Becoming "no one": I think that the point of learning to become "no one" is not to lose your personality forever, but to train you to set aside your personality in order to more fully take on the persona of the face you wear.

The way Arya explains how she feels the life and memory of the person’s skin she is wearing seems A LOT like what Dolores/Hale was feeling as an affect of being in a body that was not hers. Fascinating!

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

Don’t bring that West World BS to a discussion of ASOIF

@finnian_20

4 жыл бұрын

@@210SAi there is no reason to be hateful here

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

Finnian Ottinger it was a joke

@christophergibson9337

Жыл бұрын

I thoroughly enjoy all ASOIAF content and KZreadrs… but I was trying JTM out and multiple times he pushed his political views on the listening audience. Really prefer not to hear his ideas anymore. This is now place for that!

Death IS the Stranger! That's why they can't kill whom they know.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Also they are not suposed to kill out of own motives like revenge

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Interessting thought, it is less about the assasin knowing the victim than about the victim knowing the assasin ^^

@jordanford9320

2 ай бұрын

​@@arianewinter4266but then that goes back to their point they made about jaquen. He did kill out of his own selfish motives to keep himself alive. That's the same thing as killing someone for revenge. It's a motive if he truly was no one like they mentioned he would have just killed himself because that's who Arya named

I've always assumed that The Faceless Men fund the Iron Bank of Braavos. Without much evidence. They bring in lots of coin with their assassination contracts, but they spend very little on themselves. And The Iron Bank will get its due. Perhaps the Iron Bank sends Faceless Men to take out Deadbeat Debtors? In the books, Cersei refuses to pay what she owes to The Iron Bank. She may have earned a spot on their kill list. Perhaps the FM are happy to let Arya head back to Westeros, knowing that she intends to kill Cersei in revenge for Ned's beheading, because it coincides with their own aims. I think they're secretly very involved in politics. I also wonder how many apprentice assassins do they have to recruit to produce one fully trained, reliable assassin? Thanks Robert and Matt! Intriguing!

@whitneydavis5196

4 жыл бұрын

I think so too!

@tulkas42o22

4 жыл бұрын

Hey wheeezy 420! Definitely one whole entity disguised as two😉

@williamwhitfield6225

3 жыл бұрын

They are definitely tied together, i think the faceless men definitely had a part in starting the iron bank. The huge sum of Lannister gold that was given for their Valryian steel sword. Was likely the massive deposit to the iron bank that lead to them becoming the power they are in Bravos. Did whoever hire the faceless men to cause the doom in Valryia deposit it there? Or did the Faceless men make the deposit after their payment?

@clear_gray_sky539

3 жыл бұрын

A Lannister always pays their debts

I like how Joe Magician just sneaks in.... nice element of surprise. Perhaps he is a faceless man?! Two of my favorite content creators at once covering one of my favorite topics.

Song of ice and fire=yin and yang=balance Faceless men are death and use Arya Littlefinger is chaos and uses Sansa Three Eye Crow is ice and using Bran. I think the eternal conflict of R’hllor vs the great other is another nod to lovecraft. It’s R’hllor vs Nyarlathotep playing a game of thrones using the characters as pieces. Not that they will ever show up literally on the pages but I think this is what’s happening.

Finally! My favorite group bring dissected

@Niall001

4 жыл бұрын

Said George.

He brings up a really good point about the class structure and how the faceless men are viewed. If you think about Syrio and his test for becoming first sword, their is clearly an element of being able to see through deception and protect from the faceless men.

Ah, 2 handsome boys talkin' ASOIAF, what could be better? It's been so long since reading that section of the books that I had forgotten how much more enticing it was than what we saw on the show. Thanks for taking me back!

Jaqhen is basically to the facelessman as the doctor is to the timelords. He is the most well known and the most efficient and in time the most revered, but ultimately quiet atypical.

@SkulkingSkullKid

4 жыл бұрын

M.G.94 Nice. I'll take any Doctor Who reference. This also just makes sense.

I've always been fascinated by the faceless men. I am sooo ready for this!!! Thanks Robert!!

What if the money the Faceless men obtain for their killings goes into the Iron bank? And that's how the bank has so much money? Otherwise, what exactly do the Faceless men use or even need money for?

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

Retirement

@NickMead04

Жыл бұрын

I think that it's used to feed the poor/homeless in braavos

Great vid IDG , loving this "Secrets" series. Excellent discussion Robert & Matt , the Faceless Men are certainly a fascinating and somewhat mysterious element in the narrative. Definitely agree with Matt's latest vids on the FM & their iron coins , being that unchanging tangible identifier symbol that is needed in an org where identities and appearances are in a constant state of flux. Definitely believe the Kindly man's claims that the FM executed the Doom , just makes sense on so many levels they were hired to carry it out and likely did so by assassinating the Fire-mages who were controlling the Fourteen Flames. And for me the part that is often left out in the Doom theories is the likely involvement of Braavos , the maesters could have played a part taking out a magical powerful empire who did not fit into their worldview and could be viewed as a preemptive strike to a possible westward expansion from the Freehold , the Targs possibly as well who benefited massively from the Doom and could have facilitated the Brightroar sale ; but Braavos (the Iron Bank and Braavosi top brass) who were emerging as global power players in the literal and figurative fog away from the Valyrians' gaze who needed to eliminate the Freehold to continue their global expansion , make sure the Valyrians did not impede or conquer them and for added incentive it helps they hated the Valyrians' heinous practices (slavery especially) being escaped slaves of the Freehold themselves. Just all fits together for me and Braavos seems to have the most incentive out of any Planetos entity with the Doom imo to at least have been somewhat involved, the FM being headquartered in Braavos also fits in nicely , along with the fact with the IB and top Braavosi had ample means and motivation as well. In terms of the FM's higher aspirations and their grander schemes that is a bit trickier , i think they mostly stick to their m.o. of assassinations for huge sums of money , mercy killings, carrying out the plans of other entities and general bringers of death. I do agree as brought up by Joe / Matt they seem to also be a check on huge powerful empires & regimes (likely for self preservation) and as Robert mentioned would not tolerate necromancy / perverting the natural course of death be it via the Others / their wights , Qyburn or any type of unnaturally long life (via magic) or magical resurrections etc. In those cases they may have their own aspirations to act on but outside of that I think they are mainly a vehicle for the goals of other entities that sometimes may match up nicely with their own desires like getting one back on the Valyrian slavers where the FM emerged out of (with the Doom example) or looking into taking out dragons etc which still seems to be at the behest of others for me . The Iron Bank for example could be weighing up taking out the dragons if needed in the current narrative for their own interests. As for Arya , definitely seems her skin-changing ability (which the FM seem aware of) and possibly being high-born could be coveted by the FM to facilitate whatever they are up to in Westeros be it of their own will or hired by outside entities to execute. I do think Arya is on her way out of the org , it seems she feels she does not fit in or want to fit in as the FM would like , she is unable to shed her own desires / endgame motivations and could be on the run imminently in the narrative. Although this could all be part of the FM plan to train her up just enough to do what is needed and let her return home with the illusion that she escaped them but is actually fulfilling the FM's plans (likely unknowingly) with them most likely keeping eyes on her. Also mainly through Arya's eyes and arc it does appear there are many levels with the FM techniques , from a simple makeup and playing a character , to contorting their facial muscles , to wearing the faces themselves (which seems to have a much more magical component in the books) and even down to magical glamor appearance changing abilities of seemingly a few elite members. Definitely look forward to see the FM's role in the remaining part of the narrative and any further revelations with the FM in general in the concluding ASoIaF books as well as any companion books , histories or Planetos based novels & novellas.

@tulkas42o22

4 жыл бұрын

Hey there mate👋 well stated. I lately have been curious about clown origins. Kind of like a glamour like the FM but they originally had an agenda of nefarious means but to them wholly righteous ala FM using their tools for profit but maintaining their agenda. I can entertain them letting Arya go to fulfill those complicated agenda. I think there is more than one. ✌

@AndrewK23777

4 жыл бұрын

@@tulkas42o22 hey mate , yeah their grander plans seem a bit tricky and harder to discern , given how much they charge for their services wealth and influence definitely appear to be part of it. And as mentioned during the vid I believe by Matt / Joe they seem to be keeping powerful regimes and empires in check , likely for self preservation due to the growth of those entities may eventually turn they attention to be rid of the FM. Also given they are death fanatics anything that subverts or prevents the natural order of death like wighting be it the Others , Qyburn etc , unnaturally prolonged life via magic (like Bloodraven), and resurrections etc they would likely not be okay with such practices and would likely take it upon themselves to intervene. Outside of that i think its hard to discern when they are acting of their own will or on behalf of they are entity that hire them. Overall outside of the criteria mentioned for them to take it upon themselves to act , personally i feel like we seem them mainly acquiring huge wealth and working on behalf of others much more often. In terms of accepting money seems for the right price they will basically do anything which is what we see from them from the most part imo. Be it looking to be able to take out dragons if needed or the Doom etc ; occasionally what they are hired to do might match up nicely to their own aspirations but most often i think they are happy to accept huge sums of money to execute the plans and schemes of the entities who hire the FM.

@davidjones272

3 жыл бұрын

It's funny, but I read arya's skin changing as something the faceless men didn't understand or recognise. I think she effectively uses it to fool the kindly man, he thinks she is a prodigy who is making rapid progress (even more than she actually is). I think eventually she'll use it against them to break free.

@AndrewK23777

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidjones272 personally i think they have an idea with Arya's skin-changing abilities, believe it was written they noticed her having warging / wolf dreams which may have tipped them off and it is possible though i do not recall if it was actually indicated in the text but Jaqen possibly noticed something in her at Harrenhal. It could go either way , i do think she is on her way out of there , perhaps she could swarm / attack with some animals or something as a diversion or use them for spying to plan her escape idk. But personally i think the FM look for and covet special type of abilities as they would likely enhance their assassin capabilities. Jaqen was likely noticed for some type of magical predisposition as it seems he is able to use a sort of magical glamor that i doubt many of the FM members can execute. Personally i think they look for a variety of people with special abilities. If i had to bet i think the FM are aware of Arya's abilities as they seem very observant and generally well informed but we have to wait to read more to find out in the next book.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Littlefinger knows the price the Faceless Men. Though the idea of the FMs as practising a crude form of Communism had not occurred to me!

Thats a really good point towards the end. How the cost on the employer to the assasin is detrimental to the employer, very uniquely faceless man.

Part of me suspects that the Faceless Men CAN kill people they know BUT they must lie so well that none of the others will notice. Arya and the Waif playing the lying game constantly makes me suspect that even the best of them still have a "tell" that can creep up if one knows how to look for it. If they can successfully fool their peers, then they can accept a contract on someone they know. The rule of not killing someone you know may be used to prevent the trainees/ acolytes from killing out of vengeance and for their own goals.

@archmage_of_the_aether

3 ай бұрын

Eh, probably show evidence is no evidence

I must say, I’ve watched a lot of ASOIAF material on YT, and these discussions are top notch 👌🏼

Great show guys! Thanks Robert for always bringing on the best folks. Good to see you & Matt geeking out on the Faceless Men. Cheers @in deep geek @joe magician 🍻

Loved this livestream! Thank you to you both!!!!

Great, great discussion! Really enjoyed this chat and the chemistry the tw of you have

YAY!!! Nice to see you back here again Matt! 💖

Importantly as to the relations between bravosi nobility and faceless men. The sea lord looked for Syrio specifically using the cat because ot likely had a glamour on it that he could see through. Many faceless men use glamours.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

I think that is the reason they wanted Arya, not everyone, no matter how trained, is able to actualy change their faces so they need to use glamour or disguise, but she as a powerful skinchanger, beeing able to warg over a great distance without even intending so, she actualy can and therefor is an extreamly valueable recource, through her you can't look!

What a great combination... you guys work really well together. Thankyou for the very interesting stream!

Love the channel, great content

Couldn’t the idea of Jaqen offering 3 lives for saving his just a benefit of saving the life of a FM? He wouldn’t be breaking a rule if Arya had earned a favor from a FM.

Such a great discussion👏👏👏👏👏 I have many questions but for the moment I'm very entertained! Great job lads👍

Love you both!

I never thought of the "becoming no one" thing as literally *forgetting* everything that had come before in your life, but rather "letting go of" - no longer letting it guide your actions and priorities in any way. So I don't have any trouble coalescing the "no one" and "can't kill people you know" things. In fact, avoiding contracts that were on people you'd known might be part of *preserving* the extent to which you'd successfully set aside your old life. If it was someone you'd cared about or admired, you might feel guilt. If it was someone you'd been enemies with, you might feel pleasure. Neither is compatible with "remaining no one."

I'd love to see you chat with Preston Jacobs sometime. I remember some interesting theories he discussed about genetics and Martin's other work that would be right up your alley. Love the vids btw.

@cameronjadewallace

3 жыл бұрын

I think this all the time!!! I adore Preston, and think their conversations would be amazing!

You two always go in deep when discussing ASOIAF. Love this topic.

Despite the notifications I keep forgetting these are on on a Wednesday night! Thanks again for variety and volume of content Robert! @indeepgeek

Excellent video as always! 😀. The Faceless Men storyline is one of my favorites within the whole Ice & Fire saga. One thought I have is are they really a “death” religion, in that they want everyone to die, or is it far more complex? Valor Morghulis seems to be a greeting among the peoples where high Valerian is the origin of their language. So, either it’s original meaning has been “lost” in translation, or it wasn’t meant as an actual motto of intent of the Faceless Men. After reading the passages of Arya and the kindly man’s discussion of their origin, I took the phrase and their intentions more as “since all men must eventually die, we will take on the responsibility to aid those who wish for it sooner rather than waiting for it’s natural course. Also, since they also take on hired contracts to bring the gift to those not seeking it, are they truly acting on behalf of the Many-faced-God or for their own benefits? To end my comments, has anyone mentioned how much you resemble Aidan Gillen?!? Thank you again for all of your amazing videos.

I love this ❤️ topic

This is such a wonderful follow up to Matt's Arya's coin video. Thanks

This really gets interesting at about the 40 minute mark. I actually enjoyed this; very nice. Thank you.

Awesome collab guys! Quinn and LmL now have competition! Haha it’s all love. Keep em up! For the nights are dark and full or corona!!!

Iron coin - Iron Bank - Bravos. The FM and the IB are connected af

@SkulkingSkullKid

4 жыл бұрын

Geaullie Or iron is just a commonly manufactured metal.

If Jaqen was hired to kill Ned, he now has a problem. They were paid for an assassination, but having met Arya Jaqen sees an opportunity to recover. She is warg, she is alone, she has killed. Perfect apprentice. Showing her that he can kill quickly & anonymously plants the seed. He can now move on to the Old Town assignment.

Very enjoyable discussion and great insights! The literal changing of skin reminds me of some vargs (werewolves) and skin-changers of Old Norse literature, where people also put on the skin of wolves to become werewolves - or other animals like bears. To get rid of the skin changing ability, the skin has to be burned.

Maybe they can't kill someone they know because the victim could more easily see through their glamors (glamours?), since they can recognize the real person underneath. Don't know if or how this factors in to the masks since they seem to be on a whole other level. This could also explain why jaqen does not abide to the rules, because being found out as a faceless man is more of a risk than him being recognized by his targets. So avoid familiar people if possible but in dire situations all bets are off.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Also, for many cant change their face and only use a Glamour people might see through, nur for me the main reason is that they should not kill out of an own desire like revenge and you only would want to kill someone you know

@maltormash1048

4 жыл бұрын

Or maybe the rule just applies to Bravosi, leaving Jaqen free to kill whoever required in Westeros .

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

@@maltormash1048 but Arya vor Shit for killing Westerosi she fehlt a grudge against

Great video fellas!!! I do have one caveat, you said Jaqen was breaking the rule of not killing people you know. I think it means they can’t kill people who actually know them, as their true selves. The guards and people at Harrenhal, don’t really know the true Jaqen. They know the face and facade he was portraying not the true Jaqen.

Maybe the original faceless man was a slave of one of the fire mages, or even a fire mage himself. A lot of interesting stories can be told with that theory. Perhaps to hold back the volcanos, the fire mages would have to go into these mines. Maybe the mines served as part of the way they held back the volcanos. It would be a better explanation of how they tossed away their slave's lives then "we had a lot of them". The excuse of "breeding them in times of peace" is silly. It takes a lot to "breed" then birth and raise a human. But the expenses of the lost slaves would be worth it to help hold back the volcanos. It would even drive the war effort. Run out of slaves, and they all die. It could also explain why the Targaryens didn't go around enslaving people. There's no need for them in Westeros. Maybe that was part of their motivation for setting up outside of Valyria. Maybe they hated the practice. There is definitely a full and interesting story that can be told with this theory. It came to me partway through this stream. Back to watching now.

In Deep!

The Targarians took the Lannister gold and paid The Faceless Men to cause The Doom. the Targs were then left as the ONLY dragon owners. There is a great LML video on this subject.

37:32 A good theory for jaquen is he could be a foreshadow of what arya becomes. We've seen it before with other characters at different points in history. They are like so and so. So jaquen could be a glimpse of what arya might turn into using the gifts of the faceless man but also keeping yourself. That's always been my take

Wonderful stream! Does anyone think there could be something analagous between the origins of the first faceless man and what is happening in the bowels of Euron's ship?

Interesting idea that anyone could be a Faceless Man. Any contenders out there in any of the smaller characters? Any other people out there affecting change in some of our main characters? Whatdo you think of the theory that Rorge and/or Biter are Faceless Men? Also, this might not be the proper video to ask, but what do you think the Ghost of High Heart saw in Arya? How much death will she bring upon the world?

Regarding Pate researching dragons: what I'd read (and it makes a lot of sense) is that he's researching how to kill dragons, not because of anything to do with Dany or Valyrians, but because the return of dragons is tied to the return of magic, and therefore tied to all the people who are not dying when they should be. So to stop magic, they need to kill all the dragons (basically the same reason the maesters possibly wanted the dragons dead). On a separate note: I don't think the Faceless Men's belief that "All men must die" necessarily means, "all men must die RIGHT NOW." So I don't necessarily think they'd be either for or against either Arya or Euron killing just for killing's sake. The belief of the Faceless Men strikes me as less, "all men must die right now," and more, "when your time has come, it's come." So while I agree that they'd definitely be against people coming back to life... in terms of their religion, when it comes to _when_ a person dies, I don't think they care. If they're not being paid, they have no reason to care whether most people die of natural causes at the age of 90 or they're murdered at the age of 1 -- as long as their life ends in death at some point, the Many-Faced God is being served. That's why Jaqen's introduction to Arya was basically, "you robbed the Many-faced God when you saved the three of us, so I must kill three people to restore the balance. You choose the three." Regarding Arya... I have a pet theory, that one of the (at the very least, literary) reasons that Arya's learning that "death is a gift," is that there will come a time when she will have to give her mother that gift. Lady Stoneheart is the embodiment of why death is a gift. She's a very tragic figure -- a zombie that embodies only the worst qualities of Cat, and everything that was good about Cat is gone forever, which is far more tragic than if she'd simply died at the Red Wedding... and Lady Stoneheart is largely Arya's fault, because Nymeria was the one who dragged Cat out of the river.

Why was Jaqen in the Dungeons of Kings Landing? Do you think his goal was to Join the nights watch to kill someone there

@TheKjtheDj

4 жыл бұрын

He was supposed to kill Ned, the caravan that Arya was on was supposed to be the caravan that Ned was taking to the wall

@michaellockhart6176

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe to kill Ned?>

@michaellockhart6176

4 жыл бұрын

Oops - shoud have read your reply first Kenny (he wasn't there to kill Kenny : )

@jonhauge-evaldsson783

4 жыл бұрын

Who paid him?

@michaellockhart6176

4 жыл бұрын

@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 littlepenis... uh, finger?

Awesome discussion ^_^ I disagree/can offer an alternate opinion on a couple of the points. Arya*: Jaqen gave her the coin to become his apprentice/a Faceless Man, because he had already seen her assuming another identity: Arry. He knew that she already the ability to assume other identities, with the resources at her disposal, and that with further training in their order, she would become a useful asset. With regards why he killed the people she specified despite personal knowledge of them, I would suggest, is because he felt that he personally owed Arya three kills (not just one, as in his own life, but of the others as well). That might have meant that the usual guidelines about knowing the target may have been flexible under those circumstances. Qyburn: I don't think he was planning on a zombie army at all, and find the suggestion a ludicrous personal theory, bordering on insulting to what has been shown (in both books and TV series) due to the leaps which it makes and assumes. He needed more people because he needed people to study them, because his was a study of life and death. He learned so he could know what there was to know, and thus be of best service. Qyburn is an amoral character, neither good nor evil. His experiments were not done out of malice or sadism, but to increase his knowledge of illness and disease, which he could then use in the service of others. He didn't treat Ser Jaime's stump to ingratiate himself with the Lannisters, he did so because he was ordered to treat him. He didn't begin work on Tywin's corpse to ingratiate himself with Cersei, but because he was the first person on the scene Who Could Help. His transformation of Gregor Clegane, I would attribute to nothing more than an irresistable opportunity to conduct such an experiment, and to put what he had learned to practical use. *Arya: According to the pronunciation guide, her name is pronounced 'Are-Yuh', not 'Are-Ee-uh'. That the actors in the show who continually said "Aria" rather than "Arya" was nothing more than a combination of poor acting, and poor direction: They should have known how to pronounce the name as intended, and the director should have corrected them accordingly.

Excellent! I love that y'all mentioned the FM want to kill the undead. I really think this supports the Arya will kill Lady Stoneheart theory. Arya is known to kill people she knows in the Mercy chapter too.

The FM are helping Euron Greyjoy so they can be close to him for later on. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

I had a very different take on the Iron Coin. I don't like the idea that this is some kind of "Badge of Office" that the Faceless Men use to compel cooperation and assistance from Braavosi citizens. That makes them sound more like the FBI than a cult of assassins. I think that he Faceless Men carry them to hand out to potential recruits that they may encounter anywhere in the world. The Braavosi captain accepted it from Arya as payment because he knew that the coin was redeemable for a substantial amount of money at the House of Black and White. The iron coin is as good as a money order or a cashier's check. And the crew treated Arya with dread and reverence because they knew that she was a PROSPECTIVE Faceless Man, not an initiate in that order. As for why the Faceless Men charge so much for their services, I think that it isn't about paying for the rendering of a service. It is about making a SACRIFICE to the Many Faced God in order to gain his favor. When the Kindly Man tells Arya about the first Faceless Man, he seems to say that the first real assassination contract was bought with the sacrifice of the "Customer's" own life. You do not contract a Faceless Man to move a competitor out of the way so that you can improve your own wealth and position. You do it because you want that person dead so badly that you are willing to ruin yourself to make it happen. You are not making a payment. You are making a SACRIFICE. Melisandre makes a similar point when discussing sacrifices to the Red God. If a man with 1,000 cows sacrifices ten, is he really losing that much? But the man who sacrifices his ONLY cow, he is making a TRUE sacrifice. So, I would put forward that the price of the contract is not scaled to the value of the target, but to the available assets of the CUSTOMER. They might charge a great Lord half of his land and a peasant his only cow for the same contract. THIS could be why the mightly on Braavos truly fear the Faceless Men and are careful not to trample ok the poor. Because even the poorest man still has his life to offer, if you do him an injustice so great that he wants you dead more than he wants to be alive. The Faceless Men offer the weakest and most vulnerable the means to strike back at the wealthiest and most powerful that could otherwise ride Roughshod over them. Maybe, just as "Only Death can pay for Life," perhapse "Only Life can pay for Death."

@SkulkingSkullKid

4 жыл бұрын

Occam Therazor Yes! Exactly.

Very cool. Have a good one. Peace :)

I love these, but I would love them so much more if you put visuals to them like you do with your non-live videos.

whoa. has it come up that maybe J'aquen only has ONE coin? Like maybe that's why he doesn't go back to braavos? He gave Arya his place? maybe he's not on an official mission in Old Town, maybe he's gone rogue!

@WarrenEBB

4 жыл бұрын

maybe it's even a form of revenge. to induct her into the faceless men, in his place. since she named him as the 3rd death in Harrenhal.

Hi in deep geek i hope you're doing well my friend

I predict the destruction of Braavos. There are a lot of hints that Braavos will be destroyed, one of them is how it's too big for its own britches, and so parts of it are sinking under the weight of its buildings. It has a lot of Atlantis symbolism. And also the Sea Lord of Braavos has been quite active in the story, being a witness to Viserys's and Arianne's marriage agreement.

a lot of people forget about syrio and what we say to the many faced God and how that might figure in to her final head space

@indeepgeek robert i need to know what video on littlefinger did you discuss how he might have worked with the faceless men

Awesome! Thought this was 16 minutes not one hour 6😍

What is the relationship between the children and the faceless men? Seems like they both spend a lot of time underground. Both like killing men. Both are magic/telepathic. The house of black and white has a Weirwood door.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Well the real facechanging is based on the magic of a skinchanger as seen in Arya beeing able to do it while many only use a glamour

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

They believe that the children are the future Teach them well and let lead the way

The Tleilaxu face dancers of Planetos. :)

7:30 Easiest way for the Targaryians to get a prophesy of the Doom of Valyria and know to get out of town is to have actually paid for it to happen. Wouldn't explain why they headed to Dragonstone, but I guess you have to go somewhere. Although the Targaryians were of a reportedly noble house, it isn't said that they brought over any great wealth besides themselves and what they wore. No extended family members, no ships, no armies, etc. That would align with having spent it all to kill other Valyrians.

The Order of the Green Hand did a pretty solid video on Jaqen where they point out line by line how Jaqen ignores absolutely every rule the Kindly Man teaches Arya. Could be the "bloat" problem, but it seems the rules are given to Arya in the exact order he breaks them. They're a bit tin foily at times, but I personaly think they might be onto something with there being something special about Jaqen.

There's actually a really big paradox : if you are No One, how can you know someone? The fact that knowing someone prevents you from killing them breaks the idea of losing your identity.

Is Syrio Jaken? Did i miss that part of the conversation?

I think you overlooked an important fact when Hagar removed his 'face' in front of Arya. He would berevealing his true face. Thrre is no way ge could wear 2 faces if the dead person's memories were attached.

i feel like u guys could have made a really good Bolt-on theory allusion if u had wanted to if u hadn't heard of it... look it up it actually really makes some sense

Whoohoo!

The process of becoming no one is identity breaking indoctrination. It happens to every cult member when they join a cult. The process breaks down the persons identity and sense of individuality. The cult then build the person into the image of the cult. In Heavens Gate for example members are built into androgynous people with no physical characteristic of gender identity or individuality. They all wore the similar clothes and had the same haircut. The faceless men had a hard time doing this to Arya because she has a strong sense of self and self worth. She still has this sense of herself when she is isolated from her family and friends.

Just my thoughts random thought.. How insane I m if I say that maybe those slaves in valyria mines were brought back to life after death to be killed again and again as slave miners. Then some random dude thought that it has to stop and gave them real death? Don't shoot me for thinking too much crazy

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Actualy that makes sense so the idea of everyone has to die/death has to be permanent would be ingrained into there believe. With what is going on now, it would make sense, but something would have needed to been back in the past to mirror that

I would assume that if the faceless men are researching dragons, they've probably either been hired to kill Daenerys or her dragons, or they expect they might be hired to kill her or her dragons in the future.

In the beginning, the faceless men were an assisted suicide group. They evolved into assassinations for hire.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

Well they kill where the will for death is there, first the slaves just wanted to die, when they came across the wish for the slavers to die instead, they started to kill those

Faceless Men effectively combine the Assassin's Guild trope with an anti-necromancy guild. If you can have healers who keep people alive and necromancers who bring people back to life, then why not have killers who make people dead and stop immortality? While not everyone, there is plenty of stories of people being kept alive by magic such as the slaves of Valyria and the Others. Even the God of Light R'hllor is at its base just a necromantic diety who brings people back to life.

A former leader of the Communist Party of Greece was once asked if she were a "good communist" as in "does she live by her ideals". She answered, "No, but I try every day to be one". In many ways, the Communist Party (ironically) functions like a religion. I suspect it's very much the same for the religion of the faceless men. They have ideals they aspire to set down in the rules, but on a human level they know perfect adherence is impossible. Just like pretty much every major religion makes some allowance for the fallibility of man.

A death cult dragon would be awesome!!!!

Great vid guys Thank's!!! I've started rewatching the show, and when Arya is escorted outside to join the group headed to the Wall & she passes by the crated wagon he looks Completely different! How did he get out of the Black cells with his faces? Just curious. Also, let me get this straight.. the little girl who gets beat to death from her dad was actually a faceless man?!? How else would they get her face? Bizarre

Where does the idea of 'a life for a life' fit into the idea of paying for assassinations? I'm thinking of the deaths Jacqen? owed Arya after she killed to protect him. I think there is an idea of the need for balance in life and death. Perhaps, the balance is out of whack.

Mabe jaqen took the face off in front of arya? And maybe the hook nose scare face is his real face.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

I highly doubt that he uses that face in another job, he would not walk around in his own face . . . Even in the show jaquen could be several people

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

Serena Odonata notice you never see Jaqen and Hot Pie in he same place at the same time

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

@@210SAi Not what I ment, one time we See Jaquen and another, they might be different faceless men. The one who traines her might be another while the one who have her the coin is in another job

Knowing that the Faceless Men experience the (last) emotions of the person whose face they use immediately after applying the face gives extra meaning to the candles they offer to the people who come to their temple. Could it be that faces that have pleasant memories are also easier to wear? I suppose a Faceless Man can better focus on the job when their thoughts aren't disturbed by bad emotions and memories, not to mention the negative effect this is likely to have on one's sanity.

Late comment here, but I've a vague theory about the origins of the Faceless Men and their relationship to the Doom of Valyria that might support your theory, and even have it make more sense. In this world, it might be that undeath / reanimated dead are things that frequently happen whenever, or wherever, there is heavy use (abuse?) of magic. I wonder if perhaps the slaves in old Valyria were prone to being reanimated, like stone men, and controlled like The Mountain. So, maybe, being worked to death in the mines could not even be expected to be the end of the slaves' toil. If the Faceless Men discovered a way to kindly bring slaves the Faceless God's "gift" when they were being abused as an undead labor force, that would make their original mission feel more empathetic. There was a clear and urgent need they would have been addressing. My theory might also back up your idea that the Faceless Men's mission would put them in conflict with the creators/causes of all of these undead popping up everywhere. They might see these as problems that are squarely in their "jurisdiction." I expect extraordinary plot reveals about the Faceless Men, with a subcomponent being the intentional loosing of Arya upon Westeros. On a side note, I wonder if that is informing the etymology of the "Undying?" Another ancient, escaped slave cohort?

Does the merging happen because Arya is a warg. Or is it at least more intense?

I know this video is a year old but Jaquen was already on his mission before Danaerys's dragons were even born. So it can't be for killing Dany's dragons unless they somewhat know the future. So there's no telling why they are wanting that book. Maybe it has something to do with the others. Maybe they're also blood of Dragon and maybe it's not meant to kill actual Dragons but the others if in fact they do turn out to be of dragon blood maybe from the Great Empire of the Dawn. I can't wait to find out how it all plays out.

The original faceless man made no sense to me until you said that the slaves/faceless men caused the doom.

bookmark 41:00

I feel like The Faceless Men is one plot thread which we probably won't get very many answers about. If that's true, it's a damn shame.

@cyanide_lollipop3264

4 жыл бұрын

I really, really hope you're wrong. Fingers crossed we'll get more out of them.

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

The only way the plot thread is left unanswered is if the books never are completed. It would be insanely poor writing to leave a dangling plot thread like the FM.

@cyanide_lollipop3264

4 жыл бұрын

@@210SAi I've been worried for awhile that the books won't be finished. At the rate he's writing WoW, he'll be like 109 when he finishes a Dream of Spring! lol

Hey !

I daubt they would want to hatch the dragonegg for themself, I reather believe if they have it, no one else can hatch it! That would be a great motivation to acept it as payment

Just a though, but would be Dany count on the the supposed to be dead list? She aint fireproof, that was a onetime magical thing that possible made her believe she was, would have loved the irony if she later died in flames . . . No she should be dead but saved herself due to traiding her life for the witches.. . . So does she count as living or supposed to be dead?

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

Even if she was I think she’s got protection in the form of her Dragons and Quaithe.

@arianewinter4266

4 жыл бұрын

@@210SAi nah, I ment it less in in a hit list as in the sense of a Spiritual scale. If all who where supposed to be dead but got brought back needed to die to reinstall balance and order in the world, would she count? I would think actualy not, at least not because of that or else anyone who came close to dieing would . . . More If to beat ice Fire would need to go to, but I found it interessting what Others might think of it

What is dead may never die

@covenawhite4855

3 жыл бұрын

What is Dead shall Eternal Lie. And Someday even Death will Die. H.P. Lovecraft.

. . . A lot gruesome cutting their faces of .. . And than there are childrensbooks about canibalistic monster bats, some where the heart of the child gets replaced by a light amitting stone that breainwashes you and another where your friendly protective polarbear eats the corps of his best friend to have the energie to safe their adoptiv daughter and you actualy friend that kind of cute . . . Cutting of the face is nothing in comparison to some childrensbooks especialy in regard of the audiance it is ment for . . .

Faceless in Oldtown is looking for a book on how to kill dragons. It could be that they are looking into what happens when a dragon which is a source/battery of R'hllor fire magic comes into contact with the weirwood tree's anti-magic psionic/mental properties. Both dragons and warged animals seem unable or unwilling to fly over the wall. A bird is seen bursting into flames, but if fire cannot harm the dragon, would it also? That could be what they are trying to discover. Weirwood trees are not native to Essos. But perhaps the meisters have recorded some events of dragons being killed or harmed by flying too close to a tree. If so, it would likely be in that book. If I were a Faceless Man and recently bought a dragon egg when I got it to hatch I would want to know if I could kill it, warg into its face, and what might happen when I flew over the wall to bring death to the immortal Others or over the gods eye to bring death to the weirwoods that cause the Others.

I'm wondering why neither of you tried to establish a link between the Faceless man and the Iron Bank. And why was Jaeqen in (the cells of) King's Landing in the first place?

@210SAi

4 жыл бұрын

He was sent there to kill Ned

Are they really a front for the Church of stary wisdom?

Sooo listening 3yrs later in 2024 (still no WOW🙄) BUT .....don't feel like wearing the faces is bringing people back to life against their will. I think it's more like an echo of the person's past life, like there is memory and strong feelings/traumas inbeded in that face....like smelling perfume after a person has left the room, or the warmth left behind on a toilet seat.

Part 1 Arya on the boat. They are probably aware that trainees use boats too. They might have wondered if Arya was someone like the waif or someone on their way to entering the order. I think if they thought she was a fully trained FL man, they wouldn’t go near her or let others go near her. Just making sure she knew your name would do. In order to be anyone, they must first become no one. You must let your past go. I think you are too strict in applying these unstated rules. Just because the general populace thinks a Faceless man can’t kill someone they have met or who they know their name, does not mean it is true. I know people’s names and have met people but that doesn’t mean I know them. I only know present friends or those I’ve developed an affection of sorts. It’s shorthand for “I like this person enough for it to interfere with my job” .It allows FL men to not be perfect. To acknowledge they have feelings. The face used by the Jacquin is a glamour. Real magic requires blood sacrifice. They cut Arya and the blood sheets down over her face. Her dead skin absorbs that “sacrificial” blood and becomes alive. We do not see if a ceremony is involved. It does not change her real face. Arya runs her tongue over her teeth to see if they are still there. They are. The face carries only memories, not the dead person. Even Arya is able to shake them off. This idea of instantly being able to change faces is a show conceit. Magic is not that easy. Learning how to cast a glamour is easy and will do just as well in almost all cases. So why put a mask on Arya if a glamour will do? Probably part of her test. She must kill this man but must also be able to wear a mask. If using masks was as simple as on the show, this wouldn’t be necessary.

IDG!!!

Re: the faceless men are their own heretics, is it not common with humans that we often become what we hate?

It could be that they can't kill people they 'know' from their old life. I would think that people they met after becoming faceless men would be fair game.