Well done to those who have spotted the mistake! At 20:21 I did NOT mean Fatty, I meant Lotho! 🤦‍♂️😂💚

@dambrooks7578

Жыл бұрын

I was wondering whether Jackson had besmirched Fatty's name..

@shogun0810

Жыл бұрын

It's ok, since ROP you're full of mistakes and contradictions. That's the channel now

@ardaea2529

Жыл бұрын

But someone else writes your scripts now. Was it his fault or your fault?

@JEBossTon92

Жыл бұрын

@@shogun0810 then get off the channel, man. Just like to troll?

@paulrhome6164

Жыл бұрын

I was too busy, and to tell the truth, too pissed off, to say anything when I first heard it. I assumed it had to be just a typo/misspeak, and glad to see it was a priority to correct

There is not an actor ever born who could have brought Saruman to life better than Christopher Lee. Everything from his height and appearance, to his commanding presence and amazing voice, were perfect. Add to that his knowledge and reverence with regard to the source material, and there's just no question. The man was made to play Saruman, and I will always be glad he did.

@sergjarz1145

Жыл бұрын

Daniel day lewis wouldve been great as well .

@ilovegir

Жыл бұрын

he never made me see a black smith. A black smith would have muscles?

@keyboarddancers7751

Жыл бұрын

@@sergjarz1145 DDL would indeed have been a very intriguing choice. Also Sean Pertwee would've been a much better fit for Elrond.

@VicInNocal

Жыл бұрын

I feel the same about Ian McKellen as Gandalf, he is perfect. I might've read somewhere that Lee wanted to play Gandalf, and though I'm sure he would've made it work, I'm glad we ended up with the castings we got for those 2 wizards

@stevenlocking8698

Жыл бұрын

Christopher Lee had the most interesting life.

Not Círdan’s fault. Just like Tree Beard said, “A Wizard should have known better!”

Not Cirdan's fault, Saruman has always been a jealous character. Like sauron, he desired power, though not as quick or bold to take action.

Christopher Lee did such a timeless job on Saruman

Saruman is an excellent character study of pride and how it slowly takes hold and grows over time when unchecked

I’ve noticed that Christopher Lee had a knack for playing noble characters who had fallen. Dracula, Saruman, Count Dooku All were men who were proud and sought something just out of their reach and something turned in them which they decided they were no longer bound by what limitations society and/or perceived that held them back prior. They will achieve their goal, even if it means reaching forth and touching the darkness You see? This is the perfect scenario of what the Rings of Power should’ve done as Saruman and even the Nazgûl did the same thing. Instead of Galadriel they should’ve followed Saruman.

I think Sauruman is in Tolkein's world, an example of how the absence of humility can lead to arrogance, which then leads to evil.

@Brandon-a-writer

Жыл бұрын

beautiful. absolutely! Unchecked power breeds arrogance, arrogance pride, and pride an absence of humility. And we know how those without humility fare in middle earth 😂😂

One could say his fall was inevitable. He was always proud and impatient. He desired order and efficiency because he felt he was uniquely qualified to bring that and what is more inefficient than different free peoples all pursuing their own agendas at cross-purposes?

@florbfnarb7099

Жыл бұрын

A fall is never inevitable; it's the choice of the person who falls. Saruman could have retained humility and kept to his job.

@grandadmiralzaarin4962

Жыл бұрын

@@florbfnarb7099 not really, circumstances and nature can make an outcome effectively predetermined. Does the individual make a choice? Yes, but within the context of their personality, their characteristics, nature and the setting how much of that is choice and how much is following the natural course of events?

@florbfnarb7099

Жыл бұрын

@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 - People are able to resist the natural course of events. People who brutalize others are not compelled to do so unless their mind is so far gone they have no control over themselves at all - and even then, there have no doubt been people in those circumstances who, in a moment of understanding their actions, have killed themselves to avoid harming anyone in the future. People who commit armed robbery are not compelled to do so. People who murder aren't compelled to do so. And angelic beings in the guise of old men who attempt to conquer the world aren't compelled to do so; they could refuse. They're simply giving in to their own wrong desires.

@grandadmiralzaarin4962

Жыл бұрын

@@florbfnarb7099 from your point of view. Yet we have examples of mental and psychological illness that does in fact compel individuals. Particularly in Tolkien's works, where Morgoth's entire personality, arrogance and destruction are literally stated as derived from Eru. With Saruman and Sauron both we have a desire for order, control and yes, even betterment that starts their corruption before it is finalized through their personality traits and compulsion from someone more powerful than themselves. Again we see this literally after Sauron won the contest of wills with Saruman in the palantir. Characters that do evil do not see themselves as evil, particularly in the case of Sauron and Saruman, they see their actions as ends justifying the means, and over time those become increasingly more drastic and self serving until they're unrecognizable. There's also the entire debate on morality and ethics being subjective in nature, which further undermines your argument for the 'choice' factor being black and white.

@florbfnarb7099

Жыл бұрын

@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 Melkor wasn't compelled to become evil either. He was willing to do so for the sake of his own power. Same for Sauron and Saruman; none of them were compelled agains their will to do the things they did. And there's nothing subjective about morality as such, much as men might debate the details; murder is simply wrong, and so forth. Of course none of them considered themselves evil; almost nobody does. But that doesn't mean they aren't; they can mean good at first and still do evil through arrogance and a willingness to use means they have no right to use.

The most interesting character in LOTR imo. Christopher Lee was an amazing actor and played him perfectly.

@raskolnikov6443

6 ай бұрын

But Jackson didn’t write him perfectly IMO. I get why but he doesn’t really show that Saruman sees Sauron as a rival and that he’s not just a minion.

Not Cirdan's fault. Especially considering that the information on Saruman knowing about the ring is left out of LOTR. A number of the Maiar joined with Morgoth previously, so it is not unlikely that the pull of power and greed would infect on such as Curumo as well. In fact, I suspect that Curumo/Saruman likely felt that he was smarter that Sauron and would be able to achieve greater power through his cleverness and deceit. Just a thought...

I wonder if perhaps Eru gave Cirdan a brief moment of “enlightened insight” (even by Elven standards) when Gandalf came from sea. Similar instances in the books: On the slopes of Mount Doom, Sam sees a physical manifestation of the forces good and of the ring when Frodo casts his prophecy to Gollum. Another instance (though Frodo is wearing the ring and thus in the ‘realm between the two realms’) was when Frodo sees Glorfindel as he is on the other side at the ford fighting off the Nazgul. I wonder if a similar situation happened where Eru gave Cirdan - and only Cirdan - a heightened level of insight to his great plans and why he would need Cirdan to stay in middle earth with great patience and he should give such a great ring this seemingly feeblest of the great beings to come across. Eru showed him that actually held more power than the rest. I know Tolkien hated allegory, but I can’t help but compare it to having a gut instinct on the humble underdog rather than the cocky title defender. Saruman was hungry; Gandalf was humble. Even cloaked in their wisest of appearances, even though their intentions may have been purest when stepping off the boat, I wonder if Eru trusted Cirdan with this most detailed foresight given to any being originally of middle earth so that he would never waiver in waiting for literal Ages. Just a fun idea lol

Nobody else could be blame for Saruman’s. His personality made him naturally susceptible to corruption, he was too eager to test himself against Sauron, which led him down many paths which all come out to the same conclusion, Sauron couldn’t be defeated by strength, unless you used the one ring.

Not Cirdan's fault; there were other ways he could've handled not getting a gift, like proving he could be a wise cool mega wizard without a trinket... a prideful approach as an example. Saruman's choices are his own, his lack of perspective as well

I always saw Saruman as a villain you love to hate. Sauron is just so terrifying and serious, it’s nice seeing a villain that’s entertainingly unlikeable while still a serious threat. He’s jealous, greedy, spiteful, petty, selfish, and short tempered. He tried to take over the world because he was salty about Gandalf being more popular than him. When he escapes Orthanc, the first thing he does is become a crime boss and takeover the Shire, purely out of spite. Frodo offers to let him go, Saruman responds by trying to stab him. Any and every chance he was given to redeem himself and become better, he smacked away. He’s just a heinous person. There’s also the whole feeding people to his orcs thing.

It can be argued that it was because only it fostered immediate ill will and distrust with him and the elves as well as caused a rift between him and Gandalf. Although....his character flaws ie his pride and ego in being the leader of the "wise " made this moment one that would instantly offend and therefore push him onto the road he ended on in a potential effort to prove others wrong..... The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.

It goes to show you the power of the one ring, that Sauramon, who had never even laid eyes on it, was corrupted by it. Pretty horrifying.

Great video! Thank you for the hard work. Really shows

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for taking the time to watch 😁

Great freaking job!! I really enjoyed the video.

No one but Saurumans fault. Reason from my understanding of readings…” So do I …All we can do is choose what to do with the time given to us…” paraphrasing Gandalf The Grey to Frodo about wishing he’d never lived to learn of the Ring /Golem/ Mithrel …depending on book source or Peter Jackson’s excellent movie adaptations. PS- Excellent KZread channel. Great content , artwork and especially the massive Lore knowledge. From a massive Tolkien fan. Subscribed and Liking videos as time allows. Cheers TBS bros!

It was not Cirdan's fault. Saruman was proud from the beginning, and this pride only grew in him through time, the nobler Gandalf became. Saruman coveted the power which Gandalf did not want, but wielded nonetheless. In his research Saruman "delved too greedily and too deep", until there came a time when he could no longer hide his jealousy.of Gandalf.

To be starting out Good.. and or Well Meaning etc.. Twists and Turns and Life.. sigh, thanks, well done.

I wish P.J. filmed Scouring of The Shire while Christopher Lee was still alive, that would be incredible imo!

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

If only 💚 I can see it being a one-off 8-part series one day! It could be incredible!!

Sarunron of many colors

My second favorite wizard. I always wanted him to have more scenes in books and movies. Hopefully there will be something done soon with him, Gandalf and other wizards when they were younger.

@marcusweathers3070

Жыл бұрын

No thanks. They will pervert it with wokeness.

@michasalamon8315

Жыл бұрын

@@marcusweathers3070 fair point

It was his pride, thinking he was better and more deserving in his on eyes.

Saruman, being a Maia, did not truly die. His spirit separated from his body much like his master Sauron's after the Downfall of Numenor. As an incorporeal spirit, he should have been called to the Halls of Mandos, but the tale implies that he was barred from returning. Tolkien indicated that his spirit was left naked, powerless and wandering, never to return to Middle-earth: "Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whither-soever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back." -- Saruman's fate

Beings of great ambition are often swayed into darkness. It can become an all encompassing obsession which can eclipse all other concerns.

I think that fault was in attitude to Saruman. Imagine that you are the the most powerful and clever wizard, but all attention is given to your less skilfull colleague...

I dont think Cirdan is at fault but one of a few triggers that brought out the bolder more evil parts of him that were already in there.

One correction. Fatty Bulger wasn't on Saruman's side, he was a rebel leader after the Shire was taken over. It was Frodo's cousin who was manipulated by Saruman.

I think even without the ring Saruman would be jealous. Just because he knows Gandalf is better.

"Sharkey" still cracks me up

I’d like to see a bit of Saruman before The Hobbit, see if he was always what we have seen :)

It was NOT Círdan's fault. Curumo had always been arrogant and self-important, thinking himself above taking along Aiwendil on his journey to Middle Earth, so it stands to reason that he would be filled with spite if someone other than himself was given such a great and powerful gift as the ring of fire Narya.

I am curious as to what happened to Saruman's rings of power. The other 19 lesser rings were tied to the One Ring. Their power diminished with its destruction. Were Saruman's rings equally tied? If he was only able to uncover Sauron or Celebrimbor's methods of crafting Rings of Power, then it's likely they too would have lost their power after the One Ring was destroyed. But if Saruman figured out how to avoid that, then what happened to these mighty weapons? Or was it just one more ring? Did Gandalf take it back to the Undying Lands to prevent it from being used for evil?

You know what I think. I think there was a kid " nicknamed sharkey" who bullied tolkein when he was a child himself and had the opportunity to be in tolkeins book

I think Saruman is already prone to becoming evil because of the way he was. He is just like Sauron, prideful and ambitious.

Not Cirdan's fault. Curunir's jealousy of Olorin began before they left Aman.

I wouldn't so much say that it's Cirdan's fault as much as his responsibility. It may have ended up being a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. One of the properties of the Ring was to restore and hope and courage. It may have been what kept Gandalf from succumbing to the despair of fighting against Sauron and joining him as Saruman did.

@Jeffrey_Dungus

Жыл бұрын

Dang, good point! Though I like to think Gandalf's resolve and empathy for the peoples/creatures of Middle Earth would have kept strong even without Narya(but who knows!?). Fun to think about either way, for sure.

I wouldn't say Tolkien only had strictly good and strictly evil characters. There are a few gray characters in the novels and movies. Denethor, Boromir, Smeagol/Gollum, Saruman I'm sure there are others, but I'm working on 3 hours sleep today so....

Not cirdans fault since tolkein seems to like to make those forgers the most rebellious since the beginning when Aule created the dwarves without permission from Eru to Feanor with the silmarils and then Sauron and celebrimbor with the rings of power, it just seems that forgers and workers of metal are the most flawed in the legendarium

@jiffah

Жыл бұрын

that is an interesting perspective indeed.

I'll go to my grave thinking that Saruman believed Sauron was unbeatable, and therefore wanted the One for himself to use against Sauron. The idea that anyone would have the strength of will to toss it into Mt Doom he thought was absurd. Saruman's story only strengthens how remarkable Frodo and Sam (and Bilbo) were

Did you know that Christopher Lee started a death metal band before he died?

Absolutely not Cirdan's fault. It says that Saruman was proud and impatient, not a good mix. When or how he discovered Gandalf had Narya is not known, but in his pride it would have made him envious and jealous.

That must be who the stranger is because the numenor video came out right before the new episode

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

😂😂 we can only guess on anything! We have no way of knowing beforehand!

I don’t think cirdan caused Saruman to fall. He was already jealous before he arrived in middle earth and he continues to be king after. He seeks power to prove that he didn’t need Gandalf and it causes him to fall.

Not Cirdan's fault. Saruman considered himself the strongest and the most qualified to take on Sauron. I think between Manwe forcing Gandalf to go, Cirdan's gift to Gandalf, him being stuck to babysit Radagast, and Galadriel wanting Gandalf to lead the White Council, he had enough. It's almost like working for a company for 10 years and seeing a hot shot who just joined be on equal rank and status.

It was not Círdan's fault. Saruman had already problems before coming to Middle-earth

What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?

What must be understood is the beginnings of the Istari. The Istari were Maia that had taken up a form of man. In their transformation, these Maia forgot much, and had to relearn much. When the Istari known as Curunir was bought before Yavanna and asked of Curunir that he be accompanied by Yavanna's choice of Istari. This member was later known as Rhadagast the Brown. Curunir accepted this request poorly, thus showing his flaws of character! This pride was later to damn Curunir!

Not Cirdans fault. Saruman desired power just like Sauron, is it a coincidence that both Sauron and Saruman served under Aule the Valar

awesome vid James really enjoyed this worn and it Wasn't Cirdans Fault

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!!

I think honest Kirdan unknowingly or knowingly dodged a bullet. When Gandalf meets Saurman in LotR how does he identify himself? He says and i qoute "For i am Saruman the wise, Saruman Ringmaker, Saruman of many colors." Ringmaker and Gandalf even says he saw a ring on Saruman´s finger. Saruman was able to make a lesser ring of power without having an actual ring to study... What do you think would have happened if Saruman got a hold of one of the three elven rings? How long would it take him to decode their making and copy their design for his own gains? My bet is not long, in fact Tolkien eludes to this in one of his letters. If the enemy had just captured Sauron, allowing Saruman access to Mordor, it wouldn´t have been long before he would have found the last pieces of missing lore and be able to craft a master ring of his own. So again Saruman not having access to one the Elven Rings, might just have saved Middle Earth the coming of a second dark lord. Though it would be an interesting what if scenario, if Saruman had been able to make a master ring of his own before the fall of Sauron, could he actually have competed directly against Sauron in strength of would Sauron have crushed him?

@Jeffrey_Dungus

Жыл бұрын

Brilliant, I wished they would make a Lord of the Rings: What If? kind of short story or comic book where Saruman gets hold of the ring-lore from Mordor, makes a second master ring, and becomes a rival Dark Lord...I imagine one would try to kill the other eventually, but no matter who wins Middle Earth would certainly lose lol...

Love this

Monas Hieroglyphica is a book by John Dee that tries to explain what a human-looking symbol is about. A hazy mystery.

i dont think its Cirdan's fault fro Saruman going batshit crazy tho it only enhanced what Saruman already had in him.

Not Cirdan's fault. He could see Gandalf's efforts would need the ring, and thus he possibly also knew what Saruman would become. It would stand to reason that Saruman's fall was inevitable and already set into motion.

I always thought he hated on Radagast because they trapped on shoots once and Saruman freaked out...Keep up the great work Mellon! Brohirrim forth! ECTHELION! Not Cirdan's fault

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

😂😂 now that is an amusing thought!

Not Cirdan’s fault. Even by being jealous of Gandalf Saruman still could have worked with him for the greater good. And remember even before Cirdan, Gandalf was also manwe’s personal choice to be one of the istari. The King of the Valar chose Olorin, not curumo, as his personal favorite to go. Saruman was jealous of Gandalf long before the ring was given.

I just think it bought out his true nature all long honestly. He just hid it very well before apparently.

It was not Cirdan's Fault. For the same knowledge was given to Gandalf in time and the choice fell upon him to take The One Ring or not; to which free will or free choice was a thing to these wizards. And he did not for he knew the evil that was crafted into such a small thing. Then we also had the Tree Beard said "A Wizard Should Have Known Better." Upon one, who among the others shouldn't have even considered it.

My thoughts on Saruman: I think the fault lies with the Valar. In choosing to give the Astari the forms of men, I think they also gave them the failings of them. That, when forced through the filter of a man, their thoughts and deeds were colored by that filter.

I think personally that saruman and Gandalf were originally friends and allies. As Gandalf has called him friend and wise. But in the hobbit movie it's said that saruman believed that only through power could good win and Gandalf had other views. This is probably where sarumans slide to evil began when he realized that good can't overpower evil through raw force alone. This probably troubled saruman and led him into studying ring lore. The time he abandoned reason for madness was probably when he started using the palanteer. And right up until Gandalf revealed the ring of power had been found I think there was at least some faint hope of redemption for saruman. For maybe he still thought that ring might be lost to the sea

Correction: Not Fatty Bolger but Lothello Sackville-Baggins.

@Brandon-a-writer

Жыл бұрын

great spotting! It's embarrassing as the script writer to make a mistake like this, but I appreciate you pointing it out.

Clearly Cirdans fault, the ring giving is the ”We do not grant you the rank of master” of this universe Imagine Sarumans cries of outrages in the havens. ”It’s unfair”

I don't think he was evil at the start. He was, I believe, more hungry for power and seeked out for all possible things to gain as much power as possible. His jealous nature probaply didn't aid him to influence everybody. And it probaply also didn't aid him in his thinking and choice making. He turned evil. And his choices, actions and jealous nature aided in becoming evil.

It was not Cirdan's fault, it was kept in secret and passed in secret, if Curumo had been pure of heart he would not have been jealous of Olorin...

Just want to share this: In the "Rings of Power" OST theres a song called "Wise one" I'm afraid that it can be about Saruman and that could be a clue for the mistery of the "Stranger"

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

Interesting note! Let’s hope there are many others who can be ‘wise’ and they don’t bring him about in the second age!

I mean Saruman searching for the ring makes sense. Even when he was still good.

I’d be interested to know what kind of relationship Saruman had with Morgoth

It was a team effort. He felt those feelings and found validation from the dark one.

Didn't Saruman's use of the palantir give Sauron an inroad into influencing him?

To answer ur question @ 10:35 ab how Sauruman turned evil, the answer is; it was his own fault. Sauruman had a choice between good and evil, and he chose evil. He already displayed villainous tendencies when he was jealous of Gandalf for getting the ring of fire (lacking humility). He allowed himself to be seduced by the idea of Sauron's goal of dominating Middle Earth to then dominate it himself. In pursuit of this goal, Sauruman repeats Sauron's methods of babarity by committing merciless atrocities against the beings of Middle Earth, even going out of his way to sabotage Gandalf and the others in their effort to beat Sauron. He seeks to oppress the people's of Middle Earth, arrogantly believing that they can't defend themselves, to then create an oppressive authoritarian regime with himself at the helm. For all his knowledge and wisdom, he failed to understand that he had a mission to help the people's of Middle Earth defeat Sauron, not take Sauron's place. Had he have aided Gandalf and the others, I strongly believe that Sauron could have been defeated much earlier, but he prolonged the war, causing more pain and suffering on Middle Earth. Sauruman chose a path of evil. In doing so, he created more agony and grief when he could've brought peace to that world.

It is said that Cirdan had a very powerful gift of sight... Even it was his fault he did it with reason. The words he said that Gandolf would need to kindle men's hearts was definitely proven to be quite true.

It was not Cirdan’s fault as it is always each person’s responsibility for their own decisions and actions.

The White Wizard had to already have the seeds of dark things in him , or he wouldn't have gone Dark so easily.

@florbfnarb7099

Жыл бұрын

Who says it was "easily" though? He was incarnated for thousands of years. Who knows what evil we might be tempted into in that much time? We get up to plenty enough evil in our eighty years as it is.

10:35 - It was not Cirdan's fault. Giving the Red Ring to Gandalf wouldn't make Saruman's fall Cirdan's fault; if all it takes is resentment of a gift to someone else, well, that's Saruman's fault.

IMO its not Cirdan’s fault. You can’t, eve with one ring force traits on a characters, that arent already there. It reminds of Maia who became balrogs- they weren’t turned by force, they had evil in them before

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

I agree! 💚

Would say that his jealously of Gandalf, desire and lust for power and possession of the plantier were the three main factors that led to his corruption and eventual fall to the dark side and becoming the lord of Isenguard.

Saruman was probably swayed by Melkors discord but smart enough not to join along. I think that’s a way to describe him. I think sending him down was a way to weed him out. Either he overcomes his self interest or succumbs to it I guess.

Aüle has bad luck. Both Sauron and Saruman served under him. Sauron before joining Melkor, Saruman before going to Middle-Earth

From what we know of Curumo when he was under the care of Aüle in Valinor, he seemed already a bit arrogant and had a sense of superiority (his feelings on Aiwendil/Radagast even then were quite telling) so there always was the potential for disdain, mistrust, pettiness, jealousy and ambition in him. It wasn't Círdan's fault.

@Brandon-a-writer

Жыл бұрын

It would seem that a number of Aule's apprentices would go on to have... less than stellar careers in middle-earth. Maybe it's something about Aule? He went ahead and made the dwarves before Eru, showing his impatience and pride (perhaps), so I could see that Aule might be one of the the Ainur who "hearkened" to Melkor's song during the Ainulindale.

@jiffah

Жыл бұрын

@@Brandon-a-writer yeah there could be a link with Aüle fostering rebel spirits.

He was a Maia so what happened to him? Or did they lose eternal life when they became wizards and didn’t rerun to Valanor?

*Not Cirdan's fault.* Tolkien serves us some subtle semblance of Saruman's slightly suspicious character even whilst in Aman. If Saruman had been given Narya, he'd've eventually perverted its strengths to evil even to the point where the overall fight against Sauron and the Ring Quest itself could not have been successful.

I do NOT think it was Cirdan’s fault. Whilst in his pure Maiar form, I believe Curumo had more strength and sense of purpose toward his mission and fully expected to fulfill it. However, as others mentioned, I think he always had that spark of desire for order and the overconfidence that he could be the leader to enforce it. It isn’t an impossibility, seeing how others of their kind harbored jealousy and desire for power greater than they’d been granted & therefore turned to evil. I do feel only the seeds of that and any ill will toward Olórin probably began even then, though perhaps not consciously. I just feel like maybe he thought Gandalf had humility and wasn’t always confident, plus kind of “towed the company line” without complaint or ambition & Saruman likely saw that as a weakness & someone who was more follower than wise leader. Yet, he observed Gandalf getting approval and recognition for these traits. At the time he may even have just thought it misplaced. However, it feels like this and his other inherent characteristics only grew larger and darker over time once they were ensconced in a more human form, with almost all our weaknesses in body and character. Especially, when the same treatment of Gandalf being more trusted and revered continued in various forms among these beings he probably considered much lesser. He most likely tried to brush them aside for a long time, figuring these creatures don’t know any better. But, it slowly festered and grew & seeing that his rival, Sauron, was proving more formidable than he previously thought, he started recalling how things had been much the same before they came to Middle Earth. Maybe he started thinking Sauron had the right idea, accumulating power and trying to mold things the way he saw fit. He definitely wouldn’t have respected Sauron enough to really “join” with him, as he, himself was still up top in line for such a position. But, I feel he always believed he was up to the task of using Sauron’s methods against him to claim all that he desired and felt he deserved. He probably found it convenient that Sauron looked like he was on the winning end & that he should, therefore, exploit it. You can still see the conflict within him when he makes a last ditch effort to get Gandalf to go along with that “joining.” I wonder if being himself, trying to rise and achieve wonders, plus not being 100% evil was a lonely place, but one he was willing to forego company in if it must needs be. I also think some fear and desperation creeped in at the end there that made him doubt his confidence at last and gave him the final push to become fully entrenched in the dark path. An ignoble end (both in book & film) for one who started out do mighty and bright and full of potential.

@TheBrokenSword

Жыл бұрын

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to leave such an awesome comment!! And I agree, Saruman may have done evil, but I do believe that he always believed it was the ‘right’ reasons!

The starting point for Saruman's return to evil comes from Varda's approach to Gandalf while they were still in Valinor.

@MountainFisher

Жыл бұрын

Varda looked up and said, "Not as the third" and Curumo remembered it. Indeed even in Valinor Saruman had reasons in his mind to be jealous of Olorin/Gandalf.

Saruman used more witchcraft than Gandalf which was a sign that he was wicked and corrupted. Gandalf only used it for good when necessary. RIP Sir Christopher Lee❤

It was not Cirdan. Tolkien wrote (not in exact words) at one point that students of aule or crafting had something of a god complex. This is proven with Feanor, Sauron and even Aule himself. Feanor with the silmarils engaged in many dark deeds such as withholding them from the valar to benefit the world in relighting the two trees and in the kin slaying. Sauron in joining Morgoth because he saw more power in him than in Aule. Aule himself in the creation of the dwarves before they were given true life he needed to plead forgiveness of Eru who adopted and then blessed the dwarves with true life (before sending them back to sleep until the elves awoke). Saruman does this with his creation of a minor ring of power and creating his own species of Uruk, though like Morgoth he cannot create only change or corrupt. Saruman was jealous because he was seen as the strongest and head of the wizards order, with his god and power complex why should Gandalf have the ring of fire and not him. This is also shown when saruman was selected for the istari order and Yavanna a valar had to BEG him to take Aiwendil. This shows how much he thought of himself.

Not Cirdan's fault. Jealousy and dire for power were there as his own character traits.

It was not Ciridan's fault. Nobody is responsible for others having flawed traits such as Saruman's jealousy

There are those who, for some reason, sometimes remember Lord Alfred Douglas..

DAMN YOU CIRDAN

I prefer the movie version where the Shire is the way it was when Frodo left it to go on the quest. I always felt that the Scouring of the Shire was anticlimactic and unnecessary to the overall story. The movie version did it better where the Shire is the same but Frodo, Samwise, Merri and Pippen are different. Theirs eyes were open to the wider world, but they didn't resent their fellow Hobbits of the Shire for being who they were either. It was the perfect allegory of what people who go to war must feel like when they come home again.

It was not Cirdan’s fault that Saruman became corrupt. Gandalf wouldn’t have begrudged someone else getting Narya and certainly wouldn’t have turned evil over it. The rot was already in Saruman’s soul.

If Sruman didnt have the capacity for jealousy, it wouldnt have been an issue that Cirdan gave Gandalf the ring. So Cirdan isn't at fault.

In my opinion Cirdan placed the ring where he perceived it would be most effective. Good call - if Saruman was affronted enough by this one action to essentially join the dark-motivated, I think it's obvious Cirdan made the correct judgement. Jealousy is a bad characteristic for a leader... 🙈🙉🙊

23:15 Nobody is evil from the start, not even Melkor.

I don’t blame Cirdan for Saruman’s fall - it was Saruman’s pride that was his downfall. Cirdan was wise to give his ring to Gandalf instead.

I wouldn't blame Cirdan; the bearded elf didn't do wrong, and Saruman, even before he departed Valinor, was already showing signs of vanity. If I had to blame someone, I would, as I usually do, blame God, for I feel Eru Illuvatar taking away their memories of home, and something to return to, helped compel Saruman to nerd to "fix" this earth. A little silly I wish we knew; what was Saruman about before he took up residence in Isengard? He spent however long in the East, and I don't believe he entered Orthanc the DAY he returned, so there had to be a time where he wandered. I don't see him keeping a simple house, as Radagast did, but plebian inns and taverns also seem beneath him. Hell, I'm surprised when he was at Isengard he didn't seem to be attended by servants, yet such trivial things as cooking, cleaning, and other domestic chores seem beneath him. Did he adventure the world in those fine white robes? Did the elves like him enough to provide them? I think it could have been neat to get more info on the White Wizard on a personal level, but maybe I'm just weird.