Didn't watch the video just here to argue

@aweenvy

Жыл бұрын

I disagree with you

@sofaking9404

Жыл бұрын

Cheatbox turned shitbox, cry harder soyjacks

@Freshone48

Жыл бұрын

​@AweEnvy I agree with you

@rkp4360

Жыл бұрын

A true FGC participant

@evilded2

Жыл бұрын

@@aweenvy I don’t think that true.

As usual, BrianF explaining complex stuff like this in chunks anyone can understand - whether or not you consider yourself part of the FGC. Strong work as always...

@Brian_F

Жыл бұрын

Doing my best, thank you

@davidantoine6625

Жыл бұрын

@@Brian_F I am wondering how much this change would affect other games. I am not saying other developers - Bamco, ArcSys, et al. - will make similar changes. I believe having these choices of hardware SOCD will introduce other tech - which you note as well. We'll see...

@washingtonmarquice

Жыл бұрын

​@@Brian_Fcan explain trigonometry to a 1st grader

@sembatimothynkalamo8986

Жыл бұрын

As someone who only occasionally watches but doesn't participate in the FGC, Brian is the best at explaining all these things for a layman like myself. No one else comes close imo

@charlies_angels3496

Жыл бұрын

Bring back the beard, Brian! 😎🥹

I think software being in charge of SOCD should be standard. When we think about it, what happens when you push buttons is a game mechanic. It should be up to the developers to decide what happens for each game, not to controller manufacturers. Keyboards and pads already leave it to the developers, so leverless should do too. Even if we want to play old games we have ways to write our own software to clean it up, Fightcade has SOCD clean up at their software so it SOCD on the firmware shouldn't be allowed anymore, it just limits developers.

@omarfelix5540

Жыл бұрын

So no more, up and down and kicking won’t work?

@drbobcat6

Жыл бұрын

I'm fine with this idea in theory, but the FGC has been a community long associated with legacy. We regularly play games that are quite old and that's fine because of what those games can still offer us as players. UMVC3 is coming back to Evo this year, for crying out loud. That's pretty nuts! I personally love going back to older games like USF4 and SFxT, but those games wouldn't handle SOCD stuff like modern games (and thus wouldn't work well with a controller that did no cleaning of its own). I don't want to have to buy another $2-300 just because some suit is worried about a tiny, insignificant "advantage" that one controller setup provides over another. It's silly and if we get going down this road, everyone will just keep obsessing over "fairness" when all sports (of the e variety or not) have never been fair to begin with. This whole fiasco is dumb.

@rafaelbordoni516

Жыл бұрын

​@@omarfelix5540 Each game does it its way. If Strive wants to up+down=up and SF6 wants up+down=neutral, so it will be. If they ever change their mind, they can patch it. But with SOCD on the firmware, they're both (and all other games) locked to the manufacturer's desire with no way to patch it out.

@rafaelbordoni516

Жыл бұрын

@@drbobcat6 We don't need SOCD on the controller's firmware to play these games, you can add a software layer that translates the controller inputs, Steam always did that. In fact, Fightcade has SOCD on them too, 99% of the people playing 3rd Strike today play it through Fightcade and you can play with your keyboard with the decided upon SOCD community agreement.

@drbobcat6

Жыл бұрын

@@rafaelbordoni516 Not every game supports steam input, nor does everyone use fightcade. I will concede that most hardcore FGC people do know their way around technical questions. I also don't really mind if they DO actually pursue a genuine, consistent standard. I simply don't believe this was as well thought out as it could've been. That's obvious simply given how they claim to want to try to level the playing field, but still only allowed for previous shortcuts to return. There's also little said about enforcement, or even whether any of this can be enforced online (where most play will take place). The hastiness of the decision and the lack of consistency comes across as more of a reactive decision, not a well-researched undertaking. That is also not unusual given Capcom's response to other things in the past (the use of mods on PC being a great example). P.S. I use a leverless controller for health reasons as my disability makes a standard stick a no-go. I don't play charge characters that often anymore, though, so it's not as though I'm losing anything here. My critique is directed at their rationale and the overall obsessive mindset people have towards fairness.

I have to wonder if Capcom's reasoning is just: 1) software should be in charge of SOCD 2) as Brian says input shortcuts will be around no matter what, so let's just have all SOCD = neutral for consistency

@MansMan42069

Жыл бұрын

1) is literally it. Parity between software side and hardware side SOCD cleaning.

@evilded2

Жыл бұрын

Up priority has been the community standard for a decade. Why not just make the game comply to that if the goal is consistency?

@pilzi875

Жыл бұрын

@@evilded2 They could, but only if the Hitbox actually gave SOCD to the game. If hitbox masks the input then the game has no idea what's happening.

@Shyverin

Жыл бұрын

@@evilded2 this, I don't play charge characters but I am not excited to have my muscle memory messed with.

@MansMan42069

Жыл бұрын

@@evilded2 "community standard" counts for jack if it's not the specific game's standard.

Having SOCD at the software level (which it should be in this day in age) means they can make changes in the future.

@astjuly8239

Жыл бұрын

It would be so cool. I play on keyboard cause I suck in dpads and got no money to afford a hitbox style controller. But, Strive, Tekken 7, KOF XV and Fightcade helped me a lot with software SOCD. It is strange that Capcom still don't do that nowadays

@MansMan42069

Жыл бұрын

@@astjuly8239 But Capcom does do it. They've been doing it since SF5. The game (software) does the SOCD cleaning if it receives L+R or U+D from the controller.

@astjuly8239

Жыл бұрын

But not the true neutral or the L+R=N, like Tekken, GG and KOF does, at least not for keyboards that is my point

@gameandbros5462

Жыл бұрын

@@astjuly8239 It should. If you're inputting raw data without any SOCD (even on KB). 8+2=5. Moving forward all new games are being built with Hitbox in mind. Older games should just use a legacy mode which should be 8+2=8.

@pociksasiskin7285

Жыл бұрын

@@MansMan42069 Software SOCD been in Capcom street fighter games since at least SFIV.

As an outsider, Capcom's general decision to just have software handle SOCD makes the most sense. This way it standardizes all of the different input methods. So Hitbox won't be different than keyboard or pad, for example. Why Capcom has decided that the software level SOCD should be up+down = neutral is another discussion entirely. Though if they push for the removal of hardware level SOCD for their games, then patching up+down = up (or whatever) is easy to do.

@AgentBacalhau

Жыл бұрын

The thing is you're still allowed to have hardware side SOCD as long as it's the same SOCD as the software (which is obviously only really enforceable on in person tournanents). Your box can still have SOCD cleaning, and thus it pbbly will so it is useable in older games, they haven't ruled that out, it just has to always clean to neutral.

@marcossantos1998

Жыл бұрын

While I do like the idea of them being able to experiment, I'm sure the box players are not gonna appreciate the inconsistency from game to game, or patches that invalidate the muscle memory.

@muckdriver

Жыл бұрын

@@marcossantos1998 welcome to the world of videogames where inputs can be inconsistent and if you have a unique or non-standard input it's either ignored, directed to 3rd party, or standardized how the dev sees fit. I don't see a reason to be upset for the most part tbh.

@dev_ilmoon

Жыл бұрын

two opposite directions at the same time should be neutral.

@usuariofuturista

Жыл бұрын

They probably went with that specificaly to show the world how they made Hitbox bend the knee. Capcom strong!

glad somebody as reliable as Brian made a video for this, he layed it all out very clean and smart. Thanks for the explanation, keep it up Brian

Thank you for making this video Brian_F. Been seeing so many discussions on this and other videos that just devolve into "it's a cheatbox" and don't explain the confusion that many of us have about what Capcom is trying to accomplish.

You're spot on when it comes to releasing buttons just being sloppy, particularly with your middle and ring fingers. I've been re-learning Jojo's Heritage for the Future and Jotaro utilizes Hyper Hops for his bnbs as they allow for crazy extensions when paired with certain moves. Turns out, while you can just hold down and hit up for hyper hops in KOF, Jojo requires you to let go of down and stand up before hyper hops can be done. This actually makes the hyper hops fairly tricky as a lot of times I'll hit up before I have finished releasing down, resulting in Jotaro doing a normal hop and dropping the combo. On Stick this is just not something that can happen, as you will never accidentally be pressing down while hitting up, that's just not possible.

My guess is they get rid of shortcuts that allow you to circumvent a transition (crouch to stand/ stand to crouch) that you would normally go through. That seemed to be the flashkick nerf. And if other atuff becomes easier or harder than so be it.

@arbit4468

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Being able to skip the standing animation of Guile's flash kick is a case of the controller actually changing the functionality of a move. The easier overhead blocking or easier quarter circle forward motion doesn't actually change how those actions play out, they're just more ergonomic.

@Saskaruto16

Жыл бұрын

They could have easily fixed it by just forcing a transition considering they have buffering anyway. Up + down = 1f neutral, then jump. Make it so down to up always gives you 1f of neutral no matter how fast you do it, just make it automatic and buffer and it won't effect inputs because the buffer will save the person's input anyway. There, fixed. Now no one gets frame perfect flash kick even if you did manage to move your stick from down to up in 1f.

@Silk_OG

Жыл бұрын

@@Saskaruto16 no because this still allows for brain-dead 1 frame transitions, which should be difficult to do. not only that but forcing a frame of neutral could also be abused in many games.

@Saskaruto16

Жыл бұрын

@@Silk_OG A 1 frame transition is still more fair than a 0 frame transition which is what it currently is on the hitbox style. The problem with the 0 transition is that you don't enter the neutral to get hit by certain setplay situations that are normally true block/hit confirms of force the opponent to remain croutching, etc. This would fix that issue. The only thing I can think of that could really be abused by having the frame or 2 of neutral before moving to Up would be that tiger knee would be easier, but that's already cheatable in other ways, and it's even easier with Up+down = neutral anyway so it's irrelevant. Idk about certain anime fighter shenanigans though. The problem is that no matter what system is used, there will always be things that can be abused about leverless controllers, especially the hitbox style, no matter what the SOCD is. Up+Down = up: Easy 0f transition flash kicks. Dumb, yes, but not as bad as some other alternatives. Up+Down = Neutral: Broken high low and fuzzy guarding, Z motion cheats, etc. Multiple people have talked about how much more abuse this has than the former. Up+Down = 1-2f neutral, then Up, is at least closer to a standard controller/level input style where a person has to transition between those states normally for at least a couple frames. Yes a pad or stick could theoretically do it in 0 frames, even Bryan said he couldn't do it more than 1 in 10 times in practice let alone in game, so not realistic. Does it make tiger knee braindead? Yes. However TK is braindead on pretty much any hitbox style, with Up+Down = Neutral being by far the easiest. Unless there is some super specific abuse issue that could happen from adding 1-2f of neutral that I don't know about, I don't see a reason to not add that as an option.

@Silk_OG

Жыл бұрын

@@Saskaruto16 your forgetting the one true fair option, last input. If it always cleans to the last input then it stops all this nonsense and puts hitbox back on fair grounds. So when someone hits left- then right- then releases right. it will come out to left-right-neutral, instead of reverting to left on right release making it left-right-left. Same exact system with up down. (So hitting up while down is pressed makes the game stop recognizing down inputs until pressed again. Its a combination of opposite inputs and negative edge inputs that make leverless methods unfair. Until they adopt this then leverless will never be fair and able to do stuff not physically possible on stick or pad.

Such an AMAZING video. Well informed and presented. Thank you.

@aero9710

Жыл бұрын

It hasnt even been out long enough to watch the whole thing bro

@char-rez83

Жыл бұрын

@@aero9710 but I did, I wrote my comment and was prepared to edited it. However, I realized I didn't have to. My opinion still stands.

@Shiratto

Жыл бұрын

@@char-rez83Big brain strats

Subscribed! Because rational, clear explanations of what are considered controversal and possibly confusing topics are good.

They banned the dk bongos. What has the fgc come to?

This is really hard to enforce. For in-person events they'll have to have mandatory button checks where you display the SOCD behavior to a judge/ref. For online events it's undetectable unless you require handcams, which is impractical.

@malcovich_games

Жыл бұрын

Here’s the problem, if a player can switch the SOCD on the fly (like see the tweet by Junkfood Arcades for their Snackbox) would it matter if a judge inspected the controller before the fight? So even in-person it’s really not feasible.

@VinceOfAllTrades

Жыл бұрын

@@malcovich_games If there's a visual indicator, then it's potentially detectable. If there's not, it would come down to integrity. Either way, I think there's value in having a verified starting point.

@malcovich_games

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceOfAllTrades Junkfood’s Snackbox already has an indicator light but older hitbox models don’t. But also, I would not rely on “integrity”… some people would try to win at all costs. Heh heh.

@randomcatname7792

Жыл бұрын

If the game itself records inputs (possibly including how long it's held) and allows judges to read them, it's enforceable, but it would take to long

@l4ndst4nder

Жыл бұрын

@@randomcatname7792 Yeah it should be pretty easy to see if a player is consistently changing from down to up in 1 frame multiple times in a match. Then ask to inspect the controller after the match.

thanks for clearing this up, the chart was very helpful. I had understood the changes that were made incorrectly these changes don't sound like they're not for nerfing button box controllers, but just to make it consistent that all controllers have to go to neutral to go to an opposing direction. Seems fair enough

Lifting your fingers to release a button being slower is a posture thing. You could learn from guitar players on that point. The main trick is that your hand needs to be positioned so that neutral is release. That way, you press with muscular speed, and when you release you don't have to physically pick up your hand, you just relax it and your fingers will snap back to neutral automatically. If your fingers are set on the buttons, you'll be slower. You probably already do this on your attack button side. For this reason I've always been surprised that there isn't some kind of palm rest, or at least palm positioning dent/ridge, on sticks and hitboxes. So you can maintain your position by feel.

@rafal2675

Жыл бұрын

No. It's like at one side, someone making a chord and the other side someone making an aperggio. The chord will be always easier and faster.

@digitalsmear

Жыл бұрын

@@rafal2675 that doesn't change the fact that piano and guitar players can still play extremely fast for extended periods on a more complicated set of targets. All without looking at their hands, and often times while also dancing or singing, too. It also doesn't contest what I said about hand posture affecting your ability to develop speed.

@kurisuchiinathecrocodile333

Жыл бұрын

The reason why I prefer playing fightings on keyboard is because I used to play on guitar and do two-handed tapping and what not :D

@Augrills

Ай бұрын

@@rafal2675you’re arguing with guy about something different than what he’s talking about. He’s talking about economy of motion and you’re talking about muscle memory

@yaboi-km2qn

14 күн бұрын

I was going to say that I never have that problem on keyboard because I'm a guitarist.

Interestingly, this is the case with the original Hitbox. Other leverless controllers do it differently. Someone I know has a hitbox that cleans to Last Input + Up, while mine has a cheap Chinese board that cleans to Left + Down, and apparently there are even more type of SOCD boards out there.

@sidneysun3865

Жыл бұрын

Basically antagonist

@Sorrelhas

Жыл бұрын

Make a leverless controller that cleans to every single direction

@El-Burrito

Жыл бұрын

Cleaning to last input would be so sick for instant no-neutral sonic booms

thank you for the great breakdown. immediately think of daigo's guile / how he pushed the limits of guile moveset in sf5.

Great video dude. Thanks for actually clearing up all the misconceptions!

Super well put forth info. I didn't understand the complexities until I saw this

I've been experimenting with the new SOCD, and ironically this change probably makes box better/more consistent for people who play motion characters.

I agree with Capcom, this time. "Fairness" and "Consistency" are actually good and precise reasons. The fact that both keyboard and PS pad are "official supported input peripherals", that it is simply best just align all other peripherals SOCD behaviour to keyboard & PS pad.

@randomcatname7792

Жыл бұрын

@@MANTISxB or watch this video and understand that if it is a problem, it's a problem with the software of the game, which is universal for everyone. Using a tool to gain a mechanical advantage over the opponent should never be allowed

@dh3014

Жыл бұрын

@@MANTISxB They bring back shortcuts that's always there for keyboard & pad. Also there wasn't "standard", only customs.

@EternalSeki

Жыл бұрын

@@randomcatname7792 I agree, I dislike how people playing on arcade sticks generally have such an advantage over me when I'm playing on a xbox controller :/ can we just ban sticks?

@randomcatname7792

Жыл бұрын

@@EternalSeki the problem with winning stick is that they were the original intended input method for fighting games in general.

@Vespyr_

Жыл бұрын

​@@MANTISxB You're using hardware to cheat mate. You don't deserve any chill.

What a great and well explained video. Good job dude!

You’re a legend, Brian. I would have mistook you for a teacher as your primary profession, as you described everything fantastically. Thanks, champ. ❤

Been on hitbox since 2014, can't wait to lose my muscle memory :) Good vid Brian, great overview and nice takes.

A really great breakdown of the whole situation; good shit brine. This decision was def made reactionarily, tho going back on it seems pretty unlikely now, just because they'll want to save face (or pretend to). Interested to see what'll happen.

What a video man! Perfectly clear. Thank you for all this hard work.

Wow, this made so much sense and I never knew the benefits of hitbox before. Well explained

I think the ‘why’ and ‘what were they thinking’ is the easy part: just trying to correct a perceived unfairness and even the playing field. How they did with that goal is, well, a different story.. Side note- can you imagine if statements like this came with an official version of this Brian video? With examples, context, justification, etc? Wild

As a layman who just purchased the Vitrix $400 box, this was really informative, thank you for the long-form breakdown!

@WrathofGuldan

Жыл бұрын

Return it

@lodwhunno6278

Жыл бұрын

You said that clearly....in layman's terms

@invertbrid

Жыл бұрын

Hope they releasing firmware to update the socd too like hitbox

@julieallen07

Жыл бұрын

FS12? dang

@AdamL_18

Жыл бұрын

So what does it mean, is it a good news 😅?

Thnx for this vid very informative glad I sub keep up the great vids

i really don't get why hitboxes made up + down = up in the first place, neutral just makes so much more sense even when you don't consider balance implications. Left + right is neutral too why they gotta make it inconsistent like that

@espurrseyes42

Жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@lvlinty

Жыл бұрын

So my guess is.. they went with d+u=u because of charge characters. I only play sf titles (and massively casually) but I don't think charge up is a popular input... It's jump. Thus... They implement d+u=u so you can charge down and press up to jump. This bypasses the neutral horizon which is one of the key ideas behind having buttons for directions.

As someone who doesn't really know anything about all these boxes, and even with Brian explaining everything perfectly. My brain is melting lol

one of the cleanest content creators. Thanks Brian

using brain age DS music fits so well in the video, it actually makes me digest the mass amount of info easier probably cuz I have instinctively turn on BRAIN CONCENTRATION MODE whenever I hear that music

You might be the peak of FGC content

@SilverSuisei

Жыл бұрын

Brian's always been the 🐐

I understand why it was done in the past but I totally agree with this decision. Obfuscating inputs with SOCD cleaning at a hardware level is literally just macros, they weren't implemented with malicious intent but easily could be. This change removes the weird grey area hardware level SOCD cleaning created and allows for software updates to resolve things without worrying about how peripheral manufacturers configured their controllers.

Very informative Brian, thank you a lot.

This was an awesome video that puts all the chaos into perspective. I'm almost certain though they aren't full on banning leverless due to advertisement/sponsorship reasons. (I say this as someone who legit just bought a snackbox recently)

There's a way to fix this in software: the older input should take precedence over the opposite directional input, instead of canceling it, and the opposite input shall be completely ignored, like it never happened. So if you hold down, then hold up, the game will treat that as a "down" only input, then if you release down, it doesn't go up because it ignored that "up". Then if you want to go up, you need to release up first, then press it again.

@IlIlIlIIIIllllllllllllll

Жыл бұрын

I agree 100%. Inputs on hitbox shouldn't be allowed to circumvent neutral and I'd with this method you can still circumvent it but it would atleast require frame perfect button swapping.

@HmmHrmHarumph

Жыл бұрын

This is definitely the best solution I've read

@kelvinn1996

Жыл бұрын

This would mean you cannot use a single keyboard, since that isn't even SOCD cleaning anymore. If you hold s on keyboard and press w after, w is sent to the computer. Software can't do anything about what the keyboard sends.

@HmmHrmHarumph

Жыл бұрын

@@kelvinn1996 There's no reason software wouldn't be able to handle it if all inputs are sent.

A well informed objective response that not only offers a succinct explanation, but also provides valuable visual examples. Big thanks for doing the hard work gathering responses from other pro players and positing possible scenarios of what this change could affect. For someone, like me, who knows very little about hitbox this video was a boon of information. Much respect to you Brian for the perspective you offer. Your testicular sacrifice was, clearly, well rewarded with FGC knowledge.

Great video. Makes the mud as clear as it is possible.

Thanks for the explanation!

I think Hitboxes were more of an issue with Sf3 because of the way you could load up parries, blocks, and moves in the input buffer and really have a distinct advantage over levers. SF6 seems just slow enough (frame timing and animations)to where that advantage is way less OP and with the drive mechanics people can counter the insane input speeds of skilled Hitboxes players. I’ve had many nights getting destroyed and learning the timing of HitBox inputs on Fightcade. Can’t wait to play with erebody

If Capcom wants to make software in charge of how SOCD is interpreted, this makes sense to me rather than making special-case bans to try and cover things as they come up, even if it hurts a lot of people in the short-term (which does suck). The idea is presumably that long-term this is the better approach, and I can see that making sense if you're just looking at Capcom games. The trouble I see some people bringing up is that if other producers stick with the old standard, then players need to deal with different games having effectively different inputs for them to perform standard moves like flash kick, DP, and fireball, and that is its own long-term problem.

great breakdown of this topic!!!

Awesome coverage. ❤❤❤

if Capcom can see all of the inputs in sf6 that means they can choose what's acceptable for each special move and make it harder for hitbox players on purpose by programming against SOCD shortcut special moves instead of the hardware doing it. So each special move is done in a way that they think is acceptable.

@uniquename6925

Жыл бұрын

That removes the skill ceiling though... And punishes everyone, despite the problem just being one form of input. Move inputs are a part of balancing. For example "why not have one button reversals?" Because reversals would be too strong with less difficult inputs. Forcing diagonals and stuff increases the skill ceiling and forces more thought out reversal timings. Doesn't make sense to say inputs aren't a part of game balance.

As a hitbox guy, I think there is really only one option (besides letting it ride as is), which is let the software decide all cleaning, and the software make it a last-button priority system for SOCD. This means if you are pressing back and then press forward, the game reads that as back until back is let up. Once you let go of back and just have forward, you then get forward. But if you were pressing forward and then tapped back, you would keep advancing and not block until you let go of forward. This would introduce negative edge tricks (to flash kick you'd be holding down + up while charging and have to let go of down), but only really works as a trick for charge moves, is insanely awkward, forces the person to commit to weird situations, and has far less applications (as Brian said, letting go of a button is worse than pressing a button). The only nitpick here is what happens if there are no inputs, and then someone simultaneously presses opposite directions on the same frame, which I think should default to neutral.

@froilantocampo4053

Жыл бұрын

Agreed for the most part, except for one thing. If you are holding left, then press and hold right, the game should keep reading that as left. Yes Once you let go of left, but keep holding right, the game should now read that as right. NO. -- I believe the game should drop that right input entirely. The only way to get a right input is to do it without holding left. So you would have to let go of left, then press right in order to get that input to start registering. That should prevent that 'negative edge' trick you described, and would behave closer to a regular joystick or dpad, where SOCD is impossible.

@NineConsonants

Жыл бұрын

That would make it the most fair, in that there's no possible tricks, but as someone playing HB (and keyboard) it's so insanely easy to press two buttons at once when doing a back -> forward motion even when not trying to that it would just make it super frustrating to play normally. Something like trying to do a 6246 motion fast would make me quit lmao.

@marcossantos1998

Жыл бұрын

This change is a step in the right direction I think. To undermine hitbox innate brokeness, you need to take away it's ability to input neutral. As developers implement software SOCD cleaning, I think further experimentation will take place and allow for better balancing in the future, which is way I think this capcom push is ultimately going to be a good thing.

@hia5235

Жыл бұрын

@@NineConsonants It would be most fair to not allow Hitbox at all.

@lvlinty

Жыл бұрын

Last button priority is a weird way to describe that. Someone might think last= most recent instead of least recent.

Have an idea for a fun art project. Assign tones to each button to create music as someone plays a fighting game. It would be interesting to hear how everyone's song is unique yet similar. You could even give one player percussion sounds and the opponent melody tones to see how they work together.

Im so glad brian F made this clear case to ban all leverless

I'm honestly entirely on the side of Capcom for this one. It should be up to the developers how pressing buttons interacts with the game, like how it is with most pads and keyboard as well.

@KhyrisEidan

10 ай бұрын

Nah.

@Sammysapphira

6 ай бұрын

​@KhyrisEidan incredible counter argument

Gamedevs should always be in charge of how to handle SOCD via software. Others have already mentioned the more obvious main reasons (different games need different rules, parity with all other controller types etc.), so I'll add my own: software can handle SOCD in much more complex ways than just simple hardware-level L + R = U + D = N for example. Consider a backdash (back-neutral-back). If SOCD cleanup rule is simply L + R = N, you could do easy backdash spamming by holding L and mashing R. However, if the gamedevs are privy to all the SOCD inputs a player makes, they could SPECIFICALLY disallow this method of backdashing when they detect this in their input interpreter, while still allowing/interpreting L + R = N for everything else. And this is just a simple example. With this, gamedevs get to decide which kinds of input "shortcuts" are allowed and aren't alllowed, with a much finer level of control.

Great job explaining.

Thank you for the explanation, Sajam

I wonder if the sf6 socd software cleaning will prevent shortcuts. They might adjust the input interpreter to treat multiple direction inputs differently. Having it in the software side gives them more control so that even if technically the motion should work, they might make the motion not work with simultaneous inputs.

Hey Brian does this ruleset mean the ANTAGONIST button for stick players is also banned? I know Kizze, furby and a few other players use them

It's an interesting conversation. Been following this since you made your first video touching on it. My math background couldn't help but see this concern mathematically: 4 (Left) + 6 (Right) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 4 and 6 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5 8 (Up) + 2 (Down) = 5 (Neutral) -- Math justification: 8 and 2 (two inputs) equals 10, divide by 2 (two inputs) results in 5 I'm not for or against either method of SOCD (Up+Down=Up or Neutral), just thought it was interesting how my brain saw it mathematically

Brilliant video Brian, nice work

One thing to comment on is that capcom just wants the ability to control this in their software. Now that they have the sophistication as developers to implement socd inside the game it feels obvious to me that pairing input interpretation with the people who design the game mechanics seems like the obvious best choice to me. I really have no opinion on whether u + d = u or neutral and I feel for the competitors with the timing, but overall I have to say I'm happy that the SOCD interpretation is moving away from the hardware designers. In my perfect world we all just use identical input devices I don't really care which one. It just feels like whether its a hitbox or an antagonist board this is just a situation where its impossible to make everyone happy.

These changes feel like they're attempting to help stick, but honestly how many new players are even using stick? I know more personally that play on keyboard than stick. New players are playing pad, and if they want a fighting controller they get a hitbox. If Capcom is absolutely certain this change will make the game more balanced I would understand, but it feels more like they want to bring stick up while annoying consumers. They aren't even solving the problem of simultaneous inputs. Feels like a pointless change for today

Thanks for this video you helped to explain the changes better than anything else I've seen. This is actually the direction I think this controversy should go. For better or worse I think the fairness requires the consoles and computers accept whatever the user pushed. If the controller or the console does some form of cleaning then you have variability across devices and controllers that can lead to an unfair situation. Personally I think that the responsibility to address this falls on game developers, you've got to expect the users will figure out a way to do opposing directions and decide how to handle that. Different games can handle it differently.

Excellent explanation, kudos to you

I fully agree that software level socd is the future, but wouldn't it be possible to resolve some issues by adding additional restrictions on the software side? eg: couldn't flash kick just require a minimum of 1 frame of neutral in software? Which would make the shortcut impossible

@sharkexpert12

Жыл бұрын

It is literally a switch statement or an if else chain inside of a loop. I could teach you how to do it within a hour. infact here is how to do it the easiest way I could think without knowing how the game engine works. Literally repeat this for all 4 directions or do it in a switch statement. unless I'm missing something that makes this basic check fail. for the benefit of everyone everything after "//" isnt seen by the code. while (true) { If (up = true) { if (down = true) {DO NOTHING} //code just does nothing DO NOTHIN is filler for literally blank brackets. else {jump} // jump would call a function or an object function to do then make a character jump. } } this can be done across the board (like how skullgirls does it) or character to character if you really want to. Like I said I could train you how to do this in around an hour max.

I caught James Chen's breakdown on stream awhile back, so this isn't new to me, but it's great to see this covered thouroughly and succinctly for those new to the hB drama. I'm glad to see leverless controller manufacturers rolling out firmware updates for their customers. Time will tell if this ruling really does lead to a definitive overall advantage for shotos; I anticipate changes coming on the software & input shortcut side of things. This approach does seem more intuitive, if nothing else. If they reverse the ruling, there will be another wave of hB drama. 😅

My first response from you was essentially "nope you're wrong, and I'm gonna post why tomorrow" love it

This is incredible content. Thanks Brian!

Great technical breakdown

Well, if you take out a character specific benefit (guile flash kick) and put in a whole cast benefit (1F blocking) at least it really is more consistent, it doesn't benefit one single character, I don't think it's better, but it's definitely consistent.

I still don't understand how it's different from using a keyboard

@mildsome9713

Жыл бұрын

It’s not.

Been waiting for this from you in particular to hear what ACTUALLY is happening. Lets get it.

This is a brilliant explanation, nicely done

I don't see a problem with this. It is about standardizing all controllers, not making something more or less OP.

Chun Li's antiair in SF6 is down, down, that means that you are forced to stand when you release the first down. But now, you just can hold down the entire time and press up (neutral) and kick. It's the same because you stand when you press up, but I think it could be easier/faster with the new rule.

@pociksasiskin7285

Жыл бұрын

No you can't, I checked it with no SOCD controller and moraly dubious version of SF6 beta. Down down input requires two distinct instances of down. So first of all it has to be neutral down, you can't do down back twice. Second because it requires two distinct down inputs, you can't hold down press up for neutral and release up to get down again for a second down, even with negative edge turned on. You can hold down, press up twice and this will give you two distinct down inputs, but its not really faster than regular down down input. It is easier to do if you crouch, but again, can't do it from downblock. If you ever tried lever less it like socd dashing, just turned 90 degrees. You can dash forward by holding forward, and pressing back twice, but no one really argues that it's unfair.

@Harlec

Жыл бұрын

Man, this is so confusing. I saw this video and I thought it would work for sure kzread.info6Tu19VZCoMA?feature=share The instant DP works, right? The one with the jump. Chun's AA doesn't bother me because I was doing it pretty fast with double tapping but the other one is huge.

@pociksasiskin7285

Жыл бұрын

@@Harlec Yeah, 639 DPs work, but saying that it's unfair is disingenuous considering that there are alternative shortcuts that use b + f = n SOCD. 639 is the fastest shortcut you can do, but it's barely faster than current alternatives.

@Harlec

Жыл бұрын

@@pociksasiskin7285 to me is a matter of execution. I'm kind of new to hitbox (like 4 months) and from the right side I'm having a lot of problems. I wasn't using that shortcut on purpose because I knew it wasn't allowed in 6 and I didn't want to get used it, but since now is back, I'm going to start using it right now.

@pociksasiskin7285

Жыл бұрын

@@Harlec Yeah I hear you, sometimes shortcuts are just more comfortable, like doing f.mp hold forawd, tap back twice for a drive rush.

This mirrors the frustration I always had with how competitive card games tried to manage 'problematic metagame elements'. I have to assume that what Capcom actually wants here is to ban leverless controllers. Rather than just do that, they're in this weird place of "Let's issue rules about SOCD cleaning that will make people stop using them on their own" because they don't want the PR hit of banning a $300-400 controller outright. It's frustrating, and always feels passive aggressive.

@lvlinty

Жыл бұрын

For sure. It's pretty obvious the Capcom devs design their controls around a stick... Attempting to force hardware manufacturers to send raw input is just a way for them to "hack" "fixes" into the game for the oversight.

Excellent video

Hmm ok, if they are stopping up + down which used to = up, should now = neutral in street fighter 6, so hitboxes aren't really banned, it's just that movement of up and down (when held together.) will now be registered/seen to the game as neutral. Thanks Brian, cause I have seen other video's and they were saying that leverless controllers are banned and only DS controllers were allowed.

@Appletank8

Жыл бұрын

I believe the concern is that many leverless controllers currently do SOCD on their own, so games won't be able to tell the player is pressing Up+Down, it just sees Up. Leverless controllers needs a patch or some sort of switch that let's it disable its internal SOCD and let the game's software handle it.

@CBJ.

Жыл бұрын

​@@Appletank8 Really? Ok, lets wait till the game is released and see capcom says about lever-less controllers.

Interesting change from Capcom. From the developer perspective it makes sense that the software should decide what to do with the inputs. From the leverless user perspective it's a bit annoying as there will probably be a firmware update but that's about it

Your breakdown about the hit box is good. I don’t know how to play with an arcade stick or hit box but I enjoyed your video.

another optimal brianF video

Since hardware SOCD is still needed for supporting older games I feel like their firmware should include an option to toggle hardware SOCD cleaning for newer games and let the software handle that. Sure up+down=neutral might be even worse but at least that change can then be reverted on software level via patching, I don't think that is something that should be handled on hardware level nowadays.

@DoctorDarlingTTV

Жыл бұрын

That’s what I’m curious about, what about people who play older games? What does SOCD do in those games? Probably varies huh

@Appletank8

Жыл бұрын

@@DoctorDarlingTTV Wasn't SOCD added to Hitbox and the like because older games didn't have SOCD at all?

I view the rules change as a liability issue for Capcom. How can you as a Tournament Organizer allow controllers that fundamentally work in different ways? They clearly want all controller inputs/methods to work in the same fashion as a Dualshock4/DualSense controller at a hardware level. What you do beyond that starting point is up to the player. But for Capcom, all controllers must function the same way at a hardware level. I’d personally like them to revise the rule to allow L+R=Nothing. L+R should output to L+R like the ps4 pad.

@MansMan42069

Жыл бұрын

What you're proposing is basically removing hardware side SOCD from leverless, which should be the case for any controller imo.

@Paoa02

Жыл бұрын

@@MansMan42069 lol its how it used to be before they forced us to use socd

This was a really good explanation 👍

Wow excellent video sir!!🫡

Could this be solved by requiring an actual neutral input in special moves?

@goodlookinouthomie1757

Жыл бұрын

This gets to the nub of it. I see a hitbox as the FGC equivalent of an athlete augmenting his performance with drugs or maybe cybernetic implants. Sure, it improves the performance, but that's not the point. It goes against the essential spirit of the game.

I think the reason Capcom did this was to neuter a new fight stick mod called The Antagonist. It lets you add a macro button which, when pressed, enters a directional input that is opposite to whatever direction you are inputting from your stick. Holding back to charge a sonic boom? Well just press the antagonist button then punch to immediately shoot out a sonic boom. All with little to no forward movement. Likewise, do the same thing for a moon kick using the appropriate buttons. This mod is meant to add hit box like functionality to levered sticks.

Great breakdown!

Really the only way to make everyone is on "the same playing field"(although when you look at high level tournaments winner is either playing controller or pad with lever) is to enforce either that everyone uses keyboard/leverless or controller/fighting stick with lever.

As you said, seems like the old standard is outdated. Makes sense to update it.

@MarkoLomovic

Жыл бұрын

but they didn't update it they reverted back to what up + down = up is fixing.

All this only applies to CPT level tournaments which lets be honest, 99% of players don't even try to attend. The capcops are not checking your SOCD hardware settings every time you jump on your silver ranked Cammy for a few games. People saying that hitboxes are now a $300 coaster are out of touch.

@Brain_F. One comment about the back and forth nature of the hitbox 639 DP changes for SF6. I've been following this pretty closely and from what I can tell the 639 shortcut no longer working in SF6 isn't actually the direct result of tightening up the special move interpreter. Instead I think it resulted from a system wide removal of jump cancelling special moves, so 639 would still qualify as a valid DP input in SF6 but because it ends up a jump and jump cancelling is removed, it comes out as a jump instead of a DP. So the new hitbox changes make a little more sense in this light, as 639 was removed simply by jump cancelling being removed, and it was restored by a change intended to remove some lever-less charge move abuse.

@pociksasiskin7285

Жыл бұрын

Does that mean that you literally can't do 360 from neutral in SF6? Doesn't whole input hinges on you cancelling your prejump frames into spd?

I think on the software side with new games, software side SOCD control per-game will allow special-case behaviors in-game per character.

Isn't the main goal of this change to just standardize equipment? Having a pad up+down give something different than a hitbox up+down is a problem in itself, and as you all state the end result of the direction combo doesnt matter; either way the input becomes abusable, so might as well make it consistent across all controllers

@evilded2

Жыл бұрын

But, the up priority had already been standard for fighting games.

@shanks4u

Жыл бұрын

@@evilded2 did you read my comment before replying to it or was more than 5 words too long for you

@jstim06

Жыл бұрын

Daigo didnt save Capcom a spot under the cherry blossoms, so they're trying to take away the Ume Flash Kick. Daigo: そうか。研究室へ。

@shanks4u

Жыл бұрын

@@jstim06 jesus christ please tell me your being ironic

@jstim06

Жыл бұрын

@@shanks4uCapcom. HitBox. Guile. Just a thought. But as Knuckles says: "I dunno..."

Coming from the perspective of a keyboard player, SOCD being handled on a software level is something that needed to happen eventually. It is pretty much impossible to find a keyboard to console converter that can handle SOCD since they're all made for FPS games and very few of them exist in the first place (especially if you don't live in NA) so any ruleset that forces SOCD to be handled on the hardware-side pretty much bans keyboard or any other controller not made specifically for the FGC (Which is also a huge accessability issue for all non-pad players that can't afford to/don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a proper stick/leverless controller.) Of course while it's valid to disagree with the new standard (I don't personally care either way) it is very understandable to me that it is a rule that you can no longer handle SOCD on hardware level at all, since it is modifying your inputs like a macro (though of course infinitely less harmful, but still.) While I agree with the sentiment that the already existing community standard should have been used, I think ultimately the shift from hardware SOCD to software SOCD is incredibly important.

4:45 i agree, that bicep vein goes crazy👌

Trivia: In Ninja Gaiden 1 on the NES pressing left and right simultaneously made Ryu move right with normal speed (and slide), even if he was in the middle of a leftward jump. This allowed to climb walls.

Very glad it's not banned, because this is the SAME thing that happened to pad players. Yet people simply adapted and accepted that all controllers have their own advantages.

@nouse3771

Жыл бұрын

Stay underdawg!!! love you bro

@fabled2821

Жыл бұрын

Pad is just so widespread, because it comes with consoles and it’s used with everything on them too. You remove the ability to use a controller, 95%+ of the player population uses and there’s gonna be massive pushback, so people just learned to deal with it.

socd cleaning doesn't solve the problem and i wonder how long it is going to take the fgc to realize that.

I have to say the brainage music is too perfect for this. Superb video and explanation

Brian literally is the best fgc analyst/breakdown channel on KZread