Harstem did a fantastic video or two with printf specifically to show how to defend cannon rushes. It was mind boggling how printf would point out every possibility he would look at (depending on the map), how drastically different he would approach the situation (even on the same map) against each race, and how each race should respond to the different variations (even on the same map). printf would also talk about how even if the initial rush was held, how he could transition into a couple of different cheeses depending on both his own pylon placement and the opponents building placement. I was completely blown away by the depth of cannon rushes.

@asdfasdf-mn8iu

Жыл бұрын

I mean, that video was just on PvP cannon rushes, for which they are by far the strongest. Vs T it's kinda bad bc of early marines and vs zerg as well because of creep. Usually cannon rushes are used vs Z to contain them and then kill with immortals or stargate.

@enriquegarciacota3914

Ай бұрын

Printf made me respect cannon rush. I still get bothered by it, but now I respect it.

Creator's reaction time on the first rush is amazing. A split second after the pylon gets placed, his probes start marching towards it. Must have smelled the cheese before it arrived

i love how rocker uses his skills to find holes in the meta. its very similar to has just not as high level.

@Konranjyoutai

Жыл бұрын

i love how rocker abuses the meta and poor balance to get wins. FTFY

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

@@Konranjyoutai mad cuz bad. cope and seethe harder. game is balanced

@Konranjyoutai

Жыл бұрын

@@shurik_skalolaz 4.9k is bad? huh.

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

@@Konranjyoutai yes

@Konranjyoutai

Жыл бұрын

@@shurik_skalolaz lol. what mmr are you kid?

this was very entertaining to watch Pig, thx for the uploads!

Pig I am pretty sure he canceled the double pylon to build the cannon back at home because right as he canceled it a second cannon went down in the production tab.

This was a lot of fun to watch! Thank you!

@PiGstarcraft

Жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

gumiho would have totally lost to printf in that scenario

@tomhe286

Жыл бұрын

Definetly.

DAMN! He had him at game 3 but let the CVs escape! ahhh Its hard to believe they make that kind of mistake while still being "good" enough to beat Creator. Really strange!

@Leonhart_93

Жыл бұрын

That's only because terran has is on easy mode vs canon rushes. Even if you make a fatal mistake, you can just lift and relocate.

@logancraft1883

Жыл бұрын

@@Leonhart_93 not really at least at higher level the time spent flying is soooo long compared aginst better players however I do think it is easy mode due to fast marines however there are a lot of cheeses that work great

@Leonhart_93

Жыл бұрын

@@logancraft1883 Vs canon rushes it is easy mode. A chance to lift your buildings around to save them while the others are dead then and there. Also repairs can buy a lot of time while the others just have to take it. Easier wall offs on the high ground and mules in case you are behind in scvs is also really good. It's crazy how many advantages terrans have vs cannon rushes, they have to be way worse than the opponent to lose under those conditions. In silver league they may lose still vs cannon rushes as they are clueless to those advantages.

@Wilde_Wolfe

Жыл бұрын

@@Leonhart_93 Well said! Both make good points but I get it. That is just A LOT of advantages.

Certainly a reason those pockets have skulls and crossbones on them. ;-)

the accent swapping is doing my head in lol

This is awesome. I don't watch alot of games (mostly play co-op) and in his say I'm super impressed with the sophistication of these Canon rushes

Lmao. Loved watching this. Cheers~

Could you as Terran keep mining and ignore the rush in the main, then right when the cannons warp in you float everything to the natural or another spot and then marine rush the protoss base? Seems like the investment at that point once they've warped would be to devastating to come back from

@finale3853

Жыл бұрын

unless they wall you in

Petition to get florencio in every tournament so each person has to play in a game of 3 to move up in each bracket.

There are so many times I say: "I really wish my terran opponent let me to go 84 drones with only a scripted single reaper into 6-8 hellion harass and 1 or 2 banshees for the first six minutes of the game like in GSL." Its as if as "pro sc" has an unwritten "No rush 5 minutes" rule that you never experience on the ladder, then someone like Has or Maple comes along and throws that rule out the window and the top pros have heart attacks and lose and mess up their build orders like the rest of us lol.

@BroadwayRonMexico

Жыл бұрын

When one makes their living off of SC, they don't like to take risks or deviate from what they know works. Cheese/rush/early all-in builds are considered to be too risky, since if defended against, it's usually gg right there. And even if they're initially successful, they often struggle with follow-ups since they don't practice the cheese builds much Few in the pro circuit have the balls to take those kind of risks as a result

@joshuafischer684

Жыл бұрын

Korean players in particular are not great at dealing with cheese. Koreans tend to be extremely mechanically adept, getting their timings and build orders perfect, but when their opponent doesn't follow the same concept (macro into deathball), their brains short-circuit.

I heard the uvalde shooter played this game.

Didn't Has also cheese a lot with partial cannon rushes or stuff like that?

@PiGstarcraft

Жыл бұрын

Yeah he hasn't been doing as many recently but is still one of the most feared pro cannon rushers

You sir look like Tony Khan from AEW. 💪

If skytoss isn't enough there is the cannon rush. Protoss is bullshit. Bunker rush's are annoying too but take more time and money.

what about harstem?

@PiGstarcraft

Жыл бұрын

haven't seen his cannon rush defense lately, I imagine with all his beating GMs with stupid stuff practice he's pretty good at adapting! He's also the OG pro to pay cannon rushers for coaching to teach him the nasty spots back in the day!

spending 650+ minerals to take out the enemy's nexus seems kind of iffy though. Couldn't it be countered with just sending out a zealot or two and building a new nexus as soon as the constructions start? There'd probably be some lost mining time, but not necessarily be behind; certainly not dead.

@HiroTeaShi

Жыл бұрын

The enemy will not be mining efficiently because they pulling workers to deal with the rush. So the investment can pay off suprisingly fast. Even if they bail and build a nexus elsewhere, they're not going to be mining at all until the second nexus is up giving the cannon rusher the economic and timing advantage. And rushes happen too fast to get 2 zealots out typically

Unless you can snipe the probe, once it's started how the heck are you even supposed to defend against that first canon rush?

@shadowz_sc734

Жыл бұрын

I think you have to use the probes to block the pylons before they get placed.

@jumpnit3121

Жыл бұрын

I think you should after pulling the first couple probes to take out the pylon next to the ramp send one on a patrol path behind mineral line (or most likely spot for cannons to be on that map) to block placement as much as possible to avoid a wall off attempt. Not an expert tho and that is certainly a lot to handle in a 5 sec window.

@ashra8281

Жыл бұрын

You either need to be so close a pylon can't be placed. Or you notice the probe handing there you send another probe our before the 2nd and 3rd pylons are placed

@diglettrio

Жыл бұрын

You need to make sure you get in a blocking probe when its behind your minerals.

@tommydashed4205

Жыл бұрын

You just block with a worker.

i am so excited watching this video, you have no idea 🍆

Gumiho teaching that macro prevails, cheese fails

Wow rocker deserved that win

I have beat many cannon rush's, but there is nothing respectable about cannon rush's.

Cannon rushes suck at being fun to play against. Strat thats too easy to do relative to how hard it is to beat. (Even at the pro level, that first cannon rush is essentially completely unstoppable).

@Amoeby

Жыл бұрын

If you know about that spot you must send a probe or two to patrol that spot.

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

its very stoppable. its just pros don't respect it. if you look at mid gm or high gm they stop cannon rushes way better.

@Nilruin

Жыл бұрын

This is the problem with people at low levels of play. Cannon rushes are absolutely stoppable, and pros can stop them, they just don't because they either don't respect it, or are out of practice since it's a super rare thing to see past a certain MMR.

@nanowasabi4421

Жыл бұрын

Agree with them being unfun, hard disagree with them being unstoppable. If they were anywhere near unstoppable, we'd see them in half of the pro games involving Toss. I can win against cannon rushes. The problem is that, even if I win, it isn't fun.

@Cowclops

Жыл бұрын

@@nanowasabi4421 I think you misunderstood on that one - I just meant the first game in this series had a nearly unstoppable cannon rush. I frequently have no trouble stopping cannon rushes against non-smurfs and "occasional" cheesers. What I don't like is that even scouting it doesn't guarentee a win, because they often force you to pull so many resource gatherers that you can't defend whatever their follow up is either. And if you don't pull enough you just lose right then and there. I don't like it because the counter is "perfect scv/probe/drone micro AND hope they mess up somewhere, and hope they mess up early enough in the process that you're not a dead man walking." Its basically the only strat that can be put into effect before you can pop out actual offensive units. But its not unstoppable.

Cannon rushes are for cowards

Hmmm... Cheeese...

I have best many cannon rush's, but there is nothing respectable about cannon rush's.

love how low skill players can get so high in ladder by purely cannon rushing, totally fun and not a waste of everyones time at all.

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

rocker is not low skill he also plays macro at the same level. hw just uses his reputation to find holes in people's play

@loraxak

Жыл бұрын

Also it doesn't waste much time cannon rush games are over in like 5 min.

@WilliamDunn1

Жыл бұрын

There's no way Rocker beats Creator in macro game series. He probably wouldn't even qualify for GSL

@antthehckyplayer

Жыл бұрын

@@WilliamDunn1 doesn't mean he is low skill who got high on ladder with cannons. Come on now - so would the overwhelming majority of GM on every server. Don't potshot ppl who are way way better than you. Toodles!

@antthehckyplayer

Жыл бұрын

Just gonna say he is not a pure cannon rusher. Chill the hate boner

I'm convinced if sc2 was slowed down like 50x most pro player would struggle to beat some platinum or even gold players. The execution of macro, micro and multitasking is like so much more important to getting at the top than any strategical or tactical decision. (if the game was 50x slower it'd also suck but that's not the point =p)

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

also understanding

@allanshpeley4284

Жыл бұрын

There's definitely more "real time" to SC2 than "strategy".

@shurik_skalolaz

Жыл бұрын

@@allanshpeley4284 really not true

@MsHojat

Жыл бұрын

If it was slowed down 50x nobody would play the game at all, lol. What you're saying is equivalent to "if we moved the targets to just 1 foot away, beginners will be just as accurate as experts". Also keep in mind that thinking of tactics and strategy on the fly is an important aspect of the game as well. Slowing down the game would give more time to think too, not just for actions.

@Laezar1

Жыл бұрын

@@MsHojat I said it " (if the game was 50x slower it'd also suck but that's not the point =p) " I'm aware it would be a shit game, it's just a thought experiment. My point is that it's a strategy game where I'm often fairly unimpressed by the strategical capabilities of most of the best players (most not all). I know the game has more nuances and being real time adds unique challenges. Though I just kinda wish the best of the best would blow our mind more often with unique strategy or smart adaptation to a chaotic situation and less often with "woah they clicked so good". But I realized that's a personal preference.

The fact that you are still able to make cannon rushes in this manner just shows what a garbage game this is.

@logancraft1883

Жыл бұрын

wtf is this a salt mines play or something

disgusting. and not in a good way