This KZread channel is about super-efficient heating solutions for residential and commercial properties. This channel will show you how to design, install, and commission modern and ultra efficient heating systems using weather-compensated gas boilers, domestic hot water priority set ups, and renewable technology such as: air source, ground source, and lake source heat pumps, solar thermal and solar PV installations.
Remember to like comment and subscribe!
For bookings please visit our website: www.urbanplumbers.co.uk
Пікірлер
I wish you would come to me. I paid for the survey 3 weeks ago and was told 2 weeks later we can't survey your property because there are no heat geeks in your area and you need to wait until somebody gets trained up.
30minutes 3.7 cop
2:30 fancy haircuts lads
Now can we get that type of cylinder but with the ability to work it on a twin coil so we can utilise solar thermal? Finally does it have the possibility to use an electric heating element as back up so if a heat pump breaks down. Hot water is still available so less of a rush to get the repairs done
Why not just add a ASHP in series with the gas/petrol boiler network and have the boiler pump run all the time? ASHP can work with temperatures above 2C and boiler for lower outdoor temperatures. As a retrofit mostly but as a new system as well. Too much controls?
For me to go down that route i will be long dead before payback.
Just fast forward to 2050 every house on the estate has a ASHP running.Its going to sound like Heathrow airport. Thats assuming the whole electricity network has been upgraded to take the load and we have built the 6 new nuclear reactors to power it and we have found our own source of fuel for them.
Great Video as always! I’ve rewatched this and still have some confusion to clarify. You made a really interesting point about 3’rd party equipment and additional equipment like buffer tanks reducing the efficiency. Therefore, does that mean the cylinder in this instance is for heating hot water for shower/kitchen? I assumed it was a buffer tank!
More equipment, higher cost of parts? All that mlcp has to cost as much as a buffer.....
This is really interesting as I've yet to fit a heat geek cylinder, for a heat pump it's a no brainer as long as the cost is comparable with a manufactures own or Mixergy which are the ones that come up in conversations with customers most.
If you bend the copper pipe instead of soldered joints, this makes for a better water flow. 💂♂️🏴🇬🇧
Cop 5.5 and time will be 42 minutes
Friday testing late in the day gives me anxiety 😂press fittings definitely make it less stressful 😊
I notice you do not use the Valliant hydraulic station. Is there a reason for that?
It’s never needed. It adds unnecessary cost and makes the system run less efficiently
@UrbanPlumbers I was suspecting that. Do you ever use the VRC 9642 thermostat from Valliant for your underfloor heating? I am amazed how good these low Kw heat pumps are working as for the same m2 my energy adviser is suggesting double this size. Well done
Does it work as well without a heat pump heating system and can if allow for an immersion backup heat source (in case the heat pump fails/in repair). If a heat pump takes advantage of pressure to generate heat, would this be somehow useful as a pressurised hot water tank ie just increase the water pressure in the tank to generate heat as a byproduct. I recall my scuba tanks got hot when air at pressure was injected into the tank and lost heat as air was vented and a vacumn was left
It's brilliant, just a shame there isn't a way to retrofit the tech to an existing modern cylinder. Really don't want to throw out perfectly good 2 year old one...
My only ask is that Newark use quality materials , we expect cylinders to last decades and these need to do similar , cos having ordered one they are quite a wedge .
It's a cylinder.😅😊
What is the surface area of coil?
6m2
There is nothing new, or special, about this cylinder. Many of us have been using tailormade cylinders produced by Gledhill. We have specified the coil size and design, including ways to deal with stratification, for many years. Its common for large commercial cylinders to have small de-stratification pumps. Tall narrow cylinders such as this heat geek design will suffer more from stratification than a short squat cylinder. The main reason that not many high performance cylinders are used in domestic properties are cost.
Suffer from stratification? Stratification is desirable and you don’t want to de stratify.
@@UrbanPlumbers Well that depends on how much hot water you need. If you have a very high temperature primary flow temperature and a cylinder with a high capacity coil then no level of stratification is a problem, some of my cylinders have a very rapid recovery time. I'ts also not true to say that this cylinder is the "most efficient cylinder in the world" I could have a more effecient one made to order, it also depends on how you want to measure cylinder effeciency.
I’ve done the Kimbo training but if I was to buy this product I’d need to pay the higher price now from Newark, because I’ve not completed another course. I’m a big fan of heatgeek but Newark are creating different pricing for whoever buys it.
I’m currently running a 500L thermal store with my 7kw Vaillant and am getting almost identical figures to the heat geek cylinder. I’m looking forward to seeing how it performs when I’m using the heating. I’ve also run the outlet from my mvhr system to the back of the heat pump to see the affect if any on the cop during the winter.
Urban Plumber, you're so lovely. However, I'm worried that you may be misleading some people. First concern is this; if our hot water drops to 45°c my wife stands there running the hot tap and shouts at me " John, we've got no hot water. Second concern; a mini cylinder would be virtually useless at 45°c, might serve as a hand-wash. Third concern; you give a CoP of nearly 5, but it is July, what about a foggy freezing November day? Fourth concern; in the winter your 5kw heat pump will have its work cut out heating your space. That efficient cylinder is absolutely huge and most probably costs a small fortune which would make it unviable for the masses. When we are getting more wind energy, a heat store at a high temperature may be what's needed. This would help the Grid by avoiding peak times. A heat pump running constantly isn't always going to be a viable solution. I like a hot bath, a good soak for 30 minutes, in that circumstance as the water cools down some really hot water is needed as a top up. Howabout having an inline electric booster? Say run your heat pump hot water at 45° and then bringing it up to a useful temperature with electricity?
You can heat up that cylinder to 75c with my heat pump, it just will not be crazy efficient. No need for electric back up as it will always be less efficient. Regarding annual efficiency Adam 12 months scop of DHW is 4.7 Regarding national grid - recharge water at night when the grid has surplus of energy and not much to do with it - so they sell it for 1/3 of the price.
@@UrbanPlumbers yeah, you've got to realise we've had record warm winters recently. I have lived through a couple of cold winters, look up 1963. I store heat when the wind blows, on a few occasions I have earned a little credit, have a hybrid system and use resistance when necessary. There is no solar in the UK heating season, which could contribute to heating. The government needs to build up to date gas plants which are more efficient. Just imagine a prolonged high pressure event in winter, no sun, no wind. Even recently 3/4 of our electricity came from either gas or imports. I watch the mix every day and at times it's gas and nuclear doing the heavy lifting. I'm a farmer, I feel the rush for solar is misguided, solar can't power a single house without that energy is stored for when the sun doesn't shine. My son's partner can exhaust an ordinary dhw cylinder with one shower so I fitted an extra 300l cylinder. For 30 odd years I have used Economy 7...but that's dead now.....EV's? I'm an old man and have had 5 kids in the family and you get through a bit of hot water. I do have a heat pump, 16kw, the plate on the side says something like 3.8kw input. When I first started using it I pressed the instantaneous power button and it was drawing 9.6kw. I don't know about the heat pump being "green" it was myself that was "green". What I have decided to do is to reinstall the oil boiler and use the heat pump when the leccy is cheap. There's no way I could afford to run the heat pump continuously, it hardly ever goes below 6.5 kw. The underfloor works fairly well but my rooms need 3.5kw and the idea of radiators is hopeless, I would need 6 large double rads per room. What I have found is Panasonic FCU's which would do the job at 35°c, there is a catch, they're about £1,000 a piece, 8 rooms with 2 apiece would be a fair chunk of cash. If home batteries ever become safe and reliable and have a 30 year lifespan that could make a dent in our carbon, solar roof and decent battery people could be self sufficient for half the year. During the winter the battery would help the Grid. Perhaps we could go onto low voltage dc for lights tv fridges etc which would be more efficient and use the inverter for heavy loads. A lot of electricity goes to heating the atmosphere in the transmission and distribution so avoiding these losses and less need for upgrading infrastructure would be a win win!
Just now we are on 45% gas and 20% imports. Say electricity has a negative CoP of 3.
@@jonjo6886 You might want to get your facts straight. Not sure what your point is about cold winters, was below -20C for 3 days straight here in January and my heat pumps still heated the house and provided hot water. There is solar in the UK heating season, it might not cover much, but for rooftop solar there is seasonal offsetting - your excess generation in summer can at least help cover the cost of your winter usage. You're also fantasising about the "but sometimes" with it being very cold and no sun nor wind. Even if gas was providing 100% of electricity all year round, on average, a properly installed heat pump will have used less gas than burning it in the home. Bottom line is, it's not, so from a green perspective, any generation by other sources is a bonus. a 16kW heat pump should have around 8kW on the plate. If you pressed a button for instant power then it's likely there's an additional immersion element kicking in. Heat pumps shouldn't be run in an "on demand" fashion as that is when they are least efficient. If you get an oil boiler installed then the person doing it will be breaking the building regulations, as a less efficient system cannot replace the existing system. If your heat pump hardly ever goes below 6.5kw then it was installed or setup wrong. My whole house's electricity (including cooking, PC use etc) for January averaged less than 4.2kW with the outside temperate spending 2/3rds of the month below 0C
Hi Ben, thanks for taking an interest. I like to get my facts right, just looked up electricity in Sweden and 41% hydro and about 30% nuclear. Yesterday in UK we had 45% gas and 20% imports. My place has absolutely huge heat loss. We never heat the bedrooms or bathrooms save for a radiant electric in one bathroom. We only heat rooms we are using and rely mainly on burning wood. When it is windy I can get credit for using electricity. If there was anywhere near enough solar in winter people would be self sufficient in heating but virtually nobody is. As far as I can see however much solar and wind we have in UK, we need back-up. I would like a solar/battery system but.....for a start I'm almost 80 years old and the technology isn't quite good enough. Electric cars aren't viable at present but they will get there. Batteries need to be half the weight they are at present and also the fire risk is far too high.
So would the extra efficiency of these tanks mean we could use a smaller ASHP?
For those of us with combi's what would be a game changer is a super efficient cylinder in the shape of a combi boiler which can be wall hung.
The mini store was meant to do that.
@@Felix-st2ue At 475mm deep, the mini-store wouldn't fit where my combi is wall-mounted.
Thanks for all the great content! Who would you recommend to design/supply an underfloor heating system?
given the coil is extended to the lower, is there any replacement annode so it doesn't corrode to match many old coppers that run 20 years plus?
Who scratched the pink minstore, it was perfect when it left the show.😊
60 minutes - 1 hour! Marie would make a great news presenter lol.
Excellent video I look forward to perusing the OE data. It is great that Newark have adopted the HG design(s) and not at all surprising that other manufacturers have followed and anyone who understands production engineering will know why. Very impressive performance figures all round. But there is an elephant in the room. Newark cannot be producing these and selling these at ‘shop average’ heat pump cylinder prices. So the elephant question has to be at a say 10% reduction in running costs (compared to a Joule HP cylinder) what is the break even point (in years) to affray the additional capital cost of the HG cylinder? (Not a Luddite negative question).
It’s is going to be years. Possibly even 10-12
It’s is going to be years. Possibly even 10-12
How come you had the heating on in July? I notice Adam’s daily COP (and thus position in the top of the COPs) benefits from running his heating at night…
It comes on when outside temperature drops below 16c
Why has a heat pump installer got “logs” stacked in his garage?
To burn them in a log burner - what else would you stack them for?
I reckon 25 min reheat scop of 3.8…
It's great to see Adam contributing to our industry according to the great principles of socialism. We need a lot more of this kind of action. Fantastic video you are definitely number one Of your videos
It's great to see Adam contributing to our industry according to the great principles of socialism. We need a lot more of this kind of action. Fantastic video you are definitely number one Of your videos
By "socialism" do you mean that you will own nothing and be happy😏
@@geoffaries socialism mean to own everything
@@geoffaries no I mean about shared ownership of everything. It was really the very catalyst that resulted in heat geek. I was running events for Eco technicians free of charge as I have received my full education as an engineer free of charge from a socialist policy of the 1970s government
How are botg you and Heat Geek not feeding your data into Home Assistant and analysing it there?
Looking tp install a proper cylinder for my parents place. Its got solar and a gas boiler, i was leaning towards a valiant or viessman cylinder. This would just be way out of their price range. What would you recommend?
Joule High Gain or regular Joupe
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks a bunch! Specs look good, great price too.
10kwh store. 5kw heat pump. 2hrs. COP 5.5 at this time of year. Edit: Cold inlet temp was probably near 15C, DT 30 so 7kwh store? 1h24m if peak output is 5kw.
Don’t forget that with 20c outside a 5kw heat pump outputs 8kW!
I can tell "selling out" is a joke, but normally a joke has some kind of underlying truth that is being made fun of. Has something happened that is relevant to the industry?
Nice one again, good to see the cooperation of you and Adam, both geeks 👍
Jeez, 6m2 puts my puny Megaflo with 0.79m2 into perspective 😮 I always wondered why higher surface area coils weren’t “a thing” when I researched into using solar evacuated tubes many years ago - it was still a niche back then but it seems things haven’t moved on with the legacy OEMs that probably still just use variations of the same designs with minor tweaks rather than full on changes to coil surface areas - cynically also probably down to cost as provided the temperature is cranked up and the recovery time reasonable they couldn’t care less about efficiency I imagine 🙄
Why would manufacturers spend more on materials - 95% of installers and customers only look at the price and maybe insulation rating - that’s it. Hard to shift a 6m2 coil cylinder that costs much more unless you can show people what it does !
@@UrbanPlumbers exactly, it's self-fulfilling unfortunately, plus the cylinder is probably the least "glamorous" part of an install in their eyes and the coil is invisible so "who cares?" as it were - on the other hand everyone loves shiny new heat pumps that they can tell their mates about or show the neighbours, unlike the poor old cylinder tucked away in the airing cupboard 😏
Nah, kettle and electric shower is more efficient if you just have a modest shower and do the dishes in a smaller washbowl by a bigger rinse bowl, if you don't need to have baths ect... If by efficient you mean just "consuming less energy and materials" rather than moving extra kwh of heat around with a given amount of electric kwh.
This took lees than 1.5kwh's of electricity to heat the tank. My electric shower draws 9kw so unless this tank is emptied after a 10 minute shower, the tank wins.
@@bobsmith-dn1xw Come again, your electric shower draws 9kw? What like in an hour? How long do you shower for at "full blast?" So now checking mine with the monitor and bunging up to full is indeed drawing almost 9kw, the setting I actually use it at though is about 4kw... I will use about 5-10lt perhaps 15lts at the very max to shower as I don't see the point of leaving it running while I lather and scrub ect, nor particularly enjoy it running constantly kicking up extra moisture into the home than need be. So I usually only need about 1.5kwh a day total including water for dishes/showering, hotplate cooking, charging devices, refrigeration, lighting ect. Laundry days when averaged out. The tank looses for me basically. 2kwh a day is plenty overhead. About 540 kwh one years use I believe a recent bill stated. How many kwh do you use? Do you even know, or do you just know what money the bill says?
@ericritchie6783 tank heated to 45c with 20 ambient has almost no loses - probably below 0.5kWh / 24h. It also costs 8p to fully recharge the cylinder at cheaper tariff using heat pump so should be 10x cheaper than using electric shower for 20min a day
@ericritchie6783 tank heated to 45c with 20 ambient has almost no loses - probably below 0.5kWh / 24h. It also costs 8p to fully recharge the cylinder at cheaper tariff using heat pump so should be 10x cheaper than using electric shower for 20min a day
@@UrbanPlumbers So you need for the shower to be running full blast for 20 minutes in each case? How many liters is that? Let's please be more accurate to the requirements here. See my last comment, I don't sniff at 0.5kwh as an amount of energy.
Thanks
Thank you 🙏
Thanks for sharing! Would be very interested to see what settings you use with the HG cylinder to maximise efficiency. What about when you connect a secondary return , how does that affect stratification??? Presumably this also disturbs the stratification layers?
Yes, it really affects the cop in a negative way on some of my installations
They should add a long dip tub to the secondary return on the Heat Geek Cylinder. I have a 300l heat geek cylinder and am a little disappointed that they didn’t think about this issue on the new Newark cylinder.
@myatix1 no - it needs to be connected as high as possible not taken to the bottom of the cylinder
I need to replace my cylinder on my system boiler. Could I use one of these? I am intending to move to a heat pump in a few years time.
Yes, it would work great with gas boilers and keep them in condensing mode through the cycle. Mind you this will cost you 3 x the price of a regular unvented
I don't know how common is my situation, but my space constrains is forcing me to use horizontal DHW cylinder. Can Adam's design be emulated with plated heat exchanger and horizontal cylinder? Adam mentioned breafly about using separeted heat exchanger, but I can't find more information on how to design such system with horizontal cylinder. Any suggest where to start?
Lack of stratification and also distortion of plate loading would make it very hard to get decent efficiency in horizontal cylinders
I have a horizontal cylinder because of lack of height and space, I always wondered when I bought it if it would make any difference if I had 2 small vertical cylinders that would fit in the space instead of the larger horizontal cylinder in regards to stratification?
6m2 does make the 2.4m2 in my Vaillant HP cylinder look positively anaemic! Although being a gas user that still feels reasonably generous compared to the outdated thinking & designs that are out there. Shame the chap has posted on here without actually naming the illusive equivalent to this fresh design. @paulcornock8287 no comment?
I like those Vaillant cylinders and get good cops on them.
60 minutes, 3.6... Nice hair cut!
I expected similar myself
@@UrbanPlumbers what a perm ? 🤣.. great insight from you both as always , sitting with other fuels at the minute but fascinated with tec and speed at which it’s changing .
We've had our 250l Heatgeek cylinder in for nearly 3 months and are averaging a CoP of 4.7 for dhw only. I might add, that's at night during our cheap electric period, so it's costing about 10p/day to heat. Couldnt be happier.
That’s a mad cop for night heating as it is much colder at night. What size is your heat pump?
@@UrbanPlumbers 7kW Vaillant.
Adam is growing on me, fair play for giving the manufacturers a lead and not making any money
Don’t worry respectable manufacturers know how to make an extremely efficient product… but if you make the best product at 40 to 60% more than the competition you will risk to get out of business… or to be bought by a high volume manufacturer… like VW bought Bugatti for example…
@@mihaiachim5299 While the respectable manufacturers know how to make an extremely efficient product, they don't. Adam explained the reason why - intertia. The big manufacturers sell in volume, and the UK marketplace generally isn't very demanding, so there is no commercial reason for the manufacturers to improve their product. Newark Cylinders have a major opportunity here, and could put other competitors out of business.
@@tlangdon12 they don’t because they all have to compete in a price sensitive market…. There are very few people for whom money is not an issue… Not all the people want to invest a lot of money in a heatpump heating system … For some people the priority could be a bigger PV System or nicer looking rims for their car… most of families budgets are not infinite… and the manufacturer’s have to adjust to the market needs …
Kudos to Adam for pushing the industry to increase efficiency. He would be crazy if he’s not charging a licensing fee for using the Heat Geek name, though. The cylinder can’t be that much more to manufacture than a regular one, yet the price is quite high. Someone is making money somewhere (as they should, really!)
@HowardBurgess have you seen 6m2 coil !!?