I always viewed "Grey Jedi" as just a thing someone was, as opposed to an organized group. There was no "Grey order," they were just Jedi who had a different sort of relationship with the force than most members of the order, or who didn't follow a significant number of the order's traditions but were still part of it.

@moonprincess_xoxo

Жыл бұрын

same. thats how i thought of ashoka.

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

The way I think of grey jedi is someone who is aligned with the light side yet not apart of the jedi as a political organization. They are still light-side, they just aren't involved in the institutuion of the jedi. I think Qui-gon could be sort of considered a grey jedi in this sense that he was very much a light side aligned jedi, yet very seperate from the jedi as an institution. I think people think oh their grey, they balance the light and dark, when we know the force doesn't work that way, the dark side is corrupting, Anakin thought he could control the dark side for good, as did Dooku. Yet they both fell. I think its also part of these people's stupid idea that centrism is somehow a coherent ideology.

@Godlyfishy

Жыл бұрын

jedis are cultists sith are cultists if i was in star wars with the force i wouldnt be a jedi or a sith i would just be a guy with the force

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

@@Godlyfishy I mean okay, but there's still the light side and the dark side, thats the issue in question.

@flashyk2430

Жыл бұрын

@@alexisborden3191 maul solos

If we’re talking characters who didn’t fit the light vs dark mold of Star Wars, Vectivus deserves a mention. He was a dark side user who was also a businessman, had no interest in conquering or destroying the galaxy, and was very strict when it came to keeping his workers safe and happy with their jobs. He was also a full-blown Sith Lord.

@brawler8839

Жыл бұрын

I will always refer to him as Darth Businessman and he will always be a giga chad in my mind.

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

Heading a corporation is perfectly in line with the teachings of the sith. Its called profit, and it comes above all else, its selfish.

@theirishviking9278

Жыл бұрын

@@alexisborden3191 guessing he found out that having happy workers improved output, thereby improving profits

@brawler8839

Жыл бұрын

@@theirishviking9278 if i remember correctly, he actually refused to have his workers continue working on the asteroid he got his powers on as despite it being profitable, he didn't want his workers dying to increase profits. Dude literally died of old age surrounded by friends and loved ones so he was just genuinely a nice dude.

@theirishviking9278

Жыл бұрын

@@brawler8839 generally when people suddenly start dying on a job and there told to keep doing it people start to very quickly look for new work not very profitable

I was recently commenting on Cal Kestis being a possible Grey Jedi. And man, oh man I realized the fandom I was apart of has always had its share of controversy or debate. Dude I had hundreds of comments debating left and right about the existence of the Grey Jedi hidden within the lore or just straight up pure fan fiction. God!

@DefinitiveToast

Жыл бұрын

yeahhhh.. The fanbase is rabid dogs at times.

@isaiahcolesanti275

Жыл бұрын

@@DefinitiveToast Yeah im a hardcore fan just not a rabid dog.

@WolfPackGameing

Жыл бұрын

but did you learn? that's whats important, I think the main reason so many people (Myself included) are so passionate about it is because many misunderstand individuals like Revan, and Bane as "Grey Jedi" but, Bane was never trained as a Jedi and always used the darkside. But what Revan and Bane became were force grand masters, individuals who cast aside the notion of light and dark and accepted the force for what it is. To where the general term for Grey Jedi is used to describe someone like Jolee Bindo who was a Jedi, but left the order due to his own personal reasons and fell out of touch with the Code, But always resisted the darkside. It would be equivalent to calling a 3 start Michelin Chef a Cook, People like Bane and Revan are truly masters of their craft, Bane himself made multiple lightsaber forms that integrated the force, also created techniques of the force no one learned from him such as true immortality(He was killed as he was about to finish the ritual), Revan found new ways to manipulate the force, others of this caliber were literally able to discover abilities of the force that were so terrifying they could never use them, such as being able to cut entire planets off from the force forever as well as being able to heal force scars and manipulate the midichalorians in a individual. Calling them Grey Jedi puts them in the category of Jolee Bindo who while a great Jedi never really put any work into learning or understanding the force, so many people see it as a dishonor to combine them.

@dizawnofwizar

Жыл бұрын

the bloody logo of the game is the grey jedi logo

@isaiahcolesanti275

Жыл бұрын

@@WolfPackGameing Yeah Bane was a pure Sith I’ve read two of the books. He studied heavily as a Sith in the ancient ways and literally commited atrocities that made him submit to only the Darkside of the Force he was a master in Force Lightning, Used Ancient Sith Rituals to amp his powers and he was a Brute in Lightsaber Combat.

It's funny how Yoda's idea of dipping into the dark side leads to an inevitability dark path is actually seen in KotOR, Jedi Knight, etc. because everyone just gets force lightning cos its cool, and then you think ... welll maybe life drain isn't so bad ... soon enough you have force storm, you harvest life from your enemies, but in dialogue you're a happy-go-lucky starfarer making your way across the galaxy.

@samwilsoncaptainamerica233

Жыл бұрын

Technically speaking Yoda (and the other jedi) was kind of a hypocrites. Jedi have do some messed things (like sending kids to war) and justify it by saying "it's for the greater good" like that makes it better.

@kaizokuAUTO

Жыл бұрын

@@samwilsoncaptainamerica233 They'd justify it by saying that the Jedi aren't soldiers, but peacekeepers, and that involvement in war is what the Jedi see as the fastest way to end the suffering (or some other bullshit explanation lol)

@Luchux177

Жыл бұрын

I kinda like how the force dominate power replaces the mind trick if you choose it for your powers, there's no going back to just confusing if you start wrecking people's agency.

@Hell_O7

Жыл бұрын

​@@kaizokuAUTOWhat, you want them to become space monks that just hide and meditate?

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

@@samwilsoncaptainamerica233 Yes, the jedi lost their way, that's one of the big themes of the prequels, they were supposed to be peacekeepers but what are they doing? They're waging a war without any intention of arriving to a peaceful resolution, they dismiss the seperatists as simply evil, without even stopping to think if they might have reasonable grievances. Now not all of the seperatists grievances are reasonable, yet the Jedi didn't know or care about the ones that were, all they wanted to do was play honor guard to the republic, and so they became palpatine's enablers.

Kind of fitting that the reason why Grey Jedi blew up again is because a Twitter user got angry at somebody for having fun with a idea they thought was cool.

@ltb1345

Жыл бұрын

Classic twitter.

@Hugealligator254

Жыл бұрын

@@buzasandras123 ok but why

@IronShaman81

Жыл бұрын

@Buzás András I'm sure twitter would love to hear all about it bro

@whiteerdydude

Жыл бұрын

​@@Hugealligator254 I think it's very misguided as an idea for a few reasons. 1.) The lucas movies directly contridict some kind of in-between through the behavior of characters and the stated lore by the movies' wise guys, good and evil. Anakin's actions are selfish and against the will of the force, even if it was for a (keyword) seemingly good reason. Thus he just waltzed into darkness and was almost loss. 2.) There is nothing in-between selfless and selfish. They are opposed and they are determined by your intent. Jedi are selfless and the sith are selfish. This is directly reinforced in the Opera scene. 3.) The evilness of the dark side is the subversion of what is intended to happen. Star wars has a lose destiny system where fate can be cheated, but it is always presented as a bad thing. The Jedi try to uphold fate, and they don't use the darkside because to do so would require them to force their will on the Force, which inturn interferes with fate. Grey jedi would be in a pickle on this one. 4.) Various books and lore bits have dark side users lose power in the dark when the embrace the light side and vise versa. Trying to use both without dealing with that effect is very hard to narratively do. 5.) The light and dark side are able to be measurably felt. A planet like malicore or korriban are veeeery dark side heavy and basic force users can feel it. This empirically hurts the idea of unified force since you can literally feel the difference without knowing there should be one. Just some thoughts

@Hugealligator254

Жыл бұрын

Ok you make good point

I think it’s more like people who are called Jedi but actually don’t follow the practices or beliefs of the order. However they are still light side force users though. Ashoka is a great example of this. She clearly doesn’t have the same ideology as the order she was in based on her experiences. Then there’s Ezra, who grew up outside the order and developed his own beliefs alongside Kanan. Who also had different views and had a kid which was a big no for the Jedi.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

Correct.

@pwnorbepwned

Жыл бұрын

That’s yet another way in which the term is so silly, though. Ahsoka being a lightsider who left the Jedi order is neither Grey nor Jedi, so why is Grey Jedi the term used? Because it sounds cool. There are what feels like 27 different definitions fans have for what a Grey Jedi is, and it always boils down to some Force user who’s “not like the other Jedi/Sith”, and could easily be described by some other label, but Grey Jedi sounds cool, so people use that instead.

@klaykid117

Жыл бұрын

A lot of people certainly feel that asoka is a great example of this of this and I would propose that she didn't become a gray Jedi when she left the order she became a gray jedi the moment order 66 happened and she said "I'm not going to hurt these clones that I fought for years with they're my friends" showing her emotional attachment, every other Jedi said okay clone bad now me kill

@KyoyaTategamiLEO

Жыл бұрын

“I’m no jedi” -ahsoka tano

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

@@KyoyaTategamiLEO Ahsoka was a Grey Jedi. Dedicated solely to the Light Side, but willing to part with standard Jedi rhetoric to do what is right.

I actually really enjoyed the idea of the Fel Dynasty's Imperial Knights. They were "Grey" in the sense they had to find a balance between Light and Dark and if the Emperor or Empress ever became part of the dark side then they were there to remove the threat of a Dark side ruler.

@williamthehuntsman

Жыл бұрын

Another good example from legends is the ancient jedai order. They practiced balance in the force, often guiding those who leaned more towards one side or the other to find their balance in the force. This was before turning into the jedi order and banning the use of the dark side, which created the first dark jedi abd eventually the Sith.

@ironslayer1870

Жыл бұрын

I like the idea of grey Jedi, but at least in the original trilogy Balance is not using both light and dark, but it is only the Light. The dark is like a rot on the wholesome fruit that is the force. We see this as Anakin fulfills the prophecy by eliminating the flawed order, killing the last two Sith, and leaving only the new Jedi Luke to begin again. Maybe this is what I’m interpreting it at the least.

@randomt800kiddo2

Жыл бұрын

no, they were "gray" because they were light siders who werent alligned with the jedi

Fun fact: the “Light Side” of the Force is never referred to as such in the first six movies. Only The Force and the Dark Side are ever mentioned explicitly by name. My understanding is that The Force is balance, following the Will of The Force and that the Dark Side is bending The Force to your will. I’d argue Grey Jedi are generally good guys that, like you said, act outside the general rules of the Council but don’t use the Dark Side.

All this because people want to use force lightning as a Jedi

@shanenolan5625

Жыл бұрын

Plo Koon uses force lightning ( electric judgment) and in darts plagues. He said ( even jedi can produce a facsimile of sith lightning)

@trutyatces8699

Жыл бұрын

@@shanenolan5625 yes, but do you honestly think these people are informed enough to know about electric judgment?

@krxwnvxk3432

Жыл бұрын

@@shanenolan5625yup, but sith would say that that's not true force lightning

@a1dscarver

Жыл бұрын

Idk bro, fuck electric judgement, i want uncontrollable, blue, raging lightning from my fingertips

@yokaiou5848

Жыл бұрын

​@@krxwnvxk3432 and Plo was vetted by Jedi Council.

Masterfully said at the end about not judging for why different people like Star Wars. I do think a lot of folks like myself initially grasped onto the concept of the Grey Jedi for the self fulfilling power fantasy, but that is no where close to a violence fetish. Its just everyone likes being an edgy anti-hero at one point or another. I know I did considering my first DnD character was a dark elf assassin who was a former slave. Good stuff as always.

@butnobodycame7022

Жыл бұрын

How did that Dinosaurs and Demons game go?

@ltb1345

Жыл бұрын

Not even just about being an edgy anti-hero; a lot of people like the theme of a "middle ground between two extremes" (even if it doesn't make as much sense in Star Wars, since the Light Side in itself isn't really extreme).

@rushpatriot2866

Жыл бұрын

The people that say it's a fetish are the same incels and femcels that'll call you a pedo for dating someone shorter than you or unironically like the show Velma

@danielvitale7788

Жыл бұрын

Same. I don't agree with the idea of gray jedi being neither light or dark but understanding you can't have one without the other. I also like to equate it to firebending in Last Airbender. You have almost all fire benders using it based in anger and rage. But true fire bending is different. I like the idea of the force being like that. With knowledge of anatomy and the force, one could burst all your blood vessels and kill you. But that same knowledge can help you heal someone, that type of thing.

@ItsDaKoolaidDude

Жыл бұрын

@@ltb1345 One might see where a Jedi like those of the Old Republic could be seen as extreme, seeing as in KOTOR2 the masters willingly washed and stripped someone of the force and didn't even begin to listen to anything the MC or Kreia had to say, only seeing evil needing to be purged. Though perhaps to see it in the movies or content surrounding the movies, perhaps Windu, Ki Adi Mundi, and likely a lot of other Jedi before and during the Clone Wars would fit into being extreme, as they blinded themselves too deeply into the Light Side that they never could see what was in front of them the entire time until it was too late. Where the Dark Side is an easy to see extreme, due to it being an obvious change of both physical and mental, the Light Side is a far more subtle and mental aspect. A sort of "Judge Claude Frollo" issue, where the person too deep in the Light Side would see evil everywhere and yet consider themselves pure no matter what, which coincides with the ever so popular quote "The road to hell is paved with "good intentions""

In the Darth Bane series, when he was training his apprentice, he required healing from losing his bug armor. He was taken to a planet strong with the Force, but unbound to either light or dark. On this planet, there was a healer who was terrifyingly strong with the Force but was no warrior, and neither was she Jedi or Sith. I think she referred to her flavor of the Force as focused on nature, but I doing really remember She healed Darth Bane, but his apprentice drove her insane to cover their tracks

@FrostFawks

Жыл бұрын

I came here to say this, but you're misremembering the scene. The healer's name is Caleb, who was said to draw power with The Force from the world around him - the forest, the mountains, etc. True neutral - no Light or Dark side. Caleb was murdered by Zannah, but it was Darovit she drove mad to cover their tracks.

@lumberjackofalltrades

Жыл бұрын

@@FrostFawks YES! That's the one I'm talking about. My bad, it's been almost a decade since I read that series

@FrostFawks

Жыл бұрын

@@lumberjackofalltrades No worries - same lol. I've clung to Caleb's existence as proof that there is more to The Force than just the Light & the Dark. I've been planning a D&D based around this notion - I just need to find time - ugh.

@WolfPackGameing

Жыл бұрын

@@FrostFawks I mean Darth Bane himself is proof of it, He did not become Sith by Choice but by necessity, He never saw the force as light and dark, but he understood the need for balance, He knew with no opposition the Jedi would become corrupt and far too powerful, but he also knew without moderation the Sith would lead to their own self assured annihilation, so he conviced the current "Sith" Aka Brotherhood of Darkness to use a thought bomb to destroy the Jedi, without telling them it would kill them too, and then immediately implemented the Rule of Two to maintain Balance. to be honest the main reason his apprentice could never seem to reach him in terms of ability and power is she was purely darkside, and he was always far stronger by not allowing himself to be bound, its why she struck him while he was weakened while doing a ritual for immortality.

@FrostFawks

Жыл бұрын

@@WolfPackGameing You'll have to forgive me, it has been a long time since I've last read the books. However, I do know Darth Bane was very much Sith. His philosophy was a form of Darwinism. He believed in the strong and the weak were merely tools. He disdained the Jedi, for their philosophies were weak. He dismantled the Brotherhood of Darkness, because they were weak. Bane's entire goal was to create the most powerful Sith ever seen - to destroy the Jedi and wrest control of the galaxy. I wouldn't call that "balanced" lol.

I love seeing people talk about this, man. I’ve been watching all kinds of discussions on SW stuff since I was little, and I’m just glad to see that some things don’t change.

I too always thought of grey Jedi being those who operated outside of the Jedi order. I don't imagine them using dark side powers necessarily, but rather those who reject one or more tenants of the order.

The big issue is that Jedi as an organization and ideal gets confused with the concept of being a Lightsider. If you're following the will of the Force you're in the light, if you're imposing your will on the Force you're on the path to the darkside.

@Theophan123

Жыл бұрын

And who gets to determine what is the "will of the Force?" What if the "will of the Force" requires someone to have attachments or otherwise break the Jedi Code, but not necessarily adhering to the Dark Side

@bitharne

Жыл бұрын

Nonsense. Bottom line is that good guys, in fiction, are very often actually bad guys. We suspend our disbelief for fiction… The prime example is Batman. Batman is a bad person. Period. He is, directly, responsible for so many deaths it’s bonkers. Not killing people who consistently murder is an evil act. This bleeds into the jedi and their silly goody-goody nonsense. If firing off some force lighting would save lives: you do it or you’re evil. All this morality (foisted on us by Jedi-Sith dichotomy) is seriously beyond simple when you actually look at it. We just tend to suspend these notions for an idealized, fictional, universe.

@JusticeFrogs

Жыл бұрын

@@bitharne refusing to kill people that kill people doesn't make you responsible for their crimes.

@foulmercy8095

Жыл бұрын

@@bitharne Ask General Grievous if the Jedi are “goody-goody”. Ask Mace Windu. Jedi kill in any Star Wars continuity.

@thunderspark1536

Жыл бұрын

@@bitharne The Jedi remind me of a less extreme version of Japanese samurai, where they follow a strict code and if they deviate they're cast out.

In many ways Yoda himself was a creator of Darth Vader because his answer to Anakin about feeling strong emotions was to shut them out and just bottle them... All of us who have ever dealt with strong emotions know that just trying to bottle them does not solve anything, and worse, it often allows pressure to build up until it finally explodes out. And that's one of my biggest problems with the Jedi philosophy is that it is not about working through your emotions but to discipline yourself to suppress them.

@JDog2656

6 ай бұрын

Which is why Luke in EU changed that. So it’s not that the Jedi were completely wrong, they just needed to change

@stephendonovan3206

5 ай бұрын

Yoda was just as flawed as any other sw character I mean he accepted control of a f***** slave army, any moral high ground he had disappeared right there!

@stephendonovan3206

5 ай бұрын

Yoda was just as flawed as any other sw character I mean he accepted control of a f***** slave army, any moral high ground he had disappeared right there!

@stephendonovan3206

5 ай бұрын

Yoda was just as flawed as any other sw character I mean he accepted control of a f***** slave army, any moral high ground he had disappeared right there!

@stephendonovan3206

5 ай бұрын

Yoda was just as flawed as any other sw character I mean he accepted control of a f***** slave army, any moral high ground he had disappeared right there!

Honestly I always wanted to be a grey jedi because limiting emotions seems like a pretty bad idea

@kitsune1946

Жыл бұрын

Then be a good sith lol

@dimitrifreitas2981

Жыл бұрын

It is a bad idea to limit your emotions is a part of you .

@MagnusGrey340

Жыл бұрын

And there is one of the great failures of the Jedi. All sentient beings have emotions, yet they constantly say that there is no emotion, and in turn constantly push Jedi to suppress them. Another problem is that Jedi are supposed to be compassionate, but have no bonds. Something that is impossible because for you to be compassionate you have to care about the other party first. Also there is the Jedi version of sith lightning that plo koon uses.

@gtassa01

Жыл бұрын

That's just a problem with the Jedi order. Their solution in order to prevent their disciples from falling to the dark side was to enforce rigid stoicism, cut themselves off from all attachments. Not every lightside group has to do that

@pelinalwhitestrake4196

Жыл бұрын

Except that every time a force user hasn't done that they've been an absolute menace. They're too powerful to not be able to control their own emotions. Spider-Man ring a bell? Great power comes great responsibility? Then I don't say to not recognize your emotions they say not to be a vessel for them. You are not only your emotions and allowing yourself to be dictated by your feelings alone makes you nothing better than an animal. It's the trap to power.

The Potentium idea first showed up in Rogue Planet, a book that took place a couple years after Phantom Menace that set up a lot of the things that would later be used in The Unifying Force. As for Grey Jedi, they absolutely exist, and like the color grey, they exist in a spectrum. They can just be Jedi who left the Order because they feel it's too hidebound and restrictive, with such an overwhelming fear of the Dark Side that they stifle the better parts of being alive, like love and parenthood. On the other end you have much darker specimens like the overpowered bioweapon named Galen Marek who use almost exclusively Dark Side powers and are perfectly happy to go on massacres in favor of the greater good, yet actively work against the existing Sith and their interests in favor of helping others. I think the Grey Jedi idea came about because people (writers, game designers, etc.) started to develop more and more on the idea of the Jedi Order as a stuffy group of monks who seem to have forbidden anything that makes life happy or fun because it's "an inevitable draw to the Dark Side." It turned the Jedi into protagonists that you could root for, but not identify with, because they had so little in common with any actual person outside of a convent or monastery. Grey Jedi were a way to create heroes who followed the overall goals of the Jedi Order, making them unambiguous "good guys" while also making them relatable. They could fall in love, lose their temper, and make mistakes (as well as use some of the more "badass" force powers) without having to creep over into the anti-hero camp. All this is also why the EU writers (the good, original EU) redesigned the Jedi Order after Luke recreated it to be more, for lack of a better term, human. Their struggles with drifting either too far towards stuffy dogmatism or ends-justify-the-means utilitarianism are actually a recurring theme in the books.

@DarkVaati13

Жыл бұрын

The problem with Gray Jedi as a term though is (aside from the baggage) it's applied to characters and groups who aren't Jedi or just have minor disagreements. The Imperial Knights and the Jensaarai are considered Gray Jedi, but they themselves don't want to be seen as Jedi. They believe in different things and they have different priorities. It's also like how people called Ahsoka a Gray Jedi even though she says "I am no Jedi" or Qui-Gon even though aside from his disagreements with the council is still a model Jedi in other aspects and is trusted and respected throughout the Order.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

Grey Jedi do not balance Light and Dark. They are just not nearly as stubborn when it comes to emotional policy.

@albeon_draken

Жыл бұрын

@@DarkVaati13 Grey Jedi isn't an Order or a group, it's more like any of a range of philosophies that fall somewhere between the Jedi and the Sith. It doesn't require being a current or former part of the Jedi Order. I agree that the people who like to post "Grey Jedi Codes" online like Eck showed are massively oversimplifying the length and breadth of different philosophies that are encompassed by the designation. That's where a lot of the confusion and issues come from. People try to look at the term "Grey Jedi" in the same way that they would the Sith or the Jedi. Some good analogies would be that the Jedi and Sith are like specific religions or political parties with specific beliefs, goals, and rules. Grey Jedi is like saying you're spiritual or an Independent. The beliefs in those cases can vary wildly from individual to individual and in order to fully understand where that person falls, you'll have to find out their specific philosophy. I think calling Qui Gon or Ahsoka a Grey Jedi is stretching the definition since the former was an active member of the Jedi Order and the latter still follows all the ideals and beliefs of the Jedi and only left because of disagreements with the Council. If you believe the entirety of the Bible, you're a Christian whether or not you're a member of any specific Church. People like Jolee Bindo and groups like the Baran Do Sages, the Jensaarai, or the Fallanassi definitely fall into that definition though. In a sense, Luke Skywalker's reformed Jedi Order would fit the definition too, though that would be getting into a philosophical question of whether one is defined as being on the Jedi end of the spectrum if they follow all the historical teachings of the Jedi Order or are just a member of the Order's current incarnation regardless of its beliefs. You can't separate the real world from the concept though. Have you noticed that the vast, overwhelming majority of people who would fall into the definition of "Grey Jedi" are characters from videogames or tabletop RPGs who are meant to be the "player character?" Like I said, a lot of the reason the Grey Jedi exist is specifically because the Jedi as they're normally written and portrayed are not relatable and do not represent the way a majority of people would think, act, or behave.

@albeon_draken

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 Some do, some don't. As I said, it's a spectrum. And "balance" is a poor word to use. That would imply that they tried to stay directly in the middle between Dark and Light, whereas people who would be considered Grey Jedi could be very close to one side or the other, or anywhere in between. Asajj Ventress, after being cut off by Dooku, would definitely qualify. She was still a bitch, still more than happy to use Dark Side powers, but also started becoming more altruistic as time went on and even sacrificed herself in the end.

@kylepessell1350

Жыл бұрын

There is a reason why the Jedi Order had rules. Their past is filled with examples of how they struggled before eventually creating their traditions which are the only reason they were able to survive as long as they did. It's firmly established in Star Wars canon that the Dark Side is a corruptive force which acts almost identically to an addictive performance-enhancing drug with dangerous side effects. Luke's Order had a truly ridiculous number of failed Jedi compared to the original Order because they relaxed those traditions and relied more heavily on the judgement of their individual members when realistically very few people could actually meet his standards. The traditions of the Jedi Order were ironically more understanding of the nature of the force than Luke's 'New' Order which is actually just a recreation of the more ancient Jedi Order before they had the real wisdom to make their organization work long-term. Over time, Luke's Order would HAVE to adopt traditions similar to what the original Jedi Order did just to keep its own existence going.

I think "Grey Jedi", though I dislike that term, could exist in a certain sense. But I think the bigger, underlying issue, is that some fans have very bad conceptions of what "balance" means. Some seem to think, "hmm, well OBVIOUSLY achieving balance in the Force is simple - the dark side and the light side just have to be equal! Equal dark side users, equal light side users! That means people who could use both dark side and light side must be in balance and must be the best!" Yeah, nah, that's not how it works. The Force is created by life. The "light side" means using the Force in harmony with life, helping all life to flourish. The "dark side" is just using the Force for selfish, destructive purposes. People using the dark side are like a cancer that steals resources for itself, killing the body in the process. The body is at its best when there's NO cancer at all. Any cancer is bad; any dark side is bad. I think the idea of Grey Jedi mainly just came about because the Jedi Order was overly restrictive in their attempts to prevent Force users from falling to the dark side. Grey Jedi that are therefore unaffiliated with the Jedi Order, and just express normal emotions and have families and stuff, are completely plausible. Grey Jedi who somehow are evil and good at the same time is a silly concept, and makes about as much sense as thinking being a jerk sometimes and being a decent person sometimes is somehow better than just...not being a jerk at all.

@soldierinsane2689

Жыл бұрын

I for one like the notion that gray Jedi ascribe to the ideal that the force cannot be categorized by good or bad. Maybe they’re more likely to support the cycles of the force , as death is a necessary part of life. And loss can lead to suffering.

@nibblitman

Жыл бұрын

I always figured it was just a good label for someone who didn’t want to be in any of the clubs

@veganrican606

Жыл бұрын

Rarely in life are people just evil, many times they feel like the good one or are good except for that one bad thing. Life is not so black and white, often it's grey.

@joeydestructo

Жыл бұрын

@@veganrican606 I get where you're coming from, but some people seem to think Gray Jedi are better than Sith or Jedi. It seems kind of Mary Sue-ish to say, "oh but my character is a Gray Jedi. He's good so he can use light side powers, but he's not restrained by the restrictive morals of the Jedi. He can also use his emotions to tap into the dark side, but he can control himself so he won't go bad." Just seems a little too perfect, you know, like they can have the best of both worlds and downsides of neither. And this is why I say I think the concept works depending on what you mean by Gray Jedi. A Mary Sue Force wielder who can do everything? Silly wish fulfillment. An unaffiliated Force user who perhaps struggles with their morality? That's pretty interesting.

@veganrican606

Жыл бұрын

@joeydestructo I get what your saying.

I think people feel strongly about it also because psychologically its not healthy to repress all negative emotion. Or pretend that you don't have negative emotions. Its better to be mindful of them. Accepting them and letting them go. Its also not a bad idea to make friends with and express the dark aspects of your personality safely than it is to hold it all in. Then there is light side Jedi who disagree with Jedi dogma. There is light side users that have arguably morally bad traits. Like Kidi Adi Mundi. And in legends you've got Darth Vectivus who was a dark side user with a truly grey morality and a personal code of self discipline and moderation. He was a wordly and mostly fair businessman that died peacefully surrounded by friends and family. And his employees liked him. He became a force user in adulthood. And perhaps that affects which side of the force you end up on.

@gibster9624

Жыл бұрын

Letting go of your emotions is not mindful. Being mindful of your emotions is having control on them. For instance you can be angry about something and still control your anger. You can channel your anger into something healthy such as working out or even something as subtle as reading a book or playing chess. Walking is a great way to relieve anxiety. But too much walking doesn't do much and a jedi finds a balance between when is the right amount of walking is necessary so to speak.

@marcinkarczmarz8281

Жыл бұрын

@@gibster9624 I think, based on prequels, that Jedi preach mindfulness. Obi-wan more than once told Anakin "Be mindful of your thoughts". I think he told him to control his emotions, not supress them. It is a nuanced discussion. Jedi teach to control emotions, but by forbiding attachments, they also supress them. Attachment might lead to fear of losing someone or rather the fear is natural, not letting it guide your actions is the key. However attachments can also be positive. Loving someone might lead to actions in spite of fear of death. For example, a Jedi can fight to protect village or a city without being attached to its people, because it is right thing to do, but if he has a family in this village he wants to protect he will fight with more resolution. Channeling emotion such as anger brings vitality and determination to the fight, but it must be controlled afterwards, in order not to decide while possesed by given emotion. That could be seeking revenge and killing innocents on the path to achieve, but also destroying your own life in a pursuit of meanigless goal of "restoring someone honor" or "bringing someone to justice" while justice is based on a subjective grief and there are other beneficial actions that could be done to help others

@gibster9624

Жыл бұрын

@@marcinkarczmarz8281 Anakin is probably not the example you think. He was never mindful of his feelings and he never even attempted to at least suppress them because he went and got married and had attachments.

@Desma-wf4xo

Жыл бұрын

​@@gibster9624 I don't think they meant Anakin as an example, more like what Obi-Wan was trying to teach him how to be mindful.

Stance 7 (Mace Windu’s stance) literally is about tapping into your “dark” emotions, and allowing yourself to low-key enjoy the fight, enjoy the thrill. See the flow of the flight and dance through it. It’s considered controversial in the order because it sometimes leads people to the dark side. I can imagine a Jedi in a moment of desperation, using force lightning to like turn off a machine or something but refuse to hit the enemy.

@gonzalosanchez8162

Жыл бұрын

That's a Legends thing, thought up by someone who watched Mace do a mean face to Sidious and is fundamentally misinterpreting The Force. If he were tapping into the dark side, then he'd become a dark jedi in no time. Edit: it's not "sometimes they fall". They WILL fall if they tap into the dark side. It's a chain of events that can only lead there. If it were so easy to tap and leave, then Luke could've just kill the Emperor and THEN reject the dark side.

@kaizernet8118

Жыл бұрын

@@gonzalosanchez8162 I mean they did say vaapad was a true form it’s just a variation of the form but it’s not what u are thinking juyo is the form where u use emotions vaapad is using someone’s emotions against them

@gonzalosanchez8162

Жыл бұрын

@kaizernet8118 bro, I'm sorry but I'm having so much trouble understanding what you just said... care to rephrase that?🙏 I'm not a native speaker so I can get lost without punctuation

@kaizernet8118

Жыл бұрын

@@gonzalosanchez8162 I got your back so form 7 is known as juyo/Vaapad the aggression form those 2 names are both variations of the form juyo is using your emotion to help you fight vaapad is the one that turns someone’s emotions against them in a fight mace windu created Vaapad he’s only tapping into the dark side by tapping into their dark side not his own

@kaizernet8118

Жыл бұрын

@@gonzalosanchez8162 think of it as an emotional fighter vs a psychological bully

You had a video a while back talking about the Bendu that was really good. Rather than think of the Jedi and the Sith as the embodiment of the Light and Dark sides of the force, they are polar philosophies. The Bendu said he never took sides, that he was the one in the middle, but he wasn't saying that he was a "Gray" Jedi. He was stating that he did not take sides in the philosophical battles between Jedi and Sith. The Jedi say they are on the side of the Light, but they often are guilty of as the Sith of giving into fear, trying to control and shape the Galaxy.

@swizzamane8775

Жыл бұрын

BENDU! Yes!! Best Force-User. Period.

@jacktheflash8478

Жыл бұрын

Is it really that often?

@insanityang

Жыл бұрын

The Jedi order of the Republic Era was the definition of fear and control. It was afraid that young force users could become dark side users, so they pulled children from their parents and isolated them in the Jedi philosophy. The Jedi got involved in Republic politics. In the EU canon, Jedi were very intolerant of other Force philosophies. Qui-Gon Jinn was often at odds with the Jedi Council because he followed "the will of the Force", rather than what was decided by the Council.

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

@@insanityang Its pretty much Qui-gon's entire arc that he is a lighter jedi than the rest of the Jedi Order, when he wasn't able to train Anakin, the Order was turned inside out by Palpatine.

@gibster9624

Жыл бұрын

Bendu was pointing out how dogmatic the Jedi Order had become. George Lucas described the force as a neutral agent on its own. The dark side was about manipulating the force for personal gain. Once war and violence became a Jedi's main position they were more capable of losing their way which is why Sidious created the war in the first place. Hard to be a "peacekeeper" when you're on the front lines.

I tend to agree with your second point: Gray Jedi are simply light side force users who don’t follow the Jedi Council or Republic. I’ve always felt that Kirak Infil'a and Rahm Kota were good examples of who a Gray Jedi is. Someone who doesn’t follow a set of codes or a hardline interpretation of the force, but also someone who understands the difference between right and wrong, and good and evil.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

That information is supported in-lore, and in sourcebooks. Grey Jedi are simply light-siders who do not listen to whatever the Council tells them.

@ltb1345

Жыл бұрын

True.

@afterforever21

Жыл бұрын

This is pretty much where I lay. It's about what you do with what you have learned. So in that vein a it can be a dark force user who isn't actively menacing the galaxy for personal gain. When you are free from the rigidity of both ideologies that's a Grey imo. You don't drown yourself in your emotions and ambitions. Nor are you swearing off a part of yourself in fear of yourself.

People seem to forget “Force Justice” is just Jedi flavored Force Lightning…

Actually the whole concept of a Grey Jedi goes back to the late 90s if not earlier. This can be found in several RPG books that delt with different types of Force users. Grey Jedi and Teepo Paladins are probably the two most common examples of the non-typical Jedi/Sith Force Users.

@gibster9624

Жыл бұрын

Pretty sure what you're referencing was never apart of canon tho. Not fully certain on that tho.

With George Lucas’ vision of Star Wars, I can’t see Grey Jedi being a sustainable thing that doesn’t lead to the dark side

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

Thankful his vision is bad compaired to the legends timeline

@CrisjoseCruz

Жыл бұрын

@@anteprs7908 Thankfully legends is now just fan ficiton

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

@@CrisjoseCruz sadly not thankful kotor a d old republic alone beat lucas work by miles

@smokingpiggy5425

Жыл бұрын

​@@anteprs7908 still fan fiction tho

@sergioruiz733

Жыл бұрын

@@CrisjoseCruz Technically anything made that wasn't made by the creator is fan fiction so essentially only the 6 films and CWs aren't fan fiction

In canon "grey Jedi" are simply force users that arent in the Jedi order and don't follow the Jedi code. They dont use the dark side though, any more than Jedi do. Examples from canon would be the old EU witches of Dathomir, the Voss Mystics from SWTOR, and similar force using orders that don't use dark side abilities. In the cases of groups that DID try to use both light and dark powers in balance, such as the Jensarai, they always seem o turn out to be some scam started by a dark Jedi or sith to dupe gullible force users into thinking that it is possible. Those are not really grey, they are dark Jedi deluded into thinking they are grey.

@davidlewis5312

Жыл бұрын

I would add the Imperial Knights of Legacy time period to that.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

@@davidlewis5312 They would probably count as grey Jedi, yes.

@marc-ericleblanc-seguin4514

Жыл бұрын

The Jensarai started out as Dark Jedi thinking they were grey but ended up as actually grey light side users.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

@@marc-ericleblanc-seguin4514 Ive never read the books they appeared in, but I presume they stopped using the "attack spell" force powers when they realized they had been duped.

@PeteTemplar101

Жыл бұрын

I'd also be tempted to add the Knights of Zakuul to that list as well. They use the Force selflessly in service to an ideal, to serve their Emperor...that Emperor just turned out to be the ultimate Dark Sider of that era...

An interesting idea that seems to float around in the bane novels and is sort of implied by a lot of old republic material in general is that the force works as a personality multiplier. Its more noticeable in sith where general selfishness works its way up torture and senseless violence for violence sake, but seems to effect jedi as well as tranquility gives way to standing by while planets burn (like when the council sat out the mandalorian wars or when luke decided he couldn't be the one to fight caedus)

@guccifer764

Жыл бұрын

It’s always a lose-lose whenever it comes to Jedis and wars it seems. They sit out the Mandalorian Wars and get called cowards. They join the Clone Wars, and suddenly they’ve lost their way. They go to war with the Sith, and they _fucking commit genocide._

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

@@guccifer764 Well, one thing, the Jedi didn't actively avoid the Mandalorian Wars, they simply wanted to think more on it. I don't think you can really say fighting them was the right move, because it brought about Revan and Malak's fall and started another full scale war, and a cold war that killed near enough every living jedi.

@Sabamonster

Жыл бұрын

@@alexisborden3191 You could argue though - that had they intervened earlier, in force, it wouldn't have come to that.

@alexisborden3191

Жыл бұрын

@@Sabamonster Revan forced the issue though, that wasn't an option because Revan was already out there fighting. Plus, it was a ploy anyways, Revan was all hopped up on war, so when they went and investigated as to why the sith told the mandalorians to fight them, they and Malak both fell to the dark side. Sure, maybe the Jedi higher ups may have been able to sus out the sith influence without falling, but they certainly wouldn't have avoided that fate if they went to war like Revan did.

@drachna

Жыл бұрын

​@@Sabamonster Those Jedi understood what the Jedi of the prequels failed to, that in fighting you've already lost, and that the force shouldn't be used as a weapon. That was the lesson Luke had to learn in the originals, and it's also why the Rusaan Reformations worked for as long as they did. Jedi who didn't lead armies and had oversight preventing another schism from occuring were at a relatively low risk of falling to the dark side. As soon as they became generals they started falling and dying in their thousands.

Gray Jedi could be an interesting concept if you had the gray Jedi have maybe an aptitude for resisting the dark sides influence but still struggle the more they use it, so like they’re more light than dark but are more than willing to use the dark when they need to access that raw power and don’t care what the consequences of it might be. Could be a super interesting story about someone who thinks he has it figured out but in reality is struggling between light and dark.

I think the problem with any kind of Grey Jedi is that the dark side is inherently corrupting; trying to balance that with the light, its polar opposite, must be like trying to tight rope walk between two skyscrapers in a Cat 5 hurricane. Most Grey Jedi, in my opinion, are either Jedi who ignore the Council, so light siders without the branding, or are dark siders who are deluding themselves. While balance is certainly possible, even the old Je'dai ultimately schismed along dark and light so I doubt any real order built upon it could last long.

@adriandiaz-cabrera1733

Жыл бұрын

The Je'dai lasted plenty long. Plus, they were mostly stable until the Rakatans tried to invade. Before that, they were stable with both.

@VestedUTuber

Жыл бұрын

Thing is, the Dark Side's corruption has been shown to be resistible. People who claim it isn't are clinging to a line from Yoda in ESB - "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." - without considering any of the pre- or post-established context, and ignoring the fact that their interpretation of that line, that the dark side's corruption is absolute and unbreakable, _is disproven in RotJ_ and further disproven many times over in Legends and even some canon sources.

@johnduquette7023

Жыл бұрын

@@VestedUTuber I think what's being missed here is whether the corruption stems from the Dark Side itself, or from the adept's corrupt relationship with the Dark Side. "Power" is a delusion pursued by the Sith and similarly shallow Jedi, so their relationship to the Dark Side is one of selfish control. If one accepts that the Dark is a subordinate subordinate to the Will of the Force, they may well have a completely different relationship. Yoda's statement may well be correct for Luke's circumstance, as Luke was not in a position in the story to have a sophisticated relationship to the Light and the Dark, and his pursuit of knowledge of the Dark could only have been the corrupting pursuit of power.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

@@VestedUTuber It's not disproven in ROTJ at all. What Yoda says is not that you cant ever break free of the dark side, he says once you start down the dark path, it will forever dominate your destiny. It dominates Vaders destiny for the rest of his life and he is only able to break free of it by literally sacrificing his life to save his son. Thats a great example of what it takes to pull free of the dark side, it won't let you just walk out on it, it will make you PAY.

@VestedUTuber

Жыл бұрын

@@lesigh1749 I guess I should have worded it a bit better. The line does still hold true under that interpretation. Even other characters who either dabble in the dark side without committing or were once dark but since turned away from it, or are even fully dark but don't give into its more corrupting temptations (like the Nightsisters) still pay that cost in some way. However, that's not the interpretation people who use that line as an argument against any sort of Dark Side use that isn't wholly corruptive go with. I've seen people use it as their sole backing argument to claim that even turning away from the Dark Side is impossible. Ironically, that's the very interpretation that ended up screwing over the old Jedi Order in the first place.

In the comic book, the Stark Hyperspace war, one of the masters refers to Qui Gonn as a gray Jedi, which in that use makes sense as he is fully a servant of the light, he just didn't always follow the strictures of the Jedi council, but never did he contemplate integrating the darkside.

@sike2399

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Another word they like to use to describe Qui-Gon is 'maverick'. That's pretty much what I envision whenever I see the term Grey Jedi.

@BertoxolusThePuzzled

Жыл бұрын

I disagree. What is his brilliant Force Ghost ability if not a Light Side upgrade to the weaker more restrictive Dark Side Spirit technique where your spirit possesses a place or object after you die? In fact I had even thought it was lightly implied at some point that he had taken a trip to Korriban specifically shortly before his death and thinking about it he DID seem to recognize Darth Maul as a Sith AWWWWWFULLY fast for a Jedi living in an era where the last LIVING Sith hadn't been seen in literal centuries (I assume however that Sith SPIRITS don't count in that equation, maybe he had gotten some "spirit training" from a Sith and recognized a technique or something).

@pwnorbepwned

Жыл бұрын

So he’s of the light side, not grey at all, and isn’t like other Jedi. Why is Grey Jedi the term for this? 😅

@vulcandor2573

Жыл бұрын

@@BertoxolusThePuzzled because he adhered to the living force not the cosmic force like most Jedi

@tweso1499

Жыл бұрын

@@pwnorbepwned the term “Gray Jedi” (as referenced by both _the Jedi Path_ and a set of robes from KOTOR II) typically refers to a Jedi that while a loyal member of the Jedi Order they butt heads with the Jedi Council (or wouldn’t abide by the will of the Council, rather the Will of the Force).

In Empire Strikes Back Luke asks Yoda if the Dark Side was more powerful to which Yoda responds "Not stronger...easier, more seductive" which to me suggests that "surrendering to the Dark Side" really just means tapping into The Force without learning how to restrain yourself. To me that sounds more like there's only one unifying Force which like any energy (and nature) is neutral. What makes it good or evil...light or dark...is what you do with it. Plus, let's not forget the Bendu who no doubt had students/acolytes of his neutral view of The Force.

I took one of those tests to see if I was sith or Jedi and I found out that I was actually a gray Jedi. At that time I had no idea what it was but after doing some searching I found out that they are pretty cool

Personally, I'm a fan of a version of Darth Marr's "Force as paradox" concept. The force embodies both the dark and light as a unified spectrum; but it's an undeniable fact that the dark and light sides are distinct, opposing ends of this spectrum, similar to magnetic poles. Grey Jedi would just exist somewhere along this continuum in spots that don't neatly fit into light or dark (though most if all would probably be light leaning since the darker end tends to draw people toward the extreme more). As for intention vs action... yeah I agree intention is pretty definitely not the defining aspect. If you find yourself killing younglings, it doesn't really matter how you justify it. The act of murdering innocents would be the defining feature.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

Pro-tip. When weighing the merits of any philosophy regarding the force, its probably a good idea to avoid the theories of anyone called "Darth". They may have ulterior motives!

@ellugerdelacruz2555

Жыл бұрын

If killing younglings is bad no matter the occasion or justification, then ultimately there is always a binary when it comes to the Force. To quote Dante, the darkest pit of Hell is reseved for those who remain neutral in times of moral crisis.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

That's a concept, but it is not true in lore, or out-of-universe. *Lucas' Thoughts* "What happens when you go to the Darkside it [the Force] goes out of balance." ~ George Lucas [from the Lucas Video on the Force]. *Luke's Thoughts* "For a Jedi there is no place for a rainbow Force," Luke said quietly. "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben." ~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (Page 187 Fate of the Jedi, Book II: Omen) *Sourcebooks* "The so-called Grey Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council." ~ The Jedi Path: A Manual For Students of The Force

@themacewens

Жыл бұрын

@@lesigh1749 Darth Marr is literally the closest thing we have to a light side sith, he even became a jedi-style force ghost (can manifest anywhere and not be bound to only haunt locations or objects)

@VRBroadcasting

Жыл бұрын

Some people will outright disagree with this theory(and understandably so), however given what I and many others have witnessed in-universe(and in Legends), I don’t see how it doesn’t fit within the Star Wars universe. Take Revan for example; He was a light-sider who fell to the dark, but came back to the light and from then on walked the path in-between. Using both light and dark abilities while never falling to the dark. Now look at Qui-Gon Jin; He routinely went against the Jedi council’s wishes and followed the will of the force. And because he followed the force’s will, he would routinely be at odds with the Jedi Code. Earning him the title of ‘Grey Jedi’ from some Jedi within the order, and according to legends, Luke even referred to him as such. The force isn’t limited to the laws of the Jedi nor the Ideals of the Sith. Yes, the force may be polarized, and the possibility of being corrupted by the dark-side is still a threat and CAN happen, but the possibility to come back from it is possible. The balance requires not only the wisdom to do what’s right, but the willpower to resist the Dark-side’s pull in order to utilize It’s power without being corrupted, and remain pure at heart.

I think Canon has been working very closely in making Grey Jedi more viable. Look at Ahsoka Tano for instance. She operates outside of the Order, and does not consider herself to be a proper Jedi - but she uses her sabers and the force for good.

@marty.m2933

Жыл бұрын

Although Ahsoka is not part of the order, she has otherwise become essentially exactly what a jedi should be. Compassionate, capable, selfless, wise and only uses the light side. Perhaps the only fault we could have with her in this regard is her attachment to her former master and yet she has not allowed her emotions to endanger anyone but herself. She left not because she disagreed with the Jedi concept of the force, but because she was betrayed by the order specifically. I really don't see anything grey on her.

@Jenjak

Жыл бұрын

Ashoka leaves the order because jedi are losing their way. They act out of fear. She is a real Jedi. It's not about not killing or using pacific powers. It's about acting for peace and virtue. So a Jedi tries their best not to kill, but sometimes it happens, that doesn't mean they are happy with it. They should see killing as a failure and a darksidey thing to do.

@Teddybomber87

Жыл бұрын

doesn't make her a grey jedi. She is still using her Jedi Skills and she doesn't use the dark side.

@AbsurdFalcon

Жыл бұрын

@@JenjakWhy does everyone repeat this narrative? She didn’t leave because the Order lost its way. She was excommunicated for a crime that she was framed for, had her innocence proven at the final moment, and refused the offer to return because she felt betrayed. Her leaving the Order was because of her disappointment that no one had her back. You can’t even blame the council for not having her back in the situation since they were between a rock and a hard place due to pressure from the senate; plus there was a mountain of evidence against Ashoka at the time.

@jacktheflash8478

Жыл бұрын

@@Jenjak why should they see it like that?

On the point of Yoda saying once you start using the dark side, you can't stop, we know for a fact, canonically, this is not the case at all. Take for example, Cere Junda's story in Jedi: Fallen Order. Or Ezra Bridger's story, even going as far as to open up a Sith holocron. And most recently, Cal Kestis, who has taken some steps into the dark side, and while we don't know yet what his fate will be with it, the way these things almost always go, is he will beat it.

I always read the "Grey Jedi" as light-siders who don't follow the Jedi Council or Jedi Order like you said Qui-Gon Jinn or Ahsoka, much like how Dark Jedi are dark-siders who aren't Sith or Jedi. I think alot of the debate about the light and dark side is because of a poor (meta) understanding of the force. Jedi aren't supposed to be emotionless monks, but the dogma of the clone wars council was far too restricted out of fear of Jedi being tempted by the dark side. The Jedi Order is based on eastern religions, one of the more famous aspects of said religions is self-improvement and mindfulness. Jedi aren't supposed to suppress emotions or base desire but to overcome them and control them in a healthy way; by the time of the Clone Wars the Jedi, again out of fear, took the extreme path and it ended in their downfall. Sith on the other hand and contrary to some do not "harness" their emotions, but give in to their emotions and base desires.

@skeleguna.k.adefinitelynot4656

Жыл бұрын

Same here

@swizzamane8775

Жыл бұрын

not disagreeing with you... just a minor correction... Dark Jedi ARE Jedi, who fell to the Dark Side.. lol (Mace teeters inbetween, using Violence to achieve Justice [executing the Emperor anyone?].. also, also, as such... according to Lucas.. the ONLY "Balance-Users" are Purple, not Grey. And Mace is the ONLY one (Ahsoka has special acception, thus her Pure white sabers, Claimed from a Fallen Jedi)... j/s) But, you are correct, Sith are wholly separate from "Jedai" as a whole {namely they are a Race, not a "peep-hole" (sorry, new rockstars Thor joke xD). Since they were basically wiped out by the Dark Jedi whom took over their planet to use as THEIR form of a "more advanced jedi academy, without restrictions", and adopting the Sith ideology of Claiming leadership by Force} bring on the "nerd" jokes, lol

I just recalled one of the more amusing aspects of the old Star Wars Saga Edition RPG relating to the Gray Jedi idea where you could take a specific talent to remove the 'dark side' tag from evil powers and use them without going evil. Doing this with Force Lightning was nuts.

@guccifer764

Жыл бұрын

“I’m totally a good guy” I say, charing the skin of my enemy with lightning and rending flesh from bone. “No moral dilemma here”, I say, choking the life out of a man in front of his wife and child.

@jaredthehawk3870

Жыл бұрын

I'm in a game with a person in the party that does such things. Used rage instead of lightning though... then you have me who just goes pew pew with his sniper rifle...

@camerongunn7906

Жыл бұрын

​@@guccifer764 Yes of course because plowing through someone with a bolt of plasma in the shape of a sword is much nicer. Jedi: Violence is okay when we do it.

@idunusegoogleplus

Жыл бұрын

​@@guccifer764 very poor examples you used. You can force choke soldiers and not force choke a civilian husband and father in front of his wife and children obviously. Also, is slicing a clone up with a lightsaber any worse than killing them with force lightning if it means you can handle up to dozens of clones at once in 360 degrees instead of just getting overwhelmed using light saber deflection like many jedis did and died? Killing in three seconds and dying in 10 makes no real difference in morality if the latter is justified due to self preservation purposes and yes jedi are better off not dying from blasters if it means using a bit of force lightning. If you cannot control your emotions and think turning them off completely is the only solution then you're immature and not wise.

@guccifer764

Жыл бұрын

@@idunusegoogleplus One of them is unnecessarily cruel. You need to have active hatred and a want for suffering for force lightning to mean anything. That’s why Plo Koon’s lightning was essentially a glorified taser. Chocking is also an entirely unnecessary method to kill people. It’s, by it’s very nature, meant to make the death slow and painful. A well placed a lightsaber strike will kill in an instant, and immediately cauterizes wounds. You wouldn’t need to shoot lightning unless your primary concern is killing people, and you wouldn’t be chocking them unless you wanted them to suffer.

There are a lot of types of force users. Dark Jedi, Sith, Grey, all the various other factions like Nightsisters, Dai Bendu, Blackguard, Guardians, Rangers, Knights of Zakuul, etc. Even the Jedi changed from serving the individual's destiny with the force to serving the republic, over time. People just like to use Grey Jedi to describe a good guy who isn't narratively limited by the inhuman dogma of the Empire era Jedi. And there's lots of those. Especially if you go pre-Hyperspace War to the Jedaii of Tython, which many don't. The main character of the books was growing her own brainless clone to use as spare parts, and knew it bordered on what we'd call the dark side, but still practiced it as part of her own force balance. It's a mess.

Not at all related to the main subject of the video: Damn, I love that outro!

Often in Star Wars games, such as KOTOR powers are specifically labeled "dark" and "light" and when weilded, your character's personality (and physical appearance for that matter) also bends further towards the dark or light spectrum. That pretty much answers the question "Are some powers inherently evil", yes?

@epicdude3659

Жыл бұрын

Yes, except that in KOTOR, you can achieve max light side alignment while still spamming Force Lightning or Death Field in every fight.

@trutyatces8699

Жыл бұрын

@@epicdude3659 yep. The light-side and dark-side for the Sith in that game are Pragmatist and Murder-Hobo.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

Right, the canon seems to be to actually manifest those "attack spell" powers you are channeling really negative feelings like hate and anger, so its inherently dark no matter what you use it for.

@lazydroidproductions1087

Жыл бұрын

@@epicdude3659 yeah but that’s more a quirk of game as opposed to intention. A little ludo-narrative dissonance never hurt anyone though

I think "Grey Jedi" exist, but never in an official capacity of any kind. They're the kind of people who treat the "Dark Side" like a lightsaber: avoid using it whenever possible, but tap it when needed, then put it away. A good way of putting it is probably that while "Grey Jedi" may be canon, the term is entirely fanon, and is mostly used for lack of a better term.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

Grey Jedi do not use the Dark Side. Those would be Dark Jedi. Sourcebooks confirm this.

@kylepessell1350

Жыл бұрын

If you use the Dark Side, then ultimately you are falling down a slippery slope. It's addictive and dangerous to the point where even the most strong-willed of people can be twisted by it after only a single use. The urge to use it gets more powerful each time. It's simply impossible to use it in moderation regularly as it will steadily corrupt you. The best metaphor I can use is describing how a pool of white paint gets drops of black paint added to it. You can never remove the black paint and you will simply grow darker and darker as you add more. Grey Jedi are in the process of falling and can never truly recover once they indulge.

@trajancaesar2662

Жыл бұрын

I agree with this idea, as I think it fits with how Revan saw the force.

@TeenWithACarrotIDK

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 “A definition for "true Gray Jedi" that appeared in the Jedi Academy Training Manual further described them as those who did not belong to any Force-based organization and who explored both the light and the dark sides of the Force without becoming corrupted by the dark side.” From the sounds of it, they do use dark side abilities. Dark side abilities aren’t just abilities that are “mean”, they are abilities that bend the will of the force for their own wants and desires. Grey Jedi would be considered a sub-class of the sith, as they’re morally better, and they have better intensions, but they still are using force abilities that bend the will of the force. They can exist, but it’s kinda like someone smoking for small periods of time once a couple years to let off stress on a particularly bad day. Most people would either quit on the spot or smoke for most of, if not the rest of their life. It’s just highly unlikely and doesn’t really fit the way the lore is set up and how it’s stayed for a long time.

@arthurbrandonnielsen

Жыл бұрын

An additional complication to the whole "Grey Jedi" debate is also the question of how one classifies "The Dark Side"? Is it a list of powers? Is it the intent of the user? If the Dark Side is part of the Force, wouldn't its use be part of the Will of the Force? Is it truly something malicious, or just raw power?

I remember references to the grey Jedi as those that had broken away from the council and had families and other things that broke doctrine. They didn't seek the dark side but they also didn't avoid emotional attachments which meant that the council wouldn't recognize them. It's been a long time since I read any legacy material so I'd have to dig for references unless anyone can help me out. I think Asoka would be a good example of this even if she doesn't want to be called a Jedi, and I remember references to it in the order 66 book but those were just in passing as it wasn't the focus of the storyline.

The truest Grey Jedi would be the Je'Daii of Tython from which both the Jedi and Sith Lords originated. They practiced a balancing of the force, use both light and dark force powers for millennia, and if someone leaned to far to one side the went into isolation to meditate until they came back into balance, which kind of goes against the Jedi belief that you cannot come back from the dark side.

Grey Jedi just means Jedi who don't listen to the council. Fanon grey Jedi are dark siders either in denial or fast approaching full fall. The best way to understand the dark side and why you can't be grey is to think of the dark side like how galadriel and gandalf describe the one rings influence in that no matter how strong your will or good your intentions you will be corrupted and turned evil.

The main thing i have come to is that if the grey jedi exists they would do one of two things: make the jedi and sith obsolete thereby destroying the axiom of light vs dark of the setting or the jedi would adopt a more grey way of doing things and they would either destroy themselves or become sith. The problem is also that the fandom wants to have their cake and eat it they don't want to make a decision so they create a third decision that doesn't exist.

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

The grey jedi aka jedaai exist in the before and it member left and in time make the sith and jedi

@ChaoticNeutralMatt

Жыл бұрын

You're assuming that the Jedi and Sith would fade, which seems unlikely. A middle is which there are both bad folk who aren't sith, as well as those who aren't Jedi, but follow that code, and a third middle in which those follow a more middle ground. There has been literature on it, and this isn't really a question of canonicity.

@Kimi42336

Жыл бұрын

@@ChaoticNeutralMatt The Jedi and Sith would fade why would anybody be a Jedi or Sith if there was a third option that is more appealing. When faced with multiple options people will always choose the more appealing rather than the logical. As for not being canonical, people create the grey jedi because they are unhappy with the canon. The people don't like the canon so they create their own.

@corksucker

Жыл бұрын

@@Kimi42336 if the sith are people who completely give into their emotions to give them strength why would restraining their emotions, even a little, be remotely appealing?

@thebob5240

Жыл бұрын

@Wolfgang Verde The same reason why there are multiple forms of Martial Arts, there are some that are flat-out better than others and some are bad but yet people think or believe theirs is the most effective. You could have three force users in a room on the three spectrums and I guarantee they all would think their method is the best and only method.

I prefer the Qui-Gon / Jolee Bindo definition of "Gray Jedi", and I think characters like that are what the term is actually meant to refer to. As for "the gray" in itself, I think it's a thing (I mean, there's a neutral middle ground to just about everything), but not as much of a tangible, attainable facet of the Force as Light and Dark. I like how Legends (usually) showcases that Force organizations who try desperately to be "gray" inevitably tip the pendulum to one side or the other, sooner or later. Biggest examples being the Je'daii and the Eternal Empire, which eventually went full Light and full Dark, respectively. That's consistent with the themes of the movies IMO.

@justinhigginbottom8668

Жыл бұрын

Qui gon isn't grey 💀 hes a light side force user through and through. His only "fault" is ignoring the politics of the order

@justinhigginbottom8668

Жыл бұрын

@Draiven they do not call him grey. His entire character is that he goes against the politics of the republic. He follows the jedi code and the light side to a fault. More than any republic Era jedi

As someone who likes the concept of grey Jedi, it has little to do with “being a good guy but still wanting to use force lightning” that framing is clearly trying to make people sound childish. I see it more like a Jedi who disagrees with the rhetoric of the order like cutting yourself off from passion.

Well said as always Eck! It’s certainly a fascinating concept, the amount of discussion and breadth of ideas within the Star Wars universe and fan community never ceases to amaze me. But I think your conclusion strikes closest to the truth.

Really the best a true grey Jedi can hope to be is embody the phrase, "die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" Burning out as fast as possible and save as many as you can, then surrender yourself to the force.

I keep coming back to, "If you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." It's possible to read this as Yoda waxing poetic, but the on-screen evidence suggests otherwise. Whenever we see someone fall to the Dark Side, or even dangle at the edge, it feels like the temptation has a sort of supernatural potency. Every time we see someone tapping into it, we also see that it's a struggle for them to stop. It's not just "I got angry," but rather, "I got angry and immediately got a hit of a very powerful drug." The Jedi Code, and their teachings as expressed in the films/shows, seem to be strongly focused on the inherent danger of intense emotional attachments. This is ultimately what leads to their calcification and downfall, but why are they so damn scared of attachments? I mean sure, love and fear of loss might lead one to perform immoral actions (nods to The Last of Us). But the strict nature of the rule, the fact that it's not enough to just counsel/indoctrinate them with, "If you are a Jedi, right and wrong come first." That suggests it's so dangerous they can't even touch the subject. Strong emotions of wany kind are radioactive as far as the Jedi are concerned. To extend the earlier analogy, it sounds a bit like the way a 12-step program counsels an addict*. There is never just one drink, one hit. You can't just rely on your willpower. Consume you it will. Of course, we could argue that the Grey Jedi represent those who are somehow above this temptation, beings of superior will. But this reduces the threat of the Dark Side - and the heroes of the saga - to such an extent that it's hard to accept as part of canon. It's a bit like the part of LOTR where Tom Bombadil is utterly immune to the One Ring... except, imagine there was a small legion of Tom Bombadils, who keep showing up throughout the story. "Oh, this old thing again? What's the big deal?" It doesn't play nicely with the rest of the narrative. * Note: no offense is intended to those who have benefited from 12-step programs, and I'm not saying the Dark Side is a direct 1:1 depiction of alcohol or other addiction.

@Kjf365

Жыл бұрын

Well see, the thing is that Yoda was wrong. He was proven wrong by Luke in the end. Vader turned to the Dark Side, but it didn't decide his fate in the end. And furthermore, Luke's passion while nearly leading to his fall, was also the reason the galaxy was saved. If he had followed the code of no attachments and believing those who use the dark side are irredeemable, he would have just cut down Vader there in the throne room. The same thing the Emperor wanted him to do. In that moment where Luke was looking at a disarmed Vader, that was when he realized just how similar the Jedi and Sith actually were and so he found his own path by showing unconditional compassion and staying his hand. And because of that, Palpatine was placed in the one position where he could lose attacking Luke so Vader could end him once and for all.

One of the things that doesn't get brought up enough, imo, is that being a light side user is not the same as being Jedi. The Jedi are an order, and one that is often misguided, but the light side of the force is fundamentally representative of balance and goodness, while the dark side is representative of extreme passion, selfishness, and a lack of balance/equilibrium. "Bringing balance to the force" essentially means destroying or at least greatly diminishing the presence of the dark side of the force in the galaxy. The idea that a "gray jedi", or whatever people want to call them, can somehow use some in-between version of the force or even use the light and dark side at the same time fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the force. A gray jedi as a light-sider who is removed from the Jedi order (Ahsoka and Qui-Gon are sorta good examples) is more possible, but at that point they're either just a Jedi with different beliefs (Qui-Gon) or not a Jedi at all (Ahsoka).

I will never understand why this is an issue with people. The ONLY issue is that "Grey Jedi" is probably an imprecise term. They could just as easily be called "Gray Sith". Jedi/Sith have codes and such, and so there are PROBABLY no "Gray Jedi", as if someone was dissuaded by the Jedi Order (probably ITS CODE), they wouldn't hold to said CODE. On the other hand, we KNOW there were Force USERS, both individuals (like the Bendu) and organizations (like the Witches of Darthomir). The point being, the Force is extant all over the Galaxy of Star Wars (if not the universe itself). Various bits of lore suggest that it manifests in various ways, such as really good pilots being Force Attuned/Sensitive, kind of low-key tapping a piece of that otherwise untapped power. I think the TERM "Gray Jedi" is probably wrong. But gray/neutral Force Users? Those very likely exist. Some may even use Lightsabers. After being around for over 25,000 years, it's not exactly impossible that a group couldn't collect fallen Jedi Lightsabers or have learned to make their own.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

A "grey sith" would be a dark jedi. A dark side user that doesn't follow the Sith code. just as a "grey jedi" is any force user that doesn't follow the jedi code or isn't part of the order, but doesn't use the dark side either. In the canon of the setting, as Lucas wrote it, the dark side always hooks you and reals you in, no matter how you try to use it. it turns you bad in the end even if you delude yourself otherwise.

@abnercliff9624

Жыл бұрын

The nightsisters use the dark side and are unbalanced. Bendu claims to be neutral but is also a flawed character who is deluding himself. The dark side always corrupts, you can't have it both ways

@VestedUTuber

Жыл бұрын

The reason why they're called "Gray Jedi" is also the same reason why general darksiders not aligned with any particular order are called "Dark Jedi" regardless of whether they were Jedi at some point or not. Watsonianly, the terms were coined by the Jedi, due to them being the most dominant Force order in the galaxy by a significant margin. In essence, whether they realize it or not, the Jedi Order is effectively monopolizing the Force and claiming all Force users as their own, and thus their own problem to deal with.

@klaykid117

Жыл бұрын

A Gray sith would be someone who is serving the sith order without actually using the dark side obviously the first thing that comes to mind is the Old Republic MMO lightside sith who don't use any dark side. This might also apply to any imperial who did their job without actually doing anything evil.

@VestedUTuber

Жыл бұрын

@@klaykid117 Those have already been given a name - they're called Light Sith. However, something to note is that, in a similar way to how a Jedi can fall from continued use of the Dark Side, a Light Sith can "fall" to the light as the Light Side is ultimately incompatible with the Sith code. Just as the Dark Side requires strong emotion to touch, the Light Side requires inner peace. But just as the Jedi teach that there is no emotion, only peace, the Sith teach that peace is a lie, there is only passion. Honestly, though, if you really think about it, both codes are thought traps.

I feel like a grey Jedi could be one that leaves the Jedi order, still uses their powers and saber for good, but don’t follow the strict dogma of the council and Jedi order. Like taking a partner or not having bouts of anger or being wholly altruistic

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

Correct, though they don't have to leave the order. Qui-Gon was a Grey Jedi.

@fnsmike

Жыл бұрын

Meanwhile all these other traditions that blend the light and dark or walk a third path aren't any kind of Jedi at all. There are many more Force-users in the SW universe than just the Jedi and the Sith.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

@fnsmike You cannot balance Light/Dark. That is imbalance. You would eventually become Sith, or Dark Jedi.

I believe the Qui-Gon and Ahsoka breed of Grey Jedi is much more interesting, narratively and from a character perspective. There's not much compelling or turbulent about a "Grey Jedi" who taps into the Dark Side without consequence. Though I'll always look on those kinds of characters fondly because of games like JK and KOTOR. Characters like Qui-Gon still work in the Light. They just don't adhere to the Jedi Code or ruleset as strongly. Basically what Luke did in ESB onwards when his instincts told him to go save his friends. Love & family, two things strictly forbidden by the code, ultimately saved both Luke and his father. Being "equally" Light & Dark is a concept best left for videogames, where it works best!

I just noticed at 4:09, you can see the ground sink down when Mark Hamill steps on it. I imagine this is because there's a hollow section underneath the movie set where the puppeteer is.

I think it does come down ultimately to how you view the Force. Is it this very binary thing of light and dark or is it more fluid? In Legends Jacen mentions the adepts of the White Current and view the Force as a stream, with rhe Light being letting it flow through you uninterrupted and the Dark Side being directing the current yourself. It’s a big case of intent and the Force as just energy created by life and since there are beings like Sith Pure-bloods, Kuranai, and even Yoda’s species that have a natural connection to the Force that I think is correct. The Dark Side in a lot of ways reminds me of the Red and Yellow Lantern Corps in that these negative emotions can take control of you, especially red but when controlled (like say Guy Gardner, Sinestro, Supergirl, and Jessica) have been able to control those emotions and not be slave to them. Luke once said that the Force may not have a light or a dark side but we do and I think that that’s the real truth. The Force is this power that can either guide you or let you get lost in its power and it doesn’t care what’s best for you, it just responds.

@gVert404

Жыл бұрын

exactly, if you can cut a guy in half with a light saber and not be a sith why couldn’t you use lightning on them? it’s accomplishing the same thing, so as long as the intent is good they won’t fall to the “dark side” which is really just using the force for selfish reasons.

@cpenner7086

Жыл бұрын

​@@gVert404 because using the force in a dark way is the dark side...the dark side is corruption of the force...meaning if you corrupt the force you are not good you are not a light user period....

@cpenner7086

Жыл бұрын

because using the force in a dark way is the dark side...the dark side is corruption of the force...meaning if you corrupt the force you are not good you are not a light user period....

@swizzamane8775

Жыл бұрын

glad i wasnt the only one seeing relations to this same concept in other expressions (referring to your DC references.. altho Luke had me tripped, cause primed with Jessica to think, Cage, lol)

@gVert404

Жыл бұрын

@@cpenner7086 but if you’re intent is good then that means you can use whatever force powers you want without turning

I would like Plo Koon's Electric Judgement further explored.

The way I grew to understand the concepts of light side vs dark side the more I realized that it’s about succumbing to the will of the force (traditional light side) vs imposing your own will using the force (traditional dark side). The more your personality and emotional state aligns with one or the other the more powerful you become in “light side” vs “dark side” powers. Nothing about the powers make them inherently good or evil but the requirement to use them effectively stems from the attitude of the user toward the force. It’s not a prerequisite of the “dark side” to be evil, it’s just that evil force users would gravitate toward that power set. Based on that I always thought grey Jedi had a more nuanced relationship with the force and appreciated that sometimes it’s best to go along with the will of the force but at others they used it to achieve certain goals. Because of their neutral-ish alignment on how to deal with the force, they never become extremely powerful with either power set (except in power fantasy games of course)

@thinkinginsidethebox6552

Жыл бұрын

I was always under the impression that Lucas' original idea of Luke was more of a gray jedi, as he only defeated the emperor through emotion and restraint, without emotion, there is no purpose, without restraint, you lose youself.

@Birthday888

Жыл бұрын

@@thinkinginsidethebox6552 See, this is why I don't really like the concept of Grey Jedi, because a good chunk of the time, people seem to think that the Jedi of the prequels are what an "ideal" jedi was. So then they think you can't be a jedi and be fine with having emotions at the same time. Being a Jedi doesn't mean rejecting emotion. In fact, it is this dogmatic approach to their doctrine and trying to eliminate any chance of corruption within the ranks of the jedi that caused their downfall. The only part of the Jedi Code that has to do with prohibiting emotions in anyway is letting yourself be consumed by them. It is not wrong for a jedi to feel angry about death or loss. Or to be afraid for the safety of others. They just need to avoid letting themselves be controlled by those feelings, instead of dealing with them in a healthier way.

Couple things here. I remember reading one of the EU books where Luke was captured by the Kililks, I believe. He used Force Lightening (talked into its exploration by Jacen Solo) and after he had used it an internal monologue he says it made him feel like he had lost 10 years off of his life. That tells me there's an inherently negative property to Dark Side Force abilities. Aside from that I noticed that those that were calling themselves Grey Jedi also practiced a lifestyle of a hermit, isolating themselves and in this way never really being put to the test as to if they could truly keep themselves from falling to the Dark Side through this proposed idea of balancing the use of abilities from both ends of the spectrum.

I seem to recall that Luke's temporary turn to the dark side during the Dark Force comics started having consequences later on in the legends series. Never anything overt, but more of an introspective hindsight that he learned to be wary of.

Couple of additional points: In legends, not sure if it's Canon anymore, but the original jedi existed in balance between the two, and slipping more to one side or the other meant temp exile till you got back on the ball. This would give lie to the idea that "forever will it rule your destiny " etc. I guess it would still apply to jedi that came back, but still carried the damage they did, like kyp. It did always inform his personality afterwards, but didn't mean he was damned for all time. Second: those early jedi were able to swing back and forth a bit without it becoming the SW version of gang warfare. It didn't go that way until the rakata became involved. (Iirc, it's been a minute). The other force using groups muddy it even more. The ang ti and falanassi were essentially blank on the whole idea, and didn't worry about it. Plus one of the latter was totally cool using her abilities to further her goal by at best misrepresentation, if not outright manipulation. Very shady, but not evil. Another point: BOTH sides generally fanatical on destroying the other. For the sith it fits, but for the jedi to have that knee jerk reaction would suggest a darkside influence. They were peacekeepers, diplomats etc till they saw a red blade. Then the go full inquisition. It's notable that Luke's the only film character to try to bring someone back. Speaks to a general intolerance for darkside users. Kinda dark. Lastly you have the nuts and bolts of the force. Light side lightning, battle meditation, even force choke/crush are things that could be called inherently aggressive or darkside, but can be done by lightsiders. I've got no problem w the idea of being on the fence, or not even recognizing the fence, as long as you don't let yourself spiral too deep to one philosophy or the other.

If you think about it, the prequel era Jedi were turning grey as they lost their way.

Grey Jedi are is the most bizarre Mandela Effect in Star Wars. They're simply not a thing.

Regardless on my thoughts of the the idea of Grey Jedi, I always thought the name itself and stuff like "The Grey Code" was pretty unoriginal and generic. Be like calling them "The Neutral Order".

@Hibbidyhai

Жыл бұрын

Not to mention trying to place a ‘code’ on a concept that is inherently anti-establishment, anti-dogma, and individualistic is a paradox big enough to fly a Death Star through. If they aren’t part of any order or creed why would be following a code.

@guccifer764

Жыл бұрын

The Fence-sitters The Centrists The ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Order The “Eh” side of the force

My head canon has the Jedi view emotions as a temptation, that if allowed, could lead Jedi to the dark side. However, the Sith embrace emotions, but the harsh nature of life has fueled their use of negative emotions such as anger or sadness, as it’s easier to draw upon to control the force in attempt to change their poor living conditions. Grey Jedi, embrace emotions, but have serenity in their use of positive emotions such as joy, love, etc. That grey Jedi express freedom in life, as well as purpose come death. To love, to grief, and most of all, to be human.

@gavinsmith9871

Жыл бұрын

The Jedi don't surpress emotions though. They control them.

@adriandiaz-cabrera1733

Жыл бұрын

​@@gavinsmith9871 Did you watch anything other than the original trilogy?

@gavinsmith9871

Жыл бұрын

@@adriandiaz-cabrera1733 Yes. The Jedi don't suppress them in the Prequels either.

@paulrasmussen8953

Жыл бұрын

​@Gavin Smith they don’t allow married that is surpression.

@davidlewis5312

Жыл бұрын

@@gavinsmith9871 sure...

Except that prior to the Sith, the Je'daii taught both sides as balance, and when one became unbalanced in Light or Dark, you were sent to one of the planets moons. So while it may not fit, it doesn't change its origins and setup. Also the idea that an energy field can be good and evil is kind of dumb. A feeling is not evil, the way we use that feeling can be.

The big part of this video you left out here was the story of Revan's fall as told by Kreia, where it wasn't tapping into dark side powers, but his personal and military decisions for the purpose of winning the war led him to fall. I think this is an important storyline (among others, such as Quinlan Vos's) in determining whether or not the "Unifying Force" is valid. Multiple works address the unifying force. SWTOR also tried to steer the player in the direction of the unifying force/"gray Jedi" with Knights of the Fallen Empire when you find Satele Shan and Darth Marr's force ghost. The problem with Gray Jedi is that they're mostly a result of male power fantasies moreso than a fetish for violence. People want it to be official because they want their shoddily written fanfiction or roleplaying character to be allowed to exist. The other issue is that the term itself is canon, it's explicitly used in the Stark Hyperspace War comics in-universe to describe Qui-Gon Jinn. And it was later used officially to describe Starkiller, Revan, and Kyle Katarn with some of the lorebooks/guidebooks/source material from the 2008-2014 EU.

Does electric judgment not get acknowledged anymore? Because that would be light side force lighting, it's not lethal as well and comes from one's desire for justice.

@jthunderboldt

Жыл бұрын

you remember it too, nice

@tjmcfadden5137

Жыл бұрын

No it doesn’t which is sad because so many people always say master plo koon used force lightning so he was grey ha and it’s like no he didn’t he used force judgement which is light side

@yokaiou5848

Жыл бұрын

Yes, but the council itself vetted Plo Koon

@jthunderboldt

Жыл бұрын

@@yokaiou5848 in my opinion force judgment looks cooler too with yellow/orange lightning

I like to use the yin-yang symbol to show the two models of stability: a little light in the dark, or a little dark in the light. Not wholly mixed, but acknowledging the presence of the opposite within you. Yoda understood the dark side well, and even used force lightning against Dooku. But, he only used his understanding of the dark side to anchor himself in the light. However, the rest of the jedi were expected to only touch the light, and thus were blinded to the rot that was overtaking the order. Ironically, they feared the dark side and the sith, while knowing fear was the start to the path of the dark side. This lead them to reacting in absolutely terrible ways, fearing to fight in the Mandalorian wars, fearing criticism and exiling Ahsoka, and fearing emotion, which lead to not understanding that attachment will happen anyways, and leaving weakness in unknowing, which drew Anakin away. Likewise, being purely on the dark side isn't sustainable, as it leads your own to turn on you. It encourages strength, yes, but ends up encouraging self-cannibalism in the end. The Rule of 2 curbed that effect by encouraging self-discipline; one must work for quality apprentices, not a quantity army. In the end, the sith end because Palpatine had greater greed than self control. He sought an army- an empire- of quantity, and fell. Perhaps if the Rule of 2 had been slowly expanded into more sith branches that continued the plan that Plagueis and Palpatine had, rather than pulling the trigger to become Emperor, the sith would have lasted more than 25 years. The plan was a good example of focus, discipline, and peaceful concentration, but was poorly executed. In the end, you need pieces of light and dark to be whole. Allowing emotion but tempering it with control. Willingness to use force and violence, but always trying for peace. Powers don't matter nearly as much as what they are used for and their cost. Force grip could catch and save, or choke. Any attack can be used to protect. Pure good rots, since it doesn't know how close to the dark it truly is. Pure evil consumes itself like fire. You don't need to be perfectly balanced, you just need to acknowledge and make use of what is useful on the other side.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

That's not how it works. *Lucas' Thoughts* "What happens when you go to the Darkside it [the Force] goes out of balance." ~ George Lucas [from the Lucas Video on the Force]. *Luke's Thoughts* "For a Jedi there is no place for a rainbow Force," Luke said quietly. "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben." ~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (Page 187 Fate of the Jedi, Book II: Omen) *Sourcebooks* "The so-called Grey Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council." ~ The Jedi Path: A Manual For Students of The Force

@ellugerdelacruz2555

Жыл бұрын

In your analysis, the Light ultimately is the way to go. I believe ThorSkywalker explained the topic perfectly, the Light side is Health and the Dark is sickness: would you want to be half sick your whole life? No, you woun't function properlly if that's the case. Same goes for the Force, the Light must always triumph over the dark and they can't do that if its emessaries (the Jedi) think they have no darkness within themselves to confront.

@thunderspark1536

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 Why do you keep posting that? People can have their own interpretations of a story you know.

@paulrasmussen8953

Жыл бұрын

People miss that fact that luke technically used the darksude to beat vader but unlike his father resumed control in the end.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

@@thunderspark1536 They don't need their own interpretations. These are sources from Lucas, from the Lorebooks, and from in-universe sources such as Luke. This is the definitive truth of the force. To deny that is to allow fanfiction to twist your perceptions of canonical content.

It's ridiculous that Ki-Adi-Mundi can shout 'bring up the flamethrowers' and proceed to have his troops roast organic enemies alive without other jedi batting an eyelid, but at the same time force lighting is somehow wicked, perfidious, evil darksiding.

The way I’ve thought about it for years is that a Gray Jedi is a jedi that allows their emotions to influence them more. They shift further towards the dark side without truly going all the way. This does grant them more power, but it puts them at greater risk of corruption. They play a dangerous balancing act in which they struggle to keep their emotions on a leash, but don’t fully cage them like many Jedi. They aren’t necessarily stronger than anyone else and are ultimately still Jedi, not rogue force users. I can see why a lot of people don’t like the idea, but it’s always made sense to me.

Or maybe people want Grey Jedi because they don't want a bomb collar on their neck that dictates their choices? As you've said, main quote that people picked up is "Force doesn't pick sides." Locked in alignment that turns you into a lobotomized slave to it can go duck itself, both in Star Wars and in DnD that popularized that nonsense.

I find fanon Grey Jedi as a concept to be the antithesis to the very idea behind the force. It is also based upon many fan misconceptions. There is the illusion that the "light side of the force or the dark side of the force are exclusive to the respective institutions who promote them: jedi and Sith. And there is also the illusion that force powers are simply tools devoid of morality when it is clear that Force choke or Sith lighting are manifestations of giving in to negative or destructive emotions. That's how I view it, but I don't blame or fault the fandom for being split on the issue. Star Wars extended media, whether it be current canon or legends has always been very large and bloated in terms of content and it has often been contradictory in terms of lore. Not every Star Wars author, director, developer, creator is on the same page on how they view the concepts presented in the Star Wars franchise and have often taken the liberty to tell their own stories. With the nature of the force in Star Wars you can easily find specific pieces of media that promote or disprove how you view the force. I personally just stick to "Lucas Canon" as my primary source. [in reflection this whole fan debate is essentially like a religious debate among different sects or denominations over interpretation]

@kylepessell1350

Жыл бұрын

I think the biggest issue is that fans often don't take the idea of 'will of the Force' as a statement of fact and rather see it as metaphorical or through the lens of organization's rules like the Jedi Code.

@Senor21

Жыл бұрын

@Kyle Pessell Couldn't agree more. Fans mistakingly assume the force is some undecided entity that is immoral. Fact is, not only does the Force have a will of it's own, like you have brought up, it also happens that the "light side" (that fans paint is a specific use of the force) is the force in it's natural state. Another misconception that fans have, that lead to this grey jedi, is their mistaken belief on what exactly is "bringing balance" to force.

@Hello-bi1pm

Жыл бұрын

@@Senor21 the films themselves now don't understand balance, just look at sequel trilogy dialogue

@jakewalters3951

Жыл бұрын

@@Hello-bi1pm Your right, Disney clearly dosn't get it.

@granatmof

Жыл бұрын

I think a creative writer could come up with something like a lightside force lightning. Energy redirection is pretty close. I know it's not Canon, but in the Legacy Comics following Lukes' grandson I think the writer did some really interesting things fleshing out the world's and the factions in general. But specific to this conversation of powers introduced a novel force power: resurrection or restore life, but steeped it in the characters fear and in the darkside. The lightside would usually be about accepting death, not running or fearing it, and in a moment of reasonable fear the character is able to use it. By the end of the story the character is able to find a way to use it in the lightside. Also within the story existes alternate Force organizations to the Jedi that weren't Sith. Among them were a group of low sentive force healers and Imperial Knights loyal to the Fel Emporer and sworn to kill the Emperor should they fall to the darkside. Conceptually theres a lot more room for narrative nuance. Even the Jedi Order isn't inexorably tied to the galactic alliance, and the Story really takes off with the Sith attempt to Coup the Fel Emperor andhe has to rule in exhile while the Sith control parts of his fleet and systems. If someone in a tabletop RPG wants to bend the rules and have their Jedi exhile pirate smuggler who force uses pistols from behind cover like the Movie Push wants to figure out a way to use force lightning without accumulating darkside points, then the way around it is to understand nareatively what force lightning is, and figure out a narrative way for energy to flow and distribute in a large area. I'm not a good writer, but my reflecx is to look at something like Avatar the Last Airbender.

As I've seen explained by someone else, the force is light, the dark side of force is more of the darker impulses caused by desires of the flesh, "grey jedi" will either fully given into their emotions and turn to the dark side or become apathetic to the needs of others and the galaxy as a whole. A Star wars galax without the force could be considered a better fate as Keria sought. There is no true free will in the force.

There was a passage in the jedi handbook I think that talk about a jedi master using force lighting like a taser and his thoughts on it

Gray Jedi to me was never about finding the middle point of Jedi and Sith. It was more a rejection of the Jedi Councils of the Prequel or KotOR eras. Force users who embrace attachment and don't view themselves as moral paragons.

I thought Grey Jedi were just light side users that didn't follow the Order and were self exiles

@trutyatces8699

Жыл бұрын

If anything, they only exist when the Jedi Order at large are perverted. Like with Qui-Gon. I wouldn’t consider strays such as him Grey Jedi.

@JonBerry555

Жыл бұрын

In my opinion, this is what grey jedi should be

@sergioruiz733

Жыл бұрын

@@JonBerry555 Its what my interpretation of a Grey Jedi was. I thought a Jedi that used dark side powers, but didn't care about Ultimate power were Dark Jedi.

@indoorplant2392

Жыл бұрын

@@JonBerry555 no? How is Ahsoka more dark side than any actual Jedi? She is literally protected by the lightside force goddess.

@clonecommanderrex8542

Жыл бұрын

That's the official term balancing both sides is the fanfiction version

I like the thought that there is no light and dark side of the force, but just the force and good and bad people who use it

What is said is well said. I find, living in the distant periphery of the fandom, this to be a matter of the manner with which one approaches the fandom. IMO if one takes it mythically and campbellian-ly there can be no in-between, only light and dark. On the other hand if one approaches the fandom in a more rooted-in-tangible-reality way the case for nuance, on the Jedi as well as many other shades of grey, is open.

If you want an example of Grey Jedi, you want Revan at the end of the Old Republic:Revan novel. A man thta had dipped in both sides, a behind that was bsyond simple light and dark. Revan embodied control. Control of his emotions, without shutting out. The jedi tried to shut down their emotions, become a tool of the force. Sith tried to enslave it. To revan, the Force was an old travel companion, aiding each other, relyaing on each other, without one behind the tool of the other.

@WHlSKYtx

Жыл бұрын

Using the term Jedi in there just contradicts itself

@drakethesnek6429

Жыл бұрын

Even revan wasn't a Grey jedi, which is why he developed split personalities.

@TheLostPrimarch2nd

Жыл бұрын

@@WHlSKYtx Where?

@TheLostPrimarch2nd

Жыл бұрын

@@drakethesnek6429 He did not develop a split personality. After 300 years of constant torture and probing by Vitiate himself, he split in two to survive, fueled by

Fans love the concept. George Lucas *hates* it. Both for the same reason: they make "good vs evil" less of a dominating force (pun not intended) in the franchise and more "cold robotic logic vs unrestrained volatile emotion".

@gavinsmith9871

Жыл бұрын

Don't speak for every fan. I fucking hate it.

@lordnul1708

Жыл бұрын

@@gavinsmith9871 why do you think I didn't say "*every* star wars fan"? I was speaking about fans in general, which by classical definition means there's exceptions. Seriously dude, chill a little.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

*Lucas' Thoughts* "What happens when you go to the Darkside it [the Force] goes out of balance." ~ George Lucas [from the Lucas Video on the Force]. *Luke's Thoughts* "For a Jedi there is no place for a rainbow Force," Luke said quietly. "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben." ~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (Page 187 Fate of the Jedi, Book II: Omen) *Sourcebooks* "The so-called Grey Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council." ~ The Jedi Path: A Manual For Students of The Force

@sike2399

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 That last quote is spot-on with how I've always regarded Grey Jedi. It's not a Force alignment where you can suddenly use the powers of the Dark Side while still being pure of heart, it's a philosophy that seems to revolve around the notion that the Jedi Council is not infallible and does not always know best. Sometimes you have to trust your instincts and use your own best judgment. Maybe some Jedi NEVER stop doing that and this is what makes them "Grey".

@Hibbidyhai

Жыл бұрын

@@sike2399 It’s still a misnomer though, because by calling a Jedi ‘grey’ you would be saying they are closer to the dark side than other Jedi, when with examples like Ahsoka or Qui Gon that isn’t true at all. If people want to use it as an in-universe slander/misunderstanding (fictional characters aren’t required to have a perfect understanding of their own universe) that’s fine, but using it to describe characters from the outside is erroneous.

also interesting thing: you can have a light side character that uses lightning, EX: Plo Koon canonically has a light side version of force lightning

I feel like there not being grey Jedi and non-malicious dark side users ruins a lot of the nuance you can have with the force. This is why I’m glad the night sister merin exists. She uses the dark side for ultimately virtuos roles. More over characters like Mace literally incorporate a form of the dark side in his techniques.

@Ecokiz

Жыл бұрын

the mechanics of the Force have absolutely nothing to do with nuance in Star Wars. George Lucas i.e. the guy who created the whole concept was abosolutely clear that the Force existed in a binary. Every single time he's ever discussed the Force he's called the Dark Side corrupting. The only 'exception' to this is the Father and the Bendu and they're the Star Wars versions of cosmic entities, not normal people. Then we've seen neither of them use the dark side and the Bendu specifically chides Kanan and Ezra for letting their fear, one of the big emotions the dark side draws on, unbalance them. And no, Juyo/Vaapad was popular among dark side adepts but it is not a form of the dark side itself; Mace Windu and Depa Billaba were in fact the only master of the vaapad varient who hadn't become fallen. The dark side is BAD because that's literally the foundation of Star Wars and how the Force works. Where nuance is relevant to Star Wars is relevant to Star Wars is how moral stances, which are also stark and clear, operate inside a historical or political environment. Nuance is where during the Clone Wars the Jedi's obligations as peacekeepers conflicted with their obligation of protecting the Republic and they had to make a judgement call about what at the time they saw as the best way to serve for the best possible outcome. You've used Merrin as an example, okay so she's a Nightsister. Nightsisters don't embrace the Dark Side, they use it as a tool and a important part of their training was to not give into the Dark Side completely. In other words they KNOW that ultimately the Dark Side is BAD and train specifically to resist jumping into the deep end. Here the nuance would be how and why the Nightsisters came to make the choice to use the Dark Side despite knowing thats a bad thing. Also so much of Star Wars is about peronal choice and taking action and as has been pointed out to me the whole concept of Grey Jedi removes personal accountability in favour of "Well, why don't they?" which ignores how actions and have consequences and this is a basic lesson you would hope people learn as babies or kids especially when it comes to things the Dark Side draws on: anger, fear, selfishness

@rpk321

11 ай бұрын

​@@Ecokiz Nah, the nuance during the clones wars had nothing to do with jedi philosophy and had everything to do with how the Jedi themselves deviated from the Force's teachings about life. The Darkside is a corruption of the force, not a side of the force technically.

@aguywithalotofopinions412

9 ай бұрын

Yeah exactly, otherwise either A) The force seems like an inherently corrupting entity and having it is more of a curse than anything else Or B) Every Sith lord is just inherently an absolute monster and it removes the simple nuance people inherently have. 99.9% of people aren’t “evil” and portraying them as such is a tad silly. I think KOTOR is one of the best examples of this. I love the game but in Korriban, it’ll give you this whole speech about how “the Sith aren’t evil, they’re free” and even if you don’t fully agree with them, you don’t entirely disagree either. But then in practice, every Sith acts like an evil snake and nothing else. Why would anyone willingly join after being there for more than 5 minutes?

@aguywithalotofopinions412

9 ай бұрын

⁠@@EcokizWell that’s boring. The Force being 100% binary feels silly because in life, nothing is 100% binary.

@jeremyallen5974

7 ай бұрын

Riiight, and 'there is only COMPLETE good or COMPLETE evil' is SO MUCH BETTER

I don’t like a fan of grey jedi as it defeats the point of the force and it seems like an unnecessary point and it makes balance in the force less interesting. If you can achieve balance and tap into both light and dark with you staying in the middle it is a lot less interesting. However to have people trying to achieve that balance is very interesting but they should either be middling in there power in the force or having the strive of balance causing a tragedy.

In the Dark Nest books(I think, its been 20 years since i read it) there is a test given to some students to help a community that is going to be destroyed by a flood from a failing dam. The community is no longer capable of keeping the dam safely. The students use their force powers to reinforce the dam to an extreme level so the community will be kept safe for generations to come. But they are only given a barley passing grade. When they ask why the teacher says that eventually even if its generations hence the problem will reemerge. A better way of solving this issue would have been to help the people evacuate to a safer location. By reinforcing the dam they left the community dependent on the presence of more powerful beings. It kept them in a submissive role in their own existence. To me what the students did was what the old school Jedi order would have done. A Sith would break the dam so the strong would be forced to survive the flood and create a stronger community. The middle road is what i always felt Luke was trying to create. A group of force users that didn't go around solving problems by using the force, but by giving advise and counsel. Not to the leaders of the galaxy but to the leaders of communities. A Jedi that only used violence to stop other violent force users. True nomadic warrior monks with no temple or hierarchy. If one starts setting up a kingdom others will come stop them. A police force that only cares about crimes committed by othet force users. Thats my head cannon anyway.

@rngmade6050

Жыл бұрын

Look up jedi master Fay, in the EU not all Jedi were as monastic as most would think.

I think the appeal of a "grey Jedi" lies in a rejection of some of the worst aspects of Jedi dogma, such as the need to form no attachments, and remove children from their families before they can form them. Something like 50% of our favorite Jedi have actively rejected this dogma, and much of the other half have at least struggled with it, or look the other way when other Jedi do so. And in so doing they become "grey". Because they knowingly risk approaching the dark side in order to live a life worth living. So yeah, for me it's not a fascination with "violence" or a desire to shoot lightning. It's about a Jedi who can be a husband or a wife, a mom or a dad. Plenty of people say "Anakin fell because of his attachments" but the other side of that coin is that he fell because he felt he had to HIDE his attachments. If he could have gone to Yoda or Obi Wan or anyone else with his fears about Padme, Palpatine would have had a much harder time leveraging that fear against him.

There’s those who control the force, those who follow its will, and then the random mechanic who uses it to grab his wrench.

Did Lucas say 'Grey Jedi?' Did Filoni say 'Grey Jedi?' ...nope. People wanna have it both ways. They wanna use cool force powers, and don't want to have to murder a bunch of kittens to do it. But maybe denying certain aspects and having such a stark divide is a good thing. You have this amazing power, yet balance is something beyond you, unobtainable by you, and you're only a small spark in a larger fire. You don't get the best of both worlds, you have to dedicate yourself to one or another.

@kanekikingstorm2113

Жыл бұрын

I think a lot of people just don’t want to pick

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

Lucas told filoni the rule he is only following them and in legends they are canon but not in lucas vision

@adriandiaz-cabrera1733

Жыл бұрын

Lucas didn't say Sith for decades. Didn't mean they weren't a thing.

@Mal-sg6zc

Жыл бұрын

see for me though this idea of locking powers behind a side of the force is so... gamey. force choke for example... it's just telekinesis... but oh god because it's aimed at the throat it uses the bad guy energy

@thebob5240

Жыл бұрын

@Kaneki Kingstorm I mean to quote eck, is that really a bad thing? That people want to have cool force powers but not be basically a Punisher villian to get them?

If you understand Buddhism, you understand the force.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

No, you don't. *Lucas' Thoughts* "What happens when you go to the Darkside it [the Force] goes out of balance." ~ George Lucas [from the Lucas Video on the Force]. *Luke's Thoughts* "For a Jedi there is no place for a rainbow Force," Luke said quietly. "There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben." ~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (Page 187 Fate of the Jedi, Book II: Omen) *Sourcebooks* "The so-called Grey Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council." ~ The Jedi Path: A Manual For Students of The Force

@Samdegraff

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 Yes you do. everything you said to "refute" me comes from the expanded universe. Anyone with even a limited understanding of Eastern Mysticism recognizes what the "rules of the force are.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

@@Samdegraff Lucas is not the Expanded Universe. And even if he is, I'm not sure why that makes any of what I wrote invalid.

@Samdegraff

Жыл бұрын

@@curzon9619 You primarily quoted the expanded universe. sorry pal. you can't just decide 3/4th of what you posted is irrelevant just to bolster this weird bullshit argument. Lucas was specifically influenced bu eastern mysticism, this is both obvious an backed up by what he himself has stated. You are wrong. i am right. the end.

@curzon9619

Жыл бұрын

@Samdegraff I post quotes from the creator and information from sourcebooks. You deny it because it's not what you like. You are in denial.

From my point of viev there is no "light side" of the force but there is a dark side. The dark side is a perversion of the true force what people know as the light side, so no they're are not gray jedi but they're are unaligned force users who are conected to the force but are not jedi or darksiders

My biggest problem with the idea of grey jedi is that if they could actually exist in canon, Anakin likely would've been that as opposed to a sith, as well of plenty of other jedi turned sith. The whole conflict between light and dark is that the dark side corrupts its users. The idea of someone who can use the dark side without consequences goes against the entire central conflict of the original star wars story

There is no “dark” or “light” side. It’s just shorthand. The light side is the force. The dark side is the force corrupted by the user. There is no balance to be found between the dark and light side because the dark side is just the corruption of the light. When you twist the force, it twists back. Using the force in this way bends the mind. You turn into a corrupted version of yourself and only become more addicted to and reliant on using the force in this way. The closest thing that can exist to a Grey Jedi is Qui-Gon. He only uses the light, but he is willing to achieve what he believes is the natural will of the force through somewhat less than moral means. However, he still does not bend the force to his own will. Specifically force lightning is achieved (with rare exception) by taking your anger and hate and manifesting it physically. Not really something a good person could normally do. By having that kind of mastery over using your anger with the force, you’ve definitely already had your mind altered by the force

@samuellanghus1455

Жыл бұрын

Mace Windu and Vaapad?

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

A yes that might be truth but not in legends

@FemboyCherryBlossom

Жыл бұрын

@@samuellanghus1455 Vaapad was a way to utilize the emotions of the opponent, and use it against them. You allowed their desires, their hatred, etc to flow through you. You acknowledge your own dark emotions, but you do not let them control you. Instead, you fed off the hate of the opponent, letting their anger influence you moves, but never letting their anger inside you. When you use vaapad, you allow yourself to flow through the “dark side” without becoming entangled in it. It requires constant self monitoring while using it, or else you might give into your emotions. Because of this, the form is extremely dangerous to use, and very well could lead to the user becoming corrupted. There is a thin line between letting your opponent’s hate guide you, and bringing that hate in and letting it control you. The quote Windu, speaking of a fallen Jedi, “Bulq did not master Vaapad; Vaapad mastered him.”

@FemboyCherryBlossom

Жыл бұрын

@@anteprs7908 what part is contradicted by legends?

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

@@FemboyCherryBlossom the no balance between the dark and light .

To me, I feel like Grey Jedis can exist, just make it clear that Jedi and Sith can reach beyond their power level after a point because you are actually embracing or taking control of the force instead of doing this muddy in between. Or in other words, You can do your force lightning while not becoming a Sith, but it should come at a cost of being stunted in your power.

@Charolette21

Жыл бұрын

The power levels don't matter, they ain't Sayens. Are they mentally stable and living their own path not based on magic cults?

@gavinsmith9871

Жыл бұрын

Jedi taking control of the force? Lmao.

@johnduquette7023

Жыл бұрын

Power is an illusion, something the Sith can't grasp and the Jedi regularly forget. All Force "users" are possessions of the overriding Will of the Force, the Guiding Hand that Kreia recognized and vainly attempted to kill. All is within the Force, the potency of manifestation is ultimately at the leisure of that guiding Will, regardless of what figures like the Sith or the more stunted members of the Jedi order tell themselves.

@Predator20357

Жыл бұрын

@@Charolette21 Bold to assume that Jedi’s aren’t mentally stable and can live their own path. Also bold to call them Cults when the Gray Jedi teacher is the one saying “Your wrong, I’m right” while being essentially nonexistent compared to the Jedi and Sith groups I think your under the assumption that Grey Jedi aren’t a group of worshippers when in reality they are. You know the term for a force user that isn’t part of the Jedi or Sith teaching is? A force user. Also not relevant but it’s Saiyan TLDR; I think they Grey Order got you stuck in the basement for too long and made you think that they are the only way for peace as a force user.

@Charolette21

Жыл бұрын

@@Predator20357 Let's not call them 'jedi' then, "Neutal Force users". There are penty of people that jump right to power levels and what goofy shit they can do when rating magic space samurai, I think about that as a secondary thing. Mental wellness and therapy is what you should put more focus on. And the jedi are a cult of space wizards, Religions are just cults but bigger and with a stronger influence. The jedi fold into the darkside like it's their second nature. Most re-ermerging sith are pissed off ex-jedi who weren't taught to manage their emotions and other things regular therapy could do better at helping with. See, using religion as the motivator to be good or any flavor of bad is a terrible and frankly a frail basis of your morality, No one should have to tell you to be a good person overall. It ain't about just seeking nirvana or enlightenment, It's about getting out of those ruts in your life, picking yourself up, getting on that horse, keep on being your best self. If you fall down, ok, Get up and keep on going. It'll be messy and you'll have moments you'll regret at the moment, but life goes on, it ain't the end of the world. Live a life you can say you're proud of, that YOU made, and one you won't ultimately regret. Also, it's a typo, shush you silly goofball.

I love how reasonable you are with this. Great video!

I think the "dark side" is both the unrestrained force and the unrestrained force user. It's what happens when you allow yourself to give into your base desires. This is where I actually agree with the unifying force more than light and dark side. The dark side is the manifestation of our own darkest passions and desires and to find balance we need to find balance in ourselves acknowledgement of our darker nature I rejecting the power it may bring us and control it has over us.. Edit: example is the Yoda arc in season 6 of TCW where he faces his dark side manifestation. That is what the dark side is, it's us giving into temptation and power and corruption.

People are afraid of the idea of having a code to live by, a standard to live up to. So instead we get grey Jedi. You don’t have to follow any code and can do whatever you want whenever you feel like it.

@brandonburns5249

Жыл бұрын

A mirror of society at large.

@indoorplant2392

Жыл бұрын

Why is that bad?

@TheNobleFive

Жыл бұрын

​@@brandonburns5249We really do live in a society.

@sergioruiz733

Жыл бұрын

As an ex military that did some contracting post military. Hard disagree.

@James_randomleters

Жыл бұрын

@@sergioruiz733 what does that have to do with it at all? I’m not seeing the connection.

I think the universe is so less interesting and so much more unphilosophical due to the light=good dark=bad dichotomy.

@indoorplant2392

Жыл бұрын

Facts! Legend of korra type retcon

I think of a grey jedi as like a anti hero they aren't completely evil but will do what they must, but not a full on jedi that devotes their lives to the force, they are able to use the force on middle ground.

Grey Jedi in my head is just someone who was raised to be a Jedi and is mostly morally aligned with them, but frequently flaunts the rules to get things done. Potentially to the point of being expelled from the order, or just staying roughly within the rules like Qui’gon.

I've always liked the idea of Grey Jedi because they seem to be the most emotionally mature force users. Sith are ruled by their emotions and so have their decisions clouded by them. The Jedi ignore their emotions and thus their padawans are constantly falling to the dark side in every story we hear because they can't control their emotions when tempted by the dark side. People talk about how the lesson of Star wars is that you have to make a choice between the light and the dark and if you start down the path of the dark side it will corrupt you fully. What Star wars doesn't teach you and fails to understand is that by not paying attention to their emotional well-being they leave themselves open to the dark side or if you want to translate this to the real world, those darker emotions like depression, fear and anger that are difficult to control in our day-to-day lives. But you don't control those by ignoring them, you control them by understanding them and then working through their causes to be able to reach a more balanced and happy life.

@davidmclean357

Жыл бұрын

That or you can consider Jedi and Sith as "force slaves" submitting their will to the light or dark sides at the cost of some part of themselves. This tension is why the Sith seem obsessed with betrayal and the Jedi often fall into the dark path. They don't use the force, the force uses them. Gray side are not Jedi or Sith. They use the force and refuse to let the force corrupt their personality/decision making. If the force is a drug they are the ones who aren't addicts.

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

The idea of grey jedi that you've always liked simply never existed in the settings canon though. You apparently like a fan fiction. You assessment of Jedi and sith is way off canon too, oh well.

@XCalibur_EX

Жыл бұрын

​@@lesigh1749 Gonna be honest here Who cares? Let people have fun

@lesigh1749

Жыл бұрын

@@XCalibur_EX Their fun is stupid.

@XCalibur_EX

Жыл бұрын

@@lesigh1749 I think you're stupid for trying to tell people what they can and can't enjoy Gatekeeping at its finest I'll say it here, George helped work on KotOR, he actually really liked the games and stories, enough to consider them part of his stories He also helped Wizards of the Coast make their Official KotOR tabletop rpg guidebook, which includes a section about Grey Jedi