This video encouraged me to buy my first blackpowder pistol, a Pietta 1851 Brass .44 pistol. When Blackie called his Old Johnny Reb, I wanted me a Johnny Reb to grow old with. I also now have a 1860 steel Pietta. I now love blackpowder more than my ARs, AKs, and Glocks. I still love my military surplus rifles but black powder gets my attention a lot more lately. Thanks Blackie for opening another world of shooting. Didn’t realize what I was missing out on all these years.

What a nice cat! Thanks for posting.

Been hearing that old BS story about brass frame stretch perpetuated for decades now. KUDOS To You for finally clearly explaining the actual mechanics of the cylinder loosening up.

Top Drawer video Blackie! I believe your channel is the best black powder channel out there. Thanks again for your work

Ever since I purchased an 1851 Navy Colt with brass frame I've enjoyed shooting it and never heard of this problem. Thanks for explaining what is going on. Marry Christmas to you and your family.

@flmabe1225

5 жыл бұрын

How many rounds have you been shooting trough ur gun?

VERY informative I’m knew at BP so really helped explain so called frame stretching thanks

Best I have EVER heard on this subject! You Sir are a priceless fount of knowledge on Black Powder Revolvers and I have enjoy each video you have done on them. I dont have many but I LOVE my Army San Marco 1847 Colt"s Revolver.

Bp revolver guy AND a cat lover? You are the man blackie. Thank you for teaching a younger generation about BP! You and Mike b have done incredible work

Hi Blackie! I really love your videos about C & B guns, are one ( if not the ) best. I´m actually a newbie in this. I have measured the distance between those "ratchet teeth" as you are mentioning and the frame on 2 different made ( ASM 1860 Army and Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 cal. ), and there is no way those teeth can touch the frame. So it is the cylinder wich is hammering the frame but not the teeth. I dont know if all of them made this way but you can probably figure it out. Thanks for your excellent videos & descriptions. Greetings from Hungary: Joe

Very well thought out. Good job. Merry Christmas!

Always learn something new. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that blackie!!

Had that problem with a 51 Navy, my problem was the wedge was to soft and was being hamered buy firing. Bought a couple of new wedges and they must of been harder, cured the problem. Good video.

Love the content as usual. Excited to hear about the Shaman's Forge gathering coming up.

Excellent video. Clears up a lot of information and questions I had on brass frames!

I love the wear on your revolvers. I'd worry more about your aim with your BP revolvers than most people with a modern gun. From the looks of it I'm pretty sure you know exactly where your bullet is going.

Excellent stuff. Really enjoying your black powder videos.

Excellent advice! Thanks Blackie

I just enjoy hearing him talk.

Good job Blackie, come over to the bp revolver channel on FB and tell these guys the same story. There are not enough of them who watch your channel to hear this wisdom... 🤗🇺🇸❤️

I think you are spot on, Blackie. Thanks for your insight.

@blackoracle69

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for listening

Great video. Informative, entertaining, well produced. Have you heard whether brass framed rifles like some Henrys shoot loose? Thank you and Merry Christmas.

Great video thanks for sharing

" Comment " Hi Blackie, I just found out about your channel bout a month ago. Love it. Anyway my dad and i had gotten kit revolvers from navy arm that look like yours back in the early 80s from Kmart imagine that ,! 60.00 dollar kit brass frame. Round barrel. Well he got one in 44 cal i got one in 36 cal. Well we used to shoot a lot and over. Time my dads started shooting loose, cylinder gap. Well i figured his higher caliber rounds with increasing powder charges were battering the back of the brass frame just as you have said. So I got thickness hardened steel stock and went to work to make a ring to fit in the ratchet area and silver solder ot into place

Excellent analysis

Great video, and pretty cat.

i found this video relevant and also curious cause i not only have a pietta colt navy with a brass frame, but i visited a pawn shop with a nice gun section and they had a selection of old brass framed revolvers there, and i got to inspect a couple and noticed that the cylinder had some slide and room on that rod. large cylinder gaps, and i thought it was because they overpowered their powder loads and deformed the brass frame.

Sleave the cylinder just like and engine block.That is very smart thank you.

Oh, my! A wild adorablesaurus has appeared!

Good video and good explanation of what is actually happening. I just ordered a new 51 Navy yesterday and I almost bought the brass one cuz it was cheaper

@Bucky1836

5 жыл бұрын

get the brass one, i own an 1851 navy brass and its fine,

@Rumblestrip

5 жыл бұрын

I have both. Steel holds up longer, but they both will shoot well

I have had my Brass model guns for about 6 years now, no issues at all, I have the Colt and the Remington, paid less than 150 ea. I love shooting them but a real pain to clean, I never use more than 20/25 triple F , I have seen guys use 30 to 35 Grain , but i want them to last. My 2 sense. Have a Great Holiday Season.

@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305

3 жыл бұрын

he actuallyt wrong on this video.. its not the teeth on the cylinder hammering the frame the teeth rotate in.. the cylinder is actually held back by that raised ring you see on the frame.. There is no way the teeth are hammering themselves into the frame.. if this were the case the cylinder would hand and not rotate, it would cause cause damage the teeth and youd see the teeth marks on the frame. What is happening the cylinder is peening against the raised ring of the frame. the same ring that holds the cylinder from smashing back as the round goes off. They make round ring shims that fit on this to fix the gaps created. However the steel on these guns is very soft.. i have actually knicked and damaged the steel barrel where the wedge is by using a soft brass punch. The brass on these punchs is actual soft brass ment for automotive so they dont damage steel and iron. Yet they damaged the steel on my pietta 1851 BOTH of them, The brass on these guns is not 100% brass i dont think pietta would use a cheap brass not mixed with other metals to make them harder.. but hey the steel is also not hardened.. every one thinks they are but there is no way in hell a brass punch should even nick or scratch hardened steel.. yet it did

@alanrogs3990

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305 I'd guess and say that 98% of all BP shooters won't shoot their revolvers enough to even worry about this issue.

@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305

2 жыл бұрын

@@alanrogs3990 well that depends.. after 100 rounds at 30 grains with large cylinder to barrel gap i saw the imprints of the cylinder on the brass ring on the frame.. Itd probsbly take 1000 shots to really wear it out.. but once i saw that i decided to file down the arbor to pull the barrel closer so i didnt have a huge gap allowing the cylinder to slide foward and slam back when firing. This stopped the imprinting. I shoot ny bp revolvers weekly sometimes 2x a week.. usually 4 cylinders worth out of both my steel and brass 1851.. and now ichabe two 1858 remingtons. So i must be one of the 2%. And youre probably right on the 98% i go to thr inly open range in northern virginia and i never once in 7 months have seen someone shoot bp revolvers. I have a flint lock pistol.. but not 1851 or 1858 reningtons. I usually see a musket or two and maybe a modern muzzleloader you buy in walmart or something. Not many people shoot black lowder in northern va.

@alanrogs3990

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305 My dad bought me a Pietta boxed Colt repro a long time ago when I was around 14 or so (that was over 35 years ago). It came with 100 caps. After I shot all those caps I never shot the gun again and being a kid I didn't clean it well. The outside looks great but the bore is a bit nasty but still has decent rifling. Then about a year ago my local gun store took in a guy's BP collection. He had died but the wife would bring in some of his guns every once in a while. Anyway, I got a Whitney, Spiller and Burr, Remington New Army, Rogers and Spencer and a Pietta Colt 36 sheriffs model. Three of them were $125 and two were $200. So I am getting into BP now. I thought ahead right after the election and bought about 1000 caps and some Pyrodex.

@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305

2 жыл бұрын

@@alanrogs3990 well caps are still in stores.. i just got 1200 from cabelas the other day.. but i wont use fake powder in my guns.. it rusts them quicker.. i stick with pure black powder from scheutzen

Beautiful kitty cat

Brass frames show more effect of chain fires, but most of the damage is to the wedge. frame can cause galvanic corrosion with the main spring this cause cracks in the main spring; Many older brass frames have this a problem. A leather or other dielectric barrier stops this problem. I use 1/32 goat from glove scraps.

Once again, your encyclopedic knowledge of C&B revolvers comes through.

Blackie, my theory is similar to yours except for the cause of the battering. To me, the recoil of black powder pushing the ball out of the cylinder very little compared to the force of the ram shaving lead off the ball. I started shooting brass frames in 1964 and my 1851 navy .36 shaved a very thin ring on all 6 chambers with very little force on the ram. I have two Pietta Confederate brass 44s that do the same. I try to choose the size ball that cuts the thinnest ring. I have friends whose guns cut very thick rings and the force required to do this is noticeably quite extreme. It goes from slight effort with no mark on the ball from the ram to real hard with a deep circular groove pressed into the ball by the ram. I don't use light loads and have shot enough to have replaced worn out hands and hammers but have not had any cylinder gap issues yet. I'm just putting that thought out there for your consideration. Thanks for all your great videos.

@rootsabovebranchesbelow3828

3 жыл бұрын

This makes some good sense, thanks for sharing. What size balls do you use in your brass Pietta 44's? Also, what loads do you use? I just got my brass 44 and want to run 30 grains through it. Thanks for your time in advance!

@randyc5650

3 жыл бұрын

@@rootsabovebranchesbelow3828 Their manual calls for .454 balls. I bought a box of swaged balls that size but it cuts a big ring off and the loading ram deforms the ball and is pretty hard to seat. They actually mic'd from .456 to .458. I use .451s which mic'd .450 to .454 but they went in easily and shaved off a thinner ring. The bores in the cylinder measure .4375 but that was with a plastic vernier caliper. Make sure you put grease over them all. I used to use Crisco but it gets too hot down here and it just melts in the summer. Vaseline stays put hot or cold. The manual calls for up to 15 grains of powder but I don't like to seat the balls that low and, to me, that is just a pipsqueak load. I use 30 grains and seat the ball firmly against the powder below the rim of the cylinder but don't mash on it. I like to use FFFG black powder and if I am out, I will only use Pyrodex Pistol but I'm usually not out. Keep checking for signs of shooting loose like a loose cylinder pin or cracks in the frame and measure the barrel/cylinder gap when cocked now while it's new and check it again every now and then. My friend and I each have two brass framed guns and have had no trouble so far. Have fun.

Very nice information!

Good idea . If you happen to ever do something like that to your brass frame revolver I would like mine fixed like that so I can get more shooting out of it with out worrying about it warring out

Great video blackie. Sounds Like you truly understand these old beautiful machines!

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

thank you..i spent a lot of time with them in shooting and field work

Colt never made a 1851 Navy in a brass frame, and ONLY in .36 cal., NEVER .44. Brass frame Griswold, being .36 cal, would never really be a problem. Good information on the ratchet, hand, and base pin.

I have a new colt 1851 navy snubnosed. it is made of blued steel. will have have this problem eventually or does this only pertain to brass. I think u said it is only for brass but I cant remember, so I wanted to make sure. thanks for a great video. ur channel is wonderful. and chalk full of knowledge. I wish u would write a book or pamphlet for us beginners about cap and ball bp revolvers. or maybe even a monthly newsletter. I would deff pay for that also. or maybe I already have and I just dont know about it. :)

what about a shim washer of hardened steel?

Great explanation. And begs the question to as why the manuf doesn’t add the steel ring to begin with...

@exexpat11

4 жыл бұрын

Someone send those I-Ties this video. Uberti and Pietta might consider inserting a Steel Ring in as it would not be that more expensive.

Thank you for your black powder revolver videos -- I always learn something new and interesting. Merry Christmas.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

merry christmas!...and safe journeys

Ah, so that's what happens! Thanks for explaining, Blackie. Merry Christmas!

Blackie, I can see where you're coming from but I don't think this is the case. What happens upon firing: with the hammer in full cock, the hand spring pushes the cylinder forward against the barrel. When you fire, the cylinder is driven backwards and 'slams' in the frame. In this case your barrel/cyl gap is the space it is allowed to move, meaning with a larger gap the cylinder can accellerate more. The cylinder bears on the ring around the cutout you mentioned, that is why it is there. The cylinder in this case pounds against that ring. The ratchet should not bear on the frame. You have a lot of gunk in the cutout but the ratchet doesn't scrape that fouling off. Why? Because it doesn't touch the frame there, it bears on the ring. The weakest link in the system is where the arbor (base pin) is slotted for the wedge. That is where it stretches.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

ok but if the base pin did move forward..where is the gap at the bottom where the barrel meets the frame..mine is totally worn out with a huge gap and yet that frame and barrel are tight

My friend you are posting virtual clinics on these cb revolvers and I thank you for it. Have you ever witnessed a brass 1858 frame shot loose or spoke with someone you trust enough to tell the accurate truth on the subject? Online there is much talk of fear and lesser quality regarding brass frames but dubious accounts of problems or guys shooting thousands of full power charges.

Great video and Merry Christmas!

Great video! I have a couple of older reproduction revolvers that won't stay in timing. Is there a way to repair them so they safely operate?

That raised ring around the " base pin" abuts against the rear of the cylinder. When properly fitted the cylinder ratchet never contacts the frame. Fitting a new wedge will remove end shake from the cylinder. Also removing metal from the end of the "base pin" will allow the barrel to move rearward and remove end shake in the cylinder.

@jacspring7729

4 жыл бұрын

Chuck, no offense but if there’s no gap at the bottom, I don’t think that would work - there’s no room to move. ?

Good physic lesson.

Pietta is setting up the end mill & configuring the hardened steel insert as we speak…

Good video. On my CVA brass framed .44 it seems the cylinder rides on the raised lip on the frame and not on the sharp teeth. You can see where the cylinder has peened the shape of the cylinder and nipple recesses on the frame. I feel a better solution may be to mill that ridge off the frame and place a steel shim in its place. I can see the same thing going on on yours.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

i am sure if the gunsmith with proper tools set down and looked hard at the problem..a answer would be found

@P61guy61

5 жыл бұрын

BLACKIE THOMAS , I agree. You have great content and my kids and I learn a lot from you. Hopefully I’ll get to meet you sometime. I’m in the west GA area. I haven’t harvested a deer yet this year but I’m using a 12” barreled 1858 Remington and Kaido Ojama’s bullets. If I get lucky, I’ll let you know the results. Merry Christmas Blackie.

Thank you for your contribution to the black powder series you have taught me a lot. I have had to learn on my own because not many peoole know about them.

@blackoracle69

4 жыл бұрын

my pleasure..i have a video coming this week with some questions for my percussion revolver fans

I just subscribed to your channel because you've answered some of my questions about using my 1851 Pietta .44 . I does not look like it was fired before. Is there a way to tell.?? Anyway im looking to your channel for advice, repairs and troubleshooting I'm getting supplies together so hopefully i can shoot it soon.

Makes a lot of sense. I did run across one that did fubar the arbor pin threads as well. The pin fell out in my hand and kept trying to cross thread when I tried putting it back in. I recut the threads and lock tighted the pin in. Some of the head space seemed to come back to normal after. Still wasn't right. Was an old Navy arms 51 Navy. Had some internal problems as well. Needed a new hammer, bolt and trigger spring also. The little fella was deadset on making it work. Highly recommended he buy a new one. Lol wasted $100 on it at a pawn shop. Sad.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

many of those were cheap and made to be blank fired at civil war events..i remember them being sold in magazines and books for 50-75 each..they often just fell to pieces in short order

I've never been told why Pietta and Uberti can't sell a steel frame replacement, just the frame. But I love how that brass on your old gun has aged. It makes it look like the real thing from the 1800's.

@blackoracle69

3 жыл бұрын

thank you

@Theywaswrong

3 жыл бұрын

@@blackoracle69 I finally got all the supplies I need to finally shoot my Pietta 1851 brass frame. I plan on loading 20 grain of Pyrodex P. What helps is that somewhere you mentioned that the cross chamber firing is from the back side, the nipples and ill fitting caps. I don't have anyone in my area of Arkansas that has any experience at all with these revolvers so I have to depend on your videos.

Wait didn’t you do a video about the spacing being affected?

The cylinder actually rides on the raised ring and that's what gets battered. You can see it on his but he didn't even mention it. The old guns were made from bronze gunmetal, today's guns are made from soft brass. If you keep loads under 20 grains a brass frame will last a long time.. Remington's are just as susceptible to battering as Colt's.

@Mikhail-Tkachenko

4 жыл бұрын

Came here to comment, this is correct. It can be seen at 10:08. It's that ring which gets peened by the cylinder. It may be possible for the ratchet teeth to peen too, but that would likely happen after the raised ring is peened.

@tylertapp131

3 жыл бұрын

How much do you think you could shoot a new production 51? Any idea on a round count before you need to worry of it bein shot out?

@naughahyde

3 жыл бұрын

@@tylertapp131 for a brass frame if you keep charges under 20 grains it will last for many years.

@tylertapp131

3 жыл бұрын

@@naughahyde no matter the amount it's used?

@naughahyde

3 жыл бұрын

@@tylertapp131 yes. Keep the charges low and it will last through many years of heavy use.

I like that cat.

@blackoracle69

4 жыл бұрын

yep me too

Video is correct in that the frames do not stretch, but is incorrect in the cause of the cylinder face gap. You can see in your frame that the raised ring on the frame face is dented. That is what stops the cylinder from recoiling backwards. Not the ratchet teeth. You can clearly see the dents in the race (the raised ring) on the rear frame face.

I have one where the arbor threads in the frame have pulled out. I am not saying your wrong. Your explanation makes a lot of sense too, but I removed my arbor and the thread form was so poor and beaten that unscrewing it brought small pieces of brass out with the arbor, not boogered like you'd find from cross threading it but beaten chips like you get off hammer forging it. I ran a thread form GO/NO GO through it and it was loose as a Vegas hooker. Brass threads definitely pull out over time. So I think we've identified two causes of "frame stretching" now.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

there can be many..i have seen 2 steel frames with basepins walking forward..both shot in matches..the threads where they met the frame simply let go..

🐈 we love the Confederate Cat! ❤️

Smart man.

Great video all makes sense😅

Thanks Blackie. Always appreciate and watch the BP and other videos. I’m curious as to how long it takes for these brass frames to stretch and at what loads. Figuring if it takes a long time and lots of firing then it would probably be more cost effective to hang an old one on the wall as decoration and buy a new one than to have an old one fixed. Thanks.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

it has a lot to do with what alloy the frame is made of..what loads ect..usually it hundreds of shots if not thousands..but again if the frame is sort and the loads heavy..like i said with hammer harning the area under the ratched will batter quick and then harden over time..so i see a quick headspace begin then slow then settle..as the area is work hardened and become harder to batter

@duke927

5 жыл бұрын

I was thinking of the Pieta frames mostly. I do not know the quality of the brass or its hardness. Thanks.

very good showing sir i like your idea on this thank you merry chritmas to you and your family

I think your idea would be a good way to restore head space. But then it might start battering the ratchet out of shape and cause different problems down the line. I think if your repair shim also replaced the raised lip that surrounds the ratchet it may increase the bearing surface enough to prevent future battering. Now I just need to find a revolver to test it on.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

i am sure a cure can be found..be it the raised ring..or down in the ratchet well.. in any case the my hope is if a fix is found and enough guns smiths begin doing it the manufactures will start making them that way at the factory to begin with..safe journeys

Beautiful cat.

I love the look of brass but affraid of longevity

Your cat is so beautiful! Name?

👍👍

Hello. Has anyone ever used conversion kit with brass frames. On the 1858 piety’s. I wonder if stainless conversion would work to take pressure with cowboy loads. Thanks

Hi Blackie. Hoping you might be able to suggest a possible solution to a problem. I purchased new, a Richard mason open top conversion revolver. Being brand new, it was definitely not slick like a broken in one. So I decided to put snap caps in and dry fire it a couple hundred times before actually shooting it. Well after a while it bound right up tight. So I took it all apart and broke any sharp edges and polished everything to an inch of its life. I’m talking 5 hours of hand work with 400 grit wet paper. Anyhow after putting all back together at least a dozen times with much more honing etc... it still binds. I know trying to describe something without seeing it is difficult but I’ll try. Once all the parts are back in, and without the cylinder on, it’s more likely than not the hammer will Not pull back. The cylinder stop moves up and down freely, when tested. I believe the hand is somehow binding everything up. Without the cylinder placed on the arbor, the hand seems to be trying to poke out through the gap in the frame, and yet everyone on KZread is able to work the action without a cylinder in place. In Guessing something with the hand went wrong during one of the initial dry firing practices when it bound up. And all internal pieces were since polished up to try to resolve the problem As someone else said, if you made a book I’d buy one. Or buy a collection of notes on all your smithing techniques. Regards, Ken

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

look at the hand while you are cocking with out cyl on board..does the top of the hand hit the top of the little slot it rides in??..if so a bur or the top of the slot needs to be made taller to make room.. also with out the cyl..the bolt rides higher up in the frame since the cyc is not there to stop it in some cases the tails of the bolt will will move up and bind the hammer when it tries to cock ..see if you press down on the bolt stop will it cock better..hope these ides help you safe journeys

On my A.S.M. brass frame the ratchet teeth protrude .130" from the cylinder. The groove is .152" deep. That makes the cylinder ride on the ring face not in the groove face.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

sounds good..mine is so worn..the ring has been battered down and the teeth do touch..what is your cyl barrel gap?..mine is the thickness of a dime after 40yrs..and the ring could be replaced and restore head space / cyl/barrel

@sixshootertexan

5 жыл бұрын

It has a cylinder gap of .005".

Hi again My 1851 colt navy in brass comes today using hogden triple 7 fffg do you have a recommended load for accuracy manual says 12-15 grains some people on here are using 30 there seems to be a correlation between powder charge and accuracy oh it’s in 44 and I plan to use hornaday 454 with 10 caps Thanks

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

in my exp a .44 around 25-30 grains..is usually where it shoots best

Will the reproduction brass framed Remingtons hold up better that the Colt open-top brass framed guns? I have a brass framed Colt I bought in 1977 that hasn't been shot enough to show any wear. I have several Uberti Colt repros in steel that I shoot more often. The shiny brass .44 gets the most admiring comments, even from the people that have heard about the "frame stretch" issue.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

there lies the point..shoot how much?? a brass can last for many yrs..if shot little maybe 50 yrs..but if it is shot as a gum for cowboy matches..with hundreds of rounds a month..it will wear..how fast..no way of knowing

just bought a 1860 army steel frame 44. is 30 grains pyrodex p to hot a load for this firearm. it is a uberty if that matters. thx blackie i have learned alot from you on these black powder pistols.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

that load should be fine..but as always be careful..safe journeys

Hi, about 10:00 and on, i think its the rim itself, thats worn, not inside it, maybe the sylinder also..

could a washer/shim the same ID OD as the guid ring outside where the teath ride on the back strap/frame? Looks to me like the design is for the steel cylinder to push on the brass fram guide spacer ring down the axis of the cilider axile? Spark plug Feeler guages should do for an idea? I have a steel 1858 never had the opertunity to handle others? Thanks again, Got me HOOKED like a BIG OL BASS with my mouth open and eyes rolled back!

@blackoracle69

3 жыл бұрын

thats a idea..might give it a go

Im interested in buying a new 1858 Remington New Model Army. Can you discuss the different finishes? Old Silver, blue, stainless steel. Thanks Blackie.

@exexpat11

4 жыл бұрын

Silver for looks, Blue for historic, Stainless for ease of cleaning. See below. Old Silver. Usually a plain metal that has been engraved with a thin clear coat over it to preserve the metal. Taylor & Co and Traditions have pistols with this type finish. The Clear Coat probably holds up better than Blue. Blue. Is a modern Blue finish like Modern Blued Pistols and Revolvers. Original Bluing on older guns (as Blackie has pointed out) looks more like a Cobalt Blue. It looks nice but is the least resistant to rust and scratching. Stainless. Stainless did not exist historically. Stainless is very resistant to rust, pitting, and scratching. Stainless is more brittle than carbon steels and harder. Much easier to clean. Case Hardening. Case Hardening today is just a surface coating for looks. Old Case Hardening actually hardened the metal and was accomplished by burning bone (introducing more carbon into the metal) as the metal was being prepared. The patterns on the metal were a bi-product of the process. Very resistant to rust and looks nice in both methods New and Old. Nickle. Nickle was first used on Cartridge Single Actions. Old Nickle coated wheelguns used the smooth Nickle in an almost mirror finish unlike the modern Nickle coatings that look like a Nickle Powder Coat with a dull grey finish. Very resistant to rust and a very hard coating. Browning. Think of it as the first anodizing. Bare metal usually with a very thin layer of surface rust and stopped. Bluing is a type of anodizing by chemicals. Browning is bare metal rusted to a point naturally, using a powder residue, or vinegar then using that thin layer to stop the metal from rusting any further by care or preparation. A little less care is needed than Bluing as patina is what you are aiming for to add character to your pistol.

Your analyses is close but your have selected the wrong bearing surface. It is not the face of the groove where the Hand assembly protrude and the ratchet teeth insert, but the small upper ring just to the outside. Your also correct about brass work hardening, but I don't think your hammering diagnoses is correct. The back face of the cylinder runs on the "raised brass" ring. Looking at the back face of the cylinder where the ring rides you will notice that the clearance cuts for the cap nipples protrude into the cylinder face creating and interrupted surface riding on the brass ring. If the brass ring is being forged by the cylinder you will see indentations the shape of the clearance cuts and mushrooming of the top outside edge of the ring, any mushrooming of the inside edge will most likely be removed by the ratchet teeth on the cylinder. Looking at the face of the raised ring on my gun I see some marking from cylinder face but I also see a lot more damage from what looks like dirt getting between the ring face and the cylinder causing pitting and erosion. As this ring face wears the cylinder move way from the barrel and the ratchet teeth move closer to the groove base and possible start eroding that surface. The repair would be A. remove cylinder shaft. B. Remove, by machining, the brass ring and continue to machine to make a groove in the face of the frame, this groove should be same size as the outer and inner diameter of the brass ring. Manufacture a steel ring to insert in the groove for the cylinder to run on. A .001 interference fit between the OD of the steel ring and the ID of the brass groove should hold the replacement ring. Insert ring by heating the gun frame and freezing the steel ring. Loctite retaining compound could also be used. Once install hand dressing may be require to shape the steel insert for hammer clearance and the area where the caps are inserted/fall away and depending on the depth of the groove clearance for the hand. I would recommend the ring be made of soft steel so it will sacrifice to the hardened cylinder and soft steel will not crack. This is no $60 repair. However if you had an antique or family heirloom such a repair it may still be valid.

Blackie, I have a few questions regarding a first purchase of BP revolvers, I see most videos cover pietta, and uberti when it comes to to 1851 navy, what about one of the Colts made in the 1980's manufactured by colt, I can find little info on those, is there a reason for this other than availability? And if I can find a used colt at an acceptable price, that leads me to my next question, What to look for when buying a used BP revolver, condition etc, is there anything to avoid?

@exexpat11

4 жыл бұрын

Those guns were made under contract by Uberti as Colt had long done away with BP pistol manufacturing. Colt might have finished and tuned them to their spec but they were Italian guns as I understand it. They fetch a high price these days if you can find one. Used? I would only look for "Safe Queens" that were fired very little or just buy new.

I HAVE A EURO ARMS REVOLVER OLDER MODEL MADE IN THE 1970 S .I THINK? WOULD LIKE TO GET A CONVERSION CYLINDER TO SHOOT 45 LC OR 45 ACP IN CAN YOU HELP?

I think you have it wrong. The cylinder back bears against the recoil ring on the recoil shield. Compression metal flow from heavy charges and wear causes the recoil ring to thin where the ratchet teeth bottom out on the bottom of the cutout. If one wants to increase the strength of a brass framed revolver they could replace the brass recoil ring with steel. A brass framed revolver will last almost forever if mild loadings are used (20gr in .44). The brass frame revolver has an advantage over the steel framed in that a brass framed revolver can be tuned much slicker than a steel framed revolver.

@cluek9780

2 жыл бұрын

My 1978 Dixie Gun Works Pietta in *steel frame has shot loose, and shows a gap at the base fork of the frame, which is echoed by a gap at the forcing cone up at the cylinder. Probably, as Blackie demonstrates, this is much wider upon firing. In my case, the base (axial) pin cutout for the wedge has elongated about 0.75mm, as has the wedge cutout on the barrel assembly. Both show a battering bow that results in a 1.5mm total gap…. Not good. I’ll have to try beating these back to spec with a punch (work-hardening), or at least replacing the axial pin and beating the barrel to the shorter spec, mindful of the wedge fit. I’ll also add a rear sight, barely dovetailed into the barrel, like an Ansley. I *also agree with ^^ ssb73q on a new brass-framed Pietta ‘51 Navy:: seems the recoil ring is a (flattening goblin), rather than the recess deepening. A hardened steel ring affixed distal to the (milled) brass ring would make these brass frames last a lot longer. Perhaps it could be threaded to the recoil ring- only to, in effect, spread-out the impact.

I see the market has gone crazy over black powder guns right now.

Could you possibly put a circular steel shim maybe.001 between the rear of the cylinder and the brass frame. On the ring just outside of the teeth. If you get your measurements you could probably find one on eBay or a machine shop. Thanks

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

it might work..so long as the teeth of the ratchet could be engaged by the hand

Nice video again Blackie, I always learn something from your videos! Another thought: the loading process probably contributes somewhat. Over thousands of rounds being jammed into the cylinder, that probably adds to that peening of the head space behind the cylinder. Every round gets pushed into the cylinder and the cylinder is pushed hard against the back. I don't think it contributes as much as the forces of shooting but it certainly may be a factor.

Thanks for that.

I did that it was a son of gun , gun works fine , took a whole day

Your observant and very close to the issue. Some points of fact. The original frames of some confederate guns were bronze. Specifically bell metal. It was durable and cast easily. Original colts had malleable iron frames which were also cast. Steel did not come into common use until the late 1870’s and this too was cast. The bronze frame guns were made in the south due to lack of access to iron. Bronze was more expensive. Today the bronze frame guns are of an alloy called gun metal. Still a variety of bronze not brass. Another commenter hit the spot. The recoil bearing surface is the ring that the teeth appears to fit into. This bears on the back of the cylinder to transfer recoil to the frame. Fitting of the frame is the initial problem. The fit is loose allowing the cylinder to batter the recoil ring. Add a shim ring to the cylinder. Head space such as that term applies is restored.

@blackoracle69

3 жыл бұрын

thank for the comment

Great video and good deductive reasoning , it's probably both the teeth digging into the recess and the ring on the frame getting pounded , probably why the Remington develops the similar symptoms even though the cylinder and teeth are different design , your solution could apply for the teeth in the recess and for the ring that gets battered as well , this is a brilliant evaluation by you , cheers big ears

@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305

3 жыл бұрын

he actuallyt wrong on this video.. its not the teeth on the cylinder hammering the frame the teeth rotate in.. the cylinder is actually held back by that raised ring you see on the frame.. There is no way the teeth are hammering themselves into the frame.. if this were the case the cylinder would hand and not rotate, it would cause cause damage the teeth and youd see the teeth marks on the frame. What is happening the cylinder is peening against the raised ring of the frame. the same ring that holds the cylinder from smashing back as the round goes off. They make round ring shims that fit on this to fix the gaps created. However the steel on these guns is very soft.. i have actually knicked and damaged the steel barrel where the wedge is by using a soft brass punch. The brass on these punchs is actual soft brass ment for automotive so they dont damage steel and iron. Yet they damaged the steel on my pietta 1851 BOTH of them, The brass on these guns is not 100% brass i dont think pietta would use a cheap brass not mixed with other metals to make them harder.. but hey the steel is also not hardened.. every one thinks they are but there is no way in hell a brass punch should even nick or scratch hardened steel.. yet it did

@billbearback2591

2 жыл бұрын

Jason j , you have a valid point ,but is it the chicken and the egg , I've definitely noticed the teeth on hard cocking guns rounded over or flattened off , did the support ring on the recoil face pein back to allow the teeth to contact the rear of the inner ring or was it the teeth flattening off that allowed the cylinder to shift back until it peined the outer recoil ring , following blackies observations I started asking others to show me their old brassies, I also noted the sloppy tolerances on even brand new ones where the cylinder was not quite contacting the risen recoil ring so the drive teeth had to flatten first before the recoil ring was printed but your point is quite valid , cheers big ears

Interesting theory, but you're wrong. The teeth don't contact the frame, they're actually pretty far from it. The raised 'ring' around the recess where the teeth sit is what holds the cylinder from moving rearward. If the cylinder is moving back over time it's because of the hammering on that ring shrinking it down. If it were the teeth digging into the frame that were causing it the recess would show 6 sharp dents very quickly as they starting hammering into the brass. If in doubt, measure the depth of the recess, then measure how much the teeth protrude from the cylinder and you'll see that they can't contact. If you measure the height of the ring on a new vs. heavily used gun you'll probably find that the ring is shrinking.

What model was that

Hi Thomas, Great job you doing here. A few words would like to add if that is ok for you. I would consider this as a complex force equation. Barrel and cylinder forces are of the same value and opposite direction. But this is only true when consider centreline of the barrel and cylinder. Cylinder pin and brass frame there is something else there. Everything further apart from the centre line will have to be considered as momentum. Force x radius = momentum. Further apart = bigger momentum. What direction. Barrel will want to twist away from cylinder with rotation point of contact with brass frame. Brass is not good for shear force or stretch but it will be compressed here. The problem is with cylinder pin. Which you have intuitively picked up perfectly. Hammering effect on the brass frame and cylinder contact area is true. You will have to add to your equation not only shear force of the cylinder pin thread but also bending forces on the pin itself. Bending forces due to geometrical distance from the barrel centreline. I am pretty sure I could develop more complex and precise picture of it, but wanted to keep reasonably short. Hope this makes sense for you. Kind regards, Rafał

Talk to Bill Kelly he's in tennessee gunsmith for midst konverters

Hola, gracias a ti, por primera vez he logrado ver con sumo detalle los aspectos de los Colts Dragoons de 1849 y la diferencia de tamaños entre los Colts Dragoons y los Colts Walker... Pero aún falta que yo sepa algo muy pero muy importante! Tanto en los Colts Paterson de 1836-1842, como en los Colts Walker de 1847-1849, como en los s Colts Dragoon de 1849-1851, como en los Colts Pockets de 1849, como en los Colts Navy de 1851-1872, como en los Colts Navy de 1861-1872, etc. todos ellos de percusión, la pregunta es: El eje de giro del tambor está metido a presión a su respaldo del castillo abierto, o están atornillados? Toda vez que como lo dices y explicas en este video, está sometido a altísimas presiones y golpes de martillo a la hora de la explosión de la pólvora de cada disparo..!!! Como está fijado el eje de giro del tambor rotatorio al respaldo del castillo abierto?

Why not just put a thin steel washer in there? I have one of thees brass framed guns never shot it because of this problem

Just saw a guy on KZread bluing a Pietta 1858 brass frame with regular cold blue, and it works. Obviously some iron alloy brass here, because cold blue for steel won’t touch brass. Does nothing at all.

Wouldn't the steel insert eventually pound into the softer metal and leave you where you started? More shots/usage before malfunction, but a steel frame would solve all your problems. Your suggestion, I think you will agree, is a bandaid at best.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

yes..but the average shooter will never shoot enough to wear out a brass frame..but for those in the shooting sports where a few hundred rounds shot in a weekend event..will wear one out..and for then steel is the only way to go

@SquirrelDarling1

4 жыл бұрын

I have an 1851 with brass frame and I don’t shoot it that much to wear it out. The reason I don’t shoot it that much is cleaning. Gotten to the point of hating to clean any gun, I’ve switched to airguns to avoid it.

👍🇺🇸🇺🇸

I would argue that the ratchet should never contact the back of the recess. I believe the raised ring around the recess is the intended bearing surface and it is getting peened down. It seems that a simple steel shim silver soldered on that ring would bring it back into shooting shape. A more desireable fix would be milling the ring flat and then actually deeper (think a prescision hole saw) and a steel "pipe" screwed in to replace the brass ring.

@blackoracle69

5 жыл бұрын

very true..i have wanted to take my old wore out brass frame and work with a machineist who really knew their stuff..i am sure we could find the root cause and find a proper fix

@greywuuf

5 жыл бұрын

@@blackoracle69 I bought a brass framed "parts" gun intending to do just that, but it turned out to be just a busted spring and I rather like it as is .....so have not butchered it up just yet.