When you hold the divine council worldview that’s in the Scripture then the allegiance view makes so much sense.

@aitornavarro6597

23 күн бұрын

Right, it's not about works to earn your salvation or keep your salvation, it's about gratitude for the work Jesus did on the cross, his blood, death and resurrection. Allegiance to King Jesus is being at his service, being loyal to Jesus the one true God above all other "gods".

Love Matthew Bates and agree with his book.

Commenting as Jon Tretsven, Amen Shawn! I have to congratulate you on having the determination to read the entire book. I wouldn't have made it very far. It's ironic how the allegiance (Lordship) salvation proponents think they're the ones putting the emphasis on Jesus' work and that we're the ones focusing on ourselves. I think that's called projection.

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

yeah that is the most unusual part of the book and their view. how do they not see that faith alone (belief alone) put all the focus on looking to Christ's work and none of it on my work? it's weird.

@robfirestone6158

5 ай бұрын

Rev Reads, do you have a Facebook page? Where does one go to really interact- here? Email? Facebook? Do you present your name publicly?

@RevReads

5 ай бұрын

Here is the link to the Rev Reads Facebook group facebook.com/groups/1632544567080511/@@robfirestone6158

I haven’t read the book. I have no interest in reading it in the future. But, you just gave one of the best presentations of the gospel I’ve heard in a long time. Thank you and God bless!

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

That's the best compliment I could receive. Thank you so much!

Excellent interaction with the arguments and defense of the FG gospel, Shawn! Thanks much. 🙂

@RevReads

6 күн бұрын

I think in the end, his flaw is that he places too much weight on a couple of uses of faith (I think it was in Maccabees?) and that colors every instance of faith from there out. It is simply a poor understanding of word meaning functions.

First off, I think that you did an excellent job of explaining what is exactly concerning about Matthew's perspective on faith, grace, and salvation. I really appreciated your insight. What exactly do you mean by Jesus' kingdom is not here yet? Is there not a current tension between the future full realization of the Kingdom and the reality of it now among Christ's followers? Thank you sharing this insight!

How do we go about supporting your ministry on Rev Reads?

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

You can support Rev Reads by becoming a member or making a one time gift at buymeacoffee.com/revreads thanks for asking!

"There is no real way of knowing you are a child of God if it is dependent upon your allegiance." Would you say the same about discipleship? That we must be agnostic as to whether or not we are obeying God? Matthew 21:28-31 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” It seems that there is a clear line where one can self examine one's behavior and see if they are obeying God. I agree with you that God wants us to be confident, knowing that he loves you. But then you say, "We're confident because we know Jesus is enough, and we've placed our faith in him." This to me sounds like doublespeak, where you in one breath say that Jesus accomplished everything at the cross and in the next breath require our personal "belief" to make the salvation actually applicable. I'm not sure if I understand your position.

Yes. Thank you. I was more and more frustrated as I read his book. Heresy, maybe?

@RevReads

Ай бұрын

No, I wouldn't put it in the heresy category. He has the right elements. We should believe in Christ and we should give Christ our allegiance, but he is just wrong on how allegiance relates to our salvation. I don't think makes one heretical.

Thanks for the review. Please review MacArthur's book "Slave" too at some point.

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

That would be interested for me to reread since at one point in my life, Slave was my favorite book.

Your review is a caricature of his main point. Bates certainly believes that Pistis does mean credence, trust, and belief in numerous places in the New Testament, for example, to receive healing. But when pistis is connected to Jesus’ Lordship, the best understanding of pistis is loyalty, fidelity, faithfulness, allegiance. And to believe that ongoing allegiance and faithfulness to Jesus Christ as King over a kingdom is not required for final salvation is just way way off.

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

I guess I am just way off, because where Bates and I disagree is that what is required to receive physical healing (trust in Jesus) is the same pistis required to receive spiritual healing (eternal life). Allegiance is what those who already have eternal life should give in response to their new life, but the new life isn't dependent on the allegiance. The eternal life was already given as a result of trusting in Jesus.

@tompeers53

7 ай бұрын

New life has to begin with the intention of acknowledging Jesus as King, and with the intention of following Him as such. Obviously, for newborn Christian, there wasn’t enough time to manifest fruit, but final salvation is contingent upon a life of allegiance/faithfulness (not perfection, but a general, trusting in and fleshing out of allegiance to Jesus as king.)

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

@@tompeers53 what do you mean by final salvation? That is not an adjective that, I believe, is ever used by an author in the Bible to discuss salvation.

@tompeers53

7 ай бұрын

Salvation is past, present, and future. I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. The final verdict of salvation awaits final judgment when the Lord gives his final verdict, which is based on both faith AND faithfulness (allegiance) to Jesus the King. Only those who maintain belief, trust, faithfulness (allegiance) to Jesus the King will experience eternal life. But that final pronouncement waits for final judgment. (Again, this is not perfection. This is a general life that consists of faith plus faithfulness to Jesus.)

@bloodboughtbigphilr8266

6 ай бұрын

​@tompeers53 Completely at odds with salvation by faith alone in Christ alone and more akin to official Catholic teaching. One is either saved or not contingent on what they do with Jesus and they either believe or don't believe. He who believes on the Son has eternal life and isn't awaiting a final verdict based on performance. Salvation is a one time event and eternal life a present possession not a probationary process where it can be lost or invalidated. A confused mess, unScriptural nonsense and a false gospel.

I appreciate your reviews Shawn, but maybe you are missing the mark with this book for a battle on 'free grace'. I believe it is a way to keyframe (one of a couple one should examine) the Bible into a Kingdom model that is focused on the testimony of Christ and no other way shall provide salvation since He is the King of your life, dying to the old self, and truly showing to God no other will come into conflict with the first Commandment, with a true sense of finality/full committed autonomy allegiance (faith). I believe the point of this allegiance, God recognizes it truly is the baptism that brings you from death of the other kings/nations/ways, and welcomes you into salvation, the way, the truth, and the life. People within that kingdom would not take part of being part of Egypt, Babylon, Assyrian, and other Ancient Near Eastern Religions, or Greco-Roman ones too since they were the ways that lead to death. Again the conflict is in how much grace is being applied, and I think Bates would agree, it means no finality in choice towards another god before you meet the finish line; if you go from Christian to a New Age way fully and committed beyond the point of ever willing to turn back, it would be this level of allegiance that if you looked at let us say the Apostle Paul who became a 'New Ager', I think you would have conflicting thoughts to this being a person who truly is an apostle or follower since he ended his ways dedicated to another way fully, in this hypothetical situation. Thanks for bringing the Greek into this but I would disagree with that finding on the bases that it does hit being a subject, and what is being described by Bates is not the same type of subject, but like that of a devotee who bears witness to Him, not one who buries a 'special knowledge gained'; the simple work, and be it that you never do it since the time never came, is you are willing to at least testify to man that Jesus is Lord, just like He would testify of us to the Father; there has to be something there, be it not even in action, but a faith willing to not just accept a gift, but at least being willing to gift it right back since we are the ones responsible to spreading the Word given to us through Christ. In simple, if asked, who do you faithfully serve, in your heart, which God knows, there was a point where that allegiance was witnessed in a way that by the receiving of the Holy Spirit, you are declaring Jesus to be Lord, which is the type of allegiance he is speaking of, not Monarchy/Kingship of man and romanticism of their ideal of allegiance. Though earthly kingdoms are given as example, God since the Fall is always bringing us closer to His Kingdom vs The Other Nations. Hope this finds you well, thanks again for always going through some wonderful reads. Though I do wish it was more of it is "okay to analyze book" verses should not be read like it is a disaster of a piece.

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

If I didn't respond the way I did, then I do not believe the Gospel that I preach to others. I believe that when Paul wrote in Romans 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Bates is calling on us to pursue salvation by a law of allegiance as though we received the Gospel by works. Paul wants us to receive a Gospel not on the basis of works but as a gift received by faith. Allegiance is what we should give God as recipients of eternal life, but allegiance is not the condition upon which a person receives or keeps eternal life.

@calmwalks

7 ай бұрын

Thanks! I understand what you mean by you had to put what you believe first before examining it through it, and kinda that was the point I was making. As more of a complementarian to constantly analyzing all around to grow my understanding, should I not waste it too much in foolishness haha, I can respectfully read from the Quran to Bates, just to ensure most areas are covered and I encourage people to since I believe the Gospel to stand above it all since there is no Lord like Jesus Christ to ever exist. Still, if Bates is wrong, there could be a better and lighter version to what he is saying out there. I mean some love the ice cream van model of salvation, but verses such as Matthew 7:21-22 can't be put under a rug. So there exists a group that can call Him Lord but He will say Depart to them; is it the NAR? Is it the santeri-ans? Is it Sinners? I think the point he is making might settle this verse better than saying a lawless sinner is the reason vs the people are alleging themselves with another christ that opposes the one preached in the Gospel mean departure? So it leaves the option: throw out full grace that covers all sin or throw out allegiance to the true Christ in the gospel, simply by a willingness to testify of Him (notice a lot of times people repeat back a prayer when receiving salvation, that could be considered allegiance in a light model of Bates). So, what would we do with a character such as the Gnostic Valentinus who heard and then preached against YHWH? Just my thoughts brother on fully reconciling the Bible vs just moving over harder to read passages, and why this isn't something to throw out when considering apologists need to have a full view of the different keyframes (even the gnostic ones). I understand if you were to say, "I wouldn't use this book in recommendations as your soteriological views", but again as material it isn't a trash keyframe, concept, or exceptionally long journal lol.

I think your idea of allegiance is not Bates. Our willingness to pick up our cross to follow Christ is the beginning of the journey, growing in knowledge and acting in loving ways is the Way. Paul lists those who will not enter the Kingdom specifically. These acts are traitorous to the King. Trusting in Christ is to obey his commands.

Guaranteed the "Allegiance" church is a controlling church with people judging each other and going back under the law...I always ask, "What is the fruit born of such beliefs?" In this type of church there are specific "sins" that are forbidden like smoking, swearing (both of which are things to work against) but relational sin is overlooked, that is, how you treat your brother or sister in Christ much less your neighbor.

@RevReads

7 ай бұрын

You do see this often. It is not unusual for pastors of large Reformed churches to be removed for being bullies to their staff and church members.