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@IsraeliteTalkTV

2 жыл бұрын

Hey, Im curious on what scholars have to say about the origins of Paul, because it seems that nobody mentions paul until marcion brought him on the scene. I mean even tertullian said that he was unknown. So, hopefully your next scholar can answer that, unless you already have a video explaining this. Because, papias, Justin Maryter never mentioned Paul

@juliannzzineilson241

2 жыл бұрын

Derek, Ilove your work. Do any of your scholars know the true identity of Flavius Josephus/Josephus Flavius. FJ is a pen name. More rabbit holes to go down....such fun!!

@ready1fire1aim1

2 жыл бұрын

Western hemisphere of our 4D world know about the Bermuda triangle and Jesus Christ. Eastern hemisphere know about the Dragons triangle and Jesus the Splendor.

@ready1fire1aim1

2 жыл бұрын

Silk Road Manichaeism Jesus.

@MythVisionPodcast

Жыл бұрын

@Iyas kelu you have obviously never watched my channel, but are listening to others talk about me.

This was EPIC! Finally a scholar that fully recognises the philosophical and literary roots of the texts. I always wondered how every minute detail gets tied to oral tradition as if no writer would be creative himself. The fresh, bold and sober perspective Dr. Walsh brings to the field is highly needed and i really hope we will hear more of her in the future. Thank you Derek for bringing us this gem of a scholar. Made my day!

@Limited_Light

2 жыл бұрын

As an ABD, I must insist that she be called DOCTOR Walsh.

@2kguzzy1

2 жыл бұрын

@@Limited_Light I am sorry, i fully agree.

@bonkyb8587

2 жыл бұрын

Great episode. Thanks to you both.

@sheltenjones1291

2 жыл бұрын

Doctor Walsh Is fuckin smoking 🚬 Jesus christ

@polarbear1713

2 жыл бұрын

@Jesus Christ Is Lord Exactly. 100 biased scholars.

Derek: I too am MythVision. Your videos are precisely what I have been waiting for, since I first was introduced to the gospel in 1964 (back then, I was only 13). So many mysteries seem to be getting solved when I hear from your guest scholars. I hope you never go away.

It's both amazing and sad that there are so fewer people that are interested in this channel and other educational vids pertaining to religion. Please tell me Americans are catching on faster than it seems. This channel ROCKS. THANK YOU

@patricianoel7782

Жыл бұрын

I’ve also gotten hooked on Ancient Aliens. Just FYI 🎉

FINALLY, something nuanced yet simple that ties it All together. Wow. She perfectly communicates the messiness and natural tendencies of human behavior so easily. Almost everyone else is hyper focused on some lense of interpretation. This is all encapsulating.

@PGB55

2 жыл бұрын

@@mohankang8062 You put stuff in your body that you believe no one has proof works??? huh?? I take the vaccine because vaccines WORK, proven to work..scientifically and statistically. Have been working for over a century. Work does not mean 100%, work does not mean perfectly immune, work does not mean you're 100% safe; never has meant that, never will mean that. You're not up on how the technology works and should educate yourself (not an insult). It's a technology and it's not perfect. The Bible on the other HAND....IS....just a book, a really amazing one...from a literary standpoint but beyond that it is a PRISON of the MIND and we mock it because people take it so seriously. It preys on peoples' desperation promising nonsense (life after death and heaven??? eeewweeh) and claiming nonsense (jesus god) and has awful morals (slavery totally cool, homosexuals totally bad). It's a giant book of contradictions (faith is all you need, NO, you need work; God will take care of everything...No you gotta do your part; you have free will but Judas did or didn't) it's a MESS. Worthless. And clearly written by HUMANS specifically MEN. It's so obviously masculine with all it's chest puffing and rigidity. No touch of a woman at all anywhere in there. And Paul was gay let's face it. So Christianity was proliferated by a gay Jew and yet it damns gays and jews. How ironic. Morals existed before Jesus, a long time before. Watch this channel and you'll see there is No Truth in the Bible anymore than Harry Potter.

@Tina06019

2 жыл бұрын

@@mohankang8062 Mr. Kang, vaccinations give your immune system a copy of the enemy’s battle plan.

Fantastic, nuanced, thought provoking stuff. Had she been my professor I would have switched majors just to be in her classes. 😉 I think she’s made another book sale.

I can’t get enough of these conversations! I’m trapped inside of a labyrinth of which I don’t want to get out!

Derek, one of your best interviews. Robyn is a very talented scholar! Please have her back.

This is exactly the discussion I’ve been looking for for a long time. As far as I’m concerned, the author of Mark is the most important person we never talk about.

@lil-al

2 жыл бұрын

That person is the one person I would visit in my time machine. And get him to set the world straight about what he wrote.

@CheddarBayBaby

2 жыл бұрын

@@lil-al same, for all we know they didn’t even believe in it. Writers can often b miserable nasty people haha abs the author of Mark may have been the same.

@marktwain5232

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with you 110%. The only way to try to get closer to what was really going on in his thinking, is trying to get a better picture on the possible documented esoteric Egyptian and Zoroastrian World Age Passage AstroTheology "Gnostic mindsets" that can be linked to Alexandria, Egypt. That is supposedly where it was written. Why does that supposed tradition exist? I think the jarring sudden end to the "Resurrection" account pointing to the Galilee is a smoking gun hiding in plain sight of far greater significance than has been expounded upon so far. This is the approach I am taking in my own book that I am hard at work on. It is not a creative lapse or literary gaff. As Doctor Walsh points out, the Gospel writers were not craft dolts. They were at a certain form level even though Mark is written in the lowest brow Greek. It is a decent spec script by current Hollywood standards and Mark would have made WGA spec script scale and would have been able to get credible professional representation. I feel there is an ocean of clues in that jarring ending if you look on a more Gnostic level.

@truman5838

2 жыл бұрын

None of the incredible claims made about Jesus were even mentioned in Mark

@ignipotent7276

Жыл бұрын

@@truman5838 Were they supposed to be mentioned in mark,when mark is an interpreter of Peter?

Excellent conversation, one of the best in a while, and that is saying a lot. Keep up the great work.

This has become one of the best and most professional podcasts on all of KZread, independent of the theme it covers.

Fantastic, Derek. Definitely will need to add Dr. Walsh's book to the list, as well as Dr. John Cook. Apparently I need to re-read the Satyricon as well...

I wish she would have mentioned the highly skilled literary techniques the gospel writers used which is proof that these writings are works of literature and not history and is further evidence to back up her thesis about the authors as well.

@patricianoel7782

Жыл бұрын

Yep! I just bought The Septuagint and it’s so fun to read as literature. I never knew about this version of historical religion until last year. Life long learning is what it’s all about!! Enjoy 😊

Excellent presentation. When she has published her upcoming book on Paul, she needs to come back on and gives us a heads up.

2:33- her book 10:17- how conversion is made to look like in Luke & acts 15:03 - life expectancy 24 yrs. 16:01- 18:10- gospels have bits of what Paul said? 37:42- theucydites & herodutus (claiming that source was eyewitness) 39:07 47:00 cock crowing, denial , satyricon 54:08- why Paul might've been successful? 1:04:09- last supper & Paul mentioning it. 1:05:31- ecclesia/church 1:11:55- some Greek mythology allusion

@Shannon.Hazleton

Жыл бұрын

Helpful! Thank you!

@pragmaticcrystal

Жыл бұрын

Thank you 💯

Bravo! this is precisely what we need to get the study of christian "origins" on track, thank you Robyn and Derek :)

@eddybrevet6816

2 жыл бұрын

Huge egos being stripped of their facades, rather fight than switch , of course

Derek, kudos for just letting her talk. Very informative. I've always been suspicious of the "oral tradition" apologetics used by liberal Christians. No more need to listen to liberal Christian apologetics than to listen to the 'fundie" apologetics. While they seem more 'reasonable' they are still trying to hold up a belief set. Oh, and we all want to see a show with both her and Dr. Carrier. The masses have spoken. So it is written, so let it be done.

@stevewise1656

2 жыл бұрын

I would love to hear where the two intersect and possibly have nuanced differences in opinion.

@stevenv6463

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think Derek's interviewing technique has improved a lot. You can tell he works hard.

15:05 "...life expectancy is about 24 years old." This is at the low end of the estimated range and is misleading to many because it is the mean expectancy at birth: it includes a rather high rate of infant mortality. It does not mean that most adults keeled over at 24 years of age.

@crhu319

2 жыл бұрын

Yes but...anyone who knows what "life expectancy" means knows this. People 50+ are considered old.

Richard Carrier also said that Greco Roman schools have this genre of myth building as a "curriculum".

@jullietmburu9672

Жыл бұрын

😳😳😳 ... So it's a learned skill... Explains a lot..

Great guest, Derek! I disagree with her and especially Paula Fredrickson about Paul - - tending to agree far more with James Tabor's view, but Dr. Walsh is a wonderfully helpful and likeable guest. Good choice!

Paul is to Christianity as Joseph Smith is to Latter Day Saints.

It was actually quite common for the Greek to rewrite stories. Which was perfectly fine as long as the original was still recognizable and they followed the same plot. There were even yearly contests with prizes and prestige for the best poet/writer to do this. A lot of stories differed from region to region.

@williamolsen20

2 жыл бұрын

Also the Sumerians did the same thing, and it seemed to me they had some influence on Jewish people too.

@nikolajrasmussen9573

2 жыл бұрын

Also the Jews did it in the old testament, with most if not all of the well known stories. Like Noah, Adam and Eva, Samson, Daniel, Josef, Job etc.

@rfinky1

2 жыл бұрын

I think it was a lot like our own time, how many super hero's are there? How many times has the earth been destroyed? This actually makes her conclusion less believable to me. A common theme is just that a common theme, it doesn't really prove her point that the people who wrote the bible were just winging it. (I think a lot was made up but she isn't presenting a clear argument to prove her point for me. In her discussion regarding Paul's writing she doesn't mention that a lot of the letters attributed to him someone else wrote. Big miss for a historian I think.)

@2100suprafreak

2 жыл бұрын

@@nikolajrasmussen9573 the Jews didnt do it through those stories or the bible. The Jews did it through the oral traditions that came from Babylon. The new testament specifically teaches against that oral tradition, during that time period that oral tradition was getting codified into what is now the talmud. The book of Noah which is within the 1st book of Enoch (not the other books that were later added to it) was written before the current day bible, well before those jews got their hands on it. The old/new testament both reference the 1st book of enoch.

So Steve Mason establishes that Luke knew Josephus' works, now Robyn Walsh shows that the Satyricon (and possibly other classical literature) references, or was referenced by, the synoptic gospels. Questions: how many people in the 1st century CE Roman Empire 1) could both read and write in Greek and/or Latin; and 2) had access to a library of contemporary literature from which they could draw inspiration and quotations? How widely were Josephus' works circulated?

@danielmalinen6337

2 жыл бұрын

Of course, the anonymous author of the Luke-Act used Josephus as a source. The author didn't have any other source available at that time. So the writings of Josephus were the only available source from which the author obtained information and he used it even though he misunderstood many things such as the dating of Roman taxation and the order of the riot of Theudas. The author also puts in the mouth of Jesus a prophecy of the destruction of the temple, but this could not have been predicted or written until the temple was destroyed because there was no any information about the destruction of the temple before it took place.

@nonprogrediestregredi1711

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielmalinen6337 I'm not sure if you realize that the anonymous author of "Luke" had "Mark" and possibly "Matthew" as a source also. He did verbatim copying as part of his narrative.

Dr. Robyn your book is on its way to my address. Thank you Derek.👊🏿👊🏿👊🏿

I literally LOL'd at graphic Robyn used for "Paul's Death". I was like, "Is that Abbey Road???" then it hit me. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 So awesome. 👍👍

@nathanjasper512

2 жыл бұрын

Saul wasn't wearing any shoes!!!!

Beautiful and smart this lady is

@rexharley3445

2 жыл бұрын

Just the regular nonsense of an atheist witch

@jimnasium3979

2 жыл бұрын

@@rexharley3445 Is she a 'witch' because she doesn't subscribe to your idolatrous ideas?

@fatslapper49

2 жыл бұрын

@@rexharley3445 Damn Rex and you wonder why your churches are emptying out lol.

@jaclo3112

2 жыл бұрын

@@rexharley3445 so witches are a good thing? Ok.

Wow. Richard Carrier level right there. And that is high praise.

@johnobrien6415

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I was thinking that would be a great double show.

@truthbebold4009

2 жыл бұрын

Neither one of them knows much about the Bible.

@johnobrien6415

2 жыл бұрын

@@truthbebold4009 and you know more??

@truthbebold4009

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnobrien6415 They know more about mythology than I do. They bring their presuppositions to the study of the Bible. Because of that they are unaware of the supernatural origins of the Bible.

@johnobrien6415

2 жыл бұрын

@@truthbebold4009 I see. So you believe them when they say "God told me". I usually step away from such people, but you go on ahead and keep on believing.

Was immediately hooked from the beginning!! Robyn definitely communicated something new and original and in line with Dennis McDonald, as they're both looking into stuff most people don't consider or want to hear. Great and engaging discussion, thank you Derek for this!!

Why don't the gospel writers know much about Jesus so that they have to copy each other and pad out their stories with passages from the OT and possibly texts from the Greek classics. Hope this video will help with that.

I agree with so much Dr. Walsh is saying. It just makes so much sense. Theres a lot of subtle apologetics going on in nt scholarship where they won't even touch something thats right in front of their face because its sacred. Paul was the head honcho of the early church. He says he's a super apostle equal to the other apostles, he brags about calling the head of the church and vicar of christ (according to catholics) peter a hypocrite to his face, and states he was ascended into the 2nd Heaven. Its far more plausible that the gospel writers took from Paul's letters and reworked the material to fit their community's needs and so much more. People want to play down Paul's motives and I dont know why. He was an educated and well connected pharisee and co-opted a backwaters new apocalyptic religion and up until today, Christianity everybody knows is the Christianity of Paul. Why not speak as if Paul is where people are getting these traditions from. Instead, we get all of this oral tradition studies saying there MUST be an oral tradition behind it like what James Dunn and others state. I just don't buy it. Thank you Dr. Walsh, religion is man made and we should look at it through a human understanding of its development. Answers a lot more questions FYI, the christs association boom by John Kloppenborg is very good. Theres a good book about the story of Jewish law from Jesus to the mishnah by E.P. Sanders which is awesome as well called " Jewish law from jesus to mishnah"

@TorianTammas

2 жыл бұрын

Yes Indeed it id the Pauline religion about some guy he heard in his head.

@williamamartey2184

2 жыл бұрын

L0

@eduardocastaneda9476

2 жыл бұрын

Religion has always been man made. Who said otherwise?

@youngknowledgeseeker

2 жыл бұрын

Paul hijacked it for what?? What would that have gained him? Violence? Persecution? Ostracization? Death? He turns down money. He promotes anti imperial doctrine. Like what kind of conjecture are you spewing? I mean as a theory fine, go see if the evidence matches up, but good luck with that.

@omaralyafai2368

2 жыл бұрын

@@youngknowledgeseeker Paul was an educated, well trained rhetorician with ties to beaurocracy who can win the hearts and minds of those who knew less then him. Paul co-opted the movement and made the xian movement his movement. Xianity today is the xianity of Paul not the xianity of the jerusalem church. The whole " he died for what he believed for" isnt a good argument. Many people did that and were wrong and con men but fought for fame and glory. Paul took over a burgeoning jewish messianic moment and effectively made himself the most important person in the movement. It makes absolutely great sense. Just because he died for it means nothing

Great interview. A Bible scholar who's intelligent, well-spoken, beautiful, and....loves The Beatles?? It must be Christmas! (haha)

What a great episode! Robin Faith Walsh, another addition to my list of to be read. Kudos to you Derek for keeping up with her. I may go back and listen to this again at half speed. Also, she's so gorgeous, how could you concentrate on what she was saying if you were in her class?

If Jesus taught in Aramaic why are the most important Christian terms highly technical Greek philosophical terms? Paraclete / logo/ kategetes /minogeneros and etc. Are we to believe that these highly technical Greek philosophical terms were used to translate a single Aramaic word?

@danielhopkins296

2 жыл бұрын

@Bolek Kolek again, how could Jesus have taught Aramaic with all those highly technical Greek philosophical terms?

@michealfriedman7084

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing was said or written by Jesus. No one knew him from the gospels. The Gospels were anonymous. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John were added to the titles in the 2nd Century.

@jenniferphilips1916

2 жыл бұрын

and Jesus real name in Aramaic is Ishoo/ Isu and he called God Allaha and the Greek bible Codex Sinaiticus I think was constructed hundreds of years after Jesus disappeared. and in the old and new testament many people who people saw as being very close to God were described as sons of God, so when Jesus is described as Son of God, it does nt mean it in a literal sense but more of an emotional gesture.

@compositioncompilation

2 жыл бұрын

@@jenniferphilips1916 Under oppressive Rome the harsh approach together with the Gods that were grossly immoral contrasted wildly with the personal qualities Christ displayed which were filled with humility and consideration for the lowly ones made his message and teachings so appealing and outstanding. The Pharisees who were wealthy and educated.. despised the Amhaarets or lowly uneducated. Uneducated doesn't mean they couldn't read or write..but thst they hadn't undergone further education. Paul had been taught at the feet of Gamaliel. Some people of bible times delighted to tell stories ..it was a past time..much like we derive pleasure from watching a film on TV.or a series/soap. That recreational past time satiated ..escapism.. Poorer people found their pleasures some how. Christs' followers were not ones that had letters after their name..so were looked down upon by the Pharisaical elite. Fools of the world contrasts with the worldly wise. Grecian pride was the norm. I recall learning that there was no equivalent for the word humility in the Greek language . Libraries in Alexander..centres of study. Today we have Google. Daniels prophecy refers to our times when True knowledge is abundant Many People can rove in it.

@jenniferphilips1916

2 жыл бұрын

@@compositioncompilation what does this have to do with Jesus language being Aramaic and the people called god Alah? and his name is actually Ishoo/ Isu etc

So _simple_ and difficult to overlook it's brilliant. I love the fact that Doctor Walsh gave me some context to the period of German Romanticism which I am approaching at the moment in order to understand a much different topic.

@jackfrosty4674

2 жыл бұрын

The bible is made to point to mans need for God and his ways. Is hopeless without God. Mans heart is a sinful lustful one and Gods ways are only way to overcome. You need the Jesus plan to find eternal life. Jesus the son of God. Call on JESUS and ask to be saved. He is the answer the bible points to. Open the door he is knocking.

@amandasunshine2

Жыл бұрын

​@@jackfrosty4674 .. you do realize what she's saying about the origins of the bible? That it has no more authority than a cookbook, and is no less literature than the works of Shakespeare. You're basically saying "life is hopeless without Hamlet, the whole play shows us why". 🤷‍♀️

@christianpulido8360

8 ай бұрын

​@@amandasunshine2Well you do know that the bible is the most accurate book in the world right? Search.: What is the most accurate book in the world. Ok? This lady is incorrect about everything that she mentioned about the Bible. Also William Shakespeare was a 33 degree freemason. Shakespeare was a devil worshipper.

This was a really incredible episode. I sure liked her insights into the text, and I found her approaches to the Biblical Works are so new. I'm so glad that she is publishing and becoming known. But, damn, Derek, please, have Dr. Walsh back and spend her few episodes on hearing more about her views of the writings of those periods. This was one of the best episodes ever, and I've watched a number (more than the sum of all my fingers, thumbs, and toes) of episodes of this. And, she was quite the joy to watch, laugh with, and enjoy. She's got an infectious personality and childlike laughter that just makes her content and presentation so much more enjoyable.

The one thing I REALLY took from this discussion is that the mainstream academics in biblical scholarship are not open to other theories or changing their minds at all. Great chat!

@TorianTammas

2 жыл бұрын

They are to serious to accept that they spent most of their life with fanfiction.

@BurnBird1

2 жыл бұрын

Same with most historians. Must don't even entertain the existance of Atlantis, nor the fact that the Egyptians produced and used wireless electricity.

@MrHarry-ne7ol

2 жыл бұрын

@@TorianTammas That's a tough one. When you've spent 30 yrs of your life not just believing it, but also experiencing it. I'm one of those people. It's easier for those who have not much time or experience invested to suggest culpability. Believers look for reasons to believe, doubters look for reasons not to. But you know, most people who would say 'the Bible contradicts itself ' cannot in fact name or explain even one such example. Both sides are really full of their own agenda, and full of people who are not capable of knowing or articulating their accepted dogmas.

@TorianTammas

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrHarry-ne7ol So where did the parents of Yeshuah live before his birth? One story says in Nazareth and the other story says in Bethlehem. After Jesus birth where did they go? One story says Nazareth and the other story says they fled to Egypt.

@truthbebold4009

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrHarry-ne7ol I know the Bible is God's word but I'm always looking to understand why others conclude it is man-made.

Fabulous chat. Love the passion and analysis! Keep up the great work Derek!

I am a Muslim and I like Derek. Derek is far the best atheist I have seen. He does not impose himself onto people he asks the question and he listens. He does not make scholars speak what he wants to hear. He let them speak themselves out and he listens. As I said I am a Muslim. I want him to bring more Muslim scholars, and put them on the hot seat. I don't believe we have the original books of Quran left by Muhammad or the Torah or gospel. But I believe during Muhammad time there was an original Torah, gospel and Bible. What happened to this books. I don't know maybe one day we will discover them somewhere

@TrueNovice

Жыл бұрын

If he does that and it's considered to be disrespectful by someone in Islam. he'd be in danger.

As usual Derek brings on a wonderful scholar that demolishes the Christian ideas that the Gospels were some perfectly inspired historical retelling of a real life character known as Jesus of Nazareth.

The “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John” rhyme was first published as a charm or blessing in 1656, England, by Thomas John Ady in his book “Candle in the Dark: Or, A Treatise Concerning the Nature of Witches & Witchcraft” “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, The bed be blest that I lie on.” Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Bless the bed that I lie on. Four corners to my bed, Four angels round my head; One to watch and one to pray And two to bear my soul away.

I'd like to buy her book, but it's $85 and no Audible version. :(

I learned about 10 new things from this conversation. Amazing insight in this interview

Oh my god, I just got her book. This is gonna be a great interview. Thanks Derek

This was amazing! I loved it. When Paul said in his writings in the Christian bible "It is written", referring to the Jewish Bible, he would twist the quote, giving it a completely different meaning.

@sophiar6493

Жыл бұрын

Paul is the Benjamin WOLF genesis 49 27 antichrist

What a great interview. You both did an amazing job. Dr. Walsh you are now my early Christian idol. As a woman, it was extremely refreshing to watch a video with you where you are so intelligent, professional, and well spoken.

Thanks @Mythvision for this interview. I didn’t know her and i just check her book and i finally read someone talking about the potential dependence of Mark on the Satyricon. A subject put aside and ignored (voluntarily ?) by scholars.

The same general conclusion can be drawn about the old testament. A composition of established forms of expression. Broader than literary tradition. An idol is a narrative container. Animals express archetypes. The narrative reflects on, critiques, existing traditions. It uses them. Egypt is a launchpad for the narrative. It's thick with existing narrative devices. And religion is language itself. Exclusively in the biblical perspective. We see birth ritual (Moses on the Nile). The exodus is a ritual (river of land). Struggle with establishment and coming to insight is a continuous theme from east to west, often as a personal narrative but here as a group (elevation, exaltation). Existing narrative structures that dig into the zeitgeist. People think in full sentences. We need an explanation. We'll tell a story. We take what we know. I think the stories are very conceptual. They are compositions. Elitism is definitely the topic. These are informed and advanced expressions, a form of art. Perpetuated by schools, priest class. This is quite essential in the continuum of expression. We can be open to what's being expressed. But the word of God definitely likes to shop around at 5th avenue.

I was about to order this book and then I realized it costs 113$ on Amazon. Damn!

@whippet71

2 жыл бұрын

Small costs for this vast amount of reshearch.

@willydakid6596

2 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryandReviews are you angry?

@happyjourneygateway

2 жыл бұрын

It's down to 85 dollars now but damn. 85 clams is still robbery

@Saje3D

2 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryandReviews Clairvoyant, are we?

@crhu319

2 жыл бұрын

@@happyjourneygateway compare it to a lifetime of tithing...

You've had many great interviews. This was the best. Please have her on again soon!

This is probably one of the best episodes I've ever watched. I've often heard of the bible spoken of as literature but it's only listening to a discussion like this that I realize that I've never thought of it in relation to other literature. Love the classics angle. Could listen to this lady talk all day. A scholar. And someone who very much prepared for the episode. I know it was an hour an forty minutes but it still felt too short. Genuinely hope you have her back. Great talk.

Hope she does write this next book, I'm hooked!

I acquired this book a couple of months ago, but haven't started reading it yet. Shall do so as soon as possible.

Another great interview Derek. I’ll definitely have to check out Dr Walsh’s book

Epic. I am going to spread this video "far and wide!"

@krzysztofciuba271

2 жыл бұрын

hiha and she has not yet learned for example J.Wrede, Messianic Secret from AD...1901!!! Yet, she criticizes....German's scholarship

Another fantastic one! My reading list is just getting longer and longer...

Just Wow! Greta Garbo meets Maureen O'Hara as a First Rate thinker! Total one stop shopping on trying to figure out the origins in 33 A.D. of what I say was a Zoroastrian Gnostic World Age Passage Movement already under way when the "Jesus Movement" hit out of the equivalent of San Francisco 1967 in Alexandria, Egypt around 36 A.D. This is my approach in my own book fully under way. Get her on next discussing St. Paul and 2nd Temple Gnostic Cosmologies. Derek, your channel has just exploded over the last two years to become the supreme rapidly growing vortex of this entire inquiry on the global Internet. I am so proud of you! It is astonishing! I just got her book!

Too much goodness for just Patreon! "Is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket, or under a bed, and not on a stand?" Mark 4:21

@PGB55

2 жыл бұрын

Derek I second this motion

@bozo5632

2 жыл бұрын

Your prayers are answered.

@MythVisionPodcast

2 жыл бұрын

The Lambert of God has granted your wish! 😁

@onedaya_martian1238

2 жыл бұрын

@@MythVisionPodcast All praise and glory to the Lambert of God who takes away the ignorance of the world.

So these gospel writers aren't even necessarily even believers writing within or for a community of believers? They could just be literary elites who are taking an artistic interest in this emergency christian phenomena and seeing who can write the best story for the Roman Daily Magazine?. Unbelievable.

Just a thought, Alexander the Great died age 33, Jesus died age 33. The Greek god's in mountain Olympus were 12, the apostles were 12. Hector was dead for 3 day's and then his father asked for permission to pick up the body, Jesus was dead for 3 day's and Joseph asked permission to pick up his body.

Fantastic discussion! I need to check out Dr. Walsh's research!

Robyn is amazing, obviously a sharp woman. Thanks for this interview, hope to see her again.

Hey, Derek. I was curious if there is a way to contact you? I'm planning on writing a fictional book on mythology...a big part of it is religious studies, philosophy, etc. I'm not a scholar in these fields but am very passionate about mythology. I would love to get in contact with Carrier or other scholars. I have a lot of interesting/insightful questions.

@MythVisionPodcast

2 жыл бұрын

Add me on Facebook, Twitter or email me derek@mythvisionpodcast.com

@js1423

2 жыл бұрын

What kind of fictional book on mythology?

@Iamwrongbut

2 жыл бұрын

Go through Patreon.

Wow, I could listen to Robyn for ever, great show.

Absolutely wonderful presentation thank you.. I watched another talk with a room full of 'brains' listening which was informative but this was very different.. Robyn let her hair down and went fully human so to speak.. Her laughter and casual nature worked wonders in my comprehension and understanding.. Throughout I kept hearing the words in my head.. 'Gospel of Thomas'.. perhaps next time (?)

This is my favorite video so far! Dr. Walsh is an excellent communicator and makes all the connections. 👍🏻😁

Ty Robyn for your amazing lecture!!!

Wonderful interview. Thank you both.

This was brilliant. Finally a scholar who recognizes how little we actually know about Christian origins. Most of them just build on established assumptions and treat them like fact when they really aren't. I've always missed the perspective of the sciences where you test and try to disprove your hypothesis. In bib scholarship people get way too much respect for basically speculating and just adding to a house of cards of assumptions.

@vernonchitlen8958

2 жыл бұрын

Where’s the documentation, the peer reviewed publication demonstrating the process of abiogenesis, the natural origin of life? The actual process of the chemical elements assembling themselves into an organism capable of evolving? Not the ambiguous, equivocating, hey look, we induced 10 of the 20 amino acids life uses exclusively, racemic and only half chiral. Amounting to less then 2% of a gunky, tarry mass in a “trap” and fully enclosed apparatus with elements limited to what was calculated to bring the intended results. That amino acids could form in a warm little pond. The infamous miller urey experiment which wasn’t even close to causing any proteins to form. But hey, to naturalists presupposed to life being a strictly “natural” occurrence, close enough! An archive of DNA the size of a poppyseed could contain all 74 million million bytes of information stored in the library of congress-6,000 times over. A mindless, undirected, unguided process of trial and error accomplished this? Scientists examining something much more sophisticated, and advanced than the computers they are using to examine it with? youtube Dina Zielinski TEDx Psalm 139:14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made, marvelous are your works; that my soul knows very well.

@Juliet_Capulet

2 жыл бұрын

@@vernonchitlen8958 What created God?

@vernonchitlen8958

2 жыл бұрын

@@Juliet_Capulet God is eternal and transcendent. Matter and energy isn’t. If matter and energy was eternal the sun, stars would have “burned” out, long ago. Information is the product of intelligence, has no mass, non material, invisible and is acknowledged by it’s influence, effect on matter and energy. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (2) He was in the beginning with God (3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. It’s obvious “warm little ponds” cannot code. If you think they can/could, prove it.

@Juliet_Capulet

2 жыл бұрын

@@vernonchitlen8958 Prove it? Why don't you pretend be what you're saying?

@Juliet_Capulet

2 жыл бұрын

*prove, not pretend

Who says Paul even existed? Honest questions: what is the evidence outside of these letters? Which historian talked about Paul?

Excellent background material! And a great guest! Loved this one! I can see you are still trying to figure out who was Israel and who wasn’t, Derek! ;-)

Robyn is gorgeous geez 🥰🥰

One of the best interviews you've done what a great show

When she said that Peter and James get their authority from knowing the historical Jesus, where did she get that idea from?

@redsneakers10

2 жыл бұрын

Does Paul ever claim that Peter or James knew Jesus before his death? In 1 Corinthians, he says that Jesus "appeared" to Peter and James after the resurrection. When he quotes Jesus at the Last Supper, he says he "received it from the Lord," not from Peter, although he spent 15 days with Peter in Jerusalem (1 Galatians).

@unicyclist97

2 жыл бұрын

@@richmann2429 so was Paul. So what makes Peter and James different?

@compositioncompilation

2 жыл бұрын

One of the James the bible mentions was half brother of Jesus.. Some of Jesus' family were unbelievers early on. One James mentioned became one of the kesfing figures in the early Christian Church/congregation ..cant recollect if these James es..are both one and the same..🤔🙄

@unicyclist97

2 жыл бұрын

@@compositioncompilation I think she's mixing the gospels with Paul, which is a mistake because the gospels are unreliable.

@compositioncompilation

2 жыл бұрын

@@unicyclist97 what is it that brings you to that conclusion ?

Thank you Robyn and Derek. I think the insight that the gospel writers wrote for their own purpose and not merely collected the thoughts and stories of their community is very powerful. The authors are defending a viewpoint against perceived opponents. I think ‘Mark’ is defending some the Gentile Mission methods and message of Paul, not that he searched around and found Paul materials as if there was little else. On the subject of the tomb in Jerusalem ( the first tomb as per Dr Tabor) the fact that around 320 CE the local Christian community could remember that there was a set of tombs buried beneath the Temple of Aphrodite built by the Emperor Hadrian 200 years before, suggests a community memory that was important to them.

Moron high School dropout but I've never believed in God since I was 7 and this woman proves why I don't I understand every word she's saying perfectly this was an excellent show thank you

I saw another talk by this professor where she spoke about authors' intentions instead of communities producing these texts. I think that is a really interesting and new insight so I'm glad to see more details on this idea.

Excellent. Looking forward to reading Dr Walsh's book. Also intrigued by the idea of the stoic angle on anger. Thanks.

BTW Fredrickson has made some very direct statements in some conference presentations that "we must move beyond" or "get past" Baur, because she views Baur/Tubingen school as divisive and overly anti-Pauline. figure. However, as long as their are eminent scholars like Tabor taking the opposite view, there will be ongoing inquiry and discussion.

Here's the dream panel: Elaine Pagels Tovia Singer Richard Carrier Robyn Walsh What three of four agree on, I'm going to believe without damn good reason not to.

Great video! "The truth is not for all men but only for those who seek it."

Excellent interview thankyou Robyn and Dereck. My summary comment = "SHADES of Bruno Bauer who thought that Christianity was "Stoicism triumphant in Jewish garb". Here are my notes. Sorry about the typos. Origins of Early Christianity Robyn Faith Walsh Q and the "Big Bang" Theory of Christian Origins Paul: spirit pneuma - Stoicism 14:00 Gospels after temple down 70 CE How to get from 30CE to 70CE = Oral tradition 15:40 Literate pokesperson writes it down Game of telephones = multiple generations tll story accrately Spoken in Aramaic but written in Greek 17:50 Oral tradition doesn't work. Are there another written sources (formative) 30 (JC Dies) - 70 (Mark WRITES) Gospels are not in verse. Written in narrative form Why obsession with oral tradition and "Origin"?? 22:00 Went back to 18th/19th century academics = "Romanticism" "Romanticism" = Origins, "Volk" (Stories of the people), Community and the Poet Motivated by political or national issues Flow over into study of classical and biblical texts EG: Shakespeare. Capturing common stories "national spirit" Emergence of "Religious Studies" Emergence of "Brothers Grimm" & Kuhn PROBLEMATIC: "Romanticism" = Origins, "Volk" (Stories of the people), Community and the Poet Romantic period: Most Germany protestant and anti-Papal 31:20 Roman pagan viewed as heather and heretic Paul knows philosophy and has upper class education Framework of "Romanticism" is not sufficient "We dont know aot about the Christian movement" Paul tick. Others we dont know. Paul seems outsider 34:30 Roman Education in Imperial Period P.52 Gospel John fragment Shows material produced by cultural elite Shows educations, editing, copying Cutural Networks * Cultural Elites * Highly edicated * Literary netorks EG: Synoptic Gospels LUKE 1:1-4 = Shows cultural network EYEWITNESSES Classical Historians vs Biblical Sources Herotidus quotes UBLIEVABLE "eyewiteness accounts" 41:00 Another Book = 41:00 ? "Love the [Roman] empire or hate it Jesus is a perfect subject" Curiousity of "ancient LXX" ? Jesus narrative is about the empire Rhetoric = political narrative Synoptics (3) = "Big Bang" to 3 communities NO We have Three elite people writing > ===> Rhetoric 43:00 Are Synoptic writers normal writers of cultural elite in 1st century (un-isolated? Other authors? "The Satyricon" - Petronius similar stories to gospels? but text is from 2nd century Writing in Pliny's circle??? Annoints and then Divides body (Sat 141) Sound NT like Cock Crowing (Sat 74) Chariton, Chaereas = "Empty Tomb" Common ancient literature MARK borrows Gospels and Bio? 50:00 Paul - "Deep love for subject" Ancient Jewish scripture (Philo) mixing Plato and Moses Gentile curiousity Paul reads Greek LXX Paul well educated and communicates philosophy such as Stoicism. Paul combines this in his discourse letters: PAUL = comprehensive program taps into political element. Conform to Stoicism and Middle Platonism PAUL must compete with other communities or writers 54: 30 * LIBRARY Emily Lind--- Oxy Library of three pages of Romans PAUL talks to risen Christ and writes it down 57:20 Acts 17 Zeus Cave of Zeus Tomb unknown. Taxonomy of different "flesh' Paul often quotes LXX Ancient writers make allusions = Second Sophistic Paul often trys to prove something - tries to convince readers 1:02:00 Last Supper? HJ in gospels? ALT THEORY = last supper accounts in gospels Falsely implies "Oral tradition" Paul = zombie Jesus appeared to me Here's how I know. Simple explantion read letters of Paul One option other than standard Literary explanation !! Ecclesia = association have meals together all the time Meal / Collection $$$ / hierarchy Satiricom "Widow of Aphesus" Roman soldier guarding tomb. Comforts woman mourner 3 days 3 nights During which someone steals body on cross Widow takes husband body on cross to protect save Roman soldier Are gospels reading this or vice verse? ??????????????????? Satire? Mixing literary motifs NOT oral traditions 1:10:20 Dennis McDonald Robyn Walsh uses Dennis (COOL !!) Mimesis HOMER Eucation =Homer Literary memes in the air 1:13:20 Robyn With Dennis * Context of ancient world = literature * NOT oral tradition with HJ BB * Education system = character studies * Fill in blank from Hector * Genre form precludes poetry * Writers have habits * NT people obsess over "Teaching of HJ" * old methodology in past centuries * Homer challenges this * Freud "ego" terms used today * Intelectual waters are often muddied * Not trying to prove mimesis * Motifs are there - in plays !! * Attedance at theatres 1:19:00 Josephus three crucified * Makes Flavians look good n some places * Josephus was a prisoner of war 1:21:20 Authors = Roman Stories are re-written without attribution RW: Authors reference litrature. Pre-existence in Homer like literature already had authority PREMISE = Jesus is jewish, Paul Jewish The true god is Jewish NATION = Christian / Jewish 1:24:00 Why are gentiles being converted Jewish / Roman / Christians God-fearers ?? Paul experienced the risen Christ !!! His descriptions of this appeal to Jesus Overcomes death. Paul never uses word "Christian" Covenant for gentiles = baptism etc The resurrection is the first domino to fall. Paul ushers in new age Alot of stuff comes from Paul 1:28:30 Resurrection Community tacked on the end of Mark Ghost / spirit What makes the HJ physical resurrection 1) extra special dudes get the full resurrection 2) Paul is being stoic.plato "flesh" and spirit body is "pneumatic" Plutarch = 1) body to earth 2) soul goes to space 3) spirit to sun or elysium 4) those attached to body - no heaven 5) Paul = philosopher + human 6) Other writers 7) spiritual body - physical body 8) docetism 9) philosophical literature of epoch 10) no fixed way that people think 11) Paul maybe says one thing but other stuff 1:36:00 MATTHEW??? Centurion has great faith? * MATT ha read Mark * Creeped out by pneuma / spirit * competition between authors * Jesus in Matthre is Stoic (Erin Roberts) * Talks about ANGER like the Stoics * Well versed in philosophy of day * Community background approach no go. * Jewish / Stoic approach. Robyn = "OPEN UP CONVERSATIONS" Great work !!!

@HidingFromFate

2 жыл бұрын

OMG, your notes are almost as long as the interview! Herculean effort though, thanks 👍, I'll skim through them later.

@johnmichaelson9173

2 жыл бұрын

For some reason Jesus just blew up the perfect storm happened & here we are.

Amazing interview!

The fact modern day humans believe in any religion in 2021 boggles the mind. However, it's a timeless business model.

@chuckleezodiac24

Жыл бұрын

Especially Bronze Age Mythology or Cults of Antiquity. may i interest you in the Quantum Spirituality of BioUnitology?

The Satyricon is widely accepted as being written as literal Satire of the Christian story. It was written during the time of Nero who coincidentally was the self avowed destroyer of Christianity. Obviously he would want to mock it.

A very interesting interview, might have to hold off buying her book tho'!

...also, this is fascinating. Definitely going to be saving the pennies for this book! 👍

Why are their names in English like Jesus,Mark,Luke,John,Matthew,Mary,Joseph,etc,etc and not Yiddish,Hebrew,Jewish or Israelite names???

@danielhopkins296

2 жыл бұрын

The Greek IOUSUS is said to be Greek rendering of JOSHUA . IOUSUS was voiced close to how we sound " Jesus"

@michealfriedman7084

2 жыл бұрын

Those names were added in the 2nd Century.

@compositioncompilation

2 жыл бұрын

We are content to accept Haysoos..in Mexican to Jesus in English ..Daoud..to David ..in English..but rebel at Yahweh to Jehovah which became most commonly accepted as the translation in English of the Divine name. Controversial in its origin.. Controversy raises publicity

Very interesting subject! Enjoyed it very much. Thank you.

Yes, yes, yes. Another fantastic interview.

The Roman education system was based on the Greek system - and many of the private tutors in the Roman system were Greek slaves or freedmen. Education was very important to the Ancient Romans. The rich people in Ancient Rome put a great deal of faith in education. While the poor in Ancient Rome did not receive a formal education, many still learned to read and write. They were all educated It was typical for Roman children of wealthy families to receive their early education from private tutors. However, it was common for children of more humble means to be instructed in a primary school, traditionally known as a Ludus litterarius. Morgan, Teresa (1 March 2001). "Assessment in Roman Education". Assessment in Education: Principles, Policy & Practice. 8 (1): 11-24.

i think to myself what a joy it would be to hang out with a girl this smart back when i was young and it might matter! i know this doesn't relate in any way with your work here but it's such an overwhelmingly powerful thought for me here that i figured i'd share it

So, was the perception of judaism analogous to the white guy buddhist thing? i.e. Was there a bit of exoticizing/orientalism going on? That's the impression I'm getting here. The past may be a foreign country but human motivation stays pretty consistent so long as you understand the context. The idea of a relatively wealthy, erudite society taking a facile interest in the novelty of other cultures seems so plausible to me that I'm worried I'm just confirming my own biases. I always wondered about why people were adopting christianity outside of the levant. The draw of "old + exotic" is entirely understandable now that I've seen it summarized like that.

@redsneakers10

2 жыл бұрын

Romans took possession of Judea around 6 CE, and the Septuagint was available in Rome, at the very latest, by the end of the first revolt in 73 CE. The gospels, then, as Greco-Roman fan fiction based upon a dissemination of the Jewish scriptures among the educated class of the empire.

I'm always amazed at how much better people like Dr. Walsh know the Gospels compared to your average apologist or preacher.

This channel is a gem 💎 Thank you ❤

55:37 Paul doesn't say that Peter knew Jesus. To the contrary, he says that everything is "according to scripture" even after he "met Peter". Frankly, I think Paul made this all up - including Peter. He just needs some excuses for pocketing everyones money and thus makes up the apostles who (he claims) get most of that money.

How about συναγωγη (synagogue)? This word looks Greek to me. It is frequent in the Gospels, but absent in "Paul" 's Letters. I hope MythVision can tell us why.

Could anyone fill in why we think the first gospel is written in 70 C.E? Been looking for long but cant find info on this.

@michealfriedman7084

2 жыл бұрын

Historians know that. Try Dr. Bart Ehrman on KZread.

@jimmyandersson9938

2 жыл бұрын

@@khsuki1 That makes sense, thanks!

@LordJagd

2 жыл бұрын

That’s the earliest possible date, but a lot of scholars are now postdating the gospels later in the century. There doesn’t need to be a convenient ten year gap between each gospel.

Everything I thought I knew about your channel only having ugly men guests was wrong! On a serious note, one of the best conversations about early Christianity on this channel. And the Paul's death pic and Lost in Translation Bill Murray pic are priceless.

I've always felt that the part when Simon Peter slices off the slaves ear to be not very realistic like that part was literature for an audience.

This podcast get pulled from Spotify?