You have no hydraulic seperation for a system with ufh and radiators on low temperature controls. This will cause underflow in the ufh circuits when in operation. The llh needs to be refitted and a separate pump used for the radiator circuit from the distribution header. This is standard Vailant and Viessmann design. Hydraulic seperation has rules for when and when not it is required. This design you have done is subject of many of my design videos and causes regular winter call outs for me. It's very easy to rectify the issue. Ask Vilizar at Vailant to do a system schematic for you. This is as much of a hydronic no no as ccts at the ufh manifold.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

Well, we do disagree here. I’d rather have CCT on manifolds than LLH here. If I have made a mistake I want to learn from it and go back and rectify. I appreciate your experience but I would like to test it myself and go back if needed. I have seen the discussion with you and Adam re CCT and I am aware of it. I will report back

@andrewmillwardwatford9410

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers it can all be proved mathematically with what you have learned from the heat geek course. I worry about credible sources giving out ideas with mistaken design principles. This leaves installers and customers vulnerable to system issues. Happy to discuss the issues with you.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 sure! I would love to meet and have it all explained!

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

How do I find your number mate?

@andrewmillwardwatford9410

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers I message you on messenger before

What is truly amazing is that Urban Plumbers took on such a massive job and did not force the client to buy a whole bunch of new equipment to solve their issue. Instead, he deleted inefficient kit, redesigned and rewired the system and invested only time. Syzmon is the highest caliber of professional! Well done!

@TheWebstaff

Жыл бұрын

I can't wait to see the update and note from Andrew. It was a bit of an experiment and lessons might have to be learnt. It's good to see people's working out though!

@ogi22

Жыл бұрын

Well, i have to agree that this is amazing and a great show of high class specialist. However if they had double what they needed, i would just leave those redundant parts as a spare. Such heater is not worth a couple pennies... I have a similar sityation at my home - exchanging coal heating for gas. And i still want to leave old stove just in case, work on it a little and have an emergency heat source able to use coal, wood, chips, pellet... Hard times are coming and relying only on one source of energy is very risky.

@edc1569

Жыл бұрын

Breath of fresh air, so tiring seeing trades just scrap perfectly serviceable equipment, incredibly wasteful.

Never met a plumber/ heating guy with half the knowledge, and ability of this guy, unreal 👍

Finally a heating plumber who puts into his job more thought than I put into my hobbies.

raw talent and whats even better is you do really go above and beyond to try to make your customers systems as efficient as possible , well done Simon

Wow, what a difference. Plumbing and heating genius. As a DIY'er i'm in complete awe :)

@silvervanmanfly

Жыл бұрын

As a plumber myself I am also in awe. A credit to the profession.

I would happily endorse your ability as a real engineer unlike many of the so-called gas/boiler fitters that like to think they are! Well done on a) taking on the job, b) being tenacious and knowledgeable enough to fault find it and c) resolve it without resorting to a ‘rip it out and start from scratch’ attitude 👍

@Umski

Жыл бұрын

@James Clerk Maxwell I have a Blue Peter badge 🤪

@billmarsh1971

Жыл бұрын

@@Umski this is by far the most magnificent comeback I've ever seen on the internet, very well played!

With these levels of competency and professionalism you should be running the entire country. Absolutely fantastic Mr Urban

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

naaah - the current lot are doing great, aren't they? 😄

Hopefully young apprentices are watching this channel and seeing a great example of what professionalism and skill looks like. It will certainly help them in their future careers.

Your knowledge is incredible. You were certainly born to do this job!

It seems you have to be as much an electrician, plumber and boiler engineer - all at the same time. This is a huge, complex job that could completely fry your brain. Hat's off to you.

Brilliant video as always. As a heating engineer myself, I can appreciate what an amazing standard you work to 👌 Keep up the good work & keep the awesome vids coming 👍

You are an artist and this heating system is a work of art

You are a heating genius that can simplify overcomplex systems and remove all that's not needed leaving the heating system more efficient and the customer very pleased.

really excellent video! Everything explained so a layperson like me can understand, delivered with humility and a sense of humour too! You sound like a true professional, not some blagging shyster (can you tell I've had a couple of those in the past?) Your customers are lucky to have you. Subscribed, and please keep the videos coming!

No idea or understanding , but it is amazing to see someone so professional and easy to understand, that he knows what he is doing and also, takes some risks to test himself. Thanks for your knowledge!

I love your channel. Your style of presenting is really natural as opposed to some on KZread. Your knowledge is excellent and your problem solving skills really creative. Well done.

Love to see the original plumbers face who obviously thinks he’s the bees knees over designing such a complex system. Awesome job!

Another great video of your work.. your depth of knowledge is incredible. I don't know how you learned all that but your customers are lucky to have such a top professional on the job.

@delilahlynch324

Жыл бұрын

He's done the heat geek training course, best resource in the country

Chanced upon one of your videos, I was impressed by the content, presentation and professionalism - now a subscriber - excellent job my friend.

I have not a clue but am fascinated by the skill of Mr Urban and his unique approach to home heating that really effects us now.

You are a master of your craft and I’m addicted to watching vids now about plumbing and heating…😂😂

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

👍

Your work ethic is fantastic, as others have commented. Fine tuning and efficiency - simplifying and optimising powered by thought, not excess and compensation powered by laziness and incompetence. Re the softened water thing - base exchange softened water does indeed dissolve scale deposits, you're right. However when this occurs on a large build-up, sludge can form in lower-flowing areas, or restrictions, such as strainers, filters, and aerator fittings at the end of taps, so something to look out for in a situation like this. It can also dissolve 'cleanly' over time though and eventually pass through to drain without much issue.

Great explanation of the system and the changes you made.

I like that you tried without knowing it would work. Glad it did, smart work.

We can summarize that in order to save a fortune on heating costs we should call a competent and knowledgeable plumber :D very good video I quite enjoyed it, thanks for sharing!

Brilliant ! Mesmerising watching a true professional at work..

You're amazing, managing to sort out all that wiring. I was impressed with the condition of the hot water cylinders, no limescale at all. After seeing that I went and bought an industrial water softener to fill my 4,000 litre buffer tank. I'm planning on linking an annexe and have some insulated underground water pipe, it's 32mm so I'm going to thread 16mm through to get my flow rate correct. It's only a 10 mtr. run so I think it should be fine. I'm leaving the hot water on Economy 7 as long as my contract allows. I find with a properly insulated large tank there's very little loss over the day. Some people complain about heat loss from a store but what I've found is you have to make sure there's no parasitic convection going on. Another thing I don't think people realise is that their heat store isn't fully up to temperature to start with. I can see heat stores will be very useful when smart grid pricing comes along. John.

I love wiring heating controls, looking to be working with you soon.

And to think I had trouble wiring a Y plan, with cylinder, and room stat, you my friend are on a higher plain, enjoy the content, well done Simone

I love it when a plan comes together 👍👍👍

Well..Simon..you have nailed it... bravo and keep on going...greetings from Rotterdam ..thanks for sharing .

Wow, so many wiring centres, my mind is blown. What a superb job you've done there, most impressive!

Brilliant work! Super interesting and well explained 🙌

They hired you for a reason. Tons of houses out there like this. Keep up the good work

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

Thanks 👍

Lovely work mate. What a massive difference that will make to their gas bills this year!

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

There is more to it than I was able to show on the video. They had 600L of stored water and never enough hot water - 2nd circulation was constantly depleting the cylinders with 2 x boilers constantly trying to recharge them! This should make a massive improvement to energy consumption

@samposton9101

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers crazy!! I suppose that’s why the secondary return should be lagged so well to stop that. At the new gas price that’s over 2.5k per year in saving!!

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

@@samposton9101 yes, you can easily cost you that much with insane 600L and 50kW of boilers cycling all day

@singlendhot8628

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Reminds me of that mixing episode you did earlier in the year. Well done!

Amazing work, loved how you have worked everything out first and problem-solve - wish you are closer to us in (Bath) as it is a pain to find a good plumber to install a new boiler for us at the moment!

I will say the Vailant/Gloworm ebus stuff is quite handy, we had a new glowworm compact fitted at the place we are renting and no controller or even a room thermostat was fitted (the previous boiler being an ultracom with the built in programmer). Absolute pain to turn the heating on/off so ended up getting a ClimaPro2. Installed in seconds using the plug under the boiler and so much easier than having to take the front cover off to wire something internally.

You pal are a very clever chap. Mind is blown again

Knowledgeable at its best, very good video for who is in the game and not only. Thanks

Fantastic really enjoyed this as a gas engineer thank you

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Simon strikes again. As always covers every detail as it should have been in the first place.

Knowledge and skill off the scale. 👏

Well done. These are great to watch.

Very good video, for 30 years I fit weather compensator, the old honeywell AQ6000 was a fab weather compensator controller with optimum on and optimum off. If HMG wanted to improve efficiency they could get rid of bimetallic stats, thermistors are so much better.

That’s amazing mate, good work 👍

It’s mental how much knowledge you keep stored in your brain. Incredible

Great video thanks and salient in late 2022 in Europe. Also good seeing you discussing theory and practice in the comments.

It's a rarity to find someone so knowledgeable.

Great work . Thanks for sharing all that valuable information .

I watch these videos even though I have no idea what he's talking about. What a guy.

Another great video! Love to see these

Another well explained interesting video. Great stuff

Thanks for taking the time!!

Excellent video, don't think most electricians could have worked that out.

You are doing an excellent explanation with the limited time and complex installation that you have. You did not tell us if the boilers were set up to fire properly to maintain the needed space and hot water temp. You stated that energy consumption was high with not enough heating but you did not share your findings as to what caused the situation of the high energy bill. Good luck.

I love their choice in the heating system, I love how you have rationalised it all (BRILLIANT) and I really love their choice in paint 🤭 Farrow & Ball, they are superior producers of paint with a wonderful palette of rich colours (no I don't work for them). Such an daunting job you have taken on and you achieved it 😎

@stephen3654

Жыл бұрын

They're not short, they can even afford Andrex.

@Lee.Willcox

Жыл бұрын

​@@stephen3654 😄😆😅🤣I shop at LIDL and their bog roll chafes 😩 If only I could afford ALDI or ASDA bog paper, let alone Waitrose 😤😥

@stephen3654

Жыл бұрын

@@Lee.Willcox I use my hand and rinse it in the flush

Just found your channel and really impressed. You may still have a bit to learn but could be the time to ease of on the tools and make your fortune in consulting. ie How to do a proper job or correct what 'heating engineers ' have botched up and over charged on. ( only applies to some, you know who you are ) Your knowledge for your age far exceeds what an average guy knows and your videos and knowledge is truly inspirational. Well done and keep the videos coming.

maybe you could see if vaillant will sponsor an Arotherm addition for the property next year! ;) would have been interesting to know more about the wiring, though I appreciate the brain frying nature of boiler wiring!

I can't wait to see the results in a year!

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

I think I will go back in Jan 2023 once we have data for at least 2-3 colder months.

Love these videos, such a clever guy.

I always take my time to write numbers and rooms on the corresponding wires, plus I write it on a piece of paper and leave that on the boiler/heat pump. Sometimes it feels useless but seeing how much time it takes you figuring out, I’ll continue doing it lol

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

I take pictures of the notes and file them under the project in Evernote. I do that for all jobs Justin case I have to trouble shoot it in the future

Brilliant job!!! 👍👍👍👍

Awesome plumbing man. Would love to understand the electronics side to your level one day.

You should open that bottle of champagne to celebrate a job well done

Big respect, I'm a techie not a plumber but appreciated the erasure of stuff that wasn't adding anything valuable to the system. Goes to show that there's plenty of scope to reduce energy usage and waste. Please keep making more of these, and hope you aren't kidnapped :)

You.are.a.good.plummer! Very good video. Thank you!

Very satisfying 👍 Is there any sort of mixing valve on the underfloor? You mentioned 2 heating curves but without sensors and mixing stations the vr71 will run at the higher curve I believe.

It will succeed 👍. Have no doubt about it. I hate low loss headers when they are not needed. If in doubt I would put small buffer with buffer sensors wired to vr 71 instead.

Now that's a real nice home

Very good brother.. great work.

You didn't explain what you had to do to that wiring centre, but my head had exploded already by then! Why do installers make things so unnecessarily complicated? It's a lovely big house, but I've worked in 50 room hotels with simpler control systems! Well done for improving things so much for the client with minimum outlay.

Decent looking boilers those. They look similar to the range topping Ideal Vogue or System boilers inside and out. Not cheap!

I have always thought commercial heating engineers have been lured by over complexity for technical one-upmanship. It appears that the clients budget usually determines the system size. In a house of this size I would expect a second boiler to be in position just to prevent inconvenient heat failure. I am amazed that all those zones work on one built-in boiler pump.

I'm a Viessmann guy and have often used the boiler pump to handle full radiator loads but only when the pump is operating within its curve. The DHW 3 way valve is handled internally in the boiler so there is no question of having the wrong temp going to the tank. I can understand why the LLH is in place and if the DHW was sent to the tank bypassing the LLH, you would still have the benefit of the LLH for flow control through the secondary circuits.

I wish you were closer to Shropshire. I'd happily have you review and upgrade my system. If you have any recommendations for like minded installers, please share. Keep up the great work...

Very interesting job.

Amazing work as always. Wish you were up in the North East so that I could get you to fix this little bungalow haha.

Well done for taking on the challenge!!! Could you not have salvaged the second water cylinder with an endoscope camera? Remove the heating element and stick the scope in. Less time and effort consuming. Still many thanks for the video

I'm always fascinated by your videos and despite what is being said by some, your knowledge way surpasses any plumber I have ever met! I'm particularly interested to note that a 24 kw boiler can provide all the heat on a 4000 square foot property given that my 1800 ish property with 11 trv'd rads and 1 hw tank struggles on a 18kw boiler even when 4 rads are isolated and the respective room doors are closed. The only suggestion I have had from a plumber is to increase the boiler to 24 kw. BTW, double glazed and copious roof insulation.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

you probably only need 10kW then. Google 'heat geek map' and hire a heat geek elite member - bigger chance to get someone who will be actually able to help you

@dontuno

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers Many thanks and I will give that a go.

Amazing job! 👏

Awesome video as always Simon and some very beneficial information to take away. One question - you always mention heat loss calculations when it comes to complete system renovations/retrofits and I just wanted to understand your methodology for determining the heat loss in a property? Do they have to be relatively new buildings and you have access to the fabric values (External walls and glazing U-values etc.) Or do you have a good understanding of material performance and make assumptions from there? Thanks in advance!

@andyhodchild8

Жыл бұрын

I would be interested in this as I used to do Heat loss calcs but you could spend 1 day + measuring the house and 1 day on calcs. Or is he doing something more basic? The last thing I used was the MCS spreadsheet for biomass (and maybe Heat pumps). Two terraced cottages joined into one house came to 15kW each would have had a 24kW combi in!

Very nice job. Sadly too many surveyors only look at what you already have and quote rather than asking what you need and would like to achieve and then quote. Sadly too many unskilled people don’t know how to work out what’s required so so just do a like for like swap. There’s plenty of big well named companies fitting systems like it’s the 90’s! And sadly customers love it because the rads get hot.

Great video

A heating engineer Wizard !!

Yes a softener will slowly remove existing scale build up in any water using system or appliance

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

I heard that before, but this is the first time I was actually able to confrim it!

Fantastic work mate you mentioned possibly needing another zone pump did you end up replacing it or was it again a case of not been correctly setup in the first place

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

I am not sure I understand your question

Such great videos 👍

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

Glad you like them!

Fascinating video, bit mind blowing for a domestic installation, imagine a hospital!

Topman👍 wish you covered my area

I absolutely love your videos man!! I keep watching with a view of trying to work out why my heating system is so inefficient ! I live down near Portsmouth, would you travel this far to try and help me make my system work better ? I have a highly disabled daughter who requires constant temperature consistency and I struggle to keep everything working nicely for her! I have a Worcester Bosch life system boiler with an unvented 250l cylinder and underfloor heating in areas throughout the downstairs with a scope of extending this underfloor heating when works are done. I’m constantly wrestling with it to try and keep my bills down!!

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

Google ‘heat geek map’ for a better chance of finding an engineer who understands efficient heating systems

@krissybufton

Жыл бұрын

@@UrbanPlumbers oooh I’ll look into it ! Thanks

Another great job 👍 would there not need to be some sort of hydraulic speration for the different flow rates of the underfloor heating and radiators?

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

yes there should be. I quoted for it but was asked not to improve UFH manifolds! The reasoning is - UFH is 7kW so 1/3 of the boiler output and never run more than 1/3 of the house. This is not ideal but will work.

Guarantee the original installer looked at the house and thought, they have plenty of money, then over-specified the original system massively to make it a much bigger job than actually needed. You could run the place as a hotel on that original system, 50kW, total overkill.

@waqasahmed939

Жыл бұрын

I've got a 29KwH boiled when realistically, I need half that. My house theoretically uses 10,000 KwH of gas a year

@Bertie_Ahern

Жыл бұрын

Of course. Sad but true, it's only about money for most plumbers.

I need this dude to come and look at my house, if just i was not so far away xD

Mate I’m a computer science teacher and even I struggled to keep up with your Boolean logic , your simply one of a kind , I had a similar issue and still do , 38kw boiler when all I needed was 24kw at most , took years for me to be told and modulation set as best as it could , even now it’s not great but seems better. Anything else I can do bar swap the boiler ? Congrats I hope to use you when I’m back in the UK 👍👍👍

@RayMondElec

Жыл бұрын

Hi G please explain modulation set as best as it could. . Thanks

@user-te1le7ck6b

Жыл бұрын

@@RayMondElec engineer set the boiler to modulate down quicker so it uses less power as it doesn’t need it

@RayMondElec

Жыл бұрын

@@user-te1le7ck6b thank you. I think that means your boiler was range rated. I may be wrong. I think the boiler in the video is a vallient 837. Mine is a vallient 937 ( in built storage tanks) . Valliant service the boiler. My total rads KW is 18. So I set it to 18kw. Valliant engineer said it is best to leave it on auto mode and switched it back🙄. He also said to leave the pump speed in Auto. Set my flow to 55C and hot water to 50C. So much conflicting info online one never really knows what to set in order to save gas and run an efficient system. 🤔

@user-te1le7ck6b

Жыл бұрын

@@RayMondElec mine is 38kw so needed to set it down to help as best as it could

Awesome job as ever. Got to be honest, I wouldn’t have tackled that job, far too much thinking for my brain to deal with! Have you done any formal electrical training or did you just learn as you went along?

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

I only had basic electrical training

Very interesting thanks for sharing

How does the contactor wire into the VR71? We're looking at a similar job, albeit with 4 zones but curious about the ability to keep 3rd party controls. We will be taking them out on this one as they're simple stats but I know we'll come across a 4 x Nest type setup soon enough where the client will want to keep their existing controls. As always, top-notch content Simon, well done.

@UrbanPlumbers

Жыл бұрын

You just need a standard contractor to send volt free switch - either No or Nc will do. NO are easier to buy so just get those. You can only do 3 zones on one vr71 for more than than you need additional vr70 (one per each additional 2 zones)

Base exchange water softeners (salt) both stop the buildup of limescale and strip the existing scale from the pipework and cylinders. It takes months or years depending on the level of existing buildup but what you had here is no surprise.

Maximum respect!