For better FPS (and less CPU usage) I'd suggest adjusting that -vf:scale to downsize your stream from it's native 1680x1050 to 1280x720 (or 720p). Then ffmpeg only has to do half the work in compression, which will help reduce load a lot.

@RichardiOS275

2 жыл бұрын

you mean 1280x800

@Megabobster

2 жыл бұрын

I think he tried this but the load of scaling was greater than the reduction in compression

Did you try '--threads 4' to ffmpeg, to use more of that G5 goodness? It might not do much though with ultra-fast encoding settings (difficult to parallelize). Increasing the quality settings may actually speed it up when multithreaded.

@joelavcoco

2 жыл бұрын

Might the distributed threads actually work faster than the ultra-fast encoding on a single CPU core?

@KatouMegumiosu

2 жыл бұрын

I'd additionally recommend rebuilding ffmpeg with CPU specific optimizations.

@Megabobster

2 жыл бұрын

This is something that was brought up on the streams, and it was a deliberate compromise to not use all the system resources on generating the stream itself to leave some to spare for other tasks. A stable 10fps with headroom was preferable to not having anything to spare.

@joelavcoco

2 жыл бұрын

@@Megabobster If that became a problem, presumably one could set threads to 3, leaving one core to do other things. Also, see my later comment on using another PPC Mac as an X Terminal -- probably not for the Quad G5, but in the event of earlier PPC shenanigans.

@edenrose2374

2 жыл бұрын

@@Megabobster You can set a cap on resources for ffmpeg and lower the process priority so its giving more priority to other tasks.

I have a tip: replace the old crusty termal paste. With high quality one. It helped me a lot with the g5 quad. Edit: don't forget to recalibrate the fans

@eduardocarrasco8830

2 жыл бұрын

Is it true that you need a special software in a cd to boot from it and do the calibration ?

@sysierius

2 жыл бұрын

@@eduardocarrasco8830 yes, but it is easy to get on internet

@RobotnikPlays

2 жыл бұрын

I'd even go ahead and replace the old crusty fans with some Noctuas or something with a little less whine

@sysierius

2 жыл бұрын

@@RobotnikPlays not possible, because apple's fan pins are different from pc's

A GPU with the correct codec gubbins would help a lot. Offloading the encoding to the card would mean you wouldn't have a whole processor pegged and you'd probably get a better framerate out of it

@raspberry1440kb

2 жыл бұрын

It's highly unlikely such a GPU with PowerPC Mac support exists.

@golemnety

2 жыл бұрын

Can't you do any amd card with the Foss drivers?

@amirpourghoureiyan1637

2 жыл бұрын

@@golemnety Power Mac cards had a different bios to the Intel Macs, I doubt we'd get past the POST screen for a driver to work

@raspberry1440kb

2 жыл бұрын

@@golemnety I'd be really surprised if any of those modern drivers are included in the PPC tree, but I guess it's possible.

@thedopplereffect00

2 жыл бұрын

@@raspberry1440kb don't forget he's running Linux. The BIOS might not even need to touch the card.

You know you're in a bad spot when a PowerPC-based machine has double the ram of your main rig

@bibasik7

2 жыл бұрын

Same

@bland9876

2 жыл бұрын

You know you feel like a scumbag when you have 2 gaming PC one with 16gb and the other with 32gb also one has a 1060 3gb and the other has a R9 390 8gb. Yes I will be selling one of them but Wich one? Hmm?

@BringMayFlowers

2 жыл бұрын

It's not that big of a deal, modern PowerPC (since renamed OpenPOWER) can get up to 2TB DDR4 and was the first to support PCIe 4.0.

@bland9876

2 жыл бұрын

@@BringMayFlowers why is there modern power PC? What's the application for using it vs x86 or arm?

@BringMayFlowers

2 жыл бұрын

@@bland9876 Mostly for datacenters, supercomputers, and servers, but there's also a niche in libre computing because the desktop computers using it have entirely open-source firmware, no Intel Management Engine analogue, and the CPUs themselves are manufactured in Europe. Plus, owing to their main uses, they're stupid powerful, with four threads per core, a more efficient ISA than amd64 but more powerful than most ARM chips, and can handle ridiculous specs no issue. It's also an open ISA, you don't need to license it from the OpenPOWER Foundation, IBM, or NXP to make your own.

I'm just waiting for a video to be titled I've become a PowerMac lol

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

My brain still runs at 68000

@JohnSmith-xq1pz

2 жыл бұрын

@@ActionRetro That explains a few things...😉

Try a Radeon GPU (maybe as secondary) with hw encoding acceleration. I wonder if driver would compile. I’ve seen Terascale GPUs being used with exotic architectures successfully. Though GCN is much better supported nowadays.

This makes me regret selling my mint Quad G5 so much... I was just too afraid of the whole LCS going boom (I used it as a daily driver). I even had a whole spare LCS kit around as a spare. =) Now I use a late 2005 dual core 2.0 and it generates around ¼ of the heat that the Quad does and the fans NEVER ramp up. I remember checking the 970MP white papers and it's really waaaaay less heat. But it would probably lack the horsepower to do anything like that. When it comes to electricity... I think that melting a whole new computer, mining the metals, transporting everything around... well, uses more electricity than your G5 will ever consume. Super great content - you are incredibly charismatic.

One of the criminally underused capabilities of the X Window system is its network integration. Way, way back when I was playing with Debian on 68K Macs, i had a notion to use one as an X Terminal for another, saving CPU cycles on the application server, and moving video memory to the dedicated terminal machine. That probably won't be useful on the Quad G5, but if you do try Stupid Streaming Tricks on lower-end machines, I wonder what it would do to hang a G3 iMac off a G3 Tower on a dedicated Ethernet port, and then use a separate network adapter for the stream. Don't run X on the tower at all, and save all its CPU time for encoding the stream. I have used Pentium II/III-era Celeron systems with 64M of RAM as diskless X terminals for more powerful x86 application servers using Linux Terminal Server Project under Ubuntu, and it worked very well. Not sure how well all that will build under current Void or Adelie, but it would be very cool to try. Think of it as AMP -- Asymmetric Multi Processing.

this channel has come out with so many retro computing innovations/achievements - one could fairly say it's actually curring-edge retro-computing (if those two phrases can be used together)

Such fun shenanigans, as usual! Keep up the great work!

My favorite line of yours, Sean: "If you like torturing geriatric Mac shenanigans,,," Kills me every time! XD

Sean, that is AMAZING!!! Also spotted your TAM in the background, very nice :)

I think it would be really cool if you figured out how to modernize the G5 liquid cooling system! I've seen some work on this online but I've always lacked the confidence to try it out myself. I'm guessing you could reuse the cold plates and replace the tubing, pump, and maybe even fans.

This was a great experiment. Cool that it worked out quite well after all the effort you put in !

For me, it's very funny seeing you find a practical use for that Power Mac monitor because I have the same exact model as you, but I've only been using it as decoration on a hallway shelf in my apartment since I found it at a thrift store. Great vid super fun concept!!

Top Vid Saun. you could also use an irc client to view twitch chat. might use a little less resources. Ive got geos irc on my c64 to view twitch and an irc client on my G4 cube to view mine. All the best with the project!!! very interesting

AR! Good show, I'm still ROFL! Your old Mac shenanigans are the best! Thanks for the Saturday morning pick-me-up! I think if you have a new NVIDIA or ATI card that you can flash for PPC firmware [if you want to be able to monitor the boot], or just stuff in a modern (well, mostly modern; you'll be severely limited by power headroom - if memory serves the dual-G5 2.5GHz is a thirsty beast already, adding a 400w GPU will probably set the power supply into shutdown.). ffmpeg has options to use hardware encoding -- which would offload the *Very* hardworking thread for encoding. Best of luck! Look forward to the next G5 stream! :)

I have to also add that I've been watching this channel since your third video and it's absolutely wonderful to see how it has grown.

This reminds me a ton of when I was a kid playing with alll the different configurations of wmencoder (Windows Media Encoder). It was some of the worst low frame rate streaming I did across a LAN, but I learned a lot about RTMP/RSTP

Excellent, and to get some extra performance you can use other device to check/chat thus not hogging down one G5 with the heavy Firefox; also I'm no Linux expert but I'm pretty sure you can "tweak" your streaming processes (ffplay and ffmplay command chunks) to run with priority of resources over the rest of the Linux tasks.Keep improving, you're on the right path with PowerPC Linux to bring new life to those venerable machines from the 2000s !!

@edenrose2374

2 жыл бұрын

if firefox was compiled with cpu optimisations for that CPU it would also perform alot better. | although i think midori or firefox fork would of been a better choice.

I love this. Seeing you making so much use of a G5 that everyone else would consider obsolete I hope you can still continue making use of it in the future. Especially since web browsers really are the thing that make computers struggle the most these days.

@fmlazar

2 жыл бұрын

It for all intents and purposes is STILL very much obsolete, but for a machine a quarter century old, it's pretty impressive.

Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your content. You're really underrated, haha.

Man. I'm incredibly surprised how well that thing performs! Still. a 2005 desktop PC that supports most new hardware, is incredibly ahead of its time.

Im suprised twitch even works on a G5

Curious to see how well it'll work with a GPU with h.264 hardware encoding. Also wonder if you could downscale the desktop resolution to help?

I love these kind of experiments, it is so interesting, maybe with a little bit of code optimization you could get a bit more fps, but that would be a lot of work, if you get a gtx 1050 maybe nvenc would work

That's really impressive. Congrats on making afilliate!

The past few weeks I've been seeing what websites I can use on XP on my Pentium 4 system. Looks like Twitch is next!

Simply love Your videos. Keep a good work!!

You're the happiest mascohist I've ever watched. Wonderful stuff.

I had a PowerMac G5 like this one at work in 2007 (graphic design); when they gave an early Mac Pro I could not find the difference. Neat machine.

I was able to stream with a copy of old Wirecast on a PowerBookG4

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

Oh awesome!

Question... I used to have (probably do in storage somewhere) an Elgato turbo.264 usb stick for offloading encoding on old pre-Intel Mac, in particular my first gen Mac Mini. That might be PERFECT for your G5. Not sure how to call it from Linux but since Elgato is still around, they might have assistance there.

Hay I have a monitor that is also 1680:1050 as well. Never heard of such a resolution until my dad gave me one. I use it as a secondary monitor and it makes it look like I have two monitors that are the same until you realize the ones slightly shorter. The one used in this video looks like the one he normally uses but longer.

Sean, I am totally loving this stuff - and I didn't think I would be as keen on it , even as a Linux user on my modern computers (Elementary, Garuda, Ubuntu at various points) - I wasn't sure what it actually brought to the table for PPCs until your newest vids. Embarrassingly enough, I used Linux on my G4 for a period of time and just felt more restricted (it was a few years ago now). I am VERY looking forward to what happens with your 'modern' gpu exploits. I'm excited just thinking of putting a HD 3850 AGP into my MDD, let alone a 1050 in a 64 bit G5. Yikes! :)

I think it's a great idea trying to use old computers to stream to Twitch. The fact the quad G5 is able to do this and play *games* blows my mind! The computer is almost as old as I am and it's amazing that it can stream at a useable framerate.

Totally just purchased a G5 Mac after watching your channel for awhile. I want to go off the deep end and try doing Linux From Scratch. I have a passively cooled nvidia 730 I want to try to run with it.

I had a dual PowerPC 2.7 with an ATI Radeon X800 XT back in the day. This video gave me much nostalgia.

I know I'm really late to the party, but; I'm not surprised at all that the G5 quad can handle twitch streaming. I used to be the head editor of a weekly TV show, and on more than one occasion we were running so close on time, that I had to broadcast a live render of the show from inside of Final Cut Pro, with legal sitting in on it on.😅 For those curious, I set the render preview target to one of the film team's digital cameras via FireWire. This was played live on the camera, and mirrored to an HDMI output onto the live broadcast feed. I forced a 1280x720 resolution for the render preview in Final Cut. Iirc, I was limited to mixing 2 effects across 4 video tracks with overlapping footage before it would drop frames. If frame drops happened, it was game over for the broadcast due to desync issues. Never once dropped frames as long as I stayed within my self imposed track limits. This used to be more common in the industry than you might think, and it saved our bacon on more than one occasion. EDIT: Grammar and a word.

May I ask, what do you need Debian Unstable for? Stable has good package selection and if you REALLY need a newer version of software you can use Flatpaks, a local bin folder in ~, a custom repo, or backports.

It's nuts you got that working

I'm already smiling seeing "OMG ITS NVME" on your Void Linux desktop. Cool experiment as always.

Yo Sean been following along and doing the same on my Raspberry Pi4. I worked out if i have my cam or mic plugged in while trying to stream my fps drops to around 10. If i dont plug either in i get a solid 30 which its set 2. might be a reason for your low fps 2? maybe something to try. All the best

Glad to see you in front of the camera these days man. It feels super awkward at first, then weird watching yourself back as you edit, but gets easier each time! At least that’s how I felt about it, but I’m super introverted.

Does twitch ONLY support h264? Some previous generation codec might be faster to encode to. In theory you could ALSO scale down the image to 720p with FFMPEG

@action retro do you think the super jacked-up g4 cube would work for streaming to twitch? it would be a stretch I know!

I wasn't sure how to convey this info across without drawing attention to it for other people, but your stream key leaks in this video since ffmpeg shows the output URL in plain during the console dump even though you're sourcing the key from a local file. You may have already refreshed your key after this video, but just a heads up. Cool setup though! :D

hey there, love your videos, recently got into tinkering with g5s, have 4 of them. most recently acquired for free (found on the street) a G5 dual core 2.3 with PCIe!! couldn't believe it. first test for me is doom 3, surprised how well the pcie 6600 handles it compared to the agp 8x 9600. i would love to follow along and try out void linux, but my Linux knowledge is poor. Would a void install tutorial be possible? I can get the G5 to boot from the void live DVD but installing onto the internal HD (partitioning, mounting, etc) is beyond me. cant get it to happen, very frustrating. anyway, i look forward to your next video and all the best. cheers.

Sean That is A Crazy set up but very neat you were able to stream to twitch

You put all the MACYAK peeps to shame with taking the PowerPC challenge to THAT next level! IMPRESSING work!

Nice video, but could you do a video on installing void? Im stuck with the installer

Hey you can Install a HD 6570 as second GPU in the System and install drivers, there are a lot of KZread Tutorials. In Theorie it should be also possible to install a driverblob from a modern amd GPU to the Openfrimware, to use it nativ. Like in a Raptor Talos II…..

What is the audio player featured at 18:00 ?

I think this should be revisited with a fresh thermal paste application on the cpu's and a more modern video card. I bet it would help immensely.

I was in on that last stream! It was late and I was in bed but it was still so cool to see it working!

Just a pointer on ffmpeg: you were encoding on a single thread, thats why your encoding performance was so poor. However, PPC has a built in co-processor unit for decoding video. With how ffmpeg hooks on to the screen buffer you can use the accelerator to decode the bitstream (input) to reduce both latency and cpu load, before encoding. As far as the encoding, id suggest getting a usb power H.264 hardware encoder. it will accelerate encoding video for twitch. | If thats not a option, then using additional flags to enable opencl to do alot of the heavy work in ffmpeg to reduce more overhead would help. Remember PPC has some some amazing features, accelerated opencl is possible on ppc's co-processor architecture. Everything that reduces load on the CPU will increase efficiency of the desktop (thus not restricting the CPU's performance). Lastly, using ssh or a external serial tty would be better for controlling your stream/encoding. without taking up screen real estate.

Hopefully swapping out the graphics card with something that has an onboard encoder should help with the framerate. If you've got a USB capture device, you're probably better off just using the G5 to capture and stream the video and audio from those older machines, overlay the webcam, and mix in the microphone audio. Even at 10 FPS it was pretty painful to watch, I'm guessing 1 or 2 FPS would be downright awful. I just looked up the GPUs with hardware video encoding, and it looks like it starts from the Geforce GTX 600 and Radeon HD 7000 series. Which is a shame, I just bought a Radeon HD 5770 for my first gen mac pro, so I guess I wont be doing much twitch streaming! Although I don't know which hardware encoding engines that FFMPEG supports anyway.

Unless this is part of your upgrade path, just in case you didn't know the 2.5 GHz Dual CPU "Quad" G5 isn't the fastest they made... They did have a 2.7 GHz config that I think might have been a CTO option, but I don't see why your current motherboard there wouldn't take 2x2.7 GHz CPUs... That could aid in resource management if even just a little, and maybe OBS would work properly (once you sort out the GPU factor). lol. If this won't work for any reason, please let me know, correct me if I'm wrong, etc.

@virtualtools_3021

2 жыл бұрын

Wasn't the 2.7 dual CPU not dual core?

@ShiggitayMediaProductions

2 жыл бұрын

@@virtualtools_3021 That's a good point.. IDK then

@thegeforce6625

2 жыл бұрын

Those 2.7 machines are only 2 single core CPU’s, unlike this 2.5 machine with 2x 2 core CPU’s.

@ShiggitayMediaProductions

2 жыл бұрын

@@thegeforce6625 Yeah I realized that after some quick googling... Oof.. Oh well... it was wishful thinking.

@virtualtools_3021

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShiggitayMediaProductions it is probably still faster in a lot of applications since multi threading wasnt so big back then, and it has a higher bus speed

Is it linux, ffmpeg and twich takeing advantage of ALTIVEC capabilities of the g5? Or is there a way to increase performance with that?

@EscurelEsquire

2 жыл бұрын

FFmpeg's asm structure uses AltiVec or VSX as needed. Trying to micro-optimize FFmpeg's non-asm code with -mcpu/-mtune flags generally isn't a *huge* gain.

@joelavcoco

2 жыл бұрын

@@EscurelEsquire I have to wonder if 'generally' doesn't mean x86, ie. generally, FFmpeg is compiled and run on x86 (x64) architecture. Also, I wonder if this use case may be one of those where any little improvement might make the difference between barely usable and marginally acceptable.

@EscurelEsquire

2 жыл бұрын

@@joelavcoco By 'generally', I mean that the compiler translating the C/C++ code into SIMD doesn't often improve speeds much when the main code paths being used have dedicated asm devoted to them (and FFmpeg has a **lot** of dedicated asm, including for AltiVec and VSX), so the critical pieces aren't being sped up that much. For parts of the codebase that *don't*, sure, whatever the compiler does would be the only thing you can rely on, and it might be the thing that can push it over the line into usability, but it highly depends on the workload and input/output formats. And separately from the machine tuning, there's also the influence (or potential influence) of the -O flags, which depending on the size or complexity of the code, can make a pretty huge difference. It wouldn't surprise me if distro maintainers tend to err on the side of caution and compile everything at the software's defaults, which is often (usually?) -O0 - or in other words, not turned on at all. It is somewhat trickier dealing with that, though, since some software will just break at higher -O levels. Somewhat of a case-in-point, FFmpeg-git (or 4.x, 5.x) can do ~100fps (or more; IIRC, the 100fps number was actually under Leopard, not Void) decode of 1080p H.264 on the G5 Quad. VP9 @ 1080p is even watchable, hovering somewhere in the 30-45fps range. And all of that is on the CPUs, thanks to the AltiVec asm it includes (the FX4500 only has an MPEG-2 decoder, so the graphics card is doing nothing regarding that). Granted, these were somewhat short tests, and it was at the profile/level/bitrate constraints that KZread uses for its videos, but the H.264 number shouldn't be surprising at all given that machines like - and including - the Quad would have been getting used in media production right around the time of the widespread adoption of HDTV and the launch of Blu-ray, and even for several years after that. But then again, FFmpeg has had 17 years to get AltiVec into at least the common decoders (I didn't really try and benchmark any of the encoders).

I would like to see Linuxfx on a PPC64... what are your thoughts? Do you think it will ever happen?

Those streams are fun

If you get a newer video card can't you get H.264 encoding offloaded to the GPU?

My Power Mac G5 set me back a whole $10. It came without a drive so was wondering how the drive bays worked. Looked inside followed the top drive path upward then figured out... oh this is some kind of rubber screw thingy holding these drives into the bay. Then I look at the side of the bay and there are four rubber screws sittin' there for a never-installed second hard drive. Boy did I feel sharp! For ten seconds anyway.

I have an older dual processor g5 with pci-x. Tried to stream to yt years ago but it didn’t quite go well Hell, even my intel 2010 MacBook lags with OBS the built in Nvidia 320m is too sluggish for fast video . I agree offloading to a better video card would help a lot. My Radeon x290 on my 2009 Mac Pro does well. Yes, I still have my g5 as well.

Is there a way that I can get an ADC video card to work with my late 2005 G5 quad liquid cooled? I have both a Sawtooth G4 (with an ADC connector that doesn’t work) and the aforementioned G5 and with enough power, but doesn’t seem to have a PCIe ADC card made for it. I just want to be able to turn one of them on with the monitor power button😢

It breaks my brain thinking this computer is 20 years old, while when this was released, 10 years earlier, Apple was still releasing Quadras as high end computers... Feels like we didn't even had time to realize how crazy fast things evolved. When I bought my mac se/30 in 2000, it had been obsolete for so long that it felt already like retrocomputing.

Sean, if you think that the Quad G5 is a lot of performance out of the PowerPC architecture, you need to get your hands on a Raptor CS Blackbird desktop -- it uses IBM's POWER9 with up to 8 cores (though 22 core CPUs are available, those are reserved for the Talos II workstation/server), and is the way going forward for those of us who want a more libre hardware option that's still modern.

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah I do really want one of those

@BringMayFlowers

2 жыл бұрын

@@ActionRetro I'd recommend you build rather than get it prebuilt, it'll save you thousands and you can get a larger case that fits a GPU.

Is it possible to install Sorbet Leopard on a G5 PowerMac?

How are you using nvidia on PPC? I have a PMG4 with nvidia and I can't get it to do anything. :/

Could you not use OBS as Administrator?

This is a great use of older technology

have you thought of upgrading the gpu to perhaps a modern AMD GPU and trying hardware accelerated video encoding on that? I believe the open source AMDGPU driver should be all you need to get that to work, assuming you have the right gpu.. is there perhaps a limitation to what you can put in a G5

@partitionpenguin

2 жыл бұрын

and like the other comment mentioned you can get real OBS running if you fix the compilation flags - i bet you could also cut down on some resources by not having to run a web browser for the twitch chat

If you don't care about period correctness, you could probably get a modern AMD GPU to work if you compile the FOSS driver manually

Why did you use a very old version of Firefox?

This is great 👍

Legends remember the Five Nights at Walter Whites experience from a PowerMac G5 lol

men, i need your help i want to compile, jpcsp (a java psp emulator) for my power mac g4 with linux, how i can do it?

Oh, was it you who mentioned the systemd bug on the mailing list?

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

hah, not me, but I've heard of several people who hit this snag

I see that "OMG ITS NVME" on the desktop...

Would a 1060 be too much for it? It is according to steam the most used card by steam users and 4 cores with 16gb of ram seems to be the most common configuration. Also wouldn't a stronger but not too strong GPU take some of the overhead off the shoulders of the CPU?

@0xybelis

2 жыл бұрын

Nvidia GPUs do no have good open source drivers. AMD does.

Challenge : Install Gentoo on that PPC machine! The time required for compilation would take a lot of time..

Cool Hoovies Garage Shirt!

How can install it in a iBook G4 Let me know you help Thanks

OBS can be installed with xbps-install

12:11 it's not in the description :P

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

Whoops! Thanks

Can you stream from an apple ii?

'San Francisco' and 'warm' are not things I'm used to hearing together as someone who spent half my life in the Bay 😂

HA! Love the Hoovie's Garage shirt!

Would love to see a super duper mega power video card in this dinosaur

"The payoff was worth it!" Yup, you could go to a vending machine and walk away with a coke, a snickers, and fifteen whole cents from that Twitch payout! Seriously though, I'm just proud of myself for getting my Intel based MacPro to do anything interesting, this is next level! Gogo G3!!!

I love how you can hear the powermac screaming in the background.

ppc64 mac binaries of ffmpeg and stream from mac os?

@ActionRetro

2 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly!

Can you get a Chromebook streaming in Android?

ALL THE SHENANIGANS!!

Yes it's very concise for an ffmpeg command line 🤣

Why Void instead of Adélie? I suppose Adélie is still just a release candidate but it seemed to run pretty well.

Man I've always thought of the g5 as one of the fastest apple computers, I don't understand why it couldn't

next up: RTX 3090 Ti on a PowerMac G5

@virtualtools_3021

2 жыл бұрын

Next up: replacing the EXPLODED PSU on my PowerMac G5

I use a G5 with leopard as my daily computer for everything including KZread. The challenge should be using native os x vs Linux. Yes it's a pain to constantly have to write code to keep my ssl certificates updated and some other tom foolery with WebKit but that's what keeps the computer useful in my opinion