Dang, I was hoping for an atmega328p to bitbang pci-e.

@bravo1412

Жыл бұрын

XD

@jakedhale

Жыл бұрын

Same Lmao

@miigon9117

Жыл бұрын

That would be sick as hell though!

@qwertykeyboard5901

Жыл бұрын

@@miigon9117 Given how flexible pci-e is, I wouldn't be surprised if it WAS possible.

@miigon9117

Жыл бұрын

@@qwertykeyboard5901 Not really though I think. atmega328p max frequency is rated at 20MHz max while even PCIe Gen 1 runs at 100MHz. might be doable with some de-lidded liquid nitrogen cooled overclocking black magic? not sure PCI on the other hand, which runs at 33MHz, might just be possible (if we overclock the crap out of the 328p. heard someone is able to get it to 50MHz)

It's impressive that modern GPUs are still backwards-compatible with the legacy video modes that were used back in the DOS and Windows 95 era.

@miigon9117

Жыл бұрын

It's probably just some old circuit designs slapped onto the new die completely separate from everything else just to do the compatibility mode though. Process node advancement means these won't take up as much space. And they just have to support very basic stuffs. it's not like anyone is running cuda or vulkan with ray tracing on windows 95 or anything.

@qdaniele97

Жыл бұрын

That's probably because x86 based computers basically go through the entire architecture history during boot: The CPU starts in 16-bit real-mode, loads bios from rom (or now days probably some sort of bios bootloader from rom and a bios that's basically another OS from some flash memory), load bootloader from disk, at some point switch to 32 bit, start loading OS kernel, switch to protected-mode, at some point switch to 64 bit, etc. At the early stages of boot process even the latest Intel and AMD cpu basically work as a 16 bit microcontroller

@klausschmidt982

Жыл бұрын

@@qdaniele97’s funny how this mirrors the (although nowadays outdated) recapitulation theory in biology lol

@user-ny7hy2oi4y

Жыл бұрын

UEFI is 32 and 64bit It must switch before.

@giornikitop5373

10 ай бұрын

same goes for cpu's. every little thing is still supported, on the hardware level. the entire x86 architecture-ecosystem was always build on backwards compatibility, not speed. i'm sure if i could somehow downclock my 12th gen core i3 to something like 100mhz, i could play pure dos games, without sound of course.

So, I can tell you why quake's bottlenecking. The vortex86 is based off the 486, whose control pipeline is, well, let's be nice and call it "uncomplicated" or "of it's time." One of the big-ticket features of the Pentium (which Quake was targeted at), was that it was the first x86 chip to have TWO pipelines, so iD were able to do FDIV on the FPU for texture stuff with sloping floors, while the rest of the game is other stuff at the time time. On a single-pipeline chip, you get, as you show - literally half the performance.

@donpalmera

Жыл бұрын

Or in less up your own arse terminology: The pentium is superscalar and thus much faster than the 486 and Quake really needs that performance boost.

@MuffinTastic

Жыл бұрын

@@donpalmera "superscalar" sounds far more up one's own arse to me than anything OP said

@tuff_lover

Жыл бұрын

@@donpalmera Do you have friends?

@yvonetubla7682

Жыл бұрын

@@tuff_lover cry about it and stay mad

@dan_loup

Жыл бұрын

Given how it works on the pentium, with it being picky on the second instruction and the tricks you could do with the FPU, i would say that the pentium is a CPU you can do combos on, and john carmack is pretty good at pulling pentium combos.

Considering PCIe GPUs, AMD seems to have better DOS compatibility than Nvidia. I couldn't get EGA and CGA modes working on Nvidia, those would display only black screen. On AMD GPUs, those modes work just fine.

@thetechdudemc

11 ай бұрын

There's been an effort in recent times to do away with legacy compatibility entirely which is what I suspect is happening here

"I'm not made of money" lol

7:45 It's conclusive: The nVidia RTX 3080 hasn't really improved performance over their Quadro FX 1700 launched in 2007. Glad I didn't plunk any money down for that garbage! It's sad how the crypto fad really distracted nVidia from delivering improved DOS gaming performance on miniaturized hardware over the last ~15 years. What a missed opportunity. 11:55 Props to Silicon Motion's SM750 MiniPCIe for beating the 3080... for just 2% the retail price!

At this point it's no longer a bottle neck, but a needle neck.

appreciate the paw patrol note paper.

May not be the best DOS graphics card but at least you got the RTX3080 up and running in the first place :,D Jeff Geerling still messes around with both AMD and nVidia on Raspberries and struggles.

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

One of these days we'll get voodoo working on the pi :)

@voidtoast4880

Жыл бұрын

Raspberry Pie's are sadly not Arm PC's, they lack the bios/UEFI bits x86 intended GPU's require to fully function, Arm does have a UEFI equivalent called Arm system ready but it is found only on high end workstations, check out the channel Wooty B he put an AMD GPU inside one of these and it works fine, can even play modern'ish games via Box86 emulation.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

Heh, my problem is I keep trying on these newfangled Arm-based boards. Maybe I should drop over to 486!

@SonicBoone56

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling any SBC with a weird architecture too

An RTX 3080 on an Arduino? This is ridiculous, i love it! I wonder if this thing could run an AGP voodoo 4500 and an ISA Terratec Sound System Maestro 32 at the same time.

I always love your DOS-on-new-hardware videos! I hope to hear about your Tinyllama experiments soon :D

One after another, I just love your videos Mr! My fav ones are of course these special projects, even if I enjoy your other videos as well. But these are really fun and interesting, My wish - you don't need to fulfill this of course - but it is another PCB project integrating something like the ICOP or similar modules again. Anyhow, can't wait for next video! ❤😃

The Silicon Motion Lynx Express looks *very* similar to the SM750 and has drivers going back to the Win9x days. I wonder how close it is and whether it'll enable 2d acceleration...

Got some good lols from this, keep it up

I love that this worked. well played.

How I wished there was a dirt cheap x86 microcontroller-like chip, just as the 80186 was at its time.

@kitsune-chan6897

Жыл бұрын

Well, there WAS the intel Curie... *Was*

@satibel

Жыл бұрын

​@@kitsune-chan6897 the edison too, though it was at around 80 bucks. though in general the product line was quark also apparently the ~36$ launch price in 85 would be around 100 bucks today, so it'd be close to the price of the quark. if you don't mind the power consumption and size, you can get celeron/atom/AMD socket FT1 based motherboards for very cheap (~50 bucks), and you can just add a few atmega32U4 for io, another option is grabbing laptop motherboards. also on laptops there's exposed i2c in the form of the battery smbus. the only drawback beside size and power is the lack of "real time" though it's usually fast enough (

The S3 Virge DX is a pretty competent card when you avoid 3D acceleration. I use to have one on my old pentium 133MHz system.

Thats perfect illustration on "dos compatibility" issue on unusual and modern hardware. Its all just sound issue. Or to be more specific its old DMA method issue. Creative really did bad thing in long terms perspective design soundblaster based on dma controller. We wouldnt had all compatiblity issues for dos games if creative decide to spend some money and put RAM on card for soundbuffer instead of rely on DMA so much. Which makes me wounder.... Gravis UltraSound maybe !?

Thats cool. I have an Intel Galileo which is arduino compatible and has a Pentium class CPU. I've thought about doing something like this with it.

Love this type of content! Keep up the great work

I was scrolling KZread feed with pale full face, as soon I saw the title I laughed so hardddd 😂

I have one bottleneck theory to do with the mini the reason for the graphics slots being as they are traditional architecture is parallel addressing and the notebook interface is still serial data to the break out board. Nothing you'd notice in DOS or even say emulating something older than N64 but with your benchmarks it could definitely be a factor.

Im geniunely intrested if this board can run something PC-98XX compatible, like idunno, Touhou 1-5 Technically it should, it requires 486 cpu and dos, but the most interesting thing to force to work is sound, because its kinda hard to find any YM2203/YM2608 ISA boards

It's honestly impressive that the default driver worked for the quaddro. Windows 10 just refuses to recognize most older quadro cards without the driver

sweet. might have to do this with my 3080

I love the fancy notepad

Bravo!

Awesome!

Awww cute note block❤ 4:08

Thinking about the CPU bottleneck, do you think perhaps the adapters you had to use could be a bottleneck? Idk what goes into the USB adapter thing, or if there is some bandwidth issues with the PCI-PCIE bridge, but that could explain why the $20 server card did better than the 3080 since it was the only card you inserted directly into the arduino slot.

@NoNameForNone

Жыл бұрын

The 1x PCIe adapter (these things only have one lane, there exist 4x versions but they use SAS cables) is a passthrough of the PCIe lanes. No delay involved. They use usb-3 cables as the have differential pairs and shielding and are cheap. As for the pci bridge I doubt that will be the bottlenneck as the PCIe lane has in 1x mode over twice the speed of the entire pci bus so plenty of space for overhead.

@GIMM3_D4_RAM

Жыл бұрын

It's the pipeline. His chipset only has one. It needs two for optimal performance.

wasnt quake software 3d ? so I guess the bottleneck then is the cpu. the s3 virge dx card did I own back in the day. It was one of the slower cards on the market but cheap :) like $25.. where the cool guys could afford the Matrox cards what was the cool cards before all the 3d accelerated cards really entered the market.

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

yeah on most of the tests quake was software, on the voodoo it was hardware 3D though. Weird it only got 14FPS.

@AndrewTSq

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRasteri I am no expert at all with this, but could it be that the voodoo card dont have geometry transformation (if i remember it correctly) in hardware and have todo it with the cpu?

@borismatesin

Жыл бұрын

Quake had a dedicated Glide driver so it could use its capabilities to the fullest. Geometry transformation (T&L) came in much later, on the first nVidia GeForce cards - if we're talking about the same feature.

@AndrewTSq

Жыл бұрын

@@borismatesin ah many years ago so my memory is not so sharp :D fun video anyway. thanks for video.

@honkhonkler7732

Жыл бұрын

You'd need GL Quake for hardware acceleration.

I think the conversion to cga(and even ega) in monkey island is pseudo automatic? like that the dithering etc isn't stored as pixels

Are there other UNIVBE alternatives? What about FREEDOS, does it have anything relatable? Just for curiosity, are there any more video cards in miniPCIE form factor?

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

these are the only two I've found for a reasonable price

I use a gf730 on an i5600k clocked at 5.1ghz base and 5.5 max overclock. The heatsink barely fits in the case. If I game, I just use my PS4 Pro or PS5.

i like your book and the number 60.1 feels like its vsync locked

My question would be how do you even program one to have a Os like windows on it or linux?

Dank

Got to love the paw patrol notebook

There is no hardware acceleration for those games, they run 100% on CPU, the only difference is the speed of the memory on the graphics cards ! Software from that era would write directly to the framebuffer on the videocard.

4:40 eh, i wouldn't say PCI and PCIe are mostly the same. honestly PCI is much much closer to ISA in terms of function than PCIe. both ISA and PCI are a parallel bus, where all slots are directly connected to eachother and all of them share bandwidth. meanwhile PCIe is a serial interface between exactly 1 slot and the chipset/CPU. so a x16 PCIe slot is actually just 16 discrete serial lanes to the CPU, which can be dynamically en/disabled in software (like if a chipset doesn't enough PCIe lanes for all devices and slots, the system has to decide how to best assign them)

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the physical implementation is very different, but from a software standpoint PCI and PCIe behave much more like each other than ISA.

Hi! I was wondering if you know what is the exact model and maybe where did you buy the SM750-based GPU? I was looking for them for long time but they only seem to be available for $200+ from server vendors... which is obviously a ridiculous price :(

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

I got mine from chamsys in the UK but since the tinyllama community discovered these cards they never have any stock haha

@takipsizad

Жыл бұрын

i think ASRock makes them for like 90isg

BTW, seeing how bad the Vortex VGA card performs, maybe it's something that can be set on the BIOS?

I'd love to see a fx5500 pci running on it

Now to plug this peripheral PC into the graphics card

8:04 why would it need to lmao, very interesting experiment.

can dos be installed on the steamdeck? I don't think it has a csm module in the bios.

The bus connecting CPU and GPU could be the bottle neck too.

@rkan2

Жыл бұрын

That is rarely the case with games

@somdudewillson

Жыл бұрын

@@rkan2 This is not exactly a common situation here.

How'd you even get working drivers for all those cards?

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

VBEMP 9x does a good job on VESA cards (link in description)

Жыл бұрын

All these cards support basic BIOS/VESA videos modes defined way back in time (late 80s, early 90s-ish?). It's kind of amazing though that an RTX3080 still has this, even though it probably never going to be used like that with more modern UEFI systems.

@marcogenovesi8570

Жыл бұрын

@ It's used to display BIOS setting panel on BIOS systems and the card does have to support that even if most end users will probably install it on a UEFI system.

Good

Dreams have meanings My dreams:

YO alley cat wow its been a while XD

I think you have the chance for create a New Pc tipe for gamming 🤔 this rum windows 10 ?

Cool notepad. Delightfully weird for the content!

You should try the CGA modes on an Amber CRT monochrome monitor...

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

soon...

nice..

u need to try another riser for the GPU, mini pci-e to pci-e, not the USB port version

Why no Glide API test with Voodoo ?

Bottleneck is definetly he paw patrol notebook

alley cat, stray for retrogamers.

I like the notebook xd

The fans don't spin as it doesent think you're even trying to run windows

id assume the bottleneck was the usb mini b

Where are you getting that sm750 card? And for $20?! I've found only 2 vendor links from Google and the damn thing is over $100.

@marcogenovesi8570

Жыл бұрын

I'm also looking for those things and I've never seen the card he is using

@attilavs2

Жыл бұрын

Same question here, and actually found the actual individual chips but for 57$ unit at a min buy of 6 but no card

matrox still make cards that support legacy opengl pipeline

Do we get to see the Nvidia 4090 on this setup for part 2?

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

You offering to buy me one?

@drlinux

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRasteri 😆

Noice

Madness lols 😆

Hahhaha. Amazing! 👏 👏

What kind of Samsung phone was your brother using that it didn't have a calculator app by default?!

@MegaManNeo

Жыл бұрын

I am not his brother but my S20 didn't ship with a calculator program either.

@TheRasteri

Жыл бұрын

Samsung users are very good at mental arithmetic, apparently

@MegaManNeo

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRasteri The very basic function of a computer not being available after years of not having a Samsung is crazy to me too.

@0xD1CE

Жыл бұрын

He must have uninstalled it by accident or something. My S22 came with the default calculator app but apparently you can uninstall it.

@fss1704

Жыл бұрын

Hearing on right to repair: "the repair technicians can install tiktok on your phone.." Samsung be like: ow, that's a great idea.

eeeww, why is that arduino being desecrated with winblows?

Virge wasn't a very fast 2D card even back in the day. Riva 128 was about 30% faster, and then of course Tseng, ATI and Matrox also did reasonably well. If my memory serves me. Not that Trio/Virge's 2D performance was particularly limiting or outright embarrassing, just that it didn't score as highly. SM750 is a nice surprise. Perfect.

@lasskinn474

Жыл бұрын

riva128 came out a lot after the s3/s3 virge. everyone used s3-xxx cards tho just because they were cheap for the pentium 60-100 builds

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

@@lasskinn474 There were a lot of Virge respins and generations spanning a number of years and the 2D engine plain hasn't changed or gotten faster since the Trio64 and potentially much earlier chipsets yet. Because it wasn't really all that necessary, it was good enough, who cares what Ziff Davis WinBench 97 says.

@lasskinn474

Жыл бұрын

@@SianaGearz yea it worked fine, it's not like it had snow on the screen when changing palette or some sh*t like that which you could have with early cheapo svga cards. worked fine, supported lots of modes with univbe in dos, did it's job. like honestly, back in the day, if you just had a voodoo with a whatever s3, you were better off than with a "good" matrox card. it's not like you were likely to have some godly expensive monitor anyway where a better ramdac would have gotten you better image quality either.

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

@@lasskinn474 Right around 98, LG monitors astounded me. For the price of a cheap monitor, you actually got something of a completely different kind than the usual junk. High resolution, sharp, fast, well converged, good geometry, stable-ish, you could actually tell the difference between the quality of the DAC circuit on various cards and the cables once you started running higher resolutions and refresh rates. Not that you needed all that much RAMDAC bandwidth to push it though. S3 chipset wasn't a problem, some cards were wonkier than others. I think i actually got a Mitsubishi Diamondtron 20" around that time so maybe i did have a crazy good monitor. But that was expensive.

a rtx 3080 hooked to a plain pci slot will be so bottlenecked by the slot bandwidth that it literally won't even be able to use 1% of its power. anything more than a voodoo3 gets bottlenecked by pci. heck even the voodoo3 gets a lil bit bottlenecked. that's of course ignoring that the cpu probably bottlenecks even harder

Well pair it with pentium 100 and enjoy the cpu meltdown with powerpoint presentation

9:31 hehehe

Monkey Island is a great game I don't run across many people who know what it is.

You have a great voice you should be a voice over 😅

Won't run on a Pi, no matter how many times you recompile the kernel. Runs out of the box with no issues on a 486 Arduino. 8 core 486 when?

i do think it's silly to not include a dedicated calculator app on the phone because why the heck not!! but i also just ask siri/google to do my calculations 99% of the time now, so i can totally see why they wouldn't give it any real estate in the phone if a dozen other apps will take care of your maths already.

@fss1704

Жыл бұрын

I can totally see why they want you having a spy bug on it though. That's why i don't run the stock.

@jn1211

Жыл бұрын

@@fss1704 k

dude just converts mini pcie to usb and then back to full sized pcie and then to pci then connects all that shi to an arduino and is able to run windows 98 and quake on that goofy ah setup while i struggle to get a gt9500 to work on ubuntu 18.04... god has his favorites

Doing god's work here again, amen for this kind of nonsense!

buying a pc in 2023 be like: my god i got an amazing gpu! other dude: wow what about other specs? you: i got 16gb other dude: ram? nice you: no, hardrive other dude: wait wha? you: ye all money went to gpu i can ran 1980 doom at 60 fps neat aint it?

DOSduino?

rtx3060 on intel celeron J4005M (dual core)

@Jkauppa

Жыл бұрын

now thats a bottle neck, compared to gt1030 on the same mb

now put a threadripper on it

Where's the Arduino?

do it with 4090

Now mine dueño coin with it

I want my 12 minutes back

Alley Cat!!!!111! 😍

Now do it with a 4090

Yupp,this is the ultimate bottleneck

4090 on a pocket calculator when?

As obvious is click bait is a single board pc that he manages to put a graphics card

i think that the usb cable between the adapters is the real bottleneck. if a board could exist that is just a straight trough, it would probably do a LOT better.

@lasskinn474

Жыл бұрын

it's not encoded to usb or something like that. it's a usb3 cable but it's not acting as a usb3 cable, it's just a direct through to the pins basically. they just use it due to the cost of the cable and connectors.

CUTE PAWS PATROL NOTEPAD UWU Furry

try 4090Ti 💀

And now do the Arduino run at PC🤣🤣🤣

Shitpost thumbnail lol

fake

@TriflingToad

Жыл бұрын

Tell me how.

This bottleneck is like trying to fit a supermassive black hole through the event horizon of a pinhole black hole.