I dont generally long for any fantasy to be true, but the idea of meeting the last remnants of Tolkien's elves in some peaceful forest pulls strongly at my heartstrings.

Vision of last Elves leaving Middle-Earth is both very romantic and tragically sad at the same time; it's truly an end of an era!

@ivanmatusic5540

6 күн бұрын

Wouldn't felt it if haven't seen scene from movies. In that case maybe if I would've read all cannon before LotR.

Tolkien's writing in 'Nature of Middle Earth' tell us that Elves bodies would eventually cease to exist and they would just remain as spirits in the World. Thanks for the great video!

You forgot about Elladan and Elrohir. It is stated that they stayed in Middle-Earth even after Elrond departed for Valinor, and that Celeborn came to stay with them before he too departed for the Grey Heavens. The brothers' final destiny is afaik unknown

@thomasalvarez6456

4 ай бұрын

I assume they left, they had been a part of the Grey company. They had done all they could. They left their mortal sister and left with their father to see their mother and kin.

@shauntempley9757

4 ай бұрын

No. They did not depart with Elrond. Frodo and Bilbo went on that ship. Elladan and Elrohir could have remained until Arwen died, then departed on their way on another earlier ship. This video also forgets that The Last Ship also had another passenger. Samwise Gamgee. He was also on the ship, because he was a Ring Bearer.@@thomasalvarez6456

@minnumseerrund

4 ай бұрын

@@thomasalvarez6456 nopes, it is explicitly stated that they remained in Middle-Earth when Elrond left

@michaelreifenstein2114

4 ай бұрын

when elrond left his kids had to make the same choice. they all chose their Mannish side.

@minnumseerrund

4 ай бұрын

@@michaelreifenstein2114 I dont think that's necessarily the case either. The video even mentions that Aragon, on his deathbed, says to Arwen that she can still chose to go across the sea. Besides, the 'choice' doesnt seem to be time-limited. Elros and Elrond made their choice millenia before the timeline of LotR and Arwen is already well-beyond the lifespan of mortals when she makes her choice. Her brothers could have made either choice, but the fact is that we dont know wether they stayed in Middle-Earth or not

Re the Tragedy of Arwen... She receives the Doom of Men - which is also the Gift of Men - so I would say her passing is no tragedy, though getting there may be a bitter journey given her grief. Her spirit will pass in the same way as all men - beyond the world to an unknown fate. If we think of this as Heaven - then she would perhaps be reunited with Aragorn.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

They go to the halls of Mandos. All had a piece of the flame imperishable within them. Also: doom in this era didn’t always mean something bad. Just full of destiny and fate, ominous etc. and then after DagorDagorath the world is remade with the second song of the Ainur together with Men and Elves and Dwarves. They help Aulë reshape the world etc. this in full detail of the three Ardas is in GirlNextGondor’s most recent giant Nienna video

@55tranquility

2 ай бұрын

yes, she went onto wherever men go and met up with Aragorn again. Which to be honest is better than hanging out in the halls of Mandos for however long and then ending up right back in Valinor to live for like, forever.

I always pictured some elf going to the Shire to help with the Red Book, adding tales that Bilbo or Frodo may not have known about, before fading away . . .

@thomasalvarez6456

4 ай бұрын

Bilbo probably did speak to Elves in Rivendell and Frodo was an elf friend too. So they did at some point.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

@@thomasalvarez6456many lived in the Old Forest too. Also the shire is right next to Arnor which is interesting as all heck!

@thomasalvarez6456

3 ай бұрын

@@Makkaru112 Yeah when Frodo met the elves in the old forest he was already called an elf friend from that point on.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

That’s all in your imagination buddy. Bless, are you a child?

@DoomMomDot

3 ай бұрын

@@user-nz6dx2fj6h in my head? sometimes . . .

I love Bilbo's poem of farewell. And I also love the final travel between the best of fellows, Legolas and Gimli.

Since this was Tolkien's original intent to write a legendarium about the Folklore of the Fae for the British Isles, and how they diminished over time, I suppose we can assume that elves stayed along with other elementals.

@LordEriolTolkien

3 ай бұрын

It is my reading of the lore that there will be members of the fair folk hidden amongst the world till the end of all things...

@user-ib2wl4jv8g

3 ай бұрын

I believe Tolkien mentioned in The Hobbit that both "rustic Wood Elves" and Hobbits still were present in the current age but that they took pains not to be seen. @@LordEriolTolkien

@foxykc

3 ай бұрын

The interesting thing is that talking did not invent this thought. The notion in Ireland has existed God knows how long 42 warring factions agreed to split reality, the one taking the upper Earth the one descending into the earth. And it is there that they can exist in teeny tiny forms or big forms. Also he was drawing on Greek myth where Immortal or a god diminishes to the point where they just become a whisper on the Wind. He has synthesized a huge amount of Mythology

iirc there was a passage in the Silmarillion that said not all the elves left Middle Earth, but the ones who chose to remain were destined to lose their grace and become "a rustic folk of dell and cave..." I always found that poetic and sad.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

It has a lot more meaning to this. Tolkien stated in detail why they were meant to remain in middle earth. All of them. They were only brought to Valinor because of Morgoth threatening these new children of Eru Îlluvatar long before Oromë even found them to begin with which is why for a short time they thought he was Morgoth but quickly found that Oromë was. Wholesome pure being ❤

@entwistlefromthewho

3 ай бұрын

The fading of the Elves was Tolkien's entire reason for writing about them. If they all left for Valinor, his tales would not result in the modern day remnants of faerie, fairy stories, and fairy folklore.

@user-td9hp6li5h

3 ай бұрын

And this would tie in to the legends of the Real World, things like the Huldufólk (the Hidden People) or elves of Icelandic lore, pixies, faeries and so on who are no longer the mightly Noldor, Sindarin or even Avari. Tolkien intended for his legendarium to be about an alternative history of our own world, hence magic had to fade away before our times.

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@entwistlefromthewho fading can mean different things. Necromancy by GirlNextGondor is great at explaining this.

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@entwistlefromthewho not all elves know if Valinor is real not where to find it. It’s deep stuff.

Daeron and Maglor certainly stayed an dissolved, one turned into the whispers in the waters, the other the whispers in the woods.

@donpula6349

3 ай бұрын

Yep, we'll never know what their fate be. It remained unknown.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

I’ve never read that in any of Tolkiens books.

@sharijackson3985

3 ай бұрын

Yes perhaps they stayed. But dissolved is not quite the right word. Over time their spirits consume their physical bodies and they become invisible to the eyes of men. That will be the fate of the elves that remain in middle earth.

@SuziQ499

Ай бұрын

@@user-nz6dx2fj6h Silmarillion states both wandered the world in a sort of madness.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

Ай бұрын

@@SuziQ499 Which in anyone’s book doesn’t mean they ‘Dissolved’.

From what I got from Tolkiens text was the following: Most of the Calaquendi left middle earth, which would include Celeborn, Elladan, Elrohir and Cirdan. Thranduil is another matter, as he was a Sinda, but not from a line of Olwe, Elwe or Elmo. He may have left, but I think he stayed with his people in Mirkwood. The Noldor and Sindar leave and the last ship was Cirdans, who took with him the other two with "crowns." This could be Celeborn and Thranduil or someone else entirely. There is reason to believe that Celeborn left before Cirdan, because he left his new realm of East Lorien after a few years, stayed with Elladan and Elrohir and then departed to be with Galadriel. I guess that the other two rulers where Elladan and Elrohir, because they seemed to have inherited the rule over Imladris from Elrond and Celeborn went there to stay with them. Now to the other elves: We know that Lothlorien was deserted when Arwen went there after Aragorns death and most of its inhabitants went to East Lorien and lived there. Lindon was also inhabited by elves, as was Mirkwood and Ithilien. Most - if not all - of those elves where Moriquendi, so Nandor and their descendants, the Tawarwaith. They where described by Tolkien as being less wise, but more dangerous than the Noldor or Sindar and much more in tune with nature. We can assume that their fate was what Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion - that they would fade and become spirits of nature and the woods, without form and body, but still there. The Nandor loved their woods more than anything and they never gave a toss about the sea. So they will of course stay and inevitably fade. At the end of the 3rd Age most elves already are on the move to leave, like Gildor and his company indicate. They keep the havens open for all who wish to leave. So this also means that some dont wish to leave as well. Galadriel decided to leave because she understood that Nenya would fade and she would not be able to keep time and her longing at bay anymore. Also she conquered her worst attribute - her pride - and was then accepted back into Valinor by the Valar. Arwen chose a human fate and death, so she is out of the picture. Elladan and Elrohir succeed Elrond in Imladris, Celeborn founds a new realm, Thranduil stays and rules his kingdom and Legolas even founds his own princedom as well. What happened to Maeglor, Daeron, Elured and Elurin is not secure so they are out of the picture for now. So we still see development from the elves, just not from the Calaquendi but from those who always stayed in middle earth. The Reunited kingdom of course would have a good relationship with them, as would Dale and Rohan or Erebor and the Iron Hills. I think elves where still a sight in the early fourth age, rare but still around but they would have kept to themselves and stayed inside their forests. Maybe their immortality also faded and when they "died" they became spirits of nature. With the rise of men also came the coming of industrialization. This of course would clash with the wood loving Nandor / Tawarwaith who still remained. I remember that Tolkien wrote in one of his letters to his wife that some of the creatures in his story are metaphors for the world - Tom Bombadil is the embodiment of the spirit of the countryside close to his house; unchanging and powerful. The elves are creatures out of the new world that comes after them and they will fade into that as something new - spirits and echos.

@cgg7

2 ай бұрын

Celeborn, Elladan, Elrohir and Cirdan aren't included in Calaquendi. They never saw the light of the Two Trees.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

2 ай бұрын

Or you could have just said 'read the books'!

@jeremygreenwood1021

2 ай бұрын

I don't think elves would just die. If they did they would go to the halls of Mandos.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

@jeremygreenwood1021 And if they aren't Feanor, they get a new body and get to enjoy the society of Aman. I never did understand why or how long the Faer was held or for what reason. To teach them not to die? I like to see it as a quiet time for the healing of trauma.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

@@user-nz6dx2fj6h Trust me, I have. Almost all of them in my library except The Letters. Honorable people can differ on which of the history is correct and what can be inferred from it. One is like a historian trying to reconcile different contemporary accounts, depending on point of view.

I am sure some stayed. Tolkien told us --- in typically uncertain terms --- that there could have been a small settlement on the south side of the White Mountains, and there were some stragglers who wandered through the Shire, as Frodo and company met. We really don't know how long they remained, though they apparently intended to leave eventually. And I believe the reason why Legolas built a ship in Ithilien was because that was considerably less trouble than undertaking a long journey from there to the Grey Havens.

@DanBeech-ht7sw

4 ай бұрын

He'd have had to have travelled through the shire and frankly, hobbits piss him right off

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

Many elves didn't even know if valinor was real, it's very mythical even to them. And for other clans it's distant and to some it's a little taboo for lack of better term. Some don't even know where to find it. Watch GirlNextGondor chat with CluelessFangirl and check all there videos as well as The Red Book and Tolkien Untangled.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

​@@DanBeech-ht7swhobbits piss who off?

@DanBeech-ht7sw

3 ай бұрын

@@Makkaru112 Legolas. He'd rather build s ship himself from scratch that walk through the Shire. Can't blame him. "Oo yes Mister Frodo, no Mister Frodo, can I lick your boots Mister Frodo.". Seriously, haven't you ever wanted to punch Samwise the Groveller?

@DannyJane.

3 ай бұрын

@@Makkaru112 Everybody. Including each other! 😆

There were likely thousands of elves still in Middle Earth for much or most of the 4th age. But they would always have the power and choice to just build a ship and sail West. They don't have to have Cirdan. just to build a ship.

@donpula6349

3 ай бұрын

They have the knowledge of how to build them and also they feel and know where to find the straight road - where they can be able to get to Valinor. The straight road is hidden and only opens to Elves, immortal beings, and ring bearers, too.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

There is an awesome video called “the 7 ages of middle earth”

@Procopius464

3 ай бұрын

No they don't. Tolkien said that the Avari cannot leave. When they rejected the original invitation the choice was irrevocable. Only the Eldar can leave.

@Procopius464

3 ай бұрын

@@Makkaru112 Where is that video, and who is the user that posted it? I'm not able to find that, but I did find something called "the 7th age of Middle-Earth"

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

@@donpula6349How do the have the knowledge? Forest eleven are only used to building small rowing vessels. It’s not an inherited knowledge.

I’ve always imagined that Arwen at LEAST stuck around until her children passed away and become a super beloved queen of the restored kingdoms of Arnor//Gondor and the free peoples as she has the great ancestors of both Elves & Men alike, The Houses Of The Edain, The Sindar elves, Ñoldor Elves, Vanyar Elves & so on! This is also why I feel we’ve grown over the years to have many different hair colours like them. Gold Vanyar, White Sindar, Brown/Black hair for Ñoldor, and whichever clan had red hair too etc.

@donpula6349

3 ай бұрын

Yes, Sindar - Meaning Grey Elves. They were 2nd major subgroup of the 3rd clan - The Teleri - The largest and last Elven Clan after the Vanyar and Ñoldor. Now, the Sindar, Nandor, and some Avari will now be able to reunite their kin - the Falmari (Sea Elves) at Aman. All the Teleri subgroups were almost reunited as Teleri. Most of the Teleri were living on both the island of Tol Eressea and the coast of Eldamar. From the 2nd age, 4th age, and beyond.

@TRivan-kx2bi

3 ай бұрын

Arwen died one year after Aragorn. Her children were still alive at the time.

@cha5

3 ай бұрын

@@TRivan-kx2biI haven’t read Tolkien in forever, but is there any mention of Arwen and Aragorn’s son in the Tolkien Appendices that we get a glimpse of in the ROTK film and what happened between her and her son after Aragorn passed on?

@TRivan-kx2bi

3 ай бұрын

@@cha5 Eldarion, son of Aragorn, is mentioned in the appendices. As for what happened between him and Arwen, all it says is that she said good bye to him and his sisters after Aragon's death. Arwen then went to Lorien and died there.

@cha5

3 ай бұрын

@@TRivan-kx2bi I see, Thank you very much for that information.

I’m sure Cirdan(Nelwë/Nowë) was one of the elves that succeeded in the original design of the elves. To remain and guide & teach/mentor mankind until they shift further into the “unseen realm”, and he may yet still have physical form to this day. And as it’s stated in the books: for those who are willing to seek them out and have the hearts and sensibilities to hear AND listen to them that man will have gained something oh so priceless.

@persebra

3 ай бұрын

i dont see any evidence that he hung out with men, he knew Aragon and his folk, but he did he thing building ships, and left when the business died.

@nerdytom6881

3 ай бұрын

Cirdan departed on the Ringbearer's ship.

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@nerdytom6881 his foresight was as great as his understanding of various things within Arda which not all knew half as much as he did to the degree that he did. But yeah then the rest who DONT go to Valinor will follow suit as designed from Tolkiens own words. They were meant to stay in their ancestral homelands within Middle Earth. ❤️

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@persebra the business ? He wasn’t running a taxi service or whatever. He left because “the dominion of men is now in full swing”

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@persebra Legolas crafted a ship with Gimli from an ancient ent of white bark who essentially was at the end of his own life in a sense and happily allowed them to use his body to make a ship where they went to Tol Eressea and Valinor together.

What I'd like to know is what happened to all the spirits trapped in the Dead Marshes? Were they eventually freed like the spirits of the dead under the mountain, or were they sufferred to exist as ghosts lighting little candles until the breaking of the world?

@RealmsUnravelled

4 ай бұрын

This is a fantastic suggestion for a video! I actually have a very strong opinion on this that I can back up with textual evidence, so I'm going to make this video next. Thanks for the contribution!

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

The part about the dead marshes includes Legolas’s Father; Thranduil, & Thranduil’s father Oropher, were to join the Last Alliance in from a different angle to achieve a certain war tactic but Oropher and others got waylayed by orcs & many corrupted men which lead to eventually Oropher dying there, this loss effected Legolas’s father so very deeply forevermore. The bond between he and his son is the same bond Thranduil has with Legolas. And the braid he wears is to honour his grandfather. I believe after his death braids became less common. A sort of respect thing I believe. Both his father and Grandfather lived in Doriath(Elu Thingol’s domain[Elwë], which was heartbea of middle earth; Aside from Gondolin which held this mantle until it’s secret location was given up by a tortured elf who was the son of a very important mother who was the sister of the high king Turgon). All on a landmass called Beleriand that sunk under the sea after a set of disastrous events that lead to many greater outcomes much later on in the legendarium. This here is a whole set of stories of which also includes a quite a bit of Galadriel too but moreso other characters during this era. Of Beren And Lùthien comes to mind and Children Of Hurin!! You’ll fall in love even more after the third movie. Then you can enter into the lore videos like Moviejoob and OmarioRPG have done reaction videos too. Amazing stuff. One thing to add though is this scene resembles a lot from the other battle Tolkien was involved in called The Battle Of Somme. Look into it and tell me your thoughts. I’ll add something here though: that clan of elves really didn’t like being under the command of anyone else so they went ahead without the order and let’s just say it didn’t end well. That and they weren’t fond of the Ñoldor… huge history there as to why that is. That and the Sindar subgroup of these clans were a tiny bit more isolationist. But there are many amazing Sindar in the legendarium too Elrond and his two sons and daughter are connected to all of the main clans of men and elves through the union of his half elf father and full elf(quarter goddess) mother. Who essentially played a huge role in saving the world from the original dark lord Morgoth. Gained the Favour Of Valinor. Which subsequently lead to Numenor being a gift from the sea to the men who helped. Becoming blessed. Their land existing within the light of Valinor as it was situated closely to The Undying Lands. (The same ancestry Aragorn has that Èowyn spoke of while they were travelling to Helm’s Deep! (Elrond’s Twin Brother became the first king of Númenor. His name becoming Tar-Minyatur, and those faithful to Eru, the elves and the natural world all of this line carried Tar before their name! Ar for Aragorn is the word meaning Noble in his tongue called Adúnaic. That too is a fleshed out language Tolkien created too. Elvish languages also were placed into the official list of world languages too!

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

@@RealmsUnravelledcheck out my comments my good sir

@Uncle_Fred

3 ай бұрын

My understanding is that these apparitions were phantom illusions placed there by Sauron in an effort to force all who approach Mordor from the north or West down the three main roads.

@valkrist2889

3 ай бұрын

(Just a theory) I don't think that the spirits that inhabited the drowned bodies of the Elven soldiers belonged to them. These were likely malevolent entities drawn there by Sauron's taint and influence to provide yet another layer of defense to the entrance to Mordor. Recall that when the Hobbits become trapped in the Barrow-downs, it is explained that the Wights are evil spirits of the men of Angmar, sent there by the Witch-king in times past to haunt the Barrows and animate the bones of the old kings of Cardolan. So, it was not the spirits of the Dunedain that were there. Similarly, when the Last Alliance Elves perished on the plain of Dagorlad, their immortal essence passed to the Halls of Mandos, but evil spirits took over their decomposing remains afterwards.

I sometimes tell my children stories of Arda, as if they were indeed ages long lost to time. So it is that I also tell them that elves do exist, though just not visible to us anymore. My daughter especially loves that :)

@RoyCyberPunk

3 ай бұрын

Well Tolkien was both a historian and a linguist which is why his mythology is so well constructed it easily reflects ancient pre deluge history and civilization or the time before time as some call it. It's only now that we are finding remnants of that mysterious time period like Göbekli Tepe or the fact that we shared this planet with other hominids including Homo Floreciensis or nicknamed Hobbits because their appearance is identical downright to the larger than usual feet. In short the insight Tolkien had is nothing short of amazing. So much so I believe that Matusalen and Noah might as well had been the last Numeroan descendants of Adam and Eve.

@esjope

3 ай бұрын

Yes, some of us are still here.

@RoyCyberPunk

3 ай бұрын

@@esjope I saw what you did! 😂

@Cat_Woods

3 ай бұрын

I think that was how Tolkien thought of it -- that the faded elves were the ones that people sometimes got glimpses of out of the corner of their eye while walking in the woods.

Perhaps Legolas built his own ship knowing that Gimli was to accompany him on the journey. Maybe the other elves wouldn’t have wanted a dwarf, even an elf-friend of Gimli’s renown, traveling to Elvenhome. So rather than talking about it with others, he took the decision onto himself.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

It was in the books that an ollllld white wood ent relinquished his Fëa spirit and let his wolf he used as a gesture to make a ship where Gimli joined in drafting it and went to Tol Eresea with with Legolas(Laiqolassë)

@gerdforster883

3 ай бұрын

Or he might not have dared to subject his friend to the long and still rather arduous journey over land to Lindon. Gimli was quite old even by dwarf-standards by that time, and just sailing down Anduin was the easier way.

@littlewillie65

3 ай бұрын

My thoughts as well...

Celeborn left lothlorien long before Arwen arrived. He went to Imladris to live with Elladan and Elrohir. Yet also in either the story of arwen and aragorn or some other place its said "none now walk in the gardens of Elrond" so they would have left Imladris at that time.

The Avari in great number with the Sindar still remain as they were always meant to. To guide and mentor humanity so they could better handle their two pronged gift of Man. dominion over the physical realm while the elves shift deeper into the unseen realm.

@persebra

3 ай бұрын

i thought a lot of them were turned into orcs. can see there being a great number remaining.

@Alexs.2599

3 ай бұрын

​@@persebraNo some Elves when they were discovered by Melkor in the Valian years were taken and twisted into Orcs. That was not the fate of the vast majority of Elves, including the Avari.

Great video! I always felt that a few of the Elves remained. Reading the appendices many times over it always seemed that Tolkien meant to convey that some stayed in Middle Earth feeling, as you state, the need to heal what they could of the lands after millennia of destruction.

@johnpotts8308

4 ай бұрын

Considering LotR is supposedly the pre-history of our Earth, it would fit with there still being a few elves left, who give rise to our fairy tales (along with Tom Bombadil).

@gene108

3 ай бұрын

I agree. I think some stayed and became the rustic folk of woods and dales in future ages.

There is an interesting line about Arwen's "green grave" so you wonder who buried her. My thought is that she went back to Lothlorien though it was abandoned because it was there that she met Aragorn and they "plighted their troth" Cirdan, by the way, was waiting to take the last of those who would go.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

No doubt Elves who didn’t want to leave Middle Earth.

@armygrunt13

3 ай бұрын

Perhaps her son, Eldarion, buried her. Or maybe the green grass and trees grew up around her body, with the earth "burying" her.

@bdleo300

3 ай бұрын

still don't understand why she can't just leave (after Aragorn's death), she could go with Legolas.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

@@bdleo300 if you don’t know then you didn’t read the books.

@foxykc

3 ай бұрын

@@bdleo300 She gave that up. It was a trade off between leaving or having Aragorn. She coudln't have it both ways. Another reason is that elves aren't really sure what happens to mortal souls after they die but they are jealous of the process. That's why they called it the "gift of men". I think they suspected they "went to a better place."

I imagine most of the HIgh and Grey Elves left, but surely a contingent of Silvan Elves who never made it past the Misty Mountains and settled all along the Anduin stayed. Plus Avari who never even made it to the MM and stayed in the East, if there were any left, and were probably already well into their ultimate fate.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

The Avari in great number with the Sindar still remain as they were always meant to. To guide and mentor humanity so they could better handle their two pronged gift of Man. dominion over the physical realm while the elves shift deeper into the unseen realm.

As far as I have been able to tell, Arwen chose to be human - admittedly, High Man, similar to a Numenorean - when she married Aragorn. Her living another 120 years is due to the long life of High Men (from the grace of the Valar), and her dying 'of grief' is also in line with how Numenoreans aged and died - not really from old age, but because they were tired of living. Arwen had no reason to live longer at that point; her love was dead, her son grown and busy ruling Gondor, and none of her kin left in Middle-Earth to talk to... so she laid herself down and surrendered her life after wandering through lands of happy memory for a year. Thus she passed beyond the realm of Arda until the Dagor Dagorath.

@glorgau

4 ай бұрын

First she did a stopover in the Halls of Mandos...

@neil999ish

3 ай бұрын

She had the choice to make when Elrond left Middle Earth, to depart with him or remain and become mortal. At their parting she said to Aragorn 'There is no ship that will now take me'. I gather that to be since she chose to stay and be mortal, she couldn't rescind that 'choice'. Also in Tolkiens story, that he says 'Those Elves who stay, will fade and become shadows of the past'. This could mean they become in 'time' legend and folklore as the 4th and any subseqeunt age advances.

@Makkaru112

2 ай бұрын

@@neil999ish yes and no. Elves mate for life so when she betrothed to Aragorn when he was 17, ontop of her giving a particular gift to Frodo after talking with him for a long time in the Garden Of Kings where she hoped he could go to Valinor or Tol Eressea in his stead. Galadriel did the same on two different simultaneously occasions as well which solidified him a spot to sail west with or without his successful self sacrificing deeds to help free Sauron from his long grip upon Middle Earth.

The last elf is probably a surfer bum in California or a New Age Traveller in Cornwall. "Yeah, I have funny ears. What of it?"

It is entirely safe to assume that at some point during his life Aragorn visited the Havens and met Cirdan, and in any event Aragorn would have news of the events in a realm that neighbored his, if for no other reason than on account of the Elves who passed through his realms on the way there.

People forget that the elves are immortal. Their bodies can be slain but that would just vault their souls into the halls of Mandos (uncertain on spelling), which is in the undying lands. So even after they diminished their souls would travel to the undying lands as, unlike men, they were tied to the world itself.

Wonderful video. Your voice, the art, the content. I've always felt that some small remnant of elven kind still exists in our world.

Thank you for this wonderful video! Your videos are becoming huge favourites of mine!

What I always found strange was Arwen. I understand her grief, yet she had children who would live much longer than other mortal men, and grandchildren, great grandchildren etc. seeing them grow and live would have been a blessing, and of course a curse watching them die. But still, I can’t imagine leaving my children if I had the opportunity to watch them grow and live.

(Elves near extinction) Why the elves couldn’t help as much as some may have wished at the final battle of we Helms Deep & other places: By the Third Age of Middle-earth, the population of Elves had significantly decreased from their numbers in the earlier Ages. It is estimated that there were only a few thousand Elves remaining in Middle-earth by this time. One reason why Elves didn't have much military prowess to help out more in the Third Age is because they had already fought many battles in the previous Ages, & were weary of war ontop of Lothlòrien(where Galadriel is) being constantly attacked throughout this current story during the trilogy story but the movies never show it. Additionally, many of the great Elven kingdoms had already fallen, & the remaining Elves had scattered across Middle-earth, making it difficult to organize a large-scale military force. Furthermore, Elves had a deep respect for the natural world, and were hesitant to engage in battles that could harm the environment. They preferred to use their skills in magic and healing to assist in battles, rather than fighting directly. Despite their reduced numbers and military prowess, Elves still played an important role in the events of the Third Age. They were instrumental in the quest to destroy the One Ring, and many fought bravely in battles against Sauron's forces. However, they had to be strategic about their involvement, as they knew that they could not sustain heavy losses without risking the extinction of their entire race. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ In J.R.R. Tolkien's works, the exact population of Elves in Middle-earth during the Third Age is not explicitly stated. However, it is generally believed that their numbers had greatly diminished by this time, with only a few remaining Elven kingdoms & settlements scattered across Middle-earth. Some sources estimate that there may have been only a few thousand Elves left in Middle-earth by the Third Age. It is important to note that the exact population of Elves in Middle-earth is not a major focus of Tolkien's works, as he was more concerned with the individual characters & their journeys rather than the demographics of Middle-earth. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ While there are no exact figures given in Tolkien's works, some fans have attempted to estimate the population of Elves in Middle-earth during the Third Age using various mathematical models comparing to what was known about the past. One such estimate, based on the size of Elven settlements & their likely populations, suggests that there may have been around 100,000 Elves scattered across Middle-earth from different clans as it were with slightly different diverging history at certain points during the Third Age. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ The population of Elves in Middle-earth changed over time due to a variety of factors, including wars, migrations, & natural disasters. During the First Age, Elves were relatively numerous and lived in many different kingdoms & settlements across Middle-earth. However, many of these kingdoms were destroyed during the wars against Morgoth, the first Dark Lord. During the Second Age, the population of Elves began to decline as many Elves left Middle-earth to sail to the Undying Lands, a paradise-like realm across the sea. This was largely due to the influence of the Valar, the angelic beings who created the world, who offered the Elves a chance to escape the sorrows and limitations of mortal life in Middle-earth. By the time of the Third Age, the population of Elves in Middle-earth had greatly diminished. Many of the great Elven kingdoms had fallen, & the remaining Elves had scattered across Middle-earth in small, isolated settlements. This was partly due to the wars of the First Age and the destruction of many Elven kingdoms, as well as the gradual decline of the Elves' power & influence in Middle-earth. Overall, the population of Elves in Middle-earth declined over time, with many Elves leaving for the Undying Lands & many others being killed in wars and other conflicts. By the end of the Third Age, the Elves' numbers had greatly diminished, & they were a shadow of their former glory in Middle-earth. It’s been their fight for ages alone before Men came along and many of them befriended Men from the very beginning. They share the same fights/The same histories etc! Let’s just say it used to be a few million so imagine what Galadriel & her husband have seen regarding experiencing their entire race that still dwelled upon middle earth nearly being wiped out into extinction…

Many Green and Sylvan Elves stayed in Middle Earth they have no connection to the High Elves who did indeed cross over to the sea.

Yeah just because the last ship sales doesn’t necessarily mean every last elf in ME was on board…

Excellent analysis. Thank you.

Cirdan did not have golden hair. But was gray haired and bearded. One of the very first , perhaps THE first elf to awake

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

Círdan is equally as old as Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë(Elu Thingol), Olwë, Nelwë, Now(which that or Nelwë was Círdan’s true name), 30,000. The elves third cycle as it’s called.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

They all are a few generations down from Tata&Tatyë, Imin&Iminyë, Enel&Enelyë, the other part of the story is those ambassadors towards Valinor that lead the hosts on the gravest journey across the entire continent of Middle Earth were literally one of the sons from each of those three pairs of OG elves that I just mentioned. And Gold hair means it’d be a Vanyar Elf and they are very special and rare.

@Alexs.2599

3 ай бұрын

Yes that's because he was in his third life cycle. When they reached that cycle Elves could Indeed grow beards.

@Alexs.2599

3 ай бұрын

​@@Makkaru112Speaking of them I have always wondered what happened to the first Three fathers and Mothers of the Elves. They rejected the summons to Valinor. Maybe they traveled further east at some point.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

​@@Alexs.2599Perhaps the Dark Hunter got them in the early days.

Nicely done Sir! You earned my subscription!

I like to think Maglor was still hovering around somewhere all Solitary playing his music even during the book times and after...

300th like here, this was a very interesting video. Well thought out and thought inducing.

The images look stunning.

This was an excellent telling

You should read the letters of JRR Tolkien. He added a lot of clarifications which are not in the histories or the completed works. He said very clearly in one of his letters that the Avari do not leave, and cannot leave. When they refused the initial summons from the Valar the choice was irrevocable. I assume the choice also applied to their children. Only Eldar can leave, but Eldar includes those who set out to leave but changed their minds. Legolas can leave because he's an Eldar, even though he never stepped foot in Valinor. Most of the Mirkwood elves are Avari, but they have an Eldar ruling class. Thranduil can leave if he wants but there's nothing in the lore to indicate that he ever does. My guess is he has something to do with the Wild Hunt in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. To understand where Tolkien was going you have to also look at his sources of inspiration.

@silverdragon710

3 ай бұрын

What do you presume does Thranduil have with the Wild Hunt?

Great video! I think though that you might have missed Arwen's reply to Aragorn when he stated the choices left to her after he would pass away: - "Nay dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the NUmenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scored them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar Say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." To me that indicates that Arwen believed that there was no actual prospect of her going to the Undying Lands now - perhaps Cirdan and the last of his kin had left by then. Any elves that might have remained were probably mostly from the Avari, who refused the initial summons. Legolas' group who settled Ithilien would have been largely Avari, since that was the population of his father's people in the Greenwood, a part of whom he took to Ithilien. I suspect these were among the very last elves in Middle Earth. There's also the unknown fate of Maglor, who threw his Silmaril into the sea when he could not hold it, and lingered by the shore for who knows how long? In the book, it stated he may have cast himself into the sea eventually, but he may not have done. But I think probably he would perish through weariness, a broken heart or a quenching of his spirit, much as his grandmother did on giving birth to his father.

@scubastevewright

3 ай бұрын

Arwen cannot go because she chose to be mortal. Period.

@willmercury

3 ай бұрын

​@@scubastevewright Sounds like your on yours. Do elves menstruate?

@scubastevewright

3 ай бұрын

@@willmercury so, you are just an ass?

@nerdytom6881

3 ай бұрын

Arwen was no longer 'legally' an elf. It implies that she did not age, but after Elessar died went to Lothlorien and lay down and died. Elves were capable of this, and it was a last defence against sorrow or torment. However she did not appear in the Halls of Mandros where dead elves go, but was entitled to the unknown benefits of the afterlife Eru provided. This is the closest hint we have to what the Gift of Man is. Elves are immortal and do not sicken, but an elf who dies goes to a afterlife crafted by an archangel, Men are mortal and doomed to die, but dead men go to an afterlife crafted by God.

I love listening LOTR lore in the background.

I always assumed some stayed and especially in places like Gondor and Arnor intermingled with the population

I don’t think Aragorn fully understood the doom of Arwen, and her brothers, that they had to leave with Elrond or accept the doom of men. That was cast at the end of the first age and start of the second, when the half eleven, (and part Maia), Elrond and Elros, had to chose humanity or eleven kind . I personally suspect the departure of the last of the Elves marked the end of the fourth age, along with the final disappearance of other thinking and speaking creatures like the Ents and Dwarves, leaving only humans, by which point, over many centuries, the descendants of Arwen and Aragon had multiplied and spread, until it was impossible for the line of Luthien and Beren to be destroyed, without it being an end of human kind too.

@user-td9hp6li5h

3 ай бұрын

The movies I think changed the lore a bit to say that Arwen and her brothers *had to leave with him* (or before him) or they would die. That isn't however how JRRT framed it in the books. It was Arwen's choice to cleave herself to a mortal that doomed her to die, not whether she accompanied her father. Therefore, her brothers could have escaped her fate if they had left at some point after Elrond had already gone. My personal view - not backed up by anything JRRT wrote, i.e. my "headcanon" - is that they stayed to make sure their sister was OK and remained until after she passed away. At some point after that (they may or may not have stayed a bit longer to make sure Eldarion's rule started out well, being his only uncles), I feel they would have sailed over to Sea, not least to meet with their mother again, whom they lost centuries before to orcs and who would have probably have been reincarnated by then. I think Aragorn would have known the consequences - after all, he grew up in the same way as an Elvish lord would in Elrond's house. His own distant family history of Beren and Luthien was an instructive tale which he clearly knew of.

@trevorelliston1

3 ай бұрын

@@user-td9hp6li5h I share your view on why they stayed but think in the books it said they had to leave with Elrond., I will have to check. I suspect Celeborn may also have stayed (at least in part) for a similar reason.

I feel like a very quiet backdrop soundtrack would make these more soothing to listen to.

That’s the greatest image of Arwen I’ve EVER seen.

Don't forget, it says in Appendix B of return of the king that Sam boarded the last ship after Rosie's death.

Great job!

I would love to hear you do your own readings of the books 🧐🤩

consider that Cirdan wouldn't allow Gimli to sail west thus Legolas said he would build his own ship and sail with Gimli

@user-td9hp6li5h

3 ай бұрын

Gimli might have been the reason that Legolas set sail when he did. After all, Legolas had no especial need to go then, being immortal and able to build his own ship, except for the fact that Gimli was not immortal and was old by then, and perhaps not long for the world.

Very enjoyable!

Thank you for keeping Middle Earth alive🤗🥰🌎

Good job!

Whatever the reason or which elf clan they belong to, as stated in the prophecy of Mandos, the elves who choose to stay in Middle-earth are doomed to fade away faster than the rest of the Arda Marred.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

Who was he to say, really? The Elves were created by Eru Iluvatar, and he would be the judge of their ultimate fate.

Cirdan the Inept if he built a ship with the sail behind the shrouds and backstays. 1.42

I believe the first born who remained in Middle Earth existed for some time, likely deep into the 4th age. Many would have experienced heartbreak, some reduced to near/madness and reduced in wisdom and heartiness. Yes, some would have built ships and sailed West. Others, I believe, passed to the Halls of Mandos as I believe did Arwen. Perhaps the firstborn who remained behind devolved into what our cultural stories became "cryptids," such as Leprechauns.

@dorapozidis1841

3 ай бұрын

Arwen, like her foremother Lúthien, chose mortality when they married their respective husbands, Aragorn and Beren. It is said that once the Choice is made, it can never be reversed. Both Arwen and Lúthien when they died, they went where the Secondborn were sent and only Illuvatar knew where. The Secondborn return for the Dagor Dagorath. Moments before Aragorn died, he asked Arwen to take a ship and sail West. She responded that there would be no ship to take her. Tolkien however has stated that Maglor never sailed West.

Some or many stayed I think. Cirdan, I think deserves a vacation in Valinor.

Ive always imagined that Arwen waits until her son is well settled onto the throne and then leaves. Ive also imagined that Legolas and Gimli waited until after Aragorns death to pass into the west

The video is great in many aspects, so thanks and congratulations :) Still, some Elves remained in Middle-earth (our world according to Tolkien) in later ages. But they lost their ancient greatness.

@williampo8304

3 ай бұрын

I believe the Elves according to Tolkien became the clergy of the mortal men...Druids maybe?...mortal now but still a bit magical and wise...

@glishev

3 ай бұрын

@@williampo8304 You might be quite right. In some ways, Rivendell was maybe inspired by Papal Rome: a place powerful not with armies but with knowledge, ruled by a lord of vast connections and influence over kings, the place of an influential Council.

Great video! Subscribed. Have to check out your other videos :) Maybe both versions are true. Maybe Legolas had to build his own ship, because some of the Elves of Ithilien decided to stay in Middle-earth and the others who wished to go to Aman had already left when Elessar passed away. And I can't remember if Tolkien said that the Avari were even aware that they would fade if they stayed in Middle-earth. Did they even now that? And what about Daeron, Elrohir and Elladan?

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

Nimrodel, Mithrellas as well as many others. Glorfindel stayed with us too. Tolkien hinted at some sort of Eldar/Quendi had contact with him which lead to the whole RedBook being written/transcribed

@thomasplinguidy4588

3 ай бұрын

If Legolas had to build his ship himself, he would have had competent help: according to Tolkien, he sailed together with Gimli - and the dwarf was known to be a capable craftsman. :)

A lot of ghost and phantoms we feel today are probably faded elves that stayed middle earth

If memory serves, all those elves that witnessed the trees in Valinor, along with their descendants, had the light of creation in them and would hear the call of the sea and leave for Valinor, while those that chose to stay in Middle Earth did not.

That quote about Elves living during the time of the kings refers to the Kings or Arnor and Gondor earlier in the third age.

I think the three elven lords in the poem did not include Thranduil, because i cant picture him giving up his kingdom in his pride. But cant imagine who else it may be. Glorfindel, maybe? I dont think JRRt specified when he returned.

@thomasplinguidy4588

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, but what's a king without a people? If even his son Legolas sailed west - along with the dwarf Gimli - most of his subjects probably left too.

@user-td9hp6li5h

3 ай бұрын

It's not specified indeed, but my assumption would be that Glorfindel left when Elrond did.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

​@@thomasplinguidy4588Not if they were Avarri, or even descendents of the Eluwaith and Greenelves. Why would they want to go? Heaven can be boring, while the real world holds challenges.

I'm late to the show, sadly. I was distracted by some Elven friends in whose compa'ny time passes... well, oddly. So I can confirm, they're are still here. And they're pretty nice guys.

An interesting take, but I think it's incomplete in that it leaves out many of JRRT's writings from the History of Middle-Earth. There are intriguing "philosophical" writings on the nature of Elves. While never part of the works published in his lifetime, they do constitute the reams of thoughts going through his mind in the near 20 years of his life after publication of the LotR. Of especial note here is the "fact" that in mortal lands, sooner or later their Fëar (their spirit or soul) would burn out their physical bodies, leaving behind an insubstantial existence. Tolkien's way of segueing to the Fey, Sidhe, Fairies of later human stories, I can only presume. There is also, in the back of my mind - and I've been trying to find the quote again in the thousands of pages of HoME - something about Avari losing the right to go West! There was a cut-off, it seems, a veritable "you snooze, you lose"! How that would work when, while still corporeal, they could at worst physically end their lives and find themselves in the Halls of Mandos and thence be reborn? No idea! Perhaps it ended very sadly: losing their bodies, becoming pure Fëa, they could no longer physically die and so never even leave Middle-Earth. There was something about that turning them malicious and bitter, again linking to modern folk tales of the Unseelie? As for the short Last Ship: if we want to be nit-picky, Celeborn and Cirdan were not kings and were never referred to as such. So, who the 3 Elven kings were remains speculative. My reading of the brief story was always that it was focused on the fate of the mortal human stuck to remain rather than the literal "who" on that ship. How long did the Elven settlement in Ithilien last? That may be tied to how long the Elessarian Renaissance of the re-united Kingdom lasted: while agonisingly brief, we do get the impression that, unsurprisingly going by JRRT's Weltanschauung, a new shadow arrived far too soon, in the lifetime of Elessar's son or grand-son. As is typical of humans. In the blink of an eye for Elves. They may have carried on a bit longer after Legolas, but if Gondorian kids started playing at being Orcs and some new cult arising, they would have gone back to be beings of suspicion and fear. Legolas building his own boat and leaving from Belfalas may have just been convenience (or because Gimli was too old for a journey through Eregion) and continuing a tradition going back to Amroth's days. Fun speculation, though I've tried to stick to "I bloody *know* I read that, but it's all a jumble from the info overload that is HoME".

Thanks!

@RealmsUnravelled

Ай бұрын

Hi Jim, thanks so much for your kind support! 😊

A very interesting video - thank you. The fires have called and I have answered. ;) But there is a question lingering in my mind, given all those uncertainties in Tolkiens work. Would it be feasible and 'wise'/acceptable to continue his work and expand the world of Middle-Earth with new stories, myths and histories? Not in the form of fan fiction, but in a way that these works would be considered as part of the canon?

Nowadays one cannot trust anything digital being free from AI anymore. But if this is your real voice, it it beautiful and I could listen to it night and day.

Where do these illustrations come from? They are amazing.

Thanks so much

I like to think that many magical beings that were left slowy disappeared throughout Middle Earth after the last ship left for Valinor. These beings, including Elves, Dwarves, Fairies and Gnomes, were sometimes spotted by the Celts and other groups of people, and inspired the fairytales of Europe and England.

Nice video, It's a sa d thought that all Elves departed although the offspring of the elf/man unions remained but this sadness runs through all Tolkien's tales concerning Middle Earth. One small criticism and it is a very small one, Cirdan ought to be pronounced with the letter R trilled. This isn't normal for an Englishman I know but Tolkien would have liked it that way. If you listen to interviews with him he nearly always did that.

@anni.68

4 ай бұрын

But people in Middle-earth had different accents, too, just like we do. Maybe the Hobbits or the Men of Laketown did not roll the "R" in Cirdan, either. Greeks say Umvurrgo when they talk about the city of Hamburg in Germany :D:D:D And it's not wrong, it's just the Greek way to say the name. I am German and I always say Cirdan with a long, clear, open mouth "a" like in "under" or "unsure". I am sure that Cirdan himself heard many different pronunciations of his name from many different people in Middle-earth.

@DanBeech-ht7sw

4 ай бұрын

Cirrrrdan, Morrrrrdorrrrrr, Merrrrry, Perrrrregrrrrine, Gondorrrrrr, Borrrrromirrrrrr, Farrrramirrrr

@anni.68

4 ай бұрын

@@DanBeech-ht7sw nah, the "r" in Merry is English, totally different from thr "r" in the elvish names.

@DanBeech-ht7sw

4 ай бұрын

@@anni.68 well, you may be rrrrrright

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

@@anni.68yup. Listen to Finnish ! There is one Fin fellow who did the lament of Finrod Felagund and it was beautiful. Sung like a dirge

"The Last Ship" was, Tolkien told us, a tale of Firiel, a woman who was a long-ago ancestor of Aragorn. I have always read it as noting a change in the departure point for the Elves sailing to Valinor -- the ships to the West no longer sailed "down the seven rivers", but rather thereafter set off from the Grey Havens, under the watchful eye of Cirdan. Who the three kings were, I have no idea; although your interpretation is an interesting one. Perhaps the poem is one that blends history with prediction? The fact remains that the poem was ancient before the Ring was destroyed.

When finally the fea, the spirit, of elves that remained overcomed their hroa, the body, they lost their autonomy, and become directly subservient to the Valar. Then the Valar just whispered "Come".

Elves have pain in their hearts. Maybe the reason why some stayed and some set sail to Valinor.

CIrdan wasnt a "king"; if it was 3 kings it was probably Celeborn who according to the appendices stayed behind for quite awhile after Galadriel left

@persebra

3 ай бұрын

king is just a poetic word for boss. cirdan was certainly a boss

@tonyf8167

3 ай бұрын

@@persebra havent read much Tolkien, have you... the title would have been a VERY important designation.

@persebra

3 ай бұрын

@@tonyf8167 "the title would have been a VERY important designation." not from a poet's standpoint. remember the main poem rings for 3 Elvin kings. etc... None of the holders were "kings", were they?

@tonyf8167

3 ай бұрын

@@persebra were not talking about a poem, the info is covered in the appendices

You'd think Arwen would have gone straight to the undying lands. There her grief would cease to exist.

I learned a lot

What about the sons of Elrond? I know they stayed after their father left but was under the impression they planned to go to Valinor eventually.

@Makkaru112

3 ай бұрын

Mainly to be with their sister Arwen. But as my short story shows both for Elurèd & Elurín equally to Elledan & Elrohir both for various reasons to take the opposite choice of eachother. It’s hard to explain without giving the whole story away

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

3 ай бұрын

Really? What writings of Tolkien gave you that impression? Just stick to the books son.

@persebra

3 ай бұрын

i bet they left with their grand daddy.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

​@user-nz6dx2fj6h The books are numerous and sometimes contradictory, as Christopher Tolkien was wont to publish his father's writer's notes. I used to joke that every time he found a scrap of paper with his father's handwriting on it wrapping an old flowerpot it went into the legendarium.

@user-nz6dx2fj6h

2 ай бұрын

@@erynlasgalen1949 As a member of the Tolkien Society I find that offensive. As a reader, I find it offensive. I pretty much find it offensive. No one is allowed to criticise Tolkeins works or his sons.

I agree with your conclusion: that after the departure of Celeborn, Thranduil, Cirdan, and Legolas, in FA 120, it seems likely that several thousand Silvan elves remained in Ithilien, Lindon, the Falas, and in Thranduil's lands in northern Mirkwood. Another aspect of Middle Earth that we have no knowledge of, is the overall distribution of Elven-kind in the first centuries after their awakening at Cuiviénen. This place was in the far east, on the inland Sea of Helcar, and who's to say that all of the Avari migrated westward toward Eriador and Beleriand? Might some groups of Avari headed south, and ended up in Far Harad, or further East, along the east coast of the continent, far, far beyond the limits of any maps held in Gondor, Numenor, or Imladris? As mentioned in other sources, Allatar and Pallando never returned to report on their journeys into the far east and south, and who can say what they might have discovered about the people they met? Tolkien limited his stories to the areas mapped in LOTR and The Silmarillion, and after the War of Wrath, much of the world was radically altered - the maps in The Silmarillion no longer applied (Beleriand was mostly inundated), and after the Akallabeth, the world was not even flat - it was now a sphere and the Undying Lands were completely removed to a different plane of existance. Tolkien made it clear in his later writings that "the world" is "our" world, which implies that The Shire, Gondor, Rohan, Rhovanion, and Rhun are all on the Eurasian continent. Far Harad is probably Africa, and somewhere far to the west of the Grey Havens, lie the lands that would one day be known as the Americas, while seven thousand miles to the east of The Shire, one would come to the western coast of the Pacific Ocean in China and the Russian Far East. Could it be that groups of the Avari ended up there, completely beyond the scope of even the furthest known travels of anyone we know of from LOTR and The Silmarillion, except possibly Alatar and Pallando (and Ulmo, of course, the Lord of all waters in Arda). Could there have been Elves in the America's, blown there by storms in ships sailing from Middle Earth after the Akallabeth? Tolkien never expanded his writing to explore such possibilities, but he did state in his letters that Middle Earth is on "our" planet Earth, just very far removed from us in the remote past. So it's not impossible that "in-universe", Elves could have migrated to all of the Eurasian landmass, Africa, and possibly the Americas. Those Elves would likely have been completely unaware of the War of the Ring and the downfall of Sauron, and simply gone on about their lives. And who's to deny the possibility that some of the Entwives might still survive in some forest in the Far East; I'd like to think so. Tolkien never specifies "how many" ships per year Cirdan was building, or "how many" individual elves were departing during the last years of the third age and the first century of the fourth. But I have read somewhere that when Cirdan built the Last Ship, he was aware, either through his own senses, or perhaps as a intuition granted him by the Valar, that all of the elves who wished to move to the Undying Lands would be aboard when the time came for departure, and that he would not need to worry that he would leave anyone behind.

Imladris, home of Elrond and his sons, Elladan and Elrohir seems to have been missed. Plus Glorfindel would also be staying there beyond the departure of Elrond, then Celeborn.

I recall the tools of Cirdan were left at Grey Havens so that other elves could use them to build their ships that could go to the Undying Lands. The Sylvan/Sinda Elves had never seen the lands of the Valinor and were not as inclined to go as the Noldo and so, at least according to the Tolkien Bestiary, the remained and faded into myth. Kinda makes sense. But not sure about the canonical nature of that book. 🤷‍♂️

Hence, legends and stories of diminished Elvenkind came down to the time of Tolkien himself...

DAYUM, in those pics Legolas is one fine ass elf

I have a story for you similar to the Gandalf vs Smaug one that you are welcome to add graphics to like you did here with these videos. ❤

❤❤❤popr frumos intelegent si elegant

I would suggest that the reason that Legolas built his own ship, was to not to risk the wrath of the Valar, on his people, should his life-friend Gimli, not be accepted into the Undying Lands. He would only be risking his own and Gimli's lives and not those of the people he led in Ithilien.

The elf thumbnail for this video looks like Maureen Montagne who is a beauty queen from the Philippines

The Elves with Legolas might have come from Greenwood with the understanding that their stay in Ithilen would be temporary. And Legolas and Gimli might not be able to handle an ocean journey with just the two of them.

It is part of Tolkein's mythology that some elves remained and they are still with us today, having Faded, we cannot see them unless they purposefully choose to reveal themselves to our minds.

Wasn't the straight road reserved only for the Elves that saw the light of the trees, including the Sindar? But the Green elves and the refusers never settled in Beleriand, and thus never saw the light, even in the twilight. This would mean, that while the road is open to them, they would never feel the call. Nor long for something they never had to begin with. This would translate to these elves eventually becoming the fey spirits of old, that Tolkien associated with tree and bush, spring and lake. And they eventually faded into oblivion, becoming more spirits and memories then actual living matter.

@user-td9hp6li5h

3 ай бұрын

Hmm, perhaps. Though take Legolas for instance. Though largely Sindarin, he would not have seen the Light of the Trees himself as he was born in Middle Earth. His ancestors were probably from the group who stayed in Middle Earth to look for Elwe (Thingol) when he vanished on meeting Melian, so they never crossed the sea in the first place either. And yet, we know that Legolas went over the straight road (not to mention Frodo, Bilbo and it said Gimli who weren't even Elves) Cirdan is also another from Elwe's group who never crossed over the sea, until he eventually (probably) did.

@ilejovcevski79

3 ай бұрын

@@user-td9hp6li5h good points all, though by seeing the light here (as mentioned above) i also included those who saw the light from Beleriand as well, as the light from the trees could be spotted as a distant shimmer in the west, at least for those of elven senses. Aside from that, the call of the west was extended not only to those that saw the trees themselves but to their descendants as well, like Elrond for example, who wasn't even a full bloodied elf, and to his children as well, which make them 2 generations removed from the original "Valinorians". Alternatively, there is a possibility that the call was felt not by those that made the journey, as in completed it, but those who undertook it, even though they never finished it. This would mean that all but the Avari felt it. And by extension this means literally ALL the elves we come in contact with through SImarillion, The Hobbit and LOTR. But then again, the invitation by the Powers was never really extended to them after the War of Wrath. At least not as far as i can remember.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

Hmm . . . What of Eol, who most certainly lived in Beleriand? He seems to have been one of the Lindi, if not actually Avarren. I think there were Greenelves in Beleriand.

@ilejovcevski79

2 ай бұрын

@@erynlasgalen1949 in the land of Ossiriand yes. Are we to consider them among the avari though? They went on the journey, though they did stray from the path among the first. As for Eol himself, while one of the few elves explicitly labeled as "dark", had he survived the end of the First Age, i like to think the Powers would extend the invitation to him as well. Though, he would probably refuse it, as he seems to want to have nothing to do with Valinorians, except maybe take some of them as wives...

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

@ilejovcevski79 "Seldom were tales of lust told among the Eldar . . ." I guess Eol would be a rare exception, eh? Although the maiden at first was not unwilling. Sorry, it is often hard to reconcile the various writings of Tolkien, and I don't take it as seriously as Scripture. I do recall mention of Avvari making it over the Misty Mountains, but I really can't remember where. I've been at this since 2005, and I'm not as young as I once was.

This was a lovely episode. I especially appreciated the only time I have seen nearly *all* the representations of the elves *without* those infernal pointed ears. Can someone *please* confirm with me that, nowhere in the entire world of Arda, has there ever been word of any of Ilúvatar's children having pointed ears (including hobbits and dwarves). I'm pretty sure that it continues in paintings and artistic representations only as a trope. Am I wrong?

@grossepointemichigan

2 ай бұрын

In "The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien," he states that hobbit ears are slightly pointed and 'elvish.' There's also a reference to Elvish ears as "leaf shaped." It's actually a little more nuanced than this but you get the picture. So I think you can infer that Elven ears are gently pointed, but not the ridiculous "can opener" spikes that one sees in some illustrations. In my opinion, the shape of their ears, when compared to mortals, would be subtly different.

@erynlasgalen1949

2 ай бұрын

​@grossepointemichigan I've heard of them as being shaped like elm leaves, but darned if I can remember where I read that in all of the published Tolkien papers. I envision my Elves with a slight point able to be hidden behind hair or considered to be a minor deformity if seen in modern times. I think too much anime has slipped into Tolkien fanart lately.

Solid presentation, I liked your video. However it has a few small errors which compound as you analyse and come to your conclusions. 1. There is no singular 'Last Ship' except by happenstance. Any ship built to make the one way journey to Valinor is called a Last Ship. The finality is based on the nature of the journey, not the order of departure. There logically would indeed be a last-to-depart Last Ship, probably crewed by 'rustic elves' in a latter age. It's import might not even be remarked upon in Valionr at its arrival if other elves yet lingered and never made the journey, 2. Elves do not have any urge to remain in Middle Earth per se, they have instead a lack of urge to depart for Valinor, cultivated by living deep inland in isolated and semi-wild places. The urge is triggered by proximity to the sea. Whether the western ocean triggers this or any sea is uncertain. When Galadriel sent tidings to the Fellowship she included a warning to Legolas to avoid the shores, or the sound of gulls. Legolas had to risk this by following Aragorn to confront the Corsairs. Since that time he was doomed to leave Middle Earth, but remained while Ellesar was alive. It is likely that Gimli also grounded him enough to dampen the call. For the record the grey ship Legolas made which he used to Gimli to travel to Valinor is a Last Ship. 3. Cirdan left with Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf as ring bearers of the three Elven Rings. So his departure was early in King Elessar's reign. This Last Ship was the Ringbearers ship and was an important portent. It should be noted that Cirdan dwelt in the Grey Havens for many millenia. How did he achieve this? By building the Last Ship he was to depart on slowly over the course of centuries. He worked on it to keep the hunger of departure at bay and keep his peace, yet tarried so he could remain in Middle Earth. So. Cirdan, a ringbearer, did not depart with Thranduil. The Last Ship poem most likely refers to the Ringbearers Last Ship. Perhaps the most important of its kind due to its significance in Valinor and to us as it is the ship Merry and Pippin saw depart. The three crowned heads are Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel. However this is conjecture and it is possible that it refers to another Last Ship carrying royalty. Perhaps Thranduil's ship, perhaps an earlier ship built when the exile of the Noldor ended after the war of Wrath.

At least one elf would definitely remain...Maglor was not allowed to return after the Oath and the Doom of Mandos. He supposedly still wanders the shores or the world lamenting what happened.

@michaelhart7569

2 ай бұрын

Correct. I have often thought that somebody might find Maglor and ask him whereabouts he threw the Silmaril into the sea. Maybe also offer him a recording contract for his music. I recall reading that he was accounted the second best among all the elves. :)

I like the artwork on these videos. How does he do it?

@only_truthsaik9481

2 ай бұрын

artwork on these videos are not his… you see that this channel don’t give credit to artists…he put his watermark on others art. i cannot believe it…

@only_truthsaik9481

2 ай бұрын

I must apologies to @RealmsUnravelled ! it is his art …he didn’t detail this anywhere until his last video! i apologies for my comment before! i was wrong! 🙏 p.s great artwork!

One thing that has always bugged me: The children of Elrond Halfelven were supposed to leave Middle-Earth when he did or stay there forever. That is why Arwen was "condemned" to remain even after Aragorn died. But we are told (in the introduction) that Elrond's sons "long remained" at Rivendell. So did they die or fade or were they allowed to leave?

@grossepointemichigan

2 ай бұрын

The twins could leave if they wanted to leave. But Tolkien left that unanswered (whether or not they did leave). There is, I believe, a reference to this in "Letters by J. R. R. Tolkien."

@spacemissing

2 ай бұрын

It seems to be implied that Elladan and Elrohir stayed permanently in Middle-Earth, accepting whatever fate that brought to them.

Can I ask why this didn't make mention of Elledan and Elrohir? There is a line in LOTR that says of the possibility of them leaving "of that journey, no tale tells". I am probably wrong, but I always took that to mean they were among those that stayed and either died or diminished.

So where is this place they all sailed to? You would think considering many had ships. They would attempt to go there as well. Also means the various elves do still exist just in a place either already populated by others or their own now.