The day when FSD drives flawlessly in Manhattan in all possible conditions is the day we can officially declare FSD solved

@timepstein274

3 ай бұрын

Not quite. Europe is a lot more challenging (I've driven in NYC as well) I live in Italy and expect my FSD to finally be activated by the end of this year, but with interventions required every minute. The roads here are so narrow that you must fold the mirrors to pass other cars or even drive on local roads, and motorcycles regularly lane split at "chicken" level where moving over is the only way to avoid a collision. The nearest major road that carries semi trailer traffic is so narrow in parts that there is no center lane marked in these sections as you must drive over the center section unless you are passing

@macdds

3 ай бұрын

Don't miss those big cities in India. Cars, bicycles, motorcycles, kids, adults, man powered carriages, even cows, dogs, monkeys.. they all go together on the roads in those cities.

@FlyingMonet

3 ай бұрын

@@timepstein274 Has there been any info when FSD will be available in Europe? Sorry I’m not up to date on this at all.

@NassimSYD

3 ай бұрын

@@macdds That would require solving the technological singularity

@ken-mb5cp

3 ай бұрын

2 weeks

NYC traffic is a freaking melpot of non-sense. Very bold of you to test FSD in Manhattan and I'm here for it. I would never lol

10/10 video. Keep finding those very difficult cases that must be solved.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

This is crazy, it did better than most humans I know. Even keeping speed when crazy NYC shit goes down around it. The team obviously hasn't been focusing extreme driving conditions like this, but the path looks promising.

3:05 WOW, I would have expected the car to stop for that pedestrian. Overall incredible performance for NYC. Love your content, you're critical and not too hyped, thanks for contributing 🦾

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

@CharlieLiuPhotography

3 ай бұрын

For reals. Even as a human driver, I'm kinda like -- is he gonna run into my car? What's he doing crossing a red?

@logitech4873

3 ай бұрын

Oh damn yeah that's a really bad screwup on the car's side.

@-zelda-

3 ай бұрын

At first glance seems to behave like a human driver would but looking closely at the dashboard it looks like FSD didn't even see the pedestrian until it was too late??

@catbert7

3 ай бұрын

IKR? That was completely uncharacteristic of FSD, based on all the other vids I've seen.

Great narrative as you drive. Very interesting. Thanks

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

This makes downtown Toronto look like it's Sunday 7 AM. I WISH the GTA area was as sparse as in this video during daylight hours!

Thank you for bring it on the most challenging stage !

Thanks for the video. Always appreciate your testing and analysis. It looks promising. I like how it wasn’t fazed by the pedestrians.

Thanks for doing these tests!

FSD v12.3 is working beautifully in LA. I used to limit my time on FSD because it was more stressful than driving myself. Now, I have to worry about not falling asleep at the wheel because it is so relaxing. I can live with the possibility that it will never be fully suitable for Manhattan, Paris or India. It works very well where I use it.

@DerekDavis213

3 ай бұрын

LA might be fine, but FSD clearly has problems in San Francisco, New York City, and Chicago. Just to name a few big cities.

I've seen a lot of no intervention videos in San Fran, but this NYC is on a different level. Glad your posting these cuz I'm definitely thinking twice about getting a tesla.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

Don't think twice get one...the only car that gers better over time instead of new cars every 1-2 years

@mrj774

2 ай бұрын

Get it for the car, just don't buy the FSD?

imagine 3 months from now what fsd will do

Thank you for your video. 😊 I'm looking forward to the 12.3.3 version

Love the work you’re doing in a complicated scenario. Great analysis of the city driving capabilities. I agree with setting up a testing center in a dense metropolitan area like NYC, or San Francisco. I’m still thinking the predictive capability needs an upgrade.

@DerekDavis213

3 ай бұрын

Or you might say, LACK of predictive capability at all in the current beta FSD software.

Thanks for the video. Please keep publish more videos in Manhattan. It's cool for the Tesla fsd community. Is Fsd will succeed in this though environment ???

Very nice. Put it through the grinder and exposed strengths and weaknesses very nicely. Saw a run through SF with almost no interventions but kept thinking that NYC might have been more challenging... so I didn't really accept the result (having spent years in NYC traffic with people opening doors 12" away and all the other WTF things NYC inhabitants do as a matter of course. (Like waves of pedestrians Not giving right of way... regularly.) Would love to see this same drive a year from now with the rate V12 is improving, but it very clear here that as good as it has become, it can't be let loose in NYC for some time now.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

💯

Love watching your videos. Thank you

Wow good test for fsd! Thx for sharing.

The most impressive video. Thanks for your contribution. ❤❤

10:05 Wife complained about this in ours...the lane indecision and drift. Tesla will need to fix this if they expect this tech to be accepted by the general public.

@moseschung3220

3 ай бұрын

13:10 Agree with you fully on this point. Software is already impressive...just needs to get better.

The variability of road "lines" (and associated rules), construction, cones/pylons, outdoor dining, and pedestrians and other vehicles not following the rules is crazy in NYC. It's the edge case of FSD.

@DerekDavis213

3 ай бұрын

Not just NYC. The latest FSD has problems in San Francisco too. To name just one city.

Nice video! Please more NYC if you have the time. It’s the final frontier!!

Gosh I am sweating here in New Zealand watching how close buses and cars get to your T.

I agree I think Tesla ought to put about 50 drivers working for Tesla in trying out all those edge cases like they did with Chuck Cooks unprotected left hand turns. I think that would go a long ways to those edge cases for sure. TY for your videos.

thinking about going all in now, this is getting crazy good.

circa 9:00 ... No, that data is NOT available to the car. It coud be argued that it _should be_ ... maybe ... but it's not. All the car knows is what it sees with its 8 eyes. Put it this way: If the car would know what lanes are left turn only, etc, it would amount to a "detailed map", which Elon does not like. And I don't either, in the sense that a detailed map is only as good as it is current. If your navigation relies on detailed maps and things change, but the map has not changed yet, bad things can happen. Great testing! Good point about optimizing FSD for NYNY. They don't need to move there, but they definitely need your videos in DOJO.

@harishyala

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, tough stuff. FSD tries to emulate humans through and through. So no map data as input for training, only photons and vehicle kinematics.

Love the videos, keep it up! FYI, the visualizations are currently not representative of what FSD NNs are reacting too. This has been demonstrated in many 12.x videos.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

Correct

@catbert7

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, that's what he said in the vid ;p

even with the few mistakes it did amazing. agree they need to stage out of NYC and probably Chicago for some heavy development testing.

Great job. Going to need a much more robust 'mind' to conquer city life!

Great video ❤ As far I know, FSD, can't remember. So it drives, like I would coming from Sweden. How would you guys drive in my town? When FSD is allowed to remember your certain drive will be better.

Good vid. Hope the T AI boys and girls are following your work closely.

Just one word: impressive

Thanks!

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the support

I’d bet that the car didn’t turn on the turn signal when changing lanes because it’s been trained in that same environment with NYC drivers - that don’t use turn signals - which is interesting in and of itself

Better than anyone who has never driven there like myself.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

Yes much better than most people but still a ways to go

With the new promised faster learning capabilities, these issues during real city driving should be fixed in 2, 3 minor releases. Nice test scenario, I like it. 🙏

Nice.

I’d have it 7/10 over all , mostly cuz it’s only 3months since it rolls out . Let’s wait for the v13 .

You're the best. Seriously :)

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

noticed it slows down when there's nothing in front of it in certain situations so i try to use the accelerator to let it know it can go

i found it no problem with traffic, buy problems when in rainy night, highway exit, and sometimes wrong lane for turnning left. so FSD will be a along wait again. wait for it for 4 yrs now? every yr they say it will be done at the end of the yr. I guess this yr will be the same.

The fact that it's kinda driveable and not disengaging all the time is already very cool.

What kinda camera mount and camera are you using?

It would be helpful if (for the benefit of those of us who do not drive in the US) if you could say, for example, whether or not FSDb hesitating or even stopping for pedestrians are in the right or in the wrong. Obvs the car should stop if there is any danger of a collision but 'jay-walkers' (eg at 10:29?) clearly need to share the blame for any near-misses and it would help assess the capability of FSDb is this sort of thing was made clear.

You brought up a big point in your video. The big problem with FSD to me, after many years of use, is that it still is trying to make the “god algorithm” that can work in all situations as if the car had never driven itself before. Yet, here we have all these FSD drivers like us collecting road data. When you pointed out that “the car has the data,” it should, because zillions of Teslas have driven that very road and I bet most have opted in to share data with Tesla. There should be an SSD drive for FSD owners that is used to store hi-res map data that the system can use. The car should download the data for the locality that it is garaged in, and dynamically update from both the driving patterns of the owner and for trips that the owner puts in. Thus, it would know all of NYC for you all the time, and if you decided to drive to Baltimore, it would download the data it needs while you are en route. If they could do that, a lot of the issues you show would disappear. (Now the Lincoln Tunnel…)

@kafiluz4317

3 ай бұрын

It doesn't matter if FSD has only first drives. Hardware 3 runs at 2000 processes per second with multitasking, 8 cameras (360 degrees). For FSD every drive is in slow motion with much more brain power for this particular job than human.

@harishyala

3 ай бұрын

Or mini models for that particular area , especially something challenging like NY, Chicago

Seems like they could re-train the model for NYC specifically instead of using the generalized v12 approach? Plenty of Teslas there so the data should be available, no? Sort of like how they're doing a separate model for highway driving/parking, maybe target some particularly complicated cities and train a special model for those scenarios.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

Good idea

So I know chuck cook speaks on this and was wondering what your opinion is on current camera config locations. I have a couple places where I’m unable to see far enough left or right where the pillar cameras are even further back than our head. Do you believe FSD will actually be reached with the current limitations of current hardware. Also not to mention heavy rain and snow being that these cameras do not have any self cleaning I just don’t see how it’s possible. Can be used in limited scenarios?

@ThompYT

3 ай бұрын

Snow is fine since the cameras are heated, heavy rain mostly affects the rear backup camera, as all the other camars don't really "pool" the water on them, and the front cameraas have the wiper. The real problem is mud or other viscous debris, those need an actual cleaning mechanism (which apparently the front bumper cam of the CT could have?). As for the visibility, afaik some version of HW3 and HW4 repeater cameras actually see a bit "in front" of the car, I think chuck talked about it once and how that would eliminate most of his concerns.

Thanks for clip. why Tesla is less seen in NY than LA ?

So i follow your channel and figured you would know, my dad is trying the full self driving for free, do you know how to adjust the speed after the light goes green? because the tesla went like a rocket once it went green lol thanks. does he just need to put it in chill mode? lol

To your point about data and turns, I don’t think the end to end neural net is accessing satellite data but even if it could maybe it’s better if it doesn’t since satellite data can be very outdated.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

I get it, what I'm saying is to replicate how humans use navigation and satellites to navigate. Even if the data is outdated it can always use vision as the decider, so nav + sat + vision, and vision is weighted to be the final decider, you have a car that navigates like a human with a navigator in the passenger seat and can avoid many of the issues the car gets itself into now.

@FriedChairs

3 ай бұрын

@@BlackTesla I know what you mean. Appreciate your videos and hope they help push Tesla to improve FSD in NY.

Nice - is autopark working with 12.3.1?

@dekepgreen

3 ай бұрын

It is working on mine. 2023 Model S hw4.

😍😍

Mr terrific your fearless 😀 😎 ✨️ real beta testing.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

About over cautiousness, have you tried using assertive mode for fsd?

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

I have, it's not assertive in the manner you would think

As Darth Vader would say "...impressive,...most impressive". Today, I drove with FSD active on an interior city expressway and it drove with great confidence. The imperfections of FSD are infinitely small (infinitesimal),..."NO SOFTWARE IS WITHOUT FLAWS". As much as I am impressed and/or mystified, this is not AI nor is this AGI.

I think now that they have opened up FSD free trial for a month they should get plenty of new York traffic conditions to model on. The team ain't moving from sunny California imo

Do you know anyone with Legacy s on V12?

우와... 정말 잘한다....!!!

Tesla should bring in the more popular FSD KZreadrs to talk to engineers so they can accurately describe what is going on. For example I believe there’s a disconnect between the visualization and the perception, but I don’t know for sure. It would be nice for KZreadrs to know exactly what they can tell from the visualization and what they cannot.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

There is a disconnect between the visualization and the cars perception. Also the visualization is an extreme simplification of what the car actually sees. At the end of the day the visualization needs to better represent what the car sees when the car sees it.

@phxees

3 ай бұрын

@@BlackTesla based on the little I know about it, Tesla might have to run more NNs which would need more compute for that task. Probably possible on HW4 and beyond, but not likely on HW3. That said, great work. I just wish you had access to better in-car data.

lets see how autopilot navigates through these environments of particular challenge!!!

I believe lidars & radar are still useful for crowded & tight conditios like NYC, not only for measuring precise distances that even humans cannot determine reliably, but also detecting objects that the cameras could miss, like transparent stuff, objects that neither human or camera could sense in time during very dark condition. Another thing is redundancy, should cameras be severely obstucted or fail, there are other active merasures to maneuver the vehicle, and that's what Robotaxi needs the most.

3:05: WTF? FSD not stopping for a pedestrian in a crosswalk walking directly across the road, at close range?? Never seen anything like that. 5:10: Very smooth! 6:22: Surprised it got so close to that guy before he fully exited the lane. 9:40: It's disappointing that after years of Beta it's never made any real progress on recognizing blocked roads. 13:00: Perfect does not exist. There will be accidents. It needs to be better than the average human; probably many times better. 14:50: Never seen it get that close to a bike either. This is so different than how I've seen it drive other places, enough for me to wonder if it's maybe splintering into regional models. Very interesting.

Wow…u should be the regulator on these cars! Amazing work testing AI. V12 is several orders of magnitude improvement over v11.

There should be a way to communicate with the AI to tell it what to do and especially what not to do.

@BlackTesla

2 ай бұрын

💯

they really gotta just set up base in Toronto and Manhattan, get FSD to absolutely master those cities and it'll be ready

It's seems a shame that Tesla can't program FSDb to listen to the driver. If you are driving in unfamiliar territory with someone who knows the area, they would be constantly giving you bits of local knowledge which would be helpful. Likewise, I imagine a driving instructor advising a pupil; praise when the pupil odes something well; criticism when it messes up. Why not tap into that knowledge/experience? I guess the 'puter is pretty maxed out as it is tho...

This does not look like normal daytime traffic in Manhattan. Sunday morning, maybe? Try 5 pm weekday.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

That's the point I want a 20-30minute video not 1-2hr video in standstill traffic lol. It would be the same result though just taking much much longer as you know.

You have to get used to not calling it Beta anymore 😅

@davidkaplan5517

3 ай бұрын

It’s called beta everywhere else in the car…… open the menu to turn it on it’s labeled beta

@Supreme_Lobster

3 ай бұрын

@@davidkaplan5517 no, beginning in 12.3.3 they removed all "beta" labelling from everywhere. Now they call it "FSD (Supervised)"

@davidkaplan5517

3 ай бұрын

@@Supreme_Lobsterno… they very much do not. Open your car and check. It says beta in places within menus.

@jep0rox

3 ай бұрын

@@davidkaplan5517 no they're right, 12.3.3 is now FSD (Supervised)

@davidkaplan5517

3 ай бұрын

@@jep0roxdo you have the car running the update? If so, go check. If not, trust me.

Well you’re driving in one of the most aggressive conditions in the US but have told FSD to be fairly cautious, and then complain that it isn’t assertive enough. We know FSD wasn’t trained primarily for NYC yet. You should try all the three different settings for assertive driving, and then give your verdict on that aspect. It doesn’t make sense that you expect FSD beta to have dialed in settings for the aggressive conditions in NYC out of the box currently. I think and hope it will always be more cautious towards both pedestrians and other drivers than any NYC bus or taxi regardless of the drive settings; those drivers are crazy 😅

Oh it's not in Beta anymore?

@davidkaplan5517

3 ай бұрын

It is. Semantics. It’s called beta in car menus regardless of the oxymoronic titles it gives you.

I think this is representative for many European cities

I wonder how the new AutoPark works in Manhattan.

I could watch your NYC FSD videos all day. Be sure to send any "Bus Only" lane tickets to Elon. 🙂 In NYC, as you showed and as a lifelong NYer, pedestrians/cyclists are more fearless about walking in traffic. They assume they have the right of way. As you say, the Tesla team / Elon needs to watch your NYC videos and then get a special team in place to get FSD working better in NYC. They need a team in NYC and then do the same in Hyderabad, India. NYC traffic is crazy but I found Hyderabad, India to be 10X more intense.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

💯

Like I said before IF you can get this thing to work in Manhattan NY then it’s a done deal. Until then I’m good.

Not bad, the real test will be Tokyo!

Robotaxi 2020 reality check

9:46 - This is why yoke steering wheels are a bad idea.

Your car picking people up in the middle of the night in NYC 😶

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

They say that city never sleeps 😉

I want to see it navigate a major European city like Barcelona.

the turn into closed street was not good. i don’t believe you flagged it on the system.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

I did

I have absolutely no desire to ever use self driving cars …

3:06 WTF? Is the pedestrian going on red?

@moseschung3220

3 ай бұрын

I guess you've never been to NY? 😄People know you're a tourist because you obey the traffic lights.

Humans don’t do that know.

No one else can do this great job of testing FSB In Manhattan and then give a most intelligent assessment. Bravo BT.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

TY

should be a bus and EV only lane 😇

Love to see the aggressive mode to see if it has impulse behavior similar to humans

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

It's not it just keeps a closer follow distance and makes more frequent speed based lane changes

@an-opinion

3 ай бұрын

@@BlackTesla I see. I guess it need more of your training data to build those connections. I think it will take a while as they prioritize non-NYC driving first.

At 9:35 orange cones, workmen, and detour, clear as day to any human driver. FSD tries to turn left anyway. Totally not aware of its environment! Human must intervene.

BAD DRIVING at 03:05. The car should have stopped for a pedestrian walking over a marked cross-walk [even though the car has a green light and the pedestrian should NOT have been crossing]. That is the law. Granted, maybe this is typical for New York City traffic, but it's dangerous to just zoom past a pedestrian in a cross-walk like that. Even if Tesla's computer calculated that the car would not hit the pedestrian, the car should still have stopped, just as a matter of policy. The pedestrian had right-of-way. Unless the laws in NYCity allow cars to zoom past pedestrians in cross-walks as long as the light is green, which I doubt.

@zachb1706

3 ай бұрын

If autonomous cars are forced to be overly cautious no one will use them.

@samyang1684

3 ай бұрын

really? The car doesn't need to stop. Keep full speed to pass through intersection when green light. flawless over here.

My scores: forget it, forget it, forget it, forget it.

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

🤣

It won't get to robotaxi level until there's an LLM involved that will let the passenger talk to it and get it out of trouble. for example if it's stuck the passenger can tell it how to get unstuck. if it's too close to the biker, the passenger can tell it to back off.

@TheSpartan3669

3 ай бұрын

What if the passenger is a child? If it can't figure it out itself it won't be a Robotaxi.

« NY is challenging » you didn’t travel in Europe especially in France 😂

@FlyingMonet

3 ай бұрын

I’m so curious how FSD would handle driving in Paris, Frankfurt, London, Barcelona, etc. roads in Europe are SO much tighter than North America. Or even Asia cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc. It will be interesting.

@robertcameron1738

3 ай бұрын

what about Mumbai or Lagos?@@FlyingMonet

@Player2blood

3 ай бұрын

There is enough potholes in Lagos 😂 😂 😂 ​@@robertcameron1738

@gilbertpoizat8199

3 ай бұрын

😂 I am waiting real FSD from 2019 on my M3 in France

@commandersprocket

3 ай бұрын

New York City is challenging because of the aggressiveness of the drivers, the double parking and the number of pedestrians. I think the European cities listed are equivalent only they have narrow streets. I don’t think that’s going to change the AI dramatically. There will be a little bit of additional learning, but probably in well under a year any AI that can handle New York City will be able to handle any European city. Mumbai and Lagos are different matter. In European cities and New York City, there is at least a concept of road rules, when you venture into cities like Lagos or Mumbai, those rules of the road no longer exist… it’s just pure chaos sometimes, that could take another 5 to 10 (a huge effort) years for AI to address.

regarding your comments at 9:00, when I compare and contrast FSD with human drivers, FSD (I think) does not have the ability to learn the "tricks" of driving in certain locations that local drivers know about, unless they are somehow captured on the map data. FSD is an expert driver that knows the rules of the road very well, but has no location-specific previous knowledge to call upon for some locations. And while I am talking to FSD shortcomings: FSD also lacks another capability that human drivers have: the ability to negotiate in real time with other road users, by either signaling or seeing others' signals. V2V (vehicle to vehicle) comm systems are being developed of course. But I admit FSD is doing a great job without these. In the "march of 9's" reliability progress, I would say that FSDS (FSD Supervised) is now at two 9's: 99%. But needs to get to 99.999 of course - which will be an extreme case of the Pareto principle.

V 12.1 was better than 12.3

Give it five to ten years and _every_ vehicle will be fsd, and the issue of human drivers will be nothing more than an unpleasant memory.

@donwald3436

2 ай бұрын

Five years ago FElon said FSD was ready now lol.

what is FDS for if you have to babysit the car all the time? you have the stress to keep up with traffic and road hazards PLUS the stress of keeping an eye on the car to anticipate what stupid thing it will do.

video is too long without timestamps. 90% of the video is straight roads, there's no way i have time to sit thru the entire videos. Skipping thru parts of it will always land me on straight roads again.

india and china traffic are more challenging 😂

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

💯

@Gongolongo

3 ай бұрын

China is very easy. I've sat in some self driving car prototypes there. The roads are very well made and don't vary in terms of signs and road info. Traffic does not vary like NY and there's definitely no jail walkers. I would confidently say that Chinese cities are much easier than American cities.

Not sure FSD will be ready for roads around the world… I mean this ride was 95% straight lines, easy no challenging at all… driving in old European cities will be the real testing.

@credlyst

3 ай бұрын

European cities? Try indian 😂

@notalkguitarampplug-insrev784

3 ай бұрын

@@credlyst haha you’re right! That’s why I think Tesla should strat to train on those countries

@credlyst

3 ай бұрын

@@notalkguitarampplug-insrev784 yeah I totally agree, but they know of this obviously. Only a matter of time until we get an announcement about it

@ryansmithc

3 ай бұрын

The driving mimics a real driver. So all it needs is enough video of people driving to complete it. Why wouldn't it happen?

@TheSpartan3669

3 ай бұрын

​@@ryansmithcThere will always be situations it doesn’t have video for.

About 10 Traffics violations in 15 minutes. 😂

@BlackTesla

3 ай бұрын

🤣