It's incredible how much faith you have in party finder.

@Ikari1212

Жыл бұрын

better than sitting in PF for 3 hours straight just to disband after 2 pulls. You'll disband after 2 pulls anyway. Might decide to fill it faster as well.

@soluslunares6682

Жыл бұрын

Exactly this ^ you cannot trust people to do standard positions and you want to open that floodgate. No thank you but in a perfect world you would be right sir.

This is the reason people lock to 2 melee: Usually a 3rd ranged will join and not be willing nor prepared to adjust and be a fake melee. They join expecting everyone to adjust instead. Which just makes it all a huge waste of time. I think it's basic party finder courtesy to not join a party expecting someone to adjust for you, same thing with people that join another party and wanna use their own markers or change the strats and sometimes even change people's job's. It's fine to do that with your friends, but not with people you don't know.

@Rukia21love

Жыл бұрын

I literally had a tank that kept asking my pf that was a static of 5 members wanting us to change it. Because he didn't want to the method my group used. This was for p10s. I know when I join a pf I am ready to adjust to whatever strats the pf leader is asking. Not the other way around.

@Glandire

Жыл бұрын

​@@Rukia21love We had a whm join 7/8 people. He was doing spreads wrong aka killing everyone in p12s by standing on not assigned spread pos like three times in a row, then told us 'guys we should try out my spread strat instead it's clearly better' actually unreal 😂

@ucnguyentien6553

Жыл бұрын

I think if you join a party when it already have a caster/pranged everyone naturally expected you to take melee pos (first come first serve am i right?). Expecting everyone to adjust for you is just pure selfish/skill issue imo

@a.e.richardson218

Жыл бұрын

Ngl I force people to do basic adjustments when I play black mage like in bonds 1 3 and towers

@khys4772

Жыл бұрын

​@@ucnguyentien6553that's what I do on BLM. I ask the pranged if they're fine with doing fake melee, but I don't have any issue taking it myself.

I have had too many instances where a ranged fills a melee spot and then dips 20 minutes later after wiping a bunch because they can't drop the muscle memory from being in ranged positions. Yes I'm sure there are a lot of people who can do it no problem, but I don't know if that's who I'm going to get. I'd rather have the comfort of knowing that everyone is used to their positioning.

you make a valid point but also there are A LOT of ranged players who refuse to take the melee spot, no matter how easy it is. i make the fourth dps spot free but if 3 ranged players join, people get very pissy and expect bad damage right away, leaving the party and so on. when it comes to skill diff, i don’t think you understand how scattered the pf really is. a green parsing samurai will still do more dmg than a really good machinist. and i wouldn’t say that there are any more ranged players who are much better than an average melee player. and of course any fight is clearable if you just do mechanics and don’t die but that’s like saying a water is wet. idk how often you pf but an average pf run is not gonna be super good, people are going to make mistakes and die or get dmg downs, and most of the time double melee and/or good support players make up for the lost damage, whereas if you have a smn and a rdm in a party together and one of them dies the dps check becomes very tight, there is a big difference. like i agree with all your points like i know excellent mch or rdm that could outdmg a bad rpr and so on but with pf you never know and it is usually more guaranteed if you have two melees, especially if they are both good or at least one of them. it is completely different in a static environment. my static has a only one melee and smn and rdm in one party. and i trust those players so i have no issue with it even though my chain feed on sch is not the highest but i don’t really care about that just yet (they all do sufficient dmg, just there is a difference between a samurai feed and a rdm feed).

@MrJjjakey

Жыл бұрын

Agree heavily that people enter this weird state of panic at the sight of 3 ranged however a green samurai (Around 30 percentile SAM is 12k dps) does not beat a really good machinist (any MCH over 70 will do more than 12k dps).

@larcenciel7428

Жыл бұрын

@@MrJjjakey ok maybe a blue one xD or high green

@Ikari1212

Жыл бұрын

then don't join as 3rd ranged if you don't want the melee spot? simple logic.

@MrJjjakey

Жыл бұрын

@@Ikari1212 Frankly you're right, but people in PF make that everybody else's problem for having made that mistake.

@Glandire

Жыл бұрын

Honestly if the boss dies before enrage who cares. The only thing I find funny is people who join last usually expect people already in a party to flex for them, I often end up fake melee cause some 'i only can do r1' no negotiation person joins in. And then they sometimes go to wrong spread spot or something anyway which makes it even funnier.

they lock it because ranged in PF cannot always adjust to a melee spot and it causes a lot more wipes more often than it works out well

NA PF does the same thing. I think another major reason people lock double melee isn't just that people think they won't do enough damage or must have 2 melee due to the 2 "melee positions," but also people just don't trust a random PF player to be able to adjust to fake melee positions in a strat where they have most likely only ever done the ranged positions. In a fight like P9S, melee positions normally are not too different than doing the ranged positions (different clock spot) but for some fights like P10S, the positions can be vastly different between ranged and melee (different spread spot, bond spreads, tower positions, turret bait order, etc. depending on the strat) and can cause a lot of issues simply due to relearning and wrong muscle memory. That being said, I think the #1 reason people lock double melee is just because... that's what they see everyone else do (or they think they are supposed to). Personally, I always lock dps roles in such a way to ensure 1 caster/prange/melee to get the full 5% party buff and leave the last slot open to any dps, but that's mostly because I play caster and I am comfortable doing fake melee in any fight. I can see why someone who isn't comfortable being fake melee would lock it to double melee just to ensure they aren't forced to fake melee, or force another ranged who joins to do it if they don't know melee positions.

@darkuszow1667

Жыл бұрын

"people just don't trust a random PF player to be able to adjust to fake melee positions in a strat where they have most likely only ever done the ranged positions" is pretty much the main reason, people can go mad all they want about this topic but the only way to "fix" it is making that one spot open to anything and typing everytime in your pf that the caster/ranged should join only if they can adjust on melee position

@caseyengland4031

Жыл бұрын

That's literally it. People want to get in and out. They would rather waste time on KZread waiting for a melee who has the muscle memory, than keep it open to double range. Odds of getting a player who will need to reprog parts of the fight to learn the positions is way higher than the odds of getting a solid player who can easily adjust. Especially later into the tier. Same for players who will "swap to healer or tank" just to fill. Then we spend 10 pulls on them reprogging to disband. Would have rather waited for the support roles to fill in the first place

@kroganlauncher

Жыл бұрын

Yeahp agree with all of the above. I rather wait for a second melee spot to fill (not like there is a lack or melee players either to be honest so it's the first thing to fill usually) than risk reprogging and then disbanding over someone adjusting and fighting muscle memory

@StarRoseDragon5

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. There have been many times where I would join a party and it’s with 3 range. Then the question of “who is going to be fake melee?” Gets brought up and everyone is SILENT. We all know what’s coming. Someone leaves, then we have a whole party falling apart. Sad it happens, but that’s how it is. VERY rarely do you have a range being ok with fake melee, but it’s not common.

@MrLyramion

Жыл бұрын

I did a lot of P12S prog with double ranged or caster. Often the unwritten or written rule is "Last Ranged that joins gets the Melee position unless someone else wants it"

Funnily enough I used to have the last spot open to any job, but then started locking it to double melee... The reason? A lot of players in my experience can't get out of their comfort zone when it comes to their positioning. Heck even just the other day, I had multiple memes coming from one of the melee players because he was in G1 and was used to G2.

My experience with 'fake' melee caster/range has been mostly negative, so I can kinda see why people prefer a 2nd melee over one faking it.

Most of the time having 3 range is a pain in ass, from fighting over range spot to fake melee being a headless chicken to overriding addle and phys rang mit I'll stick to double melee thanks

I disagree with this, pf is not flexible when it comes to ranged going into fake melee spots. If I can't expect R1 to go R2 sometimes (cause they do meme a lot), how can I expect them to play M1 or M2? Again, I had good experiences of running 3 ranged comps, but those are usually after midnight parties with more experienced players.

For most fights, I will set up the 4th slot to be open to any dps. The strats are usually very similar no matter if you are ranged or fake melee. However, some fights I will lock it to double melee to avoid the headache. The fight that caused me the most problems with triple ranged was p8s. The strats on NA meant that playing melee involved more awareness of what was going on than a ranged player. Most ranged players were not used to doing the debuff tracking and it meant that they couldn't do it comfortably. Triple ranged would wipe over and over to the same thing due to uncomfortably. You may be a confident and skilled player that can adapt to strat spot changes, but a lot of pf players are not able to do that. However, if someone messages me saying they will fake melee on a pf I've locked to double melee, I'll open it up for them.

Make your own party. This means party comp is up to the party leader, respect the starts listed while you're at it too. If you want the shenanigans of fake melee, just make your own party. The game will absolutely server you that dish if you order it. Perhaps some etiquette would be nice, like the late ranged to join should be expected to fake melee by default, and not bully casual raiders to flex when they're already busy memorizing where they need to be. Not everyone can play the fight from every position, while they can play what they know very well, it's just how the FFXIV player base is.

@Zackarco

Жыл бұрын

Exactly this. Also helps that if you join as melee and want to play ranged, ask the person who made the PF if it's cool with them if you play a third ranged. It's not cool joining in as melee then switching to ranged before the PF leader queues everyone in to the duty. It's a fast track way on getting kicked and blacklisted.

There's even a weird new wave of party finders on at least NA where it's locked to double melee, and the other two slots are locked to double ranged, not caster and physical ranged, just both caster or physical ranged, they're fine with double physical ranged double melee but not double caster melee physical ranged.

as melee i always open up as double melee....if some1 messages me he can join as caster and take the m position i inv him. I just dont wanna have ppl join without looking whats in party and than figure out whos comfortable as fake spot. Muscle memory is a thing, i dont have damage output in mind just the movement and position of the roles

I play in JP and the reason why we usually have it locked is for consistency so we can focus on our usual positions, optimized damage since it’s PF even if the DPS check is low I’ve seen so many enrages and 1% wipes that the 1 extra melee actually made the difference, we also don’t want people kind of fighting for positions or leaving since they couldn’t get their usual positions There’s teams that do leave it open for all and that’s fine but it’s just this is more consistent even if slightly so we’re just more than happy with 2 melee, 1 range, 1 caster

@mysidian

Жыл бұрын

You realize BLM and MCH do really good damage now, right?

@komurmaldeb

Жыл бұрын

Here's the thing, though. Any black mage worth their salt is more than able to flex for melee positionings (and in fact, in several fights it's *preferred* to be able to have a melee spot on black mage for extra uptime), and does comparable if not greater damage to other melee dps jobs. Even if you don't want to swap out a melee for a summoner or a bard, at the very least black mage is entirely viable as a filler for that high-dps 'melee' spot.

@Kisogai12

Жыл бұрын

@@komurmaldebwell that’s the thing BLM is the highest dps dealing class in the game atm and yes its perfectly doable but it still doesn’t change that it’s under the assumption the player would even be willing to assume D1 role Like I said, we just like to roll with our usual spots for consistency in PF so even if we open it up for BLM/melee most players will straight up leave just cuz we personally don’t feel comfortable and I think it’s fine since it’s to each their own If you don’t like the way a PF is being run just host a PF under your own preference

@JUstMoveee

Жыл бұрын

This. You take every free bonus damage you can get along the way and also more often than not fake melees will fuck up one way or another. Heck even in my old casual static I've seen enrage way too often in Aspho even p1s-p3s with I think it was even BiS pieces minus the p4s loot.

I can maybe kinda understand this if it's week 1, and you need all the damage you can possibly get, so an archetypal party composition is just giving yourself any advantage that you might need. But this far into the raid tier, with Echo, there's no excuse. You can easily clear with four dancers if you want, especially if they've got anywhere close to BiS as many of us do if you've done any raiding. A well geared player with a suboptimal role will always do more damage than an undergeared player in an optimal role. My first P11S clear had triple Black Mage (I was the best one), and we did perfectly fine.

I've done a lot of PF'ing in NA, and some in JP too. For ultimate pf's besides TOP, the last slot is usually open to any job besides brd/dnc. People are also more flexible with being a fake melee. And in some of the ulti's, double caster is straight up better. But for savage pf's, alot of casters just aren't comfy with being fake melee. The only caster that wants to fake melee is red mage, and thats if they are comfortable swapping positions. I have already come across several dps that are used to only doing D1/D2 or D3/D4, and some parties straight up disband because neither dps is willing to flex. This tier, many people have stopped playing melee in pf so I do think more people will be willing to open the last slot to caster/melee. The only fight where I have noticed an issue with double caster is p12s p1/p2 clear pt's. Usually pt's with a rdm and smn comp just do not do enough damage to clear without a perfect run, not to mention double phys ranged comps. Its not really an issue about gear at this point, its more about people's rotation. Your average dps in pf is not going to be super optimised at a fight they haven't cleared. In your average pf, 1-2 dps will be reasonably geared and optimised and the other 2 will just be doing enough to get by or less. So with a rdm and smn comp where both jobs are in need of a buff, you just dont do enough dps to clear. The only exception to double melee is having a blm + other caster, and the blm needs the caster spot so the other caster needs to know how to fake melee! What you did in the video, which was sending a tell to the pf host saying that you can come on the last slot, is the right way to go. It might also be a good idea to either say you can fake melee or ask the pf host if somebody else can fake melee if you join. Because thats the major thing that puts people off from setting the last slot to more than just a melee. TLDR; BLM is probably the best dps in the whole game right now at the highest level, but I dont think all the savage pf'ers keep up to date with the current meta job! This issue will never go away, all we can do is set our own pf's with the last slot to melee/fake melee and write that in the pf description. Or if we are the ones wanting to fake melee, then send a tell to the pf host saying so and asking to join. If there's one thing I've picked up in PF, its that you should never be afraid to ask.

What others said, people can't adjust for new position and it will be a fail more often than not. P9S yesterday, there was a huuuge deficit of tanks on Chaos. We finally get the missing tank, it later turned out it's a healer main. This person came to my h1 spot for spreads multiple times, wiping us once and nearly wiping us three times after that. The only reason it 'nearly' happened three times was because I'd sprint to my spot and they had enough eyeballs to adjust when they saw me. And they were fast enough to not clip anyone! That being said, having enough eyeballs is a pretty rare quality in PF in the first place. With PF problems and drama, having a yet another drama for position is an unnecessary risk. People will leave your PF when someone else calls out their spot before they can. Some people even call taken slots in PF description, so the other person from the pair knows they have no other option than to play remaining available one. And people will not join PF is they are M1 and PF description says M1 is taken. Lastly, if you unlock last spot to any dps, whoever joins might not be aware that they are joining as a fake melee. They might fill up your pf, removing it from the list, then disagree with being fake melee and leave pf, so your only option to open up PF again and start at the bottom of the list. And people not wanting to be fake melee are VERY likely to happen. What I would do is to lock to 2 melee, but have description that fake melee accepted if they message. If someone knowingly messages me and says 'sure, I can fake melee', then I'd open it up for them and be more confident they are not gonna flip out - and that they are mentally preprared for it.

i had one very bad experience when a black mage joined a pf with a smn, dnc and sam and said he didn't know how to fake melee so he asked one of the other rangeds do it. this was p8s mind you, so melees had to do the flex for snakes and natural alignment that one-trick ranged players won't learn. none of the rangeds wanted to learn snake flex and natural alignment flex on their weekly reclear pf so it devolved into a huge argument i partly see your point for duties that only have minor adjustments, but i've had incidents where a healer who is used to h2, goes to h1 spots out of habit and wipes the group multiple times. i think your mistake is that you give too much credit to the average pf player. i do not trust them to be able to adjust to a new spot without incident

@destrmath

Жыл бұрын

Opposite happened to me in p8s. I play blm, nin, and smn (as well as a healer main but this is about dps) (on smn)I offered to ranged for the blm in p1 and melee in p2 so they could have all the uptime in the world. They just....couldn't.

don't think the higher skill summoner out performing a melee applies this expansion unless the melee isn't pressing buttons

Kinda shocked to see so much disagreement, I got my first clears of p9s and p10s with triple-ranged and was often the fake-melee for progging. I even found my current static by joining a PF prog party that was running triple-ranged (they do run double-melee for our full group but they happened to be looking for subs that day with unlocked roles so lucky me). What SUCKED was waiting for 1.5-2 HOURS for two melees to join party on raid nights with my previous static because the leader was too stubborn to unlock the PF roles when we already had 3 unique DPS roles in the static, and we were even raiding on the busy data center. I’d much rather do a marginally lower amount of damage with a “non-optimal” comp and actually get to play the game and see the fights than sit around waiting for a PF to fill for the length of a full lockout

Come now... you often hear people dying and memeing because "Sorry, muscle memory, I'm used to being in Light party 1/2, or SE/SW clock." Pretty sure that people would meme to fake melee strats too. You can adapt for sure, as you are skilled at the game, but the avarage party finder player will likely cause 2-3 wipes before being able to, defeating the purpose of saving time on re-clears. All your points are valid in regard to ''Skill>Job.", but on Party Finder you don't assume the players are going to be good. You assume they going to suck.

There are too many situations to count in recent memory where the strat calls for ranged fixed and melee flex. It is one thing to expect somebody to take a melee spread spot. It is another entirely to ask sonebody to flex based on some debuff on some other person in the party list when they have never needed to do that before. I will always accept a willing fake melee who sends a dm. But I'm not configuring the pf that way.

Mostly the reason why people lock double melee is because ranged don't know melee positions which is like 90% of all parties unfortunatly and they refuse to do it, so there's the reason why you see double melee the most

At first I was about to say that the PF probably wanted a caster res just in case but in your scenario they already had a Summoner, so in that specific case I agree that the final slot should be open to any DPS. But I also agree with the comments in that often casters or physical range being fake melee, it tends to get messy due to muscle memory.

Pf can't fake melee it's way too common as a point of error. 2 melees is consistent for all skills and players

I do this out of habit admittingly, but I don't have an issue with double range or caster. In fact, I remember the pf I cleared p11s had 2 ranged phys. It was funny cause there was a drk in that party who was being annoying about it and had to be told that, yes, we still get the 5% bonus with the comp. We got to Lotl (not great for a clear party but it showed we could clear if we could reach it) and he just dipped after that one pull. We refilled and got the clear in about 3 pulls. NA pf in particular is fairly picky about stuff like this though so it's just something that most players need to deal with I think. This video will make me take this into consideration in the future though since it's not a really that big of a deal.

i have a friend with this mindset and I've challenged them multiple times about it and honestly I he keeps citing the same tired reasons about dps I think these people actually just think phys ranged players are bad in general and will therefor perform worse, they just won't admit to it easily.

I noticed that too in pf, in certain fights I am more comfortable as my range spot in my static, but I can mostly do any position. when our melee was on vacation and we filled up with pf, I left the last dps slot open for all, because as the devs say, you can clear the content with all classes and it is either leave last dps slot closed to second melee, wait for hours, or open and get in faster yes TOP is designed with double melee because of last phase, but that does not mean, every fight is designed for double melee. and just because some compositions are the "meta"(because week 1 prog is not long term), does not mean you can clear it, if people don't know how to play their classes.

Ive cleared content with double caster, double melee, double physranged just fine. In some encounters not having 2 melees is actually really good.

The unfortunate part that you're missing is that most of the players in this game are absolutely garbage and can't even do their own duties, let alone possibly adjusting. Almost every single party has 1 or 2 of those stupid "Can I take this spot, I'm used to it" people who still fuck that up and are garbage. It's better to try and not understand it or just make your own pfs if you wanna do that and help out.

People often also do double melee since the amount of people playing melee being much higher than caster/ranger so you often have to wait for a caster or ranged and often make it double caster or double ranger to even get it through pf as I have seen. Like melees are often the if not always the first spots to fill up in comparison.

@Kizoja

Жыл бұрын

You can set it up in a way where the melee, phys ranged, and caster slots fill first and then the last one open to all three fills last.

@GenerelSeem

Жыл бұрын

@@Kizoja It still dosent change you have to often wait a long time for a ranged or a caster compared to getting one to two melees as i have seen.

In theory, sure, but most pfs are trap parties anyway so while you say you have faith the average pfer can adjust in 60 seconds, I do not share that faith. Second, melees are usually the first spots to fill and most parties on NA usually wait on a prange or caster so in practice I don’t believe this would change much at all, at least in terms of dps slots.

Besides the job locks ilvl lock drivers me crazy. I want to help people clear but I don’t wanna play my main job I want to have fun on alt jobs. I cleared week 1 with 640 and 640-645 should be enough to clear even with deaths. Over 25 clears with solid experience and performance don’t matter to people it seems even when I try to send them a message sometimes they just ignore or say no. I wish people would stop ilvl gating I don’t care about loot I just want to have fun and experience the fight on a job other than tank.

@kalimae4243

Жыл бұрын

This will never happen due to the nature of PF, if you don't set ilvl you gonna see people with 630ilvl in p9s and 640ilvl in p12s after week 16. Also mitigation in PF is pure random so you might as well have everyone geared up so they don't die to an aoe at some point of the fight.

@Bankai90

Жыл бұрын

@@kalimae4243 Ye just today our tank was 632 in p11s.. Also higher ilvl often helps to keep out people who have less clears and thus get more ppl in which are more consistent.

This is my experience everytime not doing this : 3rd range joins : says he's r2 or r1. people tell him that those spots are taken and no one wants to adjust. 1 person leaves followed by 4 other people. stuck in pf for another 30 mins at least. if u wanna join my party as a range and willing to take a melee pos just pm and i'd unlock it. but otherwise i cant trust people who already dont communicate what roll they even wanna play in the first place to actually adjust to a melee one. i've never unlocked the 3rd spot for a range and had it turn out good unless someone specifically asked for it. and I've never cared about the 5% and usually have both ranges unlocked to both phys/magical.

Melee DPS do more damage. In PF groups, sometimes not having enough damage is actually a problem on P11 and P12. If everyone is very good at their job, it doesn't matter. But the fact is, that it does matter in party finder. Bringing a smn and a rdm is a huge damage loss compared to having 2 melee and a blm, as an example. The group comp could matter a lot for less optimal PF groups. All this being said, BLM should always be allowed if looking for another melee. BLM does just as much damage as a melee right now. But the other ranged classes are simming, and performing nearly 10% worse. That is not insignificant. You're also ignoring the factor of a ranged player now having to do all the melee jobs. This is a mental shift that some people take a few (or many) wipes to get used to. Wipes just because the fake melee is going to ranged spots from muscle memory are just annoying and avoidable entirely by having 2 melee. All your points seem to assume that the players involved are all good players. That is factually the wrong assumption to have when pugging in party finder.

It’s because they don’t wanna be forced to play fake melee pos… and I hear you saying the pos change is minimal - but many people can only play r1 OR r2 in pf - they can’t even play both pos for their role - only one. I understand that the 3rd range joining should expect to get fake melee - but still - that’s what I’ve heard from EU pf’ers

Reason I lock my dps slot to second melee? To make them lb instead of me!

@CocoBanana99

Жыл бұрын

this is the way

@lopezzy8429

Жыл бұрын

this is the way

Most people can't even do their own spot let alone flex to a different one. Could some people do it? Sure. Do people want to waste their time finding out if someone who probably didn't plan to flex join and suddenly flex? Probably not.

You can’t trust the ranged or caster to do the melee spots. Hell you already can’t trust half the melee players to be able to be G1 or g2-there are SO MANY people who can’t swap between the 2, and now you want somebody to swap the role positions as well?? Naw.

I love leaving the slots open. Always fun to have random comps. Thankfully, what I see here on NA is way less job lockout, and much more post-fill questioning of why someone joined outside of the "meta". But usually, no one cares as long as people can adjust

A lot of people in PF struggle to adjust from M1 to M2 and from R1 to R2, etc, so for a lot of people doing even something a little more different is going to lead to a bad time, unfortunately. And that is even IF they want to do something different. In a perfect world I would agree with you, but as it currently is - it just sounds like you haven't been PF-ing much.

Locking 2 Melee DPS spots because a lot of guide makers, including you, sometimes noted on some mech that it required Melee to do "Sometime" and in PF, some of those Ranged dps aren't expected themselves to be at that "Melee" spot. Also, it has been almost traditional since the Omega raid to have 2 melees for the same purpose and the same reason. If you want to get rid of this traditional away all guide maker should making guide that fit with any dps adjustment or mention that is for D1-D2 else they will still assume brainlessly that D1-D2 is only for melee while it actually fit for any type of dps but one of it has to leave for Melee for Roles bonus.

I will not stop. Every single time I opened 4th DPS to any carnage ensued because they couldn't adjust. And when I get a tell to open 4th spot usually the joiner expects someone else to adjust to fake melee. Never again.

I love you.

I’ll tell you why! It’s because I’m a noob in PF and thought you needed double melee, physical ranged and magic ranged to get the 5% buff

I often lock double melee, but I'm not afk while my PF is up. If a caster/Phys ranged wants to send me a tell and they're confident playing in the melee position, I'll take the group down immediately and let them in. But a lot of PF isn't like that. I don't trust them to adjust, muscle memory is strong and I've had too many cases of DPS wiping the group because they're not playing the position they're used to. Melees across all percentiles are doing a lot more damage than ranged, a 10th percentile MNK does as much damage as a 40th RDM, for example. And the argument "you could be locking out an amazing MCH in exchange for a shitty SAM" doesn't hold and water because you're just as likely allowing a bad MCH in exchange for a good SAM. Not that damage is as tight as last tier, but it's PF, there will be deaths, damage down, and worse players. Damage is still important. You also don't necessarily speed up the time for groups to fill, I'm rarely waiting on a melee to join as the last spot. Waiting for the final tank, or a caster, or a healer is very common too. Either way an interesting video! I'm sitting on the fence for this one, both sides have merit

@mariwhya

8 ай бұрын

I've definitely seen 3 ranged PF that will stay unfilled for a long time... because people don't trust that third range to adjust to melee. PF has a set of basic "rules" or courtesy checks. It works for a reason...

2 Melees is locked because ranges don’t like doing adjusting. Only ones that enjoy that is Black Mage. So yes people continue to lock it to two melees because rangers don’t know how to adapt. Everyone remembers P1S. Having melee flex with tank which made no sense instead of just having Range flex with tank and not lose any positional when range can hit the boss anywhere. Ranges would join these Pfs even though it SAYS they will be doing the flex and then soon as we go in or wipe they say they don’t know how to do it or want melee or casters to do it instead. Has nothing to do with damage has more to do with in general that range jobs don’t know how to adjust. If a standard comp isn’t done. All they know is NW. so people continue to lock it to two melees if you want a higher chance at a clear. Also the fact that a lot of people depend on third party plugins to tell them where to go a range taking a melee spot will screw it up most likely.

the answer? i dont trust random pfers to fake melee, they can hardly do their own job let alone a different job

I'm one of those occasional double meele lockers. If you don't play on tuesdays/wednesday pf can be quite a struggle. Last thing I need is a guy who played R2 only decide he's gonna hop into the m1 spot cuz he can prob wing it. While most of those can't even handle their own regular spots without grief lel. Not to mention even more often the 3rd rdps joins without realising he's the 3rd one, and then just goes on with the flex while having no clue about meele posis. While I started to play some rdps myself and would wish double meele wouldn't be a thing, dmg is like the last thing I care about when locking double meele.

I don't mind as long as the extra range can do melee position correctly. Sadly oftentimes it can be a meme fest of 'sorry muscle memory of my range position'.

Being somebody that mainly plays Dragoon what are the major issues I find the most when I'm queuing up for trial or dungeon or even Alliance raid is finding that one person that is actually semi-decent at their job so I can actually share my Dragon Buff's with. I recently just got done with the first half of shadowbringers and now working out of shadowbringers to get in to end Walker. And that dungeon you have to do before you go and face off with Hades. Me and my friends which bless their souls for helping me get through this got stuck with a samurai that I either swear to God didn't know how to do their job or worse just so new to the dungeon that they just didn't know the mechanics which I was new to the dungeon too so I can't really blame them for that. What houses make sense I'm a Dragoon we are known for dying but yet I only died five times at the very last boss because we just didn't understand mechanic but yeah here's the samurai guy who has died a whopping 20 times in it. In this was even after we got passed be at Aureus DPS check the very first one that you will ever face and now would get this thrown at you in every single dungeon I'm told from here on out I was able to clear on my first go and not even die and again I'm a Dragoon we're known for dying. But because this person was dying so much I was afraid on giving them my buff because if I give it to them they're just going to die and then it's just going to be a complete waste. So really what do I do in this situation because I don't know anything about Samurai so I can't give the person tips on what to do and I was going to the dungeon for the first time as well so I also can give them tips on any mechanics because I didn't know what the hell any of these mechanics even were. So what do I do next time?

Well standard is tank, healers, 2melee 1 ranger 1 mage. So Its normal the spot is locked to melee. Recently for some reason I've ended up in 3 ranged one melee parties. Is that a new meta?

Looking at data it's simple to see that between high damage class(melee+ blm) and low damage class (all the other) there is a 5%(NIN to MCH) to a 8%(MNK to DNC) dmg difference. So it's ok saying that the fourth spot can be taken by a (average or better) blm, but getting anything else is a serious drop in damage on average. Unless you are in the conditions in which you overkill the boss every pull, or don't reach the enrage at all this gap can be the difference between a kill or not, so it is totally reasonable for people to enforce the double melee meta. It would be better to include blm into the fourth spot but that is too thin an argument for a large mass of players. Until they close the gap between the high damage jobs and the low damage jobs this is the right approach.

locking double melee in savage is fucking wild when ive cleared TEA with 2 gnb 2 sage and 4 mch and we had better dps than most standard comps

While a range can definitely take a melee spot, I've yet to consistently see ranged in PF who learn melee positions. As a RDM main with a melee rotation, I will join as a third range to take fake melee to increase my uptime and time my rotations better. But I can guarantee you that most other range players rarely, if ever do that. Adjusting also takes time and practice and if that means more wipes to a clear, then locking two melee is better. I also believe that locking the range to a phys and caster is also optimal. Unless you have two casters that will properly communicate about their addles, in P9-P12 where there is a lot of magical damage, nothing drives me up a wall more than a fellow caster who doesn't use their eyeballs to see that I've already addled an attack. This is all optimization in PF courtesy because we just want to get it done and over with. I don't have time to waste on people who can't adjust to fake melee or figure out how to stop overwritting addles.

I feel like the damage issue is potentially quite serious especially if people are not confident of their own damage in the first place. Looking at statistics right now in fflogs, the median dps of melees is roughly 800 dps more than the median of non-blm ranged. The lower quartiles of melees are all above the medians of ranged. This means a melee parsing green will outdamage a ranged parsing blue. Statistically speaking you're gonna get more damage from a melee than a ranged, if you do not know his skill level. The argument is that you won't hit enrage if people don't die, but let's be honest people do die and clean runs are pretty rare in pf, they're like the $100 notes you find on the street. That said, for some fights like p9s to p11s the dps check isn't that harsh, especially now that it's week 6, but for p12s i still think the added melee damage can compensate for a death somewhere. Regardless, I play in a static with a double caster (rdm/smn) comp and we just recleared p12sp1 with a dps death, and p12sp2 with a dps and healer death. But everyone plays their job well enough and I don't know if pf can be like that with the ranged jobs. To be fair this damage argument doesn't exist for blm especially after the recent buffs, and for fights like p11s and earlier there really isn't a dps argument anymore, but well people can be hardheaded sometimes. I have definitely seen more leeway now for triple ranged parties, especially prog parties tired of waiting for non-existent melees.

This annoys me so much. It's not just the double-melee lock but people treat casters and physical ranged as the same and often lock 2 melee spots then allow 2 casters in to the others, preventing any physical ranged joining the party, losing that buff. Some people argue that the extra 1% doesn't matter if you're not going for logs but the defense and HP increase helps a huge amount, especially for prog. I would say that is more important than the LB generation for prog, personally. Whenever I host a party, I always lock 3 DPS spots and then have the last one open to all DPS. Some times, (as an example) the party will get 2 casters and a melee before a physical ranged joins. In these cases, I've sometimes received tells from people saying something along the lines of "You accidentally locked the last spot for ranged" when it definitely was deliberate to get the full 5% bonus.

Classic Squeenix not sharing resources on raid comps, or at the minimum optimal 2-min button opener placement / tips, or (most importantly) learning different positions of spreads/groups... As melee and PF maker I'd try to ask the double ranged / caster if they can do co-melee, or even the co-melee what spot they'd prefer and I'd flex. If not, it's a kick. No time to waste for the one-track brains. New raiders not understanding the nature of PF: you won't have your static positions twice often unless with a friend, group or static. Unless making your own, good luck And thank you for making this Rinon

I think having an unlocked final spot is ok in reclears where most of the people are likely going to be over-geared already anyways, as well as being pretty solid with mechanics, but not for prog groups. It's a huge waste of time in a prog group, especially groups that are planning on clearing in that session, to have someone come in and adjust as a fake melee because most people that are joining prog groups or people that are progging as well, and will most likely NOT have the solid mechanics and awareness to adjust to a fake melee spot. I've personally been in multiple prog groups where they DID bring in someone to fake melee and it has been a shit-show 99% of the time and many of those groups even REGRESSED in their progress because of that fake melee that suddenly had to adjust to a melee spot. Despite the 5% cap and cutting a lot of potential dps down and taking longer to PF, it's still generally more worth it to lock it at 2 melee and 2 ranged because you may not get as many pulls in, but you're much more likely to consistently get to the mechanic you're group is progging or even past it.

It’s not about damage it’s about positioning most people have muscle memory to the ranged spots, yes as a day 1 clearer you’d think it’s so easy to just adjust but we’re talking about pf here. It’s a little naive to think that hey it’ll only take 60 seconds to learn a diff position. That’s having way to much faith in the player-base,but I understand why you’d think that when you usually play with better players. Even myself as a blm I’d lock it because I honestly don’t wanna fight muscle memory and have to be fake melee in PF where if everything isn’t perfect people leave after 3 runs.

Im agree to this and i always keep the 4th dps slot open since i know players play pranged jobs and i play main them so giving them a chance is fine. Ive been doing alot of fake meleeing this tier as a pranged and im starting to prefer it overall. Melee dps is not my cup of tea but i can do melee movements in p9-12s. this tier there were loads of pranged players and casters > melee dps too so by limiting to double melee you make those players wait longer or have them forced to learn a differnt role in a fight (which is a coin flip) in the end you get people who meme and now you disband and back to waiting for a 2nd melee. I stated this issue that i would quit pranged overall since PF is not friendly to Pranged mains with the number of dancers / mch around taking the slots. It gets to a point to where people prog skip which ends up a clin flip on if they can do the mechs or not. You are right this tier you dont need double melee to clear. ALL you need is everyone who can press buttons and play their job well enough to clear while doing mechs. Id rather have a good BRD / DNC over a bad melee just my take.

I have been in partyfinder a fair bit in every tier since the release of ew on both chaos and light and I have seen every single role leave a party more times than I can count just because they didnt get the side they prefered to play. you saying "the average partyfinder player" would only need 60sec to adapt to any position is probably the biggest bullshit I have heard all year, 60 pulls would be closer to the truth.

I honestly think the reason people lock in places like this is to avoid quarrels among the ranged on who gets to fake melee. Not many are comfortable / able / willing to swap positions there.

My favorite is on prog parties but the party leader checks fflogs and if your logs don’t meet their criteria they kick you.

Unironically I have seen the same cases for range. Someone locked out Brd and DNC and specified the party role only for machinist.

As a summoner i agree. Run in the same issue. But i think that for p10s is better to have 2 mellees, because if the ranged person is not familiar with the pos of melee than its a wipe

So... 2 things... I mosr cases healing 2 melee is easier than healing 2 mages and pf struggles enough as it is Second, unless you are planning on playing BLM fake melee most of the time if not all the other mage or phys ranged won't agree to be the fake melee in pf

Just make your own group 4head.

except the whole problem that: A) You’re already rolling the dice on PF people being able to do their own job, let alone flexing to a fake “melee” spot. B) I’ve had Black Mages ruin more clears then help this tier as it is :)

Honestly I dont blame em even if it is annoying that people think they need double melee, but so many times I wouldnt lock my rolls expecting savage players joining would know to check what jobs have joined so far. That was a mistake, and many more similar faith based mistakes were made that have honestly made pfing impossible unless you lock everything to keep griefers out.

The whole pf system needs a redesign, it's just so annoying to use, one of my biggest wishlist items is to make Duty Complete only selective if everyone in the party has actually completed the duty, I've been burned and wasted so much time by duty completed parties trying to carry their clueless friends but never disclosing prog points, another would be different duty for part 1 gate and part 2, been burned by so many lying prog scumbags, if you have not even cleared the gate boss you should not be able to join my P2 pf.

I usually ask if the party doesn’t mind taking a 3rd melee(me SAM) and that’ll I’ll willingly take the ranged position. I’ll do this for both learning parties and farming parties and usually get an okay. I’ll see the pf drop shortly after with the last slot open.

@anthony26812

Жыл бұрын

That isn't what rinon is talking about, but it's fine ig if the party is ok with you lowering their stats that could potentially cause problems

@paradeoffools

Жыл бұрын

@@anthony26812 I find that most parties arent failing because of a boss enrage that could be narrowed down to a photo finish of DPS. I see parties brought low due to Brink of Death’s resulting in drastic damage downs. Or members just out right dying to mechanics. I have seen my fair share of photo finishes and I’ll say its not because we lacked dps. Its just folks failing to do mechanics that a 1% stat increase wouldn’t fix.

@anthony26812

Жыл бұрын

@@paradeoffools u forget the 1% is not just for damage, it's for healing and health as well, especially for p11 and p12 the party takes a lot of dmg from mechanics alone and the healing requirement is higher so having that extra bit helps a lot.

U are the guy from dworim’s videos! Big fan here looking forward for u guys to clear the upcoming ultimate

I will admit, as a SCH main I always lock my cohealer slot to regen in my clear PFs. Double shield *can* clear (and I have done it before) but it is far less comfortable in my quick reclear parties compared to the traditional regen and shield. Mostly because Sage and Scholar mix like oil and water without perfect coordination, and good luck getting that working in PF lol

@RinBanana

10 ай бұрын

Whenever I've gone double shield in PF, I'll communicate where I'll be using Adlo spread or Zoe shields, and otherwise play it by ear. Having access to both Soil and Kera often reduces the need to GCD shield raid damages aside from the aforementioned ones, so it works pretty well in the experiences I've had!

i used to not care until i had ppl join as a ranged when there already was 2 and expect somone else to fake melee or i had a bard and a dnc join on week2-3 clears for svg while if ppl where actually good it might not matter there is a reason why we prefere 2 melee and i as the person making the party am not up for the hassle of vouching for others when ppl already in my party just wanna get it over with "oh sorry i forgot, not used to it" is getting old. i should add i dont play dps so i cant be the one to fake melee for them in the case of a funny comp

I'm playing D4, entered fresh party because most other parties already have D4 in them. Then after waiting for a while, one SMN joined, I told that guy I can only do D4, never replied, upon entering the instance he claimed he's D4. then I just keep standing at D4 positions. and he got angry. Unless you asked permission to switch pos, positions is pretty much first come first serve. Also depending on the fight, some fight is easier to switch around, some fight isn't. Also when they did PF for a while, and one of the D4 pos, lets say BLM left the party, and it's locked to that 1 job, I just go in as BLM then switch to my main caster job.

I PF quite a bit and tbh I would prefer duplicate jobs and the LB generation hit that comes with than triple ranged because it's more likely the party executes properly (at least in reclear groups) without needing LB than it is for a fake ranged to do melee positions (for fights like p10s where that's meaningful). I remember groups complaining about whether the NW corner starts with the 1 or 4 marker on p6s of all things... The majority of this community can't handle the smallest deviation. I'll do triple ranged or even triple melee when I sub on my alt for a friend group, but it's just too much to expect of the PF community IMO. And can you blame the party leader? They're stuck on p9s enrage to clear prog, they rightfully shouldn't expect anyone in the same boat that isn't helping to be any amount of flexible.

Especially in this tier where’s there’s basically no damage checks at all.

I have no doubt that the thing about playing what jobs you wanna play is important, and that's comfort; and if people are comfortable flexing, let them be. But then the majority of players were unable to flex or unwilling to flex because they have been progging on one spot. That's mostly how JP raiding works where almost by default some roles always gets the same spread spots - H1 is always pure and H2 is always barrier; d3 is always range and d4 is always caster; d1 d2 has a priority system where SAM is usually d1 (and even melees will pull out if they don't get what they want). And it isn't just about spread spot, there's also priority strats that the person on the lowest priority and highest priority has less to think about. If you get used to do d4 and never has to thought about because d4 is the lowest on the priority and now you are d2 and you have to look at several people's debuff, that could become a problem. You might have to reprog. None of these are really that big and besides some specific cases (like bond 3 movement where it's really about muscle memory) you can argue switching spread spots is not that big of a deal. However, knowing where you will be spreading before you even get into the instance, knowing your priority is still the same and don't have to compromise to a new spot every single time is also comfort. If allowing double casters or double ranges means both of these players expect the other to be able to flex, and would argue, I don't think that's comfort at all. That's a dogfight. As for the DPS, a bad melee vs a good range comparison is essentially a false dilemma as these are not the only two options. Except for BLM, A good melee beats all of the options. On PF where people are struggling with dps checks (despite how lenient the check has been this tier) you can't really blame them to chase that good melee. I don't necessarily lock jobs. I agree you can clear on any sensible comps. I agree with the general take. But I have a lot of sympathy for people who lock, perhaps that's because I am mostly PFing and I realize how much people has been struggling with DPS checks. I for one would not be comfortable if I have to switch between group 1 and group 2 healer since I have been only doing group 1 and have gotten used to use all sorts of markers/floor patterns as reference for movement. I am not very adaptative, but I don't have to, which is why I like raiding in JP.

ngl I'm guitly of locking the free slot to melees + blm in reclears because i want my pretty number and a second physranged will lower my rdps and thus my pretty number

Amen, I'd rather have someone who is flexible in all positions (or proactively willing to be) than someone who can only play one. That generally tells me they have plenty of prog time under their belt, good spatial awareness, probably aren't learning their rotation still, etc... I've found people who can only play one position generally aren't comfortable with the fight as a whole, and thus are more likely to cause wipes even if they are playing their preferred spot. As caster, I'll usually ask for R1 spot in P10s since it's a bit comfier (especially as RDM), and a lot of phys ranged will tell me they "only play R1". No big deal to me, I know the fight just as well as R2 and if that's true I'm not going to force you to fight muscle memory... but these stubborn players still perform abject memery regardless of what spot they are in. Insisting on one spot is fine in prog, but to me it's a bit of a red flag in clear/reclear parties... Also, it should go without saying that if you're going to join as second caster or second phys ranged in a clear party you should be the one ready to fake melee, don't force it on unsuspecting players.

@RM-eh3uq

Жыл бұрын

This applies to PF strats too, I know a few people who loudly complained about pf "forcing" certain strats like JP limit cut and generally refuse to consider or adapt to anything different than what they first tried in pf. These guys are usually bad. Be proactive rather than passive in PF, you will be more valuable.

The average melee will do more damage then an average pranged/caster. An exceptional MCH/Caster will outperform an average melee. I'm going to keep locking double melee, no amount of goofy ff14 content creator drivel will change that, it is not like I have not entertained the idea of letting ranged DPS cook in my parties, hell even yesterday I let a BLM into my p9s party because he whispered me saying he can do m2 spot, not only did he not know where the fuck that was despite it being colour pairs, he also messed up limit cut 2, rear kicking the entire raid. In other instances we have let triple ranged in, they say shit like 'idk how to do melee spot, I only did this on r2 etc'. Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass. I encourage you to make an alt where people do not recognise you and PF without going live so your PF is not full of your twitch chat players, so you can see how PF really is.

I like what you say. I like having damage. Deaths cause more DPS loss than role switches.

I simply do not trust the average pf player to be able to competently be a faked melee. If a ranged player messages me for the 4th dps slot and volunteers to be fake melee, then I will be more than happy to let them join as that shows a degree of confidence on their part.

I've yet to see a fake melee not become a third ranged slot that screws up mechanics. I get what you're saying, but the reality just doesn't play out as optimistic as you're portraying it here. And TBH, when we're looking for a melee fill in with for a static, I'm less inclined to do that by default unless the rest of the static is OK with it because the last thing I want to do is waste everyone's time because some idiot can't figure out how to fake melee.

*kill/reclear:* I always leave the 4th DPS slot open to all melees, all casters, and MCH if we didn't get one as Physical Ranged. *For practice:* I don't care, any dps can join.

@TheAzarak

Жыл бұрын

You might as well open it to anyone at that point. Bards perform better than MCH and RDM, and dancer isn't far behind RDM. All ranged jobs outside of BLM are very similar in damage anyway. If you're going to let RDM, SMN, and MCH in, there's no reason to exclude DNC and BRD. Remember that rDPS is the relevant metric to compare jobs with, if you're not. Sure ACT shows the BRD very low compared to the other DPS, but they give out around 2k DPS in buffs.

To be fair waiting an extra 30 minutes to find a specific job to clear something a minute quicker just seems like bad time management to me

I see where your coming from but in practice everytime ive let this slide in PF its been nothing but a disaster. Blackmages in general are already extremely suspect if im doing clear runs / 2 chests because they will drop leylines out in the middle of nowhere mis heals and then complain about not being healed when its not a *parse* run. Yes blackmage leylines can be annoying to use but wiping us for leylines is just not okay. Its esp frustrating as someone who loves blackmage and played it since heavensward the job doesnt have movement issues anymore at all. Aside from minmaxing leylines damage there is absolutley no reason to be doing that outside of week1 groups or something minmaxing damage for difficult clears. IN party finder I dont think this should change with the current state of the game. it makes it much easier to assign melees and tanks or ranged with healers etc. in statics i think its perfectly fine to run whatever setup everyone is comfortable with.

As other people have said, PF does this because PF dps are too smooth brain to adjust proper. It is much easier for bad players to just hide behind double melee locked PFs instead of trying actually learning to adjust properly. It is a shame that is how they approach it.

I feel you need to look at this in a more pragmatic fashion, understanding what the PF experience is. SHOULD it be this way? No. But it's PF. You're gonna get a bunch of random people that want to maximize your chances of success and avoid wasting time... consider these points: 1. The average savage raider is highly inflexible. PF is notoriously bad at flexing positions, adjusting on the fly to resolve a mechanic, doing boss relative rather than fixed, etc. People are bad enough at flexing spots such as M1 to M2 or H1 to H2. Having some random player flex into a "melee spot" is an even risk that most people don't want to take. Add to this the fact that PF is filled with a bunch of liars/imposters when it comes to their prog points etc., even someone saying "yes, I can flex fake melee" will have some people skeptical. 2. PF doesn't read. Half the time people join and don't even know the strats being used. Do you expect that last person filling that flex spot to actually realize that they're signing up to be the "fake melee"? 3. This is all being done for the sake of mitigating the chance of wasting time. Waiting the extra time for a 2nd melee pales in comparison to wasting time bringing someone in, wiping it up because they don't know how to flex (or not even pulling to begin with because they refuse the fake melee spot once zoned in), and having to jump out and recruit again. This is a calculated cost most are choosing to take. Again, it'd be great if people were more flexible, learned different positions, and would be more flexible in admitting people. But realistically, this is PF. People are just trying to not get their time wasted, ESPECIALLY since PF rng already does a good job of wasting people's time regardless... people are worn out and will do everything they can to attempt to increase their odds of getting through their clears/reclears. The opinion of letting anyone in is great and all, and shifting the community's attitude would be for the best, but you do have to recognize that it's also idealistic rather than being baffled that PF acts this way.

@av2279

Жыл бұрын

I agree to all your points. Except on point 1, you should specify "the average PF raider is highly inflexible." Raiders that have been in statics for even just a few tiers are by this point used to the group getting subs and flexing to other positions/duties for a few nights, or changing strats several times in a tier to accommodate better dps, less movement, etc. That's why, from their perspective, raiders that primarily run in statics are shocked by how unable PF players are to make adjustments that they see as easy/no big deal.

@itsam4r

Жыл бұрын

​@@av2279 I'd argue that the "average" static raider is just as inflexible, if not moreso in many cases. In a static, they have the option to always have the same spot and run their strats consistently. Skilled static raiders (as well as PF raiders) can flex... average static raiders not necessarily so. I've been in enough PFs where someone reclearing away from their static gets lost because they can't flex from their usual static strats or spots, apologizing with "sorry, in my static I usually..."

@av2279

Жыл бұрын

@@itsam4r Fair point on your first point. The consistency of being able to pick your spots in static runs might also lead to less flexibility overall. On your second point however, you've also surely been in enough PFs where someone reclearing away from their static *doesn't* get lost, and just goes to their new spots, and thus they don't need to apologize or point it out, and you therefore don't notice that they are flexing from what they are used to. If you're only aware of the fails and not the successes we can't use that particular experience to say that static raiders are less able to flex than PF raiders.

@itsam4r

Жыл бұрын

@@av2279 Same could be said regardless of someone being from a static or a primarily PF raider. I was moreso just pushing back a bit on the point that static raiders are more flexible on the whole. My main point is that what you get in PF is random, so people are going to do what they can to mitigate the issues that stem from the randomness. I'm not stating whether any of this is right or wrong either, it's just the reality of the though processes that PF goes through.

When I make a pf I'm always on melee. I set dps to caster, ranged and then any. Whatever I get is whatever I get and if you join as last dps slot on ranged or caster you better expect to fake melee.

As a BLM main I am more than happy to take the melee spot as it's more convenient in a lot of cases. One could argue about meta comps during Abyssos where the DPS check was relevant (but still doable with 3 decent ranged players) but Anabaseios checks are an absolute joke so there is absolutely no reason to lock double melee.

yeah i kinda prefer having double melee to just avoid the issue of "not used to faking melee"; sometimes pf kinda sucks. Personal experience from last week p12 reclear: the reaper died in UAV2, after they got raised, they LB3 and we just manage to get the kill last second, if they are a caster then i will be the one to LB3. and we prabably wont have enough dps to meet the checks, slightly more room for error i guess.

idk bro when i was progging p8s there was a time when a majority of my parties had a ranged as d2 and it never went well

While I agree with your objective assessment of the situation, you seem to forget how PF is. You just can't expect a good player to join your PF, if it happens great, but most of the time everyone in the PF will be an average player. Making the comparison that a good SMN/MCH/BLM will join your PF and outdamage an average melee is all well and good, but the truth is 90% of the time both of them trying to join will be about average players, and comparing the average melee to the average ranged/caster still means the average Melee does more damage, not to mention the fact that Melees have more HP. How many times in a PF do casters die to dmg because the PF is not fully coordinated when it comes to mitigation/healing? Do you really want to bet on the 2nd ranged/caster joining your party being more skilled and doing more dmg than an average melee while also not making any mistakes that could get them killed by a raidwide leading to a death and even less DPS? Not to mention the average PF getting dmg downs or deaths regardless of the comp. It's also important to consider the type of PF it is, if it's a practice PF then just stick one player per job and the 5% bonus for the extra HP and leave the slot free to whoever wants to join and learn the fight. But if it's a duty completion, people don't want to waste their time and die to enrage over and over, and if they believe double melee lessens that risk, why wouldn't they? You could make the argument that yeah, 8 of the best players on their respective server got together and after many hours of practice cleared TOP without healers. That doesn't mean you can go on PF and expect to do even P9S without healers. So while yes, you are completely right that the last spot should be free, there are reasons enough for it not to be as unfortunate as that may be.

Ofcourse you know why... it's because the game format is typically 2 melee and 2 ranged. So people will tunnel on 2 melee and not consider one of the potential 3 ranged just running as melee.

I find people who can’t flex so funny. I did my reclears this week on smn - having never done anything but healing in savage so far - and I did a positional meme ONCE… and it wasn’t even a real positional meme. I was just not fast enough. It was as fake melee, to dark current; the chasing aoe behind me was faster than I was expecting (as a healer, I barely even notice that that aoe exists at all because of where I start for the spread at the same time). Back when my static still progging 11, after raid my mt went into pf on SAM to get his clear; my mch semi-regularly does fake melee in pf after raid; our caster sometimes fills as healer…

Well, I totally understand your point. But for me, besides the fake melee position and muscle memory issues from other comment. I want to say, for me, dps means more tolerance and easier to meet dps check. Even though it's already a lower dps check this tier. But PF won't be like a static, with my static, we can have 2-3 ppl die and clear the fight easily. But PF, there are a lot of team which cannot. And the fact is that, unfortunately, a "grey" melee can out damage a good range for most cases. And more dps means you can tolerate more ppl making mistakes and still meet the dps check. I think the real issue is not for the ppl, it's from SE. They made this obvious gap between different types of dps jobs. Especially, in TOP, they almost made a mechanism in P6 to basically expect 2 melees to use LB3 to clear. I think it's a result from their balancing and design. I remembered back to previous expansion when ranges' dps was not this far from melees, there were more unlocked 4-th dps PF teams than today. If we really want to change this, we should speak more to the development team to stop gapping the range and melee. Anyways, it's just my opinion. I would rather blame SE than the players for having this environment.

double melee is meta and its the leaders job to make sure the party has the highest chance to clear. Therefore triple melee it is.