I came here hoping to find a new bike I wanted to buy but to be honest, none of these really stuck out to me. We should have a “best of the last 4 years” review. I’d love to see these great reviewers hop on the SB150, Specialized Enduro, Trek, Canyon, Orbea Rallon, Ripmo and other amazing bikes from the past few years all compared against all the competition.

@pietrocampanocruz5071

Жыл бұрын

All of the others have changed less than a year ago, the new strive is gigantic, the slash has frame storage even in alu and the rallon got a frame storage and got quite longer with a shorter seat tube. the sb150 and spz enduro are the ony ones that haven't changed. Ripmo is in V2 aswell

@kevinclark9176

Жыл бұрын

Depends on what you are interested in too. Big brands are kind of boring to me, so almost none of the ones you listed would make for an exciting test to me. The Deviate is pretty cool IMO, but would have loved to see the longer travel siblings of a couple of the high performers from the trail bike test (SCOR & Propain). But, the trail bikes are what I’m more interested in anyways.

@jeremyperkins1890

Жыл бұрын

@@kevinclark9176 I agree and i love the small brands, although I’d expand that well beyond just the newcomers to the stages *(like Scor and Propain) I guess it depends on what you mean by “big brand” specialized is clearly the biggest out there and only $500m in annual revenue and 1500 employees, which is still a fairly small company. They are magnitudes bigger than Orbea, Yeti, Ibis, Canyon and many other brands I mentioned that have won best of test in previous years. These “established brands” are still boutique, but just have a little better branding and more years under their belt in the states. Just cuz you’ve heard of the brand doesn’t mean its not a small shop worth supporting. Even yeti, with all its glamour and prestige, EWS wins and big following still has less than 100 employees. Besides, I’d want to include specialized and trek to I can watch these other small brands beat them :)

@justsayin3600

Жыл бұрын

I'm in the market for an enduro bike. This video didn't really help.

@jeremyperkins1890

Жыл бұрын

@@justsayin3600 I just got the Rallon and have about 300 miles on it. If you want something fast, supportive and balanced, it’s great. Jumps, flow trails are also right in its wheelhouse. I highly recommend the bike if those are traits you like. If you want super plush and bottomless and only want a straight-line plow bike, get a high pivot like that Range. The new Yeti looks interesting too

It's so helpful to hear your favorites for different uses: everyday, race, park. It's funny to see the mega tower be chosen as a top contender AND the one that's put in a corner/tossed in a lake. Trp brakes.... I may upgrade to those from my SRAM Code RS. The Codes fade after long descents and have too much modulation.

Alicia is happy and chatty. The guys might be good at riding but man they put me to sleep lol.

@ChuyR.

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the 3 of them are too serious, they needed Levy there, Alicia took the initiative and the lead.

@lxwvandenberg

Жыл бұрын

@@ChuyR. We need some pink bike editors that have charisma and energy. Mike does. These three putting out low energy vibes, especially together.

@ChuyR.

Жыл бұрын

@@lxwvandenberg nah, there needs to be a balance thats why levy, kaz and alicia work perfectly, 3 levys would be a mess and 3 kaz would be just like this video. Quiet people ride MTB too, you know?

@BurnsRubber

Жыл бұрын

I think the energy level was perfect. Levy’s the best host though.

@deezroastedchestnuts189

Жыл бұрын

All 3 of these people look like they use pronouns and think Men can get pregnant.

I like all the different styles of riding you covered like best/worst/best race for a race/ best for the park. These different angles on the bikes are helpful for viewers.

On balance, when it's all said and done, I would come down on describing it as more of a rectangular table.

me as a commencal fanboy want to add, that the TRP EVO is on the Meta SX Team too. Also I do not share the criticism of the KS LEV Integra dropper. Combined with the Southpaw Remote it works very precise. I even can control the speed and the length of the dropper coming out with an ease. Although I did not have tested a lot of Bikes I would share the value for price comments regarding the commencal meta Team. SRAM GX Group, TRP DH EVO, Damper and fork are all the best of the best from their brands. KS Lev Integra and the DT Swiss wheels are not cheap or bad in quality either. Thank you for your reviews and discussion, keep up the good work.

Agreed on the TRP brakes; love mine. I was getting some high heat and fade on longer descents, but recently upgraded to their 2-piece 203 up front, and it's awesome now. The rear is still sitting at 180 1-piece, and feels just fine.

More great content, thanks! When you talk about value for money, it would be great if you could calculate the RRP on all components (within reason, maybe just the big ticket items?) to see how effective the OEM product managers are being for the consumer. Maybe just a rough'if you built this yourself' price, I think the results would be pretty interesting.

I really appreciate the hard work your testers do to help us know all about these bikes in order to make an informed purchasing decision. There is little opportunity to test these bikes on our own. All your testers present a thorough and intelligent look at the bikes without emotional hype that would be inappropriate in this format. Passionate discourse is better served while telling about a great ride or a favorite trail. Calm and intelligent conversation is better to convey the needed information. A special shout-out about Alicia. I love to see her in your field tests and hope you would utilize her in more types of videos in the future. I enjoy the written articles she writes. She is smart. Articulate. Energetic. A talented rider and writer. She is charming. She has a big, beautiful smile that could warm the coldest heart. A personality that could intrigue a king. A remarkable zest for life and adventure. A down-to-earth aura that makes anyone instantly comfortable in her presence. She possesses small-town charm and great natural beauty. I hope to see more of her in Pinkbike productions in the future.

@jpslayermayor9293

Жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure she is not technically married. You have your opening man, make us all proud and go get the woman of your dreams! I couldn't help myself given your truly excellent mtb themed romantic infatuation transparency - honestly, Alicia checks the boxes for guys that dig that magic combination of athleticism, intelligence, practicality (e.g. Alicia's call-out to the allure of excellent cable routing) coupled with that girl next door good looks. Dammit! Now you've got me doing it!

Great work guys and girls! I still love my Ripmo V2, yes it's more AM blurring the line of Enduro but it fits my riding and can still keep up when things get crazy. A lot of great bikes these days from XC- Enduro! Pink bike is doing some really great work!

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

The Ripmo is an odd bike. Travel and geo says AM, kinematics and the way the bike rides says enduro when things get fast and steep, but trail bike when things get slow and pedally. I also ride a Ripmo, and it's done everything from long, pedally XC days to over 500 miles of bike park laps as my Ripmo is my only bike. I just did 50mi in the bike park with it today and it does great.

Going to pick up my enduro this weekend, keep up the good work.

Great job, team! Very stoked on my alloy Patrol but this makes the carbon one sound sick 🤤

@kahlinkoertner5241

Жыл бұрын

Love my alloy patrol too dude! I bet the carbon rig would be so sick! Especially being a lighter bike!

@ty.jnk16

4 ай бұрын

That’s what you’d think but honestly preferred my alloy one way more🤟🏼

That contra is my favorite out of all the ones yall reviewed. That shit is exotic 🔥

It must be super hard presenting in front of a camera. Great to see Alicia becoming more confident with this, and as always her inputs are very considered and relevant. Also glad that the Spec Enduro was discussed as a comparison/reference. Nice video team.

You should post all of the timed rides from all of the riders, in some of the reviews they mentioned how close some of the times were, we would like to see them, please:-)

@TheAngryDuckman

Жыл бұрын

They talk about how fast these bikes are and yet they don't share the time sheets between the three riders. Confusing.

Mach 6 my favorite enduro bike ... Not that I've ridden a ton, but it fit me best and I still prefer 27.5 ... I like the Nomad and Revel Rail too, but especially at the bike park, the Pivot just feels better than everything else.

@bradholmes4

Жыл бұрын

the nomad is a mx bike now.

@klstrucker930419

Жыл бұрын

Such a shame there was no pivot Firebird in the line up. I just test rode it last weekend and oh man, I was going so fast on this bike that "ready to win ews" isn't an empty slogan anymore. Would be nice to see how it compares to high pivot or fsr bikes.

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

@@klstrucker930419 Ironically the Ripmo has generally been the more competitive bike in EWS, but that may just be Ibis recruiting better riders than Pivot. I bring up the Ripmo as it's also a DW link bike. The other one to mention is Intense, also a DW link bike, and Coudurier won her 2019 EWS title riding for Intense. In general it's the small bikes at the top still in EWS, i.e. Yeti SB150, Rocky Mountain Altitude, Ibis Ripmo, I would add the Canyon Strive, even though it's technically a huge bike Moir sizes way down on the frame.

@CantTalkImRiding

Жыл бұрын

I tested a mach 5, but the cable rattle annoyed me so much I didn't consider it among my top choices. Is the mach 6 loud?

@klstrucker930419

Жыл бұрын

@@CantTalkImRiding the Firebird 29 I tested was the quietest bike I have ever ridden. Same for shuttle sl amongst ebikes.

Hold on… what’s this video about? The best enduro bikes from 2022… no Specialized Enduro, no Canondale Jekyll and most importantly no Orbea Rallon? Come on guys, possible 3 of the best 5 enduro bikes around!!

Who's up at midnight watching this? Haha.

@chairulbahri769

Жыл бұрын

in Indonesia at half past three in the afternoon😀

@collinmcballin

Жыл бұрын

Me... Lol waiting for it to render 2160 💀 hahaha

@arfannnn

Жыл бұрын

In Romania it's 11 int the morning :)

Good information. But why not much about what GT, Trek, Giant offer in the enduro range?

Would love to have you through the Structure Bike in there for comparison. It is so different how it does do vs more standard design bikes.

Alicia, so you like the Deviate bike out of this group the most. Previously you reviewed the Revel Rail 29 and really liked it as well. How would you compare the two?

@barachala

Жыл бұрын

I asked this same question - @pinkbike it's clearly of interest :)

Wishing Alicia a speedy recovery. It's something we're all fearful of happening, regardless of skill level. Hopefully she gets back on the saddle 😔😔

@mickaelht598

Жыл бұрын

decided to rewatch this video and saw her in it and i was like, HOLY SHIT, i wonder how she is doing physically and mentally

@oneofthebikingchannelsever

Жыл бұрын

@@mickaelht598 what happend?

@mickaelht598

Жыл бұрын

@@oneofthebikingchannelsever she fell on a jump and was in a coma for a week or so

forbidden in the next test please !!! also I got the mega a month ago that thing is sick! coil on the rear and carbon hoops she rips single track to park laps !! run xt no chain slap!

Thanks for this. have to say, Audio on this video could be better

I have always enjoyed this series and all presenters seen here but I can't get over the fact that during the roundtables or general table-top discussions of bikes it seems like everyone is needing to talk softly as if they're in a library, muting some charisma I know everyone has in their own right. Food for thought.

@p3dal

Жыл бұрын

Seriously, the dialog is borderline mumbling, and the sound person is amping up microphone gain to compensate, which picks up all sorts of echos and other sounds. Not everything needs to be an over-hyped reaction video, but this feels like the lowest energy video on youtube. These three deserve a coffee.

Can I get some opinions on how much more trp brakes modulate compared to Shimano brakes, and which company you feel makes better brakes

So wondering how much of the source of the critical feedback towards the Intense is the suspension selection. Would a Fox or RS setup be less “active” or maybe just more time to get the Ohlins setup better? Just a question to root cause; is it the suspension/ geo design or is it the Ohlins tune?

@kevinclark9176

Жыл бұрын

Yes, exactly. If they all had the same fork you’d expect the fronts to all perform the same, so it’s really only the rear. And how much of the performance difference or feel is just from shock selection or tune vs the suspension design. Would be nice to not only control the tires but to use the same suspension spec (and drivetrain) on all the bikes. Now, if one suspension design is truly more poppy, you might end up tubing the fork to match, since you want a balanced setup, but they should all have the same brand and level of suspension IMO.

Weight savings on carbon Patrol only seems to be 0.5-1lb vs the alloy depending on spec. Unless I’m missing something?

good talk, interesting points. Thanks PB.

That Reverb was probably faulty. I've had a C1 for 2 years now and it's been perfect. It's only needed a service because the brass keys are coming a little lose but that's a service item.

@BasicBodThor

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, I've had one for the past 8 months and it's been fine

@sm-qw9mj

Жыл бұрын

A lot of them are, though. You cannot say it's just this exact post when it happens a lot. Mine's also saggy. I've stopped caring, I just ride with it anyway.

@titiand

Жыл бұрын

I’ve had two Reverbs and they both suck. One had to go, the other is intermittently spongy and I have to keep adjusting the seat height to make up for it. I’ve had a fox transfer on my pivot for three seasons and have not had a single issue

@troycarpenter3675

Жыл бұрын

I've been using one for a year and a half. Not one issue. Never even touched it.

Step it up Intense!

should've done the trek slash, surprised it's wasn't in here 😔

@curtydbikes

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, but I think it probably didn't make it because it's not brand new and it was in the 2021 round table.

KAZ! Dont know about the intense imitation but original ODI Elite Pro are the absolute shit! best grips ever. The lumps go under your palms

The contra looks like scaffolding ready to fall off

10:38 GOLD right there boys

Sorry to the other guy I haven’t watched him enough but his feed back is great so far too, Cathro is still my favorite though, we speak the same language and we are vertically gifted so tall riders really have a different feel on the bikes.

You guys need a ROUND table before I watch another

Alicia is a good writer. I always like her articles on PB

How about we talk about those new Conti tires!

@Justin-Walsh

Жыл бұрын

Seriously. Not a word so far.

Only 720p? As I watch KZread on the 4k TV, this looks awful. I guess was updated by mistake at lower quality?

Strangely they did not get crazy at all about the fastest Steel Magic Carpet.

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

A little too weird, and made out of unobtanium. those handmade steel bikes are all sold before the first frame is even built.

Which model of the TRP brakes were the ones that really impressed?

@natepaynter1594

Жыл бұрын

The TRP DH-R EVO brake are the top of the line ones

Well done girls and boys.

Thank you for anothe4 excelent field test!

Not gonna lie - I think the hydraulic Rockshox Reverb sucks too. It's on my buddy's Santa Cruz nomad and it's just such a big miss for a pricey bike

@nukerecoil

Жыл бұрын

I had reverb a1 the rebuilt kit is expensive and I was always rebuilding it once to twice a year. I bought a one-up dropper v2 and never looked back best big for the buck.

@Antnerd

Жыл бұрын

@@nukerecoil Yerp. I have the One-Up V2 on my bike too - Rebuild kit is a rag, some oil for the cable, and some grease for the dropper lol

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, bike with a price tag north of 10k and they can't even be bothered to spec an AXS dropper

If you gonna compare them to the Specialized then you have to mention the Rocky Mountain and the Yeti coz they’ve both been around as long, winning races and arguably just as good. The enduro class has plateaued and now it’s just refinement. What a great time to be buying bikes!

@ekolto

Жыл бұрын

Specialized Enduro is a previous winner of this comparison so it makes sense. Also nice to see a not "new this year" bike still being talked about rather than the typical this year's bikes are better than anything before.

@CoderShare

Жыл бұрын

Still the best bike you can buy 2 years later. No cap.

@scrutch666

Жыл бұрын

How comes actually that rocky mountain doesent find so much attention at pinkbike as other brands? Really like my instinct bc version.

@symmetricon1982

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I wonder if my SB150 is still relevant, sure Richie can crush it on it but how does it stack up for the common shredder vs these new bikes?

@rstrakovsky

Жыл бұрын

@@scrutch666 I feel like the current RM Altitude kind of flies under the radar. It's gotten really good reviews, but never really mentioned as a category leader. They're really nice bikes!

Love my Spesh enduro, haven’t seen much I’d want to swap it for.

@bogoradable

Жыл бұрын

Just got the ltd with ohlins. I can’t imagine wanting anything else :)

@geoffgroner3661

Жыл бұрын

You know the enduro is excellent when they mention it as the baseline every year. Some of the newer bikes rival it, but it'd be difficult to say any have truly topped it.

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

@@geoffgroner3661 The only ones that have really come close are the Rocky Mountain Altitude, and probably the Deviate Claymore this year.

@geoffgroner3661

Жыл бұрын

​@@mrvwbug4423 and neither of those have downtube storage.

@jzdyrko

Жыл бұрын

I would have picked up an Enduro but the Seat tube insertion is too shallow for me to get enough drop to get the fit right for me on a S4.

I'd love to know how Alicia feels the Revel Rail 29 stacks up here - she wrote such a great review of it recently, and did an enduro race on it. Alicia?

@mrvwbug4423

Жыл бұрын

Would be interesting to see how a lightweight CBF bike handles. Canfields are incredibly stable descending bikes, the pedaling manners of DW link, but feel more akin to a good horst link on the downs. but Canfields are absolute tanks, where the Revels use the same CBF suspension but in a nice, light carbon package.

Which commencal did you test?

Love the reviews, thank you ! But I wonder why they seem so serious, make a review like this but have some mushrooms prior pls 😂

I just like looking at Alicia ❤ and the bikes are okay too

I wish durability and serviceability is one of the review criteria. "racey, poppy, playful, fun, high energy, good climber, planted downhill" is like the cliche of mtb reviews. Put those in a soundbox

@topspot4834

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. Watch any video, that's all you hear ... I get durability isn't feasible, but I wish they got a little more micro and as you mentioned, discussed serviceability.

@lxwvandenberg

Жыл бұрын

@@topspot4834 Pink bike has been churning out these roundtables that feel like the same video over and over and over

@bananasstuff3344

Жыл бұрын

@@lxwvandenberg 'these guys make a test video every year, makes no sense because its not like there's usually a new bike every year!'

Why haven't you tested the Mullet Peacemaker?

🔥🔥🔥

Are the negative commenters MTB riders or video criticizers. Geez, give it a rest.

All presenters picked the Deviate for racing, but no one even mentioned it for bike park...Handles the rough, but is still lively and maneuverable sounds like a good combo for the park on paper - why the snub?

When Will this be in stock

I wish the Nomad MX 6 was included on this list even though it's almost the same as the Megatower.

@thelittleewokboss9929

Жыл бұрын

Uh it’s not the same and they did the 27.5 last year

@KtunaxaMTB

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the geometry is the same but only it's a mullet. And it's different than last year's model

@ishamw2329

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the front triangles are the same

Would be interesting to hear how the bikes feel compared to previous year winner or some bikes that were reviewed only on the website. There are just so many good bikes, with minimal differences. Hard to pick one.

YEEEET

where Trek Slash? is it not good for you guys?

Can’t do these without Levy.

2023 I still want a Nukeproof Giga but it's sold out :(

Where is Henry Quinney? Is he okay? I missed seeing him in this series.

@Bally46

Жыл бұрын

guess as he is doing the pinkbike dh team stuff he might not be as available

@dade_23

Жыл бұрын

@@Bally46 ahhh I see, now I know where he is at least (never knew that)

I love Alecia

Truly, truly, truly, the best bike is the one that suits you the most! Lots'a love, cheers, & Mabuhay, from tropical Philippines! #RideOn #KeepBiking

"Speaking about the materials: alloy, carbon, steel..." "well the storage possibilities are great"... are you serious??!!!

Still waiting for a Cannondale Jekyll Review... :/

Honestly, my shop has seen so few Reverb issues. But we adamantly instruct our customers to *never* pick up on the seat unless it is all the way topped out. I've personally had one on every single one of my past 12 bikes with no issues.

No Trek?

Alicia’s smile vs Alicia’s laser focus ❤️🥰

For the price of the Santa Cruz, I'd be annoyed the Reverb isn't the AXS version.

@topspot4834

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I saw that on their website ... It's advertised as AXS, but then you read and it's derailleur only. That's kinda like when these manufacturers advertise an X01 build, but its got a 1275 cassette and GX shifter.

Sorry but the slash 9.9 will destroy all them in price, value and rideability

Hey, editors, try watching this with the sound off, it’ll give some insight into the negative comments here…

You should do a dirt jumper review, that would be really sick

@destinhook3826

Жыл бұрын

That’s beyond their skills

I would have liked to see the Specialized Enduro in the mix to see how it stacked up.

So what's the best bike for flow trail or berms. I'm not interested in downhill etc.

@dangerouscookie4790

Жыл бұрын

none of these.

Good ratio having a girl on board girls ride too. And girls are built different so their opinion is hands down for women the one to hear. That being said she gives practical fees back, but kaz is the guru science tech so you need all aspects. And again these bikes in my opinion are bought to modify to your needs so that’s why I just concentrate on frame geo and everything else is what I want on the bike and what feels good and works good. It has to be reliable, I like working on my bikes between rides not on the mt. With no tools using chicken wire to hold it together.

Whats going on with the audio on this one? Alicia sounded like she was talking through a can.

Deviate missed a trick and should have used the new Hope E4s..🇬🇧

@GeorgeFrideric71

Жыл бұрын

Have you tried these out? How would you rate them compared to the older version? I've heard/read that Hope have really upped the power.

@7dcass

Жыл бұрын

@@GeorgeFrideric71 I’ve got the old ones and never had a issue but the new ones are next level I hear.. bike perfect have reviewed..

Really have problems to understand the difference between fav bike vs race bike. Can someone explain? I try to ride every trail as fast as possible. Race or not race doesn’t matter

@TheOtherPlayer

Жыл бұрын

I think the difference is between optimization for comfort vs efficiency.

I think my next bike will be a Deviate

@scottmtb122

Жыл бұрын

I'm looking at this bike too or dreadnought! I'm currently on specialized enduro and love it but think I want HP bike!

@whitest_kyle

3 ай бұрын

@@scottmtb122 I bought the Deviate on sale a few weeks ago lol. So far loving it!

@scottmtb122

3 ай бұрын

That's great news Kyle. I've ended up with a yeti sb160 and it's fantastic! I test rode dreadnought and found it hard pedalling uphill, but it was good on descents! Njoy your new ride!

I still it weird how they have a department store brand in the mix

@ricodvorsky3844

Жыл бұрын

which one

@ianbrown2336

Жыл бұрын

@@ricodvorsky3844 Intense

I think you do a great job in rewieving and i get that you want to ride the best and high speced bikes. But from a paying consumer perspective there are some issues. To put it short, it would be really interesting if you test bikes in the same price range. The highest speced Commencal is half the price of a high speced Santa Cruz for example. A Santa Cruz at 5-6 k is a completely different bike. Just an example, i don't have anything against SC.

@TRISHYXX

Жыл бұрын

I think the important part is the information on the frame geometry and how it feels on their test course. Suspension and specs do play a role in some of the decisions but ultimately those are all parts that you can swap/upgrade on any bike. Parts don't change much year to year but bike geo does. Just my opinion

@steve_troy

Жыл бұрын

They've addressed this numerous times before - they can only test what the manufacturers have available.

@wheeldirty212

Жыл бұрын

@@TRISHYXX sure you can swap anything but for a high spec bike it's cheaper to swap the frame then suspension, wheels and drivetrain. And for the same year it doesn't differ a lot in geo on different bikes. As long as you have the right size, the spec is what makes most of the bike. Maybe controversial but that's my opinion.

Honestly, Pinkbike is such a big brand in the MTB world, but im sure we'll all agree that we need more energy from the hosts.

They need a reviewer with some energy

No mention of Yeti or Rocky Mountain?

Perfect sleeping tablet before bed

Would have liked to see the new Canyon Strive in there

This video needs chapters for easier scanning

Alicia!❤️

Yalls need to meditate before these. Loosen up some of that tension. Laugh a little more. Do something other than be akward 😂. Great content other than that

@GHinWI

Жыл бұрын

Bicycles are very serious business man, you can’t be fooling around /s

I can’t imagine anyone actually cross shopping any of these bikes. They’re all so wildly different in intended use and price.

@jarnold1789

Жыл бұрын

Lol none of them? Cmon man. Sure, no one is cross shopping the Contra and the Patrol, but the other bikes!

can we just have a diagram with each bike and each category for a few seconds?

"our complaining actually worked this time.." (water bottles). you mean GASLIGHTING. No one who doesn't live in a first world country cares if their bike has a bottle cage or not because it will not get used. For all your talk about inclusivity, diversity and development your first world bias is impeccable! bravo!

Reverb sucks. Somebody's gotta say it.

Well then, no reason to get an enduro bike when I have thee enduro bike.

You guys ride way too many bikes

Good job Intense, you re-designed the bike into something nobody likes.

Your round Table bla bla bla bla discussion format and videos are so boring. You should start out with a quick summary and presentation of each of the bike you will be talking about... currently there are none in any of your videos. This makes it hard for any of us viewers in a short and efficient way to figure out what you are talking about. waste time. 2) please put time stamps and discuss at least each bikes in some sort of order.... your back and forth discussion argument and counter argument makes it hard to keep track of the pros and cons of each bike vs the others.... after watching your several of your round table videos, i feel like i am still clueless and wasted my time. maybe it's just me.