Better than anything on primetime television.

@jupitereye4322

Ай бұрын

Primetime is utter garbage. This is, in my opinion, the purpose of the internet.

@zvorenergy

Ай бұрын

I gave up all TV in 2015.

I dont understand 75% of this theory of hard problem of consciousness but its the most fascinating subject matter i discovered for myself. I have a feeling the OR theory will be validated to be 100% correct.

@skyotter3317

Жыл бұрын

me too... and Penrose is so humble about it and will be vindicated sometime in the 23rd century

Love to see Hameroff is back in action. In his absence I've been persuaded that free will is an illusion. However I'll always listen closely to what Stuart has to say, Orch-OR is the most compelling scientific argument to the contrary.

@starxcrossed

2 жыл бұрын

The free will argument is a red herring. It makes no sense and can be interpreted in too many ways to make an argument out of it. If you have true “freedom” you would not be an embodied system. However an extremely complex system has Will and more freedom than anything that could exist. It’s a strange thing to argue about

@PetraKann

Жыл бұрын

We have no choice but to accept the existence of free will. (Who said that?)

@GnosticJ

Жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/rKSJwcdsmsvFdrw.html

@squamish4244

5 ай бұрын

I applaud your open-mindedness. A lot of people get really angry at this theory and refuse to believe the evidence for it, for a number of reasons. Even though none of the other theories actually have any evidence for them! Free will isn't even the primary reason it pisses so many people off - the biggest is that Penrose is saying that we will never form a unified theory of consciousness without understanding consciousness. Another is that it has huge potential implications for the dominant materialist paradigm of physics. I don't know if this theory will keep holding up, but Penrose and Hameroff are definitely onto something, and dismissing the theory because 'warm and wet environments do not support quantum coherence, the end'. Even though we _know_ they do now, they just won't accept it. I also think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to not believing in free will just as much as they accuse people who do believe in free will. It's comforting to a lot of people to think we are not in control and don't have a choice in our fates. Even though it changes nothing about their behaviour in practice lol

@dougmarkham

4 ай бұрын

​@@PetraKann That's on the same level as the following: "Only Sith deal in absolutes"

Every time you hear him talk about "bing" remember that he is referring to "being"

The Dynamic duo! Such a great discussion!

This is such a fascinating lecture . Thank you

An extension of your music metaphor: in Jazz there exists "Call and response" which might aptly fit in further explaining your conductor(less) music analogy. Consciousness may stimulate patterns in a 'call' and be followed by memory functions responding by recalling previous stored models based on similarity to the current model. Consciousness could then 'call' for more similar events until it reaches a choice. In music, each call and response is moderated by a number of bars or measures. This part of the analogy would explain sub frequency and super frequency effects. Further analogies follow by adding in key changes, major and minor and chord progressions that would allow for anticipatory explanations why we can hit a ball in 100ms with a system that takes 500ms to respond. The system has matched the current model to a previous model and it plays without any conscious interaction. This is generally true in music, consciousness merely directs the unconscious to play sequences of actions based on the best fit of the current model.

@djtall3090

9 ай бұрын

very interesting, I'm familiar with "call and response" in music but nevrr thought of applying it to consciousness. Thanks, this will give me something to think about

Hameroff always says that AI scientists assume that "consciousness arrives at a certain amount of complexity" but I have never heard any serious AI scientist actually say that. I've heard some hard materialists make light of consciousness but as deep learning language models continue to grow, I think we might actually have a bad definition of consciousness or conscious experience to begin with and might be missing the point. I tend to have the feeling that the Eastern religions are closer to the truth. If consciousness is a quantum effect that likely means that it permeates throughout all matter. Point being, if that's the case, then why can't Artificial Intelligence be conscious if the basis of all reality is consciousness itself? Bing

@phoboskittym8500

5 ай бұрын

True artificial intelligence isn't possible in a computer, not a computer made with the current generation of micro processors. The "computer" would have to mimic something like a natural brain. Computers are not capable of understanding, Consciousness isn't a "computation" it's not a mathematical algorithm It requires a system to be "self conscious" to have an Orchistrated consciousness entangling the electrons floating between tubulin in the microtubules So computer systems in the future ,that mimic this ability to "Orch" should have some kind of consciousness

@squamish4244

5 ай бұрын

Panpsychists like Ben Goertzel have said that. Goertzel is a hard materialist though, or at least, he doesn't believe in a nonlocal consciousness. He refers to his body as a "meat sack". The Eastern religions do indeed hold the position that consciousness is fundamental to the universe, but are not panpsychic. They hold the position that living organisms express consciousness, but not rocks, for instance. Consciousness can permeate all matter but not be expressed through all matter. Yet there is considerable debate in the Eastern traditions as well. The Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh (a great Vietnamese Zen master who recently passed away) have expressed support at one point or another for the idea that a machine could support a stream of consciousness, as Buddhism holds the position that 'mindstreams' express themselves in new beings i.e. reincarnation. And yet very advanced beings can manifest everywhere when they leave their bodies, the problem is we usually can't see them due to our mental obscurations (karma). I'm not clear on the philosophy, it gets very complex, just like the practices. I have an energy healer who helps me a lot with my mental health and energetic problems that Western medicine says are not possible from 400 miles away and I have heard a lot of really wacky and 'impossible' stories, so I'm wide open to this stuff. A complicating factor with the Eastern traditions is that there is a lot of resistance in them to artificial intelligence, both for its philosophical and practical implications. They don't want to deal with the prospect of machine intelligence becoming smarter than humans at least in the sense of raw intelligence, and they don't want to deal with how that will transform the spiritual path and is already transforming it. For instance, you can now zap a person in precisely the right location in the brain and they can have a mystical experience that can take decades to achieve, if ever, through meditation. To be fair, though, some teachers are very open to this reality and want to use technology to vastly accelerate the spiritual path. Again, the Dalai Lama has told neuroscientists they have to figure this out, because otherwise so-called enlightenment will remain the preserve of an elite and never spread to actually change the world. He also says he would be the first patient when they do figure this out reliably and safely. So yeah, there's a lot going on right now. It's a crazy time to be involved in this stuff, and I started when I was 25, 20 years ago. So much is changing so fast.

@zvorenergy

Ай бұрын

​@@squamish4244I don't think a silicon machine can be conscious because it has no physical, direct connection to the Universe as we do. Remember, we are created by the Universe to perceive itself. There is a video on Microtubules and Black Holes by Keith Johnson that will clarify.

Comprehensive. Love it

Thanks for this exciting presentation. I would like to ask about "Quantum Logic" as a step that I am missing between the physics of the Tubulins and the philosophy of Penrose OR?

Where can I get the other 300 slides? :)

Please can we have a link to the slides? (Or the slides as you have updated them in the last year)?

Could the faster than 3rd wave response have something to do with the subconscious? What if the subconscious is the primary operating layer, and conscious processing is the primary experience/perceiving, even directing layer. Say an autonomous vehicle, the car will make decisions before the driver is even aware, because the car is programmed to operate with an objective and sensing things the driver isn't, or sensing things faster. But ultimately the conscious driver is in control. I think the conscious mind instructs/can instruct the subconscious to fulfill an objective, and the subconscious operates in ways that the conscious mind cannot, sensing, understanding, calculating, reacting. Imagine if we had to consciously process everything we were exposed to or everything we did. Impossible. When you set an outcome it instructs the subconscious to fulfill it, to realize it. It makes the background but vitally important decisions that you are not aware of. I'm sure that looking at this from an outside perspective it would appear as the brain operating outside of free will, but it's free will that has instructed this process.

@EllyTaliesinBingle

4 ай бұрын

Ive actually had something that felt like consciously processing everything I was exposed to for a few moments in meditation. Basically meditating in a particular way a couple times in which I directed my consciousness to go to a place in headspace that was both tuning out the outside world while also just barely going. Almost a sleeplike state but with direction. I finished with a moment of "snapping back to reality" in which I experienced time dilation and 3 seconds felt like 7 minutes, a journey in which my consciousness traveled around and and through my body, and I felt every little thing inside vibrating, aching, beating inside. I heard the outside world and... Oh my I'm having a flashback forgive me I must go haha. 😅

The thalamic inputs on the layer 5 pyramital cells could be controlled by the retro encabulator. 😆

the mind-brain gap, and conscious-unconscious relationships, what does a holistic model offer. ie Glial cells

@zvorenergy

Ай бұрын

Right, the neural net is embedded in and modulated by the larger glial net which also responds electromagnetically. Watch the video by Keith Johnson microtubules and black holes.

Psa 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. It's interesting that we cannot build a machine like this, and yet people want to believe that this sprang from, evolved from nothing.

@sgramstrup

6 ай бұрын

Ah. All religions (including theist Capitalism) are vetted on the idea that we have agency. As it looks now, we don't have agency, and nothing seriously in science give rise to anything like Hameroff wu suggests' So it turns out that it is the persons prior belief that dictates if the person reaches out after anything that postulates that we have 'free will'/consciousness. Theistic religions demand that we have agency, and so does Capitalism - otherwise they can't hit people in the head with morality and so on. I wonder where Hameroff's fanatism comes from. He doesn't seem religious, so I suspect he's a Capitalist fanatic..

NTS 100/u

If the same particle is 2 places at he same time because of curvature, how do we account for the observed particle location vs the real particle location as shown by Eddington's experiment and the observed vs real location of the stars behind the sun?

@dougmarkham

4 ай бұрын

There is a difference between 'light from stars being bent around our sun due to space-time being deformed by the sun's mass' and 'the solutions to the schrodinger equation which do not tell you where something is; rather, the calculations give you the probability that a sub-atomic particle--- eg an electron--- is in one place or another. There is a view amongst physicists that the probabilities aren't theoretical but that the sub-atomic partical is in all locations but that it is only ever measured to be in one place because it's in other places in other orthogonal universes. This is the 'many worlds interpretation of QM' mentioned by Stuart. It's important to note however that the schrodinger equation is deterministic in terms of the variables that are plugged into the equation directly affect the probabilities calculated. The Schrodinger equation is a linear differential equation in that the system is assumed to lack feedback. However, the real world ---especially the biological world---is non-linear. When biologists talk about chaos theory, emergence and self-organisation with respect to neurons, this indicates the system has feedback mechanisms ensuring that the outputs don't necessarily relate directly to the inputs of the system. Non-linear systems occur in classical mechanics where the objects in the system are heterogeneous (different objects of the same class can have slightly different properties); whereas, in quantum mechanics, the subatomic particles are homogenous eg an electron is exactly the same as another electron. The physicist 'John Wheeler' conjectured that the electrons are so alike because it is one single electron travelling forwards and backwards in time ie, it's a single electron being everywhere at once. What this Orch OR suggests is that the Schrodinger equation which generates the wave-function is a real thing, not just a calculation of the probability of a subatomic particle being in one place or another. Like many-worlds, it posits that the wavefunction collapse is a real physical process which occurs when the gravitational curvature at small scales entangled with the particle to cause the collapse of its wavefunction. This process would lead to upwards causation where the macro world of classical mechanics results from the events occurring at the subatomic scale. However, non-linear systems lead to downward causation eg where the outcome of a classical system can impact upon sub-systems of lower scale, event acting upon quantum systems potentially. A simple example of downward causation is a car plant machine in which flicking a switch turns on the system which makes the machine do its job but then makes a mechanism switch the machine off ie, the software of the machine feeds back affecting the hardware (turning it off). There is a group of scientists which believe that consciousness arises emergently (and that would include classical systems that operate biologically at the level of neuron communication) ie, such that the interplay of neurons to neuron signalling might impact quantum effects occurring within microtubules including fluctuations in gravitational fields that might impact collapse of the wavefunction. Whilst the experience of consciousness maybe dependent upon QM, I think that thought ---the flow of thought, thinking, analysis etc---is likely to result from non-linear processes, as outlined in the book Mechanisms of the Mind (De Bono). It's quite possible that consciousness may arise from interplay between quantum systems and classical systems---being impacted upon by both local and non-local variables. This would allow the whole system to impact upon parts within the system and parts within the system to alter the local system and any entanglement linking the local system to non-local parts of the system. In otherwords, I suspect that downward and upward causation occur together. It's also possible that the future interactions somehow travel backwards in time to impact the present. I think this idea is beyond current theory in terms of the mechanisms of how this would work.

Hameroff, is there any recent delopments, such as new evidence, for Orchestrated Objective Reduction?

@squamish4244

5 ай бұрын

There have been a bunch of developments in recent years, and most of them have strengthened the theory.

first like

It´s an excelent contribution to scicens and tecnology

@sgramstrup

6 ай бұрын

No, it isn't. It's wu..

Love to see people here allegedly arguing back to Dr. Hammeroff with fancy wording. Great lecture, always keen to know more about this work. Thanks for posting it, I've enjoyed it very much.

what sport egzist that brain is to slow to play it?

Not finished with video yet, maybe he gets to it, most don't, "they" never mention a difference between consciousness and self consciousness. The latter is emergent, the former appears to be inherant in the quantum field. More like a potential consciousness.

Imagine being me and your large intestin explodes " happened when I was 23 and 64" and there was no anesthesia I went through hell as it was. but death would have been to only way out with out anesthesia and pain killer's.

IF consciousness is non-local, then how do we explain anaesthesia? when i have anaesthesia and the liquid enters my vein, the light switch goes off...or does it? is my consciousness suspended? has it vanished? is it lingering in the atmosphere somehow? i am confused by anaesthesia. i personally believe (and hope) consciousness extends beyond the body (which Hammeroff says there is a science to back this theory), BUT then why do I come round from anaesthesia with no awareness of what happened to me?

@sgrimm7346

2 жыл бұрын

Watch the video again....I believe he explains it. He goes pretty quick in this presentation, so' it's easy to miss some things. In my opinion, you're not aware of anything that happened during surgery because, as you said, the 'switch' is turned off, thus preventing any awareness locally, as in 'your body'. The anesthesia is a block or an interruption to the reception of the non-local consciousness field, disabling any mechanism to form memories of it. Now on a higher level, a higher plane, so to speak, it's very possible that there is a record of the surgery....Look up Akashic field. I'm not saying there's any validity to all this, but I've not found any good arguments against any of it and I've been studying this stuff for years. Good luck.

@Hedgewalkers

Жыл бұрын

Remember you are given drugs to make you forget the experience; its a standard component of general anesthesia. That's all physical. so even if you experienced consciousness past your very asleep (if not all but dead) brain, you wouldn't remember it waking up.

@danb.4703

5 ай бұрын

Is it more likely that our consciousness is still there when under anesthesia but unable to expand to cover larger areas of the brain required for awareness. Would this theory if correct make it possible to move or expand consciousness to similar substrates?

@Dion_Mustard

5 ай бұрын

@@danb.4703 by substrates what do you mean? And on your comment, yes I think that is correct however, many people have Out of Body Experiences or lucid awareness during anaesthesia , so this is a bit of a mystery. I would think the vast majority of people under anaesthesia remember nothing but I've heard many accounts of people having Near Death Experiences during anaesthesia whereby they have been put under and then their awareness expands above their body and they witness in vivid detail everything happening to their body....illusion? Doubtful if their brain is under anaesthetic drugs...

Great summary, stay real - waiting for the last conference videos...

@thescienceofconsciousness

2 жыл бұрын

Coming soon!

Is there a link for the actual slideshow itself somewhere?

Where do I go if I want to study this subject deeper?

@sgramstrup

6 ай бұрын

Away from Hameroff..

@mariuszpak1338

6 ай бұрын

@@sgramstrup which is?

Someone had mentioned a response from one or the other of Bernardo Kastrup's idealist view wrt microtubules. I'd be interested if anyone has that information? Thanks.

Loved this amazing information ❤ 👏 👌

Consciousness/mind is the Power of the spirit / soul acting thru the brain. Brain is the radio, Spirit is the signal .. the song playing on the radio is our mind. Or you could think of the brain as a mirror reflecting the powers of the Spirit as well. The Quantum is the world of the Spirit acting on Creation … Our minds and the Quantum is the bridge between the material reality and the reality of the Spirit/Kingdom …. IMHOO ..

@alanmacdonald3763

2 жыл бұрын

Agree Consciousness as prime state, brain as transceiver

@skyotter3317

Жыл бұрын

This realization is happening fast for many people. It's now a no-brainer for me :)

28 00 28 42

15:40 Bingo

It's not just jamming it is a liquid crystal reacting to incoming information through a mechanical matrix that all is working with memory subtracts and adds depending on phase relationships. God would be in the dimension where conscienceness originated.

this + quantum field theory makes up for a good theory of everything...

slide 54 A Cesium atom is not a quantum particle but a classical aggregate of quantum subatomic particles let's get our act together and not use terms as superposition loosely just because they sound good at the time. Like Penrose said consciousness means understanding.

@ezioberolo2936

Жыл бұрын

@Infinite Shoeblack Sorry, not into that.

@Styler177

8 ай бұрын

@@infiniteshoeblack if you care for his point, better get smart over at mfmp

I keep waiting for that lady to move

Oops. Added my two cents before browsing down through more comments, and ended up adding nothing to the discussion other than a lengthy agreement with many of them. But as usual I'll leave it up. I wrote it, I'll stick with it. Someone may find something interesting about it, or at least find out it has some entertainment value... 🙂 Philosophers. What a hoot. Ignoring the evidence of their own senses, and VERY WELL AWARE that they are **consciously** thinking through what they are going to say before they say it, and fully aware of the fact that they are ceaselessly interacting with the world in real time, regardless of FULL consciousness of that world not quite being attained, (because of the scientifically recognized millisecond lag times), they STILL go about saying things like "Consciousness comes too late." So, mister philosopher, if your consciousness came too late to the party, Who the hell am I conversing with??? My personal theory about any effects a multiple millisecond 'lag time' may have, between objective event and complete consciousness OF such an event, is more than compensated for, in the main and in the vast number of occurrences, by the fact that our highest level of conscious awareness has already extrapolated the way in which things will most likely turn out, and so it has put in motion whatever appropriate response is required BEFORE we are fully conscious of the full context an event may occupy, and to what extent such an event will affect us, several milliseconds in the future. In short, we're capable of thinking through many things we will do before the evidence of our senses actually reaches us 'in toto'. We are constantly working through options in advance of events. Consciously, not instinctively or reflexively.

So then I AM the bing

What

Really interesting topic, but the esoteric comments underneath the videos are pure cringe at times.

Wonderful, but you must stop believing in consciousness as vitalistic (gods are all dead now) and think about the obvious consequences of your excellent work upon 'socialised realism' (with realism comprehended a la Adorno's negative dialectic 🥰

Really now,guys speaking about a wave being bifurcated with the potentials being simultaneous with the probability of one being expressed in tangible reality always refer to a cat to illustrate their point. Because one guy used a cat in the metaphor does not mean everyone must use it for eternity. Because this German person didn't see the beauty and ancient evolution of nature's masterpiece of physiology does not mean his analogy is useful or coherent with the respect felines deserve. I consider it a disgusting analogy unfit for repetition. Innumerable metaphors can be imagined for the wavefunction "collapse". The intelligent people using the German guy's worn out ,unpleasant and childish could create their own description and stop boring people with this German guys irrational quirk.

20 seconds in: 'consciousness is different, something special, not a computation' So this is WU ! He has absolutely no reason to think that consciousness i a 'different' non-computable phenomenon. The whole argument for his fanatic search for 'something special' that gives him free will, is that we react too fast, so therefor ---> we are an antenna that 'tunes' into universal 'consciousness'. This is just dumb reasoning on top of a religiously belief in us being something special, so therefore we must have special connection to the universe. I had hoped that hooman exceptionalism was a dead thing within research, but apparently not. He never makes a good case for why he wants or need to raise 'consciousness' into a new special universal force, and he doesn't make it clear why on earth we should even begin to look for such a special new wu force of 'consciousness' when so far all behavior are explainable within the current physicalist science. His theory have no cause other than what he feels _should_ be there. Completely unnecessary and MEGA convoluted theory about something that are just normal bio computations - whether we currently know the exact pathways or not. Stuart is smart and super confident, but he can still go sit in the fanatic-corner with Deepak, Graham and other WU speakers - where he belongs..

@phoboskittym8500

5 ай бұрын

Look up Penrose's tile sets in geometry, Consciousness, and specifically UNDERSTANDING is not arrived at by classical computation Based on Gurtles Theorum