Both of these men are legends.

@garuxp1402

Жыл бұрын

Yeah and I feel grateful we have them alive today

@Frazer247

Жыл бұрын

Jordan Peterson believes in the Bible as the true words of God. I don't consider him a legend.

@jamessaltlife

Жыл бұрын

@@Frazer247 No-one is perfect, but he’s helped thousands of people like myself better themselves and escape depression, so I do :)

@Jervisdude

Жыл бұрын

Peterson looks like a defeated hobo. In fact I think he had a nervous breakdown if I’m not mistaken.

@SumriseHD

3 ай бұрын

@@Jervisdude Up yours, woke moralist! We'll see who cancels who!

This really changed my perspective on the “prisoner of my thoughts” fallacy. I’m now going to treat myself like I’d treat a friend. Enlightening

@mementomori5374

Жыл бұрын

I always did that be your own best friend put yourself on the first place you will naturally not care what other people think of you

@_xiper

Ай бұрын

What is this fallacy you are referring to? Can't find anything through Google.

@TheStruggler101

Ай бұрын

​​@@_xiper Meaning the common conditioning that the self, the me, the thinker, the observer etc, is something separate or different from the rest of the content of conciousness. It is a fallacy, an illusion. The thinker is not different from thought, the thinker is the thought.. thought has created the thinker.

@adamcat4d

Ай бұрын

@@_xiper my reading is that we believe our thoughts are us, our lives - but they are not - most thoughts are automatic, default mode generated by our neural programming - we can dis identify with the narrative that is our thoughts - stop believing the thoughts.....

@agnosticevolutionist3567

Ай бұрын

Remind yourself of that ………..in psychosis

I respect the two for still willing to engage in important subjects despite their disagreements in certain topics

@PaulJackino

Ай бұрын

Well... it's advantageous to do so.

@Jacob-Vivimord

16 күн бұрын

I think there's actually a subtle disagreement between them here, or at least Jordan isn't quite grokking it. He keeps thinking of it in terms of the method mentioned at the end, of reshaping existing thoughts by noticing negative thoughts, rather than letting go of the whole prospect of identification with thought in the first place.

Knowing nothing about the context of this or the original discussion, JP popping up was literally a jump scare.

The dry delivery of the gum drops line had me giggle out loud a bit.😂

The thing that Sam Harris talks about around 8:30 : You would sound insane if your thougths were on a loudspeaker. You can actually read Ulysses and Finnegans Wake. Joyce used this as a novel novel technique called stream of consciousness. That is exactly what they are talking about...

@AdamSumner-tb9uu

Ай бұрын

Have you ever actually tried to read that trash?

@petsol

Ай бұрын

@@AdamSumner-tb9uu Ulysses is no trash, but Finnegans Wake is not for my taste...

Sam Harris: 'If every thought that we had was externalized on a loudspeaker , every normal person would sound insane'.

Marcus Aurelius Antonius - "Treat the next thought with care so that nothing irrational creeps in" Seneca - “What progress, you ask, have I made? I have begun to be a friend to myself.”" This kind of insight existed thousands of years ago... it just got replaced...

@memento_mori6019

Ай бұрын

Replaced? I just read a KZread comment quoting some of its original authors and Meditations has been available in English print since the 1600s?

@ashwin_rds11

26 күн бұрын

buddhist / hindu teachings of meditation and wisdom of mind also existed around 2000 BC even earlier, written in many forms. and the stoics, martial arts and taoism also mentions this along with many other wise philosphies. I do whcih more verbal credit were given to the ancient wisdoms that already taught all these insights (such as Gautama Buddha, the human buddha from india who started buddhism), but maybe in the full videos they give credit. But yeah, buddhsim, hinduism and taoism and stoicsism and all these other wise philosphies talk abotu the same thing

to control experience, sweet point

Hat to crack up a bit when JP popped up suddenly lol Good share though, TY

As Peterson suggests, I don't think recursive self-referential thoughts are accounted for by different brain regions "communicating" with each other to ultimately move a behavior towards a goal. "Well, here I am." "What did I have for lunch again?" "I like this song." I think recursive thinking functions to either bootstrap or help corroborate a perspectival or social sense of self. Whether or not that function also helps bring about behavior that reaches a goal might be only incidental.

@hewf3zleepy

Жыл бұрын

Reminding yourself that life is actually happening in this very moment, is productive in order to decouple from our deceiving evolutionary instincts of getting a dopamine kick by looking back with nostalgia or forward with unrealistic excitement and expectations. Suffering resides in these two states of mind.

@scorps192

Ай бұрын

Itchy bummis holis

I have to be honest. I used be really into this mindset that you could come to a good pace in your life just but fixing your mind and how you process things but all the biggest changes in my well-being and daily mood were the result of real changes in my external environment and life. Getting over a medical problem I thought would be permanent and spending more time with friends who love me as opposed to being socially isolated. I’m not saying having a better mindset and learning to have a healthier relationship to your thought and conscious experience can’t be invaluable, just that you really shouldn’t neglect other parts of your life to feel better let alone think others can either. Please love yourself and everyone else :)

@ataraxia7439

Жыл бұрын

Like being able to let go and not always trying to fix things is really important but I don’t think it alone would be satisfying for most people.

@nanaharritsjrgensen5025

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree! I don't agree with the notion of "nothing outside of you can make you happy"....and that it's all about your mind and your thoughts. I have lived that way and it sure helped when I was stressed and anxious, but I don't find it to be the way to the good life...

@counterculture10

2 ай бұрын

In the philosophy that Sam is espousing, there's no real distinction between internal and external. They're two sides of the same coin. And in the Buddhist tradition, the Middle Way (i.e. balance) is the most prudent path.

@The_Mystical_Man

Ай бұрын

It's all mind, including your external environment, because your outer life reflects your inner life. So, in the final analysis, it does all come down to the quality of your mind.

@ataraxia7439

Ай бұрын

@@counterculture10 I think there are context where the distinction is important though.

It's my parent self telling my child self to get a drink. Sometimes there is a push pull over decision-making. The subconscious= childhood experiences, past Consciousness-parent self, adult, present moment. The war within, the self doubt insecurities, and shame dialog in the mind is merely programed from childhood external influences. Those we attached to as our identity before having the cognitive ability to question.

It sounds as Sam is focusing here on the distinction between observation of the input vs. processing the input. But then he goes deeper one layer, he distinguishes input from observation of the input, then certain levels of observation... one being purely capturing the sensation (almost as if you could look at your hand but only chose to recognize base sensation of the colour and shape without giving it a meaning of any kind), then the next one is assigning the meaning of the sensation without extrapolating the purpose and context of the sensation. So he is breaking it down temporally. He is trying to observe himself and all the processes happening in his head, searching for the root if intent, out of anything contextualized. In fact, any recognition of context would push him out of the observing state, and he would have to observe what caused him to contextualize.

I've been following Sam since 2014, and the notion of non-identification with thought is something I heard before early on. It took me a while to understand it, and in one of my meditation sessions I had a glimpse of that tiny space between my consciousness and thoughts that are arising. It's a profound experience, but it's not a perennial experience.

@Fullyautomagic

2 жыл бұрын

I still have never experienced it

@mikerayco

2 жыл бұрын

@@Fullyautomagic I am not sure what to advise people about it. But I just use the waking up app by Sam and follow the instructions. I also listen to a lot of conversations in the app which gives me insight into my experience. My awareness during a meditation session is better when I am relaxed and not anticipating the meditation session to end to do other things, also I noticed that the noise in my mind gets amplified when I have coffee before meditation. So now I drink coffee at least after my morning meditation.

@Joeyblannn

2 жыл бұрын

it's definitely not perennial but i think with practice it will slowly creep into your life more and more until you're in that state for a fair amount of time. but of course, everyone will relapse from time to time.

@David_Michael_Perez

2 жыл бұрын

@@Joeyblannn yes I agree that non-identification with thought will can never be perfect and constant or perennial, but it can be developed and strengthened. I think that it is the key to life and that in the state of true mindfulness then your life problems are solved.

@Joeyblannn

2 жыл бұрын

@@David_Michael_Perez we are extremely lucky people to have grasped this concept TBH. i hope everyone else does as well because sheesh this reduces so much unecessary suffering. Have a great life brother!

Where can we find the full version of this?

@saisiddhartha5375

2 жыл бұрын

On Jordan yt channel

Since I was a kid, probably 1 or two weeks of age, I used to ask my parents: ``mom and dad, when you say ``I have to think about myself`` ... who is ``I``? Who is talking? Who is the ``owner of the self``?``

@reubenwizard

Ай бұрын

😂

In my early formative years (16-25), I took a fair amount of hallucinogens. LSD, Mushrooms, Mesc, X (MDMA). No preconceived notions. No expectations except to have fun. What it did was change my perspective on life. The breaking of the Ego. The third eye. Understanding thoughts and emotions intellectually. If you can strip everyday life away for a short period of time and not be burdened by it, and with an open mind, there is a lot of self discovery to be had. You can do it without the hallucinogens, but that's a long term endeavor and not as much fun.

@vettie

Ай бұрын

Right on, brother

@lukedmoss

Ай бұрын

Was it the drug or your intention? It's as if it brings out what was in us and out there all along. Curiously, like a psychological amplifier, it provides excess where there was (relative) lack.

@cozyslor

Ай бұрын

@@lukedmoss I think you meant "access". And yes, I think it opens a gateway. It still "changed my perspective", but didn't create it.

Many similar insights were also written in ancient buddhist / hindu philosophies from around 2000 BC and even before. along with other ancient wisdoms from greece, india, china etc. Ancient problems of mind had ancient soloutions. It is good that the benifit of meditation is finally being realised in the mainstream again, after being supressed for a long time during the era of british-empire / colonialism

Right, dissolving the false "I" into the ocean of Pure Consciousness is a great asset. To get there, no problem. Access "Mahamritunjaya mantra - Sacred Sounds Choir" and listen to it for 5 min per day for at least two weeks. Eventually you will tap into the realm of Sat-Chit-Ananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss) that transcends the mind. In due time with more practice (whatever methods you choose), the false "I" vanishes, dissolving into the infinite Absolute Ocean of Consciousness "In-Itself": The entire universe is that Essence. The Realization of that is an ongoing process, usually..

Fascinating

the pathways are static, motility is dynamic, enlightment is creative,,, internal guru Tilopa to Naropa

Gold

@slimdilly_

2 жыл бұрын

literally

great post

Ya…interruptions were not helpful

my sincere question for Sam Haris: "would a person with trained mindfulness fare better when dimentia finally arrive? would he still have even a pinch of mindfulness left to be aware that his mind is probably in dimentia?"

@slimdilly_

2 жыл бұрын

interesting

@joshboston2323

2 жыл бұрын

EK Lim--I believe there are some studies that show that mindfulness has some effect on anxiety in patients with dementia. However if the dementia is very far developed, I am afraid that not much can be done :(. Quite a terrible illness.

@eklim2034

2 жыл бұрын

@@joshboston2323 I agree. Never heard of any Olympic level meditator successfully fighting off dimentia

@zibtihaj3213

2 жыл бұрын

@@eklim2034 are the high level mediators that have dimentia ?

@eklim2034

2 жыл бұрын

@@zibtihaj3213 eventually many will

His vocal tone is so influential and likeable. He would make it far in politics , and I feel like he wouldnt play the woke bs like his party has been doing lately. I'd vote for him as long as he continues to not hold punches and keeps saying what he thinks and not giving a damn about the reaction of little baby liberal Kamala worshipers .

@jmc5335

2 жыл бұрын

His kind of politics has taken a kicking across the world since 2008. Hence, his inability to comprehend what led to the election of Trump

@barometerbanner212

Ай бұрын

Little baby conservatice @RossJWick will be crying tears for decades when the life-long con-man and civally liable sexual-predator DJT is locked up in prison for life and MAGA covlapses back into the morass of fascistic confusion it emerged from. MAGA are the real snowflakes----such babies that they cannot believe or accept that their loser in chief lost an election, such they are willing to commit violence to assert their wills. Just look at JP---crying all the time, too.

@-Swamp_Donkey-

22 күн бұрын

He’s a Jew, dude.

The key takeaway is that there is no observer (self) that is observing thought. Because the observer is itself a thought. Therefore you are not a John Doe who has to pay his bills, John Doe is a thought in a brain. And yes its not your brain because, well... there is no you behind the brain, its all inside it and its nothing more than a thought/image/memory.

Ben Aflec, lol 😆

Watching these two interplay is like the marriage of religion (JP) and spirituality (SH)

i didnt know ben stiller had a twin

They are discussing what Mestre Eckart found out in the 13th century, and Eckart Tolle has revived in his book The power of now!

His secret of life is Orange Man Bad.

1:23

It’s really great to see these two get along and coordinate their wisdom.

The most astonishing thing in this clip is that JBP interrupted him only 2 times.

9:38

Your amazing 👏 your soooooo amazing 👏 your so amazing 👏 your so amazing 👏

Truly is the secret. Sam's explanation is so good here, but this will remain a secret to those who haven't experienced what he's referring to. There is no name for it. Awareness itself, not awareness of something, is the best way to state it for me.

Omg my brain is crashed

Where is the rest of the interview? He was in the middle of an explanation and just getting the second solution. I guess it was just recognizing that the thoughts are not you.. but still would have liked to have heard the rest.

@slimdilly_

Жыл бұрын

"Questioning Sam Harris | Sam Harris | The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast S4: E81"

this whole explanation is essentially Nietzsche’s Freud and Schopenhauer’s idea

I once talked to myself, I'll never try THAT again ........

a practiced meditator doesn't notice the body, it vanishes. Same with thought both on and off the cushion.

Pain is something that can easily be dismissed in the abstract, harder to dismiss in the moment.

@matty96465

Ай бұрын

100%

@HenryItzNiine

Ай бұрын

I agree, especially profound suffering. And I don't think Harris, or any serious teacher of mindfulness would say this can be avoided in life. But ultimately, I think meditation can be a tool to help mitigate it, even in the moment.

@karol1

14 күн бұрын

Pain can’t be dismissed In the moment, but you can dismiss all the unnecessary suffering that comes with it. When you have a heartburn you can either accept and observe the painful sensation or spiral into panic worrying about perceived heart attack. Same with social interactions where you tell yourself stories that aren’t necessarily true

The reason Peterson interrupts alot is because he's relating Sam's points to his own experience in order to incorporate them into his belief-structure. It merely appears to be rude superficially. And I think I can speak for Sam when saying that he didn't perceive it to be rude but rather amusing in a way. Unless of course Sam's thoughts tell him otherwise 😁🙏

isn't he just basically saying don'[t overthink it?

7:55 What the fuck was that interjection? xD

@C_CREATURE_

Ай бұрын

He means a lot of your inner thoughts are prioritized by the self and ego, but the ego can be influenced in a society, where everyone is connected through the zeitgeist. In other words, how do you know what is rational? You need society and other people as audience and judges for you to determine what is rational.

My thoughts turned into external voices, it has helped me identify them as not me. It helps.

@kkozzy

Жыл бұрын

That's not good, then you sound crazy.

@backfru

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, dude that's schizophrenia

Exactly... Something about have two ears and one mouth😊

We are blessed we have this men

“All thoughts are all lies All the time” Jesse Lee Peterson lol

It seems that there is no-one who does this better than Harris. Where philosophy, neuroscience and intense meditative practice meet in an out-spoken clear thinker.

Clever dudes. That was great

I keep having to remind myself that we are doing life. Hope you all succeed

Imagine that

The wisdom of Buddhist philosophies of impermanence and theory of mind versus the abandoned ideas of Carl Jung

@Fullyautomagic

2 жыл бұрын

Abandoned ideas of Carl jung?

@tomdebevoise

2 жыл бұрын

@@Fullyautomagic Jung is really an historical footnote in the development of psychotherapy. Most of his ideas, while entertaining, are not scientific, not falsifiable. Archetypes is an example. These ideas are little better than astrology, which Jung also liked. JP has made a living repackaging Jung into conservative and Christian apologetics.

@sxsmith44

6 күн бұрын

WTFAY. Clueless?

Dialled you best him there and he didn’t even realize

Oh my word,the interruptions 🤦🏾‍♀️ let the man speak.

“Yeah, yeah” = absolutely not

Never expected Ben Stiller to be so wise!

@PolishBehemoth

Ай бұрын

...

Why do Sam's headphone cords gotta be twisted

Vipassana!

Now if he can only figure out how to admit a mistake.

Be still and know God

Trying to focus on what Harris is saying is hard when Peterson keeps interrupting him.

Sam Harris is a litmus test to identify midwits.

Ekhart Tolle explained way better in his book A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose

“Totalitarian spirit of rationality that proclivity” @7:55 Jordan’s word salad again on par with Chopra!. Why can’t he talk in plain English.

I put my hand on the stooooove… and nothing hurts anymore, I feel kinda freeeeeeeeeee

Pain and suffering are the only things that are real in this illusion ,the rest is down a wonky perception based on a given state of mind ,man is like a river ,everything flows

Thought isn’t about anything explains Peter Brown. These men are obsessed with thought, just look at them.

It's interesting that your conscience thoughts only speak to you in the languages you know. It's clear that your thoughts are cultural uploads to your brains database. There are different experiences of consciousness, because we are not a monolith of culture.

Podcasts that talk about the problem 99% of the time with 1% solutions are getting old. He gets to the solution at the end saying there’s two levels and the 2nd gets cut off. Weak!

Benzo Daddy is looking grizzled

… paraphrasing Goenka

"Just repeat smart ideas on internet and hate on muslims" then make money

With or without mushrooms?

@KB-ur4nk

23 күн бұрын

Yes

thinkingness is overrated. Most thoughts are useless noise.

@NorthernSpartan

Ай бұрын

The more we think the less happy we are. Everything good comes from experiancing the world without any judgement or thought

@piratesmileprod6533

Ай бұрын

All thoughts are all lies all of the time.

The title is disingenuous "Breaks down the secret of life"?, seriously, nah.

Much ado about very little, which bring us back to, for me; What is all this dissent about between us all? Spirits or something like it, hurtling through space on a blue dot. And we find the time for hate. I do my best not to. Peace

Both fo them when death nears them, will look for meaning, at least to conquer death, samsara, or know your mind.

Jp needs to shut up and let Sam talk

@Adam-wt5vf

2 жыл бұрын

You're so resentful

@RobinLundqvist

Жыл бұрын

Sam would disagree with you on that

guess he knows something...

As a professional in geriatrics including Hospice for the past 30 years, all of this pontificating, philosophizing and conjecture is meaningless coming from these two at this point in their lives. You NEVER know how you're going to react when the $hit hits the fan and I would not want either one of these guys in the foxhole with me. Especially Jordan Peterson who seems like a real coward. He's a 1st World Alpha, but when the Zombies come, he's the first to die. Sam is cool.

The interruptions…. Why derail Sam when there’s no chance you can add anything meaningful…

@robertmiller4217

2 жыл бұрын

sam looks stoned

@ducko1988

Жыл бұрын

Perhaps you don’t understand the purpose of conversation. What you’re after is a monologue.

@kamalhwail2592

Жыл бұрын

JP has a lot of meaningful things to say

@backfru

8 ай бұрын

Coz JP enjoys talking and pontificating, more than he does listening to other people. After all, he's important dammit

@jasongravely7217

8 ай бұрын

@@kamalhwail2592 “no chance you can add anything meaningful.” What exactly do you mean? Sam and Jordan have spoken for at least 15 hours on podcasts or debates and both say meaningful things often. I don’t understand what you mean.

Can you please summarize this idea for me? I've watched the video multiple times and I really don't understand it.

@dawnkeyy

Жыл бұрын

He touched upon the sense of Self being an illusion very briefly, and it helps to understand all this if you have a general grasp of that concept. Also it helps to understand this video if you actually have some experience with meditation. If you have never meditated, try it for 3-4 days, and you will find a lot of what he says to be immediately relatable (like not being able to pay attention to the breath for a minute if your life depended on it). Now, basically, there's this "spell" that You are what your thoughts are. I am what I'm thinking. I am the voice in my head. Or the images, or the emotions. Things are happening to Me. I have a body etc. Sam claims there is no "me" (Self), but only the experience of being conscious. The experience of the "lights being on at all". You aren't really located behind your eyes, looking out at the world. That experience is an illusion itself. You simply see. You don't have a head (as a matter of visual experience), where your head is supposed to be, you have the mountains, or your room, or the face of a friend, or whatever you're looking at. Now to try to get to the core of the subject, or what I would take away from this video: if you identify with your thoughts, that causes a lot of suffering. Meditation is a process that, among other things, helps you look at or experience thoughts the same way you would experience sounds. Something that appears from nowhere and disappears into nothing, you have no control over what you'll hear next or how loud it will be. All you can do is experience it, or acknowledge that you heard a thing, and do that moment to moment. The same experience can be had with thoughts. People liken it to watching the clouds blow past, or watching traffic run by. You no longer have the experience of being in the car. I have a feeling I might have confused you more than I helped, but I really hope I'm at least somewhat wrong there

@jtjrose

Жыл бұрын

@@dawnkeyy i thought i understood the video and for the most part, i could follow what was going on (admittedly, i had to rewind a few times) but this comment really tied things together. thank you

yes Sam -and thats one reason why people invented the god myth. we strive for security.

Sam Harris seems to be more spiritual than Jordan Peterson. Peterson associates the internal dialogue with the brain activity. However, when I need to drink water, I don't need the internal dialogue to initiate a motor response. I can move my hand without it. But as Sam points out, it's so ever present that it doesn't strike people as strange. Even somebody like Jordan Peterson. It's really odd that Peterson doesn't know about the danger of this internal dialogue.

@VigilanteTribe

2 жыл бұрын

absolutely.. but seems to be it's because of the western philosophical tradition that Peterson is a product of that hasn't integrated consciousness and identity effectively with living reality.

@ansari1375

2 жыл бұрын

@@VigilanteTribe That's right.

@ShaneGillisClips

2 жыл бұрын

Spiritual is the wrong word. But they both oscillate is an out of scientific realism vs psychological spirituality

@ansari1375

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaneGillisClips I'm not sure if psychological spirituality is a better word. They are just words. If words could represent the reality, everything would be clear. Unfortunately, we can only use words approximately, and not exactly. Spiritual, material, physical, meta-physical. They are just concepts. Nothing more than that.

@pedestrian_0

2 жыл бұрын

Sam is a logical speaker, so he would be a fan of the brain activity explaining the processes, I doubt he's a more spiritual person than Jordan, Jordan is the one who acts as if God exists here lol. Sam is on the side of 'I'm not sure what's happening here' because we don't know too much about neurology at this point in time. If the answer were out there, Sam would be the one to hop on that wagon. Since we don't know what the deal is, he can only say 'not sure what's happening, but this idea of free will is merely an illusion' which I agree with.

Yeah yeah smartasses it’s all nothing merry Christmas❤️

this conversations shows the utter patheticness of how far we understand ourselves. That we backslap for observing such toad like behaviour

row row row your boat, GENTLY, down the stream, merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream...exactly...so i'm into gently and down the stream not row up stream or go against entropy...simply be to see...free...tks

☸️☯️

this is painfully ignorant of the fact that those suffering pain are dwelling on their future and regretting their past. The conversations seems to equate humans with animals, who of course suffer no such nonsense.

this man does not know any "secrets" about life. No one does.

"Breaks down the Secret to Life", that's absolutely hilarious , I mean come on....he just talks intellectual mumbo jumbo that sounds great to the ear but doesn't get close to that which isn't close...there is no Secret

Be lucky. Problem solved.

@slimdilly_

2 жыл бұрын

what you mean? cool name btw

Meditation, mindfulness and a little knowledge of Buddhism, that's all they are talking about really. They make it sound like a true revelation. Weird for such smart guys. Questons too the validity of any thought because we really don't know where they come from.

@swcpugilist

Жыл бұрын

Great job finding the negative lining that doesn't exist 🤦‍♂especially ironic given the topic at hand

So difficult for JP to not intellectualize it; "in CBT we....", S: " When I need water, who am I telling, as if there's a separate entity?" JP laughs: "..that's. probably your neocortex"......experience without mind is unattractive to mind. Both have great minds, thus bigger obstacles. Too simple; simple, but not easy. Namaste.

Someone tell Jordan to shut up