People have been asking for this link of the Barfield idea manifested. kzread.info/dash/bejne/eoGTsMSQYtDOibw.html

@iankclark

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for posting. I'm a newbie re Barfield so this might do the trick.

It causes me physical pain to think about how much I would enjoy being a part of this conversation.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

Let’s just do another one.

@corykobel6117

Жыл бұрын

Hey Ted, want to talk about it? I also have a burning desire to discuss this.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

@@corykobel6117 I’d be happy to host both of you to talk about it.

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

I’m also open to speaking more about these books & venture into the areas that made you want to take part. There’s no inner ring! We’re all on equal footing.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

@@kylemcnease1170 let’s do it!

I personally just finished the Abolition of Man and have just started my reread of the space trilogy. It's great to be participating in this at the same time as others.

Oh no. I want to watch this video but I don't want to do it until I re-read the book afresh!

@ChadTheAlcoholic

Жыл бұрын

It’s really amazing. I read it last year and my mind was blown

@dalibofurnell

Жыл бұрын

looking forward to your take

@mostlynotworking4112

Жыл бұрын

Jump to 1:06:00 for the tension of professor vs pastor. Reminds me of your Randos patterns

I love the closing statement of the Abolition of Man. It sums up much of the nature of the problem and the weakness inherent therein. “What if you were to see through the garden too? To see through everything is the same as not to see.”

Please continue these discussions on the Space Trilogy- soooo thought provoking ❤️

1:46:55 "I definitely haven't exhausted what I have to say" Is this possible to accomplish, Nate??? 🤣 I hope you never run out, cause I enjoy listening!

34:45 Critical. I think we need to be talking about this more. Looking for intentionally nefarious intent leads down too many unhelpful and deceptive paths, because the people you're looking at are themselves deceived. Deception is at the core, and that means finding a person or group of people to blame and fight shouldn't be the primary thing. But that doesn't mean that nefarious intent doesn't exist, nor does it mean that it should not be willfully and directly opposed. For us it's a question of emphasis and what you give your attention to. Very difficult subject, but we need to iron this out with the nuance it deserves, right away.

@corykobel6117

Жыл бұрын

38:10 Nate's got it here. Near-total agreement. @grailcountry

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

Agree that it’s a nuanced & tough conversation that we need to be having. I wanted to get more into the Dignity of Difference, but time doesn’t allow for everything in a free-flowing conversation. Would you say your point is similar to the notion that no one truly wants the bad/evil? They truly want the good but are deceived into thinking certain things are good when they are privations of the good? A similar idea/notion definitely goes back all the way to Socrates & likely before that. I don’t think I’d disagree that people can be & are deceived✅ We also have the book of Romans that suggests that this isn’t where the story necessarily ends. I think that’s why these Lewis books hit so hard. They’re reminders that some people do become bent (to borrow from Perelandra) & choose the bent path.

Love Karen’s historical perspective, very helpful to contextualize.

This conversation could be Dante’s very voice and seeing. It is the Madonna, who sends Santa Lucia, who sends Beatrice (hint, hint the feminine) who asks Virgil, the great Roman poet (hint pagan) who died before Christ was born and who wrote in BEAUTIFUL POETRY the story of the founding of Rome by the Trojans. Dante met Beatrice as a 9 year old at a neighbours’ gathering and again when he was 18. In La Vita Nuova Dante describes his love for Beatrice and declares that he is going to write about her in such a way as has never before been done. (Karen’s point about Venus). Dr Peterson describes falling in love as “opening the doors of perception”. Now that’s interesting. So love as opening to possibility. Love, logos and knowing in a The Master and His Emissary Balanced Way. Dr Rookmaaker said that Christianity is NOT a religion. It is life, reality. Every leaf declares the glory, the heaviness of creation. It is the heaviness that will bring us home. As Luke said this is a spiral. (So does Dr IMcG). Luke’s addition of seeing from “another vantage point” is gold, as it erases the notion of ‘progress’ persay, be it spiritual or otherwise. We are already there. We don’t need to go anywhere.

I LOVED this discussion! Especially the part about Merlin, very helpful, thank you! I am going to re-read that after the new insights from my last few years in this corner. I have had many young adults in my life and used to give That Hideous Strength as part of my gift to high school graduates until a few years ago when I switched to 12 Rules. I may have to mix it up. Looking forward to taking another look at Barfield too. Thank you all.

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

That’s really cool. If you don’t mind me asking, what made you decide to give them That Hideous Strength? I ask because when I was a teenager, someone gave me my first Lewis book. Looking back, I should do wish I knew why. I’m really thankful for someone encouraging me down that path. It’s really great to hear people are still doing this!

@sherieharkins2460

Жыл бұрын

@@kylemcnease1170 thanks! 🙂 it was a very insightful book for me to read as a young woman, and helped me to understand a little more about myself and the world we are all a part of, what to keep my eyes and heart and spirit open to (or not). My hope is to give a heads up to others in such a well illustrated and entertaining read. My grandfather was the first person to share Lewis with me, he died a few years later but I feel more connected to his wisdom when I am there. I bet you are looking forward to part II also! Blessings!

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

Wow! That’s really beautiful. We are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, and it sounds like your Grandfather is one of them. I’m glad he shared Lewis with you & that you’ve continued in that virtuous cycle.

@sherieharkins2460

Жыл бұрын

@@kylemcnease1170Loved what you said about appreciating the “others” perspective on Merlin, his presence always confused me a bit. The concepts of not fighting the enemy directly but being a vessel connected to original participation, such great food for thought! I am very excited to delve in again from a fresh vantage point. I also appreciated the comments at 15 minutes about Mark being tortured by things that were just slightly off, agree it was chilling. Cognitive dissonance in practice.

Love both books!

In the context of AI I think it would be valuable to chat about Consciousness and having that chat with David Bentley Hart would be rewarding.

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

100%

This was really great! Hope you all do many more this series. And just my two cents, Barfield will continue to be the subtext for much of what Lewis is trying to illustrate.

13:01 TLC as St Anne's is so wonderful! Hah! MacPhee is maybe the Peterson/Vervaeke character then...?

An idea: A car, for example, is not a bunch of complex mechanical parts. It is a beast of one kind or another. Cars have personalities, characteristics, and live in ecosystems. If some how you demolished all the 1/4 mile drag strips in the country, all the different varieties of Dragsters that only run in that environment would go extinct. Speaking of Dragsters, they are some kind of Monster. Like a car, AI, will never be just a complex system. It is some kind of beast. Maybe a Mimic or a Wise-old. Maybe a Collector or a Reaper. Will it be like us? Nothing could really be like us, just like nothing could really be a dog, except a dog. It will be something else. A type of beast.

1:51:00 YES Karen, thanks for this last point. This is the key. I think this is captured to some degree in the projects PVK and J Vervaeke have going. Estuary and Circling Dialogos are both training methods that we should implement! And this is much the same as cultivating the community/garden that Nate talked about.

That babble dinner party at the end of that hideous strength makes me think of Jordan Peterson Arc in October

@PilgrimMission

Жыл бұрын

Every time I read that chapter I kill myself laughing.

Great conversation. I need to read the books. The episode "I Mudd" from the original Star Trek series lays out the method to defeat language-based AI.

I also read the trilogy over 40 years ago and recently with the COVID response craziness reread That Hideous Strength. Lewis’ use of the NICE acronym had a chilling resonance with the current UK National institute for Health and Care Excellence. Prescient. (NICE). At the core the belief that mankind with technology could become transcendent was becoming writ large throughout the governments of the world. This led 33:08 to rereading the chapter on Pride in Mere Christianity and seeing our latest Tower of Babel.

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion have both esoteric and exoteric meanings. We hear one meaning, the gnostics with the gnossis heart the other and use their meaning for praxis.

I think I read those books around 1988.

Does anyone understand the point Nate was making vis a vis Jonathan’s conversation with Jordan Hall?

Hi Karen. Is there a link to the Barfield video Nate references near the end of the convo?

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

I pinned it as a comment.

1:30:49 🙌🙌🙌

There's gonna be a lot of things that AI can simulate but cannot replicate. Think of the baby monkeys who clung to the cloth covered metal "mother" figures which function as surrogate mothers. The love was all in one direction, as it were.

CHat GPT 4 can write poems. But it can only write poems by drawing on language. Human poets write poems by drawing on experience.

Much of the problem in the education system today can be traced back to the Marxism/Gnosticism/Hermeticism found in the works of Paulo Freire, which were implemented in the education system in the 80s and 90s. Many of the ideas in these two books can be found in their fullness in the Marxism and its subspecies of the past 150 years. (BTW-the works of James Lindsay are useful here)

Merlin is simply the representation of the consequences of ignoring the nature of reality eventually coming to bear in their full force upon you.

@WhiteStoneName

Жыл бұрын

Babel. Deny reality, reap the whirlwind.

How can Chat GPT and other language-based platforms absorb human spirit by absorbing the linguistic representations of it? Its language is self-referential. Our language refers to experience and perception of the world. That is the Rubicon that AI cannot cross, by definition!

Dr McGilchrist calls AI Artificial Information Processing.

Active passivity is simply being receptive. (women understand this)

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

He made the sand a boundary for the sea. Not matter how the waves may crash and roll… Jeremiah 5:22

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

He made the sand a boundary for the sea. Not matter how the waves may crash and roll… Jeremiah 5:22

I was stunned by the gentleman's assertion that psychopaths/sociopaths are so rare, their presence in the population is negligible. The numbers vary, but it's thought that approximately 3% of the American population is sociopathic, 1% psychopathic. A recent British study concluded that 4.5% of their population is psychopathic. Those numbers don't suggest negligibility. I'm 71, and my life was profoundly affected by a psychopath when I was 7 ( mass murder survivor, permanently disabled ). In the last twenty years, two sociopaths, each unaware of the other's existence, have cost me approximately $300,000.00. Jordan Peterson says flatly that everyone will be assaulted in some way by a psychopath. Not may be. Will be.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

I’m so sorry to hear about the trauma that you have faced. Do you have a timestamp for that comment? I don’t recall any of them saying that.

@bobtaylor170

Жыл бұрын

@@TheMeaningCode Thank you for such a kind comment. I don't have a timestamp, but I'm sure it was in the first 20 minutes. It's possible I misheard, but I doubt I did.

@bobtaylor170

Жыл бұрын

It's at 34:46. I wish I had looked at the transcript first.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

@@bobtaylor170Wow. I even responded to him and didn’t pick up on it. So sorry about that! But thanks for pointing it out to me.

@bobtaylor170

Жыл бұрын

@@TheMeaningCode you're welcome! But after what I've been through, I have been studying Cluster B personality disorder intently for years. There are several doctors and counselors on KZread who have educated me well, and pointed me to books which have taken me deeper. In the comments sections of these channels, it's frequent that a victim declares that this needs to be taught in school, because of its prevalence. When the guest said what he said, I was incredulous ( something nobody really ever is, it's just an expression ) that he could believe such a thing. Because of my injuries, I gave up my driver's license willingly when I was 25. I live in a Northern state. Blizzards don't shock us. Often, I've had to make my way through one to get groceries. I started a little experiment. While I'd be waiting for a bus, I'd look at drivers and passengers in passing cars. Most of them looked bewildered, and sympathetic. Three or four times, people offered me a ride. ( One woman said to me before I got in the car, "You're not a serial killer, are you?!" ) But frequently, I'd catch a smirk. I'd spot contempt on people's faces. Some people laughed. My instincts have always been that every one of those people was at least sociopathic: no capacity to feel for a fellow human being. So, you can imagine why my hair caught on fire when I heard your guest's appraisal of the frequency of sociopathy and psychopathy in the population. I wish him one of two things: a lot of wising up on the topic, or the kind of protection which, so goes the secular proverb, God gives to fools and drunks.

Good question Nate about Dr. Peterson. ( I believe he will finally come to accept Christ and His resurrection) .....So AI is the sum total of humanness,(not only intelligence) yet without a Spirit. (One may venture to call it soulishness. )This is carnal earthy wisdom at its highest, and it is demonic according to James 3:15. "This wisdom is not that which comes down from above but is earthly, natural, demonic. Ai cannot become conscious because Spirit/Consciousness "comes from above". The Macrobes, however, are capable of penetrating the head of Alcasan and ruling through him.Thus modern principalities( who are persons as Nate points out ) are also capable of ruling through Ai. A possible " image of the beast"? Are we seeing the entrance of some form of Antichrist as Lewis described? By the way, Dr Peterson in his interview with Brian Roemmele discusses the production through AI of an entire collection of Biblical wisdom devotionals, plus psychology, plus every theological treatise ever written. This can be, according to Peterson, a guide for life for each individual when combined with his own personalized psychological profile and personal AI designed by Brian Roemmele. . heres the link : kzread.info/dash/bejne/hZN5ltZwpLquhbw.html sorry..also, Kate ...The large language models are capable of reproducing poetry and "spirit" in the same degree as a highly advanced robot can pick up homeless people off a street in Calcutta and feed them and clothe them and give them a "dignified" death. NO! A machine can never love as Nate said. It is a delusion, an illusion, a falsity. It is a false sign and wonder.

@TheMeaningCode

Жыл бұрын

Yes, of course. I didn’t say they were capable of poetry and spirit, but was trying to articulate the way in which it is capturing all human “words” and is now a kind of principality or egregore able to mouth back at us both some of the best but also the worst of what we have ever said. But our written and spoken output are only a vague shadow of what it means to be human.

@kylemcnease1170

Жыл бұрын

I think what I would caution is that we’re very early in the developmental process of AI. I think we should be watching this development very closely & pray that we avoid many of the existential risks associated with cybernetic systems that are left open to automated self-improvement. I also think I’d be cautious about defining away the possibility of consciousness emerging in a substrate not like ourselves. I do think this is one of the mistaken assumptions of Devine & Weston. They go strictly by the appearances of things & don’t discern the Imago Dei present in these other entities (like the Green Lady) . We need to be careful in what we’re doing & deeply consider whether or not we should continue down this path. I’m not sure we have the wisdom & prudence it takes to wield systems that are both ubiquitous & vastly more intelligent than us. And as you say, we mustn’t forget that there will be those who will attempt to utilize such systems out of malign intent. Let’s continue to keep the dialogue going!