Then there is Sweden, casually keeping a lot of priceless artifacts looted in Poland (among other places), even the documents it was obligated to return by the peace treaty signed in 1660. On the other hand, thanks to being kept in Swedish museums, archives and libraries, all this stuff was safe from being taken or destroyed by the Germans or Russians. Ironically, among the cultural heritage lost during WW2 were objects recovered from Russia in 1921. In hindsight, the failure of similar restitution from Sweden, postulated in the inter-war period, was very lucky. Meanwhile, there is priceless African art in museums even here in Poland. Specifically the Faras Gallery in the National Museum in Warsaw, presenting the treasures of a Nubian cathedral. It is not an effect of the colonial plunder though, but the UNESCO's campaign to save the artifacts endangered by the creation of the Aswan Dam in 1960. Polish archeologists took significant part in it. Their findings were shared between Warsaw and Khartoum, but I suspect that it would be handled differently today.

Well, people seem to think that only Europeans colonised. No talk of Arab colonisation of middle east and North Africa, not colonisation of Ottoman empire. Nor Mongols into Russia.....etc etc.

@AlejandroFlores-vi8tl

2 жыл бұрын

I had no idea the Crown Jewels are in the Turkish National Museum, shut the fuck up with your whataboutism nonsense

Isn't the conquering of african countries and the relocation of artifacts part of an objects history?

@Hipstorian

4 жыл бұрын

One could argue that it is certainly a -part- of its history. But depending on the age of the object (some of which are pretty old), it's but a fraction of its entire history. Even so, I can see how arguments can be made for it even in that regard!

@patricktheil8844

4 жыл бұрын

​@@Hipstorian Definitely it's by far not the most important thing about these objects. Some part of me wants to give it back to them, but the other, and probably more selfish part, thinks that if one culture counquered another the spoils of war are kinda deserved as a piece of the winnig sides history . I mean the age of colonization itself is already history. If we would give it back to the civization that inhabits the place of the former owner, who says the rightful inherit would get it and not just the culture that survived there till now. If anyone understands what I mean... Anyway love your videos and thanks for one about such a "conroversial" topic.

@Hipstorian

4 жыл бұрын

@@patricktheil8844 Oh, I totally understand your point! Just look at some historical objects or relics that have been in their new location for so long that no one even bats an eye at it any more and it has even become part of the scenery there. Objects like the Portrait of the Four Tetrarchs in Venice or the Serpent Column in Istanbul have been a part of their location for so long now that people could never imagine "repatriating" them back to Istanbul or Delphi respectively. The story about how they got there in and of itself have become a part of their overall history, so there is definitely something to be said about your point.

Trying out a bit of a new format with a more "editorial"-like video this time. As mentioned in the description (it tends to get overlooked sometimes), I don't mean to propose that one side holds better arguments than the other or that one of them is more in the right. As should hopefully be made clear in the video, this is a very delicate subject with only losers in the end. There's a small bit of subjectivity at the end, but I hope to let you form your own opinion on the matter when all is said and done. So feel free to chime in here and let me know what you guys think!

@fluffybunny5518

2 жыл бұрын

Relevant Feedback: I admire your guts to touch this hot potato as objectively as possible. The editorial video style is good. Also the jokes and pop-culture media references are well-paced to keep your audience’s attention. Important Feedback: How dare you have doge censor a perfectly nice pair of *beeps*.

A manner of doing things in Canada that I've seen in some institutions (local native artifacts in collections were either taken/stolen, bought, given as gifts...) is to contact the community it originates from (provided they have that info, if not, research has to be undertaken) and 1-let them know the item exists, 2-establish a relationship with said community 3-if the item was not given or sold through proper channels (that's another negotiation entirely), what steps can be taken to either send it back or have a "shared custody" of the object, if the community doesn't have the capacity to preserve it but still want to claim a cultural ownership... Another point to consider is the function of the object in the culture of origin (some objects have a symbolic role that implies their ritual destruction...) and how it computes with an intention of preservation.

*People certainly were aware of the significance of the cultural and historical objects returning to their respective country of origin as long as they were western European objects. As for the concept of "universal museum". Pardon my French but it's bullshit. It's preposterous that a person from number of African countries, and some eastern and southern European too, has to be able to afford a trip to the UK in order to see the artifacts of their cultural ancestry. They should at least fund scholarship in order to allow those people come and see, out of sheer decency. And I know it's not just problem with the British, as a Pole I am well aware about a number of Polish cultural artifacts robbed by the Swedes during the invasion of 1655 or by Germans and the Soviets during the World War II. But I believe that the British museums are by far the most egregious cases of displaying stolen property.

I know this is a controversial opinion but I don't think they should be returned. I care more about preserving artifacts and history than about being "fair" or making up past offenses, and the truth is that western countries have much more resources to ensure that. This is also true for impoverished/potentially unstable countries like Egypt. While it's stable now, we never know what might happen. Syria is a perfect example of that - it was doing relatively well less than a decade ago and now we've had ISIS blowing up priceless historical relicts. That can't be allowed to happen. Great video Hipstorian! I miss your pixel videos but this content is great so I guess I'll survive it ;)

@Hipstorian

4 жыл бұрын

All fair points! There may be far more important things at stake in those countries than relics of the past (let's say, millions of lives), but it does break my heart every single time I see or hear something about defaced or destroyed relics. There is something to be said about history being a part of all of us, collectively, as humankind. So then one could argue it doesn't matter where objects are located so long as they are safe and well preserved (which is, admittedly, in a museum where they have the know-how and experience to care for them). Though I do risk simplifying some things with that, as the discussion is definitely a delicate one. Especially when it comes down to countries that are (relatively) safe. Thanks as always, Barris! As for Pixel History videos though, you're in luck! My next one for Women's Month will be a good, old Pixel History video again! That is, if I manage to finish it in time.

@ThisisBarris

4 жыл бұрын

Hipstorian I really like the collective point of history! I agree. What matters is that it’s safe.

@dragonborn3609

4 жыл бұрын

I know there was a case where the fascist Italy took an Ethiopian national monument. Pretty much if it was taken to demoralize the people and not to memorialize the history of it then it should be given back.

My opinion is to let the objects stay where they are. Slow steady change is preferable the objects in question are a part of everyone's history now however how they are presented and related contexts definitely could use updating

Yes

Offloading such priceless artifacts, which are testaments to human history and culture, into their nations of origin, most of which are unstable, unsafe, or incredibly poor (thus unable to house them properly), is a disservice to the academic community and to mankind. They should stay in developed nations where they are secure and beneficial to research.

@franzjoseph1837

4 жыл бұрын

Bruh you guys need to do away with that colonialist mentality it's not European artifacts it should be given back to their nations of origin many artifacts are destroyed throughout history its life write a book about it make a sketch and move on. The idea that they must be safeguarded in some foreign country is only a argument western museums make so they can still make money in their African, Asian etc sections

@ch33zyburrito36

3 жыл бұрын

@@franzjoseph1837 Has nothing to do with colonialism. It’s all about history. Their are various relics of differing nations all over the world; we all share a piece of our own human history the same way we share cultures when entering another country. If a country wants what’s theirs back then that’s understandable. So then why do you argue that it’s just an artifact that can be so easily tossed away? Your arguing with a victimized standpoint, that’s why.

@MrBropocalypse

3 жыл бұрын

@@ch33zyburrito36 "lol don't be such a victim" is not a proper response to any part of what he said.

@ch33zyburrito36

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrBropocalypse which is why my comment is way longer than that lol

@tubeguy4066

3 жыл бұрын

@@franzjoseph1837 so you would rather have artifacts be destroyed than have them be kept safe guarded somewhere else? What's wrong with you?

The problem with repatriating is that it can, more often than not, lean towards nationalism, in my opinion. And let's not forget the destruction of ancient artifacts caused by ISIS.

the parnetheon marbles are probably the most famous* being held in the british museum and acropolis museum has a empty space for them*... a compromise would be * the originals staying in the british museum and or vice a versa* recrated ones in the acropolis museum...., the former king and ioc* olympian king constantine of the hellenes suggests this as a comprimise.... the mayor of athens, partiach of the greek orthdox church, president of the greek republic and others, all have different opinions on the return of the marbles...,commonly called *elgin marbles only in the UK* the british museum would argue, once the parnetheon marbles return* then all artifacts need to return, so a empty museum or subject to a international court regulation..., and no visitors or tourists, same would go for the berlin pergamon or any other museum,,, since de colonialisation* we should mention all artifacts history, however controversial and without predujice to owners or claims etc...

I would argue that housing historical artifacts of a country that don't have significant cultural value would be counterproductive to the learning of people around the globe. We should share our historical pieces with other nations so that we can all learn about the history of eachother instead of just our own. I would suggest that european museums outsource some of their own artifacts to other nations so that we can facilitate cultural exchange and not cultural xenophobia.

The strongest argument against repatriation, it seems to me, is to declare the museums themselves a part of the cultural landscape and heritage of the country in which the museum exists. Anyone who's been to Museum Island can easily attest to the truth if this. Of course the counter argument is that these museums can be filled with replicas while the originals can be repatriated.

@t.wcharles2171

3 жыл бұрын

but a museum loses it's historical value if you fill it with replicas because no one wants to see a replica unless it made of wax and looks vaguely human

@aymanhasan-2991

Жыл бұрын

If this is the strongest argument then LOL

@willfakaroni5808

11 ай бұрын

@@t.wcharles2171well all dinosaur skeletons in museums are just replicas and there very popular

It's difficult, in a sense so many artifacts have been with western museums for so long that you could say the ownership has somewhat shifted. Either way I think that besides being owned by a collective culture such as Egyptian or Greek these artifacts are owned by humanity collectively, because they in a sense together tell our whole history. It also has helped us understand other cultures and their history.

@StCharlos

Жыл бұрын

That sense you are saying equals stealing something from someone for a while (not even that long compared to the time period between the artefacts were made and the point you STOLE, than the ownership would shift to yours. That’s bullshit and makes NO SENSE

@zeroattitude4162

Жыл бұрын

@@StCharlos This is actually how ownership works in most countries, so it's not all too weird. It's how ownership of land has worked for a long time as well, the US used to be 13 states and all on the east coast. Texas used to be part of mexico, now it's not anymore and enough time has passed for ownership of Texas not being a discussion anymore. This is not to say that I whole-heartedly agree with the degree to which artifacts were taken from places and are still held by western nations. Especially in museums where most of these artifacts that are precious to certain cultures aren't even shown but instead are held in storage. A perfect middle road is returning ownedship in exchange for an exchange program that allows museums to still display a degree of cultural artifacts from other places.

They must belong to the world. Where they are located should be irrelevant as long as they are maintained and protected.

@ngn6708

3 жыл бұрын

Just return them to there homelands it makes no sense not to. It’s like a great grandson sees a a picture of his great grandfather in the hands of the family who robbed it from him and he ask for it back but since the family became interested by it they refuse

These artifacts can be used to teach people about other civilisations from all over the world

@isaacmzt5232

3 жыл бұрын

Then people wanting to learn about priceless artifacts from a certain culture, should travel to to the country where that priceless object is from! The value a looted country holds for its stolen historical objects, Is beyond the understanding of the colonizing nation to this day. Theres other values of greater importance, affects honor, pride of a nation, not just historical or economical, its cultural heritage that defines a whole country. But hey, i know that for many people commenting on here, its IMPOSSIBLE to put themselves in our shoes.. Right?

@roberta123465

3 жыл бұрын

@@isaacmzt5232 So the honour and pride of a nation strongly depends on some artifact in Europe or NA? I think that’s bullshit. They should get their artifacts back if they can ensure they will maintain it properly. If they can’t, it belongs where it will be safe so people can acknowledge its historical/cultural importance. Maybe even a trade between the two parties can ensure both are satisfied.

Say you find a statue of Buddha in say Afghanistan and the Taliban ask for it?

"This objects belong to all humanity, not a particular culture" And europe is the represents all of humanity? Ok, whitey. "This objects are safe in the museums" If safety is your main concern 1) Do not remove the objects from their original place and context. 2) Give money to keep them _there_ . I think that creating high paying jobs in Africa, Asia, and South America would be hella nice. "This objects were in the museum so long that the ownership has shifter" 1) In many cases, the objects were in their original placer _for millenia_ . No european country lasted that long. Isnt France in like, its 5th republic? 2) If I keep a stolen object for long enough, it becomes mine.

@ch33zyburrito36

3 жыл бұрын

Europe doesn’t represent all of humanity, but why stop there? What about Chinese museums, US museums, Central/South American museums? There are museums all over the world, generalizing them to be European is silly and equally as wrong as generalizing the societies from which they collected their artifacts. Your 2 main points make zero sense... 1. Yeah, let’s just go back in time and stop the artifacts from ever being taken... lol. Safety is the main concern, hence bringing them to a safe country far from those who would destroy or neglect the artifacts. If you’re referring to the actual relocating process being inherently dangerous, then I’m sure they wouldn’t be tampered with in the first place. 2. This is completely idealistic. There is no way to pay for something hundreds/thousands of years old as the original creators are long gone and the current population have little if anything to do with its creation. And most of all, why pay someone else for it if you’re the one maintaining it 😂 Tl;dr The objects in most museums are right where they need to be. They are protected, studied, and most of all valued (which is something the original owners likely didn’t care to do). These artifacts are the sum of human history, we shouldn’t be held accountable for the actions of people centuries ago who were just products for their time anyway. Done

If you ask me, the problem is deeper than artifacts, which are only a manifestation of greater issues. Though i will say this: if youre using the argument that the object should not be returned to its country of origin for the reason that ‘academic work can’t therefore be done on it’ - id ask what you think academics should be doing. It’s frankly ridiculous that people can be ‘experts’ in, say, wollof studies without knowing a single expression in the wollof language. Africanist studies generally suffer from this issue, and i would counter that if youre an anthropologist or historian and cant go to a country to study things within that country... maybe you shouldnt be writing on that country for release in academic papers. If im studying italian history, id expect to have to go to italy for their archives. If im studying virginian history, the same logic applies. This is no different to me. Literally, people can keep replicas in their own museums. Solved.