It’s such a shame these Bayo players never learned how to talk to a lady, if only there was someone they could ask about it

@Sean-qg3gg

6 ай бұрын

It’s such a shame that Pit players have been unable to literate.

@awxii_

6 ай бұрын

It's such a shame that Captain Falcon players have never been shown any moves before.

@Quackra

6 ай бұрын

​@@Sean-qg3ggIt's such a shame that Lucina players can't protect themselves

@connoromalley4004

6 ай бұрын

If only Marth players had someone to take away their meat.

@parkerturner9766

6 ай бұрын

It's such a shame that Mr. Game and Watch players can't go back after going black.

I genuinely think Hbox video essays are the way to go instead of just gameplay videos.

@DogusAmbrosius

6 ай бұрын

Same

@nathanlevesque7812

6 ай бұрын

Just needs to stop slandering GnW with polar opposite descriptions of how works.

@125conman

6 ай бұрын

@Axe and he stream highlight videos he's been putting out since like 2017

@augustgreig9420

5 ай бұрын

I can confirm that this is true as someone who has never played Smash, watched maybe 4 matches, and have never watched gameplay footage and didn't even realize until you just pointed it out that these videos were made by one of the "gods" of Smash. The fact is, the videos are just interesting and well done, and they explain just the right amount about the game that a non Smash player like myself can follow them, but also don't go into so much detail that a person familiar with competitive gaming, and specifically FGC, doesn't find it boring and repetitive.

@isocle

5 ай бұрын

So much more effort to make, but equally proportionally better!

Bro please keep making these story-type videos. They are actually godlike

@rimzaaah5892

6 ай бұрын

I just hope he makes sure to stay on topic, he didn't answer the question the entire video

@slackair

6 ай бұрын

ghost ride the whip peanutbuttergamer rainbow tylenol mashup

@Baggerz182

4 ай бұрын

repent to God

I think another point for Sheik being less hated was Sheik was incredibly skillful and expressive. If smash 4 kept sheik as the best i genuinely think it would be remembered as a significantly better game

@Kapow59

6 ай бұрын

Sheik also died to total bullshit at 40% so everyone kinda felt bad for the players lol

@nathanlevesque7812

6 ай бұрын

*cheesy

@dennisreynolds1503

6 ай бұрын

Sheik also lost her grab 50 50 kill confirm so had to rely on the f tilt 50 50. She got nerfed but bayo was ridiculous throughout. Bayo shoukdve been banned and so should steve

@RaFaPilgrim

6 ай бұрын

Smash 4 Sheik was so fun that sometimes I still go back to my 3DS just to get a little taste of how things used to be.

@colmecolwag

5 ай бұрын

speak for yourself, I'd watch bayos and steves all day over Shieks.

I feel like nobody talks about how prevalent Cloud was in Smash 4 doubles. It genuinely killed the viewing experience for me seeing at least 2 to 3, sometimes 4 Clouds in each match. I remember there was a Google docs study showing that Cloud in doubles was more prevalent than Bayo singles. I wish I could remember the figures, but it was like 80% of top 64 / top 32 had Cloud within the last few years of Smash 4's life. Bayo might've ended Smash 4, but Cloud ended doubles before Bayo even came out.

@salemmetal6433

5 ай бұрын

Yup this is true. Cloud was ridiculous. I played cloud myself and 100% advocated for a ban on him in doubles, not even like a 1 cloud Limit like a straight up ban

@resean2727

5 ай бұрын

So you were part of the problem lol​@@salemmetal6433

There is a reason I like to think Shiek was never hated, at least to the same degree as Bayo anyways. Sheik still felt like she was playing Smash 4. Either finding a grab for guaranteed early damage, or chipping away at your opponent past 20-30% so that her combos/advantage can finally do its thing. Bayonetta felt like she was playing in her game of origin, and you are the unfortunate cpu enemy getting hit with a 20 hit combo that kills you in the process.

smash devs when they have to make dlc fair 😞

@MilkshakeVA

6 ай бұрын

pay 5 dollars to be instantly good at the game 😔

@yungmuney5903

6 ай бұрын

They gotta get more money somehow

@BaronBears

6 ай бұрын

Unless its Sephiroth 😞

@averytubestudios

6 ай бұрын

Or Sora…

@ishFRFN

6 ай бұрын

@@averytubestudios or banjo lmao

Crazy thing is that even though she got nerfed into the ground in Ultimate, she’s still fairly viable competitively. At her core, her combos are still there, they just took out the busted kill of the top combo which I feel is well deserved cause it was too easy to perform and killed way too early. She’s one of my secondaries besides my mains Ken and Joker but man is she extremely fun once you get her down in her new state.

@EnheTook50Benadryl

6 ай бұрын

Crazy?

@javitheswiftie

6 ай бұрын

she's only viable now because she got buffed, when the game came out bayo was not viable

@WhitePointerGaming

6 ай бұрын

When Ultimate came out Bayo was pretty bad. She's only become viable after receiving buffs.

@yungmuney5903

6 ай бұрын

I hate the extra landing lag for every special that is used, even when you land without using an aerial. It just made her feel so clunky. She plays like she has serious menstrual health issues but refuses to go to the doctor.

@OkairMcLaren

6 ай бұрын

For some reason they decided to up the lag for her using her specials but didn't make her grounded normals remain the same way so she can pressure just like the other characters. In smash 4 she didn't have special lag until she used 2 or more special moves not 1. However, in ult once she uses 1 special move she has a yrs worth of lag. @@yungmuney5903

dont let this video distract you guys from the fact that yesterday hbox was quoted saying "corrin feet YES!" on stream

@LukeA471

5 ай бұрын

I have to agree

@phillipanselmo8540

5 ай бұрын

I wonder how he feels about Juri

@Garbagecant24

5 ай бұрын

Corrin feet?

@LukeA471

5 ай бұрын

@@Garbagecant24 yes the best thing

I think Bayo would have been banned following that Evo grand final if Smash Ultimate hadn't been announced and had a release date by then. Since the new game was coming though, I think everyone just collectively decided to put up with it for a bit longer and then left Smash 4 behind.

@salemmetal6433

5 ай бұрын

Which is a shame tbh. I wish they just fucking banned her because the game was genuinely very cool outside of her imo. Like Rosa and sonic were kinda lame sure but honestly they were way less obnoxious and lame than like at least a handful of the meta characters in ultimate

I welcome vids like this, retrospective critical looks at smash, always nice to have so competitive scene can learn and improve on how to handle these kinds of situations

3:46 You have to take in consideration that ssbu's roster is 89 and smash 4 is just 51. For ultimate, if all characters are represented equally, there would be 1,1% frequency for any given character, conversely 2,0% for smash 4. So the frequenct for beyonetta is 13,6%/2,0% = 6,8 times the average and steve is 4,4%/1,1% = 4 times. So really beyo was more like 2 times more frequent than steve when taking into account the different sizes of the rosters.

@artsenor254

6 ай бұрын

Though this is true, I still think mentionning the 3x factor gives you a better picture in this case, cause that’s how it feels for the viewers and the players. When you watch a tournament overwhelmed with Bayo’s, you won’t consider how many you had to expect.

@TheRTDZ

5 ай бұрын

Taking in account Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra, the correct roster number is 86. 1/86 is closer to 1.2%, and 4.4% / 1.2% is 3.6. So yeah, Bayonetta being twice as successful as Steve is correct… for now.

I always think about how at the time there were people at my (at the time) college who would set up a tv and Wii U to play smash 4, and I ended up stopping by most days to play with them. It was a lot of fun to watch and play, and since some of the people who set it up played seriously, I was able to get their advice to improve at the game as characters I liked. Then, one of the serious players started playing Bayonetta all the time to "practice". Since they used a "best two out of three, winner stays in loser drops out" system, this guy naturally ended up playing pretty much the whole time, just using the same broken combos to steamroll anyone who played against him. As you can imagine, this meant that playing the game meant just getting destroyed by the same character using the same techniques that you'd have basically no chance of countering, and watching anyone else play was just watching the same character beating everybody the exact same way (I realized pretty quickly the only time it was ever exciting was when he started losing). As you can imagine, I just kind of ended up trailing off on showing up there, since the only way I'd get anything out of it would be if I seriously picked up Cloud for the sole purpose of trying to counter Bayonetta, and obviously that didn't interest me. It's really interesting to me in retrospect how that ended up as my own little microcosm of what Bayo did to Smash 4's scene.

Bayo’s biggest nerf between games was without a doubt to her forward air.

@twelvenation6393

6 ай бұрын

She still does 76% damage in her combo, she’s still op

@4days604

5 ай бұрын

​@@twelvenation6393 Doing big damage =/= op, not even viable especially with early ult bayo, bayo severely struggles to kill outside of backair, her forwardair extensions kept bayos combos, while still long, closer to the middle of the screen, which to the knockback nerfs of both upair and feels like fair, she didnt have anything to kill reasonably unles she got you out there at the percent she can combo AND kill at reasonably, she cant kill early because her options are rediculously slow, and she cant combo at high percents due to the changes of up b and side b practically killing some higher percent routes. And good riddance, she has alot, but she doesnt have everything now, her edge gaurding is great, having holdable aireals really helps with that, but youre much less likely to get touch of deathed by bayo, and even less likely to die at higher percents off a combo

@twelvenation6393

5 ай бұрын

@@4days604 I play Lucas and she can trap me in a combo right off the rip with 76% damage every single time. She’s way too OP just the fact you can’t escape it

@glatykoffi6672

5 ай бұрын

​@@4days604 the bigger the comment, the hotter the air ngl

@gbx4858

5 ай бұрын

@@twelvenation6393skill issue

You actually are naturally built for smash video essays. Would love to see you narrate more vids on smash history

I for sure think Bayo would’ve been banned had ultimate not already been announced, I remember cloud bans in doubles were being tested quite frequently despite the looming presence of ultimate

8:06 huge respect to that guy for disencouraging the crowd from booing

14:06: uh, no? Even in ultimate, witch time doesn't care about the move it counters. We have the formula for it on SSB wiki. I'll just copy the section about it over: *The formula for Witch Time's slowdown duration in frames is (180 - n) * b + 0.1p in Smash 4, and (90 - n) * b + 0.3p in Ultimate. n is the penalty for repeated uses of the move, p is the opponent's damage percent at the time they were slowed down, and b is 0.67 if Bat Within is activated alongside Witch Time, or 1 otherwise. As a result, if Witch Time is activated normally, the base duration is 180 frames (3 seconds) in Smash 4, and 90 frames (1.5 seconds) in Ultimate.*

@superdog3293

6 ай бұрын

probably people just don't notice/complain about it as much because bayo is worse with less representation and the base slowdown is halved, so there are fewer instances of bayo killing from witch timing a projectile across the stage. Still, I think it's absurd to not have scaling based on the damage/knockback of the countered move.

Smash Ultimate is now older than Smash 4 was when Ultimate released. Dang. And there’s no future game in sight. Dang.

Love this video format. There's a lot of history and past incidents to look back on, so hopefully we'll see more vids like this one from you.

Unexpected, but very cool to see you make such a video, Hbox! Keep em coming, you're providing great insight. Appreciate the data points too.

Wtf I got a Honda Motacompacta ad that had Hungrybox as an actor before the video started

6:06 To be fair, DK had an awful matchup against Yoshi back in Smash 4 so that could have been why DKWill chose Sheik in that set. I doubt that it had to do with just Sheik being the best character in S4 back then haha.

@DKwill

6 ай бұрын

Raptor is also my crewmate, and I knew he disliked fighting Sheik. My strategy was to camp with needles bc I didn't know the S4 Yoshi matchup that well yet and I knew if I went DK I would have gotten wrecked at the time lol. Yoshi feels like a matchup that I have to relearn each game bc they keep buffing the character haha. Eventually I go back and play it again with DK when I'm more comfy.

@SealyTheSeal

6 ай бұрын

​@@DKwill holy cow it's the man himself

I love this style of video, and having a person so important and knowledgeable about the community like you makes them so worth it. Keep up the awesome work!

And this is a new era to begin in this channel, and god damn am I super down for these kind of videos! Again, keep those coming!

He didn't even mention the five frame punish window against Witch Time. *FIVE FUCKING FRAMES.*

- HBox makes a huge video essay to show how broken Bayonetta was in Smash 4 - Some random annoying AF Bayonetta player: Skill Issue

please do more of these, i loved this one!

Great video, love this kind of content! One recommendation tho is to use a pop filter when recording or use some high pass EQ (or even better iZotope RX DePlosive) to cut down on the plosives in the voiceover. They’re suuuper noticeable especially on headphones!

great high quality video! this is like those hbox reacts videos but its actually you, and there are definitely so many more stories that can be shared

I love this storytelling form of content! Would love to see more videos in this format in the future :)

Such an interesting and important topic to cover in Smash history. I remember hearing about how bad people hated Bayonetta in Smash 4 online, it got to the point where I actually felt good that I was genuinely terrible with her and mained a mid tier character instead (Lucas). For a similar video, I would like to see a video like this be made for Brawl Meta Knight (if there hasn't been one already). Definitely seems like another character that should have a video essay similar to this.

I discovered Hbox thanks to Bronol's documentary on the 5 gods of Melee (I am French btw) and I love documentaries/stories/folklore about the Smash games. I did not know exactly what was the problem with Bayonetta in Smash 4 and your video was very clear and fun to watch. So thank you and please do not hesitate to release more videos of this kind, I think they are great ! And you make for a very good narrator too. Hope to see more stuff like this one soon again ! Why not something about SMB 64 players still active to this day ? Like how the meta evolves (or not) after so many years...

you have a great voice and tone for these kind of videos! keep it up!

Can we have more of these kinds of videos, it's always do cool to see your perspective on this stuff

Ay what a coincidence! Was just watching you, i love your videos!

Man I miss Smash 4 Sheik so much. I understand why she got the changes she did, but she was such a cool top tier in that game. Great video. You're really good at writing this type of stuff.

@OkairMcLaren

6 ай бұрын

Right idk how people get hyped for her combos in ult they are the same combos over and over again and people cheer for it lol.

I would love to see videos like this become a series, the history of a character would be an incredible series to watch

As someone new to the smash scene this was great! Would love more story time videos covering stuff like legendary tourney runs and moments

I remember a lot of the discourse around why Bayonetta wasn't banned back then was that people didn't want to make it seem like they were being bitches and banning a character instead of finding and grinding counterplay against her. I do remember that double Cloud in doubles was banned at some point, I think Bayo was as well but not too sure about that one.

I was surprised to see this type of content from you HGod but I really enjoyed the video! 👍

I love these essay type vids!!!

Don't let this video let you forget how Smash 4 Corrin could KO with their counter if the opponent was at 30% before it was nerfed. But yeah Bayonetta in Smash 4 was clearly the absolute best character with no counter play other than the Bayo player having to play badly and should have been banned. Smash 4's DLC were just bad in that they were either bad to okay or too good.

Love these type of videos, please do more of them

Kinda important to note after patch 1.1.6 people started thinking Bayo was only a upper high tier... of course they were very wrong.

HBox essays, didn’t know I needed them till today

love these vids❤🦸🏽‍♂️keep it up box

great video, thanks for making it!

when you do longer video's they're actually good videos it's positively surprising me

Had no idea how badly I needed Hbox story time videos. What a goat.

It’s either because the community had the weakest will, or because they had the strongest will. NO IN-BETWEEN!!

Please give us more videos like this, they are super entertaining!

Hungry box Story Videos?? Worth the wait!!!!! 🎉🎉🎉

More content like this, please!!

This video was amazing please make more!

Lovin this format!

Please keep these types of videos coming Hbox. PLEASE.

This was a perfect video bc I wasn’t around in Sm4sh. I’ve heard the stories but I didn’t know like in depth why she was so broken and everything about it

As a Charizard main from Smash 4, I can tell you right now I had no choice but to learn the Diddy Kong and Shiek match up because it seemed like every other match was against one of them lol I ended up not fearing either match ups, and with Zards buff he actually did decent against both of them

Awesome. I love story time. You’re good at telling the history of smash

LOVE these videos from Hbox

Loved stroytime with hbox!

Love this knew style of content.

Bayo was not broken just lore accurate 😅.

@Crzypengu

6 ай бұрын

Pretty much

Reminds me of all the EVO and other tournaments top 8 where Melee almost always had 6-7 Fox players. In other news, someone saying ZeRo's name on KZread?! That hasn't happened in years.

Editing goes hard.

You seriously can't compare Steve to Bayo. They aren't even close to the same league of broken in their respective game.

@abduleshabbar9223

6 ай бұрын

Maybe not yet, but only because Steve mains are using mayebe 1\4 of what he can actually do. If Steve was actually refined like bayonetta was at the end we would see the exact same result. That’s his point in fact. Steve isn’t that bad yet, but given time and lack of a new game, he will be. Instead of waiting for that to happen we should do something. The success of LMBM is a sign that that’s exactly what spectators want as well.

@ho0zy

6 ай бұрын

steve is worse

@Fishman465

6 ай бұрын

Hard to say, depends on how much payout Steve has for all that effort. ( SSN4 bayo seems to have an insane effort:payout ratio even compared to the Aegis sisters) Gotta sat such single character dominance happens in other games like how I think street fighter 4 AE was dominated by Yun

@doodoo2065

6 ай бұрын

Steve is still polarizing even if he isnt as broken. He is still op tho, he is the top 1 for a reason

@jameswilliams3416

6 ай бұрын

@@abduleshabbar9223did you actually watch the video?

more of story/history time with hbox would be great!

I loved the video essay!

10:57 I'm going to start a new band called Bayonetta Meta

Hbox you gotta make more video like this

I truly loved this insight. I wont lie, what I expected from this video was hbox reacting to a video on this subject not hbox narrating the story. I hope to see more like this. Blows my mind the community didn't learn their lesson with beyo and steve is still legal almost everywhere. With beyo at least everyone knew a new game was coming soon but with steve there is no new game that we know of. But oh well.

Great video, Hungry Box! Yeah!! Yeah!!!

Wtf Hbox doing the video documentary stuff? This is a new era for sure

Sm4sh player seeing 4 bayo in top 8: 😡 Melee player seeing 7 foxes in top 8: ⭐️🤩🥳💫🎉 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡ 🔫 🦊 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡

@EmperorPenguin1217

6 ай бұрын

So true lmao

The issue with the charts the shown in the 6 min ish mark the 2018 numbers is by then those were also the lowest entry points in sm4sh history and the influencers influencing the games views on bayo is what makes it look like bayo numbers were oppressive.

@salemmetal6433

6 ай бұрын

Literally, a lot of top players were entering less or quit too

@BlazenMikay

6 ай бұрын

@@salemmetal6433 but that’s the thing. Only reason why melee has surpassed and outlived is because of generation and legacy’s. That game was plagued by people saying 20xx fox will take over or jiggly puff is evil piece of crap. But neither is true. Is the precipitation the community creates. Brawl lasted so long because of those who loved it. Most of those legends became the founding fathers for sm4sh until the next generation came. But then EVERYONE SHITTED ON THEIR STORYS whether you were a bayo player or not. If it wasn’t bayo it was going to be other characters. Either way history repeats itself and now we love / hate the latest game ultimate while looking back at sm4sh like more defensive but kinda fun. Most players are hella fickle and don’t like getting good or improving or taking criticisms from players supposedly worst then you or better then you. The smash community is now plaque with the same issue like the FGC. Instead of embracing a classic because it’s becoming harder to play you move on to what ever is “easier” to get your hands on. Instead of talking with your wallets. Y’all consume :3.

1:27 Well, this isn’t the first time ZeRo didn’t get 1st at EVO. He got 3rd at EVO 2016 losing to Mr. E and Kameme.

I have a feeling that this is gonna happen to melee in the future like maybe hbox will turn to a fox main same with aMSa but who knows

While it can be said that smash ult and 4 are in the same spot chronologically, I think an even stronger point is that they're at the same point meta-wise. What do I mean? Top players are starting to realize that steve actually has no counterplay (at least, no counterplay that is as easy as steve counter-counterplay), just like how people eventually realized that bayo was the best with no real competition. As sonic (maybe gmw, but I'm not too confident) reaches that point as well, I think people will eventually be unable to not reject the null hyphothesis (smash ult top tiers not being overtuned to an unfun and definitely game-worsening state). I think that will be the point when things are forced to move forward. Also, just a question, but is it a fair comparison to compare bayo to only steve, when sonic is also another char people want on the chopping block? Should they be paired together for stats?

music?

Awesome video !

More hbox storytime pls

Wile watching this video I got a Honda ad and Hungrybox was in it 🤯

Next do the competitive history of other party games like Gang Beasts, Twister or Monopoly.

What song is playing at 7:17

3:45 This 4.35% vs 14% comparison is pretty flawed. Not only does it not take into account that Ultimate has over 30 more characters to spread that distribution over, but it also glosses over what he mentioned literally one minute prior that late 2018 was when many non-Bayo players were either taking a break from the game or selling out to the Bayonetta pick. He's comparing the state of late-2018 Smash 4, a game soon to be replaced, to 2023 Ultimate, a game with no sequel in sight. Overall just a very sensationalist statistic, and it (along with other parts of the video) just substantiates the idea that you should probably only watch videos looking back on Smash 4 created by people who made the game their first priority in its prime.

I would like to give a hot take of making steve the same as they are now execpt fixing advanced things but also making blocks only be placable like in Minecraft 😒how theyre supposed to be stacked then nerfing hitrate and then just making minecart less powerful and finnally changing launch lines on anvil and jab jab can be more horizontal But also other characters can be buffed/ removed if there needs to be spot openings in the next game like duck hunt and doc and ofc the much needed gannon rework maybye even a fresh falcon with exactly the same playstyle but just a few extra cameos to his origin title then evening out some lower teirs and trying not to make many coppies (mega man and snake both heavy projectile characters with strong uptilts)

Story time smash 4s are what I live for man

There is almost 2 times the characters in ssbu compared to s4 tho

We NEED more of this story style content from the box

You didn't talk about steve's userate data at all :(

Honestly always though Lucas was a good counter pick for Bayo. He was short enough to duck under her gun, his pk fire could reach her while staying under her gun. Her approach went low enough for lucas to short hop nair her and stop her / scare her from approaching with guns or the side b.

Genuine question from a noob smash player. is Bayo still viable these days? i'm not playin for pro just want to beat my friends.

bro the dead horse that is bayo has been beaten so much the corpse turned to bones and now the bones are dust there's nothing left but you are still beating the ground.

Between AsumSaus doing tech vids, and you doing Meta vids: Life's good.

whats the song playing in the beginning of the vid?

@ivanzamorano3525

6 ай бұрын

Bayonetta 1’s Chapter select music

I think one of the reasons why the community didn’t decide to ban Bayonetta was because of Smash Ultimate finally having an official release date around the time the discussion was brought up. I think the community just all collectively decided to put up with it for just a little bit longer and then just leave her, along with the rest of Smash 4, in the dust when Ultimate comes out.

I love this type of video

Everyone who talked so badly about Lima during smash 4 when he was a kid and calling him carried been real quiet. He’s stuck with Bayonetta and proved he isn’t carried

I feel like while Steve is a shoe in for Smash 6, he's gonna get nerfed in a similar way to how Bayo was in Ultimate. I think a big thing is that NILs probably just won't be a thing in Smash 6, intentionally or not I think the tweeking they do to the character is gonna remove them.

@EmperorPenguin1217

6 ай бұрын

I think they might make minecart a hitgrab and cause items to be lost on death

@timmyb.3426

5 ай бұрын

Steve is either getting nerfed hard in Smash 6 or won't be in the game at all. Either of which is something I'm sure a lot of Steve mains are dreading. I mean look what happened with Bayonetta in Ultimate.