edit: quick clarification, i fucked up not making this clearer, but i'm partly also trying to convey what valve might be thinking - answering why valve might not have done X solution yet. i don't personally hold the views i argue as a devil's advocate. i understand you don't need everything to be perfect, valve could just do some soft fixes. but the treadmill is self admitted by valve employees to be a problem of concern, so that's why i'm trying to illustrate that perspective. i personally am not trying to ask for perfection or say they must go for only the best most fool proof solution. --- HELLO first time making such a massive video. let me know if you have any feedback about the video :) also, i one-take'd the voice recording when i usually recording everything multiple times over - sorry if it's bad. script was just too long to do multiple takes

@chairinspace7956

Жыл бұрын

Why would the script be bad? It's so good

@xMrPhantofulx

Жыл бұрын

Shounic, is not just developing a better anti-cheat a solution? VAC is a completely archaic anti-cheat with a design philosophy from the 90s. Most games use anti-cheats that use kernel-level components. FACEIT has no issue with cheating in CS:GO or TF2 due to their kernel-level anti-cheat. Same with Easy Anti-Cheat. Valorant also has the best anti-cheat development in the entire video game industry. It's odd to say these anti-cheats are 'invasive' when... that's linked to the entire purpose of anti-cheat. Perhaps make it a server cvar to require connecting to the server using a new kernel-level anticheat, and people who are too scared to use the new anticheat can stick to VAC """secure""" servers. Regardless, loved the video.

@inedholp1565

Жыл бұрын

@@xMrPhantofulx i'm pretty sure there have been videos of people cheating on faceit servers.

@inedholp1565

Жыл бұрын

@@chairinspace7956 he didn't say the script was bad, he just said sorry if the voice over was bad because the script was so long

@shounic

Жыл бұрын

@@xMrPhantofulx bots cheating is a secondary concern. the main problem is still just that there's lots of fake players that people don't want. if you somehow perfectly ban cheating you still have lots of fake players clogging the servers. + as i said in the video, perfect cheat measures and limits just means they get limited to human ability which is still very good and disruptive

It feels so disheartening that so many possible solutions are instantly shot down with "there's a website that can be used to circumvent it."

@WestRail642fan

Жыл бұрын

yep, its really sucks

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

Ppl dont often realize how easy it is to cause problems and how hard it is to fix them

@Ashe1001

Жыл бұрын

@@Ultra289 That is surprisingly universal and depressing.

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

@@Ashe1001 and worse of all is that not only applies to fixing cheating issues or bugs...

@Alcatrax_

Жыл бұрын

Welcome to the world of programming

The goal would never be make it "impossible" for bots to join the game, the goal should only be to make bots too much of a hastle to bother at the current scale.

@user-ee6ng4bb9l

Жыл бұрын

I had that feeling as well. The more I thought about valve not wanting it to be a "treadmill problem" I realized, cheating and bots are ALWAYS a treadmill problem. It never ends so complaining that they don't want to spend the time on it is just absurd.

@aylmao1230

Жыл бұрын

@@user-ee6ng4bb9l It’s deadass valve employees being lazy lmao

@NuStiuFrate

Жыл бұрын

@@aylmao1230 Oh no, i have to maintain a game that brings in money instead of doing nothing and getting paid, how horrible! - Valve employee

@crisis8v88

Жыл бұрын

There are likely enough dedicated botters willing to clear any new hurdles and disrupt the game that you wouldn't even notice an improvement if you dissuaded some from botting. And once the more talented members of that black hat community find a workaround to any new barrier, the bottom feeders will come back. If that new barrier also impacts the human community of players (e.g. CAPTCHA, timed queue lockouts), then that's a win for the botters.

@Web720

Жыл бұрын

@@aylmao1230 Stupid comment.

>Maybe players should have to submit a DNA sample before they’re allowed into Steam servers. >This doesn’t work because cheaters can simply buy artificial human DNA online at rates of $1 per hundred-million sequences. >Well shit.

@methanesulfonic

Жыл бұрын

they cant keep getting away with it

@jamesfinch6139

Жыл бұрын

@@methanesulfonic THEY CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

@evangonzalez7732

Жыл бұрын

Remove the sniper class. The cheating will stop, and who's gonna stop it? They're sniper mains, they don't get to choose lol

@crxw4

Жыл бұрын

@@evangonzalez7732 this is the worst and most selfish solution i have ever seen

@evangonzalez7732

Жыл бұрын

@@crxw4 it's also... A j o k e.

The fact that there's a community of people dedicated to cheating and ruining games is just infuriating.

@meat.

Жыл бұрын

I don’t get why no one has tracked down the people hosting the bots and killed them yet lol

@cactieythecactus

Жыл бұрын

@@meat. due to jail and lack of currency we are unable to assasinate them

@alexrowe7063

Жыл бұрын

​@@meat. you'd be a bigger loser wasting time tracking down trolls to kill them over a video game. which is why no one has done it

@randomdeliveryguy

Жыл бұрын

@@meat. Because ending someone's life over a fucking video game is something pretty heinous.

@JNJNRobin1337

Жыл бұрын

because bots arent as bad as people that actively forcefully shut down game servers potentially permanantly

I'd like to say that the fact the game got two updates fixing ancient bugs means (in my eyes) that there is people that wanted to fix TF2 for a long time, and only now they can.

@SheLikesLoons

Жыл бұрын

you do know that those were just 2 of the probably hundreds of bug fixes COMMUNITY members fixed and just sent over to valve right?

@SheLikesLoons

Жыл бұрын

you do know those fixes were made by community right? they were just sent over to valve

@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth

Жыл бұрын

But do you realize that these are community updates, right?? They're being sent to Valve in the mail.

@bagofbananas790

Жыл бұрын

If they wanted to fix tf2 they would've done so a long time ago. Valve let's its workers work on whatever they want so if someone wanted to work in tf2 they would be allowed to.

@catswork

Жыл бұрын

@@bagofbananas790 you would think so but internal reports from balve show that senior employees can basically bully lower employees to work on more "important" things. happened with Alyx, the Steam Deck and countless other projects. savetf2 was the kick to prove that tf2 is important enough to care about.

All this being said, both teams being able to call votes at once genuinely has made the problem a lot more bearable. As long as you can survive the very start of a server, bots stand absolutely no chance anymore.

@Markus1002

Жыл бұрын

It can take a long time for anyone to start a vote kick though. In a lot of games I've been the only one to do it.

@mattbutalt723

Жыл бұрын

@@Markus1002 f2ps can't start a vote, before I upgraded my account to premium, whenever I tried to start a vote it just says "you cannot start a vote right now" That message never popped up after I got premium

@danielbedrossian5986

Жыл бұрын

Have you even noticed how ignorat players can be, not replying for a vote, call a vote, or even communicate and read chat? I doupth all those I see not acking are people with different language and can't read.

@roby4504

Жыл бұрын

It would be cool if the kick cooldown time (after kicking) was shorter.

@BichaelStevens

Жыл бұрын

Yeahhhh except when the fella named DON'T LOOK AT ME joins your game and is absolutely unkickable literally no matter what

The idea behind many of these suggestions isn't that they would be impossible to bypass, it's that implementing them would make bot hosting exponentially more difficult and expensive. The issue isn't that bot hosting is possible, it's that it's inexpensive and easy to do at scale.

@MrSonny6155

7 ай бұрын

But also many of these solutions could make it exponentially more difficult for human players too. It doesn't even have to be a worse for bots than for humans, rather just enough to kill off a community. I don't imagine that many people will have more patience than that one spiteful guy who has sworn their life to making others truly miserable. Except maybe MMO players. They seem to have patience for anything.

@elireloaded

4 ай бұрын

Exactly.

@jacksoncremean1664

3 ай бұрын

this is true for preventing any kind of abuse, the goal is to maximize pain for the cheater while also not annoying legitimete user. it's a tricky balance to achieve though. rate limiting, using cloudflare turnstile captcha, and limiting new account creation will overall make the cheating problem much easier to manage.

Fighting cheaters as a game developer is like fighting hackers as a security researcher. It's literally always a treadmill problem, so you have to be willing to put up a bigger fight than your adversary.

@GolAcheron-fc4ug

3 ай бұрын

Exactly. Valve just wants to be lazy. They are so used to being paid for doing nothing nowadays.

@SomeOne-vf1rs

3 ай бұрын

I refuse to believe it is impossible or even very hard to put some code in a game that says “oh this person is achieving 100% headshots in rapid succession, ban them.” Especially with the algorithms people are developing it becomes easier and easier to tell people and machines apart. I fully believe it will get to a point where the only way to have a bot pass through an anti cheat, it will have to move and react in a completely human manner, and at that point your bot is not actually useful for ruining the game. You’re populating the servers and giving people a fair rival to fight against.

@8stormy5

3 ай бұрын

@@SomeOne-vf1rsIt's literally already a thing. CSGO (now CS2) has a "tripwire" condition that logs if you attempt an impossible view angle, which is notably caused by spinbotting and other aim-related ragehacking in the Source engine. This happens because of how the injected cheats modify the data being sent to the server and the data being sent back to the client. Tripping it too often too quickly results in an instant ban. I know this because I was once a script kiddie some ten years ago and got banned by this check. So a very basic check that Valve wrote themselves and has been running for ten years is entirely absent from TF2 despite this being the literal most obvious case to use it.

@SomeOne-vf1rs

3 ай бұрын

@@8stormy5 Wow that’s very disappointing

@SuperM789

2 ай бұрын

It’s also like that when fighting piracy

Basically what I got from this video Valve is smaller than Bethesda We are fighting Bots with Malice not Humans The short term solutions are basically disable F2P chat 2.0 Fixing the bot problem is really complicated Cheaters are persistent little turds

@winterfrostarian

Жыл бұрын

Feels like a “_____ Is not the problem, the world is” video

@the_cat9568

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the only true way to stop the hacking is to get the hackers to feel compassion… Which they don’t at the moment.

@starmaker75

Жыл бұрын

Or if we have some magic or technology that teleport to the bot makers's home to beat them up every time they cheat.

@gloobamane6516

Жыл бұрын

they could just add a prime account feature like csgo has.

@rane7784

Жыл бұрын

@@the_cat9568 what "at the moment"? They'll never have compassion. Cheaters and hackers feed off of someone's suffering and people getting mad at them. I know that because I was a cheater once in PG3D. I didn't give a single turd about the kids crying back in 2017.

The invisible player thing is at least a tiny bit feasible, Minecraft servers used to use a player that would spawn behind your back at random times and it would detect if you tracked/attacked them, banning you immediately. It moved so fast and appeared for such a short time that no real player would ever be able to track them, but players using Kill Aura would always hit the hidden player. Bot creators could obviously figure out a way to avoid the hidden player eventually, but it did take a really long time for people to figure out how to circumvent it in minecraft

@celestialowl8865

Жыл бұрын

Minecraft servers still have these forms of anticheat.

@realPurpleOrb

Жыл бұрын

@@celestialowl8865 For instance, hypixel uses something similar, but it's actually worse than it. If the biggest server is using something similar, then other servers are going to use this solution.

@router_BasedUser

Жыл бұрын

i actually do track them when I see them, and I get very scared of a player just materializing behind me (i'm hardwired to think there are many reasons for that to happen) no bans yet

@forceawakens4449

Жыл бұрын

Some servers even have anti xray, it places a ton of fake ores around and i believe hides any real ones until they are in line of sight

@LoraLoibu

Жыл бұрын

@@router_BasedUser Played too much tf2?

"invisible players to bait bots" is actually basically how minecraft servers prevent cheaters, just not quite as literally as you're interpreting it. the fake players are silently spawned behind the bots to bait the bots into snapping their heads backwards and sniping the fake player. though this has the same treadmill problem where the botters would just disable the random head rotating and instead try to create a bot that looks around "naturally" and only snipes players in view or alternate targets every shot or whatever

@koghs

Жыл бұрын

Many Minecraft servers have that god awful anti x-ray bot that works by randomising non-visible to player blocks

@littlenyancat5754

Жыл бұрын

In addition to that, those invisible players also detect kill aura users. The invisible players are spawned in a way that normal players can't hit them (ie, behind the player), but kill auras can. If the server detects that the invisible player was hit, then that's a cheater.

@immortalsun

Жыл бұрын

@@koghs I know about those plugins. What’s wrong with them? They can impact performance in some cases, but I do believe they work.

@imaginaryboy2000

Жыл бұрын

TF2 bots have long since moved past trying to headshot players through walls, if an anti-cheat like that were implimented they'd either easily work around it (i.e. not targetting players in spawn) or the anti-cheat wouldn't work in the first place. Either way it'd be unnatural for casual players if the "enemies" were visible, so it's likely not a solution Valve would end up going with.

@lexikiq

Жыл бұрын

@@imaginaryboy2000 Your comment here doesn't seem very relevant to mine? Sounds like you're talking about something completely different

The true solution: For every 10 kills in a killstreak, you have to solve a timed pop-up CAPTCHA

@750TheBoss

7 ай бұрын

This wouldn't work, because bots would be programmed to commit suicide using kill/explode commands at 9-kill streak

@HexSaber

7 ай бұрын

@@750TheBossit’s a joke

@yarknark

7 ай бұрын

​@@HexSaber that comment was also a joke about how in the video every solution like that gets refuted, like the captcha argument in the video stating that the captcha could just be outsourced to a human to do it for them or a program that auto-solves them

@iclarke11

5 ай бұрын

This except it happens every 1-10 frags. That way you cant have bot destroy itself every 9 frags.

@nef36

5 ай бұрын

@@750TheBoss nonwithstanding how hast a robot could solve the captcha I think just solvint it would be faster than waiting to respawn and walking back to the fight lmao

Best solution : Valve hires several platoons of dangerous, armed and skilled hitmen who are to eliminate every bot owner and cheaters. *Cue magnum force*

@redbird1f873

Жыл бұрын

That's a bit excessive, to say the least. These miserable people deserve scrorn from community, not death.

@redbird1f873

Жыл бұрын

And besides that, if cheaters can impersonate players, why don't you think they can frame someone innocent? Well that was too serious for the reply to joke comment...

@sentientlemonbattery

Жыл бұрын

center of chaos containment

@guncatto2625

Жыл бұрын

@@redbird1f873 the solution is simple. Destroy the computers. Make them unusable via virus. Seems fun. Cheaters most likely have money issues. Boom.

@JM-dq7xn

Жыл бұрын

"wake up and choose violence" method lol

This has opened my eyes A LOT than i could've known, i really didn't know valve basically had the lowest count of staff untill now, that explains a lot of things

@ericquiabazza2608

Жыл бұрын

Yes. But also concider that they keep game production and earnings from this and other games. TF2 alone earn them a LOT of money. The minimal staff just tells you the amount of corruption this company has: Minimize cost, maximize gains. Specially up CEO salaries, as is seen in several industries like industry and interteinment this is the MOST POPULAR thing now. Menwhile low rank worker are trated like slaves, avused, bullied, exploited and treathen with firings trought illegal means as to not repay them.

@alraz5832

Жыл бұрын

Immediately want to say: I haven't watched the video yet. For about three years I just assumed that all this time they were taking care of DOTA, SOURCE 2/Half Life Alyx instead of focusing on other places. I remember watching some video that explains how Valve works with its programmers, how they don't technically have dedicated folk on a special seat but many different folk working on different projects that sometimes come together to focus on one thing (like game creation) and literally the next day that same group would scatter for updating CSGO or other games, and then one day come back to game creation etc. IMO it's a combination of things that lead up to "abandoning" TF2, not just money. But at the same time, Valve is somewhat secretive when it comes to what happens there and the truth could be something completely different.

@mentosvagabond

Жыл бұрын

The meme "last 2 TF2 dev be like" is not only a meme anymore.

@chillingchill6823

Жыл бұрын

@@ericquiabazza2608 calm down son, that's not corruption

@kotomishione

Жыл бұрын

@@ericquiabazza2608 shut up dude you look ridiculous

While not as effective, I still think the hardware ban would at the very least discourage bot users to a certain degree, and definitely annoy them. It may not be flawless, but it is one of the better solutions out of all of these. A big problem with player based cheat detection, is that especially in Tf2, there are tons of toxic players. It's not uncommon for people to get kicked and reported for simply being good at the game, or just to get kicked for no good reason. I just hope we get more support from Valve and at least ease the situation.

@skyleite

Жыл бұрын

It would literally be useless. Spoofing hardware ID is so easy that it could even be built into the cheats themselves. As in, it would detect when an account was banned and immediately rotate all the hardware IDs to something else. Not to mention, of course, the possibility of banning cheaters using random hardware IDs, only for some poor bastard to buy a legitimate piece of hardware only to find out it was banned years ago.

@GirlGoneGaming

11 ай бұрын

i main sniper, yeah? i usually get kicked from a server at least once a day, and i only have ten total hours on tf2 as of writing this. it is definitely something that happens often

@errienteunisse8038

6 ай бұрын

@@GirlGoneGaming Well any solution should also include the Deletion of the sniper class for game health reasons.

deep learning to detect bot like behavior is an extremely good way of dealing with the problem. you state in the video that this will only force bots to play more like humans. EXACTLY. If bots are playing like humans, then the game is restored and playable again. if bots are always playing "bad" enough to not get detected as bots, then they are completely pointless and stop being a problem. its like having a fake doctor that knows literally everything about medicine, and never makes a single mistake despite not having a medical degree.

@arianheight750

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it's a beautiful solution. Though, we'll have to see exactly what sort of machine learning scheme valve implements to see how effective it is or isn't.

@PurpleColonel

Жыл бұрын

Idk I think playing against a thousand players who are all as good as the dozen or so top players would be pretty infuriating too.

@Elkomolozupo

Жыл бұрын

Its a valid method but they can still votekick if they manage to overrun a server

@houndoomdude2

Жыл бұрын

Yeah bots behaving like players is not ideal but miles ahead of sniper bots

@2fifty533

Жыл бұрын

@@PurpleColonel well it's better than nothing lol

I appreciate the realism of this video, people really think its a lot easier to solve a problem like this and it's quite frustrating sometimes. Keep it up!

@ericquiabazza2608

Жыл бұрын

Yes and no. KZread is the same and people has express it abuse. What happen is that this is in part an excuse. "I wont clean the bathroom because is gonna get dirty again" type of deal. Is even more fake when you concider the alarmin low staff, this tells you corpo interest is in exploit staff to the limit while gaining maximum profit. So it isnt that they "Cant easily" is that they are NOT gonna put more money or hiring anyone else to deal with this. It defies their bottom line ideals.

@shumo7096

Жыл бұрын

Ok but how do community servers instantly ban bots? How do they know??

@Henry-Wilder

Жыл бұрын

@@shumo7096 Do they really instantly ban bots? Or is it just that the bots are only queuing for casual?

@abicto

Жыл бұрын

@@shumo7096 because they're smaller so its easier to ban them manually

@Temmoie

Жыл бұрын

@@shumo7096 They're monitored by active human admins, compare with Valve servers in hundreds, you'd need hundreds of admins for that, and that'll cost Valve money. Which is why they prefer using AI do the admin job instead.

I think alot of people don't realize that even if we fixed them being able to aimbot and instant kill players. They would still dogpile lobbies, fill player slots, and kick players. Just because we fix one issue doesn't mean they magically go away. The people that host these bots will do anything to disrupt the game.

@oza_lup

Жыл бұрын

So lets just delete the game

@Ultimaximus

Жыл бұрын

There still must be some solution. Although every game has cheaters, none has as many automated bot cheaters as TF2. Either other games have some solution that works for them, or TF2 is just the only game that's ever been targeted by this many bots at once, and any other game *could* be overrun if enough botmakers tried

@QuintessentialWalrus

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure if there's anything bots could do that's more disruptive than instakilling human players, though. Filling player slots and kicking humans is something they already try to do right now, and they're usually unsuccessful because TF2 is a popular game with a lot of human players.

@alexxx4434

Жыл бұрын

Capcha was invented for a reason.

@Ultimaximus

Жыл бұрын

@@alexxx4434 The video addresses this. There are paid captcha-solving services that hire real humans to solve captchas for you

The "just use community servers" solution is just the "give up" solution, it isn't one.

@crosssans6245

4 ай бұрын

And giving up isn’t honorable of right in any shape or form

@TomoLamp

3 ай бұрын

​@@crosssans6245thats a very "sink with the ship" kind of mindset

@jrperry1611

3 ай бұрын

I know it’s giving up, but playing with the same 23 people with small variations everyday is very fun. It’s like playing with a friend online but nobody is even on your friend list.

I was quite blown away when someone I knew suggested removing the nav meshes. I studied nav meshes for a short time, so hearing something like that was crazy to me since they can simply be remade with nav_generate.

@iota3243

Жыл бұрын

I thought the same thing haha. I used to tinker with game bots all the time when I was younger so I learned about nav meshes for them so I could use them on more maps.

@georgegeorge25812g

Жыл бұрын

When i first got tf2 i didnt have good internet, so i played with bots and i learned this very quickly lol

"We're always, always short on engineers" seems to be a problem in every industry, doesn't it

@idrissberchil25

Жыл бұрын

Ngl, i wanted to be an engineer, but schools keep telling me im under qualified

@mark-jf5ik

Жыл бұрын

@@idrissberchil25 its pretty much a money job, no one really wants to do it if they don’t happen to be skilled at it, and if they are- theres better paying options then a middle man company that survives on game taxes

@gyroninjamodder

Жыл бұрын

Valve just doesn't want to hire a ton of people.

@Ana_Ng

Жыл бұрын

it absolutely is a problem in every industry, but as @@gyroninjamodder said, that's not why valve is short. _valve_ of all companies won't have issues finding competent engineers

@yandr0

Жыл бұрын

Well. More reasons for finish my informatic engineering carrer

I could tell number 2 was a bot. That aside, a bot that plays like a bad/new player aren't the problem. Its bots that play at superhuman levels that are the issue.

@squmulonimbus

Жыл бұрын

even if they're forced to make the bots play more like humans, they can still fill up servers and disrupt the game in other ways, kick any human players, cause long queue times, make chat unusable, follow teammates around while constantly hitting them with the frying pan, etc.

@TeamSprocket

Жыл бұрын

@@squmulonimbus Right, but it's an improvement over the server-destroying sniper bots.

@milesbrown2261

Жыл бұрын

yeah that pissed me off so much like, we just want these aimbotters gone at the very fuckign least god im so mad

@devilex121

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, I'm still fine with playing against bots that play "normally". It's those stupid insta-kill bots that have basically ruined the game.

@partyboycs6086

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, and I've never played tf2 before (just lots of csgo) and I could still instantly tell #2 was a bot and others were human. Overwatch can work well if implemented properly, and like you said the biggest issue are the blatant insane cheating bots, who cares if there's a bot that sucks?

Cheating is a form of denial-of-service. (no, DDOS attacks are NOT the ONLY manifestation of a "denial of service"). There should be private firms who specialize in uncovering the identities of cheaters and cheat-program developers, and, in the law enforcement side, there should be prosecutors who take this seriously (if necessary, enact legislation to change this from being a civil matter to a criminal matter). Just because this is happening within videogames shouldn't matter to the gravity of the situation -- a violation of private property rights, is a violation of private property rights.

@ashstaredviper

4 ай бұрын

Good luck handling cheaters from another country. This only works if there is one world gov,

@verticalflyingb737

3 ай бұрын

Sounds completely mental. Take my wallet.

@noahthecrazy1632

Ай бұрын

It’s basically vandalism

@pliat

Ай бұрын

Good luck with the chinese

Note for the name banning solution its also horrible since in the case its implemented on a regular basis you could just set up a bunch of bots with the same name as someone you want banned and they're done

4:20 "So you would literally ban everyone on steam called Twilight Sparkle" Some of you may die, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make

@Starpotion

Жыл бұрын

"Nice, we got rid of all the bots!" "...bots?"

@azure273

Жыл бұрын

“Nothing of value was lost today”

@blobbem

Жыл бұрын

A certified Trixie Moment™.

@Mwright4444

Жыл бұрын

@@blobbem You sold at life.

@feinky8489

Жыл бұрын

I see this as an absolute win!

TF2 having a consistently larger player count helps quite a bit with making bots less likely to appear in games.

@LieseFury

Жыл бұрын

Then maybe they should untangle the spaghetti code so people with older and cheaper computers can still play. I used to play all the time on my ThinkPad E540 and now the game barely runs on it and frequently crashes because there's so much bullshit constantly running in the background that wasn't there before. Poor people are far more likely to play a free game and are far less likely to have good PCs.

@airayne5176

Жыл бұрын

Untangling the tf2 code is like me asking you to sprout wings in the next 5 seconds and fly. It's not going to happen, one of the main reasons no one wants to work on tf2 is bc of said code, let alone attempting to fix it.

@M50A1

Жыл бұрын

@@LieseFury Cope.

@LieseFury

Жыл бұрын

@@airayne5176 God forbid someone ask a game developer to develop a game.

@LieseFury

Жыл бұрын

@@M50A1 Your mom doesn't love you.

Honestly, the idea of Valve sueing for 10 million dollars from bot hosters and then using it to fund the Heavy update, even if it wouldn't stop all the bot hosters would be damn sweet. And optimistic.

this video is a breath of fresh air. I am so sick and tired of watching KZreadrs think they know everything and saying valve doesn't care about TF2.

@nts0n

Жыл бұрын

They don’t though. They simply hire someone else who could not possibly fix these major problems alone and release cosmetic cases to milk their abandoned game for a little more money, never releasing a substantial gameplay update, a statement about how they’re working on it that isn’t because they were forced to by some twitter movement that died immediately as they pushed out a low-effort response. Or maybe what we really need is an official statement about TF2 being abandoned for good instead of the game being kept on life support. Valve clearly does not want or cannot work on this game, and until there is real change in the way TF2 is handled I cannot see it in any other way.

@aibadenshi

Жыл бұрын

@@nts0n Despite how much we hate valve that they don't do anything about and we keep consistently saying this is how we should fix it. Like the video said, there is no "Real" fix and thing will continue once again. Even if they hire someone, it not a instantly clear victory since a Dev team that probably not even more then 10 vs a community with hundred or thousand. Remember the Dev at Valve is force to fight against a community solely to hacking their game. Saying how to fix is the easy part. Actually coding the fix and prevention is that cancer multiply by cancer

@octovenom_

Жыл бұрын

@@capofantasma97 valve works on valve time. They don't force employees to work on updates. What they do have is quotas. There are currently two employees working part-time on TF2 they can't work full-time on TF2 because they have a quota to make. So those people are working on other games like DOTA and CS go. Please do your research about valve first before saying dumb stuff. It's not that valve doesn't care about TF2 it's that they have a lot of stuff on their plate right now. and they don't work like regular Triple-A game companies. Valve is currently working on VR hardware/software and VR games. the employees at valve have wheels on their desk because they have the right to work on any game they want at any time. But they have a yearly quota they have to meet. So a lot of valve employees have to work on games that look good on paper. Optimizing TF2 doesn't look good on paper because it is a garbage amount of spaghetti code. The spaghetti code is the main reason why no new employees don't want to work on TF2. And the yearly quota is the main reason why old employees don't want to work on TF2 full time.

@CatInDamnHat

Жыл бұрын

@@capofantasma97 agreed, valve can just make csgo case and Dota pass, and only from that buy fuскing half of Texas(they can't but y get me), the only thing they want to work with is source 2 cuz idk it's looks cool and have much less problems than first source and vr games which in future will be even more popular, but people think valve just interested by money which they can get in any amount they need in month

@octovenom_

Жыл бұрын

@@capofantasma97 I agree with half of your statement here but the other half I disagree. and you have the right to your opinion just as I do about mine. yes I did get most of my information from the valve News Network. I haven't heard anything about valve doing crunch because they don't really do release dates but I could be wrong. but this part in your argument here "no one outside of Valve has a clear view on the internal organization. And I doubt you are one of their employees." that is the biggest Catch-22 for an argument ever. Yeah I'm not a valve employee... but neither are you. that line they're invalidated the rest of your argument. I don't understand what you were trying to gain by saying that Please don't say dumb stuff while telling people to not say dumb stuff ¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

Ya know what? After watching the segment beginning at 24:06, it dawned on me: no one actually gives a damn about bots in general. As long as the account you're playing against or along-side shows certain kinds of expected behavior (newbie, casual, try-hard, friendly, etc.), it's just another round. The problem is the blatant display of contempt that is 6 snipers wearing free cosmetics and aiming at the sky running around and one-shotting anyone who dares expose a single pixel of their head - all while mic-spamming garbage, soft-locking the objective, kicking legitimate players, and attempting to crash the server. There have always been bots and there will always be bots. What needs to stop is this objectively evil behavior preventing people from even playing the game.

@st2udent_650

Жыл бұрын

Bingo my man

@Wiimeiser

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, the only way to do that is to track down the IRL people running these bots and arrest them.

@MrPablosek

Жыл бұрын

@@Wiimeiser You arrest one, 10 more take his place. This was already seen in software piracy. Won't work here either, just like it does not work on any other illegal activity even in real life. Arrest one drug dealer, there are still more ready to take their place.

@uhrguhrguhrg

Жыл бұрын

@@MrPablosek but at the same time tf2 is a relatively small community. The amount of possible cheaters is finite. And the amount doesn't have to be 0, just low enough that it doesn't impact most of the rounds.

@kevinquintana2647

Жыл бұрын

@@MrPablosek That is assuming an infinite number of bot hosts ready and waiting to take the place of anyone arrested. While there are likely some out there who would jump in, they are not infinite. And when they start getting arrested then odds are those who remain will stop doing it because the reward is not worth the risk. Difference between that and drug dealers is money, risk to reward, there's not much reward for flooding a game with bad bots. Now the real question is can these bot hosts be arrested, is what they are doing even illegal. I'm pretty sure it is but I am not aware of any relevant laws.

15:28 Something to add, the reason that there have been so many bots within the past few years when before then there were basically none, was that Cathook was made, which was undetected, free, and could be ran in multiple instances easily. It is undetected because it is on Linux, and due to the nature of how Linux works, VAC is severely limited on there in comparison to Windows. Lmaobox also does not allow for unlimited active instances like Cathook, so it would require the bot hoster to pay roughly $10 for every instance he wants to open, as you can only open 2 at a time reliably. (As $20/2 = 10) As cathook is completely open source, Valve would have an incredibly easy time getting VAC to detect it if it was ported to Windows. Bot hosters don't make much profit at all from bot hosting, it's just fun to them. I doubt most would pay the $10 price for every 2 instances they want active. Another reason that Cathook is so popular for hosting bots is because Linux is very lightweight and easy to run in the background in comparison to Windows, making it more viable for low end computers.

@henrikginnerup8345

Жыл бұрын

If they can hack the game, you don't think they would crack the bot software?

@ProperlyPsychotic

Жыл бұрын

@@henrikginnerup8345 a cracked version exists, but it is detected by VAC and will result in a quick ban

A perfect solution: add a crypto miner to TF2 that cannot be removed! Valve would profit from the bot makers, and the bots would be more expensive to run! (in case you hadn't noticed, this is a joke suggestion)

@lokipoki3122

Жыл бұрын

Or maybe remove Sniper class completely from game

@packediceisthebestminecraf9007

Жыл бұрын

@@lokipoki3122 yes, that would make more spy crab bots!

@bimgus5808

Жыл бұрын

Remove all classes, all weapons, etc. Then, there won't be snipers or spy crabs.

@JNJNRobin1337

Жыл бұрын

just fry hardware and send the maximum amount of police to everyones house possible

@maz5-870

Жыл бұрын

@@lokipoki3122 Now you are thinking outside of the box XD

"See if you can tell which one is a bot or human" **shows someone using the tomislav at long range** Shounic you're making this too eazy

@Hambrack

Жыл бұрын

When I saw that heavy with the festive skin Tomislav with awful tracking, for a moment I thought Shounic got some footage of me playing.

@jockeysface8753

Жыл бұрын

@@Hambrack yeah me too i play like that bruh

@noskin7290

Жыл бұрын

yeh the cheater was easy to spot

@napoleon7075

Жыл бұрын

this man really spelt easy with a z

@evee_evvillamar4477

Жыл бұрын

@@Hambrack fat sniper

With all due respect, the CSGO Overwatch solution has worked wonders for the hitscan approach that currently plagues the game with sniper headshot spam. While you could argue that swapping to an approach that uses projectile classes to avoid detection, the "Suspect" gameplay you showed wasn't anywhere near as oppressive or unbeatable as a sniper that headshots you the moment you're visible.

@moona4180

Жыл бұрын

IMO the reason the convictions dosnt go up is less to do with its effectiveness and more to do with the fact that there are only so many cheaters but if you can use overeat h and see a bot obviously doing what they do that’s a easy convictions

@howaboutno4008

Жыл бұрын

i'd just remove sniper class lol

@thebushbros6626

Жыл бұрын

While you have a point, the problem is that the TF2 community has shown that they have no idea how differentiate between a cheater and a good player, and the fat magic controversy has shown that.

@2syk4ever

Жыл бұрын

But the point is TF2 IS NOT A COMPETITIVE. The problem is a lot of people in tf2 community doesnt know who is a cheater and who is a skiller. FatMagic is a big example

@gmodrules123456789

Жыл бұрын

Shounic is literally the kind of person who would say "well, this is able to cure one kind of cancer, but it doesn't cure ALL cancer, so we shouldn't even bother doing it"

I think the solution isn't any single one of the presented solutions, but a combination of many/all of them. Steam guard, trust factor, overwatch system, queue cooldown, prime matchmaking, vacnet, and a captcha *all combined* would be a ton to just drop on bots, and while each "fix" on it's own could be circumvented or bypassed given enough time/effort/money, adding ALL of these together would hopefully be enough to prevent 99% of it; think of it like a water filter. You don't just have a carbon filter, or just a sand filter, or just a mesh filter etc., you have ALL the stages combined so anything that gets through one stage gets caught by the next, filtering it finer and finer until the final product is safe enough to drink. All the proposed solutions combined would be like the stages in a water filter; while it may be possible for some particularly nasty things to bypass one or two stages, bypassing ALL of them would be unfeasible for the majority of cheaters due to the amount of workarounds and paywalls required, and even for those most dedicated to trying to do everything they can to bypass the systems it'd be too much of a financial burden to be worth the tiny payoff of mildly annoying players with the few bots they can afford past.

@jayd967

Жыл бұрын

Sorry to necro, but, thank you, this is actually the correct take. Dealing with bots, spammers, etc. has always been about mitigation, and the handwringing over all of these strategies as if they're meant to be employed individually to stop all botting forever vs. being used as part of a multi-layered defense to make botting too onerous to be feasible for most people is so semantic it drives me nuts.

@rodolfo9876a

Жыл бұрын

I agree

@boltogen5416

3 ай бұрын

Honestly this also the bot hosters want too though. Their goal is simply to frustrate people enough so that they stop playing. And I can definitely see people getting upset from changes like this into the game where valve ends up doing the job the bot hosters want for them. People who just want to play the game would already dislike any change that makes it harder to play a match. Some also do not want to give personal info to any company, and that can include things like phone numbers. These people would be driven away from the game. Which is what the bot hosters want. They don’t care how it happens, they just want people to get mad and stop playing.

@verticalflyingb737

3 ай бұрын

Gonna play the devil's advocate here; if the combination of solutions end up annoying real human players to a degree similar to bots, then the botters had pretty much won.

@RdTrler

2 ай бұрын

Except you don't see games with all those solutions, because they all died of a compromised gaming experience. It'd be like going to a fast food restaurant with a hundred people in the queue. You don't see them, because I'd like to be home by sundown.

Well here's the deal. If bots are all limited to just human capabilities, that's not that very disruptive, right? You can still have a spy roll up behind a bot and take him out. I think that would be a good deterrent, since bot hosters wouldn't really be incentivised to just have a bunch of bots that basically do nothing

@hexa138

Жыл бұрын

Pub stompers are enough to mow down an entire team. Not to mention people like Fatmagic or FSoaS.

@Skeletons_Riding_Ostriches

Жыл бұрын

@@hexa138 Much better matchmaking using something like elo/glicko, or NS2's hive skill rating, could fix this - use people's rating to segregate them such that everyone only ever plays with people of a similar skill level. That means you'll only ever encounter bots about as good as you are. It also has the additional benefit of no longer matching players with people they can't possibly beat, or matching players with opponents who are too bad to be fun to play against.

@Aaa-vp6ug

9 ай бұрын

@@Skeletons_Riding_Ostrichesyeah, they tried that, twice

@SamuelTrademarked

4 ай бұрын

@@Skeletons_Riding_Ostriches or just nuke matchmaking altogether because tf2 is not competitive and it shouldn't be treated as such

@user-lh7mt7zo7l

4 ай бұрын

@@SamuelTrademarked Based

It's worth mentioning that since ipv4 addresses are becoming more and more scarce ISP's have started utilizing something called cgNAT which can mean a bunch of customers using the same ISP may have the same public IP address. In that case ip banning a single IP address could possibly ban hundreds of people.

@littlehorn0063

Жыл бұрын

No players - no bots, very elegant solution

@vFives

Жыл бұрын

@@littlehorn0063 Pragmatic. I like it.

@Chorismos

Жыл бұрын

@@littlehorn0063 Genius and straight to the point.

@courier3567

Жыл бұрын

IPv4 addresses are not really becoming more scarce. A lot of devices just have a local network IPv4 then go through a router which acts as the one IP address that is actually internet facing. It will take us a long time to run out of IPv4.

@vFives

Жыл бұрын

@@courier3567 What are you talking about, ipv4 addresses are already exhausted?? This happened in 2019! Any addresses that you may get now have been reclaimed. They are super scarce.

Only (about) 350 employees at Valve versus other companies having 500+ employees puts it into perspective why Valve is often radio silent as well as the extra time it may take for Valve to fix issues. With their other projects like steam deck and source 2, they likely don't have the Mannpower deal with so many tasks and game fixes all at once. Despite how long it took, I'm still simply glad that TF2 is slowly but surely getting updates and attention from Valve once again.

@SheLikesLoons

Жыл бұрын

so your saying that it takes more than 350 people to talk? seems wrong

@SirPembertonS.Crevalius

Жыл бұрын

@@SheLikesLoons I've basically just accepted Valve's silence. The only thing I really question about this whole TF2 situation is why did it take so long for updates to happen? The game is thriving, popular, and the community is strong, yet it feels like it was just left to die.

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

I can understand why they are just silent

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

Hehe mannpower

@LoraLoibu

Жыл бұрын

Also, most employees at valve are VR engineers. They can afford not making games because steam is just _that_ dominant

So, my takeaway from this video is that in order to fix the botting problem, TF2 needs to be removed from Linux AND Windows. It's the perfect solution! No more bots!

@ryjelsum

Жыл бұрын

macs only

@hoodcate

Жыл бұрын

@@ryjelsum the most recent Macs aren't even able to run TF2 rn LOL!

@ryjelsum

Жыл бұрын

@@hoodcate LMAO i forgot good point. they can if you tinker enough but 99.9% of people aint gonna know where to start with that

@Stazzical

Жыл бұрын

cheaters on their way to make their own tf2 game to cheat on

@Man_Aslume

2 ай бұрын

Have we considered turning TF2 servers off and on again

8:40 CS:GO used to unintentionally have this feature. On the map Cache the colliders behind the metal texture on the wall of tree room had a large gap directly across from the T-side entrance to B site. It created this invisible line of sight that players silent aim would get caught up in. The gap was so large and in such a high traffic area that, no matter how small you set your fov, if someone was in B main it would lock. Before Cache was remade there used to be entire video essays on this issue. Sadly the only clip I can easily find of this in 2022 is a somewhat controversial one, but if you download an older version of the map you can still see it for yourself today. /watch?v=fGrmUQAh-WQ

At the overwatch part i could correctly guess that suspect 2 was the bot. His camera movement was too smooth and consistent for humans to replicate, and it was very distinctly trailing behind the player it was shooting(this is how the smoothing feature usually works in aimbots). Keep in mind, this was a very short clip, and in an entire match, the bot is bound to slip up eventually(the bots are indeed advanced but they can still be detected, usually due to incorrectly navigating the map such as randomly jumping into walls, getting stuck in a very shallow hole or not being able to make jumps that most humans can). I think overwatch for TF2 would be very beneficial due to casual bots usually using blatant hacks. And if they try to act legit, what's differentiating them from valve-made bots?

@mark-jf5ik

Жыл бұрын

I feel like classes like pyro, medic, and engineer can follow a really simple set of rules and get away with boting very easily

@nemplayer1776

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. The argument against overwatch is really bad in my opinion. It's very easy to tell if someone is cheating, especially if you're a more experienced player. And the main reason you'd even use it is to get rid of the spinbotting snipers, not a random expert bot that can't ruin your game.

@RedmondtJacks

Жыл бұрын

It was obvious because of pipes, you can’t miss them so perfectly, you’ll shoot it all around

@SurrogateActivities

Жыл бұрын

If anything instead of looking for signs of botting, looking for signs of human-ness always work. Things like little movements and reactions that are impossible for a bot to completely simulate

@RiveryJerald

Жыл бұрын

but OW is clearly only meant for competitive matches, not a 12v12 games.

Thank you for talking about the "ban Team Fortress 2 on Linux" solution. Always annoyed me that people didn't understand how easily it would be to switch the cheat to another OS.

@ggolden

Жыл бұрын

free wifi anywhere you go

@s.e.3765

Жыл бұрын

@@ggolden that theory is as lazy as "windows cheat makers" then

@JohnBread69

Жыл бұрын

Are we gonna ignore the elephant in the room and not mention that literally EVERY Valve and community server runs on Linux? That would be a massive shot in their own foot.

@sandertrumm7302

Жыл бұрын

@@JohnBread69 Not every server, Valve also maintains a Windows build of srcds (not to mention you can always just host a listen server) But yes, every Valve server and most community servers do use Linux

@zZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZza

Жыл бұрын

@@ggolden HOLD UP!!!

24:10 somebody saying that he wants to add overwatch in team fortress without giving the context is one of the most cursed things possible

@Deranfan

2 ай бұрын

A bunch of Wintons diving spinbotting snipers may be able to shut them down.

5:00 I think that we should ip ban them. If their family members are gonna wonder why they are banned too they can shit talk the person who was cheating so they can take responsibility for their actions

@masterkasidit2

Ай бұрын

I don't think they even have family

@Nelex5000

Ай бұрын

​@@masterkasidit2ofc not lol

In the "see if you can figure out who the cheater is" I was actually able to detect who the bot was. Not sure how. But either way, I think the problem isn't that "there are bots in the game". It's that "there are bots that are instantly and repeatedly making the game unplayable, ruining the game for users in the process." If there were bots in the game as bad as that demo, then I wouldn't have an issue with them because they're not disrupting my gameplay. At most, I'd probably offer to teach them if I saw them on my team. And a lack of response would probably indicate that they're either all good or a bot, which I wouldn't mind because it's casual.

@aplebian1731

Жыл бұрын

For me it was a combo of the excessively smooth mouse movement paired with the way it almost looked to be "intentionally" missing it's shots. It would very carefully and deliberately aim at the wrong location.

@folx2733

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that part boggles the mind. The game is fu*king unplayable because of aimbot snipers instantly killing everyone they see, not because of demos simulating noobs...

@sheacorduroy5565

Жыл бұрын

The reason you can probably tell the difference is because players 1 and 3 actually use their secondary weapons, something that bots will rarely ever do. Also the 2nd player was pre-aiming around the corner at a demo he wouldn’t be able to see.

@MicRouSn7

Жыл бұрын

@@sheacorduroy5565 I think it might have been the smoothness and consistent speed of the mouse movement.

@ArigatoPlays

Жыл бұрын

@@MicRouSn7 That's definitely what stood out most. Especially since the other 2 players had some very human looking mouse movement, for example the pistol tracking at 28:00 looks *exactly* how you would expect of a person physically moving their mouse rather than a program following a calculated path

I'm really thankful that you cleared up the misconception with Linux and people blaming all their bot problems on it. It has really gotten out of control and I wish people learned more that these solutions people come with can be bypassed over time

@0Ploxx

Жыл бұрын

Linux is a communist subversion meant to destroy America

@rdefsgtghgf3868

Жыл бұрын

His "clarification" is objectively incorrect lmfao.

@saltedjules_

Жыл бұрын

also I'm a Linux user and I do *not* want to have to dual boot with Windows or smth

@0Ploxx

Жыл бұрын

@@saltedjules_ then just use windows and stop being both an NPC and a hipster at the same time

@fizzdev

Жыл бұрын

@@0Ploxx there's so many reasons to pick Linux over Windows

Just remove sniper class. It has always been a broken class that needs to be removed. Just remove. Problem solved.

Honestly, I had no idea it was this complicated and I appreciate the explanation. Thank you.

The tf2 overwatch system would probably be pretty good if it wad explicitly made to catch obvious, game disrupting bots. Not cheating real people or single "realistic" bots, those can be vote kicked by the other players or countered by smart medic ubers, were talking spinning, gibus wearing, parties of bots that absolutely shutdown servers

@temkin9298

Жыл бұрын

First thing first is that tf2 is too chaotic, game has been played by too many people. So the best thing is a ban time limit for new joins, aim lock identifier, server side tracker identifier (tracking players across walls), softlock out(trapping bots to specific servers to overload their computer or make them idle). Second possibility is banning behavior repeating bots(since all bots are ai, they will control 100% nearly always). ban those with no kill attempts. Third is too much info being given so restrictions are a must (rendering all players instead of view&area filtered). Fourth is introduce (happy accidents ) for those with overcriting and overprecision . Let me be honest sniper mains with too dam much precision pisses me off. Do they use a aim guide?do they actually have skills? I don't care as long as they hit too many headshots, game becomes who can kill that maniac first. Fifth and last is basically making them lagg by overflowing the bots with info they don't need or causing them to overwork the hardware. Queuing bots can be spotted fairly easily and can be done away with doing the same thing but on reverse wasting their computing resources possibly making them unable to function.

@lolnt6103

Жыл бұрын

tf2 overwatch sounds wrong

"Just use community server" is not a valid option when there is just no good community replacement of valve server in your region. It's all either Hale server or 24/7 2fort, hightower and randomizer as well as orange.

@turmspitzewerk

Жыл бұрын

they were far better before valve butchered them. now the only server host that's able to compete with a vanilla experience is uncletopia. the remaining servers after MYM are just wacky alternative modes that were never competing for the same vanilla playerbase, so they weren't killed off. but being ejected out of the queue system doomed community servers to be a niche option compared to valve's official casual queue. we need to bring back community servers into the casual queue so they can live again. the only way this problem will be solved is if valve gives us the ability to do it ourselves.

@SnivyTries

Жыл бұрын

Not to mention I'm not a professional comp winning TF2 player so I can't compete in Uncletopia XD

@soupcan

Жыл бұрын

this was mentioned in the video

@itsjudeau5275

Жыл бұрын

Right? Normal Community servers are scarce if you don't live in NA

@redtheyiffer

Жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly, I actually dislike gmod a lot because it's 100% community servers, there's no one authority that standarizes how some gamemodes are meant to be and you get countless bloat addons you will never care about and they just add error models that look really ugly.

Great video, I especially liked the parts you show as examples to your points from in game.

The best solution i can think of is the Playerbase going scorched earth. Hopefully some white hats are willing to help track down these bot hosts. Think if it as this lovely quote. "One sword keeps another in it's sheathe." The threat of violence is often enough to prevent further escalation. Once the bot hosts find out you know where they live they will be very inclined to stop being literal human garbage. But that feels a bit extreme.

That's some high-quality insightful video about the current situation. Yeah, this isn't an easy task. But to be honest, Valve's acts against the problem so far were trivial. Pretty much banned f2p players' from playing the game properly, and added an annoying vote cooldown. I would like to stay positive but after seeing all those pathetic band-aids, it's hard to stay like that. But still, I hope they do something properly in the near future. Plus: It grosses me out every time I look into the cheaters. In order to fix the cheating issue entirely, I feel like the only way is to teach our newborns to have a proper morals.

@TopicalHat

Жыл бұрын

ok

@TopicalHat

Жыл бұрын

you do you

@MadJack1

Жыл бұрын

If we stop acting like we care about them, I wonder if they will stop? If a child is trying to annoy you but you act like you don't care they will more likely stop. Of course they could go the other direction in trying to annoy you more, leading to something like lag bots

@Sparkz1607

Жыл бұрын

Some people are born with a physical inability to feel empathy, have morals, or understand that other people matter. These people are called psychopaths. And they make up 99% of cheaters.

@MadJack1

Жыл бұрын

@@Sparkz1607 no, they are called jerks, people who are dumb enough to take their programming skills and use it to ruin peoples game and get people mad, which they get a kick out of. In some what of a way like stream snipers, but to the extreme.

I was actually able to tell suspect 2 was the bot, because despite missing their mark a ton, the aim felt artificial, and as if they were aiming based on hitscan rather than projectiles

@Qobp

Жыл бұрын

Also the very unnatural tracking they had on the bridge.

@Octanis0

Жыл бұрын

Suspect 2's aiming was very steady and it reacted robotically to enemies that appeared in their line of sight. Not really the best examples shounic could have used.

@GrachiPlays

Жыл бұрын

that's what i thought. i could tell without a doubt that suspect 2 was the bot and others were real pretty much immediately.

@driv3563

Жыл бұрын

I also instantly knew, the moving felt artificial, I don't even know how to describe it, it's uncanny, weird

@sznio

Жыл бұрын

For me the movement felt off, especially on the bridge. Real players don't walk like that. It feels like the bot is switching directions on a timer, giving the movement a cadence, while real players just switch their direction at any time.

the point isn't to completely stop bots, if we can get to the point where there are only a few bots playing the game and theya re not disrupting the match, then we would have reached an equilibrium

Something I don't think a lot of people realize/want to believe is; there is no singular solution, to solve it effectively we need a combination of several different solutions

The thing is, for every solution, there’s someone who already thought about it. So the only for having no cheater is if cheaters don’t see the point in chesting

@raandomplayer8589

Жыл бұрын

Remove drops. Game is still fun. Maybe more so

@fuuji111

Жыл бұрын

@@raandomplayer8589 maybe remove drops for free accounts

@bruh-cd3kf

Жыл бұрын

@@fuuji111 nah

@___-qj2lx

Жыл бұрын

@@fuuji111 please no

@asdawasda

Жыл бұрын

@@fuuji111 that would make the game pay to win

Just throwing a bit of my own opinion in on Overwatch. My main gripe with the system is the low tickrate of the demo that you are supposed to watch and create your judgement upon. The demoman was easy to recognize as a bot since the grenade launcher is a slow weapon and thus the lead on the enemies was easy to notice. But with the scout I had doubts since I had no way of telling if the scout was hitting or missing any of the shots, there's just too much information missing, I can't see the jitter of the mouse or the flicks performed.

@bernardonegri5416

Жыл бұрын

Plus, his video had no crosshair.

@snaek2594

Жыл бұрын

@@hoffer_moment obv there are ways to make it less obvious. that was a valve bot. It was made with no intention to hide the fact its a bot. Then again, it would be incredibly hard to code an AI to move and aim in a convincing manner. When I looked at the players, I didn't even necessarily pay attention to the crosshair placement. I was looking at the whole screen to see how the aiming was occurring. Which yeah made the bot stand out pretty well

@specttor5755

Жыл бұрын

Actually that scout is quite obvious. He doesn't jump as normal scouts will do since bot's navigation only tells them where they should jump to cross obstacles, and for a bad aim scout, he usually shoots around a target, too left or too right etc. , but this scout's bullet just simply follows the target's trait and keeps an fixed distance, which a bot will normally do. Besides, even newbies scouts are told to use jumping to dodge enemy's attack but bots don't know about this. My English is bad and hopefully you could understand what I typed :D

@vyor8837

Жыл бұрын

@@specttor5755 the scout was real though...

@he3004

Жыл бұрын

Scout was the easiest one, he bumped on the wall and missed all his shots, that's quite literally footage of me playing scout

the solution is making them think they are still playing when they are in fact kicked, they would not know as they don't even see the game happening, just some information that could be faked and sent to every TF2 client (i would not notice, the bots would scenario?)

@zizo5349

Жыл бұрын

Same issue as the 'invisible player right behind you' problem. In the way that bot makers would eventually realize the trick and reprogram their bots accordingly.

One small suggestion to help a little bit: allow contracts to be done and exp to be gained on community servers, somehow. Yes, I know, plug-ins will allow people to farm stuff, but currently people are incentivized to play casual and not community because of it.

@xvxluka222

5 ай бұрын

That's definitely true

17:38 Apparently there was a matchmaking cooldown system that used to function which was the in game report system. Valve ended up disabling it due to the fact that bots were also using it to votekick players and then spam the player with so many in game reports that many have ended up with matchmaking cooldowns.

That's the idea I thought of was the most useful, shadowbanning them, make the cheaters join servers that are for cheaters only, make them believe they're not banned, make them believe they're still annoying regular players, when in reality they're all gathered up in servers dedicated for them. They get sent to these servers after getting kicked out of casual servers for cheating way too many times, or with machine learning like Steam Trust

@presentfactory

Жыл бұрын

@@NutsackParachute Well that's combining two things. If the system monitors behaviors not some sort of manipulable vote then it'd still function fine. I think it's a good system because any algorithm based heuristic will inevitably classify some normal players as cheaters, so doing something like banning them as a result of that detection is always probably a bit extreme. Simply moving all the "cheaters" together into a server however makes it so false positives aren't punished as hardly, sure the user might join a game with all bots but at least they won't be banned, and maybe in time their score will improve by continuing to act like a normal player rather than doing things a bot would in such a situation. I wouldn't expect it to fix the problem in its entirety but to me it sounds like at least a decent thing to try to keep most cheaters out of games and improve the experience of most players.

@kingkaydengaming2786

Жыл бұрын

​@@NutsackParachute but like what if that makes it so shadow banned servers are full of humans lol

@kingkaydengaming2786

Жыл бұрын

@@NutsackParachute i was making a joke

@presentfactory

Жыл бұрын

@@NutsackParachute Well the perfect system you're looking for is impossible and everyone knows that or it'd be implemented in everything. That option is probably the best there is, bots would not "easily" be able to manipulate the system like that as it'd be a black box and normal players will play the game normally anyways which implicitly raises their chances of being in a normal game. All that is certainly better than the current state of things where bots just run rampant which is about as good as you can do for something automated that isn't going to require a ton of manpower imo.

@downward7296

Жыл бұрын

@@presentfactory The only reason it might even work is because the bots are mostly focused on killing people, most of the bots don't start votes on their own. If such a system was implemented the cheaters would then just make the bots more focused on kicking people.

Hey, really nice job on taking the time to actually analyse people's suggestions. It's very interesting, and clears things up.

Another solution: Bring back community based games. The days before where automatic match making did not exists, and where people would usually play on the same servers every day. Let the social network be the trust factor, and part of the match making algorithm.

@OGSumo

Жыл бұрын

There is no need to being them back, as they never were gone. We still have community servers and they are still very popular.

@BDNeon

Жыл бұрын

@@OGSumo There are several problems with them currently. 1: They are kinda hidden for the average player and by extension don't fill up easily as the less educated users simply remain unaware the server browser exists. 2: The game doesn't let you do some things on community servers, like make progress towards your Contracts to unlock some weapons/skins. 3: The bots are only held at bay on community servers when the folks running the server are keeping an eye on it and manually banning em. If no admin, they can be just as easily overrun by bots as official servers.

@colbyboucher6391

Жыл бұрын

You say that like Valve "got rid of" community servers

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

The problem with community servers is they still get bots that bypass everything, its hard to find a server of the gamemode you want (specially without being modded), some servers even ban you for not having html motd enabled and etc etc Which is why most ppl dont play there They are not hidden or anything, its just that mm system of casual is better and more reliable

@RatentaisouFGO

Жыл бұрын

There is a much bigger issue with this even if we ignore the bot problem. As much as I hate to admit it, as it stands right now, *community servers cannot fully replicate casual TF2.* There's just a lot of nuance when it comes to queueing in casual, and the majority of community servers trying to tap into this "casual experience" face several issues. 1. There can only be so many community servers. In this potential dystopia where casual queueing is no longer possible, if the community servers are full, people who wants to play casual would have no choice but to wait until someone disconnects. The one clear example I can think of this is Uncletopia. 2. Community servers has a much lesser pool of regular players. If these regulars are with high skill level, combined with the fact that there can only be so much community servers, newer players trying to get into community casual would be subjected to constant one-sided matches, leaving them no room to enter, even if they even managed to find a time when the servers aren't full. 3. Community casual servers are just inherently more serious than casual (if we only include official Valve normal gamemodes except CTF, especially 2fort servers). This means we get lesser "funny" times such as when the entire server forgets that they are on a payload match and starts doing a massive conga line, and instead we get everyone constantly tryharding.

Using a few of those ideas would raise the cost of cheating, I would be pretty surprised if cheaters are willing to pay over $30 each time.

@hampus1050

2 ай бұрын

That's what I'm thinking aswell. Adding captchas, hardware bans, phone verification and prime matchmaking alone would make it honestly expensive to host. At that point, ban any cheaters and bots that remain and they'll slowly die out.

i had no idea there was so much talk by valve on this topic, ive been conditioned to think that valve has been completely silent on the issue and since no media sources or anyone i know has been saying anything other than "valve is doing nothing" thats what i figured they were doing. it actually makes a lot more sense and is really nice to know that valve understands the issue and has been actively working to solve it for some time, hopefully they come to a working solution soon.

@Pikana

Жыл бұрын

CS:GO feels like their testing grounds for anti-cheat measures. Anything that seemed like a waste on CS:GO won't end up being wasted on TF2. At least I hope that's the case.

@Plain--Jane

Жыл бұрын

discourse about valve games is honestly fucking insufferable once you're informed

@steven.2602

Жыл бұрын

@@Plain--Jane Discourse about gaming in general is fucking insufferable once you're informed. There's examples of the Dunning-kruger effect in all walks of life, but for some reason its turned up to Eleven in videogame discussion.

@nuclearpotato4073

Жыл бұрын

@@steven.2602 It's especially egregious in source. Too many shmucks see shit like the load-bearing coconut on r/tf2 and are like "wow this game programmed so crappy! source engine terrible!" when they don't even know what makes it terrible.

@drillbitz2816

Жыл бұрын

@@nuclearpotato4073 the coconut is quite funny tho

I really like this video, its well made. Thanks for compiling all of the useful information someone might wonder about when thinking about why the hell bots are in the game. I also appreciated the positivity towards the end w/ machine learning and such, i think that is very fascinating as someone interested in it in general.

Very well-researched and well-put. I enjoyed how your review of the proposed solutions actually explain the reasons why a fix wouldn't work or be effective enough to warrant the effort. The issue is certainly much more complex than what it appears at first glance. And the avoidance of punishing legit players is integral to a game. One point you touched on but could have explained in more depth was how TF2 weapons function compared to other games. In CSGO, I believe every single weapon is hitscan while in TF2 projectiles are a whole different type entirely. This is common knowledge to most TF2 players, but perhaps not the ones that would be arguing for systems similar to CSGO. Overall, though, great job at breaking down the actual issue and putting it in a way we can understand. I also appreciate the effort you put into diagrams of how a proposed solution would work or showing the tools available to bypass almost any measure Valve could use.

24:11 the most cursed frame of the video :P

I disagree on the suggestion 4 issue, because player's computers receive a lot of information that isn't displayed to them during normal gameplay. Cloaked spies aren't visible to real players, but bots shoot them regularly. Fake cloaked spies would catch all bots that are willing to shoot cloaked spies. This doesn't remove the problem, but it at least softens it. Bots also shoot enemies that aren't in their line of sight, so creating fake characters in random locations behind players could be a good way to force bots to either tone their cheats down, or be caught. Again, not perfect, but it's worth implementing if it's technically feasible because it restricts how bad a given bot can be. On suggestion 8, I disagree entirely. If convictions aren't going up, and participation is skyrocketing, that would suggest that all the obvious cheaters are being banned. With how blatant *all* of the problematic bots are compared to the very subtle wallhacks that some CS:GO players use, convictions would be absolutely sweeping. The examples you gave are bogus, because it doesn't matter if they're bots or humans, because they aren't disruptive to the game. The point is to get rid of the bots that are cheating, not emulating reasonable gameplay. Sneakily running TF2 expert bots doesn't result in the shit we're worried about. Realistic bots are a bit weird, but don't ruin a day. The hoards of spinbots are what makes casual unplayable. Overwatch with an inexpensive prime matchmaking could cut blatant bots out almost entirely because they're just too expensive to run.

@Lunascaped

Жыл бұрын

Yea

@TheDanWolf

Жыл бұрын

I completely agree with every word in this comment

@dylannguyen7910

Жыл бұрын

Realistic Bots could mean they're really good, but just don't act like bots. If they made it indistinguishable from top competitive snipers, and the fact that they usually appear in groups, it could create a bigger problem in that since they're realistic, there would be many false negatives and teammates not banning the bots because they are realistic or worse banning teammates. All while the game still is unplayable since fighting 6 competitive snipers is just as challenging. And you still have to go through all that leg work. It could create bad actors that might use bots to automatically stop bots from getting banned if the overwatch system was implemented. - Valve

@MechaSandvich

Жыл бұрын

I also disagree with his statement that legal action would be ineffective. Sure your average human cheaters would pop up, but if valve were to say sue Omegatronic the bot hosters would be fucked.

@abcdefg-gd4wr

Жыл бұрын

I’ve accidentally killed cloaked spies before. Would I be banned in that scenario?

As far as i'm aware, this is one of the most researched and well informed videos regarding the trial and errors and "what if"s of the bot situation. There are a lot of channels who tend to harp on the same basic talking points that have been beat into the ground the last ≈2 years. Feels like everything has come to a stalemate. Easily understandable video for those new to tf2 or non tech savvy, but brief enough to not be boring.

why don't they just block users running the game in text mode? no real player is playing via command prompt

Combining a few of these would definitely be beneficial. Overwatch in particular caught my attention, as it would enforce so many restrictions on how bots behave (Though full disclosure, I've never really played CS:GO, so I don't know what the system is like over there). No more spinbotting, no more chat spam, be it slurs, insults, advertisements, or otherwise, and bot owners would have to make measures to ensure their bots look less suspicious. If some sniper with no paid cosmetics is shooting someone's head the instant it becomes visible one too many times, that's not going to look legitimate. I know there are bots with cosmetics, and this would hurt really skilled free-to-plays, but there are ways to work around these issues without hurting anybody real. Also if we could get some irl-but-not-illegal justice against the bot hosts and/or operators, that would be appreciated. I can't recall much useful information, but I remember watching a YT video a few years ago about a specific bot host (and maybe a Tacobot.tf member as well?) getting exposed for pedophilia. Reporting him to the police, IF he hasn't been already, would make for delicious revenge. I'd share more information if I remembered it.

@34marmarmar

Жыл бұрын

I knew tacobot ppl were sad, but damn

Valve has very few employees compared to other companies, but that is a self-inflicted problem. They have enough money to hire more employees, and enough creed in the industry to attract the talented ones, but they refuse to hire employees for specific games or projects. They have a famous work culture where employees are allowed to work on any project they want, which has its pros and cons. Because of this, many of their employees just work on projects other than TF2, and they won't hire someone just for TF2. I don't believe that the treadmill problem would last forever. As long as you're not regularly adding new features to a software, then there is only a finite number of exploits, which will get harder and harder for hackers to find. Every other regularly updated software has their exploits fixed, hardening them over time. Is there something actually stopping people from overrunning CSGO like TF2 has? Are CSGO's solutions better, or has no one just bothered launching a massive bot campaign against it, so there's only a small amount of bots? Also, if you can't confidently comment on Trust Factor and Vacnet since Valve is secretive, then you can't know whether they actually *would* be workable solutions that Valve just refuses to implement because they don't care or because TF2 doesn't make enough money. Overwatch's conviction rate didn't go up past a particular point, but you didn't explain why. Because there's a finite number of cheaters, did this mean that the participants were simply managing to find every cheater in Overwatch, or were there still cheaters that either didn't get reported or managed to get past Overwatch? Bots are incredibly obvious, and are a problem because they massively disrupt the game. If bots were to attempt to disguise themselves as humans, such as by playing Demo and missing lots of shots like suspect #2, then they're no longer disrupting the game. Even if you didn't solve the problem of finding all the bots to get rid of them, then you will have at least solved the problem of bots disrupting the game. Using individual examples of cheating after cheatmakers were sued only proves that not every single instance of cheating was prevented by suing. It would be more meaningful if we could know if the total amount of cheating actually decreased after a cheatmaker was sued, but that data might not be publicly available. If it did meaningfully reduce the amount of cheating, then it would still be worth it.

@NA-uz7co

Жыл бұрын

There is a big problem that take down your hole argument, more workers dosent mean more work when it come to software development. So it dosent mean anything if valve has 20, 200, 2.000, 20.000 or more workers, as there is a cap of work a team can get done, every team has they way to develop a solution. Just because valve has 350 workers it dosent mean they cant do the same job or better than a team with 20.000 workers The treadmill problem never ends, there will be exploits forever, because every little thing you change can make a new error or bring others back, you dont need to add a new feature to make a bug, with just change 1 line of code from 0 to 1 that can breake something About valve not using workable solutions, your comment makes no sense, why valve would let the player have a bad experience and lost customers and money? It dosent make sense at all, they have no reason to let the games die and lose money, they are a company About overwatch, even if they catch all the cheater they where never gone, so there is no solution, as you can make bot and they will be ban maybe in 1 day or 1 year because there are so many of them You dont need bots to just cheat to disrupt the game, they can make ra**** comments, kickvote players, etc About sue the cheat makers, as long there is a cheat there will be more pepole cheating so it dosent matter if cheaters go down for 1 day of the next one there are 2 new o 300 new cheats I edit this comment to reply every point in a easy way for me, so i could go point by point and making the answer

@qualityarsenic3922

Жыл бұрын

@@NA-uz7co "There will be exploits forever" is an inaccurate statement. TF2 is a game where everything can be fixed, it's just a matter of finding the exploits and having a solution. There are not infinite exploits. It's absolutely finite.

@NA-uz7co

Жыл бұрын

@@qualityarsenic3922 you didint read my comment at all, exploits are infite as you can broke the code or pepole can bypass them

@ictoan1880

Жыл бұрын

@@qualityarsenic3922 exploits are very much infinite, because every time they push an update it risks adding exploits. Every fixed exploit is a chance of another being introduced, that's why games like CSGO are still receiving fixes after 10 years of active development.

@GigasGMX

Жыл бұрын

@Ictoan That only applies to programs that are adding features. TF2 isn’t. Therefore, it is at least theoretically possible to close all the meaningful exploits.

1st interim solution: “Making the most out of community servers” Me living in eastern asia: “what community servers….”

This is a great video even for those unaware of Team Fortress 2 or games in general. It was a great watch altogether, and all the solutions / quick-fixes were presented in a good way, explained well, and demonstrated what could go well and what could go wrong. I'd love to watch more videos like this, and they don't need to be TF2-related either. Most people just end having the thought that "Valve makes too much money from crates so they should fix the bot problem already", but this was presented in a complete logical side without any sort of bias and / or unrelated factors. The bot situation does affect money revenue, definitely, and keeps new players away from playing the game. I myself want to buy something from the store (cheaper than in metal, at least in my currency), which I haven't done yet due to bots showing up in the official Versus Saxton Hale. Lastly, some of the quick-fixes mentioned in the video would be too much of a burden for regular players. A lot of players were very against Overwatch 2's requirement of a phone number. If we added so many layers just to queue up for Casual Mode, then it would be basically a desert town, either players not wanting to do so many things before being able to just play a game, or being against of sharing so many personal details like phone numbers, ID documents and stuff. And, with casual servers being a desert town, bots would migrate to the most popular community servers instead, and the whole situation wouldn't be resolved.

Having a workforce of only 360 employees in a large gaming corporation is literally something else. It really makes sense in the scheme of things.

@ryjelsum

Жыл бұрын

yeah and in valve they are spread very thin. aside from every game they still actively update which needs some kind of team.. some of them are going to be on steam itself, a portion the last 10 years are on linux software and gaming hardware development. so yeah that's why their games take so damn long

@hedgehog3180

Жыл бұрын

It strikes me as odd though that they don't expand, like I really doubt they don't have the money and to some degree this insistance on using AI seems like a case of classic Silicon Valley refusal to do anything that would even slightly lower profits. For some issues you do just need people, I mean I really doubt that Ubisoft makes about 15x more than Valve when Valve owns the single largest gaming store so I don't see why they can't scale up their team to what's needed.

@meem6154

Жыл бұрын

@@hedgehog3180 because they don’t have a regulated workforce. Imagine having 360 workers switching constantly on their focus, now imagine 1,000 of that or 1,400, well disorder causes chaos and it would be difficult to get anyone.

Suggestion 4 has already been done by a minecraft server called Hypixel. What they do is, If a player is doing too good, They will spawn in a bot that will spin around the player for a short amount of time. This works really well because players using hacks like aimbot or killaura will immediatly try to kill the bot, usually resulting in them getting banned.

@noah4822

Жыл бұрын

code the bot not to shoot at anything spinning around the bot in a steady pace

@s--b

Жыл бұрын

@@noah4822 "just code lol"

@noah4822

Жыл бұрын

@@s--b how do you think the bot got made? monkey and a typewriter?

@s--b

Жыл бұрын

@@noah4822 why dont they just code the invisible fake player to not spin at a steady pace

@mark-jf5ik

Жыл бұрын

Its nice to a see a comment actually have a tangible reference for once, I think this is an actual implementation that wouldn’t hurt to see its effectiveness

they should be fixing it anyways. I don't care how hard it is. literally no other game has this problem.

@shdy9498

Ай бұрын

I can think of a few games that have similar bot problems (hearthstone is a good one), but I agree that no game as popular as TF2 is should be this bad. It is insane how far they've let it go, despite the revenue it brings in.

Just wanted to say, thank you for puttinf in so much time and research go make this video

With what I heard, Escape from Tarkov had an anti cheat system putting enemy hitboxes around random spots and hiding high tier items in unobtainable spots for normal players. If a cheater would hit such hitboxes or loot those unobtainable items, their accounts would get flagged as cheaters and ultimately get banned. It supposedly worked quite well until the cheat makers figured it out.

@boldCactuslad

Жыл бұрын

it works until it doesn't, then you as the dev either change it up a bit or give up. persistence makes the cheaters quit, remember, devs get paid for this

@andrehashimoto8056

Жыл бұрын

@@boldCactuslad some Cheaters are the kind who only do that shit to see the Circus catch fire or be a BOTHER to the Paid devs

@LightningbrotherG

Жыл бұрын

All that dev time has now been functionally wasted, since you need to dedicate more time to come up with a new solution. i.e. the treadmill

@Scatmanseth

Жыл бұрын

@@boldCactuslad at a certain point, but it also makes them more invested in circumventing it. The existence of channels like DanielS and BubGames proves this.

@ZeldagigafanMatthew

Жыл бұрын

More proof that cheats are an arms race.

When I saw that the video was 40 minutes long, I expected a less formal rant type of video that wasn’t as cleanly edited as your other videos. The fact that this video has the same level of polish as your other videos is insane. I can’t imagine the amount of time it took to make this. Great job man.

I’m a very big fan of the community server hub idea, mostly because I want actual normal servers to run my mods on instead of only on Uncletopia.

This is the best breakdown on how difficult it is to battle cheaters in online games I have ever seen. Thank you!

I'm really glad you made this video. As a coder, with all the people talking about the bot problem in TF2 and how Valve isn't doing enough to solve it, I couldn't help but think that it was probably a more complex situation than people perceive it to be. It's good to know that I was right, lol.

@gonturan0585

Жыл бұрын

dude is that private riding a "lunacorn"? you have good taste in profile pictures

@Flamme-Sanabi

Жыл бұрын

That's why people who say "Add captcha" annoy me.

@realdragon

Жыл бұрын

I've seen someone suggesting to remove TF2 from Linux, like dude people on Windows still cheat and it's the largest OS

@Jasiuc330

Жыл бұрын

@@realdragon Not to mention a lot of comunity servers are on linux

@Nzg41

Жыл бұрын

It was more the lack of acnilegement till recently that got me,as when this started with mic spam bots valve only did anything once it hit mainstream articles…just hurts being ignored is all

Suing the people who initially created the bot codes in the first place is a great way to stop this shit. The hard part, is finding out WHO those people are.

@Nzg41

Жыл бұрын

I have that head cannon that gman is values interdimension lawyer,imgine reciving a c&d from him

@SuperCaitball

Жыл бұрын

There's a part of the video specifically for your comment. It doesn't bloody work.

@Temmoie

Жыл бұрын

We have laws that will get people who illegally sell guns and drugs trialed and jailed, but guess what, these crimes are still being committed anyway. What makes you think suing bot makers will work when there are more of them?

@Nzg41

Жыл бұрын

@@Temmoie make an example maybe if valve brings em to court? Might scare the others if they see consequences

honestly trust factor and overwatch seems to be the most affective and using both could be really useful also sueing hackers makes a lot of money that can also encourage valve to fight it more or invest that money into tf2 and fighting bots.

This is a great video to watch whenever I'm starting to think human beings aren't so bad and I'm getting sick of that.

Community servers are also a really bad solution. I could go into a wall of text as to why, but I think this quote says it best: "Uncle Dane shouldn't have to carry the entire community on his back"

@mark030a

Жыл бұрын

@@szymex8341 Not to mention that most of these "popular" servers are filled to the ass with mods and all kinds of shit. It's almost imossible to consistently find vanilla servers filled with decent amount of players. *And then comes the arguement of "why play vanilla" which, sigh, don't even get me started on that*

@Ultra289

Жыл бұрын

Community servers in all source games are just stupid Either too modded, or too stupid rules or too hard to find something good and for new players it will be a nightmare to keep up

@dieusama1798

Жыл бұрын

@@Ultra289 Before Gun Mettle everything TF2 was about community servers and it was great and fonctional . . .

@bernardonegri5416

Жыл бұрын

Community servers doesn't mean just Uncletopia. I don't know about you, but I can find vanilla community servers by going to the server browser, excluding the tags "10x,10,trade,norespawntime,mvm,mge", putting "max players" to 24, and checking "not full", "has users playing" and "is not password protected"

@nts0n

Жыл бұрын

@@bernardonegri5416 Yes, but your average joe schmoe who only wants to play casual without bots doesn't KNOW that. That's the problem.

It might help to reduce the scope of the issue, focus on "players" that play sniper exclusively, could there be demoman and scout bots? Sure, but they would be nowhere near as annoying as sniper ones

@d4s0n282

Жыл бұрын

that issue has 1 thing, what about really amazing players for those classes, there is a pretty good chance they get banned imo

@SnrubSource

Жыл бұрын

They should increase the sniper instakill delay, it’s insane even with real players

@destroything

Жыл бұрын

@@d4s0n282 They'll be forced to switch mains. Maybe a good thing

@jacobgord

Жыл бұрын

I have seen force of nature scout bots, they are scary at close range but not nearly as scary as sniper bots at any range. Though sense the scout force of nature bots are perfect with there shots if you survive you go flying which is abit funny.

@0Ploxx

Жыл бұрын

Remove headshots

The fact that anyone would even think of removing Linux support would hurt so much

Just delete the sniper class. No sniper class means no instant death from headshots, and therefore cheaters will give up.

I noticed that the bot had a more snappy and “lock”y camera motion when ever it found a target. It would just pin the camera down on that target.

@tiqosc1809

Жыл бұрын

They can easily just interpolation the turn

I think you are discounting how adding the cost of making a new account/paying for captcha solving utilities. Considering how most of the bots are fairly low cost to operate right now, just increasing the cost to maintain these bots would be a fairly effective deterant. Also, the problem with bots isn't that they bots, it's that they are cheaters. If people wanted to run what are essentially expert bots in matchmaking that's not that bad, since they still operate within normal tf2 gameplay.

Idea to stop the cheaters When a computer is found to be cheating TF2 will just overheat to such an extent that it just explodes

@hakrsakr

Жыл бұрын

This sounds dumb on the surface but is honestly one of the better ideas I've heard. Purposely strain the hardware to the limit. Or trick it into mining bitcoin or something lol

@taibasarovadil

11 ай бұрын

If tf2 was developed by Aperture Science:

@thesaltgod

11 ай бұрын

I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news, but not only can that lead into trouble for Valve (especially for false positives), but virtual machines can entirely ignore this problem.

@bigpvzfan42069

11 ай бұрын

@@thesaltgod make the virtual machine program corrupt, to the point it has to be deleted by the original computer host

@thesaltgod

11 ай бұрын

@@bigpvzfan42069 Virtual machines are practically indistinguishable from a regular operating system, as they're meant to be. You really can't specifically have a different effect for virtual machines, and even if you could, it would again put Valve into legal trouble since you can't just make video games that destroy people's systems, *especially* at the risk of false positives.

interesting video mate! well done! Gives one a deeper understanding on why it is so hard to "just ban the cheaters"

Not even 4 minutes in and you mention a letter written to Valve from the got dam Washington State Gambling Comission? This is gonna be a good video

I like the fact that the people who’re trying to destroy tf2 can’t even do it, due to how many people keeping the game alive

@crack4184

Жыл бұрын

1. Bots are using TF2 as a playground to make better bots + there's no punishment for them to do so anyway. 2. Community keeps it alive because TF2 is hip, trending and free. There's a lot of new players, which is good, but lots of veterans gave up on it, lowering the standards of the community since most players only knew Jungle Inferno and nothing else.

@DzekoZacher

11 ай бұрын

@@crack4184 and Jungle Inferno was years ago too lol

@momiji_number1daughterwife

9 ай бұрын

some seem to be doing it so they can sell bot immunity, but if you're scummy enough to make money like that you're also probably scummy enough to just scam anyone who actually comes looking for immunity

I think community servers can be implemented in valve's matchmaking system. Example: In left 4 dead 2 when you are in a lobby, you can select if you want to play on an official server (server run by valve) or you want an unnoficial server (community), i have joined servers running sourcemod using the unnoficial server option.

@ZafkielDoesStuff

Жыл бұрын

Oh. You mean like what Quickplay was?

AI cheating detection algorithms could work. But if somebody’s play style resembles that of a bot they could get false banned.