"You can't force a game to be an eSport." Blizzard: "I'mma pretend I didn't hear that."

@Rune3D

11 ай бұрын

How does this NOT have a thousand likes??

@digojez

11 ай бұрын

@@Rune3D 8 months late to post the comment of the month

@disobey8828

11 ай бұрын

The guy of the video is lying, Overwatch is the perfect example of a casual Game Made for not offend the casuals, now is in a hole. Valorant was made for proplayers, that's the reason why have trash graphics, just for optimise fps and fast reactions like Counter Strike. Just ignorant youtubers talking about things that they don't understand.

@user-wj6jh1cd5n

11 ай бұрын

Makes me think of Cliff Bleszinski and lawbreakers.

@stupid_apple2070

11 ай бұрын

any call of duty game: ESPORT!!!!!!! SLIDE CANCEL 100% SPEED FMJ ACR HYBRIDSIGHTGODMODE!!!!!!!!!

The pros are supposed to be good at the game, not change the game so they can be good at it.

@shreks_loins3963

Жыл бұрын

Very well said. I think all developers need to see this comment. Seriously

@KrolKaz

Жыл бұрын

True, but if you dotn listen to them then they'll just play a different game.

@LamborghiniDiabloSVPursuit

Жыл бұрын

@@KrolKaz Then fine. The pro scene is an absolute minority compared to the casual scene in any large-scale multiplayer game. You can host all the pro tournaments you want, but its the casuals who'll be watching and paying the revenue for all the sponsors of your pro teams.

@Sonof_DRN2004

Жыл бұрын

@@KrolKaz I don’t think that’s true, you need a lot of things to become a pro gamer, some of those being passion and commitment. Most importantly passion. A pro player who is very passionate about the game will want to play it regardless and won’t easily quit. Even if it had a over powered Spartan laser that makes driving any vehicle extremely risky. I don’t remember pros getting but hurt about the Spartan laser in Halo 3, Reach and 4. Edit: Dodging/evading the Spartan laser in a warthog or a falcon adds another layer of skill gap which separates the pros from the normies. However I will say the Spartan laser is even more of a problem now due to people being able to play the old games with a keyboard via MCC. It will definitely be harder to avoid the laser in vehicles against a mouse user.

@badreedinedjellali1328

Жыл бұрын

yeah no wonder why the only liked elder ring and called other games trash

"Calling yourself a good designer because you're good at games. Is like saying a porn addict is good at sex" I feel like a lot of this audience needed to hear that.

@RockwellSocratese

5 ай бұрын

Holy shit your right. I can't argue with that.

@ivoryas1696

3 ай бұрын

@FROEZOEN This audience? What'd they do? 💀

@maximumeffort2381

2 ай бұрын

@@ivoryas1696bro why u feel attacked lmao

@ivoryas1696

2 ай бұрын

@@maximumeffort2381 I'm not a member of this audience. I was just curious, tbh. 🤷🏾‍♂

@ScilliRhexi6344

Ай бұрын

Isnt this why every sports movie has a training arc? So they can train and get good? WTF am I missing here?

I used to play Smite years ago, and I remember watching the patch notes constantly thinking: "Why are they changing this?" and a friend having to explain to me a random moment at the Pro League where someone used a weird tactic or build and the entire game had to be updated regarding it. I hated those moments.

@user-fn2mx6dd5k

6 ай бұрын

1 that's why arena is the only valid mode and conquest is a hellhole never to be touched 2 league also had a lot of these like lvl 1 bard invade they had to change the jungle spawns for

@hfweuiofnweuio500

6 ай бұрын

This is fault of the developers who cant let go of the vision of their game and give control of the meta to players. There is a infamous website that is basically a massive rant about developers doing this stuff.

@alphadeltaroflcopter

6 ай бұрын

​@@user-fn2mx6dd5kdon't even get me started being forced to play a losing hour and half game because duo is feeding and refuses to surrender the game. I'd rather just push siege minons all day.

@user-fn2mx6dd5k

6 ай бұрын

@@alphadeltaroflcopter arena superior Conquest inferior

@AmeSame

6 ай бұрын

The death of Golden Blade was when I realized HiRez only listened to Conquest players

Gotta remember that Halo's MP didn't start as this hyper-competitive sweat fest. It started on the couch with split-screen, which is about as casual as you can get. Even down to the screen cheating. Though I never use to do that... Never.

@Joeru510

Жыл бұрын

Right that’s what I said. It was only competitive when your buddies were trying to shit on you and you got serious all of a sudden. But at its core it’s always been a fun sandbox shooter with multiple ways to manipulate the sandbox to your advantage. If you didn’t know how to manipulate the sandbox then it was just all out casual fun with cool ass space/human weapons with your buddies on the couch.

@greedyclown851

Жыл бұрын

And still CE was the most skillful

@runningoutofnames6956

Жыл бұрын

Suuure buddy

@fenexus404

Жыл бұрын

@@runningoutofnames6956 we believe you...

@DanTessman88

Жыл бұрын

@@greedyclown851 I miss being able to stick my sticky grenades to each other to launch one across the map at the enemy team, or straight up in the air as a misdirection tactic

The worst case of this is when a game was not designed to be competitive, then the developers try all the sudden to engineer it to be competitive.

@lonec1777

Жыл бұрын

@@scrimbim6056 exactly what i was referring lmao, but many others

@MrToddino

Жыл бұрын

@@lonec1777 melee but its the fans themselves juryrigging a competitive scene

@lonec1777

Жыл бұрын

@@MrToddino lmao true

@JadeHehehe

Жыл бұрын

@@scrimbim6056 Except it is still an amazing game

@thesharinganknight9859

Жыл бұрын

Cod

This will probably show my age. But I remember that there was a Half-Life 1 mod called "The Specialist". It's really just another Deathmatch/Team Deathmatch game, but the whole gimmick about it is that the game lets you do action movie-esq stunts, complete with the same 80-90's action movie esthetics in map designs and character models. It was super fun seeing everyone doing dives, somersaults, and the signature Matrix dodges during a match. Every update some new interesting features gets added in. Until one day then the top "Pro" players in the community started whining about how the mod has become "too slow paced" and that the mod is now all about looking cool while shooting, instead of "skill" in shooting. And the developer ended up listening to those guys exclusively for the next overhaul update. They massively sped up the TTK, and sped up the movement speed. To the point that doing any stunt just make you more likely to die with no upsides. The mod turned into a railgun arena, where the most optimal way of play is just circle strafing. Community basically died within months of the overhaul. Even after the developer tried to revert most of the changes in the overhaul, the community population never really recovered. And guess what, the "Pro" players also left soon after they stank up the mod with their inputs. I'm still bitter to this day how a bunch of elitists murdered one of the most unique mod that came out of the Half Life 1 era. That other mod Action Half-Life was nowhere near as polished as The Specialist.

@Ethan-gw6mi

2 ай бұрын

Oh my god I remember this! It really was exactly like what this video described 😂

@zs9652

2 ай бұрын

Fps pros are some of the worst pros there are when it comes to fun. All they want to do is point and click. I kinda want an fps that aims for you but forces you to strategize by handling your kit and positioning better than your opponent. That way all the fps pro aimbot players won't play it lol.

@fantasticmrmonk

Ай бұрын

@@zs9652umm, you already have to do all that stuff in fps (both competitive and casual). It isn’t point and click, that’s entirely reductive of the genre.

@commentextary

Ай бұрын

@@fantasticmrmonkSomeone's never played... TF2, CoD, Fortnite, etc.

@RadioactiveBlutonium

Ай бұрын

@@commentextary I can't speak for the others because I wouldn't play them, but TF2 is absolutely not just "point and click".

Is no one old enough to remember quake or UT? Created the entire genre that we know it and had(still to this day) some of the most impressive pros in the world. Don't recall any of them changing the game. Instead, they embraced the game and found out how to work around perceived problems.

@markfreeman4727

4 ай бұрын

Old pros: improve, adapt, overcome New Pros: WAHHHH Change the game to suit meeeeeee!!!

@kolonarulez5222

4 ай бұрын

Quake was my very first PC game!

@penguinjay

2 ай бұрын

@@markfreeman4727Truly, this is a problem with post launch updates and "seasons," games as live service etc. When the game was shipped, and there were not going to be updates, things were better. No amount of complaining could push change. Now, the games are shipped in beta, and the players actually have input on changes and that's a detriment to the final product, because the loudest person does not represent the playerbase, but moreso the opposite. Nobody wants the stuff that the skilled players demand. Nobody benefits from it except the self serving people trying to get games tailor-made to match their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

@-joker2010

2 ай бұрын

@@markfreeman4727 if u cant adapt. then thats a big skill issue lol.

@caniputmyballsinyojaw

Ай бұрын

it's way easier to change a game now than it was then, especially to actually have people play the new version. + most people who have sentiment towards quake have moved on from avid gaming

It’s important to remember that a good chunk of FPS players don’t ever even touch competitive multiplayer. Many only dabble in it. Very few actually play competitively.

@happyjohn354

Жыл бұрын

Been playing CS go for years and play so little competitive I am technically unranked.

@bakuguardian

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, as much as I love Halo, I haven't touched Infinite's ranked play much at all. If SBM was to blame, half of my matches were against guys way above my weight class that turned a seemingly casual match of slayer into a one-sided stompfest. Competitive just ramped up that power creep to 11 and I felt completely outmatched. I'd rather play for fun with the boys since to me, that's what Halo was always about. Squading up with your friends to kick as much ass as possible and have a blast while doing it.

@dillonc7955

Жыл бұрын

This is exactly how I feel. I touched ranked in Rainbow Six and Black Ops 2. Both modes didn't feel like my thing. I respect those who get the highest rank, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing my casual experiences getting treated like competitive. This has pretty much led me to stick to single player and coop games instead of having a headache with games I can only force myself to like.

@KalElinabox

Жыл бұрын

I touched competitive overwatch and quick play is better. Competitive overwatch has smurfs and once you end up in a low rank it's near impossible to get out as it'll match you with worse players as your rank drops even if you get better at the game.

@TheSpeep

Жыл бұрын

Only FPS I play are basically coop PvE exclusively. I played Overwatch for a while back in the day, and I had a good time with it, but as things got more competitive I just lost interest, and thats probably the only PvP shooter I've ever played, and I basically avoided ranked games like the plague. Other than that, admittedly the only shooters I think I've actually played are Borderlands 2 & 3, with friends, and most importantly, Deep Rock Galactic, solo or with friends or randos, and those have all been a blast.

Anybody else remember that time when halo 3 launched with a bug that caused melele kills to randomly send people flying into orbit? There was a dev post on the forums replying to it that said, if I remember correctly word for word, "This is awsome, we are keeping it in". Within 3 months MLG had cried enough mountain dew tears to get them to fix it... making everybody's lives worse as a result. Remember kids, pro gamers don't want you to have fun, they want to beat your ass on stream for views.

@quinkledinkle3760

Жыл бұрын

This is why it's 100 percent ethical to target anyone with "TTV" in a match.

@chrismedina54

Жыл бұрын

I target anyone with YT or faze on their names.

@Chicky_Lumps

Жыл бұрын

Did the glitch affect damage or was it just a ragdoll bug? Because pros demanding a funny visual bug be fixed is the pinnacle of pettiness.

@reidwallace4258

Жыл бұрын

@@Chicky_Lumps In one match at least it flew up and intercepted an incoming rocket launcher shot. 1 in a million odds, but pros get mad when they lose.

@r4k00n5

Жыл бұрын

@@reidwallace4258 I need footage?

The reason pro players are better than the developers is because the developers actually have a real job.

@arikomart7209

Ай бұрын

You mean worse

@alibi4483

Ай бұрын

Rn It's probably better to be an esport player then a game dev at a triple a company won't even lie

In Pokemon, there is a creature known as Zoroark. It has a simple ability: it can disguise as the last pokemon in your party. It does not change Type. It does not change stats. It does not change moves. It is just a normal pokemon that lies about what it is. Pokemon Showdown has a feature where players can look at their opponent's team. Zoroark still fools people. Even pros. That is the DEFINITION of skill issue. If you can't just look at a PNG and remember this one gimmick meant to throw off newbies, then that loss is your fault. The only time strategies and pokemon have been banned is when it turns the match into a coinflip, since whoever goes first can pull off their strategy fastest. Cough cough. Baton Pass. A move that lets you swap out and pass positive stat changes onto your other pokemon, essentially letting you skip most of the mindgames.

@rosebelmahjoubi1932

Ай бұрын

my favorite part of this is when both players have a zoroark (especially h-zoroark with its weird typing) and you get to play the fun game of "is this a zoroark or am i paranoid"

@Pheonix686

Ай бұрын

One of the best things about Pokémon is that it has inherent RNG included meaning that you can't always play the perfect game. Damage rolls and inaccurate moves plus other factors mean that there's randomness that makes no two games identical.

@dsadsa-qt7wx

29 күн бұрын

arent the videos of pokemon tryhards falling for dumb strategies like zoroark fake

The competitive eater analogy is perfect. A competitive eater might want a chef to make more slimy hot dogs so they can eat them faster when they visit the chef’s restaurant. While 99% of the costumers that go to the chef’s restaurant don’t wanna eat slimy hotdogs, they wanna eat good food and enjoy a pleasant ambience.

@Okarabouzouklis

Жыл бұрын

Slimy hotdogs????

@niegilsuck3072

Жыл бұрын

@@Okarabouzouklis slides down faster

@dantefromdevilmaycry9857

Жыл бұрын

@@niegilsuck3072 Hmmm... I wonder what other kind of use can I implement further.

@saltblood

Жыл бұрын

LOL

@frankaliberti

Жыл бұрын

@@Okarabouzouklis have you never seen an eating competition?

Being a pro doesn’t make you smarter than an actual game developer

@jayvhoncalma3458

Жыл бұрын

True it's like saying a skilled soldier is smarter than the tactician that makes sure the skilled soldier don't take any unnecessary risks

@theuntouchableking6124

Жыл бұрын

@@jayvhoncalma3458 fax

@ZeroKitsune

Жыл бұрын

I do think some pros have a good idea about what games need...maybe even more than the actual game developers sometimes. I mean don't forget that the devs are human and make mistakes too. But emphasis on "some" in that sentence. In general, most people are not game designers, that much has definitely been shown to me throughout my experiences on the internet.

@TomCruz54321

Жыл бұрын

It's so annoying when devs listen to the minority that wants to nerf everything. *"Please nerf Fireball. Please nerf Backstab. Please nerf the Archer. Please nerf the Assassin. Please nerf the Cleric."* Yes they are the most prominent posters on the forum, but they're just 20 people circle-jerking themselves, they don't represent the 500,000 customers that will buy this game. Most players are annoyed every time a nerf is announced..

@theuntouchableking6124

Жыл бұрын

@@TomCruz54321 facts

My best experience for multiplayer games is when I actually just play it with my friends (irl) casually and not strangers who might just talk smack at you for making a mistake by the ones who take it too seriously.

@suntzu6122

6 ай бұрын

Which is what SBMM is for. TF is your point?

@pxritus

5 ай бұрын

@@suntzu6122 just cap lil bro, what if you wanted to sweat sometimes and play casually some other times... what are you going to do when ur mm is just sweats you cant even have fun

@suntzu6122

5 ай бұрын

@@pxritus play unranked obviously. If the only time u can have fun is destroying 8 year olds go be a preschool treacher lmaooooo

@skorpion7132

Ай бұрын

@@suntzu6122 Not every game has that. And SSBM does not guarantee having tryhards in your group.

@suntzu6122

Ай бұрын

@@skorpion7132 Damn near every single game with a matchmaking system uses glicko 2. And how tryhard people are is 100% irrelevant. It pairs like-skilled players together. Its more 'clean' in a 1v1 setting but still works in higher numbers. At 6v6 or higher its prob not the move. For 5v5 its still perfect for dota 2, for example.

The casual scene is much more important than competetive

@saltycomet

2 ай бұрын

💯

@Waaaltz_

2 ай бұрын

Too bad we're getting shoved away. This is why I chosed to play Survival Games and Dungeon Crawler games.

@PosterityIslesNews

Ай бұрын

​@@Waaaltz_until games like rust start doing the same thing

@Waaaltz_

Ай бұрын

@@PosterityIslesNews I don't play Rust, by Survival Games I'm talking about Green Hell, Valheim and Sons of the Forests

@MetallicSZN

Ай бұрын

Literally just give the two fanbases two separate game modes lmfao. It's not that hard.

Unpredictability is what creates nostalgic memories. People reminisce over crazy shit happening in games, which can only happen if there's some unpredictability. Nobody says "man remember that time that I held m1 and kept my crosshair on the enemy until he died just like every other fight in every other match in almost every other game?"

@Stryfe52

Жыл бұрын

It makes me wish that more games has *actual* random encounters

@Spazmonkey625

Жыл бұрын

I feel like you're really downplaying how fun it can be to play a game well though. As an example, pulling off a series of absurdly nasty Hanzo shots while evading enemy cc in Overwatch to clear a point, that's pretty cool and can be both really fun and pretty hard to do. While on the flipside, getting the squad and dicking around with a team that's nothing but Torbjorns, also pretty fun. These things don't have to be mutually exclusive, the game can be balanced and built for competitive while still being fun to dick around in. Your "I just held m1" example is exactly something that people remember, because at the end of the day literally anything you do in a shooter can basically be boiled down to that. Oh you played league? Well regardless if you're making a nutty play in competitive or fucking around with friends all you really did was right click. This just feels like a dishonest argument.

@greatkanohimask

Жыл бұрын

nice reductive analysis

@flow185

Жыл бұрын

@Paul Martin fr fr I was 4th in Mario Kart, I threw a Bob omb, it hit the 1st and 2nd then u overtook everyone and got first just before the finish line

@Sonichero151

Жыл бұрын

Or you're ninja and you reminisce about some shit you were doing in League and your braless wife brings you a sandwich unwarranted

This is my feeling back when TF2 still got updates. The competitive scene demanded nerfs for weapons that really didn't need them and were only a problem at the highest level of optimal play like the Base Jumper (parachute). The nerfs we got completely ruined them in pubs and made them more acceptable for the rather stale tf2 competitive meta. Many good weapons were destroyed because valve for a time was only listening to the top 1% of the playerbase.... We lost the caber's ability to oneshot light classes even though all anyone used it for in pubs was to harass clueless snipers. We lost the fun fast heavy loadout because "heavy shouldn't be allowed to get to mid fast" and that butchered two weapons. We lost the versatility of the cleaver because it made scout too effective in chokepoints. We lost the hijinxs one could do with the base jumper because "Scout can't hit soldier when he uses it" Basically anytime a class had a weapon that threatened the tf2 comp scene meta, it's weapons got nerfed into boring, useless options that no one touch anymore.

@qwertyiuwg4uwtwthn

Жыл бұрын

this comment needs more likes

@StalkerG88

Жыл бұрын

The same happened with R6 Siege

@Billymaysx

Жыл бұрын

They did the same thing with the Axtinguisher too! It was too strong in competitive play so they gutted it. This caused it to become useless and encouraged the majority of players to play Pyro as a Mouse 1 Pyro.

@isopod_gaming-real-

Жыл бұрын

At least the caber is still silly

@kylepangilinan9075

Жыл бұрын

Its funny because despite these nerfs, the BASE Jumper is STILL banned in competitive 6s because the mere ability to hover over a point and spam out damage was way too strong. Like, what was the point of even trying to nerf this thing to get it to work in competitive if the core concept is too incompatible with the format? Just keep it banned and everyone would have been happy.

Actually with the OG Halo 3, you could change a setting to either, skill based matching, OR quickest server connection. So they let you choose, a fast connecting game, or a closer skill level matched game. So weve kinda gone backwards...

@sniperyuni

Ай бұрын

that and the monotony of current day: Play match, get kicked back to menu, start matchmaking for the same game againg compared to older games where you could stick with a lobby & as long as most people didnt leave & just have match after match with the only matchmaking to fill empty spots

@VashStarwind

Ай бұрын

@@sniperyuniYeah. Its literally the dmmbest idea to send people back to the main menu after every game. People would stick with the same lobby, and before they knew it, 4 or 5 hours would pass. Sticking with the same lobby, got people to play the game for longer. Its almost like they dont want people to make friends these days or something.. lol

@g0atman88

Ай бұрын

​@@VashStarwindnice samurai champloo profile pic :)

@organicleaf

21 күн бұрын

@@VashStarwind that would mean servers and we all know how much devs nowadays love matchmaking so i doubt stuff like that will come back :/

@VashStarwind

20 күн бұрын

I gotta mention. I recently looked on OG halo 3. And it wasnt Skill based match making and quickest connection. It was quickest connection or BEST (most stable) connection. I thought it was either quick connection or skill based connection, but i guess i was wrong. Sorry dudes.

It's for these reasons you mentioned I've been back and forth on Destiny 2!... PvP is ruined because "try hards" complain when some nube ends there 20 kill streak with a ability thus making that ability "to easy" and PVE is increasingly becoming more difficult because "try hards" blow through content with the best weapons, gear and teams then they complain about how they ran out of stuff to do and it's to easy! When in reality they *NEED* to get a life and get out more! It's crazy man...

Games should have the same motto... "Easy to get good at...but Hard to get great at"

@caldog619

Жыл бұрын

Mahjong: a minute to play, a lifetime to master

@manolgeorgiev9664

Жыл бұрын

Easy to play, hard to master

@dominicballinger6536

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, easy to learn, hard to master

@kraptastic333

Жыл бұрын

I'm the fourth comment repeating or rephrasing what you already said

@SpottedHares

Жыл бұрын

“Easy to play… effort to get good… hard to master… impossible to perfect”

Also, "pros" are usually insufferable and eager to optimize all of the fun out of a game. I've never seen a game that moved more in the direction the pros wanted become more fun as a result.

@kokushibo7501

3 ай бұрын

especially otzdarva and dead by daylight lmfao and his audience just amplify his words

@2ndCumminoftheAnti-Chrsitgau

3 ай бұрын

most accurate comment I've ever read

@FormulePoeme807

2 ай бұрын

​​​@@kokushibo7501Honestly i think OTZ is the only pro i can say who doesn't do that As stated by him he does not like players needing to only use the meta, he doesn't like needing to know what perk someone took to be able to play the match, cause while competitively viable as a gamplay loop, getting fucked because you couldn't know someone had something is just not fun. He also was pushing for DS nerf so that it doesn't make every game a chore while still being good, he even let out the idea of DS to be base kit i believe In general i believe his stance on balancing is, even if something is fine in a pure balance standpoint, if it's not fun it should change

@expl0sives4day58

2 ай бұрын

Can relate heavily with rainbow six siege, they even go as far as to remove unnecessary things entirely.

@usarhabilidade2697

2 ай бұрын

​@@expl0sives4day58 Yup, recently I went back to Rainbow siege and...man... They took so many Little things out of the game, things that don't even matter at all. Like the little Effects that happen when your bullets hit someone, or the red X when you kill someone Really why take that off?...I'm pretty sure that was something a pro player woke angry about and made developers remove

I’m glad someone finally made a video like this. I’ve always felt that pros can’t have their hands in the cookie jar. Developers should be sticking to walking their line and making their games fun for everyone. Not just sweaty players.

Games should be fun first and foremost. If your game is fun, people will want to play it more, and a competative scene will form out of genuine love for the game. That's what makes a game last. Take Team Fortress 2 for example, that game is wacky and fun, and it's lasted with a dedicated competative community despite not being supported by Valve in any meaningful way. Make a fun game, and you will have more players that stick around.

@Ferrochrome12

3 ай бұрын

and then comp players want to take all the fun out of the game just so soldiers can stomp even harder.... 🙄

I started hating pros' opinions with the Zofia incedent in Rainbow Six: Siege. Zofia had an ability to self revive if she was downed but not killed. She was the only operator with this ability, and was the only "healer" on the attacking side for a while. However, there was a pro championship match were the defenders forgot about that ability, and the Zofia got back up and won the tournament. The losing team complained about it so much that Ubisoft removed that ability from her

@XWXS2

8 ай бұрын

Played rainbow since alpha 2015 and all my friends stopped playing the game since 2019 Rainbow six siege is so trash now they should call it "E sports Six Siege" all in favor for all those e sport Lamers who are not even good at the game they ruined the whole experience for all the others and especially rainbow six Fans who really liked siege at first. They are probably only in the e sport scene because they have connections to some higher up people or something or maybe a family member is involved with the game...but those "pros" are definitely not the best players! the best players are people you probably don't know.

@XWXS2

8 ай бұрын

@@Lemi713 I was tired af hope you understand now

@kasper7574

8 ай бұрын

Are you sure you're not talking about Finka? or is Finka what became of this bullshit?

@ryxceb9977

8 ай бұрын

@@kasper7574 Finka was not able to get herself up at that time. They later added that ability sometime after removing it from Zofia

@ThePalebloodMaiden

8 ай бұрын

didn't they also add the ability to self res with ALL defenders as long as they have a rook plate equipped?@@ryxceb9977

Griesemer identified them as "optimizers" in his taxonomy of player types, they are perfectly happy to use only one strategy if it's the most optimal. If they're having "too" much fun, something is probably wrong and needs nerfing or buffing.

@221Prohunter

Жыл бұрын

This is the playstyle I can’t stand. For some people it’s all about what the literal best thing they can do to win absolutely every engagement with the fastest TTK. It’s such a boring way to play, these people will use the same thing for years if it doesn’t have anything that statistically beats it.

@meurumtrain4747

Жыл бұрын

@@221Prohunter it’s not a boring way to play because most of you casuals/scrubs like to be weak in game and we like to be strong

@Jontohil2

Жыл бұрын

I would actually like to see where you got this from, I tried searching for it and I can't find it

@doltBmB

Жыл бұрын

@@Jontohil2 It's one of his design in depth talks from GDC.

@Jontohil2

Жыл бұрын

@@doltBmB I think I found it, thanks!

As a casual gamer who grew up with video games in the 90's and early 2000's, I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that Esports culture and greed have had a negative impact on gaming for everyone else. Back in the day, gaming was all about fun, camaraderie, and escaping into immersive worlds that allowed us to unwind and share great experiences with friends. But in recent years, it seems like the gaming industry has become more about profit margins and competition than about the joy of playing. Esports, while exciting for some, has brought a level of intensity and pressure to gaming that many of us simply don't want. We used to pick up a controller or sit at the PC to relax and have fun, not to feel like we're in a high-stakes tournament every time we play. Moreover, the greed aspect has become painfully evident. Microtransactions, loot boxes, and pay-to-win mechanics are becoming increasingly prevalent, making it feel like you need to constantly open your wallet just to enjoy a game fully. This goes against the spirit of gaming in the 90s and early 2000s, where you bought a complete game, and any additional content was often a bonus, not a requirement. I miss the days when the gaming industry was more focused on creativity, storytelling, and providing a fantastic experience rather than just maximizing profits. Don't get me wrong; I appreciate that the industry needs to make money, but it's disheartening to see the pursuit of profit come at the expense of the casual gamers who built this industry in the first place. Let's hope that game developers and publishers can strike a better balance between competitiveness and the simple joy of gaming, ensuring that the culture of gaming is enjoyable and accessible for everyone, just like it used to be.

@suntzu6122

6 ай бұрын

Play single player s m h

You're right they should stop listening to pros. But I think we can go further than that. They should stop listening to streamers and youtubers too.

@Burning_Marshmallow

5 ай бұрын

I think that’s a bit too far, most streamers/yourubers aren’t playing games competitively enough to hurt games with their game ideas. /sorry for the longer comment in advance: Plus not all content creators are tied to playing games, which means they are more likely to be casual players, and are thereby part of the larger playerbase. However, I can agree that some of them shouldn’t be listened to as they can cause more harm to games than good, but that can just be any person. So in my opinion it should just stick to ignoring most of the pro’s ideals for game balancing, and companies should listen to the player base they care about most (while sometimes the important player base is the professionals, the goal shouldn’t be about satisfying pro’s because their pro’s, but because it makes the game better which can then indirectly satisfy pro’s. If the pro’s aren’t happy because it doesn’t make them “play” better, then you should just ignore them).

@Wyk_

4 ай бұрын

@@Burning_Marshmallow most of pros complains are about things that they cant deal just with their skill, (no real but are always dumb things like that) average pro complaint: "huh these shotguns are too op and require no skill to use, they kill snipers too easyly in shorter ranges"

@sanicinapanic4264

Ай бұрын

Far to black and white youtubers and streamers bring players they are the advertisement not listing to them is dangerous because if a viewer sees something they don't like and a youtube makes note of that the devs could analazy that what really needs to happen is Devs need to get better at deciding what changes are good and bad

@dani.2479

28 күн бұрын

@@Burning_Marshmallow You my sir have to be the dumbest man i have ever seen in my 15 years of life. And i live in romania so that is saying something. It is not a bit far because most streamers or youtubers are going to be tryhards or pros. optimize your ads time and recoil instead of optimizing the amount of fun you get ingame for picking something else, tech this, tech that how about some of you go down the skill tree and get a few upgrades into something named "fun". I am not saying all youtubers are going to be people who play competitively and try to win at all costs. because that would be a lie, most of them will, but not all of them will. TL:DR: i think your opinion sucks ass.

i am SO GLAD someone brought up the lack of campaigns in a lot of modern FPS games. If i'm gonna pay 60+ dollars for a new game, it better damn well have something i can do on my own, especially when all the major consoles require you to pay EXTRA just to use the online features of a game you already own.

@NoahGooder

Жыл бұрын

I agree with this as well since not only do i have trouble affording those online features. But if i do play online im usually kicked out due to horrible ping. (300ms to 1sec regularly)

@mobbs6426

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but games are getting unavoidably more expensive dontcha know It's not like we have dedicated engines, a much wider supply of workers, decades of existing assets and code, a unified design language that didn't exist 15 years ago. How an we possibly keep costs down in today's age

@imaginatics

Жыл бұрын

@@mobbs6426 this isn't the complete argument here. If the game is getting expensive, then there should be a complementary amount of content within. FPS games (especially on new generation consoles) shouldn't charge $70-60 only to have something either solely or essentially focused on online matchmaking, which will have an additional payment to do for online access on the console.

@yeetus_reetus_deeleetus

Жыл бұрын

@@imaginatics i think his sarcasm was pretty well done

@imaginatics

Жыл бұрын

@@yeetus_reetus_deeleetus Now that I read it again, you're right, I suppose I was too focused on the text haha, my bad

Finally someone who's speaking about this. I'm so tired of big pro players and/or streamers acting as if they're carrying an entire playerbase on their shoulders whenever they speak their minds about the games they play, as if everyone sent them as their ambassador. And devs acting like that's the case is not helping either.

@SirBlckBerry

9 ай бұрын

This is what turned me off from Fortnite. The devs are catering to the big streamers/pro players, while leaving the casual gamers(who just want to play for fun) on the back burner. Matchmaking is screwed up now, cheaters running rampant, etc.

@aquilschutte

9 ай бұрын

​@@SirBlckBerryAnd its not like the pro's only win, if they lose they call it a bad game and complain, its so annoying

@camilasuemi6850

8 ай бұрын

Don't blame the devs, please. These AAA companies just want to make big bucks and just listen to content creators and pros. The devs just make what they're told to.I'm glad i'm a dev from a smaller company, so we try our best to make what is reasonable to our consumers, doesn't cost us much and is "friendly" to our software environment. But the bigger the company, lower the dev's power to say or do something.

@giogio4222

8 ай бұрын

@@camilasuemi6850 When I say "the devs" I mean like the people responsible for a game's production such as CEOs and Managers. It definitely is not the actual developers' fault as far as big game companies are concerned of course.

@iamLI3

8 ай бұрын

what pros are doing that?

You touched on individual focus vs. team focus in Halo, and it reminds me of the Battlefield games. I used to play a lot of Bad Company 2. Healing and giving ammo were hugely important, and the objective based modes had placements that made it virtually impossible to be on your own, thanks to exposure and flanking. The vehicles were powerful, and you were incentivized to protect yours and destroy the hostile ones quickly or your team would suffer. Furthermore, the playerbase was aware of this. In Battlefield 1, healing and ammo is typically only thrown out by the player when HE needs it. They switched medics to assault and ammo to support, meaning that a support with LMG can now just give himself infinite ammo rather than seek out another player. The medics play medic because they want to rush with shotguns and heal themselves, not because they want to help their team. You can skip revive even though it doesn't hurry respawn, and everyone does it as a knee-jerk reaction out of dying. The maps are designed in a way that cater to pros and sniper campers. The result is that it sometimes plays more like COD than Battlefield. My friends and I always stuck together in BC2, nowadays you just sprint around.

@famulanrevengeance3044

Ай бұрын

I disagree honestly. It doesn't feel any different when it comes to classes in modern BF games. It's just that people want faster games, and the games are faster and smoother to facilitate that with more movement options. They had reduced ammo and no bandage in BF5, and everyone hated having to hope a teammate would resupply or having to run over to a resupply station buildable. So they changed it. There's no demand for 'attrition' gameplay. Independent play is always going to happen. Even ARMA and Squad has lone wolves because it's an incredibly powerful strategy. Just one guy in the middle of nowhere ambushing you, that's how you get crazy streaks. Just a natural evolution of shooter games. People do the same thing in every single game where you can attack enemies. People just want to rush forward.

@themcfunnel

Ай бұрын

​@famulanrevengeance3044 the thing is in BF1 medics don't have shotguns

@famulanrevengeance3044

Ай бұрын

@@themcfunnel Sure, but who really gives a damn about that? Why shouldn't they have shotties

Reminds me of Due Process, not sure if you guys heard about that game. It was a really interesting PvP tactical shooter with randomly generated maps. It was pretty fun! Until they decided to make it so casual matches was only a waiting lobby for ranked matches. If you queued for a ranked match, you'd be put in a casual match while you waited, instead of being two separate lobbies. The average amount of players being 4.1 now speaks for itself.

As a wise man once said: "it's a good thing you guys aren't designing ultrakill or it would suck"

@alexbaker1569

Жыл бұрын

Hakita my beloved

@FitzIsBetterThanYou

Жыл бұрын

hakita

@justsomepersonyoudontknow8401

Жыл бұрын

whats ultrakill?

@alexbaker1569

Жыл бұрын

@@justsomepersonyoudontknow8401 its a movement shooter currently in early access, think quake but with a faster pace and some elements from the doom reboot and devil may cry, it's an amazing game and I thoroughly reccomend it, especially considering that there is a free demo on steam

@Chr0matic777

Жыл бұрын

​@@justsomepersonyoudontknow8401 It's an extremely fun skill-based movement shooter think Get To The Orange Door/DOOM Eternal, and then take all limitations away I'm sure there's a review that talks about it better than I ever could, but I highly recommend taking a look at it.

Checkmate pros: If you hate rng so much, why do you like battle royales a lot?

@Shoegaze-

Жыл бұрын

They don’t want to lose an engagement to something dumb like bloom but they like how every match is different in battle Royales

@happyjohn354

Жыл бұрын

@@Shoegaze- Ah so they prefer top lose by not being able to find a weapon at the start instead?

@mrosskne

Жыл бұрын

They don't.

@terrelldurocher3330

Жыл бұрын

@@mrosskne by logic of gamers and even the human mind not one likes fortnite, warzone, and apex. They like to think they like it.

@stuglife5514

Жыл бұрын

Even then, BRs USED to be fun. Anyone remember when Pubg was an ArmA 3 mod and was actually fun? Yea....I do....

This is a year old, but I'm one of those people who will say I don't think there is such a thing as a real competitive video game, or an "E-Sport" that can be taken seriously. Part of this is the corporate mentality and the need to produce new product, with each game that get's called an E-sport largely just using that for promotional material. To be a viable e-sport you need to create a game that is popular, long lasting (multi-generationally so, very hard with current GMs), and has a combination of depth and simplicity that anyone can play it to some extent, but only a few people are going to be really, really, good at it. This is important as part of getting interest from spectators is that it helps if they have some experience with and love of the game on a personal level. On top of this the matches need to be both visually appealing, and easily unpredictable enough where they can be exciting for the crowd. There have not yet been any video games that have really met all of these criteria to my knowledge. The problem I have with pro-gamers right now is that their input seems to be based mostly on self promotion and what I see as largely sociopathic behavior. The modifications they want for games typically tend to be things that will simply allow them to dominate easily and even more spectacularly, I don't think I've seen any who really had advice on how to make these things more exciting, have wider appeal, or more competitive. In fact most pro-gamers, as described, have a complete disdain for less skilled players, and really love to chase people out of the game, and see anyone beneath them as just an easy way to rank up. Hence the fascination with "time to kill" as the faster they can kill scrubs the more impressive their rankings.... also let's be honest, whether it's an FPS or MMORPG PVP, the reason why the "high end" players hate skill based match making or any attempt at balance is that most of them just want to look good and feel powerful, they do not want a challenge against equally skilled players because that could lower their rankings. You will notice in your average MMORPG for example, all of the hardcore PVPers resist the idea of pre-made groups and such being forced to fight only other pre-made groups made up of people with similar win/loss ratios because then they couldn't terrorize people or farm benefits, and would risk losing far more often. The same type of thinking seems to apply to everything from FPS games to League Of Legends. I do agree with highly skilled players that you don't want to make games too scrub-friendly because then you wind up with a game where luck, not skill, begins to matter more than anything, but I do agree they tend to be some of the last people that they need to listen to. As a general rule if we were to ever see E-sports come close to it's potential in the end it's not going to be sold by a bunch of "pros" steamrolling everyone and grandstanding, it's going to be based off of consistently producing very close matches and unpredictable results in a game anyone can see themselves playing. Perhaps with the next phase of technology we'll see someting like proper professional gaming, but right now, for the rest of web 2.0, I just don't think it will happen. That said I think this era might be ending sooner than most realize.

The basic problem with competitive/hardcore players is quite simple; they forgot that they're playing a game, and that games are supposed to be fun.... Instead they treat games like something that needs to be achieved for some greater goal or that brings great honour/prestige, but doesn't have to be enjoyable in any way. In fact, the expectation is that at least some of it will definitly suck. You will have to put up with some kinda janky mechanics or other nonsense. How else would they weed out the noobs? So it shouldn't be a surprise that when you design specificly for such a group, the endresult isn't particularly fun.... It also results in a constant stream of absurd balance updates where things get changed in utterly meaningless ways in order to please the gods of win-rate. Marginal buffs and debuffs which don't meaningfully impact moment to moment gameplay and individual players are unlikely to ever notice them. But they will affect things on a statistical level over 100's of games and thus "fix" the winrate.

Most people don't actually know what they want so listening to the community doesn't works most of the time. Devs should focus on their original vision and only take the community opinion as suggestions.

@gabethebabe3337

Жыл бұрын

The problem is 343's original vision was Halo 4 and that was a step in the wrong direction. If they wanted to make a Halo game they should make a HALO game.

@ha-kh7ef

Жыл бұрын

@@gabethebabe3337 i mean it was a Halo game you just don't like it.

@human_npc

Жыл бұрын

Maybe they should listen for infinite, they've gone their own route and it's flopped

@proxywolf2006

Жыл бұрын

@@human_npc yeah but for different reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with community suggestions

@minmaxVD

Жыл бұрын

@@human_npc They had a great launch. Just nothing to follow it up and 0 experience on handling F2P game doesn't help either.

I miss when games like cod were just fun and chill to play with friends or even apex at launch when everyone was just trying everything out and having a blast

@dyingstar24

Жыл бұрын

Like stacking octanes jump pads?

@door_productions4896

Жыл бұрын

Even as early as black ops 2 I vaguely recall pro players complaining about snipers and them getting changed to fit their demands

@meurumtrain4747

Жыл бұрын

@@door_productions4896 and what change was that? Bruh most in cod hate snipers being op. The sniper community is small compared to the majority of AR & SMG players

@cantflyforshit

Жыл бұрын

Maaan, I WISH I was able to play Apex way back in the day when it launched, despite me not vibing much with the original roster. I really dislike how sweaty it has gotten.

@door_productions4896

Жыл бұрын

@@meurumtrain4747 I don't remember exactly, pretty sure they wanted the ballista to be able to ADS faster

8:15 - AMAZING take, because it's so right and people miss it completely. Some of the most popular competitive games of all time are either completely casual arcade/adventure games, party games, completely broken and unbalanced, unrefined, or all of the above (smash (ESPECIALLY MELEE), older fighting games like tekken, street fighter, etc, minecraft as you pointed out, FORTNITE became competitive with custom box matches players set up for 1v1s - yknow, the exact opposite of how the game works... The esport formula isn't set in stone, and the amount of companies producing the same fkn games just because another one got popular as an esport is annoying. Yes, these often work (like Apex, Valorant, counters to games like hearthstone, dota, starcraft, etc.) but at the end of the day, that's more because of having a huge dev backing, tons of advertisement and support, and a community and developer set on making the game competitive from before the first alpha drops. Nowadays, streamers and pro players will roam to whatever the new fps is, complain about balancing, play it until views go down, then return to react content. The games don't exist to be fun, they exist to be a seasonal competitive kick. You can tell based on the ACTUAL COMPETITIVE SCENE. While scenes like fighting games, minecraft tournaments, smash, league, etc. continue going strong, Overwatch league just died, and countless other "esports" titles lose their entire playerbase the second a new game comes out and takes the streamers attention. Some of the biggest comp games have come from devs that DIRECTLY DISLIKE THE COMPETITIVE SCENE (as annoying as it is on nintendo's part)

Rainbow Six Siege is a good example of why listening to the pros will just make the general player base loose interest and uninstall the game. It happened to me and many of my friends back in 2019.

It's also worth noting that real-world sports are subject to randomness/unpredictability by virtue of, you know, physics and human imperfection: You could sprain your leg, the weather could suck, the field isn't as nicely maintained, etc. To me, skill is far less about rote memorization of systems than it is being the best at adapting to changing circumstances. That's the basis of survival, after all.

@Alexs23743

10 ай бұрын

I think you just explained how a user named "TierZoo" exists on KZread.

@shard2109

10 ай бұрын

The rules for those sports were also made A very long time ago

@J.Wolf90

10 ай бұрын

Real sports have real athletes that train for years. They deserve the money they get. Videogame sports are nothing but skinny and fat couch potatoes I would never pay a dime nor should youtube or any social media platform. Put down the games and get a real job play a real sport

@ecogreen123

10 ай бұрын

agreed.

@VRNocturne

10 ай бұрын

well in terms of real-world sports...skill is also the ability to even execute the mechanics of the sport well enough to be at that level. You can adapt all you want to what's happening, but if you don't have to ability to act on that information, you're not going to make it. The basis of survival is adaptability AND execution.

Its been documented how pro play killed overwatch, The devs always had a firm grasp on the meta of the game. Every single time a new trick was discovered that did not adhere to the meta they were trying to create it would be patched out. Being able to fling yourself from spawn to the objective as Genji was patched because they wanted to make support characters and Tanks the highlight up until people got sick of it and created segregated match matchmaking. The pros killed the game for the average player and its no surprise the massive playerbase dwindled out

@darkcat6530

Жыл бұрын

tbh genji flinging himself to the objective does sound pretty op lol

@jolenearnold6716

Жыл бұрын

The issue wasn't just 'listening to pros' it was how they went about it, they didn't change what was too strong, they added hero's that countered the entire meta. Along with the the existence of brig absolutely destroyed the game with how overpowered she was and still is in the game and is still game breaking after like 16 nerf. Listening to pros is usually a good idea due to the fact they often have a shared idea of what is wrong with the game and ways to fix it, Devs should most definitely look at this but they shouldn't stay glued to it

@adeeshadeegala5900

Жыл бұрын

@@EggEnjoyer open q was pretty bad. Goats was just cancer. Brig made it worse. Lack of updates was what properly killed the game.

@androidthebott

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Part of the reason old games were so fun is because of that random factor. Finding unique uses for certain characters that weren't planned is an unmatched good feeling.

@MidwayWuzzupman

Жыл бұрын

Overwatch wasn't killed so much because they just listened to the pros; the pros hated goat comp and casuals hated goat comp, but it was so strong that Blizzard had no idea how to nerf it without restrictions that weren't fun for the end user (such as role limits). Successful competitive games didn't stay around because they were balanced. Look at Marvel vs Capcom 2, Smash Bros Melee, Dragonball Fighterz, and (like mentioned in the video) Fortnite. They all feel good and fun to play at a casual level.

3:10 the handicap image is 10/10 lol

Here's what I'm gonna say about balance in regards to FPS games specifically: Randomness (especially in things like Spread) in fact _increases_ the potential skill gap, it doesn't decrease it at least in good implementations Weapon spread objectively makes shooters more skillful and improves the amount of actual variety in what the game can do Sounds completely wrong doesn't it? Well let's put it this way, as mentioned in the video, a shooter without spread or recoil would essentially become a multiplayer aim trainer rather than an actual game. We already sort of agree that recoil is essentially necessary for a shooter to not just be about pure aim, but why spread? We hate randomness, why would we want some of it in aspects like especially the guns you're actually using? Let's look at a game that takes this approach to their design, rainbow six siege, with the exception of shotguns, every ranged weapon in the game has 0 spread when aimed down sights, what consequences does this have for the gun balance in that game? Well... SMGs and Rifles are essentially identical in terms of how they're used. Yes, rifles technically have more damage on average and have longer range before dropping off, but given that headshots always kill in one hit (unless it's a shotgun pellet) and especially since the typical range of engagement in that game is 9 meters, there's effectively no difference between SMGs and Rifles other than arbitrary number changes for the sake of "realism" For the record, SMGs start dropping damage at 11 meters and further in siege, so every gun is effectively doing their max damage output in 95% of engagements in that game. So how would we go about actually differentiating SMGs and Rifles? Well, spread when aimed, it sounds cringe to a lot of people I imagine, but it's the truth, and it's not like it actually reduces skill, it just substantially lowers effectiveness of a weapon when it's being used outside of its intended ranges. Siege has had an issue of "Spawn Peeking" (Defenders peeking out of the windows of buildings and shooting attackers while they're still walking to the building) and an absolutely huge part of the issue is that despite Defenders (typically) using SMGs and Attackers (typically) using Rifles, Defenders still have pinpoint perfect accuracy while aimed down sights and can easily get headshots on enemies from the tops of buildings. If you give a spread range on SMGs when aimed in that gives them an "effective range" of something like 11ish meters, what that entails is simply making first shot spread hit 100% of the time on a dinnerplate at a particular distance. To explain this with a better visual, in Siege you have a crosshair when you're not aimed down your sights, that crosshair is a direct indication of your spread at hipfire, if that crosshair's circle is filled 100% with _something_ you're looking to shoot, then you will hit that target 100% of the time The same can be applied to when aiming down sights, it's not out of the question to maybe show the player a crosshair on top of their aimed reticle as a way to show what the spread of their shots are going to be (Apex Legends does this with at least two of its weapons using a certain hop-up) and if that aimed-in spread... for example is filled entirely by a head hitbox, because you're within your weapon's "effective range" then you will hit that headshot 100% of the time The point of spread is _specifically_ to reduce consistency at ranges that are not intended for a weapon and to force players to use other systems of the game to compensate. This is outright, giving better genuine _players_ of the _game_ more room to express that skill. Being good at a shooter shouldn't _only_ be about aim skill, it should be about movement, however limited or however free that movement might be, it should be about mind games and messing with people, it should be about good positioning, as well as knowing your optimal ranges or employing strategies to lower your spread like tapping the trigger or crouching. There's a reason Battlefield 4 and 1 are such genuinely great games, and it's _because_ they implemented Spread while aimed, and a system called "Spread Increase Per Shot" to try and further de-emphasize things like mag-dumping, because it turns out a lot of people don't really like the spammy nature of just holding down the trigger and getting kills. CS:GO also has weapon spread and spread increase per shot, and given it's one of _the_ most consistently watched competitive shooters still to this day, I think it's worth giving it credit for genuinely having good systems for skill expression and an actual meaningful skill gap.

Been playing a lot of Apex in the past 4 or so months and i absolutely despise how Respawn just agrees on whatever stupid idea the 0.1% of players have. I hate what game developers do to competetive or casual games today, creating changes that simply cater to the 'professionals' and completely forgetting/not caring about players that just play the game casually for fun. It's actually ruining certain games and removing the fun and enjoyment.

@Spubbily01

Жыл бұрын

Day one apex player. I swapped to Fortnite because it's much more fun for me. The devs aren't simps for pro players, I know because they removed building, and that's what make it fun.

@deriznohappehquite

Жыл бұрын

@@Spubbily01 I’m just playing Halo 3 custom games

@unknownwill4th549

Жыл бұрын

@@Spubbily01 funny since comp players have been leaving fortnite this chapter lmao

@kmsskillersxx3339

Жыл бұрын

Play war thunder it gets worse

@Shoegaze-

Жыл бұрын

Some changes made for casual players ruin games too lol

It’s one thing to understand that you’re probably a better chef than the people who eat your food. It’s another when everyone tells you the chef that your food is terrible and used to be better, and you just ignore them.

@ZeroKitsune

Жыл бұрын

This really summarizes the point really well, honestly. It's the old advice of "players are great at identifying problems with your game...but they're not good at coming up with good solutions."

@theolympiyn8670

10 ай бұрын

@@ZeroKitsuneand if they’re pro players. They notice problems that don’t matter to others. And only help them

@DaisiesTC

10 ай бұрын

@@theolympiyn8670 Nah the majority of problems pro players point out affect everyone to varying degrees. They might not give good solutions to those problems, but its not hard to point them out.

@dwarf9938

9 ай бұрын

​@@DaisiesTClaughs in CS:GO

@DaisiesTC

9 ай бұрын

@@dwarf9938 not sure what your point is lol

These "pros/streamers" are ruining gaming... period. Its just that simple.

While I do agree that the developers shouldn't exclusively to pro/tourney players. They certainly have a better *overall* idea about the game. I think the best example of this is Flats from Overwatch or Otzstarva from Dead By Daylight. I say they should listen to players that are pretty much ambassadors for the game as a whole. And usually, top players do kinda have a better idea of whats going on. And besides, this new wave of whining casuals about nerfs it starting to get really bad because in Helldivers 2, one *TINY* nerf to the railgun and they were crying like someone ate their favorite juice. All it did was made you turn on Unsafe mode and wait two seconds longer. And in the end, we got another update that give us more armor busting and the armored bugs are more spread out instead of popping out of every bug hole-as that was the *real* issue. Do I agree the railgun should had gotten nerfed? Not in the way it did, but in the end it was needed because PLAYERS WERE KICKING OTHERS OUT JUST FOR NOT RUNNING THE WEAPON. And these guys wouldn't even be top level-it would really be other casual players enforcing meta. What I want is them to kill meta and we'd all have way more fun. That's it. More buffs, less nerfs-I do agree with that statement, we've been in nerf hell for too long as a response (except for outliers that really deserve it), but buff other weapons, other characters. Dark Souls 2 quite literally has almost no meta. You can do well with just about any weapon so long as you know what you're doing-and it absolutely rocks for it. Unlike in DS3 where it's all curved swords and running away with magic balls.

The thing with player feedback in general is that players are immediately able to tell that something is off, but are horrible at pinpointing exactly where the problems are

@migueeeelet

Жыл бұрын

Which is why you listen to many players, and not to just a few pros. The more opinions the easier it should be to find where the issue is. You can always run a poll too.

@Navajonkee

Жыл бұрын

@@migueeeelet The words of a million laymen are still the words of a layman. Most players don't know the first thing about game design, balancing, etc. They know if a game feels bad, but that's the extent of it. No matter how many you ask, they won't be able to provide an answer. They can only tell you the problem.

@andrek6920

Жыл бұрын

@@Navajonkee I disagree, heavily. A million laymen will include a lot of different people, plenty of whom will have relevant professions or hobbies to the question at hand, not to mention that playing that very game is a relevant hobby. There are plenty of very insightful players whos ideas likely could make games better, perhaps only in one minor aspect, perhaps in a more major fashion, but better. The difficulty comes from finding the actually good ideas among the playerbase, something for which there doesnt tend to be anywhere near enough man hours for. But the ideas exist.

@Navajonkee

Жыл бұрын

@@andrek6920 "A million laymen will include..." It doesn't matter what it *includes*. The majority vote will not be professionally relevant, and the stray educated criticism will be lost in among the mass opinion.

@TidusleFlemard

Жыл бұрын

An example for +tabnk2 comment, from a game I don't remember the name of sadly: - In a ww2 fps game beta, one smg (the german one) was thought to better by the players than the other nation one (usa). They both had the same dps and devs initially were dumbfounded when the usa team players asked for the german one to be nerfed. Further studies found the issue: The sound of firing them made the german one seems to have more oumph. A bit of sound balancing and all players were happy, some player even though that the nerf occurred while it was just a matter of sound.

I've felt abandoned by game devs for years as someone that cares about story first, game play second and finally multiplayer leading "art and graphics".

@muhammadzulkarnaen4229

4 ай бұрын

I would think that's an unpopular perspective, people usually play games for the gameplay. Usually, if the gameplay is fun they will play it, story second graphics fidelity second. The reason games nowadays push for multiplayer is because they want to keep selling you something, there will be incentives if the thing they sell holds value and how they create value for that is to make it embedded in social interaction. You will be more eager to buy in-game items purchases if you can show off or gain an advantage with your purchased items.

@NoirMorter

4 ай бұрын

@@muhammadzulkarnaen4229 I agree and disagree with you. Story is central to world building in a video game which is done by graphics and game play systems. Many don't think about it as they play I give you that, however a bad story does negatively effect a game. Games like Journey is telling a story. It's similar to the Souls franchise, including Elden Ring, but does it with a different approach. The primary reason I got into gaming is social interaction and you have great points with that! However the game and its community does not benefit from the current systems in place.

@WheezyLex

4 ай бұрын

I’m just watching this about a year behind its release and I agree with this sentiment big time. I’m super bummed to hear that the Marathon reboot will be multiplayer only because I won’t play it. I barely played Destiny and refuse to again because it’s all online. That’s just not as much fun for me.

@CatgirlExplise6039

Ай бұрын

Personally, I care about the pvp first in games, but I still feel somewhat similar, I want a game with unique and fun mechanics, nothing more, but it seems like devs try to make their game toxic

@JamesSchulte

Ай бұрын

I heavily disagree with the idea of a good story being more important to a game than good gameplay Edit: Didn't realize it was mainly your opinion, sorry

I agree with most of this however the match making Is the only part I'd like to refute, because pros don't hate matchmaking because it makes the game but because it makes the game feel unfair, firstly it's def not sbmm cause no way the skill ceiling changing that drastically from 2 games when u have hundreds secondly the match making is bs at times and I can give 2 examples from my experiences. Firstly apex, in apex it feels more like the mm affects the enemies more than my allies cause it feels like it's giving me bots whilst the enemies are triple stacking preds and I'm sure if it's someone actually new to the game they feel the same way being in these lobbies, secondly cod, they only care about match making so it feels like u wait minutes for a single match and it's a 200 ping lobby when just 1 game ago it was a 80 ping lobby as well as it being proven(as far as I've been told) that ur skill actually affects the damage ur gun deals and the volume of ur footsteps.

I say that to counter something in a game, it should take a similar amount of skill as what it is countering. It depends obviously, but if you can just swing over and over and over, I should just be able to hold my block button and stop your button mashing entirely until you start actually mixing it up. it's not about designing a game to take skill, it's about encouraging better playing from everyone. Pro players will say things just to benefit themselves, while me as just a gamer wanting to make it fun and fair for everyone. I can recognize that not everyone has put in the time I have to work on my 'gaming skill'. playing a bunch of different games and getting good with them, so when new games role around I have muscle memory for all these different games that bleeds through. I recognize what makes a good and bad combat system. I can see it's strengths and faults. Something pros should be able to do if they cared about the game itself, not just how the game can benefit them. that is a huge problem I noticed years and years ago. people will bitch and whine about things that are balanced just because they refuse to understand them, then they get nerfed into uselessness. Jackal in Rainbow 6 Siege (Dokeabi is just the better Jackal in everyway), bleed in Dark Souls 3 pvp (yet UGS-GS are still stupid op), Spy's kits in TF2, are three I can think of off the top of my head.

@uligallardo8110

5 күн бұрын

I can't believe you didn't mention Justice Bison.

@kalypso4133

5 күн бұрын

@@uligallardo8110 what or who is justice bison? Never heard the term.

Im really happy that other people are annoyed that devs listen to pros and streamers more than the majority of the community. I stopped playing FPS games as much because everything is so sweaty

@marcushoglund5893

Жыл бұрын

You should never listen to your average silver player who dosent understand the gamw

@AxTROUSRxMISSLE

Жыл бұрын

@@marcushoglund5893 yeah don't listen to the 99% of players, listen to the 1% who do it for a job and what would personally benefit them

@GregorianMG

Жыл бұрын

@@marcushoglund5893 Yeah like those casual player who is actually the majority of the player base useless for the game... Yeah the game died when that happen.

@VonSnuggles1412

Жыл бұрын

@@marcushoglund5893 oh so if i have 500 hours in the game, been playing since day one, am active in that games community, and love the game my entire opinion is invalid because "durr hurr, stupid low rank silver player means bad, you don't know what you're talking about" That mentality is why games like overwatch died out so fast

@marcushoglund5893

Жыл бұрын

@@VonSnuggles1412 yet league is going strong and balances with that mentality. And you dont sound like your average silver player tho. But your average player is dumb as fuck and you should never listen to them. They call out that shit is op or up because they cant use it properly

I remember when a COD zombies youtuber said the game should have a larger player count and he able to kill other players so it's competitive. Keep in mind this is a gamemode where you are working together against the hordes of zombies. Who the hell wants to fight other players? PS ik greif was a a thing but that was an extra gamemode and this guy was talking about the core experience

@skebapplejefferiso308

9 ай бұрын

Bro at that point just play multiplayer smh

@cityguard4847

9 ай бұрын

Who was it, gotta to clown on em

@Bingbumble

9 ай бұрын

him when he finds out multiplayer: 😱😱😱

@ericshun3926

8 ай бұрын

Smartest COD player

@sinistertrucker

8 ай бұрын

Literally The Division. Spec ops agents killing each other for their loot just because they know they're the most lethal force. 😂

I typically when chosing a game to play is ask myself "Is this game fun because its good or is it fun because *I* am good?" if the game's source of entertainment relies too much on the player being good at the game or has the drive to get better then honestly it isnt that good. Unless that same game can cater to those who arent good but still seek a fun time then its a good game because such a large amount of people can enjoy it in various ways. But if that game is designed soley based on those who can enjoy the game because they are so good then its going to essentially gatekeep itself with the skill requirement. It can be difficult in games like fighting games or more intensive fps for example. The skill you need just to enioy the game on a basic level can push many people away from continuing to play and can bottleneck the player count and potentially kill the game faster. If pros get their hands on the development of games then this is going to make encountering that problem so much easier and thus could potentially kill the game much faster than if the pros simply didnt add their imput. Unless those very pros are able to take the casuals into consideration theres going to be massive problems with retaining a decent player count

Rainbow six siege us a perfect example of devs favoring E-sports too much. At first, the game was meant to be a slow, tactical SWAT game, like the actual SWAT series of games. ...but nowdays? It's a rainbow mess of battlepass skins and a literal sport arena as a map. Every update, every new character became more and more detatched from reality. They started off with simple devices. One guy had a big shield. The other had a simple grenade launcher. And they stayed grounded for a while, with bear traps and such. ..but slowly the sci-fi crept in. Cloaked hover drones. Lazer walls deployed by an amputee. Batman-esque grappling hooks. Bullet proof, insta cure foam walls that cometely block the objective.

I can say it simply: Pro players aren't "THE" community, they are PART of the community. And when you build an experience to target a specific sub-group, you shouldn't be surprised when only that specific sub-group wants to experience it.

@flamestoyershadowkill6400

Жыл бұрын

a part is not the whole.

@amanawolf9166

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. It'd like taking, imho, a game meant for exploration and such like Skyrim and having it cater to speed runners, tailoring every aspect to them. This is just me, but I believe a game should focus on itself, first and foremost. What is the game? What does it convey to the player? What is the story? Above all else, games need to engage the player. Skyrim felt awesome because of the expansive world, a somewhat okay story, and the sense of adventure it conveyed to the player. After the cave scene and the encounter with the first dragon, the player is given control of their own destiny. Imagine how crappy the game would have felt if all other quests were locked off until you progressed 70% the way through a linear story. Doesn't sound great, right. The problem can also be compounded when a game tries to do too many things at once; at least, that's my sense and feelings towards FO4. The game's story didn't drag me in, nor did the world feel like an adventure. Base building had a niche charm to it, but many parts lacked that special unique sense of wonder. Heck, by the third, fourth, or fifth base... sorry, "settlement," I kinda gave up. If we had one settlement, maybe two at most with them being really, REALLY fleshed out, things could have been awesome.

@migueeeelet

Жыл бұрын

And the worst part is that by targetting one sub-group you're not guaranteeing anything. They could still dislike it.

@Sos_tenuto

Жыл бұрын

Not only "part," they are absolute minority

@twelvevoltage

Жыл бұрын

@@Sos_tenuto I mean yeah but it also depends on the game for example fighting games almost always tend to be more competitive even if they are casual players but I agree still

The real problem with modern matchmaking is not that the skill grouping is too tight. The real problem is what's known as "forced 50", something developers completely do not and probably do not want to, understand. They say "ah but if you have 50% win rate then matchmaking is working". But there is a difference between having a 50% winrate because you had a variety of interesting matches that challenged you in different ways, and the actual reality, which is that you get alternated between carrying a team of babies against a stack of terminator like pros, and being carried by that same team of terminators against a team of babies. You get alternated between matches you cannot win and matches you cannot lose. This is why "SBMM" sucks now. It happens because the tuning of the skill estimator is wrong, like a spring that's too weak for the load it's supposed to dampen. One victory propels your skill to astronomic heights, and one loss sends it plummeting, so it always bounces wildly around your real skill level, but never settles. It's important to realize that the major modification Halo 3 made to TrueSkill was to relax exactly this phenomenon, it took longer to react to wins and losses, making it more stable, and more likely to have time to settle. You can read up on PID control to see a real world example of how badly tuned control algorithms can lead to these kinds of problems. Now why do developers not want to hear this? Probably it's because if you are able to categorize a match that a player is having into a clear "win" or "lose" match, rather than something more unpredictable and varied, then you can use that to drive Engagement Optimized Matchmaking. Where the system dripfeeds you wins on purpose to keep you playing and make you more likely to spend money on a cash shop or battle pass. Matchmaking for fun is not a priority anymore, and being able to control whether you win or lose with this kind of pendulum matchmaking means that you can be manipulated more easily by EOMM. So you get the wilful ignorance and canned responses about 50% winrate being "ideal".

@Ashamedofmypast

Жыл бұрын

Interesting when you consider the progression actively discourages most elements of that design method. Nutty.

@luisfuentes3846

Жыл бұрын

Yeah you need to check out how they programmed the SBMM with TrueSkill2 all of your points are pretty much spot on.

@bannedmann4469

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, he got this totally wrong. SBMM is crap. This on top of some games not having dedicated servers like Destiny 2 he showed. Also they hide these stats from the players.

@bannedmann4469

Жыл бұрын

@@luisfuentes3846 We need transparency on exactly what's happening under the hood in our games. Other industries aren't allowed to hide what they're selli g and changing this much.

@omppusolttu5799

Жыл бұрын

@@EggEnjoyer This is kinda the nature of anything when it becomes massive and the motivation goes from just making really fucking good games to getting as much money as possible. Trust me, indie games have a lot of good shit *and* they are cheaper.

I used to play an ink-based shooter game that has an ok-ish competitive community but my god how they influenced how a special attack worked despite it was easily avoidable and killable before it got nerfed. It kind of made me mad on how the developers were listening to that community instead of focusing on main weapons, sub weapons and other special weapons with obvious problems. But they keep listening to the comp community who keep shouting about a weapon that doesn’t actually need a change and it feels depriving every major and minor update.

@HeDronHeDronHedron

8 ай бұрын

Splatoon? Im gonna guess youre referring to missles, in which case No that nerf was absolutely deserved, you could spam an infinite range locating displacement special. Listening to the comp community made brellas viable, made blasters viable, and nerfed splash

@TroopaKoopaReal

6 ай бұрын

Not missiles, another special.

@HeDronHeDronHedron

6 ай бұрын

@@TroopaKoopaReal ink armor?

@HeDronHeDronHedron

6 ай бұрын

@@TroopaKoopaReal if youre talking about the inkjet nerf it wasnt horrible like missles design wise but it was definitely a bit overtuned, skilled inkjets would be able to just spam large projectiles

MWII tried to appeal to a more casual audience, look how that went.

@samgaming3354

8 ай бұрын

yea thats always the issue with cod even the better ones. WWII and mw19 multiplayer were the only 2 I liked like that but they were still either incapable of balancing the guns/gunsmith, or don't intentionally to appeal to casuals. and mwIIs netcode is so bad I cant even play it, they're too focused on pumping out skins, dlc and another mw game back to back... still think mwII is one of the less casual cods though, at least the core movement mechanics. seems to be most cod fans issue with it. take it with a grain of salt though I haven't played since before the movement buffs.

@lieutenanteclipse9975

2 ай бұрын

It was fine. I think adding fucking Nicki Minaj is where is starts to go weird. I just play for the guns and having a fucking pink blob in the middle of my battlefield is really immersion breaking.

Players are generally quite good at identifying problems and horrible at suggesting solutions. It is definitely important if your competitive dedicated tryhards have a problem - but it is up to you to either solve it or not in a way that fits the overall design.

@EplusNis4ever

Жыл бұрын

r6 players have been great at suggesting solutions, devs just dont listen

@Chicky_Lumps

Жыл бұрын

I generally agree, most players are decent at identifying large balance problems, but most aren't creative enough to propose a solution that's both balanced and fun.

@ArmorFN

Жыл бұрын

Idk I think it's kind of fun to try and come up with ways to fix small problems in games. I've come up with a few possible solutions for problems in games that I'd like to at least see attempted. I remember back a couple of years ago I was complaining about how I wished there was an option to disable pre-edits in fortnite because as a high ping player it's easy to press the edit button faster then your builds place. To my surprise a few months later fortnite actually added the feature and it's so much better now. I think because I have had this line of thought before I can understand the players who are able to identify these issues. Sure a lot of the time the players can't exactly identify how to fix the problem, but it's the times when they do find a solution that makes it worth listening to their ideas at least.

@ZeroKitsune

Жыл бұрын

@@ArmorFN Eh what people come up with is always hit or miss. Of course it's possible that fans deeply understand a game and its design philosophy and come up with something genuinely cool. That doesn't happen very often, though. At some point I realized that a lot of the people who scream the loudest don't even want the game to be good or fun for anyone who isn't them. They literally just want everyone to have to play exactly the way they do.

@vidzrswow

Жыл бұрын

​@@ZeroKitsune TBH It's double sided. I think it's bad if a game dev accepts or worse prides themselves being bad at games. A dev needs passion and if they don't they need a team that does and willing to listen. It's the job of a dev to listen to feedback and filter it but if they lack game sense they need someone who does to filter feedback. The dev just needs to make a good solution.

I think you meant to refer to Smash Bros Melee competitive players instead of Brawl. But yeah as a former Smash Tournament Organizer I'd agree with the comparison for the kind of sweat you'll encounter.

@MALICEM12

Жыл бұрын

I thought this as well, Melee and H2 both are exploitable and broken when you know what to do. Both of their competitive scene are built around exploiting the game, not playing it how it was supposed to be played.

@Sonichero151

Жыл бұрын

There's a reason it was a smash Melee tournament where the winner got a fucking dead crab thrown at him because he won........... and this was *BEFORE* the grooming was known

@Twisted_Logic

Жыл бұрын

@@Sonichero151 There were only like one or two Melee platers involved with that, and they were pretty small-time. Ultimate was the community with the big grooming problem

@ewaldgering6459

Жыл бұрын

@@Twisted_Logic exactly. The melee community, compared to the brawl/4/ult community is relatively nice. Youd meet toxicity much rarer

@nok4799

Жыл бұрын

@@Twisted_Logic Okay but they still don't shower

I don't know much about FPS competitive multiplayer, as there's really only a couple I've played before they got completely depopulated, but I have the most fun with them when there's variety to them. I specifically play FPS's with fun gimmicky sci-fi weapons, and I like to try out every loadout and strategy I can, especially when I'm already doing well in a match, since grabbing something I've not yet mastered keeps the match from being too one-sided in my favor. By far the times I had the least fun was when I ran into players that exclusively used the "dominant strategy", the ones who gravitate to the meta loadouts and the one or two weapons with the fastest TTK. It wasn't even about whether I won or lost, my win/loss ratio stayed mostly the same, it was just the same damn match over and over. It's not fun if all you can do is counter pick the same strategy over and over.

Probably a good example of this is dead by daylight, it's meant to be a horror game, but everuone who plays it ends up pissing around because it's only occasionally scary. And, with this being my point, the way the developers make perks and killers and whatnot, is they think of a cool idea for a perk (parry perk that let's you take a hit, parkor perk that rewards you for taking lots of vaults, etc.), balances them out (requires high skill to use and has a cooldown, only works if you can vault once every 6 seconds.) And then release it (dead hard, which dominated the survivor meta for 6 years solid before being nerfed into the ground, and cut loose, which ended up being a niche and mostly useless perk.)

It reminds me of how players, especially in cod, begged for maps to not have “safe spaces”. They wanted maps that were tight, pushed you directly into the action constantly. And with halo infinite, the maps are exactly that and everyone hates them bc you never even get the chance to breathe.

@maxkore278

Жыл бұрын

section 8: prejudice & battlefield series these games offer the best of both worlds by letting you choose your spawn point allowing everyone to play at their own pace, in their own time

@Sl1mch1ckens

Жыл бұрын

Clash royale is a mobile game but has an esports scene ect. They ruined the casual experience once by buffing a card that pros dont use but most casual players have that card in their deck so it become insanely OP and they had to revert it. Balancing a game solely round the top 1% is stupid.

@work90

Жыл бұрын

@@Sl1mch1ckens who would have thought that pro gamers would become the equivalent of the greedy elites

@Leotheleprachaun

Жыл бұрын

​​@@Sl1mch1ckens the ad I got before this was for Clash Royale😂

@krieger8825

Жыл бұрын

It's a battlefield, you'll break bad

As a current dev, I’ve been saying this often. In recent years I’ve actually seen a lot of things cut from studios I’ve worked at and saw backlash WITHIN the studio about changing it only for nothing to change and for there to then be the same backlash from the player base calling us incompetent. To me this is less a dev issue and more a production/executive issue. These people are spending too much time getting online opinion instead of letting us take direct surveyed information from the player base and our own ideas as players. A lot of people I work with are not top players myself included I’m casual and I try to put as much of that into my games as possible with out getting punched down by production. But yeah we hear you I just wish they would too. Been trying to make that statement louder but it’s hard since usually you are just a worker vs making those calls.

@J.Wolf90

10 ай бұрын

Since you're a dev. Can I ask why does gaming feel so cut and paste since ps3 360 days? Even brand new original games are just a rejumbled mix of shit we've already had for years

@robob4465

10 ай бұрын

@@J.Wolf90 Not a dev,but large companies just don't want to take a risk by doing something unique,a game is a large investment and if you're too radical with your ideas it may end up being a flop. That's why small indie games tend to be very varied,they don't have much money at stake and can take a gamble with a never before seen mechanic (and have to,because without an unique quirk they won't stand out among the crowd)

@famvirious

10 ай бұрын

King

@dominiking69

10 ай бұрын

​@@J.Wolf90publishers are cowards and snakes who prioritize profit over culture or quality and so they are incentivised to take no risks by copy and pasting the shit they think works until the concept has been driven to the ground and stomped on. In other words, the over corporatization of the industry has taken priority over art

@BrokensoulRider

9 ай бұрын

@@robob4465There are several indie games that don't have new and cool mechanics, but they do build their worlds around one mechanic and make it extravagant.

In regards to matchmaking ranked is usually a seperate option in multiplayer games so unranked doesnt need the same systems

I remember for the original halo games, Bungie would play their game for days and days before they released it. If they didn't want to play it, they knew it wasn't ready

4:32 the Scout's Scattergun from TF2 is a prime example of a shotgun that is both skillful and fun to use.

@yentamoon1808

Жыл бұрын

Or slug shotguns in destiny 2

@Saved-by-Grace

Жыл бұрын

DOOM super shotgun, the love of my life

@Sockren

Жыл бұрын

i like how these people get mad at shotguns. i get that it may seem annoying to go a corner and get 1 tapped but dont these games have grenades lmao

@jaibadrivishaal5164

Жыл бұрын

BASED

@xanthousizalith5641

Жыл бұрын

Also the Widowmaker and the Family Business and the Panic attack and the Reserve shooter and-

Someone once said to me. Make a game to be fun. If you do that, people will enjoy it and it will grow. The more intricate parts of the game will bring out pro play later.

@conndor2753

Жыл бұрын

They'll become a pro by adapting to the game.

@radioactive5882

Жыл бұрын

@@conndor2753 exactly

@bitronic6706

Жыл бұрын

@@conndor2753 that's literally how cs became as big as it is it was literally just meant to be this small little half life mod about special forces units and was novel for making everyone fragile, people found it fun, then guess what, those same people found out about the intricacies of it's movement, or of it's shooting mechanics, or the metagame that emerged from the simple concept of having an attacking and a defending team, then they said "hey, if i learned some tricks, this game could be even more fun!" now, it's the prime competitive fps game, and way too many devs are trying to replicate the competitive aspect of it, truth is that there's much more to it than that, you're talking about the very same game that also allows for gamemodes like bhop, surf, or even casual fun modes like minigames, jailbreak, etc, it's also the same game that lets you, in that very same competitive mode, to jump with a .338 lapua bolt rifle, and kill two people in mid air, that's an actual thing that happened, and turned into a legendary moment imbedded into it's community. and the funny thing is that you can easily wind up with the same problem while going in the opposite direction that halo went, R6S was a fun game that forced it's players to adapt to each other, and how their environment changed, it asked you "what would you do if you were behind cover, but all of the sudden the wall behind you blew up?" the spectacle factor stemming from those people that answered that question with "i'll just kill everyone who blew up the wall", and actually did, or those that went with an unorthodox genius approach that put them at an advantage. but now it's having an identitiy crisis cause the pros aren't fond of mechanics that show a little bit of variability, and now the game's all about just throwing garbage at each other until someone gets bored and decides to do something different, only to get shot down and end up with the same situation, sure, it's competitive? but it's fucking boring, and makes you miss games like cod, csgo, and even valorant, which despite focusing purely on comp, still has a fun factor since it's took most of it's design philosophy from counter strike. sure, esports is important, it gives you a feedback loop that could theoretically go on forever, but that loop isn't gonna work if you can't replicate the enjoyment from watching the game when you're playing the game.

@jacobyakus8620

Жыл бұрын

That's smart

@mrjohnnyk

Жыл бұрын

Games that appeal to everyone attracts pros. Games that appeal to pros only attracts pros.

I used to play a game that had (for/at it's time) a fairly large PVP element (in a mostly PVE game, obv). It was like...the total opposite of the problem expressed in this video. PVPers (not even like super-high end ones, just people who enjoyed it) would bring up stuff that seemed overpowered, broken, or being exploited, and the devs, if they listened at all, almost never ever fixed or altered anything unless it was for the most egregious of things. And yet...there was this *Orwellian* level of hatred for PVP players, even when a point they were making actually made sense, such as a broken item, overpowered tactic, or exploit, was destroying any sense of balance the game had. It was downright toxic. And these same people, who would complain complain complain about "PVPers ruining our fun" turned around without a hint of irony, complaining about how hard the game was. Eventually the PVPers all quit (myself included) because the game turned into a giant pay-to-win machine, and they could see the writing on the wall, so they moved onto other things. But it was kinda bonkers living through it all. Just the sheer *vitriol* I would get simply for saying I was a PVPer or making suggestions on some overpowered 'thing' that got added to the game, even as the devs didn't listen to anyone at all about anything. Cuz if PVPers really had the power that other players claimed they had, the game would've gone a *massively* different direction.

Fortnite is an amazing example of an approachable game that has a ridiculous skill ceiling. Games not accommodating lower skilled players simply hurts the game in longer term. Interestingly I think that low ttk caters to worse players. From quake onwards TTK went up. CS came along and part of the appeal there was lower TTK, even if players didn't know they wanted it. Good players that were not top tier found success due to having acceptable aim. Worse players found success because the low TTK allowed a few bullets from "lucky" spray to kill another player. Why is shorter possibly better for lesser players? Because in a situation with long TTK, like quake 3, the worse player getting the drop on a better player still loses even if they are lucky and hit opening damage as the better player can react, avoid all their follow up shots and hit shots to kill them. This wasn't the case with the ridiculous quake1 rocket launcher which would just destroy enemies without armor. The argument for higher TTK from competitive players seems to lean towards high ttk giving players more requirement to hit more shots and take more skill. My suspicion is they want this because it allows them to tank that first shot and return fire and use avoidance. Which is also ok, but this could perhaps be in addition to the base setup having faster ttk to accommodate a broader playerbase.

I remember having a comment argument with "pro" youtuber that if you balance a game around mechanical skill only (reaction time, aiming, hearing, eyesight) then what will happen is there will be 1% of players absolutely dominating the other 99%, it will be even more unbalanced than before.

@bruvaroni

Жыл бұрын

That's gonna happen regardless but I understand what you're saying lol

@LegitSav

Жыл бұрын

This is such a bad point, you can put all the randomness in the world and the 1% will destroy the 99%. I agree there should be randomness because strictly skilled based games leads to boring gameplay/boring to watch but you aren't going to help bad players have a more fair chance by introducing randomness.

@bj_cat103

Жыл бұрын

no, it will be balanced, but you will have to learn how to play it for this balance to work for you. It's still much better than it being unbalanced no matter how good you are

@tezwoacz

Жыл бұрын

​@@bj_cat103 you cant "learn" faster reaction time, you cant learn "faster information processing in your brain" you cant learn "faster and more precise hand movements", any game that is balanced around mechanical skill only will be dominated by 12-18 year old kids who won genetic lottery.

@bj_cat103

Жыл бұрын

@@tezwoacz you can "learn" reaction time. If you doing stuff that remands it regularly, it increases. Doing so also prevents you from losing it until you're 45-50 years old. The same goes with the other things you mentioned. Our brain degrades the sections we don't put to use and develops the ones we actively use

Escape from Tarkov had a stream with the main developer and some streamers. The streamers wanted to be able to make more ingame money from selling enemy loot, then they where asked do you care about the ingame money and all of them said no. I was like what is wrong with these streamers?

@nosidenoside2458

Жыл бұрын

It's showmanship idk the twitch drop streams seem neat

@temba92

Жыл бұрын

@@jubbin4849 video called "Streamers & BSG Podcast w Nikita - Escape From Tarkov"

@osterhai

Жыл бұрын

EFT has some real anti grass touching streamers guys like Lvndmark and Pestily and those are the type of streamers that will suggest something to the devs because it would be better for "newer players" which obviously isnt the case most of the time.

@gamer-1100

Жыл бұрын

@@osterhai Pestily makes a series that helps new players every wipe. he cares more about fun then competition.

@Axl-ng1yj

Жыл бұрын

@@osterhai Pestily is an amazing player but he isn't a sweat, if anything every once in a while he does things just for fun and normally only complains when they do something that affects everyone. If anything he's pushed for an easier experience for the new players and he always makes guides and videos for them. Lvndmark on the other hand...

I gave up on multiplayer gaming a long time ago. I’m not trying to be a “pro” or “competitive”. I just want to have fun and unwind. People naturally get better at the games they play, but that doesn’t mean you want to sweat every game. My 1 point whatever K/D looks different than someone else’s. So while I prefer to run around and be creative with how I play, I often found myself in games with people desperately trying to preserve their K/D. Using the same tactics and meta weapons. It’s not fun. You either end up another stat zombie or become annoyed until you just move on.

I think it's also important to note the type of game... in a game like Counter Strike, you absolutely need to listen to competitive & pro players, they're your core audience. While a game like Halo or Call of Duty can afford to listen to the more casual audience.

I think listening too much to competitive players probably ruined Gears 5 pvp.

@requiemagent3014

Жыл бұрын

Gears only exist for Horde. PvP should strictly be ignored. It says a lot that Cliffy B wanted to remove the Gnasher for Gears 3. He hated Gears PvP with a passion and The Coalition just don't get it

@cheesenibbla8339

Жыл бұрын

@@requiemagent3014 why does one persons opinion warrant removing an entire game mode from the product? Kind of stupid

@requiemagent3014

Жыл бұрын

@@cheesenibbla8339 Do you even know who Cliffy B is? Apparently not or else you wouldn't talk shit like this

@vaudou_

Жыл бұрын

@@requiemagent3014 Gears was a campaign game first and mp was thrown together in the first game and happened to be good. Horde only came in Gears 2. Basically your comment is a Reddit tier circle jerk of "only my way of playing matters".

@shadow200343

Жыл бұрын

@@cheesenibbla8339 I don't agree with Agent's opinion of ignoring the PvP mode but removing the Gnasher shotgun would make the PvP a lot more enjoyable.

Datto made a good point when talking about Destiny. While he would love Devs to make the game he would enjoy, he realises that due to his skill level and the amount of time he can put into the game it would suck for 95% of the playerbase. Devs should make the game fun for the majority of people, not the content creators who can put 100's of hours a week into it

@invrtedpwnda9456

Жыл бұрын

Datto being incredibly based as always.

@nolives

Жыл бұрын

Datto is one of the reason we got sunsetting and the game bled players. Fuck him.

@lifeunderthestarstv

Жыл бұрын

Most people don't think about others, or systems, etc etc. Most just think how will this affect me. Most streamers and youtubers aren't gamers and don't want gaming to improve or thrive. They want to make money.

@jormungandr4690

Жыл бұрын

The objective evidence shows that SBMM is killing crucible right now. Why design the game for players who only play 3 games a week ?

As a pro gamer competing in small tournaments I agree with you everyone deserves to play the game and have fun regardless of how well or bad you play

This is actually kind of a joke for us designers. When someone gives us bad balance feedback. A common joke is “check their mmr.” But I have met and worked with many designers who approach their job with this mindset. And that is a bad idea. I always try to figure out where the feedback is coming from. And to never take a suggested change at face value. When a pro suggests removing a feature with randomness. It is most likely coming from a place of desiring consistency. Removing the feature would be bad and invalidate the fun of another group of players. So maybe I can add a system for the pro to deny the feature. Temp disabling the feature or controlling the randomness through spending resources. Anyway, I love this vid. A great reminder to never hyper-fixate or overvalue one group. All players have a voice worth hearing.

Great video. Reminds me of the saying: _"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of the game."_ Now we have the developer equivalent: _"Given the opportunity, developers will balance the fun out of the game."_

@JellySword8

Жыл бұрын

What's weird is that even after having watched the video, I still can't quite understand why a perfectly balanced game can't be fun. Just look at something like chess and how enjoyable it is at all skill levels

@A_Random_Nazuna_Fan

Жыл бұрын

@@JellySword8 The thing is ballance isnt allways a good thing, for example Doom and Doom eternal, theyre full out unbalanced. And than theres skill balancing, which... why??? Simply why??? Getting more skill allows you to learn stuff, one of the quotes ive seen and adapted to myself said quote being: "So what if he dies and shit on, every death is a learning experience"

@thesilverblueman

Жыл бұрын

@@JellySword8 because chess has two players and the only true variable is who goes first however in video games you have many weapons and classes that if you want them to be perfectly balanced everything has to be similar to the point that no weapon or class has an advantage on another then you run into someone figuring out a quirk of a weapon that gives an advantage then that has to be nerfed but the nerf makes it weaker then everything else then either its reworked, left as is, or everything is made worse to compensate

@JellySword8

Жыл бұрын

@@thesilverblueman To me, you just described csgo and what makes it so worthwhile. I'm willing to invest time practicing csgo because I know that it respects my skill at the game enough to consistently reward it. Honestly, I think it's what (competitive) games should strive to be. Despite the fact that almost everything is deterministic, there's so much variance in strategy that the game stays fun, even when you play the same map over and over again.

@revimfadli4666

Жыл бұрын

@@A_Random_Nazuna_Fan unbalanced between teams, or between weapons? Because the latter seems much more bearable

4:32 "I cannot think of one game/one shotgun that was... fun to use" The entire Doom franchise is based around shotgun based combat

@jeremychicken3339

Жыл бұрын

Team Fortress 2: "Adios"

@notribadsvault

Жыл бұрын

It’s literally the hottest take of them all.

@GraphUserInt

Жыл бұрын

"i cannot think of one game/one shotgun that was skillful but most importantly fun to use" Yeah say that to ultrakill players

@infinitespace2520

Жыл бұрын

To me, Halo CE's shotgun was fun to use, and every single DOOM shotgun too.

@therealevilmudbug

Жыл бұрын

Clearly he's never played a valve game

"I don't know of a matchmaking system in a game that doesn't group people based on skill" - tf2 casual is a matchmaking system that doesn't group players based on skill

A good example of all of this is what happened to League of Legends. When I was younger, I could have fun with the game. At this point, though, I haven't played it in years, due in part to how Riot would leave strategies & bugs that _ruined_ casual games at the average skill level in the game for MONTHS at a time, but would disable or change champions, items, etc. within days of them having too much of an impact on pro play or Diamond+ games (AKA the top 5% of players) Pro play is fun to watch but the reason esports can't be viable long-term is how thoroughly over-investment into them ruins the experience for the 90-95% of players, AKA the ones bringing in money for the game.

@mrsunglasses9947

2 ай бұрын

League of legends is one of, if not the most popular game that is comp focused. I dont know where you get the idea from, that 90-95% of people arent having fun, if the game is this big compared to its competitors. Surely if 19/20 arent having fun, the game would die off quickly.

Fun fact, even before Halo, this was already an issue in the gaming industry. A big french company called Infogrammes were developing very well-crafted games, and they were reputed as being beautiful, but bat-shit insanely hard. This was due to the fact that all of their testers were internal, and way too used to platform games and were, therefore, way too skilled to judge the game from a regular player's perspective. Eventually, when they started opening their playtests to external players, they realized just how much their games were not balanced properly. This is why "pro players" aren't the best ones to give advice on a game, they lack the perspective of pretty much most of the people who play games. A game should be a challenge to play, but it shouldn't be a chore either: good balance has to be found, and this is something that's known since decades now.

@nrishiee5231

Жыл бұрын

Infogrammes is a holding company. I think you're thinking of Atari.

@FalconPLT333

Жыл бұрын

@@nrishiee5231 Nowadays, yes, but I'm talking about a time when Infogrammes was an independent company and had an in-house development studio. It used to be a french videogame development company, a long time ago

@lex7228

Жыл бұрын

Blizzard had the perfect balance of casual and pro play in mind with the first few seasons of Overwatch. Then, hero design philosophies kicked in and now we have the shitfest that it is today.

@nrishiee5231

Жыл бұрын

@@FalconPLT333 ohhh. i see.

@nisnast

Жыл бұрын

Pros shouldn't be game designers, the same way professional chefs shouldn't teach people how to cook, they interect with their fields in completely different ways from regular people

This would be like letting the athletes write their own rules for a sport. Or letting the insane run the asylum. Professional gamers are gamers.

@Lin_Eileen

Жыл бұрын

Athletes do write the rules for their own sports what do you think athletes do when they are past their prime but not at retirement age yet? They become coaches, advisors, trainers, general managers, commissioners etc. of the sports leagues they played in, their experience combined informs how the meta of the game develops for the next generation of players and the cycle continues the players play then they get older and teach the younger players the rules and how to play. Athletes are not like insane people in an asylum nor are gamers like that. These statements you are making are so pretentious and nonsensical "professional gamers are gamers" yep they are and they tend to understand games better than the developers who made them 😂 It's funny because the games industry is so inundated with corporate meritocracy and just general greed that developers when they make a game more often than not their passion is squelched out for what's better for it as a product not as art. Pro gamers not just people who get paid lots of money but people who take gaming seriously as an art form that's has depth, meaning and expression to be found & explored devs should listen more to them and hardcore niche communities that have passion for games they have no prior investment in it's just something they genuinely love. What better way to improve the games we love than have the people who actually play them give feedback? Speedrunners, challenge runners, competitive players, campaign pros, expressive skillers, machinima makers, cosplayers, forge kids and screenshot bros, they all deserve to have their say feedback and influence on what they put so much time of their lives into. I love how all these casual Halo simps act like old MLG kids never liked playing customs with friends or having any fun on Halo. I understand people like you and Shredded are still really salty about not getting a 50 in H3 but there's no reason to take it out on people who was better than you. It's not them that ruined the games and the devs of Halo never listened to the competitive community they hired a few pros to legitimately work on the games knowing 343 probably abused them and made them hate working on Halo games they grew up loving.

@christiantaylor1495

Жыл бұрын

Athletes are in the best position to write the rules since they have the most experience and deepest understanding of the sport. You made it sound like they'd be writing rules to get an advantage over the other team, but that's not possible, when you think about it, so it actually is a good idea.

@nihilodiem9591

Жыл бұрын

@@christiantaylor1495 you would be surprised at how that's never the case

@ArcanumOverseer

Жыл бұрын

@@Lin_Eileen The part where you say gamers tend to know the game better is flawed, it's like saying a developer should be a pro at their own game because he created it.

@xCobraCommanderx

Жыл бұрын

Gonna be using this in so many arguments. Thank you

Been reading through the comments and i only have 1 question and its the most Important that no one i have seen has really pushed on. Define "Fun" whats "Fun" to me (Fighting game background) is the nerdy frame data stuff. Pressing buttons gets boring really quickly I like to know what im doing and why im doing it. Beating people who are on a lower level than me is not fun its boring. I LOVE Fighting opponents the same skill lvl or higher because i get to learn what Im doing and why I'm doing it as well as those tense moments where im 1 hit and they are 1 hit and its 10 seconds on the clock. I love learning "Oh shit I got hot by that move when i get off work tonight imma lab it and see if I can sidestep/ challenge/ counter." Im not a pro and I'm not a sweat. To me getting better is apart of the experience and its partly why i enjoy fighting games more than any other genre. I'm not saying pros can't be wrong, I'm say assuming that pro player's suggestions aren't "fun" because you don't want to learn how to play os a weird argument to make. What if there is a character with a move that locks you in place/ its a charged move so maybe byper armor/ and plus 5 on block, its locked behind a stance so you have to weave it into your block strings to make the move shine, if you are paying attention it is an easy sidestep and you can launch it for free. Casuals won't understand it and probably won't know it's easy to sidestep so they fight a person who uses the character and get washe and then will cry about it being broken. Pros will laugh and say its the easiest thing to punish in the world and nerfing it would only make the character even more useless than they already are. Who do you listen to? I've gotten so much hate mail in For Honor and Tekken and Street fighter its not even funny. "Bruh why are you trying so hard? This isn't Evo grand finals!" When all I'm doing is playing the game in the way i find fun, which is learning how to use my character properly and finding my groove. It's also weird that some people just assume that pros want the game to appeal to their needs when this whole conversation is about appealing to theirs...strange. I know it's crazy but you know that some pros want the game to be balanced so newbies don't get crushed by people who exploit certain mechanics/ improve the general experience not every pro wants their main to be meta, some pros want their mains nerfed because they think a move they have access to is stupid. It isn't rare either you can find many different clips of folks wanting their mains nerfed for balance sake. Lastly yes Balance doesn't equal fun but unbalanced doesn't equal fun either. Balanced don't always mean "Optimal" it could also mean equal/ manageable. What is "Fun" is subjective and it's useless to argue what is and isn't fun the more useful conversation is how we can achieve the goal the game has in mind? Is it meant for casuals? Sure go nuts. Is it competitive? Then treat it as such. And if you don't like Casual or Competitive games then maybe the target audience isn't for you and you should probably pick a different game or adapt to the new one. Not saying you can't criticize it, just make sure your criticism doesn't fly in the face of the goal of the game.

People really forget that games are supposed to be fun and not an “ego stroker” or “realistic”

For the longest time the sweathard community has been responsible for killing off dual wielding and elites in Halo because it puts other players at a "significant disadvantage". They really out here putting so much effort against diversity.

@TheDarkkilla12

Жыл бұрын

I still hate it when some popular people whined that Halo Infinite should have a BR mode because it would be a dead game on arrival if it didn’t. Except it still slowly died off….not because it didn’t have a BR, but because it was so barebones it wasn’t worth the effort to play it.

@shadow200343

Жыл бұрын

I don't know if I agree with that. Dual Wielding was removed because it significantly harder to balance weapons and served no purpose other than to look cool. I can kinda understand Elites being removed because it would potentially put players and teams at a disadvantaged but If you really care about fair play, just play Ranked. I believe 343i is just being lazy and don't want to put in the effort in making models for Sanghelli players. Bungie took a different approach in Reach by making the models slightly bigger and bulkier but also gave them regenerating health to make it more balanced, Which made custom game modes still fun to play, Elite only games fair and Invasion fun.

@charlesmartiniii1405

Жыл бұрын

@GoKllyoslf x they.... definately have a ranking system. Hey I hate the game too but at least I played it first

@bakuguardian

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDarkkilla12 I left after a slew of performance issues and the lack of content. News of Forge and some incoming new content does have me interested, but I won't get my hopes up for it. The game should have launched with co-op campaign, Forge, and a slew of MP playlists.

@daftmi9hty327

Жыл бұрын

I don't care I'm at a disadvantage. duel wielding as an elite is fucking awesome

"a good player is a good designer like a competitive eater is a good chef" That is the single best analogy I've heard about this topic in my LIFE. What a perfect 1:1 comparison. I'm gonna use that constantly from now on.

@tobysheridan5252

9 ай бұрын

It's not though?? Holy shit yt comments are morons

@RenonTTV

9 ай бұрын

A competitive eater might know a thing or two about good tasting food though no? I'm no competitive eater, but many fancy restaurants leave a lot to be desired in terms of flavor. In a way, sometimes high end chefs cator to high end customers like devs making a competitive game cater to pros

@dbio305

9 ай бұрын

@@RenonTTV a competitive eater? you mean the guy who soaks four dozen hotdogs and buns in water so he can slide them down his throat faster? bro, you gotta be joking

@bugjams

6 ай бұрын

It's easy to make arguments when you just make up analogies that suit your narrative. A better analogy would be good player > game designer/food critic > chef. Someone who no-lifes games is pretty pathetic, but they've put a lot more investment into understanding a game's mechanics than anyone else. Just like a food critic is going to know more about food than the average peon. Games aren't like food, because playing them more actually helps you understand how they're made.

@Chad.Ziodynecock

6 ай бұрын

a player thinking he understands a game's mechanics better than the very people who designed and implemented those mechanics is the same brand of fart sniffing as fans thinking they know a book's lore better than its author

One of the worst aspects of catering toward the 'pro' crowd for me is removal of any kind of fun aspect or variety in an effort to alleviate randomness or other factors, which taken to the extreme just ends up like "final destination, no items, fox only" where most of the gameplay features themselves are removed in favour of a stripped back streamlined sterile environment. Rainbow Six Siege was a good example of this, where before the game had some interesting and unique maps that changed up how you play and approached the objective, multiple different objectives which again would change how you played the map and then just something as simple as day/night map variants, now those same maps have been reworked to play more similarly to every other map, bomb is the only objective and I'm pretty sure they removed night time maps too. Even the ability to vote ban a certain operator from each time just strikes me as super bizarrre since it eliminates choice and they'll probably usually just ban the most effective operators. Not even a game like Rocket League is safe; where once we had a variety of map shapes and sizes and Rumble was an unranked playlist, now every map is a standard rectangle shape and Rumble is ranked for some reason?

The real irony with hardcore players is that they will often actually make a game simpler and less skill-based, reduce tactical depth, and undermine any sort of "non-meta" strategy, for the sake of "high skill gameplay". This is extremely aparrent with single-player games, especially beloved classics. Many hardcore single player gamers are obsessed with how oldschool games "didn't hold your hand" and "didn't give you an easy win button", but then you dig a little deeper and you realise that most of these people quicksave their way to victory. Win a fight on low HP? Quickload. Want to lockpick a door and your picking fails twice? Quickload and try again. "Hardcore" players are often anything but, and don't really want games to be hard or skill based. In MP games this is aparrent too. Counter Strike is my goto example, because it's so blatant there. CS is an extremely formulaic game. Every single round, depending on map, the CT's will split and go to both points, sometimes with a mid, again depending on map. The T's will pick a point and rush it, and then there will be a teamfight while whichever CTs picked the wrong point rotate. Sometimes you will see a lurk. Every single competitive round of CS plays almost the same way, because that's what the competitive scene wanted - no maps with 3 bomb sites are allowed, no maps with interesting mechanics (such as vehicles, or weapon restrictions, or etc) are allowed. Nothing can ever change because the "consistency" of the experience is more important than fun gameplay. This is why every single ESO CS match plays exactly the same way and is utterly boring to watch. It's also why the AWP remains extremely overpowered (to the point where they usually limit it to 1 per team), because every time Valve tries to fix it, the competitive community has a whine. Every weapon type other than Rifles is completely useless, and it is never going to get addressed because making these weapon types viable requires introducing new gameplay (for instance, a reason to not use rifles at close range), and the pro players will never let this happen, because they want their consistent matches. As a result, CS is one of the most boring games to watch and play, and I can see why the newest generation of competitive gamers aren't really that interested in it, it's almost like a boomer competitive shooter, because nobody else cares - young people are too busy playing fun games.

13:50 we all know the real reason there is less physics based stuff in Infinite is because of the shoddy networking and lack of time to test and develop things.

@terrelldurocher3330

Жыл бұрын

Because people wanted it rushed bud.

@Volcano22207

Ай бұрын

@@terrelldurocher3330 they actually had more than enough time and just had internal issues

This is somewhat reminiscent of one of my biggest pet peeves in a game I used to play all the time, SWTOR. They would *constantly* nerf abilities that were critically useful in PvE in order to balance the ranked PvP arenas. As someone who hated PvP with a passion (and wasn't much good at it), it frustrated me to no end that the developers were focusing on balancing around a specific branch of their player-base that was out of touch with the rest of us.

@GFMarine

Жыл бұрын

That shit was rampant in Elder Scrolls Online about four or five years ago, it ruined the PvE for my friends and I because they kept balancing the game around the giant PvP battles, so my group and I dropped the game because our builds and armor set synergies kept getting messed up, and even if we tried to adapt by farming new stuff, the items were getting changed on a bi-weekly basis so it just stopped being fun to put time into the game.

@fisharepeopletoo9653

Жыл бұрын

Yeah games like that should heavily think about having different balance options for pvp and pve

@OkamiAmaterasu.

Жыл бұрын

Just like bungie nerfing shit in destiny 2 because of pvp.

@bruhmoment1982

Жыл бұрын

@@OkamiAmaterasu. Though admittedly that seems to be changing a lot now with the idea of the PvE and PvP sandbox.

@VulpesChama

Жыл бұрын

I feel that, but from the other side. I played Sniper in SWTORs early days in PvP, and was occasionally looked at with this weird "A sniper, you can't even move around etc., you'd be useless." Only to one/two-hit enemy healers, with those ridiculous damage abilities of the Sniper. And then it got nerfed. Problem was, it was fun, and it was actually fun for both sides, because there was a danger everyone had to look out for. Game-devs, especially in MMOs way too often sacrifice fun for balance, to make the game more competitive. I hate it. Yes, PvP can totally be unbalanced and fun. ESO is the best example of bad balanced PvP that's still somehow weirdly fun. But ESO will never be an E-Sport because of that. And that's fine, isn't it? Why does everything have to be competitive or an E-Sport? I don't get it.

I watched through this video, and while i felt the point in the first couple of minutes, I never felt like we go anywhere as it just devolved into a long rant and I can't make out what's being said. Even with the summary/suggestions at the end I feel confused with what the message is as its pointing in all directions at once. Making to just sound like: developers, do everything better, for everyone! Thanks.

This issue plagues all of gaming and the worst is, players started to accept it as good blindly

I remember in one pro match in rainbow 6 siege, Zofia was self-reviving herself (which one of her original ability) but enemy team couldn't kill her in time so Zofia clutched that round. After that pros cried about it and they removed Zofia's self reviving ability from the game lol

@gamingseed2511

Жыл бұрын

that made me pissed off as a Zofia main. I don't play r6 much anymore but I was a decent player (high plat) who also loved to meme in casual mode. Literally nobody in rank/casual complained about her self revive being ''op'', pros have such huge egos

@audiomac

Жыл бұрын

The devs ruined that game. So many updates were so negative to the health of it.

@drool3616

Жыл бұрын

@@audiomac nail right on the head, THEY TOOK HOUSE AWAY!

@audiomac

Жыл бұрын

@@drool3616 Imagine devs removing fan favorited maps. I just am so stumped...

@bruskorken

Жыл бұрын

That was a good change tho. It was confusing to new players since it didn't make sense for her in her kit. It would fit better with finka or doc since their ability revolves around heal mechanics. If you want good examples; - removal of night time maps - removal of unbalanced maps in ranked - the first iteration of map ban (3 maps, 2 could be voted off leading to only playing the same two maps 90 % of the time) - yellow pinging for cameras making red pinging redundant Probably missing some others but I would say the *bad* changes to siege hasn't all been from pro players dictating the game. It's just ubisoft making poor design and balacing decisions.

In the "early" days of CoD, matchmaking was weighted a bit more toward location and connection speed, it didn't seem like skill was much of a consideration. People look back on it fondly because there were no servers, you'd host the game on a players console and it was fairly random. So it was fully possible to pub-stomp a bunch of pros (if they didn't rage quit).

@ckdunahee4478

10 ай бұрын

yeah i disagree with him on that point. Matchmaking is completely different and youre totally right it was random on cod and was so fun

@Sqdlow

9 ай бұрын

@@ckdunahee4478cod had skill based matchmaking, even back in the day. It just wasn’t as obvious

@ckdunahee4478

9 ай бұрын

@Sqdlow yeah I know, today though they alter your stats unfairly to keep you trapped. They never did that in old cod.

@joshuahuson1409

9 ай бұрын

Advanced warfare and earlier was definitely based on connection. I used to love pulling host and running over 6 man teams in Dom 😂.

@duckpotat9818

9 ай бұрын

​@@Sqdlowdepends on where you lived, more people = leaning skill based

Old Gears of War competitive player here and my back story watching a franchise I love dear fall down due to pros complaining about some iconic mechanics because too many people had further adapted skill to them. Wallbouncing is the most iconic skill you can learn in gears, it improves your fights and grants those players who willing to learn this mechanic a good survival chance whilst looking cool. This mechanic has been around since the first game and only improved as the games go on. Gears of war 4 had some smooth bouncing in that game and it was a little more easier from the other games but still was challenging to master. A whole year goes by and there’s this lan tournament for Gears it wasn’t the most viewed but after this particular event some unthinkable nerfs come to gears. OpTic Gaming was the most dominant team on the roaster winning I think 99% of all tournaments, they had such a strong team, but one player stood out to the rest as nobody could move or bounce like MentaL. As soon as he would get a spectator you know he was gonna do crazy stuff. One Day Coalition (the devs) brought a patch and they nerf wall bouncing, a skill that hasn’t been changed since release and it took a year for them to break something that didn’t need fixing! Then the Gnasher nerf, they was changing the games all because Pro players started complaining heavily. Because they had a bad tournament we the public players should be punished? The funny thing was I said earlier OpTic was winning 99% of there games and as soon as this nerf released they lost an incredible winning streak and watching that game you could see MentaL struggle to adapt to this new mechanic and he went from highest killer to barely anything. Still today it was questioned did they nerf a game or did they nerf a player. Now he plays CoD or CSGO I think. That was also enough for me to quit a franchise because Coalition showed they aren’t a public listener.

I was a "pro" when i was younger, more free time and stuff.. and even then i saw that my behaviour was destructive to the game community, i used to play +12 hours every day destroying casual and pros alike in mmo games. Today i see the other side of the coin, i play 1 hour each day at most, a little more on weekends, i see the things are gone badly for casual player, and its ironic since the people how tend to have more money for spending on subs.premium items, and stuff is the casual player. At this point in life and after thousands of hours (more than 30k hours for sure) i think devs should have a clear roadmap and don't fall for comunity advice, we as players have a single dimension perspective, they have the charts and the math behind any game.