destroyed the Romans believed Christianity was just another sect of Judaism. However, once it was destroyed they recognized it was not the same thing and thus it became an illicit religion.

@DallasWolf

Ай бұрын

@@mrfabulous4640Not true, as Romans wrote: there’s nothing special about Jesus. There’s thousands of grifters performing low-level street tricks and claiming to be divine. Christians converted the morons. That’s how little they cared. Fact is there were tons of cults in Rome.

@AnyProofOfTheseClaims

12 күн бұрын

​@@mrfabulous4640New religions weren't allowed in captured Roman provinces? Reference needed please. It became an illicit religion after the Temple was destroyed in 70CE? Reference please, because both of these propositions are false I would like to see where you got this information from.

Such a persecuted group that one of the earliest "Popes" was a nephew-in-law of Emperor. Now to be fair he was executed, for his involvement in an assassination of the third Flavian Emperor, his wife was banished, and thier (the "Pope" and his wife's) children were named his heir. Yes much persecution

It is a fascinating and eye-opening book, loved reading it!

Maybe the Christians did more than their share of persecuting others

@user-2c5Goi0fr8id-m

Ай бұрын

_Cough, cough_ ... Mithrasts ... Classic Philosophers ... Saxon Pagans ... Baltic Pagans ... Bogomils ... Cathars ... Albigenses ... "witches", "heretics" Servetus, Bruno, Jan Hus, William Tyndale, Marguerite Porete, Thomas Cranmer . . . _Cough, cough. . ._

The problem with needing to identify the movement as Christian is that Christians were an identifiable sect of Judaism prior to to being called Christians. In GJohn we have the concern about being "put out of the synagogue" for "confessing" that Jesus was the Messiah"

Wonderful guest! I could spend a week talking with Dr. Moss. Hope packing is going well captin 😊

Outstanding interview!!

Can the same reasoning be applied to Judaism?

For modern day persecution, a well researched book is Nik Ripken’s The Insanity of God.

Is there an audio version podcast that I can listen to on the go? Or just video? Video is better for when i can sit and watch, but sometimes I want to be on the move and put my phone in my pocket and listen.

Re Christians seeking out martyrdom: when I was confirmed as a Roman Catholic in the early 1970's, part of the ritual involved the bishop slapping the confirmand on the cheek. Of course there was much speculation among the confirmands as to how hard this slap would be and so forth, to the point where the nuns had to remind us that that was not the main focus of the ceremony. The reason for the slap, they explained, was by submitting to the bishop we were showing our willingness to suffer and die for Christ. Shortly after I was confirmed they did away with that part of the ritual. Catholic religious education in the '60's was also very much obsessed with martyrdom; the nuns loved to tell us little children all kinds of gruesome and terrifying stories about the brave martyrs in excruciating detail. It was impressed upon us that we too might be called upon to die for Christ in similar manner. Nobody (and by that I mean the adults in charge) questioned whether this was an appropriate thing to be teaching first, second and third graders or what it might be doing to the mind of a particularly sensitive child. Let's just say I understand quite well the mindset of the 9-11 terrorists. What they did, as appalling as it is to the rest of us (and it should be!) it is quite logical if you have been brought up in that particular mindset. One thing I have not seen discussed is the link between "love", sex and violence and how it ties into Christ's sacrifice--and I do believe that there is an unhealthy link. There is a lot of disturbing sexual imagery connected with some of the Good Friday meditations. Not only that, all the artwork depicting the Passion narrative has everyone fully clothed from head to toe except the tortured naked Jesus. When you consider how puritanical Catholic culture is regarding sex, this is troublesome, at least I find it so, and I won't watch "Passion of the Christ" for that reason.

Jesus said that we as His followers will be hated by the world and as a Christian and a follower of Jesus Christ, I have personally witnessed in my own life, hatred from others and ridicule from others for my faith. Jesus also said that if we will acknowledge Him in front of others, He will acknowledge us in front of His Father, God. I have never been persecuted for my faith in the context of having my freedoms curtailed or my life threatened. However, I have been publicly called out at work, I have been ridiculed by friends, and this is in modern day America with all the safety we enjoy due to the rule of law. Place yourself in the shoes of those who live in places who don't enjoy the safety of laws that protect your freedom to practice your faith. Those in Iran, Afghanistan, China, North Korea, and the list goes on and on. Yes, those people are persecuted for Jesus's sake

I missed this live and am traveling at the moment. Can anyone tell me if she address Sean McDowell’s persecution/martyrdom thesis?

@hardywatkins7737

2 жыл бұрын

Sean McDowell was mentioned alot in this discussion.

@BigIdeaSeeker

2 жыл бұрын

@@hardywatkins7737 thank you. I’ll download and give it a listen on the train. Cheers!

This was awesome!

Early Christians weren’t “persecuted”; they were called to Roman justice.

@mrmaat

2 жыл бұрын

When you believe you have God’s permission and mandate, anyone who disagrees must be persecuting you.

@dorianphilotheates3769

2 жыл бұрын

mr. ma'at - Just so.

@jordandthornburg

2 жыл бұрын

For doing what dorian?

@dorianphilotheates3769

2 жыл бұрын

Jordan Thornburg - I. Sedition against Rome. II. Incitement to sedition. III. Armed insurgency. IV. High treason against the person of the Emperor. V. Blasphemy, impiety, and corruption of public morals.

@jordandthornburg

2 жыл бұрын

@Alexios I Komnenos and what’s the evidence they did that?

Amazing discussion. One of the best guests as of late

The issue with Abramic traditions is the unfortunate promise of afterlife rewards. Martyrdom is always depicted as the highest form of sacrifice and thus they will receive the highest form of reward as they enter the afterlife kingdom. Since no one can proof it, the church will keep using it for free money, labor and service.

As far as the earliest followers of Jesus, Paul, the first "persecutor" of them doesn't testify to any of them being killed. First Corinthians 15:6 "After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep." Paul says most were STILL alive and a few of the others simply died naturally.

@slimkickens

Жыл бұрын

I don't think Paul himself ever claimed to have persecuted Christians

@randy2643

Жыл бұрын

@@slimkickens Galations 1:13 "For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.", Paul 1 Corinthians 15:9 "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.", Paul

@dezznutts1197

7 ай бұрын

He literally stoned Stephen in acts.

@dezznutts1197

7 ай бұрын

And I’ll add that sleep doesn’t mean naturally don’t know where you got that from. It’s a reference to ressurection that one day they will wake up.

@randy2643

7 ай бұрын

@dezznutts1197 I'll admit it doesn’t say "naturally". It doesn't say murdered either. I think there's room for a little guess work here, if one was to be honest. For one, the Romans did not allow execution unless by them. Two, Paul never said he killed anyone. Three, Acts had him holding the coats of those stoning Stephen. Any true theologian know Acts is not reliable. Nevertheless, I'll allow Stephen. That one. It's hardly a murderous persecution. Nevertheless, Paul's on words has "most" of the earliest Christians still alive. This post is almost a year old. Thanks for elevation.

Thank you! Thank you! I bought her book and read it last year, but hearing her speak directly is just such a pleasure I wasn’t expecting today. Brilliant scholar. Thanks, Derek and MVP! ❤️

@ReverendDr.Thomas

2 жыл бұрын

Brilliant and lackluster are RELATIVE. 😉

@tumblebugspace

2 жыл бұрын

@@ReverendDr.Thomas Oh, why thank you so much Mr. Reverend, for educating me since I’m so uneducated that I don’t know what words mean. I survived narcissistic christians like yourself in childhood, who couldn’t infect me with their demonic solar worship, so you can take your narcissistic superiority elsewhere. No one is persecuting christians any more than they persecute others, especially innocent children with their terrorist ideology from the terrorist regime of ancient Rome.

Martyrs go directly to heaven skipping purgatory and or the ground or judgment day? I wonder where that theology came from? The criminal on the cross?

Wow! A very enjoyable program. Totally the opposite teaching from what I have been taught about christian persecution...

awesome, i was glad to see when her book came out. i had been wishing someone would cover alleged martyrs, following my investigations into ahistoricity of religious founder figures.

Constellationpegasus asked, "Why did the Christian’s in turkey go to the governor and ask he kill then? Was being a Christian there so miserable?" Nah... it was Christmas... and they were Christian Turkeys! ;)

My experience is that the idea that believers WILL BE/ARE persecuted, becomes a psychological proof that the believer is in fact a true christian, WHY, because Jesus said it would happen.

well done. excellent.

Derek, you need to learn more about other Christian denominations. The persecution complex is central to only a specific kind of Christianity, not all of Christianity. I wish you’d expand your view beyond fundamentalism and evangelicalism. I’m an atheist, for what it’s worth. I’ve just spent a lot of time studying the history of Christianity.

On the Tacitus reference I've been increasingly doubtful about it as it seems self contradictory and weirdly is written as if the audience aren't familiar with Christians and he isn't aware that Christians are still a thing. Then I stumbled on John Wilson Ross's argument and frankly I think he's got a case worth looking into.

I heard a lot of this information from Bart Ehrman’s lecture on early Christianity. I was searching for more information regarding this topic and came across your channel. You have some great videos. Thanks for all your work.

So your saying Christians exaggerated the truth on this topic as well?

Speaking of beautiful stories you don't believe, I'm Muslim and going through the gospels out of academic curiosity and the bit with Jesus washing the disciples' feet and telling them to love each other as he loves them. It is quite beautiful, although I find the rest of John overly wordy.

1:00:43 Surely Dr. M. is familiar with the fact that our earliest manuscript of Tacitus's Annals says "Chrestiani," right???

Книгу прочитал с большим удовольствием. Выражаю автору огромную благодарность.

well done again.

Just brilliant! Doctor Moss is direct and has her sources right. With so many reads in sight I'm gonna go broke at this point.

So, the issue isn’t claiming that Christians have been martyred, but to believe mass scale martyrdom is both true and unique to Christianity

This reminds me of the quote from Oppenheimer, "Did you ever think, for even a second, that just maybe they had something more important to talk about?"

I love the Anamation.

If they were as nasty and annoying back then as so many are today, then GGGGGGGGGGG00000000000 LIONS.

@joecaner

2 жыл бұрын

So to translate Judaeo Christianity into the NFL religion, Those who dislike Christians are Lions fans, and admires of Elisha are Bears fans...

Paul never met Jesus.

@dion5804

Жыл бұрын

I barely believe in Paul's existence. Jesus, for sure, never existed, but Paul is kind weird also. Only thing I know is "Paul" wasn't just one guy because the letters have many contradictions. I don't know.

@roddyboethius1722

6 ай бұрын

They both never existed

@LarryEngebritson

Ай бұрын

@@dion5804which ancient near east scholar agrees with your premise Jesus never existed? Let me spoil the wait. None. There is no dispute he existed. Move to a different objection as this one has been debunked time and time again.

@EclecticPerson

Ай бұрын

@@LarryEngebritson It's unknowable as a certainty whether Jesus existed or was a complete myth with there being no original Jesus/Yeshua at all. Richard Carrier makes a compelling case that there's a decent probability that there was no real original Jesus, but his view is not the consensus view, it is a minority viewpoint (at least currently). None of this matters much, though, as it's pretty clear to an objective, open-minded observer who does the proper research and reading on the subject, that the Bible is basically pure fiction, even if there was some guy named Jesus who was the kernel of reality in the story.

How does the author define "persecution"?

@unicyclist97

2 жыл бұрын

"If persecution is to be defined as hostility toward a group because of its religious beliefs, then surely it is important that the Romans intended to target Christians. Otherwise this is prosecution, not persecution. The death of a Christian or group of Christians might be unjust, but it is not persecution as it has traditionally been defined." - The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom, Candida Moss

@unicyclist97

2 жыл бұрын

Also 20:15

@wingedlion17

2 жыл бұрын

When I was a Christian the idea was that Rome, was opposed to Christians worshiping Jesus and would proactively hunt down all believing Christians. I think she is right that persecution is a proactive hunting down or making life miserable for all members of the religion or the high ranking members, by opposition to their beliefs. And it sounds like this never happened on an empire wide level the way it is mythologized by Christians.

"If I go on with this guy on MythVision, I'm never going to get off." 🤣😂🙃😂😝 Bit of an unintentional self own there.

Just found Dr. Moss's book a day ago in the course of reading David Fitzgerald. Holy shit. Brilliant work.

Just bought the book 👍

46:03 love the question about the archons! 👀👀👀

We'll see when Christ comes back, because he's coming back for a people, that keeps the commandments, and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

@surfk9836

2 күн бұрын

We've been waiting 2,000 years for his return. So don't hold your breath.

Antitheists also have a Persecution Complex. Among Xtians, I'd say its the Evangelicals that have a recently trumped-up a Persecution Complex, and the Catholics that have an old one (trumped-up for most, actual for Latinos & Irish.) Jews have actual generational trauma, but as Karen Armstrong detailed, the real thing leads to fundamentalist nationalism/tribalism too.

@michaelhenry1763

2 жыл бұрын

Love Karen Armstrong

And using it till today

I see a huge difference between Christianity and those who use witchcraft and spells for power. What are we giving ourselves over to? Lots of mind control here if we don’t stand firm here.

Also something strange with the similar stories around Jesus and Stefanos, where their defence in court is purely theological, as if that's the important thing to explain or propagate, not something that actually could show their innocense and let them survive. Christianity thus glorifies martyrdome and seems to love being victims of their own faith. Followers then sacrificed themselves in vain for the hope of having an eternal life bcz of a belief in resurrection.

It's still happening in many parts of the world...

@hutchison3379

Жыл бұрын

But not in the US. The Xtians are persecuting others.

I've read the book long ago and I agree with Derek... it is a must read... If you want to know how the persecutions really were and what they meant, this book will enlighten you 100%. Thank you for the interview.

Great interview man, really learned a lot of things. Candida Moss has my respect for doing such a good job of research and gathering relevant information for her book. That's hard work. I'm definitely buying the book!

Nothing have happened in Turkey but in NOWDAYS Turkey.. The Turks were in the depths of Mongolian steppes an those times. With love.

Earliest Christians were mosaic law, keep Kosher, circumcised Jews. But then the emperors began appreciating just how conforming and powerful it was…to control whole populations…and wanted it for themselves. Enter Paul and Josephus from stage left….which turned Vespasian Flavius and Titus into the new Christian versions (without the 3 deal breakers mentioned previously)….and who took it and modified it. Great idea, but the brutal, exclusive Jews had to go. Bingo, persecutions. And lots of innocents got caught in the crossfire to filter out the first Kosher Christians who were trying to figure out for themselves which version was the correct one. But it’s quite incredible, and unexpected, how messianic Christianity is making its return today.

What about eastern Christian Christianity . I mean the church of the east not Greek the church under Persian empire? Did they suffer persecution? I don’t know why western scholars neglect them and tried to avoid them? And that makes their research on that field unreliable ☹️

So you’re saying they were targeted because they PUT a target on their back by virtue of their actions surrounding their adherence to their faith.

Christians in North America are not persecuted but they always talk as if they are. As a matter of fact they get more respect than they deserve. There's supposed to be a separation of church and state, look at the congress and how many of them in the halls of congress make appeals from their religion. Christians in the US think they're persecuted because their religion isn't a state religion.

Daniel 7:25 The fourth animal change the hebrew calendar to gregorian calendar. Also change the law like eating pigs

What does Derek the Macedonian eat for breakfast each morning? Asking for a friend who may be looking for a breakfast of champions.

@c.a.rothph.d2448

2 жыл бұрын

Sunny v2

@stevenv6463

2 жыл бұрын

A pint of mountain dew and a slim jim

Listen: It’s CANADA, but CANDIDA. Get it? Got it? Try it. Again: Canada…Candida. BRAVO 👏🏼 #MuchLove

@josephpercy1558

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for being so candid about the spelling.

You also need to define persecution in the context of its politics and ideology. Eg Are you being persecuted if you have no freedom of speech ? Or is she just defining killings as persecution..? Modern persecution is subtle and silent in many countries based on religion race and ethnicity. Eg Would you consider it is not a persecution of the Dalits in India in class treatment? Or would you consider slavery as persecution looking at the violence employed in enslaving a fellow human being ..?

@mariomurillo7586

2 жыл бұрын

I suspect she would grant you those nuances, while still mantaining that modern American Christians are not persecuted. Afghan Christians? For sure. Japanese Christians during the Edo period? Definitely. Modern American Christians? Neh

@panosshady6168

Жыл бұрын

Persecution implies discrimination on the basis of your identity (religious or otherwise) If a law applies to all citizens equally then no one is being persecuted. If you live in a dictatorship where no one has freedom of speech, as bad as that is, it's not persecution.

So many historical errors, assumptionsand word play by the both of you. Terrible

It was the Gnostics and Arians who were persecuted, but after 325 AD Christianity [the Orthodox one by definition of the Nicene Creed] wanted to claim that they existed before Constantine imposed his doctrine in disguise, to the Gnostic bishops. Only 18 attended and the records say they were all Gnostic except Arius. So the Orthodox Christianity did not exist. It was given birth with Constantine. It was Mithraism in disguise with a sacrifice of a bull because Mithraism dated back from the Age of Taurus and the integration of the Mind of God or Logos, a mystical principle, was taught with that allegory, then it was changed into the sacrifice with the blood of the Lamb in the age of Aries, and the allegories and symbols changed with the Age of Pisces, and are morphing into symbols of transcendence that are alchemical in the Age of Aquarius.

Derek should've let her talk more

This was interesting - and I'd definitely read your book if there is more in it Candida. That said, the upshot here is you write Rome didn't care about - or care to understood - Christianity and just wanted to maintain the social order.. Shurely everyone knows that already? Your example with the Roman Governor? Well yes of course because even then, even Romans didn't want to randomly execute 1000s of people not least because of the social order point. And your suggestion Christians were executed not because they were Christians, but because they broke another law in conflict with their beliefs is a bit like saying black people didn't get into trouble in mid Century America because they were black, it happened because they insisted on sitting at the front of the bus:) I'm not a practising christian btw.

Derek: You should get both her and Sean McDowell on together to have discussion. Now that would be great.

@tsemayekekema2918

2 жыл бұрын

Am I mistaken to say Sean McDowell has a PhD?

@clarkemorledge2398

2 жыл бұрын

@@tsemayekekema2918 McDowell has a Ph.D. in Apologetics and Worldview Studies, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (2014)

@tsemayekekema2918

2 жыл бұрын

@@clarkemorledge2398 okay

@js1423

2 жыл бұрын

@@clarkemorledge2398 His PhD wasn't in New Testament, Greek or History, but in Apologetics? They give degrees for that? Kinda disappointed, since I expected McDowell to be a high-tier scholar like Dr. Moss

@rainbowkrampus

2 жыл бұрын

Great in the sense that the shade she threw at him would be on full display? I guess I have to agree.

your name should be referred as to "antonyms" with respect to "common myths!"Thank you Candida!

It’s all Greek rehash, since it was written by Greek educated writers

I’m not really aware of this commenting but i think some things i wrote have been deleted, so i will stop now since if I’m being arbitrarily edited, its not worth it

@eaglebauer944

2 жыл бұрын

They haven't been deleted. If you write several comments over a short period of time, which you did, the KZread algorithim classifies you as a spambot.

Nero was in Greece participating in the Olympics in 64 ad. He wasn't even in Rome. Christianity started in modern Turkey(ancient Geece) around 3'rd century when Jews as Roman citizens like Greeks, began populating with Greeks in there tertitory.Christianity spread with Jews for non jews as did Islam.

1:00 - Well, I think they are under attack, but not by any really significant power structures. There are plenty of people out their, though, who rail against them - I'm t hinking of people like Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, etc. Maybe Neal deGrasse Tyson as well, though he's not quite so bad as those others (or at least it doesn't occupy as much of his attention). I do agree, though, that the faith hasn't been under continuous attack from powerful institutions that can really inflict serious damage.

Although his name was not "Stephen" and some of the details are incorrect, the story of how his defense of his faith before a rabbinic court enraged his Jewish audience, and how he was taken out of the city and stoned to death, very likely describes a historical event. It had sufficient evidence for the person whom we call "Paul" to likely have fabricated witnessing the event. It is also significant that Stephen's defense to the charges, again which was likely amended and supplemented over time, followed Hellenistic rhetorical conventions, as his ancestry was Greek, which also likely infuriated the Sanhedrin. I appreciate the work of this channel in exploring the form of Judaism we call "Christianity," but it is poor scholarship to reject the notion that at least some of the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles are based on historical events, some of which are reported in subtleties (like the Hellenistic structure of Stephen's defense) that are unlikely to have been completely fabricated.

I believe the Chinese Christians in China have been badly persecuted over the years. Has anyone here in the comment section read anything on Chinese Christian martyrdom? I remember seeing a video of one particular Chinese Christian who was badly tortured for his faith whilst in prison, and he survived to tell the story (I believe he also wrote a book on his experiences). Just interested if anyone can enhance more on the real persecutions of Chinese Christians?

@penny459

Жыл бұрын

@Absalom thank you for sharing that. Appreciate.

@definitivamenteno-malo7919

Жыл бұрын

That's absolute bullshit, frankly. Christians go with anything "China Bad" and then "for sure" no one dares to challenge it.

@daiqingyuan8451

3 ай бұрын

The whole family of my personal friend in China are prosecuted for distributing Bible in a muslim district in Hohhot. Inner Mogolia, facing up to 15 years in jail. According to her, they are just prosecuted, not persecuted for being Christians.

Ehhhhhhhhh..... When was Clement's epistle written??? 🧐🧐🧐🧐

So the scholars say the gospels are not a valid source of history because its not validated by non biblical sources yet Tacitus is not valid because its not validated by christian sources?? It sounds like cognitive bias to me. Sounds like people choose to believe what they want to believe regardless of the evidence. This goes both ways. Believers and nonbelievers alike are guilty of cognitive bias.

You should do shows on Black Womanist Theology. Dare you!

To see ignorant people laughig at what they don t undersatand, for example the 4 horses of revelation, is pathetic... I feel ashamed seeing them so ridiculous.

I always find it fascinating how people who are not even 50 years old become so certain about what happened in the ancient world. Lol.

@andreasplosky8516

2 жыл бұрын

That is what you get when you actually study a topic and become knowledgeable about it.

@eternalism8274

2 жыл бұрын

I try to avoid arguing in terms of my years of experience; I remember that when I was younger, I was correct due to clear thinking, not due to decades of research. Sound reason is sound regardless of seniority. Sometimes young contributors are valued for fresh clear thinking as opposed to ossified confusion.

@andreasplosky8516

2 жыл бұрын

@@eternalism8274 If by all that you mean you are right, because you are you, and you believe what you believe, and therefor it is true, even though you lack the required education and knowledge, then be my guest.

@edward1412

2 жыл бұрын

@@andreasplosky8516 Yeah…that’s why their opinions keep changing everyday. Today, Jesus Christ existed, tomorrow, Jesus Christ never existed. I take the stories of the so-called scholars about Christianity with a pinch of salt. They can’t even agree on who Jesus Christ is.

@andreasplosky8516

2 жыл бұрын

@@edward1412 Even god doesn't have a clue.

Great interview! I wish Candida would have gone into "Jewish persecution" as well considering that is a huge part of their daily lexicon. I.E. never forget, everybody hates us for no reason, etc.

@jonstfrancis

2 жыл бұрын

Christian persecution and Jewish persecution myths seem very similar, although oddly it seems to be something the Jews have borrowed from the Christians.

@slimkickens

Жыл бұрын

There are clear examples of Jewish persecution in recent, popular memory. Antisemitism is still a major pillar of white supremacy.

Try saying that to the Coptic Christians or Syrians or Nigerian Christian's.....who cares about then i care about now