No one has ever 'deadpanned' something so eloquently as your "I swear on my Bible" quote. Edit: I may stand corrected with that "so waiting for bottom is not an advisable strategy". Great review of Phil Katz' history and that sad end. Great 'non deadpan' take and helping expose the tragedy of alcoholism and alcohol abuse in general. So much damage, so much denial.

@DavesGarage

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words!

@cmgweb6951

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesGarage You're welcome Dave. Great channel, I hope to allot more time to be able to watch more. Take care.

@thesaddestdude3575

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesGarage Damn i should get into alcohol.

@dickrichard626

Жыл бұрын

The guy must have been returded.

@JTSAMPSON04

11 ай бұрын

Such a sensitive expository description of both the program and the inventor is so illuminating. The spotlight shows the pitfalls and dangers of life while paradoxically one is excelling at some venture. Listening to this is strong medicine for many such a life.... CEB

Back in the late 80s, a power spike trashed my PC's hard drive while it was updating a floppy-based archive file containing all of my business financial records. The overwritten file, my only backup, was corrupted. The hard drive had been reduced to a whirring mass of iron oxide particles. It was absolutely the worst-case scenario. I was doomed. I called PKWARE and Phil himself answered the phone. He told me to make a diskcopy of the trashed diskette and send it to him. I did so, via Federal Express, along with a check for $100. Phil hadn't asked for any money, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Two days later, the Fedex guy rang the doorbell. I grabbed the envelope from him, dashed to my office, stuck the floppy in my replacement machine and saw, much to my relief, that my financial files were intact. Another look inside the envelope revealed a registered version of the software and a hand written note from Phil admonishing me to be more careful in the future. That's how I'll remember Phil.

@bugs181

Жыл бұрын

Hopefully you still have a copy of that letter. Some sort of tech history museum would probably LOVE to get their hands on it and share it with the world. I'd pay money to go see it!

@bootmii98

Жыл бұрын

You replaced. Your entire machine. Over a storage device issue.

@1KGB

Жыл бұрын

@@bootmii98 It was an older machine (pre-386) and made more sense to replace than put in a new hard drive, which were rather pricey back then.

@TheOtherBradBird

Жыл бұрын

@@1KGB Kids these days.

@MarcABrown-tt1fp

Жыл бұрын

@@TheOtherBradBird Hahahah I guess the disposable tech era started much earlier than the 2000's, then again 286 machines were rapidly made obsolete, not to mention their unreliable power delivery.

This is a hard story to tell without demonizing someone. You covered the good, the bad, and the very ugly while making Phil relatable on a human level. Excellent job!

@cd-lf8xm

Жыл бұрын

my thoughts also .. great vid

@hedlund

Жыл бұрын

Seconded. The internet has a way of completely forgetting the *human* in a human - especially one so far removed in time. Can't hurt remembering there are actually very, very few people with zero redeeming, or at the very least relatable, qualities.

@Omnifarious0

Жыл бұрын

I agree.

@Colaholiker

Жыл бұрын

I totally agree. And also think it is good that he included the hotline number where to get help.

@themariokartlick

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, when it comes to substance abuse people can sometimes become so removed from what is seen as “normal” that it becomes very easy to dehumanize them and see them as a lost cause. I think it’s important to remember that nobody starts off wanting to be an addict or a “lost cause” and in many cases it is just normal people who didn’t know what they were getting into. Whether it’s starting off with a prescription or just some partying, addiction is something that really creeps up on you and by the time you know you’re too deep in it

Speaking from experience, having two brothers drink themselves to death, I can say that alcoholism affects not only the individual but family and friends too. It's also one of the slowest, nastiest and painful ways to die. One brother died of total organ failure. The other died of uncontrollable internal bleeding.

@madezra64

Жыл бұрын

I am a recovering Meth/Heroin addict and one of the biggest revelations when my addiction finally caught up with me was that addiction effects EVERYONE around you, whether you know them or not. I caused an accident that claimed a young woman's life. It was then I realized how wrong I was. I always thought my addiction was my problem and that I was only hurting myself, but I was so very wrong that night. To any addicts reading this, PLEASE remember your problems do affect other people's lives. Get help before it's too late, please. The shame and regret I feel is indescribable. I wish I had listened sooner and got more help. It's not too late for you to get clean! Very sorry for your loss too. Alcohol is extremely dangerous. With my addiction, I can at least kind of run from it... But alcohol? That stuff is everywhere. I have always felt extreme sympathy for alcoholics simply because of this.

@fredtaylor9792

Жыл бұрын

It's also a contagious disease. For 4 years I was with a woman who is an alcoholic. She hid it long enough for me to fall in love and move in. It was so depressing watching her suffer I started to drink heavily myself. Any threats of leaving her or not supporting her hair just brought accusations and guilt.

@scbtripwire

Жыл бұрын

Total organ failure and uncontrollable internal bleeding, jesus. I knew you could drink yourself to death but I had no idea this is what that meant, how grizzly. My condolences for your losses.

@thepuzzlemaster64

Жыл бұрын

Got a brother who's an alcoholic and a drug addict. We've tried numerous times to sober him up, and we often get really close too, but then he'd find new friends that are just like him, or jobs that are run by alcoholics, and he'd go right back to where he was. Just like a cycle. ...After a while I just stopped caring about it and moved-on. Though, my mom still tries.

@sophiacristina

Жыл бұрын

​@@madezra64 Alcohol is amazingly destructive, and one of the most addictive drugs, not far from heroin... And like you said, it is available everywhere! I have problems with alcohol, i could stop for it for 4 years after a spiritual experience with Wachuma, but i got problems in my life at 2017 (ok, not an excuse, but also an excuse, most people don't know that addiction normally follow psychological problems, i was always strong to addiction, but got depressed and depressive people normally have problem with dopamine, which alcohol looks like an easy solution) and began again, and i still struggling to try to stop it... I'm drinking less and less, but one moment i felt i was going to die... Most people don't know how an addiction begins, so let me tell people, an alcoholic is not necessarily someone that drinks a lot of alcohol, it is someone that CAN'T stop drinking... It was too late for me when i noticed that drinking few beers today only to be sure that i would have beers the next day was a sign of alcoholism... Lot of people simple "can't" stop drinking, and they think they are alright because "at least i'm not drinking a lot"... NO!!! ONCE AGAIN, if you CAN'T stop drinking and strategize ways to have drinks always available, you are becoming (or already are) alcoholic!

Dave as Phil's ex brother in law thanks for the concise decription of his life.

@saultube44

Жыл бұрын

My condolences, get therapy if you haven't, it affects deeply the immediate family and friends. He gave us ZIP Format and could have been a great Light for programers, he needed further Therapy and support, probably lifetime, but Therapy can make people better for sure, over the long run. Cheers mate

@keithv708

Жыл бұрын

I will keep your family in my prayers

@MyAmazingUsername

Жыл бұрын

Did Phil ever regret stealing the ARC source code and painting SEA as a "corporate enemy"? BBS The Documentary shows SEA's solo programmer crying because Phil's theft and lies ruined him.

@saultube44

Жыл бұрын

@@MyAmazingUsername Well, the ARC programmer, wasn't an addict, didn't follow the torturous road of an addict, kept doing his work, and finally sold his tech to a Japanese, not an US company, and probably made good money, he could have started over, get a job anywhere; Phil was being tortured to death; I think Phil got punished way more than enough

@tallbrian100

Жыл бұрын

​@@MyAmazingUsername Sea was warm and happy with the program they were selling and the money they were making. Like everything in the computer world improve or die. Phil built a better mouse trap and the people that needed it liked the faster speed of the Pkware ARC program. To settle the lawsuit PKware paid sea lots of money, which they accepted so there was nothing for him regret. I think the regret was on Sea's part they misjudged Phil and the market. Phil had secured a agreement with the largest bulletin board in the world at the time ExcPC to convert all of its files from ARC to the new ZIP format after the settlement. That sealed Sea's Arc programs fate.

I lived through everything you talked about. Started with an acoustic coupler, ran a BBS, was part of Fidonet, wrote "doors" for BBS's. One thing you didn't mention: Phil needed a flag inside the Zip file format to signify that it was a ZIP formatted file. He used his initials. Today and forever more, if you open a ZIP file in a text editor or hex editor, you will see, right near the beginning, the letters "PK".

@skilletpan5674

Жыл бұрын

Yes he took that idea from msdos (and I'm sure it was done before mados). Exe files use the 'MZ' or 'ZM' bytes at the start of the file to tell dos it's an executable.

@redstone0234

Ай бұрын

@@skilletpan5674 this is the magic number concept on files

@skilletpan5674

Ай бұрын

@@redstone0234 Yes, the magic number "concept" has been around for a very long time. In the context of this video though. Windows and DOS are good enough to reference. The 'MZ' or 'ZM' are not numbers. It's actually a reference to the author of the code: Mark Zbikowski. His initials 'MZ' or the reverse 'ZM' (although almost no one uses 'ZM' are the accepted values to indicate that it's an exefile. Many other operating system file systems had the "magic number" as meta data in the actual file system and not an "ugly hack" like this. Cp/m,Apple DOS/Macintosh OSes,C64 etc all used meta data. I'm not sure why DOS used 3 letters as the metadata but then just decided to ignore it. That's a discussion for another day.

I had some goth/punk friends that started a small ISP and BBS. They rented an office because it already had a phone system installed, so they could set up a server which supported multiple modem connections. Over time they branched out into providing ISP service and web hosting. I had no idea about this. They were just some guys I hung out with on weekends. Then all the sudden they were all moderately wealthy, heaving sold their ISP/webhost to some big company. Most of them were not very wise with their new found wealth, being in their early 20's. They were part of my alcoholic social scene. I was often over at their house, and they at mine. Frequently they would buy $100+ of liquor to make some elaborate mixed drinks and everyone would get blotto. It took me another 15 years of drinking myself blind before my health started getting so bad I had to quit. Been sober 13 years.

@marcwolf60

11 ай бұрын

Sadly there is no handbook on how to be wealthy.. and safe.

@MatthewCarven

10 ай бұрын

I worked at BetterNet here in Austfailure, we provided dial up internet access @28.8kbps and eventually 56k (using webexcell modems as they were one of the few devices that could actually TX @ 56k, the originals being Banksia modems that we sold off to customers as part of our upgrade before the digital multiplexing pre adsl days) I got my job at BetterNet by writing the command and control software that ran the internet café out front (Lock & unlock workstations, show a timer/cost indication on the client machines, and all linked using TCP/IP sockets, and written in VB6) this proved my worth to the guy who owned BetterNet, I was offered a traineeship and due to laws about people seeking work being required to accept "any suitable work" I was employed for at least 12 months @ 5.90$ an hour while charging out my work for 66$ an hour, I can tell you there were no shortages of drugs in my workplace altho coming to work while "high" was highly frowned upon. I still battle addiction to this day, but I ask you, do they medicate ADHD under the public health system in your country? (Actually now I question if the Banksia modems were 33.6 but I think it was 28.8kbps)

When I was a young programmer, I discovered that alcohol made being around people much easier. I went way over the line so many times I ended up with a lot of bad habits. The freedom I enjoy today was hard won and only exists because I am constantly vigilant. Given the right stresses I could slip back in a second. My best friend couldn't pull out of it and died young. People need to hear stories like these. Stay strong and thanks for sharing.

@medes5597

Жыл бұрын

Same here. Alcohol and coke "helped" me work and be social. AA saved my life - but AA isn't the only way, and anything that gets someone out of that be it self help or a program or just vigilance.

@JamesKaraganis

Жыл бұрын

I was never (and am still not) a particularly social person: I survived the COVID lockdowns with relative ease since my wife and I really aren't the kind of people who need to have others around all the time. Working from home? Pfft ... I did that for twenty+ years as a contract developer even before starting my current full-time job. I'm in my sixties now, but when I started programming in the mid-seventies, I never turned to alcohol to help me fit in. First, as someone who was trying to use his intellect make a living it made no sense to dull my thinking processes, and secondly drinking never had much effect on me unless I drank an insane amount. Decades later my doctor told me research had determined that some people's livers metabolize alcohol at an accelerated pace, and that I was likely one of those people. Consequently drinking (other than as a strictly social affair) is of little use to me. Too bad I suppose, but the effects just don't last long enough to be worth the effort. One of my best friends, on the other hand, is an end-stage alcoholic. He was on the way out when his sister and brother-in-law finally got him to go for the inpatient therapy he so desperately needed. And it took:, he's been dry for nearly twenty years because he was made to realize, down at some deep level, that he simply cannot drink, and that if he starts he will die.

@PBeringer

Жыл бұрын

Too right! I'm presently pulling up on methadone ... and trying to complete a research degree. This video really gave me some extra motivation to not waste the chance(s) to do something really special with my life.

@whitenuttergoku7310

Жыл бұрын

Helps the party animal come out at parties. Alcoholic spirit used to summon party demons

@PBeringer

Жыл бұрын

@@whitenuttergoku7310 Isn't "alcoholic spirit" a tautology? Hehe 😜

Outstanding! There is so much history from the early days that we can't afford to lose. I still remember my first $700 long distance phone bill for 'a little' BBS use decades later. Compression archiving was a god-send.

@appliedengineering4001

Жыл бұрын

Too bad that you didn't learn how to phone phreak. After I ran up my parents phone bill to over $400 back in 1987. I soon learned that if I wanted to keep up my BBS habit. I had to figure out how to get rid of that rather nasty side effect called a phone bill. I lived out on a in rural area so I didn't have the option of calling any local BBS. Everything was long distance. On a positive note, those rural telephone systems were old and very easy to hack. Once I was able to finally get rid of that unwanted "side effect" of BBSing. It really open up the world to me. I was now able to call BBS from all over the world with the phone company now picking up the tab. Because I was able to call long distance BBS's for free. I starting carrying a lot of fidonet mail bag traffic through my system.

Phil Katz's story in school sounds like mine. I was a loner in high school (class of '81). At the time, I felt like I was the only one going through. I now know that there are lots of kids going through this. I think we as a society need to make sure that the "loners" never feel like they are isolated. Fortunately fir me, I have a string will and never had to turn to alcohol, but there are plenty of others who aren't as fortunate as me. The sad ending of Phil's life just broke my heart.💔💔💔 R.I.P. Phil. Your contribution is here to stay.

Minor note, I spoke with Thom Henderson a number of years ago. ARC was originally meant as a utility to package their software. It was not meant to be a stand alone product.

@ricomariani

Жыл бұрын

Interestingly I wrote a very similar program for similar reasons -- multi disk archive for lots of small files -- to use as the core of a setup for another piece of software. I think there was a lot of this going on.

@kennethng8346

Жыл бұрын

@@ricomariani a group of people with a similar scratch to itch, will often develop a similar solution.

Wow this one really hit home for me. They say only an alcoholic can understand another alcoholic. Celebrated being sober 12 years last week. Many thanks for sharing.

@stevenbrannen1568

Жыл бұрын

Congratulations!! I known Bill for 20 years. Great guy.

@sophiacristina

Жыл бұрын

Congratulations! I'm still struggling... :(

@craigr306

Жыл бұрын

@@sophiacristina keep going you can do it

@tenoki

Жыл бұрын

congratulations to 12 years on your recovery journey!

@sophiacristina

Жыл бұрын

@@craigr306 Tyyy... :)

Thanks, Dave, for a compassionate discussion of the triumphant and tragic life of Phil Katz. Being an older programmer myself, I remember those days… And he brought back some things I had forgotten like the zoo format.

Thank you for not just telling this tragic story, but also using it as a chance to encourage people to get help.

Holy hell...I just realized that today I finally learned what the PK meant in PKZIP.... duh!

@ernstoud

Жыл бұрын

Use a hex editor and have a look at the two first bytes of every zip file.

@JohnPMiller

Жыл бұрын

Me too.

Dave, the social messages behind your history lessons are wonderful. I see exactly why you relate to The Friendly Giant.

"That so many felt a connection to a man...one of the paradoxes of being an introverted engineer who's products wind up being used by millions of people." That's very poignant Mr Autistic-Man-Who-Wrote-Task-Mnager-and-zip-folders. When I do the three-finger salute, I'm saluting you.

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

I thought the three finger salute was an insult, or am I thinking of the wrong thing?

@katbryce

Жыл бұрын

@@anon_y_mousse Three finger salute is Ctrl-Alt-Del

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

@@katbryce That still sounds like an insult. Maybe it's a Windows thing.

@lauram5905

Жыл бұрын

@@anon_y_mousse it is a Windows thing, it launches the very task manager that Dave wrote, so in a way, they're saying they pay their respects every time they have to use it with the wordplay of saluting (not the one finger one), like we're paying our respects to PK with zip files

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

@@lauram5905 Ah okay, that makes sense. My knowledge of the three finger salute usually included someone saying to read between the lines.

I had been working on IBM 360/370 for years and was an early adopter of PCs. My first was a Compaq sewing machine :) I added a Hayes 300 modem and spent many hours exploring the BBSs of Atlanta. You brought back many memories of those years including FidoNet and the PIA of carrying that lug-able when I went on business trips. I got to talk with Mr. Katz once when the company I worked for needed a license so we could distribute the unzipper. I remember the ARC vs ZIP days and read with shock and sadness of Phil's passing. Such a tragedy that he never was able to fully enjoy his life but ended up alone in a liquor bottle.

@glasser2819

Жыл бұрын

it's sad that Katz creation did not bring him prosperity, only severe distress

@RealFableFox

Жыл бұрын

@@glasser2819 Are you watching the same video? It does bring him prosperity. It just that he is who he is, and his father death made it worse.

I'd heard the stories around Zip files, but this is a very complete and even-handed telling of it. I've got hundreds of Zip files, and Zip is the underlying format behind dozens more. It also makes me extremely glad I never took up drinking.

I considered myself a friend of Phil's, in that we had a beer and a laugh together. I'm sure he considered me a lightweight, but was always respectful. I considered the problem with coke to be as harmful as the alcoholism, revisionists seem to imply otherwise. He partied with several strippers and dancers, but there was one who stuck with him to the bitter end. It still brings tears to my eyes after all these years to remember how she suffered through the end game. Thanks for putting this out there.

@svenvandevelde1

Жыл бұрын

Why did he consider you a lightweight?

@davidg4288

Жыл бұрын

@@svenvandevelde1 "Lightweight" is a term for a light drinker. I think it's considered a mild insult by people who can hold their booze. But Charles is alive and Phil is not, so being a lightweight drinker worked for him in the long run! To be fair I think most people's coding skills would also be pretty lightweight compared to Phil Katz. I hope that girlfriend of his came out of it OK. I know a woman whose ex husband falls off the wagon periodically, and she is kind enough to go over to his place and bring him food and coffee to help him recover from his binge. She doesn't have to do that! I've met the guy when he's sober and he seems perfectly fine.

@svenvandevelde1

Жыл бұрын

@@davidg4288 Give them the blue book. There is a way out. And help can be given. It's an amazing story you have there.

@ParkerSaint

Жыл бұрын

So he abused cocaine as well?

@charlesdubats3740

Жыл бұрын

@@ParkerSaint Cocaine was found during a police search of one of his abandoned apts. His end behavior seemed to me like a mix of alcoholism related depression and binges of coke. I knew him in early days, when we worked under the Allen-Bradley clock. Then he was a genius coder and quite pleasant.

Lots of memories come back when you talk about "PKZip" ! I remember when I was introduced to it....many many years ago (late 80's) I couldnt believe my eyes when I move a big file 2mb, to another machine using PKZip and a floppy disk! Now, we dont think twice about using zip files on any OS.

Given the relationship between PK and Arc, it's interesting to me that later on, PKWare was really going after people for using PKZip/PKUnzip without buying a copy, and others without paying a license for implementing the zip format. At least, that's how I remember it from the time.

Being an old timer, the use of BBS systems with acoustic couplers at 110 baud was where I started. I'd heard of Phil Katz and I remember the change from .arc to .zip formats too. It's sad to hear how Phil's demons caught up with him. It seems John McAfee also had his own demons. Thank you for telling Phil's story and sharing where those with similar problems can find help.

@StachiBCNR33

Жыл бұрын

What a time to be alive. Still remember setting up my upload virus scanner (THD ProScan) with so much archivers... rar, arc, zip, uc2 - Hell, I even can't remember them all. I shiyed away from computers as a hobby in the late 90's but only have good memories of that time.

@wclifton968gameplaystutorials

Жыл бұрын

John McAfee was killed by the US Government, Phil Katz however was killed by himself but yes they both had their own demons and no doubt they were both high for most of the day when they were alive.

@jnagarya519

Жыл бұрын

I began in 1985 with a Commodore 64 and 300 baud modem. I came to prefer LZH.

@MandrakeDCR

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I was a timex sincleair 1000 starter - my first modem ever was 300 baud, manual push button connect (no coupler needed, just line passthrough) on a color computer 2. Those were the days :)

@rricci

Жыл бұрын

@@MandrakeDCR I miss those days too. Especially missed those days war dialing a popular BBS hoping to get the latest warez.

Thanks Dave. That was well done, and told a story that people interested in computing history should know. I especially appreciate your props to David Huffman. To really solve a problem like that, and then prove that your solution / proof is optimal is an incredible intellectual triumph. More people should know his name.

If I didn't used to edit 20-30 hours of footage a week I wouldn't even notice that you edit, let alone how smooth the edits are. I don't know if you plan ahead of time by practicing a specific pose, but aside from maybe 5 pixels and ~9 frames of dropped audio, which is trivial enough to make Hollywood jealous, I wouldn't have even noticed. Hats off to you and your perfectionism, if I wasn't an autistic perfectionist myself I would have never looked twice.

@Slicerwizard

Жыл бұрын

Eh? The edits are clean, but they're easy to see. Are you using a tiny phone or what?

@scality4309

Жыл бұрын

Yeah? The edits are clear?

@TheDiner50

Жыл бұрын

I think it is trying to point out as a example around 1:29? base operation system/ Cut. New recording line up and continue at 1:30. Yea I did not notice it until you said that there where edits in the video where his face was main stage. I had to go back and check if this was some kind of strange bot message or something going on. But no this is dam tight recording/edit work. Placement is right but there is clear pose differences from fame to frame. But sure was clean enough to fool basically anyone not looking close at it. You got to be hunting for the splice. And considering how much I distaste frame drops I still did not notice it since it really lined up to well to even catch it. Even the lights in the background did not reveal the split obviously. But the pose I really do not think is Hollywood like.. Positioning spot on somehow? And timing spot on. :) It is honestly scary to think about the effort put on such a tiny thing that really is more work then anyone can ask from such good content as is. And yes everyone needs to be a 'it'. Do not like it but we need to be objective in times like this. Since feeling might be hurt getting a 50/50 guess wrong.

Alcohol abuse doesn’t just hurt the drinker. I lost a friend to it, and nearly lost another all in the space of three months. I remember sitting in a side room with the nurses at the local intensive care unit pouring out an embarrassment of tears. This was in January and even now writing this I still tear up. Worst thing is, they go back to drink even when they’ve been that close to death. I’m teetotal, don’t smoke either and drink has indirectly had me on my knees. I just have to speak up whenever I see mention of it in such dire circumstances. 😭

Thanks, Dave. That was a kind way of speaking of someone that isn’t with us anymore but was wholly significant.

I grew up in the BBS, modem, arc, zip days, so this was pure nostalgia gold! But very sad ending to it all. Thank you Dave. Love your channel :)

Thank you! This is a wonderful account. You mentioned doing this when I complained you didn’t mention Phil. You’ve gone above and beyond, sir.

Thank you! I remember hearing about his death, but never knew much beyond "The author of Zip died". While it was a sad and preventable way to go, this video sort of reminded me of the days of Paul Harvey telling us, "Now you know; the rest of the story"...

And for those that didn't know, that's why the first two characters of a zip file are PK.

Dave, Thanks for the well-done piece on Phil Katz. I knew the software well but never got the full story on what became of Phil. I was the author of LU, Library Utility, that could pack small files into big ones, on the CP/M OS. It was used by a number of CP/M BBSes. It did no compression, so you had to squish stuff before adding it, but otherwise ticked the boxes for getting a whole package transmitted without losing pieces.

@veiledzorba

Жыл бұрын

Yep, used LU on both CP/M as well as MS-DOS. SEA certainly didn't create the concept!

A sad story sensitively told. This is an excellent channel, especially appreciated by those of us that lived (and worked) through the dawning of the computer age. Keep up the good work.

Growing up with DOS and zip files, I never knew the tragic history of its innovator, other than his name. This is very enlightening, great video!

Thank you, Dave, for publishing this. It's a sad and touching story and I truly appreciate knowing this story.

Ahhh, I still remember running one of the multi-node bbs's in San Diego in the late 80's into the early 90's, first using TriBBS then switching to Renegade BBS. It was one of the fidonet servers in the area, and still remember conversations I had with people across the world via fidonet, with no long distance used. Much fun. Lot's of software and online games. Operation Overkill, Tradewars, Legend of the Red Dragon. Those were good times. 22 Acacia Avenue.

I must say, I had totally forgotten about Phil Katz, PKarc, SEA, etc. I still remembered PKZip, but had forgotten what the PK stood for anymore. But I had not known about his tragic end of life at all, so that's completely new information to me, and hard to imagine there was so much tragedy behind such a tiny ubiquitous utility.

The 8 part BBS Documentary from some years back was awesome, I still return to rewatch it from time to time.

@ChuckVenter

Жыл бұрын

Which documentary are you referring to?

I love the PKWare/SEA story. Mostly because I remember living through it. I even wrote a few "conversion" utilities to change out all my .ARC files to .ZIP (I think I had another one in there at one point too). I've always thought about the stellar Phil Katz could make these days had he not died. He was definitely a light that shined too bright and burned out just as quick.

@mrkitty777

Жыл бұрын

Dave explained how to earn money from suicide very carefully.

@ethanpoole3443

Жыл бұрын

I had written one as well for RBBS-PC at the height of the PKZIP vs. ARC saga. It performed the conversion, updated files sizes, looked for instances where a file may have already been converted but not recorded (e.g. still had the old ARC extension in the download index and would update the file name to ZIP). It was worth converting to ZIP just for the modest gains in available drive space at the time and for the small improvements in download times (although the DSZModem download protocol, of the same era, could achieve similar performance levels on non converted files and had better error detection and recovery and could resume a failed partial download, but not everyone had that download protocol available since it was proprietary, but only SYSOPs had to pay for the utility and it was free to the downloader). I also wrote a popular utility for generating and maintaining the download index for RBBS-PC, SuperFMSLister, and made a few bug fixes to RBBS-PC until I had to shutdown my BBS in 1991 because it was too much of a challenge to keep it going while also moving a number of times in college and dealing with rapidly failing physical and mental health from years of abuse and trauma growing up (like our channel host here, I am also on the autistic spectrum as well as non-binary…none of which really fit in with a small rural and hyperconservative town and high school in the 1980s where I never was accepted, then add in the religious abuse of Evangelical Fundamentalism and the great harm they did to many of us). Behind nearly every story of alcohol or substance abuse/addiction there will be an equally sad and tragic story of considerable past abuse and/or neglect, usually in childhood, and the substance abuse is simply their go-to coping mechanism for the resulting stress, anxiety, triggers, and unwanted memories, not to mention that awful abusive inner voice that perpetually haunts us as survivors. I was fortunate in that my go-to coping strategy has always been that of disappearing deeply into my hobbies (though one might be surprised how much I have spent over my 50 years of life on said hobbies…lol! Ironically, that is another common coping mechanism), though not always great that I often equally disappeared from the rest of civilization as it had become too difficult to be around others much (something further complicated by being a true empath and thus taking on the emotions and feelings of anyone in proximity to me…which can result in very confused feelings and emotions if you struggle to separate your own from everyone else’s…all the result of an overdeveloped empathy network from childhood where it was a coping strategy to permit anticipating the future needs of others to either avoid abuse ourselves or protect others from similar abuse as we tend to be very protective of others whose pain we also experience). But that was my saving grace as God knows I have just about every conceivable risk factor for addiction (including severe chronic pain) myself. My greatest challenge right now is reaching out to my brother-in-law whose years of alcohol addiction finally resulted in his first DUI offense a couple weeks ago while driving with his son, my 10 year old nephew, in the vehicle and trying to convince him to finally seek professional help, both for the drinking that is beyond his control and for the childhood trauma he has spent his life trying to bury and ignore before both consume him from within as I do not wish to see him continue to self-destruct and continue to harm himself, and quite possibly innocent others. As empaths we are usually quite good at reaching out to others and disarming them, but in cases like these that also means leveraging our own past histories of childhood trauma which make those conversations especially difficult as I am still in the process of trying to process my past trauma and abuse from numerous sources myself after starting therapy three years ago. But there are very few things I will not do to try and save others, even if such is sometimes quite hard on me for a period of days.

Alcohol can be dangerous stuff, especially for loner introverts. Thanks for shedding light on this.

@quintessenceSL

Жыл бұрын

It's a weird world where some of the most freely available means to self-medicate are also the most dangerous (nevermind we are a heavily medicated society now). Also point people to the Sinclair method as most rehab amounts to voodoo.

I ran a Fidonet BBS in Tacoma in the early to late 90's, I was not familiar with this story. Zip was everything, the file downloads, yes, but even more important was the nightly echo and netmail transfers. Thousands of messages would be "tossed" to their echo using squish or gecho or fmail, and then the callers would bundle up their subscribed echos for offline reading, done by zip. Along came pak and arj and rar and others, but zip was alwas king after the brief arc stint. This was really a good episode, brought back so many memories.

@Randrew

Жыл бұрын

I ran a simple messaging BBS in '85 and '86 on a TRS-80 Model III. I wrote the software in BASIC. I only had a dumb modem, so I bought a TI (phone) ring detector IC from Radio Shack, ran its square wave output to a TTL input on the Trash-80 to see that the phone was ringing, used another TTL output to energize a reed relay to take the "phone off the hook".

Wow, hearing about such a large technical chunk of my life put back into human terms was a revelation.

Happy to see a new upload. I was actually checking your channel past two days. The level of insight and your storytelling are a gift. Hope all is well, best wishes.

Well told story ... and your enunciation gave it a sort of Raymond Chandler vibe. Very good indeed. 😀👍

What a ride from nostalgia for my own youth and the heady days of FidoNet, up to a heartbreaking and seemingly entirely unnecessary tragedy. I appreciated your even-handed and sober treatment of topics that would easily be sensationalized. I was lucky enough to quit alcohol before it put me in jail or anything so drastic, though the hidden cost has been steeper than I want to admit. Well done delivering some interesting and affecting history along with a kind, non-judgmental signpost to a possible better life for those who suffer as Mr. Katz did.

Great post Dave explaining the sad story of something we take for granted and use everyday. Would love to hear about your implementation of zip for Windows!

Whoa, Dave! The way you explain the history of the subject is how I wish I could do it. Your channel is the best, most informative show for things I didn't even know I was interested in. I just watched a video about a guy I didn't know for some 'mundane' software I've never had any interest in learning about - and found the entire episode fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to put this together and share it with us!

Just an extra couple of technical points. First of all the newer pkzip file format was rather good. It was an end file format meaning you scanned ro the end of the file to read the file table and other important meta data etc. The compressed data was stored after the small file header. ARC and most other compression software where still stuck in Unix tape backup land and didn't do that. This made zips fast when it came to manipulating them like adding new files or deleting files from the archive. The second point was that further improvements to compression where added and it wasn't for a few years till other compressors started to do better or where close. Most of the time it was just the pure speed of compressing and decompressing though that made pkzip the standard. ARJ,UC2,RAR and a couple of others all had their better features than pkzip but most of the time pkzip was good enough and just faster than them.

Thanks for the history. These damn kids today need to know more of it.

Ah, having lived through this I'm rubbing my hands in anticipation of how you'll lay this out! Oh yeah, you're talking about ARC - this is going to be good. I'll never forget when the switch away was made. Lots of space saved and we dropped them like a hot potato! No one was happy when they went after Phil, it ticked everyone off. Folks switched formats in just days and ARC was a distant memory... Sad to hear that Phil's life went so badly. My mother died much the same way he did and it wasn't pretty. I appreciate the way you handled the subject.

I absolutely love how you ended the video, I myself have struggled with alcohol use over the years and my heart weeps for the outcome of Phil's journey. I wish his family my condolences, and I hope he is at rest now 💝

I've watched many of your videos and am a subscriber. I appreciate your non-hysterical way of talking, with a calm, even cadence. I like the fact that you don't dumb down the topic. And as a user of both MS DOS, and every version of Windows including Win 10, I find your commentary very interesting.

Being a geek from the 8-bit days and a recovering alcoholic myself I strongly relate to this story and thank you for presenting it very fairly and compassionately. I've always felt that we nerds are in general very susceptible to substance abuse issues. We are most often very socially challenged individuals who find comfort and peace in the orderly, predictable and controllable world of technology. The chaotic, emotional erratic world in which we must function is quite overwhelming much of the time. It becomes difficult to shut down the mind that needs understanding and order, trying to process things that seem so completely confusing leading to feelings of overstimulation and exhaustion. When all of these factors are combined with a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism and substance abuse we have the perfect storm for issues. It's great to be sober but I did have to learn how. I still love my 8-bit technology. Arduino anyone?

I appreciate your wrap-up and providing information on how to help . As someone who's lost family to alcoholism and been encompassed by it my whole life, I find this to be an important topic.

Great video, Dave! I worked at PKWARE for a number of years and it was very interesting to dive into some of the extremely old parts of the code repositories to look at some of the initial PKZIP implementation.

@UXXV

Жыл бұрын

Can you tell us what sort of things you found?

@sharkternup

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, I cannot get into the specific details of it, but much of the original code is still around and used by some old systems.

@caeser70

Жыл бұрын

Curious when you worked there, I was there 1990-2009. Dont remember your name

@sharkternup

Жыл бұрын

It was after 2009

@MattLittleX

3 ай бұрын

hiiiiiiiii@@caeser70 - just got turned onto Dave's channel the other day. Was watching his mainframe video and then schooled a bit to find this one. A slow async reunion in the comments it is!

Dave, you have a wonderful gravitas and incredibly well informed background. These videos are filling in the gaps of my knowledge - I was around at the time but news didn’t travel like it does today and was usually hidden somewhere in a magazine, twisted by piss poor journalism. Thanks for producing this excellent content

It is sad how often it happens to people like Phil who are so creative and intelligent but there mind just collapses in on itself .

Challenge: what was the correct response to the Fidonet "YOOHOO" handshake? I nearly died laughing when I was reading through some logs on my 4-line BBS. Love this sort of deep dive history by someone who was there, even writing the code. You must feel somewhat proud of how many computers your code it running on! Cheers!

What a sad story, but told very respectfully. Nicely done.

Thanks Dave. It's good to remember others and their contributions to our lives both in the past and today, no matter how large or small they might have been. Btw- I really have been enjoying your channel for the past few years. I don't think you or I ever crossed paths at work or otherwise, but your stories bring back a lot of fond memories. :) Thank you!

Bless all the people who help alcoholics. I struggle with health issues and I dedicate my life to helping my sick parents. It's a VERY hard life medically and there have also been terrible tragedies in the family. It's been extremely rough. My family would tell you that I was the most caring person but deep down that's not true. I've seen how big problems can get and how rough medical problems can get. Ours are related to odds and a little bit of life choices. But none of these choices were destructive. I struggle so hard to help that I think if it was due to destructive choices I'm not sure I could stay the course. I even went as far as to tell my dad this when he was living with a tumor and it's effects rather than getting surgery. I used a fictional case of alcoholism saying "I'll drive you to alcohol rehab and support you all the time but if your just looking for me to hold your hair while you throw up in the toilet I'm not your man. In otherwords please love yourself so that my help will accomplish something. Bless the people helping destructive people.

growing up, squeezing files into a bunch was an everyday task and necessity. of course we all still do it to this day. I always wondered about what and who was behind this. too bad Phil's life ended tragically. thanks Dave for this wonderful memorial. I'm going to say "Cheers!" to Phil and at the same time go to be careful 🍻😎

@eadweard.

Жыл бұрын

What bunchsqueezer did you use?

Good for you to include where to get help. I have been down the alcoholism road and it is a very tough place to be. For me knowing where to call when that moment of lucidity came saved my life. Its been 15 years and it almost seems like another life to me now. I have seen Phils story play out many times and it is always very sad - suicide in ultra slow motion.

Ran a local BBS in Kansas City until 1994. We used Remote Access and eventually Major BBS. That story is equally dark 🙂 Towards the end of our run we had 2 lines and were on Maxnet and Fidonet before we finally decided that it was no longer feasible to run the BBS. RIP "The Electronic Oblivion BBS".

While I never met the man myself, he was literally a friend of a friend, so I heard about it back when it happened. Walked past the PKWARE offices in the Grand Avenue mall innumerable times, back in the day.

That came across as being very respectful! I can imagine many ways to tell this story disrespectfully. I enjoyed this. As an hommage to all unsung heroes, such as yourself, from now on I will never again right click a compressed file and select "Extract all". No, instead I'll double click the file and drag the content out of the folder, as if it was any ordinary folder. Thanks for all your contributions, past, present and future! (Greetings from Sweden)

First video to actually make me like and subscribe on the spot. Thank you so much for all your insight from that era, and for making the stories very fascinating.

Thanks for the unexpected tangent into the history of BBSs. My uncle was one of the enthusiasts running a BBS at home and was involved with FidoNet distribution. Seeing those screens reminded me of the hours watching his computer alternatively make and take calls, distributing those packets.

The creator met a tragic end, but the creation survived and flourished and multiplied as the container format for several other file formats e.g. jar, msoffice x, etc. One thing I wished he'd be around to fix is the default encoding used for the filenames. It's a constant source of headache when you have non-ascii filenames when everything 21st century uses utf-8.

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

Жыл бұрын

Quoting from the Info-ZIP zip(1) man page: “Unicode. Though the zip standard requires storing paths in an archive using a specific character set, in practice zips have stored paths in archives in whatever the local character set is. This creates problems when an archive is created or updated on a system using one character set and then extracted on another system using a different character set. When compiled with Unicode support enabled on platforms that support wide characters, zip now stores, in addition to the standard local path for backward compatibility, the UTF-8 translation of the path. This provides a common universal character set for storing paths that allows these paths to be fully extracted on other systems that support Unicode and to match as close as possible on systems that don't.” So you see, whatever the original spec might have said, Unicode has managed to worm its way in anyway.

What a sad story.. I used zip and arc on the Atari ST and b ack in the day I wrote a simple shell for them, I didn't realise about Phil Katz and his problems. Thanks for the informative video.

Just discovered this channel. It's great! This video was a bit of a trip down the memory lane to my time as a preteen computer nerd; connecting to BBSs with a 4800bps modem; command line prompts (most of which I still remember ... certainly all of DOS); and, of course, the emergence of PKZip. I had always wondered what the "PK" in PKZip stood for ... I shall wonder no more. Excellent video!

Wow! My hats off to you on the composition and editing of this video! An excellent documentary and tribute!

@DavesGarage

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

Kind of reminded me a little of the story of John McAfee, thought I think John actually went out the way he wanted, shaping his story until the end...

Thank you for telling this story! I had no idea of the history behind the man of ZIP.

The fact you actually gave advice on the issue at the end is admirable. You're a different breed of KZreadr, thanks!

@DavesGarage

10 ай бұрын

I appreciate that!

Very nicely done, this. Excellent effort, Dave.

Dark indeed, poor guy, slow suicide... even the best compression to this day: 7-Zip, is based on ZIP Format. RIP

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

How do you figure it's based on it with different compression techniques and file formats?

@saultube44

Жыл бұрын

@@anon_y_mousse Wikipedia

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

@@saultube44 Ah, might want to be careful with WP, they still sometimes have incorrect information even on technical topics. 7Zip uses a completely different file format. While they can use some of the same compression algorithms, such as deflate, and they both include an algorithm based off of lz77, in practice they rarely use the same algorithm on the same files. 7Zip will even produce slightly better compression for deflate files. However, none of the algorithms that are shared were invented by the creators of either program.

@saultube44

Жыл бұрын

@@anon_y_mousse Hmm, interesting, but how do you know? Yes Wikipedia isn't meant to be complete, just a reference; anyway, my comment is right

@anon_y_mousse

Жыл бұрын

@@saultube44 Well, no, actually, because it's not based on the ZIP format at all. Sharing one or two compression algorithms in common that were created before either program existed is not based on. Also, the file structure is different.

I remember my CEO saying the BBS was a fad. LOL.

Thanks for making videos like this one about the history of software. You tell it in a humorous way and keep it entertaining. Please keep it up! Thanks Dave :-)

This is such a sad story to hear about It's been years since I've had anything to drink I love the connection all your stories seem to make with reality and then there's stuff like this, that really just gets to the point

Very interesting history lesson! Thank you for it.

You’re a good guy Dave. Thank you for doing what you do.

Thanks for this Dave. It was both entertaining AND informative. Like you, I lived through those days, and it's nice to see the WHOLE story mentioned. I think of folks like SEA, Gary Kildall and others who came THIS close ....only to end up footnotes to history, to be underrated heroes - without whom the tech legends everyone know would not have had shoulders to stand upon.

When you have a drink or some other substance in your hand, you're not forced to look at that deep place of sadness and unresolved pain we all have, but some worse than others. Even once you stop enjoying the buzz, even once you have obvious evidence it's killiing you and robbing your life of joy, it still seems preferable to getting up close and being with that yawning chasm of terrors that might tame and stop screaming so much if we'd only look at them and let them know things are okay now. Right here. In this present moment. Things are okay.

PKZip was a mainstay of the BBS era. I got to meet Phil at a Vern Buerg (there's a PC god) Gruel Fest at the French Cheese Factory (Petaluma) in the 90s. Still have the shirt. He was quiet and very affable. He sat and talked with us for hours. When I finished my coke, he went and got me another.... twice. He was a gentle genius. It was hard learning of his death in 2000. Ahhh... Opus/Binkleyterm on a PC running behind Desqview. Hand soldering NS16550 chips to serial boards so you could run a USR HST without errors. Fidonet... yup, 1:203/725 and a couple of points. Wynn Wagner III wrote Opus. I'm struggling to remember the name of the kid that wrote Binkleyterm - Vince something... he ended up working with you at Microsoft.

@darkpixel2k

Жыл бұрын

I loved the Wildcat 4.x days. At the peak, I had two phone lines in a hunt group. It was hard to find a time when someone wasn't connected and playing games or sending messages. When they moved to "WinServer" and got bought out around 1995 combined with the sudden popularity of the internet, that was the death knell. Over the span of a year I dropped from maybe a hundred users logging in at least once a month, to maybe five. It was a sad day when I had to pull the plug. It's been almost 30 years, but I still have an archive sitting on a ZFS file system of the entire BBS. I can actually fire it up in DOSBox and load every last game. It's a snapshot from three decades ago. I'm still in contact with a handful of the users that stuck it out to the bitter end.

@1971merlin

Жыл бұрын

3:632/533 says re-yo.

@skilletpan5674

Жыл бұрын

@@darkpixel2k you can get telnet/ssh board software. Maybe one emulates the doors or would let them run in dosemu?

@darkpixel2k

Жыл бұрын

@@skilletpan5674 yup. Around 2013 I had it running under DOSBox and exposed via SSH. It was a blast.

I met Phil Katz once in outside his company during lunch in ‘88 or ,’89. Just a chance meeting because I worked nearby. Small office in what looked like a strip mall in the office park. I think his mom was the CFO at the time, or did the books. Memory fading…

Very much enjoyed this style of video. Of course most of your videos are very good and very informative. Very neat to see how you were involved with ZIP.

These historic (semi)deep dives are great! Loving this format :)

Very interesting and very sad. On a side note, did you ever use Compuserve in the early days ? I found it was a great resource, totally destroyed when AOL bought it many years later.

@ChuckVenter

Жыл бұрын

In the days when modems were the only way to share information, CompuServe was a great tool! There were forums to discuss topics like Turbo Pascal, C, CPM, MSDOS and most any configuration of computer hardware. Mostly volunteer moderators kept things on track and put out the occasional flame wars. We paid by the minute to get connections over the Telenet, Tymnet and GE networks to get us into CompuServe (which was also pay service) across the country and into other countries. Fidonet and its BBS and international messaging addons were free to the end user as long as one of the BBS's were a local call.

Seems like the community really appreciated Phil’s business model - compressing files costs bank but decompressing is free…genius. He won the hearts and minds.

Dave, thanks for this nostalgia trip for me. I too started programming on calculators at school in 1974, and did a computer science degree in 1976 to 78. In 1986 I write a Pascal version of the LZW algorithm for my Amstrad 464. I still have on my old backups the DOS ARC, PKZIP etc, which I registered, including registering winzip90. Recently I installed it on WIndows 11 and my original key still worked.

I love the inside perspective you can share about the history of the pc. I’d be interested in your take on Microsoft’s stance on security and vulnerabilities over the years.

@dh2032

Жыл бұрын

and not putting Password on ZIP, file, why, why, it was in the sorsecode Microsoft actual put effect in taking the function out it been in the standard from day one, back in the Days PKzip, and probley the older versions too, ??? (even if the password was not the greatest, protection, it did stop the average snooper just click on it and the contents being all to see?

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

Жыл бұрын

If you care about security, you will use proper encryption.

I have an alcohol problem... I never touch the poison... You can pour all the pure alcohol I've drunk in my 50 years of living into a single shot glass. Sorry, 50 years and one day, as of the time I'm writing this

@Randrew

Жыл бұрын

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, but I've been absolutely sober since November 11, 2015. I can't say I wasn't living before that, but it was certainly a poor excuse for life.

@koppadasao

Жыл бұрын

@@Randrew I'm saying I've been sober since August 18th, 1972 😜

@TrueThanny

Жыл бұрын

It's only a poison if you drink too much of it. It has actual health benefits otherwise.

@koppadasao

Жыл бұрын

@@TrueThanny Anything is a poison, if you drink too much of it, even water. As for alcohol's claim of health benefits, those are easily acquired by other means. Any health benefits of alcohol are dwarfed by its dangers.

Interesting and harsh story. Thanks for doing it justice. And as someone with family who struggled with alcohol addition (admittedly before I was born), thanks for including the shoutout for alcoholism programs in general (and not just AA - AA helped my family member, but it's not the only way to get sober.)

Thx Dave. Phil was a friend of mine. He & I would talk regularly over compuserve. He helped me learn & fix code many times. I lived through this story & when he passed, it truly shook my life. I've missed him many times. Thank you Phil for friendship.

Strangely enough I almost never used pkzip, only to extract the files, then I'd use arj to re-archive files. I just always preferred ARJ. Sad story though. Some people change the world in a big way with such a tiny program.

@skilletpan5674

Жыл бұрын

Yes arj was superior depending on what you wanted to do. General archiving was better with arj. Did you ever use uc2 or rar?

@DJ-Daz

Жыл бұрын

@@skilletpan5674 RAR but only because it was more prevalent and of course free. I think too that back in those days, it depended on what the pirates used drove people to use a certain archive program.

You know what's a deeply funny & dark sense of humor, atleast for myself that is. The person that went on to basically hijack code, turn people against the original author(s) of 'said compression', & would play the legal dance game to avoid paying any fair share of success or lord forbid actually correct the public image or records. The humorous part for me, call it dark humor if ya will, is that the person who would steal, twist and destroy the creator of the very thing he built his entire success off of.... ended up dead, alone, and surrounded by as much a lost soul as you can get outside a criminal person. Honestly, he made his life, and I doubt he had any real friends outside his family. I wonder what would have happened if he had taken the moral road and instead of screwing the OG person over, he worked with them and we could have seen the product of coperation instead of theft & degeneracy.

Dave - difficult material delivered so well.

Oh I meant to say Dave, I'm a hard sell and particularly severe and critical with KZreadrs and channels, I can honestly say you are one of the few (count on 1 hand) that I didn't even wait for you to finish talking BB's and I'd subbed you are a very smart and well spoken creator and I look foreward to you educating me

Zip v Arc is a damend interesting story in how to manipulate public perception to win in the court of public opinion after losing in the court of law. Phil Kats is someone I do not like, or see in a positive light. I will leave my opinions to that. For those that do not know. SEA was a family run business. Little better tha na dude, his wife, a couple employees. It wasn't a 'giant' in any regard, but the prception of it being a faceless corp was due to it being known by that corporate name rather than 'phil katz' Make no bones of it. Phil was the bad guy here. His end being terrible to one side. The man lied and weasled and then ran someone else thorugh the mud the whole way through. I will say that it is good to shine a light on just how troubled Katz was. I have nothing but scorn for the man, but it is a shame he didn ot get help that he clearly needed.

@UXXV

Жыл бұрын

I remember well watching Jason Scott’s bbs documentary and the pk v sea part. I’d recommend anyone with an interest in things check it out here on KZread. Gripping stuff.

@Slicerwizard

Жыл бұрын

Yep, the correct guy drank himself to death. Almost makes one believe in karma.

@singletona082

Жыл бұрын

@@Slicerwizard Maybe so, but even with the wrong the man's done. I'ts not a thing I wish on anyone. I've seen what alcoholism does.