Epic, it’s funny how the deeper you get into photography the more complex the tricks and techniques become.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

😂 you’re so right!

@hivac

Ай бұрын

Yes!

@dasczwo

Ай бұрын

and you thought its to get expensive gear, an i shoot raw tshirt, switch on autofocus and hammer out thousands of shots through you big ol fat 500mm…get some tb drives and sort pics out for days… then this guy comes along and talks about tripods. oh live

That plate, in the US at least is known as a nodal rail. Great tutorial and well worth watching.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Cool, thanks! I think the box I got it in also calls it a nodal rail, but a lot of photographers I speak to also refer to it as a rail clamp. "What's in a name? That which we call a [nodal rail], by any other name would slide so neat" - apologies to the English wordsmith.

You need to be sure your nodal rail isn't too long, if using a wide angle lens. I was using nodal rail that barely extended beyond the length of a 12-24mm lens, and the nodal rail showed up in frame at the 12mm range. Now I have 3 nodal rails. 100mm, 140mm and 200mm. Or, if wanting to have just one rail, you can get a double sided rail/plate without a built-in clamp and buy a double clamp that you can place anywhere you want on the rail.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Yup, I mentioned to another commenter who is using short fuji prines that he might have to take an angle grinder to it to make sure it doesn’t stick into the frame (particularly when shooting vertical)

Extremely well explained. Thank you. Not a wasted word. You've also included considerations, for example the geometric shapes issue, that I haven't heard in other pano videos.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

You're very welcome! Thanks for watching and for the feedback.

Emil this was an amazingly composited and well thought video. Funniest part: I was looking for a good pano process vid a fortnight ago, right before you published yours. Thank you !

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks! Glad you found it useful. Yup, this the simplest way to do it in my opinion… originally learned about it from a 90s era Practical Photography issue that had it as a DIY project with a wooden rail

I also make a lot of panoramas. Often hand-held taken, and stitch with Hugin (free software). Often, everything is ok. But sometimes, I had this issue. I heard this word "parallax" but didn't knew what it was, and how to solve it. This was indeed with barrier, or geometric shapes, as you said. So thank's a lot, you've explained it very well, and gave the elements to solve this. Thanks again.

@emilvonmaltitz

20 күн бұрын

Thanks! Glad it made some sense. Hugin is really impressive for free software. I started with it years ago when I was a student.

This was extremely interesting, thanks for explaining parallax and the concept so well

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Thanks Alex! I’m glad it made sense. I sometimes confuse even myself when trying to describe these things 😂

Thank you once again, Emil, fine presentation!

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Thanks Martin! I appreciate that. Thanks for watching

Another "thumbs up" for the Leofoto CEX tripods. I own two. HOWEVER, an alternative that I've actually come to prefer (in some instances) is the iFootage Gazelle TC6S. In addition to an in-built leveling head, the iFootage tripod includes a very useful center column and large, positive acting lever locks on the legs. Carbon fiber, of course. Excellent video, Emll.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Interesting range of tripods. We don’t get them here at the moment. I’m not a fan of lever leg locks, but I know plenty of others who do. Of course you can add a leveling base to any centre column tripod from any brand, but it’s nice to see it included with the iFootage.

Very nicely done. I’ve seen others use a set up like you described but I didn’t know why because I’ve been able to make panoramas without any such rig. But now I do and, in fact, the idea of a close up panorama is intriguing. I think I’ll give it a try. Sounds fun.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks! Yup, as I mention in the video, it is not essential to use this rig (and many photographers who insist that the only way is with a full nodal rig are probably trying to justify their own purchase of the big and heavy, and expensive, nodal rigs). If all you need is a single row pano, then using a rail to find the optical centre/entrance pupil/etc ensures that everything aligns neatly without too much computational wizardry from the stitching software.

Excellent presentation of solid information. Your pans are gorgeous. Thank you so much for this useful video.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

It’s an absolute pleasure Michael. Thanks for watching!

love this. I have been using one for years. also have another one that is two part that I use for focus stacking for detailed product photography

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Brilliant. When you say two part, do you mean like two axis?

wonderful. I learned something today!

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Awesome! I’ve achieved something today. Thanks for watching.

Excellent video. Thank you.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

It’s a pleasure Frank. Thanks for watching

Excellent explanation and although ideal, you acknowledged that you don’t absolutely need all that kit. I have a Nodal Ninja but tend to use my ball head on my levelling base most often.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks Stephen. Yes, very often, if not most of the time the equipment isn’t necessary. I’ve used the full pano head on numerous occasions and for the vast majority of the time it’s complete overkill. Like you I usually just use my leveling base and nothing more.

Thanks Emil, that’s a very good explanation. 😊

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

My pleasure!

Super great information and awesome explanation. Thank you.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks Marshall!

Wow, finally new stuff to learn!

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

There’s always new stuff to learn 🙌👍

@bacnic

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz in a world where every photography related youtube channel talks about the same stuff over and over, the optical center is a new concept for me. thank you!

Thanks a lot. An issue with tilting downwards is, that you do not rotate around the optical center anymore. You would have to re-adjust the rail to the optical center back to the vertical rotating axis.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

For multi row stitches yes, for a single row it’s a non-issue.

Great tutorial, helps a lot. I have a gearhead with build in rotation-plate by leofoto, that goes on top of my ball head. Looks a bit chunky, but levelling is really easy this way, simply using the ball head. Fantastic images!

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

The G4 by any chance. It’s a great head. I’d suggest getting a leveling base beneath that if you want to do single row stitches tilted down (or up). But yup, the G4 is so simple to level out. Love that head!

very good and informative video. You just taught me some valuable information which led me to understand some issues ive had with my 20mm prime. Until now, i didnt understand why only longer lenses worked. i am really looking forward to experimenting with this gathered information, this weekend. and now, i can use my beloved 20mm for some terrific panos! Thank You.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Good luck! It should work and you’ll get the pano right!

Very informative and helpful

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Glad you think so! Thanks

I used to mark the nodal points on my lenses (zooms were a pain!) and used an adjustable macro plate (and an l bracket) but the stitching software has come a long way and it is now less important (except with things like detailed alignment ie rooftops and obvious horizontal/vertical detail).

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Been there and did the same when I first started. I agree that it’s less important these days… the first video I did on panos was actually how it’s not necessary… you can imagine how that went down with the armchair critics.

@secretgoldfish

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz Haha I can imagine that, this vid thankfully covered it all, the warehouse example was a great one to show where nodal point becomes more important.

Great vid mate, well worth the sub 💪🏻

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Awesome, thanks!

I try to keep my close up Panos with my Fuji Primes as that makes it much easier, but thanks you did a good job explaining the procedure and potential benefit

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching. If you aren’t using a system like this and you’re using the x system primes and want to try this, look for a slightly shorter nodal rail than the NR-200…or else be prepared to slice some of the rail off with an angle grinder. Lenses like the Laowa 9mm (which has its optical centre marked I think) are so short that the 200mm rail butts into the edge of the frame when shooting in the vertical position.

That was a great tutorial. I have the nodal slide from Newer and set the camera up a few years ago. I just never got around to using it properly. As you say, you don't always need one. But now I see where it will come in as an essential and can work on those images. PS I have visited RSA and Kwazu Natal a few times, but now over 20 years ago. I miss the beauty and would love to return with a Digital camera sometime. Subscribed straight away and look forward to seeing more of your work.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Many thanks! Hope to see you sometime this side of the equator again.

I found now your nice video, I use the same tripod and nodal plate! I wish I had more money for a lightweight RRS tripod for added stability but so far so good apart from some windy situations

@emilvonmaltitz

2 күн бұрын

Thanks for watching. With that setup you should be absolutely fine. Enjoy the panos :)

Great presentation, I have the tools you listed for doing panorama shots, wasn't sure about the centering the camera sensor, I was thinking it was where the camera's sensor was, or, the center of the camera.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Excellent. 🙏

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks!

Gimbals used for long kenses are also great since it gives the Y-axis for making a larger stitches.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

If you want to do multi-row, absolutely. For what I shoot, single row is more than enough.

If you tilted the Ballhead down the Nodal Point is changing. You have to place a Rotator on the top of the ballhead and Rotate than. Maybe you can stitch the panorama together, but if you show this all the people here you have to do it right. A better ballhead is from Novoflex Germany you can place them upside down on the Threepod and you can rotate on the upperside.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

For multi row stitches yes. For a single row it’s a non-issue

good morning, thank you for the compliment. was coping to accept it before coffee. but i have flaws too. great vid thank you! ill try it out.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 күн бұрын

Great stuff! hope it works for you.

Hoping this cures the itch for a higher resolution sensor for a while. being stuck at 20MP for 15 years is annoying and as a rare hobby it's so hard to justify the 40MP+ sensors out there, especially since on the Canon side its literally only the R5 currently and i'd like to keep using the couple EF lenses i have with my Canon Film cameras so swapping system isn't really an option :(

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

You’ll definitely get more resolution this way. I know what you mean about justifying the cost for an upgrade. Gear has gotten expensive!

One trick to taking hand-held panos is to pivot around one foot. You plant one foot and rotate the other foot as you take each overlapped image. This emulates pivoting using the physical center of the lens, not necessarily the nodal point. It's not exact, but close enough for reasonable distant panos.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Cool idea! I’ll give that a go the next time I’m doing a handheld stitch. Thanks

If you do not want to change or add weight to you tripod, have a look at the Arca Swiss P0. It is an inverted ball head with a rotating base at the top.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Inverted ball heads work well for the lightweight setups, but they run into the same problems as a standard head as soon as you tilt the camera up or down. I do like the fact that they shave weight nicely if you want a pano with a centered horizon.

@abacab1701

Ай бұрын

​@@emilvonmaltitz That answers my question. I am unable to tilt the camera once i have levelled the head. But also never thought you could take a pano with the camera tilted for some strange reason.

Good tip about using the mobile phone. Thanks. I often shoot waterfalls which require more than one row of images (if it's a tall cascade), so I use a Neewer full gimbal head that allows measured tilt angle as well as pan angle but I too often manage hand held panoramas. One point you did not mention is that your rail might be too long for wider angle optics and thus appear in the image. An excellent explanation of measuring the nodal point. Thanks. subscribed.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Yes, for a stitch with multiple rows a full nodal head is the most accurate solution. I’ve had a discussion with another photographer about length of rail. It’s a good point. Using my 16-35 and 18mm f2.8 I’ve managed fine… on a DSLR. Mirrorless folks might need a smaller rail, or get comfortable with using an angle grinder to shorten the rail. As an aside, I have used the rail with a 12mm Laowa for a 360 degree room view, and the plate did intrude. But with that full setup (and that specific purpose) it’s easy to just not use that section of each image.

@bernym4047

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz Thank you for the comprehensive reply. 😀

Good advice. Thanks. Can I shoot 360° spherical panoramas using this equipment and method, or do I need some specialised bracket and stuff?

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

For spherical you’ll need the full nodal rig. This method is best for single row panoramas (although theoretically if you have a wide enough fish eye lens it could work if you can manage with a single row)

I do this frequently with my landscapes. I like to preserve aspect, often using mid-tele to slightly compress - too retain the drama. You. ca. get some great results. Multi row and focus stacking (affording a more open lens). But you are right it is a lot of work and any movement can potentially. ruin the shot (wind or changing light). Oh well. This is the cross I bear. When works though ... it uniquely emmersive.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Exactly! Although with mid tele stuff I’ll ignore the nodal rail usually. I’m sure some purists would cry foul here, but unless you have a very close foreground, the whole setup from the video is unnecessary

@marksharman8029

2 ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz yes exactly. A good point I forgot to make - I like a foreground feature when I can get it. All tee more drama.

One additional, perhaps two items to mention would be to use Manual exposure and manually focusing the lens.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

That’s a good point. If I remember correctly I mention this in the first of my pano videos.

@janfrosty3392

2 ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz I have not seen any of your previous pano. video so I thought worth pointing it out.

@musiqueetmontagne

2 ай бұрын

And set a WB to a non-auto one.

Regarding the comments about the tilt/nodal--Maybe adjust nodal after tilting?

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Hi Stephen. If it's a single row it actually doesn't matter. You're still finding the axis of rotation. The best advise I can give is for photographers to try it themselves. I use this technique and it works. It is possible you'll find that you'll get better results from shifting the rail after tilting, but also after focusing. A lot of wide-angle lenses have quite signifcant focus breathing...but to be honest we're splitting hairs so finally at that point that it won't make a difference in your final image I suspect.

@stephendouglas4545

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz I agree with you. Funny, right after watching your video I watched this one and Hudson talks about how, with modern software, we don't really need to worry like we used to about having all the gear right. kzread.info/dash/bejne/nKKpx9qeksWWkqg.html

This was very informative and eye-opening, thank you! How would this compare to doing it with a tilt-shift lens?

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Tilt-shift is definitely more accurate since it’s two photographs of the same image circle. Swivelling the camera will change your shooting angle for each image. I used to own the Nikkor 28mm Shift lens purely for making panorama shots. Really enjoyed it, but it dod have an issue with vignetting which was a little more complicated getting rid of than simply pressing a button on the RAW converter.

A 50 year career in photography here. The parallax error as you call it, to me, helps greatly in creating and displaying "depth" when panning. My opinion,

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

It does make stitching more complicated

Great video thanks. Can I ask. If I get my tripod level or use a leveling base. Does using a ball head give the potential for an error if its not level? So even you turn to shoot each pano frame, the tripod might ge level but the ball head may not be so you could run into problems? Cheers

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

In theory if you use the internal camera level it shouldn’t make a difference. If you don’t level the camera using that (or if that is inaccurate then you might run into problems. I haven’t had any issues so far though.

Aside from establishing the nodal point of my lens I always overlap slightly less than one third of each successive frame and turn off auto exposure to ensure accurate lighting results. This always seems to work out pretty well for me.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

I think if, as a photographer, you’re worried about parallax, then you’ve gotten past knowing about manual everything. I mention it in the first video on shooting panos. Focus, exposure, white balance, everything has to be set to manual so that everything stays consistent exposure wise. Even though I use a CPL in the video I’d be cautious about using one where there’s sky involved as that shifts the exposure as you swivel the camera.

Nice video, to be lighter I suggest you replace your ball head and leveling base with an ARCA-SWISS Monoball p0

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the suggestion. Will certainly look, but here in SA Arca-Swiss isn’t available (without international courier which can be prohibitively expensive)

Or use a lens with shift movements, mount the lens to the tripod and shift the camera body behind the lens over the image circles for the dimension of the panorama.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Yup, mentioned in another comment thread. But that is somewhat more expensive a solution. I used to have a 28 shift lens. Really enjoyed shooting with it, bar for strong vignetting in the final stitch

@thedarkslide

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz There really isn't that much choice for high quality shift/tilt-shift lenses. Yes, Fuji is in that medium format game now and those are probably the best at the moment. But you can't go wrong with the Canon 24mm TSE L II.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

@@thedarkslide that is an excellent lens… worth owning a Canon for possibly 😂 I have a friend who had one (till it was stolen) and was blown away with how good it was.

​@nuwanda923 You beat me to it: the axes of rotation (vertical and horizontal) both have to go through the PUPIL POINT (of the front element). That is NOT the same as either nodal point, but, as you said, you can find it by experiment. I was amused that the example Emil gave (mauve flower pan) showed very clearly he had NOT found the pupil point successfully - the leaves of the background moved left-right compared to the closer flower. Maybe that's what he intended to show and I was confused. The thing about parallax is that it affects the ability to stitch _either_ near or distant objects - you'll be able to do one or the other but not both. I love having a levelling head on a tripod. In fact I have a heavy Manfrotto video tripod I've modded for critical stills use. But most of my panos simply involve a lightweight stills tripod, and I level-up the panoramic head with a chunky ball head underneath it. I have a loose bubble level that just sits on the base of the pano mount. It only takes seconds and it keeps the kit compact yet high precision. I'm coming back to 360VR panos after a gap of quite a few years (I started using 35mm and a 17mm prime, back in the early 1990s, so the negs had first to be scanned-in!), and I was delighted to find that the Laowa 15mm f/2 actually has the pupil point marked on the lens casing. That's really handy. It has to be said that, if you want to do really creative stuff, you need to pay attention to this alignment detail, to within fractions of a millimetre. You can't just tilt your rail down and expect it to work. On the other hand, if you have a 360VR rig (and there are many brands nowadays), you position both rotational and vertical centres on the pupil point, and then your pictures should stitch at pretty much any angle of tilt. I have standardised my kit so that I need to make no adjustments in the field (apart from levelling). I've just finished making a new tilt arm for the pano head, which is exactly the right distance between the Manfrotto QR baseplate (for clipping on the camera) and the pivot. I now have a mirrorless body, and I can check the rotational alignment in seconds by using the camera's rear screen (zoomed in), with the camera looking vertically down through the centre of the pano head. That said, even my new Laowa is not immune to pincushioning, and it vignettes quite severely in the corners (nice for arty architecture stuff but a PITA for panos). Thus it's really important still to use a 50% overlap of images, horizontal and vertical, to ensure the stitching software has the easiest time you can give it. I'm expecting a better time shooting with my new lens, but the old one, a Sigma 12-24 zoom used at 12mm, needed 38 images for a complete sphere to stitch easily. I think the LAowa will get this down to something close to 20. Final thought: I use open source stitching software (Helmut Dersch's Panorama Tools, using the free front end _PTGui_ on Linux). There is one big reason, which is that there are tools built in that can salvage otherwise failed panoramas: Years ago, I crept out of bed at 4AM and went down to a beautiful little harbour on Lake Garda, to do a pano on the stone jetty, just after the mist left the lake. Nobody was about, and it was as still as anything, except the ripples moved the boats in the harbour just enough to put the tops of the masts in slightly different places between shots! I wasn't pleased to discover this back in the UK. It wouldn't automatically stitch at all well (who wants boats with bent masts?). It took a while but using masks (essentially a wiggly stitch, not a straight line), I could work round the problem, and in the final thing you'd never know.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Shot for the long description. Happy that the video has created the discussion

👏🏼👏🏼

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

🙌👍

Of course, if you’re doing a multi row panorama, then you need to find the optical centre horizontally and vertically

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

I responded in another comment that guaranteed someone would mention this 😂 absolutely correct, but that’s not the goal here. The point is that this is simple to use and light, whereas a full pano gimbal is heavier, more complicated to set up and - for the good ones least - significantly more expensive.

It is not the optical sensor that you align with the center of rotation, it is the no parallax point of the lens (sometimes called nodal point).

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

My guess is you misheard me. ‘Optical center’ not sensor. Which is another description for the nodal point.

@garyrowe58

Ай бұрын

​@@emilvonmaltitzor more correctly, rotating at the entrance pupil

@garyrowe58

Ай бұрын

There are two nodal points ...

@constantinosschinas4503

Ай бұрын

@@garyrowe58 yes, it is erroneously called nodal point.

The ‘optical centre of the lens’ is a slight misnomer it’s the nodal ( no-dis-placement) point of the lens.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Fair point. I could have spent some time talking about that. No doubt someone is also going to point out that to get the true centre or nodal point you need a gimbal arm as well. I’ve found that if I talk about nodal points to photography students their eyes glaze over. If I say ‘optical centre’ the light bulb of recognition is very clear. But you are right. The correct term is nodal point.

@nuwanda923

2 ай бұрын

Many sources that write “the rotation axis should pass through the lens nodal point” don't specify whether it is the front or rear nodal point, but either way it is incorrect. To preserve the perspective during rotation, which prevents a displacement of nearby objects relative to the background (parallax), the axis of rotation should pass through the entrance pupil, which is the center of perspective of a lens. No doubt instructions to experimentally find the position of the rotation axis will lead to the correct point, (as this good video gives) it's just that the designation nodal point is wrong. The good news is that, unlike a nodal point, the position of the entrance pupil can be approximately found by visual inspection. When you look into a lens from the front, the entrance pupil is the image of the diaphragm opening.

@garyrowe58

Ай бұрын

​@nuwanda923 lovely to see someone explaining this so clearly ... the word 'nodal' is one of the most misused in photography

I use Lightroom, but I guess it's basically the same thing - feeding the software with the best possible base materal so to speak 😊

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Absolutely the same thing 👍 You’re 100% correct. Just give the software the best possible data with which to work.

Hello, sorry but I think there is an error. The axis of rotation must pass through the pupil of the lens to avoid parallax. In the movement of your example the axis is perpendicular to the ground and the pupil is making a translation.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

And yet it works. I know that the pupil is supposed to be where the aperture blades are but zoom lenses as used here do change where the that point is depending on the optical formulae used. The crazy thing is, how I describe in the video works. Try it and see.

😱😄👍

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

🙌👍

So strange how many pano photographers don't understand the calculation, or observation, of a lenses "perspective center", which is, after all, the point around which the outfit needs to rotate to achieve distortion-free (or distortion-minimized) images. A couple of metre sticks, some string and nails, or one image, with two 'rulers', located at different distances, and some trigonometry.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the idea… might do a more technical video in future.

You could level any tripod by adjusting tripod feet, but it's time consuming.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Absolutely, but as you say it’s extraordinarily time consuming… to the point that you could lose the shot because it takes too long to set up. Once you’ve used a leveling you’ll never know how you worked without one

8:56 only way? I think not.

@emilvonmaltitz

2 ай бұрын

Elaborate?

No, your setup won't make a "Perfect Panos", ONLY nodel panoramic heads can make Perfect Panos.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

Read the description

@dayeah765caoni3

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitzhahaha 😂

@bg1hvc

Ай бұрын

@@emilvonmaltitz With your setup, the pano picture won't be base on lens's optical center. still have parallax witch obviously shows on the sample video. so it's not the "perfect pano". it's must need a clamp like rrs pc clamp to close to shoot "perfect" 1 roll pano.

@petercooney9156

Ай бұрын

Great explanation. Despite the 'expert' dissing comments it works for me and is easily transferrable to multi-row panos, Brenizer technique etc with just a little more kit. Thanks, it has prompted me to get out and do some.

@emilvonmaltitz

Ай бұрын

@@petercooney9156 thanks Peter!